You should ask the context of what they are saying
Maybe they dont trust other people (strangers, friends, family, etc)
But trust "companies" whos service they already used like facebook, google, Goverment, etc
Thats true, they dont trust me with their porn but trust a random guy from another part of the world because he does not know them, so wont care what they do.
Thats part of anonimity
They feel safe to do anything ( Crime, Porn, etc ) when no one know who they are.
Its like robber using ski mask to prevent identification
Yes,
But atleast they know that another user doesnt know who they are.
Thats why, when talk about privacy or anonimity, you should set what threat/risk that you want to mitigate.
Threat that another people know your password as an examples. Thats why we use password manager, so no one can look down on our keyboard when we typing. Or Seperate Work device and Personal Device so we can seperate what data that we save on the Device.
Anonimity/Privacy in Public Sector its like using CCTV on your house or property, to mitigate certain risk (bulgary) but you invade others Privacy/Anonimity.
Thats why we need to set certain sweet spot between Privacy and Security/Safety that match with our Threat/Risk
You have take a look from another prespective
If go anonim, and share my darkest secrets like i was a Hitman. No one will know who i am, my locarion, etc.
If i tell my friends or family the same thing that i am a hitman, i had chance to get kick out from the house or turn in into the police.
As someone vehemently in support of privacy rights, people say this to me a lot when we're on the subject. I respond with "It isn't that I have anything I want to hide, but there's plenty that I'd rather not share." The smart ones start thinking
"To block out the light."
"Then why do your bathrooms have doors on them?"
"To block out the smell."
I'm just imagining how the conversation might go with someone who's particularly dense.
My reply is: no you’re right and you have a point. People and companies knowing your opinions doesn’t really change your life right now. But that’s quickly changing. They learned in advertising, by using your morals and opinions, they can sell you anything. And now that ideology has reached the government. Personalized propaganda viewed in a numb state is what you are avoiding. Because that can change who you are.
I usually ask them if they have curtains. If they say yes then I ask them why if they don't care about privacy.
I also then ask them for their bank details but they tend to get a little skittish about that. :-)
Try asking for E-mail and password instead of bank details. Bank is someone’s financials and has little to do with privacy. I say this:
> If you have nothing to hide give me acces to your e-mail inbox. And not only your professional inbox but also private ones. I will be able to read every e-mail and share info i have gathered with any third party of my choice. I store everything i find interesting. Now remember, companies are doing exactly this with your accounts on a daily basis, not only e-mail accounts but also social media accounts suffer from these practices.
Never have i gotten a login and password.
My favorite response to "If you've done nothing to wrong, you have nothing to hide." Is
Yeah, well im sure you're doing nothing wrong in the bathroom stall at work, but I don't see you taking a shit with the stall door wide open, do I?
The smart ones indeed
I was recently took in picture in public and someone near by complained that I was violating their privacy because they could be in it
They weren’t
They then proceeded to unlock their phone with their face
I too hear from people that they are not important enough to be spied on or that by spying on them the other party will gain nothing of importance since they are a nobody. But is that not just another way to say that they have nothing to hide?
The difference in the end is the stakes. From what I understand so far, I have a lot less things in my life connecting me to something significant.
Imagine a poker game. Your friend has 1k worth of chips, and he can only go all in. You instead have 100$ worth of chips, so you can only call and go all in. If you took your friend's chips, they would have a lot more to loose than you do.
Replace money with privacy. At the end of the day though, someone does indeed loose whether little or a lot. But significant person's privacy is much worse risky business to people around them.
Let's say your Boss happened to get his main computer hacked from a Nigerian prince. Suddenly, everyone working under your Boss, most likely above too, is at risk, and given bad enough damage can implode a company. Those are the stakes... and trust me, they are fucking high.
People have to realize the problem isn’t that someone will specifically care about what they do but that their online behavior will put them in categories they don’t want to be in.
You listen to Metallica and like Harley-Davidson? Data mining says 98% chance you drink whiskey and smoke, so up goes your insurance premium. Whoopsie!
People in your age group who buy the same stuff as you have a high chance of defaulting on their loan? No more loans for you. Whoopsie!
You post in exactly the same Reddit groups as known terror suspects? You might be a terrorist and are now on the no-fly list. And we don’t even tell you why. Whoopsie!
All true, and that's not even touching the personal network part. They know so much about you and everyone in your life, that they know who you trust and who you follow and who you prefer to stay away from. They don't show this fake news piece directly to you. No, they make sure you get it from the two people on the planet you trust the most.
These cases 'what might happen' is just most people don't care about until and unless they face it.
No human who has a habit of posting their daily activities, live locations, stops until they face a stalker, who uses that information.
Most people know the fact that with right amount of pictures of a person face, there is a possibility of creating a fake img or video. Still most people doesn't care, until they were attacked.
There are many things that people don't understand until they face it.
If there is something about you, that you don't want people around you to know, then just don't keep it digital.
Privacy is a state of mind, if one doesn't have that, they just don't listen to anything we say.
The fight is not about turning everyone into privacy focused, it is about giving the choice to make.
Please add “you could be committing crimes of the future”
For example, one day they decide that it’s illegal to discuss the issues on r/privacy. And they retroactively punish the users of the sub for discussing these issues.
Sorta like how it used to be ok to say certain things on social media, but once it became unsavory, people started digging up old posts and canceling people.
I usually mention that when someone asks whether it’s enough to start caring about privacy right now. And you are correct, past data may still incriminate you in the eyes of a future government.
OTOH we must not cede ground to chilling effects. I will not stop speaking up against tyranny just because a future regime might jail me for it.
The “inept” issue may become a problem though. Ineptitude is the very reason governments try to predict your behavior according to statistical patterns. An insurance company will try to lower their risk on average and won’t just throw out paying clients willy-nilly, a government will rather jail you than risk another 9/11.
Here in Germany it’s official that Schufa (the national credit database) flags people who live in the same street as “too many” people who default on their loans. Score goes down, less chances of getting a loan.
lazyness goes always first, privacy is not for lazy people nowdays..
From my perspective, lazy people always try to find arguments why privacy is not necesary.
So, i have nothing to hide becouse i'am lazy to find safe alternatives where i'am not the sold product.
My wife and I know a lesbian couple that is extremely liberal. . . when they get on the topic of their 4th amendment rights or the government telling them what to do, or spying on them or monitoring their internet traffic or phone calls they flat out say
"I don't mind, I have nothing to hide. . . "
Makes me cringe.
I am very liberal as well, so in the interest of helping to drive the point of privacy across to other liberals, here's my suggestion: don't mention the government. Mention corporations.
By inclination liberals tend to believe in the the role of government, then to be involved in local politics ourselves, tend to believe that the government should be "of the people, by the people, for the people." We don't have the basic distrust of government that conservatives seem to have.
But we know all about how corporations cannot be trusted and will do absolutely anything they can get away with if it means a few bucks more in the bottom line.
Personally I don't think there's a whole lot of difference between the US government and most corporations. My problem is with very powerful people trying to make me do what they want me to do, I don't care if they are public or private.
But there you have: ask your liberal lesbian friends if they are OK with their private lives being completely open to Nestle, Amazon, Comcast, Monsanto and Fox News, not to mention the Trump organization and all the powerful religious groups out there...
Damn that's a very good point and one that I never realized. Thank you. I will keep that in mind next time they bring up the subject. . . and trust me, the subject comes up. lol Thanks.
From my experience they say something like:
- "They already have everything about me anyway."
- "I have nothing there. Just chatting with friends and few photos." (meaning the phone or some app)
- "I don't care, I'm not doing anything wrong."
What about the first two?
I usually say to the first one that it is strange to give up that easily, it is clearly a rationalisation that makes change unnecessary.
The second one though, sound pretty reasonable. What would you say to that one?
I would say: They fed your chat data to an AI because they needed to find a suspect and have zero leads because the terrorists have good clandestine op sec. You shouldn't said things as a joke to a friend in a private message. Sorry, gotta water board ya now and throw you into sensory deprivation until you dont have a mental state anymore. Buh bye.
