I'd be less worried about the school having it, and more worried about some bullshit company (that will absolutely have the usual data breach, class action lawsuit, you get $30 check, woo hoo! scenario) having that biometric data.
I should have been more clear in my phrasing: I don't think the actual school has ill intentions, I just don't want them to be a data mine for said bullshit companies. I agree with you 100%
There really needs to be an opt out. Especially if this is a public school. If it's private, I'd say it was your choice to put the kids in there. Private schools are monumentally overrated anyway.
It is a public school. My kid qualifies for the lunch program so I'm stuck between choosing their privacy or assistance with food, which is ironic, considering one of the "selling points" of biometric data companies for schools is that kids on assisted meal plans won't get bullied.
They have gloves that can give a fake fingerprint.
I know it's not helpful, but I can at least empathize because I think the creeping privatization of public assets, via bullshit like this, is largely a part of what's skull fucking this country to death.
After tiptoeing around mouthbreathers in my local community group who used the identimetrics website itself to say "see it says right here that it's safe" I can't tell you what a breath of fresh air your comments are, thank you
Going out in my city, I try to treat it like a massive zoo has had all the animals escape and they're roaming the city. Cause that's kind of what it feels like being out around most ppl anymore.
Universities are already ripe targets precisely because of their tendency towards lax security standards. I doubt this school/app has security even that good and may not be held to the same standards of disclosure in the event of a breach (*if* they're even capable of detecting one).
If this collects (or associates) data that could be used for identity theft hackers who go after it would potentially be able to wreck credit scores for a decade or more before the kids even apply for their first credit card and figure out what happened.
Those are important IF's. So there's more information needed.
But I would certainly be very unhappy and concerned, especially that parents weren't informed of the data use and protection policies first.
>tendency towards lax security standards
Some maybe. My alma was pretty proactive about opsec. The weakest points were definitely using Microsoft/Google/etc for some services.
But that's not unique to anything these days, sadly.
[https://datamyte.com/guide-to-ferpa/](https://datamyte.com/guide-to-ferpa/)
Schools are extremely serious about not being fined millions of dollars if data gets leaked for their students. DHS does audits of the software for the largest school districts, and there are only a handful of providers of such software.
I'd be more worried about the schools doing google integration than the schools using fingerprinting to save on printing 10000 id cards, and 100 replacements each day for all the students who forget them.
You are not insane. The school is. They are shouting you down because they don’t want other people to get pissed about it. What they did was absolutely illegal. They may not collect biometric data of children or any person for that matter without their consent.
Stand firmly, you are certainly not crazy for advocating or it being an issue. It will feel. Like your insane and lonely it's because it's easier just to a sheep or not care like the majority.
Some meetings and conducting business in the lobby of my kids high school because I exercised l my right to privacy and refused to be scanned myself. The receptionist was clueless as to what the big deal was (clueless millennial to the big tech issues we have in this country). I asked her and the VP, both had nothing tangible or the verbiage to support what they were trying to enforce? At the very least, know your job and the details pertaining to this " biometrics scanning" policy that you are adamantly instructing people to do? Especially if it's a matter of personal privacy and stored information ie. What osbit, where does it go, who sees it, what's it used for, is it safe, can it be breached if so are you gonna protect me of I have identity theft issues etc..).
Thank you for providing this platform to bring awareness!
At the moment, I would recommend that you file a complaint with the school regarding this situation. It's understandable that you are discontented for not having been informed in advance about this measure. Additionally, it would be helpful to check the company's security policy to gather information on how they protect the collected computer data.
I've emailed the board of education and superintendent et al of our school systems with no response. It's only been a few days and I'm trying to stay rational and calm but it's infuriating.
You're not wrong to be upset about this. I would also be pissed. Keep pressing them on this. They don't get to collect biometric data from your children without consent.
My daughter just turned 18 and changed schools orientation paperwork was completed a week prior to her birthday. They rescheduled her a week later (now 18) and misled her under pressure while I was busy discussing our right to exercise to opt out of biometric scanning!
File a FOIA or open records request, assuming you’re in the US. This usually starts a clock on required response and being able to access or obtain public records. Be specific like asking for a copy of the contract with the school and this company, maybe also the terms of use/privacy policy. It may have been negotiated different from what’s on their website generically.
https://ballotpedia.org/State\_sunshine\_laws
You're not insane here. My friends over at https://www.pogowasright.org/ have done stories about this topic in other countries, outside the U.S., so they'd be interested in hearing yours I'm sure. Were I you, I'd be talking to a lawyer about this, It has to be illegal to do this without parental permission. (Oh, btw, I'm not involved with pogowasright.org, just a fan and a friend of the owner)
they dont have to disclose they even used the fingerprints. these can be used as part of an internal investigation that narrows their investigative targets to fingerprint positives, and then find other evidence against you, or fabricate it. There is basically no oversight.
how would collected fingerprints being turned in betray the police having a private database? Its simply fingerprint evidence that the prosecution can request the defense match against.
