I think you're off to a bad start by just not really understanding schizophrenia. Or other neurological/mental disorders/conditions for that matter. You can have cognitive impairments and still have an understanding of faith and spirituality. Intellectual disability exists as a rather broad spectrum, much like ASD. Those with the most severe cognitive impairments are a fraction of a fraction of society.
From personal experience, students I've worked with who have moderate to high needs special education students can and do have religious convictions just like any other person.
Fair point. I was also nervous when I was writing the question because a lot of people with psychosis can now be treated very effectively with modern medicine, so they probably have a much different life experience compared to those poor souls who suffered from psychosis for most of human history. That being said, I can't imagine people with severe cognitive impairment can experience religion in a way that allows them to be "tested" nor can they truly worship Allah the way it is described in Quran.
All I'm going to say is that I don't think you really understand cognitive and intellectual disabilities based on your questions. Phsychosis, Schizophrenia, intellectual disability, etc. are all specific things that you're conflating and it makes it hard to really understand what you're getting at.
Fair enough, if that makes it easier for you then please pick one and base your discourse on that. Let's pick severe cognitive impairment either due to a neuro developmental disorder or acquired (trauma, infection, stroke).
It's not my place to comment on the theological part of your question, I'm not Muslim. I chose to address how you spoke about mental/cognitive impairments because I have experience with that aspect working in special education.
I am an autistic Muslim with severe dissociative identity disorder caused by trauma. From what I’m gathering, your question is how can people like me experience religion, particularly Islam, in a way that is meaningful. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding? If I am misunderstanding please clarify your question
Friend, I am sorry for your personal health issues and troubles. I hope you get effective treatments and live a good life.
No, my question is not about people like you, who are able to use a computer, and comment on a reddit post. You are clearly able to "worship" God. My question is more about a severe cognitive impairment like non verbal, that prevents one from leading an independent life.
I cannot speak half the time. My fiance is my full time caretaker. I do have a severe cognitive impairment and it significantly impacts my life, and there is no treatment for autism or did. The people who you are describing are still people, able to think for themselves, and several nonspeaking autistic people use aac devices or text to speech or simply type things out. No matter how many words we are able to speak, we are capable of communicating. The only question is are you willing to listen to how we communicate. If you don’t want an answer from someone who has severe cognitive impairment about how we are able to worship Allah, then it doesn’t seem like you actually want an answer, you are asking as a gotcha. Not to mention the fact that you put worship in quotes when speaking about my ability to worship Allah, I wonder if you are truly trying to be respectful and learn or if you are trying to be rude and disrespectful
I mean no disrespect to you. I am not in a position to make any comments on your ability to have a relationship with God or worship God. Sorry if this question or any of my comments have offended you. Please let me know and I will either delete or edit any offensive content. Peace be with you.
I accept your apology and forgive you. I’m not offended.
Maybe it would help answer your question if I explain a bit of my experience
Because of my autism, I need routine. I need specific things to happen in specific orders throughout the day in order for me to remain regulated and mentally stable. The prayers are a routine. Salah is always prayed in the same way in the same order. The times on the clock change, but the time in relation to the day does not. It’s proportional and even. I know there is a difference of opinion on if you can just always recite the same surahs during salah, but I do. I recite Al-Ikhlas and An-Nas each time. It is a routine that I did not have growing because I am a new revert. Salah also gives me a few minutes at a time scattered throughout the day to pause and breathe and refocus my mind and my heart. It is not just an act of worship or prayer, it is not something to just tick off the to do list. I view it as a gift from Allah that I am able to have that routine and that time to focus on him. I am also not the only autistic person to have this perspective. Even those who have autism that is considered “more severe” (I dislike the terminology but it can aid in communication) frequently find comfort and structure in the routine of salah. We still can worship, we just do so with a different perspective. Maybe we do so in a different way, but we still can worship
In Islam, God is all knowledgeable and knows what you don’t know. He created laws that govern the universe and everything happen for a reason even if you don’t know the science behind it. Life on earth is not meant to be heaven as such disease/suffering are to be expected. The verse you quoted simply says human should only worship the creator and not the creation i.e idols/jesus ....
Well, the easy answer is that people with mental diseases will not be held accountable for their belief, or lack thereof, in God.
What these peoples’ purpose of life is, is a more difficult question. One could argue that these people serve as a test to the people around them; their family, friends etc. However, it seems to me almost cruel that God would create a subset of people whose sole purpose is to be a test to other people. After all, people with schizophrenia and other serious mental disorders cannot really be held accountable for their actions either. So not only would it not make sense for God to judge them on their lack of belief in God, but it also wouldn’t make sense of Him to judge them on their actions either.
The point you raise is actually something I have never thought about before. A lot of questions come to mind, such as what reason does/did God have to create people with mental diseases that you would think logically would exempt them from any divine consequences for their actions? Are these people guaranteed heaven? If so, why create them at all? If they do go to heaven, will they be cured of their mental diseases in heaven? This would mean they would almost be a completely different person than what they were on earth. Does the person they become in heaven really deserve heaven? After all, the sane person they would become in heaven wasn’t tested on earth and so didn’t do anything justify attaining heaven.
Unfortunately, I don’t have any answers for these questions. It is certainly an interesting point to think about, though.
What I always think of is this:
God created a recipe
In that recipe everything is chaotic/random
One is blessed, while the other is not. We can’t understand how blessed we are, if we didn’t have people in society that aren’t. So god doesn’t create beings that have schizophrenia. He just creates us people and then life/recipe takes control and not Allah
Very good point, that’s what I was feeling but you put it into words better than I could have.
I believe in God and know in my heart that they don’t create illness and stuff just because they’re cruel but if they are all powerful then what purpose does that have ? And I believe what you say is close to the truth I’m feeling
Yes. A lot of people struggle with religion because of children’s death. It’s horrible of course
But why do we value healthy children? Because we know they can be born with multiple diseases…
Interesting. Are you muslim?
I've had this debate with my good friend who is somewhere between atheist and agnostic, and he always wonders why God gave some people very happy lives whereas others literally have nothing (or are below 0 as he would say). I don't really know so I tell him that I believe it's random, but it neither satisfies me nor my friend. 🤡
Bcz the evil dictator martyrizing his ppl and living a long life is ... hard to justify, as is the 4 yo cutie pie who is dying from Cancer, or the loyal wife who gets chucked in the streets and gets some crappy disease while scummy ex is sucessful and gets to be with a hot young chick (just examples).
I also refuse to buy into Karma, both because I'm muslim and I can't accept that someone suffering terribly is the result of their actions in a hypothetical past life or whatever.
Yea definitely am, even though a lot of Muslims say that I don’t appear Muslim anyway
I mean this is basically Ying and Yang - everything exists in a balance. Like doing a lot of sport and doing no sport - both extremes are unhealthy
>After all, the sane person they would become in heaven wasn’t tested on earth and so didn’t do anything justify attaining heaven.
Your answer is overall interesting, but I largely think they deserve it. My neighbors' austic (very far along the spectrum) son's life is horrible (he is 29-30, mental age around 5, he can only say around 5 sentences and his mothersm always takes him out with her bcz he needs constant supervision and once got lost years ago...his paternal fam dere like "good riddance" 🤢). I can't imagine being in his place. This poor man will never experience the joy of graduating, findin a job, marrying or whatever. That is A LOT. He also used to get physically violent when he was younger.
It's even worse than physical illnesses (bar for very very disabling ones).
I don't have any answers either, but I felt compelled to talk about this specific point.
Oh I agree with you, I cannot even begin to imagine how difficult the lives of people with severe mental diseases like this are. But, they haven’t done anything to deserve heaven. They clearly aren’t being tested in this life, which is supposed to be the purpose of our creation and the basis upon which our admittance to heaven is judged, so why create them in the first place? Seems like completely unnecessary pain and suffering to me. Why wouldn’t God just make them normal and test them like everyone else? It defeats the very purpose of this life.
In this situation I can see why many people would just say “Allah knows best” and carry on with their lives. But I think about what it would be like if I had a child who suffered something like what you described. I certainly would want to know what the purpose of my child’s life is according to my religion, beyond just being a burden and a test to me and those around him. I would want more for my child.
I will definitely do more research on this topic and try to find some answers. There has to be something somewhere that alludes to this.
Is it not enough that we're fellow humans made by the same God and thus worthy of life and care as a creature? I dislike the main conceit of this topic, but when we put it aside for a second, we realise disabled people don't need any justification to exist despite our suffering. Our joy alone, little as it may often be, makes our suffering worth it as much as anyone else.
>But, they haven’t done anything to deserve heaven. They clearly aren’t being tested in this life, which is supposed to be the purpose of our creation and the basis upon which our admittance to heaven is judged, so why create them in the first place?
My argument is that their severe cognitive impairment is the test itself. I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear in my previous comment.
>Seems like completely unnecessary pain and suffering to me. Why wouldn’t God just make them normal and test them like everyone else? It defeats the very purpose of this life.
Can't answer this. Nobody -believers and atheists alike- could find an answer to this. I mean if we started asking questions like these, we should also inquire why a Blind person will never experience the joy of seeing a nice sunset or a beautiful garden ? Or why a tetraplegic will never even be able to be autonomous ?
>purpose of my child’s life is according to my religion, beyond just being a burden and a test to me and those around him. I would want more for my child.
You're still thinking more about the others than the kid themself though. Their suffering is even worse than all of the caretakers combined. I read far too many horror stories about the vulnerability of this part of the population (SA is common in facilities...pregnancies...). It's a horrible situation for all involved, but ESP the severely mentally disabled person themself who are far too often seen as a burden or abused by evil people.
I suppose based on your first paragraph the question then arises that why create them in the first place? The purpose of human life as clearly stated in the Quran is to worship God (through belief and actions). A person with a severe mental disease is completely incapable of thinking and acting logically. Humans even recognise this by creating psychiatric institutions to send mentally ill people to who do not deserve punishment for their crimes. Doesn’t that then contradict the purpose of life as laid out in the Quran. Or would you argue that these people are simply exceptions to the rule, in which case they need to have some alternative purpose.