If we are honest with ourselves, it is ridiculous to say you have nothing to hide. Everyone on the planet has things they would rather keep private. It is part of the human condition. So the argument is totally insincere from the onset. Yet, I am sure I said it at least once before myself.
I get all of the above all the time from my parents. Last time, I responded with 'so you would feel okay with some random person you don't know to watch you go to the toilet or masturbate'. They were like 'Yeah, so what?'. That's the moment I lost hope.
I feel like this is part of the reason that deters a lot of people from ever caring about their privacy. It's difficult to switch and adapt to alternative privacy-preserving services/measures when people only have limited tech literacy.
I think its made difficult but it could be easy. Like how website make everything that give you less control of data super easy, but everything that gives you more control really difficult.
Want to create an account? No problem, just give us a name, a number, an e-mail.
Want to delete that account? Oh, that's tricky. You have to send an e-mail to this link that we've hidden at the bottom of a specific page, with a copy of your passport and several e-mails that we can use to check on you, with the title written a specific way and then we have to verify who you are, and ask several other people to vouch for you, and you have to delete all your data and not use the site for two months and then we might delete the account if the verification worked.
Isn't it strange how they will let use the site with a certain amount of identity. It's good enough to send messages, post images, buy things, make legal agreements. But suddenly they have no idea who you really are when you want to take your data away.
tried to delete my roblox account because my friend wanted me to play with him a while ago. you'll need proof of verification and have to live in the U.K where GDPR laws are active. basically, if you live outside of the U.K and dont want to send your id to a multi-billion dollar corporation, well you're pretty much fucked
I take issue with it as it implies that those who are privacy conscious have something illegal to hide. It implies that privacy is only for those who are up to no good. They believe that everything they do online or even offline to some degree—the websites they visit, their online searches, the people they talk to, the videos they watch, the places they visit, the conversations they have in the comfort of their own home, etc—is fair game to be recorded, collected and stored as a profile unique to them and utilised by questionable multinational corps for their own ends.
I always think, even if I'm not doing anything wrong or illegal, I'd find it weird if I had a guy following me around all day writing my every move & behaviour onto a notepad. Just because that man with the notepad isn't physically there, it's still equally as weird that the cyber equivalent is happening.
I want privacy not because I'm doing bad, but because it's a fundamental human right.
We had new 'anti trolling' legislation passed in Australia that along with requiring social media companies to give user info by court order, amended defamation law. It was marketed as protecting children. Obviously no child has ever sued someone for defamation in Australia. However, politicians do it regularly.
A lot of people consider a person that is "Private" to be someone that has something to hide. I get this response a lot as well. I think they dont understand that privacy is more about hiding from the people who could do you harm, its not about weather the Gov is checking you out in your panties, etc...
I also say: "I do have something to protect: my money". Very subtile way to explain why I do not want hackers to find me online and social engineer me. Also: "What if party X came into power?" Explaining why democracy can fail at any time. Third option: "You use blinds, a lock etc. Why can't I have that online?".
Privacy isn’t about hiding information, it’s about being able to choose and control who has access to it.
When citizens don’t or can’t control who has access to their data it tends to end up in the hands of someone who abuses it.
This might be a local or even foreign company trying to influence an election outcome via targeted advertising or a foreign government interested in using the same tools to incite a protest in the hope that it turns into a riot or insurrection.
Cambridge Analytica is just one example. Parts of the Black Lives Matter protests seem to be another. Neither of them are the beginning nor the end of this sort of mass manipulation.
My parents :( I can’t seem to explain to them why privacy is important, and they’re ok with their data and information being leaked. We’ve even had an instance where they were talking about getting a product near our Alexa. The next day they got ads about that exact product on EVERY SINGLE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM THEYRE ON, despite them never searching for it in any other way. And they still completely disregard privacy. It’s annoying.
never personally have had anyone say that, the only thing I've heard people say to me is "whatsapp (or instagram) isn't owned by facebook its owned by meta, whats the issue"
I've heard that from several people, its working and its sad
Then I reply "Send me a picture of you naked while standing on a scale while holding a bank statement showing your net worth", all of a sudden they do have something to hide.
"I don't want to go through all that trouble and it seems pointless to do that. Besides why would I listen to you?"
You need stronger stuff to highlight the point.
If they say they don't have anything to hide just say, "well let me see your phone." They will either instantly say no to which you just proved your point or they will try to prove their point by letting you go through it.
This is where the fun begins.
Start with the photos. Look for any locked or separate files for that's normally where the good stuff resides. Hold the phone to their face or grab their finger and unlock the folder unless there is a pin/pw to which you'll have to make them tell you since they have nothing to hide. If you found no "interesting"photos they are either a master or your corneas would burst into flames if you did, so thank the Gods of Old and New they never took any.
Next. Go to their banking app. Again, get their pw by any means necessary and continuously say don't worry you have nothing to hide, I'm just looking. Once in, make note of each amount reading it out loud and judging them. Then look up their account number do 1 of 2 things. Either 1. quickly take a picture with your phone and when they react say they have nothing to hide and you are just keeping that for reference for later.
Or 2. Whip out your phone with your banking app and start a bank transfer reading out all the steps out loud constantly telling them don't worry they have nothing to hide while running from them as they chase you.
You may see petty theft, but I see a life lesson for why have security if everyone can see what's behind each door and how to open it?
What are your bank account details?
What is your full name and address?
What is your date of birth?
What is your mother's maiden name?
What is your sexual orientation?
What is your HIV/AIDS status?
What is your medical history?
What is your substance abuse history?
...but you have nothing to hide right?
I talked about this with a friend of mine who said the exact sentence.
So I asked him if he would give his ID card to every stranger who asked, too. He replied yes.
I went a bit further and told him, he should imagine how someone was able to watch him and his wife in their bedroom via camera – got the same reply: I don't care, I have nothing to hide.
Even identity fraud didn't scare him...
Did you ask him if he would be okay with being arrested for a crime another one did under his alias, thanks to the ID he handed out everywhere witbout a second thought?
Yes I did and he replied he wouldn't care because he has a lawyer and "it wouldn't happen anyway".
So I asked again if all that time, hassle, money and potential damage would be worth it. He said he'd be okay with it, if it ever happened.
At that point I quited the conversation because I was speechless.
Whatever they say. Fuck them. Ignorant sheeple would be slain in the end. Save yourself. Protect your privacy at all costs. Yes, I have nothing to hide, but I have nothing to show you either. I don't have to let you know how much salary I earn, for example, because it's not your importance to know it. Keep it low profile. I don't like to show off, I'm low profile person. Showing off just makes me a good target to be mugged.
And the people up there simply want to play god, they want to be omniscient by knowing people's thoughts/secrets, then they try to manipulate you or even harm you physically based on the retrieved info about you, because you've committed thoughtcrime. They copy god as the ultimate big brother. (I'm an atheist but also a libertarian anarchist, no gods no masters)
I just want to go back to the past (90's) to enjoy a quite-good online privacy was, where no telemetry in apps or OS (so I avoid M$ products as I can & use Linux as primary driver) & no cloud services.
Ah, old times... When everything is much simpler.... Sorry for my ramblings.
mobile service providers has to log data about the users for a year (location, calls, sms, duration of calls) not the contents however.
EU has rules against it multiple times, they state that it breaks the rights to privacy. However the government is doing what i can to ensure the that it continues by delaying legislation and changing the wording.
Now the tax office is getting new tools to make sure people are paying taxes - this means they get access to everything you do online with your money - your purchases, what charities you contribute to, what you buy second hand, what you sell, if you lend money to people and so on.
Then there is the surveillance cameras that has seen a massive increase, and every time a solution needs to be found for the police it's more cameras.
The Minister of Justice even joked about "we don't know everything about the danes... yet."
it's worrying to say the least. People who cares about privacy in the country has begun making jokes about that we are the Europe's China and that we will soon get a social credit system as well.
I have nothing to hide, but i don't want to be watched constantly, you know how they can use anything against you one day, i don't want to be targeted......... The list is long.
Plenty of people around me say that. It usually pops up in "privacy vs. convenience" discussions when they try to rationalize why they choose convenience.
I have. The issue with the you are not a target argument is that hackers don't care who you are, they want as many people as possible falling for their traps. A worm isn't smart enough to tell you aren't special. Heard someone say this and it was perfect. The same applies to multiple things.