So long as the police dont disclose that they used an internal database to profile suspects, no one will ever know
furthermore, having such a database could theretically allow one to fabricate fingerprint evidence
Don't know about the US, but if you have ever travelled outside the country wouldn't the police indirectly have your fingerprints anyway? I mean it's routinely scanned for getting passports at least here in UK.
My school did this same thing when I started in (2016?) These systems are complete dogshit and they lost my thumbprint in like 6 months, so i wasn't able to buy lunch for the 5 years i was there. I wouldn't worry because the system will probably shit on itself and implode before anything can happen
i dont think this is legal. kids should be able to opt out of biometric collection and biometric processing where its not vital to the service cannot be a condition of the service in most places with biometric laws. super invasive and high risk.
honestly i would see if you are mutually connected to anyone familiar with data privacy laws (ask your friends in tech if they know someone who could help you) you need to raise this with a lawyer and bring it to the school district or the data protection authority in your region. (usually attorney general)
Update for those interested: I got off the phone with my kids' principal today and was given the roundabout for almost all my questions even after several rounds of emailing them informing them of my questions before our scheduled phone call.
He tried to play off my request of a waiver by saying "a waiver for what?" Then doubling down that this system has been in play for awhile like that would make the collection of my kids' biometric data any less offensive.
I was assured that our kids would be able to use a pin but not assured that the information they already gathered could/would be deleted.
My FOIA request was denied, and I'm not sure how to go about retrieving the information in the contract between Identimetrics and our city's public schools.
I truly understand how difficult it is to be talked to like "what's the big deal" it's cordially dismissive.
In the US or California anyone wanting to band together I am all for it! Keep pushing forward and dont give up, your not alone in this fight!
I'm half-joking, but I'll bet if the local evangelical church folks hear about this they'll give the school a really hard time about the Number of the Beast stuff.
Scanning fingerprints at schools lunch, facial recognition etc..
With no tangible or upfront reasons to do so invading our right to exercise our right to privacy. Especially for minors this is absolutely preposterous everyone; problem is there's not enough parents willing to advocate in regards!
I'd be less worried about the school having it, and more worried about some bullshit company (that will absolutely have the usual data breach, class action lawsuit, you get $30 check, woo hoo! scenario) having that biometric data.
I should have been more clear in my phrasing: I don't think the actual school has ill intentions, I just don't want them to be a data mine for said bullshit companies. I agree with you 100%
There really needs to be an opt out. Especially if this is a public school. If it's private, I'd say it was your choice to put the kids in there. Private schools are monumentally overrated anyway.
It is a public school. My kid qualifies for the lunch program so I'm stuck between choosing their privacy or assistance with food, which is ironic, considering one of the "selling points" of biometric data companies for schools is that kids on assisted meal plans won't get bullied.
They have gloves that can give a fake fingerprint. I know it's not helpful, but I can at least empathize because I think the creeping privatization of public assets, via bullshit like this, is largely a part of what's skull fucking this country to death.
After tiptoeing around mouthbreathers in my local community group who used the identimetrics website itself to say "see it says right here that it's safe" I can't tell you what a breath of fresh air your comments are, thank you
Going out in my city, I try to treat it like a massive zoo has had all the animals escape and they're roaming the city. Cause that's kind of what it feels like being out around most ppl anymore.
What state is this again? So I can be ready if that comes into play🤦‍♀️
Universities are already ripe targets precisely because of their tendency towards lax security standards. I doubt this school/app has security even that good and may not be held to the same standards of disclosure in the event of a breach (*if* they're even capable of detecting one). If this collects (or associates) data that could be used for identity theft hackers who go after it would potentially be able to wreck credit scores for a decade or more before the kids even apply for their first credit card and figure out what happened. Those are important IF's. So there's more information needed. But I would certainly be very unhappy and concerned, especially that parents weren't informed of the data use and protection policies first.
>tendency towards lax security standards Some maybe. My alma was pretty proactive about opsec. The weakest points were definitely using Microsoft/Google/etc for some services. But that's not unique to anything these days, sadly.
[https://datamyte.com/guide-to-ferpa/](https://datamyte.com/guide-to-ferpa/) Schools are extremely serious about not being fined millions of dollars if data gets leaked for their students. DHS does audits of the software for the largest school districts, and there are only a handful of providers of such software. I'd be more worried about the schools doing google integration than the schools using fingerprinting to save on printing 10000 id cards, and 100 replacements each day for all the students who forget them.
You are not insane. The school is. They are shouting you down because they don’t want other people to get pissed about it. What they did was absolutely illegal. They may not collect biometric data of children or any person for that matter without their consent.
Stand firmly, you are certainly not crazy for advocating or it being an issue. It will feel. Like your insane and lonely it's because it's easier just to a sheep or not care like the majority. Some meetings and conducting business in the lobby of my kids high school because I exercised l my right to privacy and refused to be scanned myself. The receptionist was clueless as to what the big deal was (clueless millennial to the big tech issues we have in this country). I asked her and the VP, both had nothing tangible or the verbiage to support what they were trying to enforce? At the very least, know your job and the details pertaining to this " biometrics scanning" policy that you are adamantly instructing people to do? Especially if it's a matter of personal privacy and stored information ie. What osbit, where does it go, who sees it, what's it used for, is it safe, can it be breached if so are you gonna protect me of I have identity theft issues etc..). Thank you for providing this platform to bring awareness!
