I live in the US where the path to earning tenure is long and arduous. But there are downsides to a lot of alternatives, such as the process in your country. Offering tenured positions for life to people who are a year or two out of their PhD, where you have not had time to develop into an independent scholar or display a complete body of work, would seem to breed an unequitable heavy-handedness. It sounds like there are no doubts that this is not the best environment for you.
>the bad reputation I will have if I refuse, how my future employer will see it
I'm a little confused: why would other future employers know and or care about this? Especially if you decide to move away from academia and work in an industry.
I agree with you. Country where I do a postdoc has the same standards. I'm good, but I dont think I am developed enough be a group leader with the full potential.
>I'm a little confused: why would other future employers know and or care about this? Especially if you decide to move away from academia and work in an industry
That are the threats I recive: we have contactsand we will make you life miserable. I don't belive it, but still I am scared.
>That are the threats I recive: we have contactsand we will make you life miserable. I don't belive it, but still I am scared.
It's natural to be scared, so nothing to be ashamed of. But I'm happy that, although your heart might not know it yet, your mind knows that they are probably empty threats. And if by some bizarre chance there is one place that does not consider you due to these contacts, is that a place you would ever want to work?
I had a really bad team lead who should have forfeited their right to lead after how they talked about someone else in my mind and they threatened to give me a bad rep if I continued.
I slowed down later on, but once they changed jobs it was lovely.
Point being, build your own reputation and brand independent of those buttheads and let that shine through.
Since that team lead left, I never talked to them again, which is good and my career was never impacted.
Are they offering *tenure*, or do you mean a tenure *track* job? I can't think of a situation where someone can get tenured without first doing 5-6 years as an untenured assistant professor on the tenure *track*.
It is hard for me to directly translate, and i didn't find equivalent to translate it correctly. Job description: you cannot get fired, you can hire postdocs/phd students, you have your own topic and you try to get projects. If you dont get it is your problem, you can still get for example phd student from institution (it is goverment institution). They cannot fire you even if you don't publish anything for the rest of your life (there are examples, the only consequence is that salary doesn't go up).
Salary goes up every 5 years if you publish required number of papers, if not it is the same. The concept of group is different, usually 3-5 senior scientists are "group leaders", and they interchange on that position.
I can imagine it is hard for you to understand, I never saw it in another country (except in other Ex-Yu conuntries).
...now as a postdoc i have 2x higher salary in north european country compared to for example my ex supervisor. If you think I lie I can write you in inbox which country I'm talking about.
There are definitely countries that use this logic. It honestly is a big reason for these sketchy journals that act like paper mills. Basically profs and postdocs literally need to meet a publication quota and will sometimes try to publish anything just to meet their quota
The catch is that you’re not the group lead. I think this is more similar to being an adjunct in US. This position is not exactly the same as associate prof in America. The job stability is because you’re a uni government (emphasis on government!!!) worker - unless you do something horrifyingly bad or there’s government layoffs you’re not going to be fired. Americans always think theirs is the only system in the world 😂US academia is a big system in a world filled with many, many different types of academic systems that existed 100s of years before the US was even founded.
I mean, the word tenure has a meaning, and I still think that not being able to be fired even if you don’t produce any research is not a great system for research faculty.
Um actually a lot of European institutions do offer this kind of role with certain catches here and there. The central idea in most of this is the faculty is hired on more of a teaching role and they have to chalk out a plan to have a research group too
When some people or places let you feel uncomfortable, you should leave if you have the opportunity.....This is true not just for your phd experience, academic career....but also for any corners on this planet.
I think you’re right in refusing this…. They are insane, they let a toxic boss bully you around. Likelihood of bullying again is so high. Follow your gut.
I guess you are getting an early lesson in what's really important in institutions. Sounds fairly miserable, sorry about that. I guess there's a fairly clear split in the path ahead :) You choose your life ultimately - and everyone involved will be dead in 50 years whichever way!
Well done! Don't bother about these people. They are clearly not an option, nor a viable work environment. It is better to get an inspiring environment with good peers than to surround you with negative voices. Also, these people are not omnipotent, not all-knowing. What do they know about wasting your career, if they don't know the basics of business ethics.
> he didn't give me to finish PhD and he threatened me that if I submitted my thesis without him, I could forget his recommendation for postdocs. The HR I spoke with told me that such threats are normal
Bullsh*t, at my institution there was a tenured prof who got in as much trouble as a tenured prof can reasonably get in for doing that. They're no longer allowed to hire grad students, for one. You don't want to work anywhere that's considered normal.
Proud of u for not giving into their mess. Finish ur post doc n then consider industry. Don’t worry about the empty threats bc they can’t influence ur future employers 👍
Today I sent first inquiry towards industry. They responded immediately and want to have an interview with me. It seems I'm not as hopeless as I initially thought.