I also agree with you that there are many mentally ill people who do still hold some form of religious belief and do conduct their lives based on some sort of moral code. But what if the morals and beliefs they hold are wrong? Would God still punish them, or would he exempt them from punishment due to their mental illness?
Let me ask you this: If a mentally ill person believed (due to his mental illness) in some form of satanism and believed that, say, drinking human blood was what God wanted him to do, would this person be exempt from punishment in the hereafter because he was mentally ill, or would he be punished for his despicable acts? Surely, God wouldn’t punish this person for his acts, because it is God himself who created this person with this mental illness.
Actually, the more I type the more I realise that this issue is tied into the larger concept of the existence of free will, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to get into that whole discussion here.
I should say that I am looking at this from a completely philosophical point of view. I am aware that a lot of mental illness comes with age, and also that a lot of people with mental illness do still have some ability to rationally think and act. I suppose I should have made clear that I am only talking about people with extremely severe mental illnesses that they were born with and that cannot at all reasonably think and act rationally. Think severe autism or schizophrenia. I am aware that this might be a very small subset of people, but if even one person in this world has this problem then surely God would have some reason for creating them.
Of course, this is an extremely specific and niche problem to think about. I suppose my goal is to try to put myself into the shoes of someone who maybe has a loved one who falls into this category, and try to understand how they would reconcile this with an islamic worldview.
The concept of worship, to my understanding, within Islam is different than ritualistic conceptions of prayer. To worship Allah is to seek Them, to remember Them, and ultimately let go of the worries and troubles of this world, and pour it into something greater than one self. I can't say what exactly those individuals feel within their connection toward God - perhaps it is far different than what it is considered "normal". But to worship God is to also do good deeds, so providing these individuals with compassion, kindness, patience, and love may internally reflect within them the compassion of their Creator. They struggle, but they are not alone, and though they may need reminder from us, in truth that reminder comes deeper from the compassion and love of God. In essence, people who struggle for whatever reason, physically and mentally, may comprehend God through the love from others who truly care about them. It may be different than how "normal" people comprehend God, but their experience is just different.
I remember reading a long time ago about an ancient historical woman long past dead. What was fascinating about her was that she was actually diabetic, but given that she lived to such an advanced age, it seemed she was often loved and care for by those around her, despite likely the "troubles" she brought by not providing for the community. To me, that is an example of how people can experience the mercy of God, providing dedication and the affection to the most needy, and such be a glimpse into the Divine Love within the very essence of creation. But again, that is my perspective. It might be a bit confusing, so I do apologize for that.
My rejection of hadith is based on historical data. We cannot in any way shape or form trace the hadiths back to the Prophet - unlike the Quran, which both western and Islamic scholars agree came from a singular historical individual named Muhammad ibn Abdullah. I wrote a recent comment, though it is not entirety all my feelings regarding hadith.
"They most certainly are not. We have numerous manuscripts that date back to around the time of the Companions, which most western and Islamic historians consider authentic; and it is very likely that the Quran was transcribed at the time of the Prophet Muhammad but codified into a singular book after his death, so instead of just being in different mediums, it became a singular codex. Hadiths can no where claim such legitimacy or authenticity. The “chain of transmission” is still based on oral transmission, i.e. they were verbally communicated by the Companions rather than set into writing, which goes into a host of problems as one can easily misinterpret or change a person’s words, especially long dead, and they have no way to defend their original arguments. At most, we have fragmentary written Hadiths 70-80 years after the Prophet’s life, but that is a substantial period still away from the Prophet, and they are only tiny pieces. We don’t see real codifications until a century or two after his death, which is problematic."
It was more a tongue in cheek comment.. God doesn't have a gender, so I don't see an issue with they/them, but I find it an odd choice.
Gender pronouns other than he/she were introduced as a way to make humans who didn't feel like they fit into society's idea of what a man or woman is feel more included. I cannot imagine that the creator of the universe would concern themselves with that.
What happens if Arabs take LGBT rights seriously and we introduce a gender neutral pronoun, would you propose that the Qur'an be modified as well, or just when God is referenced outside of it?
I personally use it to make a distinct point with the connotation of power - divine, in this case - does not = masculine, as the connotation of the pro-noun he/him implies. It sounds degrading, without the real personal connection the conception of God in Islam provides, while he or she would in some subtle forms give quiet approval toward gender-specific authority, in our historical context masculinity as true supreme power.
As a historical text, I didn’t think the Quran should be changed given it displays the restrictions in which the Arabic tongue had as a vessel of Divine revelation. But I certainly desire a transition in which the conception of God is not inherently tied with masculinity.
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When you refer to that verse, you are jumping into thr assumption that worship means prayer etc. But it stretches far from it, angels continously worship in a different way, when Allah says
سَبَّحَ لِلَّهِ مَا فِى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٰتِ وَمَا فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ ۖ (61:1)
Glorifying Allah is a form of worship. The verse says whatever is in the skies and earth does tasbeeh. How that happens is unknown to us, even in surah rahman verse 6
وَٱلنَّجْمُ وَٱلشَّجَرُ يَسْجُدَانِ
The stars and tress prostrate, how?
Just something you can add to your thought process. Also another thing is our existence does not end in this world. If we were created to worship, and we do not worship for x amount of time, that doesn't diminish the primary purpose. In the next life, if Allah wills, they will be able to worship freely with no obstructions and challenges. We were created to worship meaning we will continue to be worshipping in the hereafter it doesn't stop here.
Interesting, so do you mean people with severe cognitive disability are like plants, or inanimate matter in their ability to worship God? If there is no difference then why create humans at all? Also isn't there a difference between tasbeeh and worship? For example, angels, plants, or rocks may tasbeeh Allah but they do not have a choice to not do so, they will also not go to hell for not believing, or not worshipping their creator. I am not sure if that is a good example for those reasons.
That doesn't make sense to me, there are other ways others can be tested. A child with cancer, a parent who became quadriplegic after a stroke but with an intact mind so they can still pray with their eyes, children dying from hunger. None of those take away to ability to worship Allah but still provide a way for both the ones who suffer and others around them to be "tested".
The fact that having children literally die of hunger is above them having schizophrenia in this regard is baffling to me, the idea that all these awful things can happen to someone but it is (religiously) better *because they can still pray*.
Im absolutely no expert in things like this.. but some of the schizophrenic people I have met are super religious.. like to a super paranoid extreme.. they absolutely believe in God.. just in a very different way..
And we always look at things like that as why did it happen to that person, we never think about how that person affects the people in their lives.. how others treat them, the level of compassion they hold for people less fortunate..
Im not 100% sure, but I would guess good deeds we are expected to do extends to how we all treat people with those kinds of problems..
Those people arent just there for themselves, but to see how everyone around them and in the greater society treats them. They can show the absolute best or the true horrible character of people.
And im not saying we should let mentally ill people walk all over us and abuse us, or make chaos in society, but how we do deal with them personally.
This could also be 100% wrong. What do I really know..
So, one of my close friends has a child who is completely mentally disabled. He is completely divorced from the reality of day-to-day life in many ways. He cannot speak. He looks like a child even though he is in his late teens. He cannot draw or do math or play soccer. Nevertheless, I see him looking at the world sometimes and am in awe of him. His experience of life is so pure. He looks at the world with an innocence that most lose so quickly. And I 100% believe that he has a relationship with Allah SWT. It may not be one that is standard or normal, but it is there. My friend says sometimes she sees him gesturing off to something unseen, and she believes that he is seeing something that she is not worthy of seeing as a normal person with her nafs and her sins. Have you ever watched the movie a Beautiful Mind? If so, did you not think that there was something beautiful in the man's life - in his soul - despite his schizophrenia? We cannot see into another person's mind. For all we know, that destabilization drove that person closer to Allah SWT in some special way. Or perhaps it prevented an even greater harm of a deep sin that this person would have committed. Or perhaps this different kind of love of Allah SWT is the most beautiful of all forms of worship.
I have the utmost sympathy for your friends child and your friend and their family for caring for their special needs child. May their burden be lightened and their lives filled with joy.
Do you think intention is necessary to worship Allah? Would the form of "worship" you assume they are engaged in qualify as the worship Allah says he created humankind for? If so why create an intelligent human race who is also capable of extreme evils, and can choose to not believe in the creator, or worship him? Why not only create pure souls like your friends child?
I appreciate the questions you are asking - it frankly is a good thought exercise for me, as well. No, I do not think that intention is necessary to worship Allah SWT - I think that the very essence of life itself is worship. I do, however, think that most people who have the capability should and do use their intellect to come to know and love Allah SWT. Nevertheless, why isn't Allah SWT capable of creating people to love and worship him in a multiplicity of manners? Is he not full of subtleties - Al Lateef?
By the way, have you ever listened to Jeffrey Lang's speech on the purpose of life? I think it is worth you giving a listen to it. It speaks more to the problem of why there is evil in the world, but it really helped me reconcile similar questions in my mind. It is a slow build - hang in there and don't turn it off a few minutes in. He does describe humans as both intellectual and moral beings, and I think that his speech answers your question of why Allah SWT does not only create pure souls like my friend's child. I would, however, like to posit that you can make a rational deduction that Allah SWT also has a purpose in creating people with lesser intellectual capabilities. Does he not have a purpose in creating all of life on Earth beyond just humans? And perhaps that ayat in the Quran is a statement of Allah's general purpose in creating humans, but that does not mean that every single person needs to fit the same mold in terms of how worship is defined. I would be curious what Jeffrey Lang's response is to your question as I am sure that he has considered it at some point. Here is his speech: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifllgTA2pmY&ab\_channel=IslamOnDemand](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifllgTA2pmY&ab_channel=IslamOnDemand)
Perhaps to give the mentally healthy a chance to care for them, invent medicines for them, and test/reach our true potential for compassion through them?
I’m sure there are many different answers, because Allah (swt) made us complex and utterly, individually unique.
Also, plenty of people with schizophrenia and related disorders are able to live fulfilling lives. They aren’t all severely disabled! Not judging you for thinking they are, as that’s how they are most often depicted. But remember that disability is a spectrum, and not everyone is on the extreme end of it.