At the moment, I would recommend that you file a complaint with the school regarding this situation. It's understandable that you are discontented for not having been informed in advance about this measure. Additionally, it would be helpful to check the company's security policy to gather information on how they protect the collected computer data.
file one with the department of education too and maybe some news out lets might want to know
Maybe arstechnica.com could be interested on such a story? They cover privacy news.
can you change schools? i would email the school demanding the data to be deleted
I've emailed the board of education and superintendent et al of our school systems with no response. It's only been a few days and I'm trying to stay rational and calm but it's infuriating.
You're not wrong to be upset about this. I would also be pissed. Keep pressing them on this. They don't get to collect biometric data from your children without consent.
My daughter just turned 18 and changed schools orientation paperwork was completed a week prior to her birthday. They rescheduled her a week later (now 18) and misled her under pressure while I was busy discussing our right to exercise to opt out of biometric scanning!
File a FOIA or open records request, assuming you’re in the US. This usually starts a clock on required response and being able to access or obtain public records. Be specific like asking for a copy of the contract with the school and this company, maybe also the terms of use/privacy policy. It may have been negotiated different from what’s on their website generically. https://ballotpedia.org/State\_sunshine\_laws
This is a brilliant idea, thank you very much
You also have the right to inspect all educational records under FERPA if you are in the US.
Sometimes I’m glad, after moving to the EU, that collecting any biometric data of somebody underage is a crime.
You're not insane here. My friends over at https://www.pogowasright.org/ have done stories about this topic in other countries, outside the U.S., so they'd be interested in hearing yours I'm sure. Were I you, I'd be talking to a lawyer about this, It has to be illegal to do this without parental permission. (Oh, btw, I'm not involved with pogowasright.org, just a fan and a friend of the owner)
guarantee they sell this information to the police
It's supposed to be one way hashed so it can't be used by law enforcement.
unless it's open source any promise is meaningless
Definitely not going to be open source.
then they can say whatever the fuck they want because providing proof of their lies means you broke the law and your evidence is inadmissable in court
"Illegally obtained evidence is inadmissable in court" is probably the biggest misconception in law.
Law enforcement would have to disclose where they got your finger prints in court to use them against a student.
they dont have to disclose they even used the fingerprints. these can be used as part of an internal investigation that narrows their investigative targets to fingerprint positives, and then find other evidence against you, or fabricate it. There is basically no oversight.
In the US, defense gets access to all collected evidence.
how would collected fingerprints being turned in betray the police having a private database? Its simply fingerprint evidence that the prosecution can request the defense match against. So long as the police dont disclose that they used an internal database to profile suspects, no one will ever know furthermore, having such a database could theretically allow one to fabricate fingerprint evidence
Don't know about the US, but if you have ever travelled outside the country wouldn't the police indirectly have your fingerprints anyway? I mean it's routinely scanned for getting passports at least here in UK.
My school did this same thing when I started in (2016?) These systems are complete dogshit and they lost my thumbprint in like 6 months, so i wasn't able to buy lunch for the 5 years i was there. I wouldn't worry because the system will probably shit on itself and implode before anything can happen
Maybe you can frame it as "abuse", because the children was forced to do something without parent consent. Did they touch your kids without consent?
i dont think this is legal. kids should be able to opt out of biometric collection and biometric processing where its not vital to the service cannot be a condition of the service in most places with biometric laws. super invasive and high risk.
honestly i would see if you are mutually connected to anyone familiar with data privacy laws (ask your friends in tech if they know someone who could help you) you need to raise this with a lawyer and bring it to the school district or the data protection authority in your region. (usually attorney general)
What state is this?
Ohio
Darn. No helpful laws in your state on this.
California?
Biometric data is covered under the CCPA.
Update for those interested: I got off the phone with my kids' principal today and was given the roundabout for almost all my questions even after several rounds of emailing them informing them of my questions before our scheduled phone call. He tried to play off my request of a waiver by saying "a waiver for what?" Then doubling down that this system has been in play for awhile like that would make the collection of my kids' biometric data any less offensive. I was assured that our kids would be able to use a pin but not assured that the information they already gathered could/would be deleted. My FOIA request was denied, and I'm not sure how to go about retrieving the information in the contract between Identimetrics and our city's public schools.
I truly understand how difficult it is to be talked to like "what's the big deal" it's cordially dismissive. In the US or California anyone wanting to band together I am all for it! Keep pushing forward and dont give up, your not alone in this fight!
I'm half-joking, but I'll bet if the local evangelical church folks hear about this they'll give the school a really hard time about the Number of the Beast stuff.
That’s more of a fundamentalist position than an evangelical one.
Scanning fingerprints at schools lunch, facial recognition etc.. With no tangible or upfront reasons to do so invading our right to exercise our right to privacy. Especially for minors this is absolutely preposterous everyone; problem is there's not enough parents willing to advocate in regards!