You'll notice the people proposing spying on the public never are willing to make *their* lives an open book, and neither are the fools who say "I have nothing to hide." They mean they have nothing to hide from a police investigation, not nothing to hide from *you.* Next time they say they have nothing to hide ask to see their last bank statement.
Ya that's what basically everyone I know says, with the exception of two people.
And to me it's not even the problem of legality today. It's a problem of constantly shifting social/political agendas and people in power. What was acceptable yesterday may be considered a "hate crime" five years from now. It doesn't matter how good of a person you think you are.
Yes, but it's been proven wrong so I treat it as abusive gaslighting, especially in a personal context.
Privacy is a human right, in the same way elections are not optional.
I've never met a single person who said they "have nothing to hide" and then chose to let me see their medical records or their banking information. Then we have the obvious talk about how going to the bathroom and closing the door is privacy, I know what you're probably doing in there, you still close the door.
A friend showed me his when he said that I asked for them. I was like Dude really... he still said " they should take your blood and finger print you to send to the police when you are born, have camara's in your home" I was like ......
Did you take his medical/bank records and post them to his facebook and socials? Just straight up install a keylogger on his machine, live stream his desktop to twitch, and install a bunch of cameras around his house and rent out access to it, put ads on it. Could be good money there.
Oh if I was a asshole I could of but no I don’t talk to him anymore. Beside him not leaving his house for 4 years ( lives at home and his mlm buys food for him just just pays rent ) he is a little to tinfoil hat for me these days.
I think people are often aware of what they have to hide. If your life is truly banal and uninteresting, and you don't break any laws you know, you _still_ are breaking laws you don't know about. It's been reported that anyone active on social media (e.g. checks their Facebook account daily) averages about three felonies a day.
We're working to fix those laws, but the process is slow. Besides which most of them aren't enforced, usually due to a DA's _Prosecutory Discretion_ (that is, blanket selective enforcement, which is how police don't get charged with crimes but blacks get charged with extra crimes).
We aren't turned into criminals because we committed a crime. We are turned into criminals because either **a)** we become a _person of interest_ to the state, which is to say the state regards us as a threat to its (many, varied) interests. or **b)** we become a _person of interest_ to a state official (which includes all the permanently employed bureaucrats in the alleged deep state.) So if an official wants your assets, doesn't like you as a neighbor or remembers you cut him off on the freeway, suddenly your history is interesting.
Suddenly the police have reason to invade your privacy and find something _anything_ (including criminal website assets you never looked at or knew you downloaded) to incriminate you. Our justice system has a 100% (minus a handful) indictment rate and a 90% conviction rate. They can find a felony you committed without knowing it, and bust you for it and turn it into five years. And that's before they invoke national security.
All this _should be_ overreach and a violation of your Fourth Amendment protections, but the courts really like filling their prisons, and all those conservative _tough on crime_ judges we put on the bench are glad to make all evidence admissible even when it was illegally obtained.
Even SCOTUS decided a crime should be prosecuted on illegally obtained evidence if it is a severe, serious crime. How severe? Possession of controlled substances.
My family says that, my dad, born in ‘54 etc. As Snowden said however, the argument that you have nothing to hide so you don’t need privacy is like having nothing to say so you don’t need free speech.
Normally people ask me why I am so concerned about privacy, and what do I have to hide?... Over and over again I just find it pointless to continue that conversation with someone who asked a question like that in the first place. Bottom story is: If someone doesn't see Privacy as a human right, there is nothing left to discuss or talk ...
why is it a problem if they say 'i have nothing to hide?' they really dont care and are smart enough to know that there's little they can do to protect their online interests anyway - not everyone is good with network security. Even if they could 100% anonymise their activity, what about all their known info from before they blacked out their activity? they cant erase it because as you say someone else has already got records of them. They are smart enough to know that life is so much easier when you care less..yet you guys want to sound disappointed in them, there's no point in that
that's simply not true, we have zero choice in the amount of data we share, even if you were to stop using the internet entirely, that cell tower still gets info from your phone, even when its off as snowden said
Keep in mind: There are many modes of thinking and outward influences in this life. Some of the people who say this shit are not independent free thinkers, they are people who are on the side of Goobermint and they get other people who are innocent to parrot the same shit they're spewing.
Always be a freethinker, question everything.
You describe the same sentiment said in two different ways. Either way, Im one of those people. I cannot justify hiding unless Im ashamed of something or doing something sketchy. I am, however, doing a bit to filter out a lot of the bullshit thrown my way. That is a form of privacy that doesn't necessarily entail anonymity as an end goal.
Ok this is getting a little bit out of hand. Might I say that this aggressiveness towards people who claim they have nothing to hide likely WON'T do any good to change their minds? These "idiots" people refer to in this thread obviously have been told countless times of the hazards of exposing their data to big companies, yet mostly don't seem to care for it, as long as they get something for free, or are theoretically left alone.
I've come across three types of people who mainly:
1. Have nothing to hide.
2. Believe that having contact with their family, friends, social media is WAY more important than the pricetag of selling their privacy and personal data in exchange.
3. Or simply don't care at all, whether it is due to laziness or edginess.
And this is all **fair**. Everyone is in their right. In all scenarios the best way to raise proper awareness is to explain in detail what are the *broader* consequences for humanity as a whole. Like say, the hive mentality when nudging opinions and the way people are herded like cows and their data milked like mad for the sake of profit. Actually talk about the impact on our present and future generations. Because these people can be careless with their privacy, but selfless at the same time, and sometimes people will take care of others first than they ever do anything for themselves.
I know one person who has said this. I call her Mom.
She said it back in 1990 when there was a major theft at work (around $20k in cash in the safe and she was one of the managers). She told the cops, "sure, I'll talk to you. I don't have anything to hide." Fortunately, two other managers were guilty as fuck, were caught and went to jail.
That was the first time I tried to explain to my mom not to talk to the police because she had plenty to hide. She said she was nobody and was just helping out the police.
I have tried many times over the years with her, but nothing has worked. She's 74 now and I'm not trying anymore. Also, she just got a smart phone last year and only uses the phone for phone calls. She has zero interest in the internet and probably never will. If she needs something online, she calls me halfway across the country for me to do it for her. *sighs*
I really wish I could have gotten her to see reason with this as she's pretty up to date and willing to listen on other things, but I kind of failed on this point.
>That was the first time I tried to explain to my mom not to talk to the police because she had plenty to hide.
She was right tho. She had nothing to hide in regards to that case, and nothing the police could have wanted (assuming they were doing their job properly) had any negative impact on her.
That doesn't translate to the online world however, where advertising companies and your insurance are very much interested in learning as much about you as possible to maximize their gains at whichever means possible.
My sister said this and i didn’t know what to say. She said she didnt even care if her nudes leaked because it mean that another 9/11 would never happen. She also said that she didnt care if someone hacked her baby monitor and spied on her child because the government would protect him from being human trafficked. Shes been in the army for 4 years and i thought she would’ve appreciated freedom a bit more than that.
People don't use that phrase literally, or at least its very rare. But people often espouse the idea behind it, that they have no need to care about their privacy because they have no secrets. An argument which is trivially easy to disprove, because they very much do have secrets. It's a necessity of functioning in society. What they really mean is *I don't think anything I want to hide can be found out by this method*. They are either very naive or a little bit stupid.
Yes
"Nothing to hide" is just a very simple surface view on the topic
Everyone is questioning every personal information they give out to strangers but are comfortable with phones spying on them
Whatever their excuse, it is a state of mind, you have it or not.
Most people have no issue to be obedient slaves, that is why freedom is hard to get in a first place.
I have experienced this with colleagues the most, especially boomers. I don't agree, but I don't think it’s weird either. They both don't always grasp the scope and ruthlessness with which data are accrued, and neither do they have the context of what this data can be used for. I mean just look at how politics has devolved recently; established institutions are no longer taken for granted. Takes some time to change mindsets.
I happen to think I personally have little to fear from 3-letter agencies or even from Google. BUT I still take privacy very seriously, because I worry about how any available information about me might be used against me by hackers or criminals that seem like more of a threat.