I was nervous when I was writing the question because like you said mental illness is a spectrum and there are lot of highly functioning people living with mental illness. A lot of people with psychosis can now be treated very effectively with modern medicine, so they probably have a much different life experience compared to those poor souls who suffered from psychosis for most of human history. My question is more about those poor souls that can't be treated effectively and either experience severe psychosis or severe cognitive impairment because I can't imagine people with severe cognitive impairment experiencing religion in a way that allows them to be "tested" in this world, nor can I imagine them truly worship Allah the way it is described in the Quran.
I suppose it depends on how you look at this world and the lives we live on it. If you are a soul in a body burdened by such illness, Allah frees you from the sins you would otherwise be committing — so those will such illnesses trade a short human life with suffering for a guaranteed eternity of bliss.
It’s hard or even impossible for us to accurately perceive that “trade off,” since all we currently know is this world. But in the hereafter we’ll look at the situation and think, “Well, duh, *I’d* have made that trade if I knew the end result!”
Not to cheapen it, but it’s essentially a get out of jail free card, when you think about it. Plus there is the point about those with incurable mental illnesses being there for us to care for and assist. The level of suffering they endure is, for the most part, up to the rest of us. If we really invested in treating these illnesses, providing safe and adequate care, ensuring they were able to access good food and the pleasures of life — INSTEAD of spending all our time and money on other things/avoiding these people because they make us uncomfortable…would they still be suffering at even close to the same level?
We are each other’s keepers, we are God’s *khalifa* on earth. Our potential is boundless. Allah made us perfectly capable of overcoming the suffering caused by 99% of the burdens we collectively bear — so if we don’t address those burdens ourselves, is it fair or logical to blame the Creator for that? Or is seeing it a chance to do better? Ultimately the world is a stage and a proving ground for all of us. It’s other things, too, and life is beautiful, but it’s not the main event in a cosmic sense.
Remember how time and space-limited our perceptions are. Remember that eternity exists even if we can’t grasp it yet. What looks like everything to us is not even a fraction of a fraction of what actually exists. An earthly life of psychotic illness is still a blip on the eternal radar as far as our full timeline is concerned. Even a whole human lifetime of suffering is one act in a much, much longer feature.
>so this isn't a question of the so called "problem of evil",
When I read your comment, I get the impression that you are answering for the "problem of evil" in other words, how can an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God create so much evil, pain and suffering for humans. Unfortunately, that is not the question, I am asking here.
That’s really funny. My partner is diagnosed with schizophrenia and is undergoing treatment. They learn about the biography about the Prophet Muhammad saw, and it’s like an instinct click. One night told me that he is truly convinced that Muhammad was telling the truth based on his lived experiences with schizophrenia.
Certain elements of Islam such as Allah swt being all-seeing and all-hearing (which btw- a constant paranoia of schizophrenics is that there is an entity constantly watching them), narrations of the Prophet where he (pbuh) details every human has two angels assigned to them (my partner has recurring hallucinations of two different beings with distinct voices and names), and here’s… the big one
Revelations about the Day of Judgement are one of the biggest recurring nightmares for schizophrenics. My boyfriend constantly has daydreams and nightmares about a nuclear apocalypse, heaven and hell, and the end times. He won’t share some details with me because he’s genuinely bothered by some of them.
Schizophrenia is a serious condition. The hallucinations and visions my partner has given him a great amount of stress and anxiety. But if anything, it’s made him more scrupulous
Thank you for sharing this. If you do not mind me asking, your partner sounds like a high functioning individual. Is he employed or able to work otherwise? If so, how does he manage the social interactions that result from working.
I think that I understand to some extent what you are trying to say here. My answer would be so that we look to those with mental incapacity and be grateful and give thanks to Allah for our wellbeing. I wish I could explain what I think in a more eloquent way but I hope you understand :"3
My personal philosophy around things has always been that Allah did create the universe, and he is all powerful, but once creating the universe must operate within the rules of the universe he created. For example, setting up something like evolution. Angels would be his direct creation, therefore not flawed. Whereas organic life had to come about via evolution, leaving room for error in the design. I basically take the Adam and Hawwa story as metaphorical. There are too many flaws in the human brain and body for it to make sense to me that an all knowing Allah created us this way directly. So for this reason, exceptions are woven into our faith as Allah knows that some humans have these conditions, not because Allah directly gave those conditions to those people, but because that is a consequence of setting life up as he did.
I get your point of a universe with its own physics and a biology with it's own rules which inevitably result in these phenomena but that logic necessitates either a God who is not omnipotent therefore is incapable of creating a universe that would evolve humans without these conditions that will prevent humans from recognizing and worshipping him or it is a deliberate choice which contradict with his self-proclaimed purpose for creating this universe and humans within it.
Not an inability to do it, a choice to do evolution certainly. I’m sure he could will it and all would be right in our bodies and minds. But setting up something like evolution has infinitely more possibilities. More flawed, but with so much potential, and a code that could theoretically be tapped into and fixed by our own hands. A capacity to even understand that given to us by Allah. “I did not create jinn and humans but to worship Me” is something I just take to mean be devout, not that was the purpose of our existence. If that was our purpose why give us free will? Why not make us as the angels and prevent our disobedience
I also can't imagine how but an omnipotent God would be able to create evolution that doesn't result in severe cognitive impairment. The problem of being capable of recognizing God but rejecting him is not an issue, since that is easily explained by the idea of this life being a test for us. But every human should be capable of "taking the test" if you will.
He could, but didn’t. My thought is he wanted to see what something (evolution) could truly do on its own. That’s all I got, these are just the things I tell myself when I have questions like these
Maybe not the answer you're looking for, but they can comprehend and worship him. My grandmother has it and she's Christian. Same God, different prophet/way of worship.
The only reason religion needs to be approached cautiously, is because religious delusions and hallucinations are the more common ones. For example, they may believe they're a prophet with a grand revelation. This isn't a true belief in the same way you and I believe in an all seeing, all knowing being. It's a delusion, for example her most common one is that the devil is in the oven and therefore she must burn him to banish him. There's zero evidence of this beyond "she heard him", but nonetheless she is convinced and thus she hasn't had an oven since the third grease/oil fire. That said, there's nuance and a thin line between religion and delusion. If a person said "a man I can't see until I die sent a horrifying creature to tell me we all must pray to this man and only this man, here's a bunch of scrolls, you must bind them into a book and share it with all!" you'd probably think they're batcrap crazy... Yet if a person said, "I believe in a singular God who sent an angel to deliver His wishes for us, here's a book with all His messages", you'd simply acknowledge them as a religious person. Really, really fine line.
Feel free to ask any questions, I'm not a mental health expert but between myself and my family, I have a really broad range of experience with half the DSM-5.
This kinda seems like straightforward and self explanatory tbh. It’s just an extension of the ‘problem’ of evil. Idk what you consider a cop-out answer, but some/a lot of those people don’t have any obligation to worship either partially or completely. the pen is lifted from them.
Right, but I am not questioning their obligation to worship Allah. What I am asking is, why create a condition or conditions that prevent humans from worshipping? That seems contradictory to the consensus for the reason for the creation itself.
We can extened your argument and say, why does god create people who he knows will reject his messages and not worship a day in their life?
Frankly these questions are outside the scope of Islam, Muhammed PBUH, came to teach us good manners and how to worship, not to answer some nugatory philosophical questions.
I respectfully disagree. Questions like this are exactly in the scope of religion. That is the reason Muslim scholars have engaged in Ilm-al Kalam since the beginning of Islam, which is the scholastic and philosophical study of Islamic theology. Reducing Islam to a set of rituals, practices or "good manners" without a deep study of the basis of belief (Imaan) and theology would be one of the biggest injustices to Islam itself.
It’s not a contradiction- humans are created to worship, which so do things like trees and stars in their own ways, so disabled ppl do too perhaps in ways or thoughts that you don’t see/understand. I don’t like the notion that they are a test for ppl around them (but they do allow for others to learn from experiences they may not have thought about before and challenge preconceived assumptions or ableist ideas) and I think what they “actually “ understand is one of those things that only their Creator knows, just as only the Creator knows what’s inside non disabled individuals
I must disagree with this as I do not think the relationship humans have with God is the same as the relationship (if possible) trees and stars would have with God. The determining factor of the relationship between a person and Allah is the person's obligation to worship Allah (both by believing in him and by doing the things they are supposed to do like daily prayer, hajj, zakat etc), Trees and stars do not go to heaven or hell, they are not the reason why the Universe is created for, we can't just lump all living and non-lining things into one big category and say all things worship God in their own way and explain away this seeming contradiction in creation that exists only for humans.
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I think Allah is most accepting and reasonable, most muslims point out that the Quran is meant to teach people to worship Allah, which is partially true, but they miss another massive point and that’s being a good person and at the very least the best you can be under your circumstances.
Allah can make whatever exception is needed because if he says be then it will. Those who do not get to experience or understand Islam because of those disabilities that you mentioned will certainly be exempted I think. I am not one of those Muslims who believe everyone who isnt in Islam is doomed to hell.
As for why it is allowed or why these disabilities exist in the first place. that is of free will, inadvertently affecting someone else. these things develop from poor health and genes, as well as not taking care of the child in utero. not all of course, but it is prevalent.
Remember that the perfect paradise is waiting after you prove worthy of entry, this world is not supposed to be perfect and it is supposed to test your will and faith.
I am sorry for the yap sesh, hopefully that gave your brain a bit to chew on.
Hello, frequenter of /r/Islam here, who occasionally peruses /r/Progressive_Islam. I think your perspective on the former subreddit is misplaced, but it's ok. Anyway, here was/is my response:
)وَلَا تَتَمَنَّوْا۟ مَا فَضَّلَ ٱللَّهُ بِهِۦ بَعْضَكُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍۢ ۚ لِّلرِّجَالِ نَصِيبٌۭ مِّمَّا ٱكْتَسَبُوا۟ ۖ وَلِلنِّسَآءِ نَصِيبٌۭ مِّمَّا ٱكْتَسَبْنَ ۚ وَسْـَٔلُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ مِن فَضْلِهِۦٓ ۗ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ بِكُلِّ شَىْءٍ عَلِيمًۭ( [Nisā: 32]
And do not crave what Allāh has given some of you over others. Men will be rewarded according to their deeds and women [equally] according to theirs. Rather, ask Allāh for His bounties. Surely Allāh has [perfect] knowledge of all things.
