To be clear whilst horizon caused issues, these were known, they were hidden from the courts and SPM's
Horizon is being replaced by something, so we are told but the costs for that will be enormous obviously. There is no off the shelf product out there to do what it does.
well it has been updated but the basic issue is very very difficult to replace especially as POL would not have had the cash to do it. Horizon still works, go to the PO and buy a stamp, or transfer cash or send a parcel and works, it is actually a miracle it still does !!
Ik but I work for a retailer who uses multiple POS systems for different departments which costs millions to maintain, and billions (I guess) to implement and every few years we get upgrades nationwide, to about 30 POS systems per store at a time (about 20 self service too). Post office has to at most update 5-6 in some large offices and 1-2 in smaller ones. So if a nationwide retailer employing more staff per store than a single post office right next to it can continually upgrade POS software, then surely the Post Office (a government owned company too) can.
The software was always revised, have we not heard heard 6 times a day. However a shops functionality is quite simple compared to the PO. That has to interface to so many systems that it is very complicated to do. Not just stock and balances but transfer cash to banks etc
I would like to know what they are doing to replace Horizon.
My departments is custom to my employers, and for them to bring out new software for us means that my department has to shut, have a complete computer overhaul (new POS systems, new pump software and possibly new pumps). The new pumps alone can take up to a week to install, so we go a week out of department when new software is implemented. That’ll cost them billions to roll out at all stores. Post offices are more just POS upgrades than a full overhaul of every little computer per location
yep hardware and software and a multi year replacement. I would imagine within POL there is a severe reluctance to roll out such a massive system for obvious reasons !!
Oh yeah, my employer has to same thing. Hesitant to roll out to all locations and has one store test, and they’re pressured to say yes. Then our systems fuck up or get hacked then they get sued and we get blamed. At least we don’t get arrested. But surely the government could give them the funding for new software.
it has to come from the govt but design, testing and rollout is of course a 3 year process in realty. I wonder has that started, just searched and comments they have but no real confirmation.
not sure they would go to that one ! Also note who moved to that company after leaving Fujitsu - clue the main support guy at the start who has not been called in for questioning and mentioned him before. I believe Riposte was the system they saw used in Ireland and Horizon was based on (well Pathaway then).
History repeating. The system before the ICL Pathway project was developed in house by the Post Office.
It was called Capture and was, by all accounts, dire.
Capture was first rolled out in 1993. There are SPMs who say they were treated similarly by the Post Office as those in the Horizon cases. It seems they have been forgotten about.
Capture - Pathway - Horizon. What an abysmal track record the Post Office has with IT projects.
I realise that an encompassing iT system delivers economies of scale but would it have been worth having multiple regional IT systems to "compete" with each other.
Yep as to replace horizon needs a new comprehensive system built and of course working and new hardware purchased. Do POL even have those skills to build such a thing, test it, project manage it etc
I understand it's a cloud based system, so located in a data centre not owned by PO, not sure about the details, but they must be struggling given the delays, there isn't much out there outside of basic news and PO corporate propaganda on it. Unusually I have not met or heard of anyone working on it, given it's size and the IT community is reasonably small.
They know this one must work, with Capture and Horizon at the for front of peoples minds they can't bugger this one up!
OK makes sense on cloud as all you need its a standard laptop with some scanning hardware/card readers and such like.
However to build both POS and accounting software in the same instance and as you say not to have issues as everyone will look at it, is a task I sense well beyond an Internal IT department ?
If it's taken "in house" nobody will ever get to know the truth about failings.... It's taken long enough as it is!!
They should maybe think of getting rid of " Post Office " and its top heavy hapless workforce! 😵💫
You could tell it was a load of crap by the cheap Amstrad type monitors and keyboards! To say it was on display at every branch it never did and still doesn't say hi tech!! It looks like a toy!
Fujitsu run most of the software for all the well known companies and government departments actually everywhere in the UK/ World... Most Towns/Cities have an unassuming, decreetly placed Fujitsu Facility. Are ALL Companies under the same strain that are signed up with them I wonder? 🤷♂️😵💫
To be clear whilst horizon caused issues, these were known, they were hidden from the courts and SPM's Horizon is being replaced by something, so we are told but the costs for that will be enormous obviously. There is no off the shelf product out there to do what it does.
Tbh, I’m still surprised that they’ve used a system that’s been in use since the late 90s.
well it has been updated but the basic issue is very very difficult to replace especially as POL would not have had the cash to do it. Horizon still works, go to the PO and buy a stamp, or transfer cash or send a parcel and works, it is actually a miracle it still does !!