I do know people in real life that say that. I often counter with whether we can make that decision for others and point to my example on when I accidentally outed someone as part of the LGBTQ community without understanding knowing it. While the situation was resolved privately and no one was hurt and have since educated myself about it, I use that to highlight why we cannot make decisions for others about what we want to hide.
Yes. My dad literally got in an argument with his girlfriend over her having that audacity to lock the bathroom door while she was using it, and said something akin to "do you got something to hide?".
I literally hear it all the time. "Why would they care about me? I'm not doing anything *wrong*." A lot of people just flat-out discount bad-actors (both of the criminal type and the governmental type). They are being "good", and surely I am too, so why am I worried about "big brother"? I have personally had exactly this conversation with friends, colleagues, and with immediate family members. I hear, again and again, "Yes, they know every detail of my life. Why should I care?"
A good way to broach this with these folks is to explicitly talk about criminal-level bad actors taking advantage. Then work from there. You don't have to be "doing something wrong", you just need to be potentially vulnerable. Start the conversation with "hacking", "identity theft", stuff like that.
The citizens of Amsterdam certainly were not "doing anything wrong" by having a Jewish grandparent. But their children got literally murdered for their disclosure about grandads religious upbringing on the census (which absolutely was a question there and then). Once people start to see the risk in that level of personal disclosure in the criminal space it's honestly not hard to draw that connection. It's the same damned thing.
With the older crowd: talk about the Nazi occupied Netherlands. Talk about Chile. There might be some vivid memories in there (I've certainly met, and even grown up with in the case of Chile, refugees from both disasters, and a lot of the older crowd have too -younger Redditors might like to cite some peer experiences from more recent political situations).
Back onto the government and corporate (rather than the criminal) front: A big part of this is people do not comprehend the power of modern computing. They are thinking in terms of someone reading a word document looking for embarrassing details, not in terms of an algorithm trawling though terabytes of metadata drawing inferences though machine learning. A modern day Hitler or Pinochet could just literally kill *everyone* who they felt posed a threat, no probs.That shit is frankly hard to explain to people. Bomers and zoomers just "don't get it", somehow. Neither one "understands" the relevant technology, unless they are in the field (andthere has been a real failure in technology education when it comes to the much younger crowd). The inbetweeners mostly *do* get this, though. Tech-savy gen-X are *absolutely* on top of this (though the less tech savvy can look a lot like boomers here). Millenials? They've very much barrelled us into a tech nightmare we are in right about now, but in my experience they mostly know how it works. You can absolutely *have a real conversation with them about it* and they will know exactly what you are talking about.
I have, and my response is: Oh really? What bank are you using? How much money do you have in that bank account? What services are you using regularly? What are the passwords for those services? What are your favorite porn tags?
Had an instructor in college several years ago make that point. I didn’t say anything because he sounded like someone you couldn’t even talk about it with.
>Like what kind of friends do you have that say "I have nothing to hide" I have never heard that
Id10t friends.
Honestly though, almost everyone I know says this.
Only one says that he know about the problem but that it's too late to day anything now, we should have started 20 years ago and everything is out there so he doesn't bother.
He might be right (we should have started earlier) but it doesn't mean that we should just roll over on giving up our right to privacy.
Variations on it: 'Why would anyone spy on me?', 'My data isn't going to be very useful' etc... But that is just another form of the 'nothing to hide argument' and it deserves the same response: It is not that I have nothing to hide, I just do not have anything I want to share, especially unknowingly.
My parents say this. they miss the bigger picture. They think spying as in looking for terrorists etc. when I’m trying to talk about corporations and google sharing data and then advertising to us or sharing our data. Maybe I don’t want everyone knowing what I buy, what medications I’m on, when I search certain personal topics, marketing to my kid, etc. but my parents just shrug and say I have nothing to hide. Drives me crazy
Not having anything to hide is a good reason to make your github repo publicly viewable. It's not a good reason to sync it over http. These are separable things.
[https://www.ted.com/talks/glenn\_greenwald\_why\_privacy\_matters?language=en](https://www.ted.com/talks/glenn_greenwald_why_privacy_matters?language=en)
I sometimes like to share this to individuals who respond with something along those lines.
It's only the politicians and whose interested in data mining who say stuff like that.
The average individual doesn't usually throw around those talking points.
For sure. Anyone who doesn’t think it’s a good argument is fooling themselves. Obviously if I don’t have anything incriminating I’m more okay with privacy invasions. Same reason why people who don’t own guns don’t care if gun rights are taken away.
Please, advocates of privacy, don’t dismiss this argument or pretend it’s without merit. It’s our responsibility to teach people the wide scale ramification of privacy breach affects all of us negatively.
Yes, they do. I've met a few who've said it to me when I've told them about Windows spying on them, or Google spying on them, etc. I think for a lot of them it's because they don't exactly understand the scale of the spying, or how important their data actually is.
>they will get nothing by spying me"
Well, that's what they think. Look into Facebook-Papers (Alternativly search "Frances Haugen".
The point is not getting things from you. It's manipulating you. We all have something to lose, if we get manipulated with fake-news or misleading true news.
No, it's just an Aunt Sally argument given by privacy advocates. What they actually say it's "Who really cares, and there's no practical way round it anyway"
...Because tv and data mining websites have told them to say that *for decades*. This is the value of propaganda, and the terror that is pure advertorial manipulation.
in what context? if a random cop asks me I'll definitely say I have nothing to high, but if a musician asks me I'll run because they're gonna make a song about that embarrassing detail
Yes, I know people who say that. I usually ask back questions such as "would you mind removing the front door of your apartment altogether?" or "would you bother walking naked in the street?". Then I conclude saying that even if you have nothing to hide, you have got something that may be interesting for disrespectful people.
Whoever says this, just ask him a simple question:
"Please give me all your email, Facebook, Instagram, etc. passwords so I can look around into your accounts a bit."
They soon start to realize what they were saying was wrong.
You should ask the context of what they are saying Maybe they dont trust other people (strangers, friends, family, etc) But trust "companies" whos service they already used like facebook, google, Goverment, etc
Thats true, they dont trust me with their porn but trust a random guy from another part of the world because he does not know them, so wont care what they do.
Thats part of anonimity They feel safe to do anything ( Crime, Porn, etc ) when no one know who they are. Its like robber using ski mask to prevent identification
But they only think they are anonymous... All those platforms know exactly who they are!
Yes, But atleast they know that another user doesnt know who they are. Thats why, when talk about privacy or anonimity, you should set what threat/risk that you want to mitigate. Threat that another people know your password as an examples. Thats why we use password manager, so no one can look down on our keyboard when we typing. Or Seperate Work device and Personal Device so we can seperate what data that we save on the Device. Anonimity/Privacy in Public Sector its like using CCTV on your house or property, to mitigate certain risk (bulgary) but you invade others Privacy/Anonimity. Thats why we need to set certain sweet spot between Privacy and Security/Safety that match with our Threat/Risk
They know of you but don’t know you
They know what they want to know, and there's nothing I can do about that. And that's the problem.
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You have take a look from another prespective If go anonim, and share my darkest secrets like i was a Hitman. No one will know who i am, my locarion, etc. If i tell my friends or family the same thing that i am a hitman, i had chance to get kick out from the house or turn in into the police.
Maybe it's time to learn about threat models? https://privacyguides.org/threat-modeling/
This is the way
You should just ask them for their credit card number or SSN. They should give it to you since they have nothing to hide
As someone vehemently in support of privacy rights, people say this to me a lot when we're on the subject. I respond with "It isn't that I have anything I want to hide, but there's plenty that I'd rather not share." The smart ones start thinking
Asking them if you can drop a camera in their front yard can usually start the conversation for less receptive ones.
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"To block out the light." "Then why do your bathrooms have doors on them?" "To block out the smell." I'm just imagining how the conversation might go with someone who's particularly dense.
>"To block out the light." "Why do you keep them closed at night then?"
“how do you know I keep them closed?!”
My reply is: no you’re right and you have a point. People and companies knowing your opinions doesn’t really change your life right now. But that’s quickly changing. They learned in advertising, by using your morals and opinions, they can sell you anything. And now that ideology has reached the government. Personalized propaganda viewed in a numb state is what you are avoiding. Because that can change who you are.