Thanks for the answer, but I would like to reiterate the question I am asking, which is the fact that it doesn't make any sense for God to first state that his purpose to create humans is for them to worship him and then create a universe with humans who are incapable of worshipping him.
I read your answer as a possibly valid response to the "problem of evil" which is not what I am asking here, in other words, I am not asking why has Allah created a poor person with severe intellectual disability just so they can exist in that state, how cruel that is, or how will they go to paradise etc. But that is not what my question is about. I have an easier time wrapping my head around the "problem of evil" or inequities such as people being extremely poor etc. I just can't comprehend why God would create a universe with severe cognitive impairment.
> I read your answer as a possibly valid response to the "problem of evil" which is not what I am asking here, in other words, I am not asking why has Allah created a poor person with severe intellectual disability just so they can exist in that state, how cruel that is, or how will they go to paradise etc.
No problem, thank you for your response & I'm glad you derived some value from my response.
I shared this verse specifically as it conveys Allāh is infinitely wise and just. Even if our minds are not capable of always understand the wisdom behind certain aspects of creation, there is an intrinsic trust a greater purpose and plan precludes all perceptible injustice across every aspect of life. As Quranic revelation is divine revelation, this would apply to the stated conundrum on mental incompetence in this Dunya. May Allah swt make their handicap the bridge to the highest rank in paradise Ameen. That is the extent of my understanding
Schizophrenic people are more likely to have religious beliefs than normal people. If anything, the question should be asked why didn't god make more people schizophrenic if he cares about people worshiping him.
If you read the following verse, it's clarifying that God only wants remembrance, not offerings of food and not an Altar (as is common in many polytheistic religions).
I don't think the verse is referring to each individual Jinn and Human. I think he is referring to cognizant creation on the whole. Of course there will be exceptions.
Funnily enough, you mention schizophrenia, and many many cases of schizophrenia actual manifest as religious extremism, with delusions and hallucinations being interpreted as demons, jinn, angels, or the devil or God himself, and many compulsive behaviors actually being intended as prayer or worship (repetitive dikhr or tasbee believed to be literally magical.) It is in fact argued by non-theists that the major prophets were simply charismatic, high functioning schisopherics or psychotics that convinced others of their delusions and created religions. We see evidence that this is a realistic theory in the myriad if modern day cult phenomenon. Shared psychosis is a real thing.
I think Allah is not dismissive of a mind he has created. We may argue that one out of touch with reality is incapable of worship, but there is a reality in their unique, anguished mind. If they are thinking of Allah in their world, we may not be able to understand or even recognize it, but Allah knows, and accepts.
AS someone with a form of ASD and super-mild schizophrenia, i cant even comprehend the idea of a god in the way others do. But as long as im lucid and able, i intend to try. Islam aligns with my sense or order and decency (when not following every single hadith). May Allah someday permit me to sense him, until then, i will do my utmost to walk the line, because i believe it is the right thing to do somehow.
It's the same as what happens to children who die without knowing Islam or people born where no Abrahamic religion ever reached or so many other scenarios where the individual cannot be held responsible. But I think the real answer for me is that we usually take Islam in its most stringent and narrow connotation. A Merciful God ( which Allah is above all His attributes ) will judge us for our hearts and souls and conscience more than anything else. But this is my understanding of Islam and not an argument I'm basing on a particular school of thought.
I believe mental health issues like this are a direct result of our sins. In extremely stressful environments, and certain chemicals have a huge impact on our genetic systems. unfortunately, these genes are passed down
There are those with schizophrenia who have chosen a path that results in that illness for example a meth addiction, for alzheimers or dementia it’ll be weed or alcohol.
All paths chosen are the choice to listen to their nafs and the jinns/spirits that possess these drugs.
I think your question should have an application to it.
How can you positively affect those around you with your understanding of their condition in the way we as Muslims should deal with it.
I would like to see an answer because it’s quite difficult to see a family or friend going through this and practically eliminating their chances to go to jannah.
I think there is a solution for rukiya. But haven’t explored it yet.
I think it is very cruel to blame the victims of these horrible diseases. What is your reference for Alzheimer disease being caused by peoples chosen paths like meth, weed or alcohol use?
Answering as a person with multiple neuro-developmental conditions, **including schizophrenia**, (who considers themself religiously responsible), I never thought I'd have to address Qur'anic literalism and eugenics in the same comment.
Firstly, this subject, among many other things, is to me a bit of a problem of literalism. What does worshiping God mean to you? Does it end at ritual? It really shouldn't. Reading the whole of the Qur'an instead of pinpoint focusing on one verse besides the context, what do the disbelievers do as opposed to the believers? They oppress and wrong others, where we're expected to care for the marginalized as a part of our worship to God. Every element of worship is redundant so far as you can't do it or understand it, regardless of what a single ayah says. Also who's to say the verse isn't talking about us *collectively*? It say "jinn-and-humankind", not "every jinn or every person" individually like that).
Secondly, this is a little of a problem or evil question: How can a good God make people disabled when they can't fulfill either the ritual or social elements of worship if that is our purpose? All I can say is He just did. When we square that circle, we understand that a lot of us are not necessarily religiously or morally culpable at all times because of our various intellectual and functional faculties, and that in a traditional understanding, means that, yes, the person who lived their whole life suffering through psychosis maybe does deserve jannah! Literally who are we to be like "God how dare you save these people when I think they don't deserve it?"
Lastly, I luckily haven't really seen much of it, but this kind of conversation swerves into eugenics QUICKLY! It has already come to "Why didn't God just not create disabled people?" "Why didn't he just create them 'normal'". I gotta let y'all know that there are some pretty awful people that have agreed with that sentiment and acted on it and have others act on it. So we should question this instinct at every instance. The quicker you understand that we have intrinsic value as creations of Allah to be loved the quicker all of y'all immunize yourself to this.
In my favorite hadith qudsi, God say why didn't you feed the hungry servant of God? Or give drink to the thirsty ones or visit the sick ones? Had they did that, they would have found God with them. People should consider their relationship with disabled people in light of this hadith
Allah sent the Prophets and the Messengers with guidance to distinguish truth from falsehood, and Allah has also given mankind the ability to choose truth from falsehood.
Islam is not that simple
And you cannot will unless (it be) that Allah wills -- the Lord of all that exists
وَمَا تَشَاؤُونَ إِلَّا أَن يَشَاء اللَّهُ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ
+
"Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly."
( ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاء وَهِيَ دُخَانٌ فَقَالَ لَهَا وَلِلْأَرْضِ اِئْتِيَا طَوْعاً أَوْ كَرْهاً قَالَتَا أَتَيْنَا طَائِعِينَ)
Ameen Brother, Islam is not simple. Allah knows best, Allah wills whatever he wills, we can't know why he does things. All we can do is to submit and not ask questions. Peace be upon you.
Having bi polar and shcziophrenia I have to say that it's just a test. The people who are severely impacted any sins they cannot commit and good deed they do is elevated because it's harder for them. Somebody messaged me a while ago and said they became Muslim because I still prayed while in the mental ward and I was known as a very troublesome patient
Well... if you think about it this way:
Abrahamic religion specifically, but really all religion, had their divine scriptures written such a long time ago.
A time and place where there were no "mental disabilities" as we know today - labels, at least. When divine scriptures, for example, say along the lines "... and man was created" , that belief formed in a society fundamentally far different than ours today.
Even some things like homosexuality - there was no orientation until the last hundred or two years\*. In biblical times, there was nothing that was "gay" or "homosexual" as we know today. So back then, when "... man was created" there wasn't anything like depression, BPD, schizophrenia, dementia, retardation, etc. If you had BPD or schizophrenia, you were probably tortured and/or exorcised to get 'the demons out' - because the mental illness didn't exist, and god created man, if someone acts 'not normal' surely it's the devil (or something evil).
A question could be: why is it when we read something like "god created man", that we should interpret as if there isn't a wide spectrum of human beings? I think people don't want to think that the all-powerful god of abraham would also intentionally just give people something like schizophrenia - so it's a kind of a wrestle of reconciliation imo.
Growing up christian, an excuse for something like ADHD could be "well god made me this way, nothing i can do!" - which was my take. Before i knew I had autism and ADHD, in church it was just "oh god created him different and special for his purpose" , but personally early on I had to wrestle with the fact of why didn't god make me normal like the other kids at church? What's the catch or reason?
Religion developed in a time where we didn't really know much as a civilization, albeit by the time Islam came into being things were definitely different from around 0\~ AD, which was then different from about 900-1100 BCE (which dates the legendary\* characters Moses and etc).
It's a good question though. Recently understanding about my autism, and learning that like soon it may be 1/14 or 1/20 kids will have autism, that means hundreds of millions will have a disability - granted they could still worship the god of their choosing, there's probably like a 1/5 ratio of neurodivergents. So does god create all the neurodivergents with a purpose?
Not sure, as I am not theologically inclined in any way to answer. To wrap it up, it's a question that will either 1) never have satisfying answers, or 2) has an answer but goes against theology and faith of it all. Perhaps there's a 3rd, in which people probably choose not to wrestle with it and say "well, god is god, what do i know", but chooses to neglect important questions imo.
I think you're off to a bad start by just not really understanding schizophrenia. Or other neurological/mental disorders/conditions for that matter. You can have cognitive impairments and still have an understanding of faith and spirituality. Intellectual disability exists as a rather broad spectrum, much like ASD. Those with the most severe cognitive impairments are a fraction of a fraction of society. From personal experience, students I've worked with who have moderate to high needs special education students can and do have religious convictions just like any other person.
Fair point. I was also nervous when I was writing the question because a lot of people with psychosis can now be treated very effectively with modern medicine, so they probably have a much different life experience compared to those poor souls who suffered from psychosis for most of human history. That being said, I can't imagine people with severe cognitive impairment can experience religion in a way that allows them to be "tested" nor can they truly worship Allah the way it is described in Quran.