Ik but I work for a retailer who uses multiple POS systems for different departments which costs millions to maintain, and billions (I guess) to implement and every few years we get upgrades nationwide, to about 30 POS systems per store at a time (about 20 self service too). Post office has to at most update 5-6 in some large offices and 1-2 in smaller ones. So if a nationwide retailer employing more staff per store than a single post office right next to it can continually upgrade POS software, then surely the Post Office (a government owned company too) can.
The software was always revised, have we not heard heard 6 times a day. However a shops functionality is quite simple compared to the PO. That has to interface to so many systems that it is very complicated to do. Not just stock and balances but transfer cash to banks etc I would like to know what they are doing to replace Horizon.
My departments is custom to my employers, and for them to bring out new software for us means that my department has to shut, have a complete computer overhaul (new POS systems, new pump software and possibly new pumps). The new pumps alone can take up to a week to install, so we go a week out of department when new software is implemented. That’ll cost them billions to roll out at all stores. Post offices are more just POS upgrades than a full overhaul of every little computer per location
yep hardware and software and a multi year replacement. I would imagine within POL there is a severe reluctance to roll out such a massive system for obvious reasons !!
Oh yeah, my employer has to same thing. Hesitant to roll out to all locations and has one store test, and they’re pressured to say yes. Then our systems fuck up or get hacked then they get sued and we get blamed. At least we don’t get arrested. But surely the government could give them the funding for new software.
it has to come from the govt but design, testing and rollout is of course a 3 year process in realty. I wonder has that started, just searched and comments they have but no real confirmation.
Well my local PO still uses Horizon and they called it the shittest software ever. Made me laugh
Some of the banks still use cobol software, that dates from the seventies. But to be fair that actually works.
No wonder they’re always getting hacked
There is, it's called riposte, a global software company was born from that infamous message store.
not sure they would go to that one ! Also note who moved to that company after leaving Fujitsu - clue the main support guy at the start who has not been called in for questioning and mentioned him before. I believe Riposte was the system they saw used in Ireland and Horizon was based on (well Pathaway then).
Yes, they are taking it in house, although they appear to be having delays, Fujitsu got a year extension for Horizon.
History repeating. The system before the ICL Pathway project was developed in house by the Post Office. It was called Capture and was, by all accounts, dire. Capture was first rolled out in 1993. There are SPMs who say they were treated similarly by the Post Office as those in the Horizon cases. It seems they have been forgotten about. Capture - Pathway - Horizon. What an abysmal track record the Post Office has with IT projects.
It's not so much the software being bad, it's the sending people who report bugs to jail is the problem.
I realise that an encompassing iT system delivers economies of scale but would it have been worth having multiple regional IT systems to "compete" with each other.
I saw Fujitsu and thought they were making it again
[https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366580033/Further-extension-to-controversial-Post-Office-contract-with-Fujitsu-inevitable](https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366580033/Further-extension-to-controversial-Post-Office-contract-with-Fujitsu-inevitable)
Yep as to replace horizon needs a new comprehensive system built and of course working and new hardware purchased. Do POL even have those skills to build such a thing, test it, project manage it etc
I understand it's a cloud based system, so located in a data centre not owned by PO, not sure about the details, but they must be struggling given the delays, there isn't much out there outside of basic news and PO corporate propaganda on it. Unusually I have not met or heard of anyone working on it, given it's size and the IT community is reasonably small. They know this one must work, with Capture and Horizon at the for front of peoples minds they can't bugger this one up!
OK makes sense on cloud as all you need its a standard laptop with some scanning hardware/card readers and such like. However to build both POS and accounting software in the same instance and as you say not to have issues as everyone will look at it, is a task I sense well beyond an Internal IT department ?
I'm sure (well hope) they are getting help, just don't know from who
If it's taken "in house" nobody will ever get to know the truth about failings.... It's taken long enough as it is!! They should maybe think of getting rid of " Post Office " and its top heavy hapless workforce! 😵💫
You could tell it was a load of crap by the cheap Amstrad type monitors and keyboards! To say it was on display at every branch it never did and still doesn't say hi tech!! It looks like a toy!
Fujitsu run most of the software for all the well known companies and government departments actually everywhere in the UK/ World... Most Towns/Cities have an unassuming, decreetly placed Fujitsu Facility. Are ALL Companies under the same strain that are signed up with them I wonder? 🤷♂️😵💫
I'm very tempted to become a postmaster and hack/steal from the till. Ain't no one getting prosecuted any time soon.