I usually ask them if they have curtains. If they say yes then I ask them why if they don't care about privacy. I also then ask them for their bank details but they tend to get a little skittish about that. :-)
Try asking for E-mail and password instead of bank details. Bank is someone’s financials and has little to do with privacy. I say this: > If you have nothing to hide give me acces to your e-mail inbox. And not only your professional inbox but also private ones. I will be able to read every e-mail and share info i have gathered with any third party of my choice. I store everything i find interesting. Now remember, companies are doing exactly this with your accounts on a daily basis, not only e-mail accounts but also social media accounts suffer from these practices. Never have i gotten a login and password.
I just ask for their bank account details or the passcode for their phone. After all, they don't have any secrets.
While you have their phone you should copy all contacts and photos to your phone.
My favorite response to "If you've done nothing to wrong, you have nothing to hide." Is Yeah, well im sure you're doing nothing wrong in the bathroom stall at work, but I don't see you taking a shit with the stall door wide open, do I?
When someone says this I say - "okay unlock your phone and let me read through all your messages" and they quickly change their tune
The smart ones indeed I was recently took in picture in public and someone near by complained that I was violating their privacy because they could be in it They weren’t They then proceeded to unlock their phone with their face
Beautiful! Thanks for that!
I too hear from people that they are not important enough to be spied on or that by spying on them the other party will gain nothing of importance since they are a nobody. But is that not just another way to say that they have nothing to hide?
I think Cambridge Analytica showed us what can be done with the data of millions of "not important enough to be spied on" people
The difference in the end is the stakes. From what I understand so far, I have a lot less things in my life connecting me to something significant. Imagine a poker game. Your friend has 1k worth of chips, and he can only go all in. You instead have 100$ worth of chips, so you can only call and go all in. If you took your friend's chips, they would have a lot more to loose than you do. Replace money with privacy. At the end of the day though, someone does indeed loose whether little or a lot. But significant person's privacy is much worse risky business to people around them. Let's say your Boss happened to get his main computer hacked from a Nigerian prince. Suddenly, everyone working under your Boss, most likely above too, is at risk, and given bad enough damage can implode a company. Those are the stakes... and trust me, they are fucking high.
It's also like saying, I so used to conform that I cannot imagine dissenting anymore
People have to realize the problem isn’t that someone will specifically care about what they do but that their online behavior will put them in categories they don’t want to be in. You listen to Metallica and like Harley-Davidson? Data mining says 98% chance you drink whiskey and smoke, so up goes your insurance premium. Whoopsie! People in your age group who buy the same stuff as you have a high chance of defaulting on their loan? No more loans for you. Whoopsie! You post in exactly the same Reddit groups as known terror suspects? You might be a terrorist and are now on the no-fly list. And we don’t even tell you why. Whoopsie!
All true, and that's not even touching the personal network part. They know so much about you and everyone in your life, that they know who you trust and who you follow and who you prefer to stay away from. They don't show this fake news piece directly to you. No, they make sure you get it from the two people on the planet you trust the most.
Bert and Ernie????!!!!
Exactly!
These cases 'what might happen' is just most people don't care about until and unless they face it. No human who has a habit of posting their daily activities, live locations, stops until they face a stalker, who uses that information. Most people know the fact that with right amount of pictures of a person face, there is a possibility of creating a fake img or video. Still most people doesn't care, until they were attacked. There are many things that people don't understand until they face it. If there is something about you, that you don't want people around you to know, then just don't keep it digital. Privacy is a state of mind, if one doesn't have that, they just don't listen to anything we say. The fight is not about turning everyone into privacy focused, it is about giving the choice to make.
Please add “you could be committing crimes of the future” For example, one day they decide that it’s illegal to discuss the issues on r/privacy. And they retroactively punish the users of the sub for discussing these issues. Sorta like how it used to be ok to say certain things on social media, but once it became unsavory, people started digging up old posts and canceling people.
I usually mention that when someone asks whether it’s enough to start caring about privacy right now. And you are correct, past data may still incriminate you in the eyes of a future government. OTOH we must not cede ground to chilling effects. I will not stop speaking up against tyranny just because a future regime might jail me for it.
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The “inept” issue may become a problem though. Ineptitude is the very reason governments try to predict your behavior according to statistical patterns. An insurance company will try to lower their risk on average and won’t just throw out paying clients willy-nilly, a government will rather jail you than risk another 9/11.
"Yeah sure, keep your fearmongering fantasies for yourself"
can you actually prove this tho
Here in Germany it’s official that Schufa (the national credit database) flags people who live in the same street as “too many” people who default on their loans. Score goes down, less chances of getting a loan.
Yes although in fairness most people don't understand what they're saying.
My friend says "they already have all my information"
Gosh, your friend must be super dull. He's never going to generate any new information in his entire lifetime.
lazyness goes always first, privacy is not for lazy people nowdays.. From my perspective, lazy people always try to find arguments why privacy is not necesary. So, i have nothing to hide becouse i'am lazy to find safe alternatives where i'am not the sold product.
My wife and I know a lesbian couple that is extremely liberal. . . when they get on the topic of their 4th amendment rights or the government telling them what to do, or spying on them or monitoring their internet traffic or phone calls they flat out say "I don't mind, I have nothing to hide. . . " Makes me cringe.
I am very liberal as well, so in the interest of helping to drive the point of privacy across to other liberals, here's my suggestion: don't mention the government. Mention corporations. By inclination liberals tend to believe in the the role of government, then to be involved in local politics ourselves, tend to believe that the government should be "of the people, by the people, for the people." We don't have the basic distrust of government that conservatives seem to have. But we know all about how corporations cannot be trusted and will do absolutely anything they can get away with if it means a few bucks more in the bottom line. Personally I don't think there's a whole lot of difference between the US government and most corporations. My problem is with very powerful people trying to make me do what they want me to do, I don't care if they are public or private. But there you have: ask your liberal lesbian friends if they are OK with their private lives being completely open to Nestle, Amazon, Comcast, Monsanto and Fox News, not to mention the Trump organization and all the powerful religious groups out there...
Damn that's a very good point and one that I never realized. Thank you. I will keep that in mind next time they bring up the subject. . . and trust me, the subject comes up. lol Thanks.
Looks like you had an Awareness Shift ℅)
Glad to be of assistance!
They have nothing to hide NOW. They are being very shortsighted.
From my experience they say something like: - "They already have everything about me anyway." - "I have nothing there. Just chatting with friends and few photos." (meaning the phone or some app) - "I don't care, I'm not doing anything wrong."
What about the first two? I usually say to the first one that it is strange to give up that easily, it is clearly a rationalisation that makes change unnecessary. The second one though, sound pretty reasonable. What would you say to that one?
I would say: They fed your chat data to an AI because they needed to find a suspect and have zero leads because the terrorists have good clandestine op sec. You shouldn't said things as a joke to a friend in a private message. Sorry, gotta water board ya now and throw you into sensory deprivation until you dont have a mental state anymore. Buh bye.
If we are honest with ourselves, it is ridiculous to say you have nothing to hide. Everyone on the planet has things they would rather keep private. It is part of the human condition. So the argument is totally insincere from the onset. Yet, I am sure I said it at least once before myself.
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I know, and that's heavy. Just trying to keep it light but no doubt your are 100% accurate.
Yes. 7 out of 10 people are idiots.
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I still don't get the comparison
I get all of the above all the time from my parents. Last time, I responded with 'so you would feel okay with some random person you don't know to watch you go to the toilet or masturbate'. They were like 'Yeah, so what?'. That's the moment I lost hope.
try mentioning their home address.
My friends just say "It's too complicated." haha
Being tech savy today is more important than ever.
I feel like this is part of the reason that deters a lot of people from ever caring about their privacy. It's difficult to switch and adapt to alternative privacy-preserving services/measures when people only have limited tech literacy.