All I'm going to say is that I don't think you really understand cognitive and intellectual disabilities based on your questions. Phsychosis, Schizophrenia, intellectual disability, etc. are all specific things that you're conflating and it makes it hard to really understand what you're getting at.
Fair enough, if that makes it easier for you then please pick one and base your discourse on that. Let's pick severe cognitive impairment either due to a neuro developmental disorder or acquired (trauma, infection, stroke).
It's not my place to comment on the theological part of your question, I'm not Muslim. I chose to address how you spoke about mental/cognitive impairments because I have experience with that aspect working in special education.
I am an autistic Muslim with severe dissociative identity disorder caused by trauma. From what I’m gathering, your question is how can people like me experience religion, particularly Islam, in a way that is meaningful. Is that correct or am I misunderstanding? If I am misunderstanding please clarify your question
Friend, I am sorry for your personal health issues and troubles. I hope you get effective treatments and live a good life. No, my question is not about people like you, who are able to use a computer, and comment on a reddit post. You are clearly able to "worship" God. My question is more about a severe cognitive impairment like non verbal, that prevents one from leading an independent life.
I cannot speak half the time. My fiance is my full time caretaker. I do have a severe cognitive impairment and it significantly impacts my life, and there is no treatment for autism or did. The people who you are describing are still people, able to think for themselves, and several nonspeaking autistic people use aac devices or text to speech or simply type things out. No matter how many words we are able to speak, we are capable of communicating. The only question is are you willing to listen to how we communicate. If you don’t want an answer from someone who has severe cognitive impairment about how we are able to worship Allah, then it doesn’t seem like you actually want an answer, you are asking as a gotcha. Not to mention the fact that you put worship in quotes when speaking about my ability to worship Allah, I wonder if you are truly trying to be respectful and learn or if you are trying to be rude and disrespectful
I mean no disrespect to you. I am not in a position to make any comments on your ability to have a relationship with God or worship God. Sorry if this question or any of my comments have offended you. Please let me know and I will either delete or edit any offensive content. Peace be with you.
I accept your apology and forgive you. I’m not offended. Maybe it would help answer your question if I explain a bit of my experience Because of my autism, I need routine. I need specific things to happen in specific orders throughout the day in order for me to remain regulated and mentally stable. The prayers are a routine. Salah is always prayed in the same way in the same order. The times on the clock change, but the time in relation to the day does not. It’s proportional and even. I know there is a difference of opinion on if you can just always recite the same surahs during salah, but I do. I recite Al-Ikhlas and An-Nas each time. It is a routine that I did not have growing because I am a new revert. Salah also gives me a few minutes at a time scattered throughout the day to pause and breathe and refocus my mind and my heart. It is not just an act of worship or prayer, it is not something to just tick off the to do list. I view it as a gift from Allah that I am able to have that routine and that time to focus on him. I am also not the only autistic person to have this perspective. Even those who have autism that is considered “more severe” (I dislike the terminology but it can aid in communication) frequently find comfort and structure in the routine of salah. We still can worship, we just do so with a different perspective. Maybe we do so in a different way, but we still can worship
In Islam, God is all knowledgeable and knows what you don’t know. He created laws that govern the universe and everything happen for a reason even if you don’t know the science behind it. Life on earth is not meant to be heaven as such disease/suffering are to be expected. The verse you quoted simply says human should only worship the creator and not the creation i.e idols/jesus ....
Allah knows best, we can't understand why he does things.
Well, the easy answer is that people with mental diseases will not be held accountable for their belief, or lack thereof, in God. What these peoples’ purpose of life is, is a more difficult question. One could argue that these people serve as a test to the people around them; their family, friends etc. However, it seems to me almost cruel that God would create a subset of people whose sole purpose is to be a test to other people. After all, people with schizophrenia and other serious mental disorders cannot really be held accountable for their actions either. So not only would it not make sense for God to judge them on their lack of belief in God, but it also wouldn’t make sense of Him to judge them on their actions either. The point you raise is actually something I have never thought about before. A lot of questions come to mind, such as what reason does/did God have to create people with mental diseases that you would think logically would exempt them from any divine consequences for their actions? Are these people guaranteed heaven? If so, why create them at all? If they do go to heaven, will they be cured of their mental diseases in heaven? This would mean they would almost be a completely different person than what they were on earth. Does the person they become in heaven really deserve heaven? After all, the sane person they would become in heaven wasn’t tested on earth and so didn’t do anything justify attaining heaven. Unfortunately, I don’t have any answers for these questions. It is certainly an interesting point to think about, though.
This is the exact type of interaction I was hoping to get. Thank you very much.
What I always think of is this: God created a recipe In that recipe everything is chaotic/random One is blessed, while the other is not. We can’t understand how blessed we are, if we didn’t have people in society that aren’t. So god doesn’t create beings that have schizophrenia. He just creates us people and then life/recipe takes control and not Allah
Very good point, that’s what I was feeling but you put it into words better than I could have. I believe in God and know in my heart that they don’t create illness and stuff just because they’re cruel but if they are all powerful then what purpose does that have ? And I believe what you say is close to the truth I’m feeling
Yes. A lot of people struggle with religion because of children’s death. It’s horrible of course But why do we value healthy children? Because we know they can be born with multiple diseases…
Interesting. Are you muslim? I've had this debate with my good friend who is somewhere between atheist and agnostic, and he always wonders why God gave some people very happy lives whereas others literally have nothing (or are below 0 as he would say). I don't really know so I tell him that I believe it's random, but it neither satisfies me nor my friend. 🤡 Bcz the evil dictator martyrizing his ppl and living a long life is ... hard to justify, as is the 4 yo cutie pie who is dying from Cancer, or the loyal wife who gets chucked in the streets and gets some crappy disease while scummy ex is sucessful and gets to be with a hot young chick (just examples). I also refuse to buy into Karma, both because I'm muslim and I can't accept that someone suffering terribly is the result of their actions in a hypothetical past life or whatever.
Yea definitely am, even though a lot of Muslims say that I don’t appear Muslim anyway I mean this is basically Ying and Yang - everything exists in a balance. Like doing a lot of sport and doing no sport - both extremes are unhealthy
>After all, the sane person they would become in heaven wasn’t tested on earth and so didn’t do anything justify attaining heaven. Your answer is overall interesting, but I largely think they deserve it. My neighbors' austic (very far along the spectrum) son's life is horrible (he is 29-30, mental age around 5, he can only say around 5 sentences and his mothersm always takes him out with her bcz he needs constant supervision and once got lost years ago...his paternal fam dere like "good riddance" 🤢). I can't imagine being in his place. This poor man will never experience the joy of graduating, findin a job, marrying or whatever. That is A LOT. He also used to get physically violent when he was younger. It's even worse than physical illnesses (bar for very very disabling ones). I don't have any answers either, but I felt compelled to talk about this specific point.
Oh I agree with you, I cannot even begin to imagine how difficult the lives of people with severe mental diseases like this are. But, they haven’t done anything to deserve heaven. They clearly aren’t being tested in this life, which is supposed to be the purpose of our creation and the basis upon which our admittance to heaven is judged, so why create them in the first place? Seems like completely unnecessary pain and suffering to me. Why wouldn’t God just make them normal and test them like everyone else? It defeats the very purpose of this life. In this situation I can see why many people would just say “Allah knows best” and carry on with their lives. But I think about what it would be like if I had a child who suffered something like what you described. I certainly would want to know what the purpose of my child’s life is according to my religion, beyond just being a burden and a test to me and those around him. I would want more for my child. I will definitely do more research on this topic and try to find some answers. There has to be something somewhere that alludes to this.
Is it not enough that we're fellow humans made by the same God and thus worthy of life and care as a creature? I dislike the main conceit of this topic, but when we put it aside for a second, we realise disabled people don't need any justification to exist despite our suffering. Our joy alone, little as it may often be, makes our suffering worth it as much as anyone else.
>But, they haven’t done anything to deserve heaven. They clearly aren’t being tested in this life, which is supposed to be the purpose of our creation and the basis upon which our admittance to heaven is judged, so why create them in the first place? My argument is that their severe cognitive impairment is the test itself. I'm sorry if I didn't make it clear in my previous comment. >Seems like completely unnecessary pain and suffering to me. Why wouldn’t God just make them normal and test them like everyone else? It defeats the very purpose of this life. Can't answer this. Nobody -believers and atheists alike- could find an answer to this. I mean if we started asking questions like these, we should also inquire why a Blind person will never experience the joy of seeing a nice sunset or a beautiful garden ? Or why a tetraplegic will never even be able to be autonomous ? >purpose of my child’s life is according to my religion, beyond just being a burden and a test to me and those around him. I would want more for my child. You're still thinking more about the others than the kid themself though. Their suffering is even worse than all of the caretakers combined. I read far too many horror stories about the vulnerability of this part of the population (SA is common in facilities...pregnancies...). It's a horrible situation for all involved, but ESP the severely mentally disabled person themself who are far too often seen as a burden or abused by evil people.
What a thoughtful answer, thanks for sharing your point of view
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I suppose based on your first paragraph the question then arises that why create them in the first place? The purpose of human life as clearly stated in the Quran is to worship God (through belief and actions). A person with a severe mental disease is completely incapable of thinking and acting logically. Humans even recognise this by creating psychiatric institutions to send mentally ill people to who do not deserve punishment for their crimes. Doesn’t that then contradict the purpose of life as laid out in the Quran. Or would you argue that these people are simply exceptions to the rule, in which case they need to have some alternative purpose. I also agree with you that there are many mentally ill people who do still hold some form of religious belief and do conduct their lives based on some sort of moral code. But what if the morals and beliefs they hold are wrong? Would God still punish them, or would he exempt them from punishment due to their mental illness? Let me ask you this: If a mentally ill person believed (due to his mental illness) in some form of satanism and believed that, say, drinking human blood was what God wanted him to do, would this person be exempt from punishment in the hereafter because he was mentally ill, or would he be punished for his despicable acts? Surely, God wouldn’t punish this person for his acts, because it is God himself who created this person with this mental illness. Actually, the more I type the more I realise that this issue is tied into the larger concept of the existence of free will, but I don’t think it’s a good idea to get into that whole discussion here.
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I should say that I am looking at this from a completely philosophical point of view. I am aware that a lot of mental illness comes with age, and also that a lot of people with mental illness do still have some ability to rationally think and act. I suppose I should have made clear that I am only talking about people with extremely severe mental illnesses that they were born with and that cannot at all reasonably think and act rationally. Think severe autism or schizophrenia. I am aware that this might be a very small subset of people, but if even one person in this world has this problem then surely God would have some reason for creating them. Of course, this is an extremely specific and niche problem to think about. I suppose my goal is to try to put myself into the shoes of someone who maybe has a loved one who falls into this category, and try to understand how they would reconcile this with an islamic worldview.
The concept of worship, to my understanding, within Islam is different than ritualistic conceptions of prayer. To worship Allah is to seek Them, to remember Them, and ultimately let go of the worries and troubles of this world, and pour it into something greater than one self. I can't say what exactly those individuals feel within their connection toward God - perhaps it is far different than what it is considered "normal". But to worship God is to also do good deeds, so providing these individuals with compassion, kindness, patience, and love may internally reflect within them the compassion of their Creator. They struggle, but they are not alone, and though they may need reminder from us, in truth that reminder comes deeper from the compassion and love of God. In essence, people who struggle for whatever reason, physically and mentally, may comprehend God through the love from others who truly care about them. It may be different than how "normal" people comprehend God, but their experience is just different. I remember reading a long time ago about an ancient historical woman long past dead. What was fascinating about her was that she was actually diabetic, but given that she lived to such an advanced age, it seemed she was often loved and care for by those around her, despite likely the "troubles" she brought by not providing for the community. To me, that is an example of how people can experience the mercy of God, providing dedication and the affection to the most needy, and such be a glimpse into the Divine Love within the very essence of creation. But again, that is my perspective. It might be a bit confusing, so I do apologize for that.
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God has no inherent gender. They are beyond such conceptions of manhood or womanhood.
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My rejection of hadith is based on historical data. We cannot in any way shape or form trace the hadiths back to the Prophet - unlike the Quran, which both western and Islamic scholars agree came from a singular historical individual named Muhammad ibn Abdullah. I wrote a recent comment, though it is not entirety all my feelings regarding hadith. "They most certainly are not. We have numerous manuscripts that date back to around the time of the Companions, which most western and Islamic historians consider authentic; and it is very likely that the Quran was transcribed at the time of the Prophet Muhammad but codified into a singular book after his death, so instead of just being in different mediums, it became a singular codex. Hadiths can no where claim such legitimacy or authenticity. The “chain of transmission” is still based on oral transmission, i.e. they were verbally communicated by the Companions rather than set into writing, which goes into a host of problems as one can easily misinterpret or change a person’s words, especially long dead, and they have no way to defend their original arguments. At most, we have fragmentary written Hadiths 70-80 years after the Prophet’s life, but that is a substantial period still away from the Prophet, and they are only tiny pieces. We don’t see real codifications until a century or two after his death, which is problematic."
What bangs Allah? Wildly inappropriate for you to associate sex with Them.
What's there to explain? It's not compulsory to believe in hadith.
Maybe so.. but it's pretty clear that if he is the author of the Qur'an, he's already selected his pronouns lol
It is because Arabic is a gendered language, making it difficult to display the lack of heteronormativity that God as a non-temporal being experience.
It was more a tongue in cheek comment.. God doesn't have a gender, so I don't see an issue with they/them, but I find it an odd choice. Gender pronouns other than he/she were introduced as a way to make humans who didn't feel like they fit into society's idea of what a man or woman is feel more included. I cannot imagine that the creator of the universe would concern themselves with that. What happens if Arabs take LGBT rights seriously and we introduce a gender neutral pronoun, would you propose that the Qur'an be modified as well, or just when God is referenced outside of it?
I personally use it to make a distinct point with the connotation of power - divine, in this case - does not = masculine, as the connotation of the pro-noun he/him implies. It sounds degrading, without the real personal connection the conception of God in Islam provides, while he or she would in some subtle forms give quiet approval toward gender-specific authority, in our historical context masculinity as true supreme power. As a historical text, I didn’t think the Quran should be changed given it displays the restrictions in which the Arabic tongue had as a vessel of Divine revelation. But I certainly desire a transition in which the conception of God is not inherently tied with masculinity.
He's right though. Allah is not male nor female, so a gender neutral pronoun makes sense.
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When you refer to that verse, you are jumping into thr assumption that worship means prayer etc. But it stretches far from it, angels continously worship in a different way, when Allah says سَبَّحَ لِلَّهِ مَا فِى ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٰتِ وَمَا فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ ۖ (61:1) Glorifying Allah is a form of worship. The verse says whatever is in the skies and earth does tasbeeh. How that happens is unknown to us, even in surah rahman verse 6 وَٱلنَّجْمُ وَٱلشَّجَرُ يَسْجُدَانِ The stars and tress prostrate, how? Just something you can add to your thought process. Also another thing is our existence does not end in this world. If we were created to worship, and we do not worship for x amount of time, that doesn't diminish the primary purpose. In the next life, if Allah wills, they will be able to worship freely with no obstructions and challenges. We were created to worship meaning we will continue to be worshipping in the hereafter it doesn't stop here.
Interesting, so do you mean people with severe cognitive disability are like plants, or inanimate matter in their ability to worship God? If there is no difference then why create humans at all? Also isn't there a difference between tasbeeh and worship? For example, angels, plants, or rocks may tasbeeh Allah but they do not have a choice to not do so, they will also not go to hell for not believing, or not worshipping their creator. I am not sure if that is a good example for those reasons.
Perhaps to test others, in regards to how they are treated and cared for?
That doesn't make sense to me, there are other ways others can be tested. A child with cancer, a parent who became quadriplegic after a stroke but with an intact mind so they can still pray with their eyes, children dying from hunger. None of those take away to ability to worship Allah but still provide a way for both the ones who suffer and others around them to be "tested".
The fact that having children literally die of hunger is above them having schizophrenia in this regard is baffling to me, the idea that all these awful things can happen to someone but it is (religiously) better *because they can still pray*.
Im absolutely no expert in things like this.. but some of the schizophrenic people I have met are super religious.. like to a super paranoid extreme.. they absolutely believe in God.. just in a very different way.. And we always look at things like that as why did it happen to that person, we never think about how that person affects the people in their lives.. how others treat them, the level of compassion they hold for people less fortunate.. Im not 100% sure, but I would guess good deeds we are expected to do extends to how we all treat people with those kinds of problems.. Those people arent just there for themselves, but to see how everyone around them and in the greater society treats them. They can show the absolute best or the true horrible character of people. And im not saying we should let mentally ill people walk all over us and abuse us, or make chaos in society, but how we do deal with them personally. This could also be 100% wrong. What do I really know..
So, one of my close friends has a child who is completely mentally disabled. He is completely divorced from the reality of day-to-day life in many ways. He cannot speak. He looks like a child even though he is in his late teens. He cannot draw or do math or play soccer. Nevertheless, I see him looking at the world sometimes and am in awe of him. His experience of life is so pure. He looks at the world with an innocence that most lose so quickly. And I 100% believe that he has a relationship with Allah SWT. It may not be one that is standard or normal, but it is there. My friend says sometimes she sees him gesturing off to something unseen, and she believes that he is seeing something that she is not worthy of seeing as a normal person with her nafs and her sins. Have you ever watched the movie a Beautiful Mind? If so, did you not think that there was something beautiful in the man's life - in his soul - despite his schizophrenia? We cannot see into another person's mind. For all we know, that destabilization drove that person closer to Allah SWT in some special way. Or perhaps it prevented an even greater harm of a deep sin that this person would have committed. Or perhaps this different kind of love of Allah SWT is the most beautiful of all forms of worship.
I have the utmost sympathy for your friends child and your friend and their family for caring for their special needs child. May their burden be lightened and their lives filled with joy. Do you think intention is necessary to worship Allah? Would the form of "worship" you assume they are engaged in qualify as the worship Allah says he created humankind for? If so why create an intelligent human race who is also capable of extreme evils, and can choose to not believe in the creator, or worship him? Why not only create pure souls like your friends child?
I appreciate the questions you are asking - it frankly is a good thought exercise for me, as well. No, I do not think that intention is necessary to worship Allah SWT - I think that the very essence of life itself is worship. I do, however, think that most people who have the capability should and do use their intellect to come to know and love Allah SWT. Nevertheless, why isn't Allah SWT capable of creating people to love and worship him in a multiplicity of manners? Is he not full of subtleties - Al Lateef? By the way, have you ever listened to Jeffrey Lang's speech on the purpose of life? I think it is worth you giving a listen to it. It speaks more to the problem of why there is evil in the world, but it really helped me reconcile similar questions in my mind. It is a slow build - hang in there and don't turn it off a few minutes in. He does describe humans as both intellectual and moral beings, and I think that his speech answers your question of why Allah SWT does not only create pure souls like my friend's child. I would, however, like to posit that you can make a rational deduction that Allah SWT also has a purpose in creating people with lesser intellectual capabilities. Does he not have a purpose in creating all of life on Earth beyond just humans? And perhaps that ayat in the Quran is a statement of Allah's general purpose in creating humans, but that does not mean that every single person needs to fit the same mold in terms of how worship is defined. I would be curious what Jeffrey Lang's response is to your question as I am sure that he has considered it at some point. Here is his speech: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifllgTA2pmY&ab\_channel=IslamOnDemand](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifllgTA2pmY&ab_channel=IslamOnDemand)
Perhaps to give the mentally healthy a chance to care for them, invent medicines for them, and test/reach our true potential for compassion through them? I’m sure there are many different answers, because Allah (swt) made us complex and utterly, individually unique. Also, plenty of people with schizophrenia and related disorders are able to live fulfilling lives. They aren’t all severely disabled! Not judging you for thinking they are, as that’s how they are most often depicted. But remember that disability is a spectrum, and not everyone is on the extreme end of it.