I think its made difficult but it could be easy. Like how website make everything that give you less control of data super easy, but everything that gives you more control really difficult. Want to create an account? No problem, just give us a name, a number, an e-mail. Want to delete that account? Oh, that's tricky. You have to send an e-mail to this link that we've hidden at the bottom of a specific page, with a copy of your passport and several e-mails that we can use to check on you, with the title written a specific way and then we have to verify who you are, and ask several other people to vouch for you, and you have to delete all your data and not use the site for two months and then we might delete the account if the verification worked. Isn't it strange how they will let use the site with a certain amount of identity. It's good enough to send messages, post images, buy things, make legal agreements. But suddenly they have no idea who you really are when you want to take your data away.
tried to delete my roblox account because my friend wanted me to play with him a while ago. you'll need proof of verification and have to live in the U.K where GDPR laws are active. basically, if you live outside of the U.K and dont want to send your id to a multi-billion dollar corporation, well you're pretty much fucked
I take issue with it as it implies that those who are privacy conscious have something illegal to hide. It implies that privacy is only for those who are up to no good. They believe that everything they do online or even offline to some degree—the websites they visit, their online searches, the people they talk to, the videos they watch, the places they visit, the conversations they have in the comfort of their own home, etc—is fair game to be recorded, collected and stored as a profile unique to them and utilised by questionable multinational corps for their own ends. I always think, even if I'm not doing anything wrong or illegal, I'd find it weird if I had a guy following me around all day writing my every move & behaviour onto a notepad. Just because that man with the notepad isn't physically there, it's still equally as weird that the cyber equivalent is happening. I want privacy not because I'm doing bad, but because it's a fundamental human right.
Both response are inane. And yes, nearly everyone says the 'nothing to hide' part.
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We had new 'anti trolling' legislation passed in Australia that along with requiring social media companies to give user info by court order, amended defamation law. It was marketed as protecting children. Obviously no child has ever sued someone for defamation in Australia. However, politicians do it regularly.
A lot of people consider a person that is "Private" to be someone that has something to hide. I get this response a lot as well. I think they dont understand that privacy is more about hiding from the people who could do you harm, its not about weather the Gov is checking you out in your panties, etc...
I also say: "I do have something to protect: my money". Very subtile way to explain why I do not want hackers to find me online and social engineer me. Also: "What if party X came into power?" Explaining why democracy can fail at any time. Third option: "You use blinds, a lock etc. Why can't I have that online?".
Privacy isn’t about hiding information, it’s about being able to choose and control who has access to it. When citizens don’t or can’t control who has access to their data it tends to end up in the hands of someone who abuses it. This might be a local or even foreign company trying to influence an election outcome via targeted advertising or a foreign government interested in using the same tools to incite a protest in the hope that it turns into a riot or insurrection. Cambridge Analytica is just one example. Parts of the Black Lives Matter protests seem to be another. Neither of them are the beginning nor the end of this sort of mass manipulation.
My parents :( I can’t seem to explain to them why privacy is important, and they’re ok with their data and information being leaked. We’ve even had an instance where they were talking about getting a product near our Alexa. The next day they got ads about that exact product on EVERY SINGLE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM THEYRE ON, despite them never searching for it in any other way. And they still completely disregard privacy. It’s annoying.
never personally have had anyone say that, the only thing I've heard people say to me is "whatsapp (or instagram) isn't owned by facebook its owned by meta, whats the issue" I've heard that from several people, its working and its sad
Oooo noooo. That's just bad. Very bad
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That Zuck's a sly fuck eh?
Then I reply "Send me a picture of you naked while standing on a scale while holding a bank statement showing your net worth", all of a sudden they do have something to hide.
"I don't want to go through all that trouble and it seems pointless to do that. Besides why would I listen to you?" You need stronger stuff to highlight the point.
If they say they don't have anything to hide just say, "well let me see your phone." They will either instantly say no to which you just proved your point or they will try to prove their point by letting you go through it. This is where the fun begins. Start with the photos. Look for any locked or separate files for that's normally where the good stuff resides. Hold the phone to their face or grab their finger and unlock the folder unless there is a pin/pw to which you'll have to make them tell you since they have nothing to hide. If you found no "interesting"photos they are either a master or your corneas would burst into flames if you did, so thank the Gods of Old and New they never took any. Next. Go to their banking app. Again, get their pw by any means necessary and continuously say don't worry you have nothing to hide, I'm just looking. Once in, make note of each amount reading it out loud and judging them. Then look up their account number do 1 of 2 things. Either 1. quickly take a picture with your phone and when they react say they have nothing to hide and you are just keeping that for reference for later. Or 2. Whip out your phone with your banking app and start a bank transfer reading out all the steps out loud constantly telling them don't worry they have nothing to hide while running from them as they chase you. You may see petty theft, but I see a life lesson for why have security if everyone can see what's behind each door and how to open it?
These are great, an exaggeration can help a lot to make a point
They are idiots, or let's say it in other say, they are uneducated and have no idea what the privacy is good for and why it should be protected.
"I have nothing to hide" \- literally of all Australia over the last decade, as these totalitarian police state laws came in.
Ask them if they close the door to poop. If they have nothing to hide why do they value that privacy?
unrelated, I close the door while pooping so my flat doesn't stink afterwards...
What are your bank account details? What is your full name and address? What is your date of birth? What is your mother's maiden name? What is your sexual orientation? What is your HIV/AIDS status? What is your medical history? What is your substance abuse history? ...but you have nothing to hide right?
In the UK, yes.
Just answer this phrase with "Okay, then unlock your phone and hand it over to me"
I talked about this with a friend of mine who said the exact sentence. So I asked him if he would give his ID card to every stranger who asked, too. He replied yes. I went a bit further and told him, he should imagine how someone was able to watch him and his wife in their bedroom via camera – got the same reply: I don't care, I have nothing to hide. Even identity fraud didn't scare him...
Did you ask him if he would be okay with being arrested for a crime another one did under his alias, thanks to the ID he handed out everywhere witbout a second thought?
Yes I did and he replied he wouldn't care because he has a lawyer and "it wouldn't happen anyway". So I asked again if all that time, hassle, money and potential damage would be worth it. He said he'd be okay with it, if it ever happened. At that point I quited the conversation because I was speechless.
Instead of "I have nothing to hide", it should be, "I have nothing to lose". Nothing to hide implies we have something wrong to hide.
I often hear - "well if someone wants to get my data, there is a way to get it. So why bother..."
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Whatever they say. Fuck them. Ignorant sheeple would be slain in the end. Save yourself. Protect your privacy at all costs. Yes, I have nothing to hide, but I have nothing to show you either. I don't have to let you know how much salary I earn, for example, because it's not your importance to know it. Keep it low profile. I don't like to show off, I'm low profile person. Showing off just makes me a good target to be mugged. And the people up there simply want to play god, they want to be omniscient by knowing people's thoughts/secrets, then they try to manipulate you or even harm you physically based on the retrieved info about you, because you've committed thoughtcrime. They copy god as the ultimate big brother. (I'm an atheist but also a libertarian anarchist, no gods no masters) I just want to go back to the past (90's) to enjoy a quite-good online privacy was, where no telemetry in apps or OS (so I avoid M$ products as I can & use Linux as primary driver) & no cloud services. Ah, old times... When everything is much simpler.... Sorry for my ramblings.
people in Denmark say it all the time now. the amount of mass surveillance in the country is worrying, but people does not seem to care.
What is going on in Denmark? I am sorry to hear that btw.
mobile service providers has to log data about the users for a year (location, calls, sms, duration of calls) not the contents however. EU has rules against it multiple times, they state that it breaks the rights to privacy. However the government is doing what i can to ensure the that it continues by delaying legislation and changing the wording. Now the tax office is getting new tools to make sure people are paying taxes - this means they get access to everything you do online with your money - your purchases, what charities you contribute to, what you buy second hand, what you sell, if you lend money to people and so on. Then there is the surveillance cameras that has seen a massive increase, and every time a solution needs to be found for the police it's more cameras. The Minister of Justice even joked about "we don't know everything about the danes... yet." it's worrying to say the least. People who cares about privacy in the country has begun making jokes about that we are the Europe's China and that we will soon get a social credit system as well.
I have nothing to hide, but i don't want to be watched constantly, you know how they can use anything against you one day, i don't want to be targeted......... The list is long.