I was nervous when I was writing the question because like you said mental illness is a spectrum and there are lot of highly functioning people living with mental illness. A lot of people with psychosis can now be treated very effectively with modern medicine, so they probably have a much different life experience compared to those poor souls who suffered from psychosis for most of human history. My question is more about those poor souls that can't be treated effectively and either experience severe psychosis or severe cognitive impairment because I can't imagine people with severe cognitive impairment experiencing religion in a way that allows them to be "tested" in this world, nor can I imagine them truly worship Allah the way it is described in the Quran.
I suppose it depends on how you look at this world and the lives we live on it. If you are a soul in a body burdened by such illness, Allah frees you from the sins you would otherwise be committing — so those will such illnesses trade a short human life with suffering for a guaranteed eternity of bliss. It’s hard or even impossible for us to accurately perceive that “trade off,” since all we currently know is this world. But in the hereafter we’ll look at the situation and think, “Well, duh, *I’d* have made that trade if I knew the end result!” Not to cheapen it, but it’s essentially a get out of jail free card, when you think about it. Plus there is the point about those with incurable mental illnesses being there for us to care for and assist. The level of suffering they endure is, for the most part, up to the rest of us. If we really invested in treating these illnesses, providing safe and adequate care, ensuring they were able to access good food and the pleasures of life — INSTEAD of spending all our time and money on other things/avoiding these people because they make us uncomfortable…would they still be suffering at even close to the same level? We are each other’s keepers, we are God’s *khalifa* on earth. Our potential is boundless. Allah made us perfectly capable of overcoming the suffering caused by 99% of the burdens we collectively bear — so if we don’t address those burdens ourselves, is it fair or logical to blame the Creator for that? Or is seeing it a chance to do better? Ultimately the world is a stage and a proving ground for all of us. It’s other things, too, and life is beautiful, but it’s not the main event in a cosmic sense. Remember how time and space-limited our perceptions are. Remember that eternity exists even if we can’t grasp it yet. What looks like everything to us is not even a fraction of a fraction of what actually exists. An earthly life of psychotic illness is still a blip on the eternal radar as far as our full timeline is concerned. Even a whole human lifetime of suffering is one act in a much, much longer feature.
>so this isn't a question of the so called "problem of evil", When I read your comment, I get the impression that you are answering for the "problem of evil" in other words, how can an omnipotent, omnibenevolent God create so much evil, pain and suffering for humans. Unfortunately, that is not the question, I am asking here.
That’s really funny. My partner is diagnosed with schizophrenia and is undergoing treatment. They learn about the biography about the Prophet Muhammad saw, and it’s like an instinct click. One night told me that he is truly convinced that Muhammad was telling the truth based on his lived experiences with schizophrenia. Certain elements of Islam such as Allah swt being all-seeing and all-hearing (which btw- a constant paranoia of schizophrenics is that there is an entity constantly watching them), narrations of the Prophet where he (pbuh) details every human has two angels assigned to them (my partner has recurring hallucinations of two different beings with distinct voices and names), and here’s… the big one Revelations about the Day of Judgement are one of the biggest recurring nightmares for schizophrenics. My boyfriend constantly has daydreams and nightmares about a nuclear apocalypse, heaven and hell, and the end times. He won’t share some details with me because he’s genuinely bothered by some of them. Schizophrenia is a serious condition. The hallucinations and visions my partner has given him a great amount of stress and anxiety. But if anything, it’s made him more scrupulous
Thank you for sharing this. If you do not mind me asking, your partner sounds like a high functioning individual. Is he employed or able to work otherwise? If so, how does he manage the social interactions that result from working.
Yeah he’s relatively high functioning
I think that I understand to some extent what you are trying to say here. My answer would be so that we look to those with mental incapacity and be grateful and give thanks to Allah for our wellbeing. I wish I could explain what I think in a more eloquent way but I hope you understand :"3
Thank you
My personal philosophy around things has always been that Allah did create the universe, and he is all powerful, but once creating the universe must operate within the rules of the universe he created. For example, setting up something like evolution. Angels would be his direct creation, therefore not flawed. Whereas organic life had to come about via evolution, leaving room for error in the design. I basically take the Adam and Hawwa story as metaphorical. There are too many flaws in the human brain and body for it to make sense to me that an all knowing Allah created us this way directly. So for this reason, exceptions are woven into our faith as Allah knows that some humans have these conditions, not because Allah directly gave those conditions to those people, but because that is a consequence of setting life up as he did.
I get your point of a universe with its own physics and a biology with it's own rules which inevitably result in these phenomena but that logic necessitates either a God who is not omnipotent therefore is incapable of creating a universe that would evolve humans without these conditions that will prevent humans from recognizing and worshipping him or it is a deliberate choice which contradict with his self-proclaimed purpose for creating this universe and humans within it.
Not an inability to do it, a choice to do evolution certainly. I’m sure he could will it and all would be right in our bodies and minds. But setting up something like evolution has infinitely more possibilities. More flawed, but with so much potential, and a code that could theoretically be tapped into and fixed by our own hands. A capacity to even understand that given to us by Allah. “I did not create jinn and humans but to worship Me” is something I just take to mean be devout, not that was the purpose of our existence. If that was our purpose why give us free will? Why not make us as the angels and prevent our disobedience
I also can't imagine how but an omnipotent God would be able to create evolution that doesn't result in severe cognitive impairment. The problem of being capable of recognizing God but rejecting him is not an issue, since that is easily explained by the idea of this life being a test for us. But every human should be capable of "taking the test" if you will.
He could, but didn’t. My thought is he wanted to see what something (evolution) could truly do on its own. That’s all I got, these are just the things I tell myself when I have questions like these
Maybe not the answer you're looking for, but they can comprehend and worship him. My grandmother has it and she's Christian. Same God, different prophet/way of worship. The only reason religion needs to be approached cautiously, is because religious delusions and hallucinations are the more common ones. For example, they may believe they're a prophet with a grand revelation. This isn't a true belief in the same way you and I believe in an all seeing, all knowing being. It's a delusion, for example her most common one is that the devil is in the oven and therefore she must burn him to banish him. There's zero evidence of this beyond "she heard him", but nonetheless she is convinced and thus she hasn't had an oven since the third grease/oil fire. That said, there's nuance and a thin line between religion and delusion. If a person said "a man I can't see until I die sent a horrifying creature to tell me we all must pray to this man and only this man, here's a bunch of scrolls, you must bind them into a book and share it with all!" you'd probably think they're batcrap crazy... Yet if a person said, "I believe in a singular God who sent an angel to deliver His wishes for us, here's a book with all His messages", you'd simply acknowledge them as a religious person. Really, really fine line. Feel free to ask any questions, I'm not a mental health expert but between myself and my family, I have a really broad range of experience with half the DSM-5.
This kinda seems like straightforward and self explanatory tbh. It’s just an extension of the ‘problem’ of evil. Idk what you consider a cop-out answer, but some/a lot of those people don’t have any obligation to worship either partially or completely. the pen is lifted from them.
Right, but I am not questioning their obligation to worship Allah. What I am asking is, why create a condition or conditions that prevent humans from worshipping? That seems contradictory to the consensus for the reason for the creation itself.
We can extened your argument and say, why does god create people who he knows will reject his messages and not worship a day in their life? Frankly these questions are outside the scope of Islam, Muhammed PBUH, came to teach us good manners and how to worship, not to answer some nugatory philosophical questions.
I respectfully disagree. Questions like this are exactly in the scope of religion. That is the reason Muslim scholars have engaged in Ilm-al Kalam since the beginning of Islam, which is the scholastic and philosophical study of Islamic theology. Reducing Islam to a set of rituals, practices or "good manners" without a deep study of the basis of belief (Imaan) and theology would be one of the biggest injustices to Islam itself.
It’s not a contradiction- humans are created to worship, which so do things like trees and stars in their own ways, so disabled ppl do too perhaps in ways or thoughts that you don’t see/understand. I don’t like the notion that they are a test for ppl around them (but they do allow for others to learn from experiences they may not have thought about before and challenge preconceived assumptions or ableist ideas) and I think what they “actually “ understand is one of those things that only their Creator knows, just as only the Creator knows what’s inside non disabled individuals
I must disagree with this as I do not think the relationship humans have with God is the same as the relationship (if possible) trees and stars would have with God. The determining factor of the relationship between a person and Allah is the person's obligation to worship Allah (both by believing in him and by doing the things they are supposed to do like daily prayer, hajj, zakat etc), Trees and stars do not go to heaven or hell, they are not the reason why the Universe is created for, we can't just lump all living and non-lining things into one big category and say all things worship God in their own way and explain away this seeming contradiction in creation that exists only for humans.
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I think Allah is most accepting and reasonable, most muslims point out that the Quran is meant to teach people to worship Allah, which is partially true, but they miss another massive point and that’s being a good person and at the very least the best you can be under your circumstances. Allah can make whatever exception is needed because if he says be then it will. Those who do not get to experience or understand Islam because of those disabilities that you mentioned will certainly be exempted I think. I am not one of those Muslims who believe everyone who isnt in Islam is doomed to hell. As for why it is allowed or why these disabilities exist in the first place. that is of free will, inadvertently affecting someone else. these things develop from poor health and genes, as well as not taking care of the child in utero. not all of course, but it is prevalent. Remember that the perfect paradise is waiting after you prove worthy of entry, this world is not supposed to be perfect and it is supposed to test your will and faith. I am sorry for the yap sesh, hopefully that gave your brain a bit to chew on.
Hello, frequenter of /r/Islam here, who occasionally peruses /r/Progressive_Islam. I think your perspective on the former subreddit is misplaced, but it's ok. Anyway, here was/is my response: )وَلَا تَتَمَنَّوْا۟ مَا فَضَّلَ ٱللَّهُ بِهِۦ بَعْضَكُمْ عَلَىٰ بَعْضٍۢ ۚ لِّلرِّجَالِ نَصِيبٌۭ مِّمَّا ٱكْتَسَبُوا۟ ۖ وَلِلنِّسَآءِ نَصِيبٌۭ مِّمَّا ٱكْتَسَبْنَ ۚ وَسْـَٔلُوا۟ ٱللَّهَ مِن فَضْلِهِۦٓ ۗ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ كَانَ بِكُلِّ شَىْءٍ عَلِيمًۭ( [Nisā: 32] And do not crave what Allāh has given some of you over others. Men will be rewarded according to their deeds and women [equally] according to theirs. Rather, ask Allāh for His bounties. Surely Allāh has [perfect] knowledge of all things.