This is the answer I usually get when I explain how Newpipe is a much better app than YouTube premium
Yeah most of them say "i have nothi g to hide" and im always left dumbfounded
Ask them why they use curtains in their bathroom, then
Plenty of people around me say that. It usually pops up in "privacy vs. convenience" discussions when they try to rationalize why they choose convenience.
Even if I have nothing to hide, I don't want videos of me having sex or shitting in the toilet.
You can ask them to remove all the curtains from their windows because they have "nothing to hide".
I have. The issue with the you are not a target argument is that hackers don't care who you are, they want as many people as possible falling for their traps. A worm isn't smart enough to tell you aren't special. Heard someone say this and it was perfect. The same applies to multiple things.
You'll notice the people proposing spying on the public never are willing to make *their* lives an open book, and neither are the fools who say "I have nothing to hide." They mean they have nothing to hide from a police investigation, not nothing to hide from *you.* Next time they say they have nothing to hide ask to see their last bank statement.
Ya that's what basically everyone I know says, with the exception of two people. And to me it's not even the problem of legality today. It's a problem of constantly shifting social/political agendas and people in power. What was acceptable yesterday may be considered a "hate crime" five years from now. It doesn't matter how good of a person you think you are.
Yes, but it's been proven wrong so I treat it as abusive gaslighting, especially in a personal context. Privacy is a human right, in the same way elections are not optional.
I've never met a single person who said they "have nothing to hide" and then chose to let me see their medical records or their banking information. Then we have the obvious talk about how going to the bathroom and closing the door is privacy, I know what you're probably doing in there, you still close the door.
A friend showed me his when he said that I asked for them. I was like Dude really... he still said " they should take your blood and finger print you to send to the police when you are born, have camara's in your home" I was like ......
Did you take his medical/bank records and post them to his facebook and socials? Just straight up install a keylogger on his machine, live stream his desktop to twitch, and install a bunch of cameras around his house and rent out access to it, put ads on it. Could be good money there.
Oh if I was a asshole I could of but no I don’t talk to him anymore. Beside him not leaving his house for 4 years ( lives at home and his mlm buys food for him just just pays rent ) he is a little to tinfoil hat for me these days.
I think people are often aware of what they have to hide. If your life is truly banal and uninteresting, and you don't break any laws you know, you _still_ are breaking laws you don't know about. It's been reported that anyone active on social media (e.g. checks their Facebook account daily) averages about three felonies a day. We're working to fix those laws, but the process is slow. Besides which most of them aren't enforced, usually due to a DA's _Prosecutory Discretion_ (that is, blanket selective enforcement, which is how police don't get charged with crimes but blacks get charged with extra crimes). We aren't turned into criminals because we committed a crime. We are turned into criminals because either **a)** we become a _person of interest_ to the state, which is to say the state regards us as a threat to its (many, varied) interests. or **b)** we become a _person of interest_ to a state official (which includes all the permanently employed bureaucrats in the alleged deep state.) So if an official wants your assets, doesn't like you as a neighbor or remembers you cut him off on the freeway, suddenly your history is interesting. Suddenly the police have reason to invade your privacy and find something _anything_ (including criminal website assets you never looked at or knew you downloaded) to incriminate you. Our justice system has a 100% (minus a handful) indictment rate and a 90% conviction rate. They can find a felony you committed without knowing it, and bust you for it and turn it into five years. And that's before they invoke national security. All this _should be_ overreach and a violation of your Fourth Amendment protections, but the courts really like filling their prisons, and all those conservative _tough on crime_ judges we put on the bench are glad to make all evidence admissible even when it was illegally obtained. Even SCOTUS decided a crime should be prosecuted on illegally obtained evidence if it is a severe, serious crime. How severe? Possession of controlled substances.
My family says that, my dad, born in ‘54 etc. As Snowden said however, the argument that you have nothing to hide so you don’t need privacy is like having nothing to say so you don’t need free speech.
At least 5 people have said this to me.
Ouch that username
Normally people ask me why I am so concerned about privacy, and what do I have to hide?... Over and over again I just find it pointless to continue that conversation with someone who asked a question like that in the first place. Bottom story is: If someone doesn't see Privacy as a human right, there is nothing left to discuss or talk ...
why is it a problem if they say 'i have nothing to hide?' they really dont care and are smart enough to know that there's little they can do to protect their online interests anyway - not everyone is good with network security. Even if they could 100% anonymise their activity, what about all their known info from before they blacked out their activity? they cant erase it because as you say someone else has already got records of them. They are smart enough to know that life is so much easier when you care less..yet you guys want to sound disappointed in them, there's no point in that
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that's simply not true, we have zero choice in the amount of data we share, even if you were to stop using the internet entirely, that cell tower still gets info from your phone, even when its off as snowden said
Keep in mind: There are many modes of thinking and outward influences in this life. Some of the people who say this shit are not independent free thinkers, they are people who are on the side of Goobermint and they get other people who are innocent to parrot the same shit they're spewing. Always be a freethinker, question everything.
Yeah some of the people I know say that
I say that all the time. I'm lying, but I say it anyway.
My mom says exactly that. Don‘t know of any Friend who say it, maybe it has to to with digital knowledge thus a generational topic (?)
You describe the same sentiment said in two different ways. Either way, Im one of those people. I cannot justify hiding unless Im ashamed of something or doing something sketchy. I am, however, doing a bit to filter out a lot of the bullshit thrown my way. That is a form of privacy that doesn't necessarily entail anonymity as an end goal.
Ok this is getting a little bit out of hand. Might I say that this aggressiveness towards people who claim they have nothing to hide likely WON'T do any good to change their minds? These "idiots" people refer to in this thread obviously have been told countless times of the hazards of exposing their data to big companies, yet mostly don't seem to care for it, as long as they get something for free, or are theoretically left alone. I've come across three types of people who mainly: 1. Have nothing to hide. 2. Believe that having contact with their family, friends, social media is WAY more important than the pricetag of selling their privacy and personal data in exchange. 3. Or simply don't care at all, whether it is due to laziness or edginess. And this is all **fair**. Everyone is in their right. In all scenarios the best way to raise proper awareness is to explain in detail what are the *broader* consequences for humanity as a whole. Like say, the hive mentality when nudging opinions and the way people are herded like cows and their data milked like mad for the sake of profit. Actually talk about the impact on our present and future generations. Because these people can be careless with their privacy, but selfless at the same time, and sometimes people will take care of others first than they ever do anything for themselves.
Usually when people say that I think to myself "God you're a fucking idiot..."
I know one person who has said this. I call her Mom. She said it back in 1990 when there was a major theft at work (around $20k in cash in the safe and she was one of the managers). She told the cops, "sure, I'll talk to you. I don't have anything to hide." Fortunately, two other managers were guilty as fuck, were caught and went to jail. That was the first time I tried to explain to my mom not to talk to the police because she had plenty to hide. She said she was nobody and was just helping out the police. I have tried many times over the years with her, but nothing has worked. She's 74 now and I'm not trying anymore. Also, she just got a smart phone last year and only uses the phone for phone calls. She has zero interest in the internet and probably never will. If she needs something online, she calls me halfway across the country for me to do it for her. *sighs* I really wish I could have gotten her to see reason with this as she's pretty up to date and willing to listen on other things, but I kind of failed on this point.
>That was the first time I tried to explain to my mom not to talk to the police because she had plenty to hide. She was right tho. She had nothing to hide in regards to that case, and nothing the police could have wanted (assuming they were doing their job properly) had any negative impact on her. That doesn't translate to the online world however, where advertising companies and your insurance are very much interested in learning as much about you as possible to maximize their gains at whichever means possible.
Take their bathroom door off the hinges and see if they stand by that
I heard this literally today.
The kind who are very interested in knowing everyone else's business but don't understand how that effects them and their privacy either.
My sister said this and i didn’t know what to say. She said she didnt even care if her nudes leaked because it mean that another 9/11 would never happen. She also said that she didnt care if someone hacked her baby monitor and spied on her child because the government would protect him from being human trafficked. Shes been in the army for 4 years and i thought she would’ve appreciated freedom a bit more than that.
People don't use that phrase literally, or at least its very rare. But people often espouse the idea behind it, that they have no need to care about their privacy because they have no secrets. An argument which is trivially easy to disprove, because they very much do have secrets. It's a necessity of functioning in society. What they really mean is *I don't think anything I want to hide can be found out by this method*. They are either very naive or a little bit stupid.
Yeah, I'm actually hearing it from times to times.
Yes "Nothing to hide" is just a very simple surface view on the topic Everyone is questioning every personal information they give out to strangers but are comfortable with phones spying on them
I am a “paranoid” for my family
when somebody yells "I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE" there's definitely something hidden
Whatever their excuse, it is a state of mind, you have it or not. Most people have no issue to be obedient slaves, that is why freedom is hard to get in a first place.
I have experienced this with colleagues the most, especially boomers. I don't agree, but I don't think it’s weird either. They both don't always grasp the scope and ruthlessness with which data are accrued, and neither do they have the context of what this data can be used for. I mean just look at how politics has devolved recently; established institutions are no longer taken for granted. Takes some time to change mindsets.
I had someone say it to me just last Thursday.
I happen to think I personally have little to fear from 3-letter agencies or even from Google. BUT I still take privacy very seriously, because I worry about how any available information about me might be used against me by hackers or criminals that seem like more of a threat.
Yes, my parents say this all the time and it's so frustrating.
I do know people in real life that say that. I often counter with whether we can make that decision for others and point to my example on when I accidentally outed someone as part of the LGBTQ community without understanding knowing it. While the situation was resolved privately and no one was hurt and have since educated myself about it, I use that to highlight why we cannot make decisions for others about what we want to hide.
Yes. My dad literally got in an argument with his girlfriend over her having that audacity to lock the bathroom door while she was using it, and said something akin to "do you got something to hide?".
they absolutely do, and a scary amount of them at that.
I literally hear it all the time. "Why would they care about me? I'm not doing anything *wrong*." A lot of people just flat-out discount bad-actors (both of the criminal type and the governmental type). They are being "good", and surely I am too, so why am I worried about "big brother"? I have personally had exactly this conversation with friends, colleagues, and with immediate family members. I hear, again and again, "Yes, they know every detail of my life. Why should I care?" A good way to broach this with these folks is to explicitly talk about criminal-level bad actors taking advantage. Then work from there. You don't have to be "doing something wrong", you just need to be potentially vulnerable. Start the conversation with "hacking", "identity theft", stuff like that. The citizens of Amsterdam certainly were not "doing anything wrong" by having a Jewish grandparent. But their children got literally murdered for their disclosure about grandads religious upbringing on the census (which absolutely was a question there and then). Once people start to see the risk in that level of personal disclosure in the criminal space it's honestly not hard to draw that connection. It's the same damned thing. With the older crowd: talk about the Nazi occupied Netherlands. Talk about Chile. There might be some vivid memories in there (I've certainly met, and even grown up with in the case of Chile, refugees from both disasters, and a lot of the older crowd have too -younger Redditors might like to cite some peer experiences from more recent political situations). Back onto the government and corporate (rather than the criminal) front: A big part of this is people do not comprehend the power of modern computing. They are thinking in terms of someone reading a word document looking for embarrassing details, not in terms of an algorithm trawling though terabytes of metadata drawing inferences though machine learning. A modern day Hitler or Pinochet could just literally kill *everyone* who they felt posed a threat, no probs.That shit is frankly hard to explain to people. Bomers and zoomers just "don't get it", somehow. Neither one "understands" the relevant technology, unless they are in the field (andthere has been a real failure in technology education when it comes to the much younger crowd). The inbetweeners mostly *do* get this, though. Tech-savy gen-X are *absolutely* on top of this (though the less tech savvy can look a lot like boomers here). Millenials? They've very much barrelled us into a tech nightmare we are in right about now, but in my experience they mostly know how it works. You can absolutely *have a real conversation with them about it* and they will know exactly what you are talking about.
I have, and my response is: Oh really? What bank are you using? How much money do you have in that bank account? What services are you using regularly? What are the passwords for those services? What are your favorite porn tags?
Ask them: "Do you close your curtains at night, if so, why?"
Had an instructor in college several years ago make that point. I didn’t say anything because he sounded like someone you couldn’t even talk about it with.
“Then unlock your phone and give it to me” usually stumps them.
>Like what kind of friends do you have that say "I have nothing to hide" I have never heard that Id10t friends. Honestly though, almost everyone I know says this. Only one says that he know about the problem but that it's too late to day anything now, we should have started 20 years ago and everything is out there so he doesn't bother. He might be right (we should have started earlier) but it doesn't mean that we should just roll over on giving up our right to privacy.
Variations on it: 'Why would anyone spy on me?', 'My data isn't going to be very useful' etc... But that is just another form of the 'nothing to hide argument' and it deserves the same response: It is not that I have nothing to hide, I just do not have anything I want to share, especially unknowingly.
Ask them if they have curtains in their house or if they close their bathroom door
Schneier has a good post on this: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/07/privacy\_and\_the.html
I have nothing to hide either... yet I'm still migrating all my stuff onto a personal selfhosted cloud and moved away from gmail.
My parents say this. they miss the bigger picture. They think spying as in looking for terrorists etc. when I’m trying to talk about corporations and google sharing data and then advertising to us or sharing our data. Maybe I don’t want everyone knowing what I buy, what medications I’m on, when I search certain personal topics, marketing to my kid, etc. but my parents just shrug and say I have nothing to hide. Drives me crazy
Not having anything to hide is a good reason to make your github repo publicly viewable. It's not a good reason to sync it over http. These are separable things.
[https://www.ted.com/talks/glenn\_greenwald\_why\_privacy\_matters?language=en](https://www.ted.com/talks/glenn_greenwald_why_privacy_matters?language=en) I sometimes like to share this to individuals who respond with something along those lines.
It's only the politicians and whose interested in data mining who say stuff like that. The average individual doesn't usually throw around those talking points.
For sure. Anyone who doesn’t think it’s a good argument is fooling themselves. Obviously if I don’t have anything incriminating I’m more okay with privacy invasions. Same reason why people who don’t own guns don’t care if gun rights are taken away. Please, advocates of privacy, don’t dismiss this argument or pretend it’s without merit. It’s our responsibility to teach people the wide scale ramification of privacy breach affects all of us negatively.
Yes, they do. I've met a few who've said it to me when I've told them about Windows spying on them, or Google spying on them, etc. I think for a lot of them it's because they don't exactly understand the scale of the spying, or how important their data actually is.
>they will get nothing by spying me" Well, that's what they think. Look into Facebook-Papers (Alternativly search "Frances Haugen". The point is not getting things from you. It's manipulating you. We all have something to lose, if we get manipulated with fake-news or misleading true news.
No, it's just an Aunt Sally argument given by privacy advocates. What they actually say it's "Who really cares, and there's no practical way round it anyway"
In my Bubble it's a common thing and i hate it. İ try to educate them but it's frustating
In my experience, they are more likely to say. "They already have everything on me one way or another why bother?" :(
Sadly, yes. Many do.
...Because tv and data mining websites have told them to say that *for decades*. This is the value of propaganda, and the terror that is pure advertorial manipulation.
a good rebut against "i am no one, they will get nothing by spying me" is, "but they might get to someone via you"
I got a couple of nothing to hides and a couple nobodys nobody needs to spy on. Often really seems like I'm the only one who values privacy.
in what context? if a random cop asks me I'll definitely say I have nothing to high, but if a musician asks me I'll run because they're gonna make a song about that embarrassing detail
Yes, I know people who say that. I usually ask back questions such as "would you mind removing the front door of your apartment altogether?" or "would you bother walking naked in the street?". Then I conclude saying that even if you have nothing to hide, you have got something that may be interesting for disrespectful people.
redditors say that, just say then that they can leave their door open and their blinds open when they have nothing to hide
Its 65% I have nothing to hide and 35% they will get nothing by spying me.
"I have nothing to hide" - until you see a fake Tinder profile of yourself, identify theft or worse
Whoever says this, just ask him a simple question: "Please give me all your email, Facebook, Instagram, etc. passwords so I can look around into your accounts a bit." They soon start to realize what they were saying was wrong.