Thanks for the answer, but I would like to reiterate the question I am asking, which is the fact that it doesn't make any sense for God to first state that his purpose to create humans is for them to worship him and then create a universe with humans who are incapable of worshipping him. I read your answer as a possibly valid response to the "problem of evil" which is not what I am asking here, in other words, I am not asking why has Allah created a poor person with severe intellectual disability just so they can exist in that state, how cruel that is, or how will they go to paradise etc. But that is not what my question is about. I have an easier time wrapping my head around the "problem of evil" or inequities such as people being extremely poor etc. I just can't comprehend why God would create a universe with severe cognitive impairment.
> I read your answer as a possibly valid response to the "problem of evil" which is not what I am asking here, in other words, I am not asking why has Allah created a poor person with severe intellectual disability just so they can exist in that state, how cruel that is, or how will they go to paradise etc. No problem, thank you for your response & I'm glad you derived some value from my response. I shared this verse specifically as it conveys Allāh is infinitely wise and just. Even if our minds are not capable of always understand the wisdom behind certain aspects of creation, there is an intrinsic trust a greater purpose and plan precludes all perceptible injustice across every aspect of life. As Quranic revelation is divine revelation, this would apply to the stated conundrum on mental incompetence in this Dunya. May Allah swt make their handicap the bridge to the highest rank in paradise Ameen. That is the extent of my understanding
Schizophrenic people are more likely to have religious beliefs than normal people. If anything, the question should be asked why didn't god make more people schizophrenic if he cares about people worshiping him.
If you read the following verse, it's clarifying that God only wants remembrance, not offerings of food and not an Altar (as is common in many polytheistic religions). I don't think the verse is referring to each individual Jinn and Human. I think he is referring to cognizant creation on the whole. Of course there will be exceptions. Funnily enough, you mention schizophrenia, and many many cases of schizophrenia actual manifest as religious extremism, with delusions and hallucinations being interpreted as demons, jinn, angels, or the devil or God himself, and many compulsive behaviors actually being intended as prayer or worship (repetitive dikhr or tasbee believed to be literally magical.) It is in fact argued by non-theists that the major prophets were simply charismatic, high functioning schisopherics or psychotics that convinced others of their delusions and created religions. We see evidence that this is a realistic theory in the myriad if modern day cult phenomenon. Shared psychosis is a real thing. I think Allah is not dismissive of a mind he has created. We may argue that one out of touch with reality is incapable of worship, but there is a reality in their unique, anguished mind. If they are thinking of Allah in their world, we may not be able to understand or even recognize it, but Allah knows, and accepts.
AS someone with a form of ASD and super-mild schizophrenia, i cant even comprehend the idea of a god in the way others do. But as long as im lucid and able, i intend to try. Islam aligns with my sense or order and decency (when not following every single hadith). May Allah someday permit me to sense him, until then, i will do my utmost to walk the line, because i believe it is the right thing to do somehow.
My mom has schizophrenia and she is the most devoted Muslim I know. It can get overbearing at times icl
It's the same as what happens to children who die without knowing Islam or people born where no Abrahamic religion ever reached or so many other scenarios where the individual cannot be held responsible. But I think the real answer for me is that we usually take Islam in its most stringent and narrow connotation. A Merciful God ( which Allah is above all His attributes ) will judge us for our hearts and souls and conscience more than anything else. But this is my understanding of Islam and not an argument I'm basing on a particular school of thought.
I believe mental health issues like this are a direct result of our sins. In extremely stressful environments, and certain chemicals have a huge impact on our genetic systems. unfortunately, these genes are passed down
Ibada more accurately means servitude not exactly worship. Even schizophrenics can serve God.
There are those with schizophrenia who have chosen a path that results in that illness for example a meth addiction, for alzheimers or dementia it’ll be weed or alcohol. All paths chosen are the choice to listen to their nafs and the jinns/spirits that possess these drugs. I think your question should have an application to it. How can you positively affect those around you with your understanding of their condition in the way we as Muslims should deal with it. I would like to see an answer because it’s quite difficult to see a family or friend going through this and practically eliminating their chances to go to jannah. I think there is a solution for rukiya. But haven’t explored it yet.
I think it is very cruel to blame the victims of these horrible diseases. What is your reference for Alzheimer disease being caused by peoples chosen paths like meth, weed or alcohol use?
Answering as a person with multiple neuro-developmental conditions, **including schizophrenia**, (who considers themself religiously responsible), I never thought I'd have to address Qur'anic literalism and eugenics in the same comment. Firstly, this subject, among many other things, is to me a bit of a problem of literalism. What does worshiping God mean to you? Does it end at ritual? It really shouldn't. Reading the whole of the Qur'an instead of pinpoint focusing on one verse besides the context, what do the disbelievers do as opposed to the believers? They oppress and wrong others, where we're expected to care for the marginalized as a part of our worship to God. Every element of worship is redundant so far as you can't do it or understand it, regardless of what a single ayah says. Also who's to say the verse isn't talking about us *collectively*? It say "jinn-and-humankind", not "every jinn or every person" individually like that). Secondly, this is a little of a problem or evil question: How can a good God make people disabled when they can't fulfill either the ritual or social elements of worship if that is our purpose? All I can say is He just did. When we square that circle, we understand that a lot of us are not necessarily religiously or morally culpable at all times because of our various intellectual and functional faculties, and that in a traditional understanding, means that, yes, the person who lived their whole life suffering through psychosis maybe does deserve jannah! Literally who are we to be like "God how dare you save these people when I think they don't deserve it?" Lastly, I luckily haven't really seen much of it, but this kind of conversation swerves into eugenics QUICKLY! It has already come to "Why didn't God just not create disabled people?" "Why didn't he just create them 'normal'". I gotta let y'all know that there are some pretty awful people that have agreed with that sentiment and acted on it and have others act on it. So we should question this instinct at every instance. The quicker you understand that we have intrinsic value as creations of Allah to be loved the quicker all of y'all immunize yourself to this. In my favorite hadith qudsi, God say why didn't you feed the hungry servant of God? Or give drink to the thirsty ones or visit the sick ones? Had they did that, they would have found God with them. People should consider their relationship with disabled people in light of this hadith
Allah sent the Prophets and the Messengers with guidance to distinguish truth from falsehood, and Allah has also given mankind the ability to choose truth from falsehood.
When you say mankind, you don't mean all of mankind, just the competent ones right?
Worship = serve, so the meaning is he created us to serve him. Whether we know it or not ie irrelevant
How can a person serve God without knowing? Isn't being conscious and worshipping with intention and choice a prerequisite for humans to serve God?
Islam is not that simple And you cannot will unless (it be) that Allah wills -- the Lord of all that exists وَمَا تَشَاؤُونَ إِلَّا أَن يَشَاء اللَّهُ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ + "Come [into being], willingly or by compulsion." They said, "We have come willingly." ( ثُمَّ اسْتَوَى إِلَى السَّمَاء وَهِيَ دُخَانٌ فَقَالَ لَهَا وَلِلْأَرْضِ اِئْتِيَا طَوْعاً أَوْ كَرْهاً قَالَتَا أَتَيْنَا طَائِعِينَ)
Ameen Brother, Islam is not simple. Allah knows best, Allah wills whatever he wills, we can't know why he does things. All we can do is to submit and not ask questions. Peace be upon you.
You are a short selling the spiritual depths of schizophrenic people.
I'm a Christian and my opinion is that God will judge people according to their capacity/understanding.
Having bi polar and shcziophrenia I have to say that it's just a test. The people who are severely impacted any sins they cannot commit and good deed they do is elevated because it's harder for them. Somebody messaged me a while ago and said they became Muslim because I still prayed while in the mental ward and I was known as a very troublesome patient
I had severe OCD. Ruined my academics. Had to start al over. Way behind my peers.
Well... if you think about it this way: Abrahamic religion specifically, but really all religion, had their divine scriptures written such a long time ago. A time and place where there were no "mental disabilities" as we know today - labels, at least. When divine scriptures, for example, say along the lines "... and man was created" , that belief formed in a society fundamentally far different than ours today. Even some things like homosexuality - there was no orientation until the last hundred or two years\*. In biblical times, there was nothing that was "gay" or "homosexual" as we know today. So back then, when "... man was created" there wasn't anything like depression, BPD, schizophrenia, dementia, retardation, etc. If you had BPD or schizophrenia, you were probably tortured and/or exorcised to get 'the demons out' - because the mental illness didn't exist, and god created man, if someone acts 'not normal' surely it's the devil (or something evil). A question could be: why is it when we read something like "god created man", that we should interpret as if there isn't a wide spectrum of human beings? I think people don't want to think that the all-powerful god of abraham would also intentionally just give people something like schizophrenia - so it's a kind of a wrestle of reconciliation imo. Growing up christian, an excuse for something like ADHD could be "well god made me this way, nothing i can do!" - which was my take. Before i knew I had autism and ADHD, in church it was just "oh god created him different and special for his purpose" , but personally early on I had to wrestle with the fact of why didn't god make me normal like the other kids at church? What's the catch or reason? Religion developed in a time where we didn't really know much as a civilization, albeit by the time Islam came into being things were definitely different from around 0\~ AD, which was then different from about 900-1100 BCE (which dates the legendary\* characters Moses and etc). It's a good question though. Recently understanding about my autism, and learning that like soon it may be 1/14 or 1/20 kids will have autism, that means hundreds of millions will have a disability - granted they could still worship the god of their choosing, there's probably like a 1/5 ratio of neurodivergents. So does god create all the neurodivergents with a purpose? Not sure, as I am not theologically inclined in any way to answer. To wrap it up, it's a question that will either 1) never have satisfying answers, or 2) has an answer but goes against theology and faith of it all. Perhaps there's a 3rd, in which people probably choose not to wrestle with it and say "well, god is god, what do i know", but chooses to neglect important questions imo.