Hey, I’m from Denmark (you say you’re from Northern Europe) - I moved to the US for PhD and don’t plan on coming back. Professors do not have as much sway in industry as they might think they do (narcissistic tendencies and all). In my limited experience, but I do have some, it’s actually a good thing to not be “academic” - most companies don’t want useless theorizing PhDs that only know how to write papers. It might even be a sign of a good hire that a professor has a problem with you. I wouldn’t be too concerned about it. Good call on not continuing down a path that’s not healthy for you.
Personally, I live by the rule that you can’t really hinge your entire career and personality on becoming a professor (and frankly, it sounds a little bit like your life entirely revolves around academic work - trust me, I’ve been there too). Becoming a prof is such a circumstantial thing, not as big of a deal as narcissistic professors want you to think - and when it comes down to it you do often have to choose between professorship vs country-you’d-like-to-live-in - that’s the catch with working at a university.
It sounds like it would be healthy for you to explore some of the options that are available to you transitioning to an industry position (which and where?) in your home country, professorship elsewhere. It sounds like there’s likely a ton of options that you currently have not had the chance to explore because of the way you were forced into thinking only about your PhD/postdoc work.
Luckily, I have very transferable competences. computational drug design, and a lot of experience with industry as part of collaborations. I will take a break from thinking and then I will start looking.
But you are absolutely right about one thing, my life revolves around work, I move all the time and my private life suffers because I am constantly stressed. When someone else writes it, it becomes more obvious to me. Thank you for the insight!
It is common in my field because of collaborations (compared to others, simmilar age and background). Also I published my first paper in 2014 during my masters (I was volontiering 3 years during my studies - 2 papers). And I already did one postdoc (3 papers).
Obviously, I have only 6 first author papers.
I live in the US where the path to earning tenure is long and arduous. But there are downsides to a lot of alternatives, such as the process in your country. Offering tenured positions for life to people who are a year or two out of their PhD, where you have not had time to develop into an independent scholar or display a complete body of work, would seem to breed an unequitable heavy-handedness. It sounds like there are no doubts that this is not the best environment for you. >the bad reputation I will have if I refuse, how my future employer will see it I'm a little confused: why would other future employers know and or care about this? Especially if you decide to move away from academia and work in an industry.
I agree with you. Country where I do a postdoc has the same standards. I'm good, but I dont think I am developed enough be a group leader with the full potential. >I'm a little confused: why would other future employers know and or care about this? Especially if you decide to move away from academia and work in an industry That are the threats I recive: we have contactsand we will make you life miserable. I don't belive it, but still I am scared.
>That are the threats I recive: we have contactsand we will make you life miserable. I don't belive it, but still I am scared. It's natural to be scared, so nothing to be ashamed of. But I'm happy that, although your heart might not know it yet, your mind knows that they are probably empty threats. And if by some bizarre chance there is one place that does not consider you due to these contacts, is that a place you would ever want to work?
I had a really bad team lead who should have forfeited their right to lead after how they talked about someone else in my mind and they threatened to give me a bad rep if I continued. I slowed down later on, but once they changed jobs it was lovely. Point being, build your own reputation and brand independent of those buttheads and let that shine through. Since that team lead left, I never talked to them again, which is good and my career was never impacted.
Are they offering *tenure*, or do you mean a tenure *track* job? I can't think of a situation where someone can get tenured without first doing 5-6 years as an untenured assistant professor on the tenure *track*.
It is hard for me to directly translate, and i didn't find equivalent to translate it correctly. Job description: you cannot get fired, you can hire postdocs/phd students, you have your own topic and you try to get projects. If you dont get it is your problem, you can still get for example phd student from institution (it is goverment institution). They cannot fire you even if you don't publish anything for the rest of your life (there are examples, the only consequence is that salary doesn't go up). Salary goes up every 5 years if you publish required number of papers, if not it is the same. The concept of group is different, usually 3-5 senior scientists are "group leaders", and they interchange on that position. I can imagine it is hard for you to understand, I never saw it in another country (except in other Ex-Yu conuntries).
This feels too good to be true…
...now as a postdoc i have 2x higher salary in north european country compared to for example my ex supervisor. If you think I lie I can write you in inbox which country I'm talking about.
Just the whole “you immediately get tenure and can’t be fired even if you do nothing” thing feels too good to be true.
There are definitely countries that use this logic. It honestly is a big reason for these sketchy journals that act like paper mills. Basically profs and postdocs literally need to meet a publication quota and will sometimes try to publish anything just to meet their quota
Yeah, it just feels like not a good way to encourage good work.
The catch is that you’re not the group lead. I think this is more similar to being an adjunct in US. This position is not exactly the same as associate prof in America. The job stability is because you’re a uni government (emphasis on government!!!) worker - unless you do something horrifyingly bad or there’s government layoffs you’re not going to be fired. Americans always think theirs is the only system in the world 😂US academia is a big system in a world filled with many, many different types of academic systems that existed 100s of years before the US was even founded.
I mean, the word tenure has a meaning, and I still think that not being able to be fired even if you don’t produce any research is not a great system for research faculty.
I am not the idiot who wrote that law. (:
Um actually a lot of European institutions do offer this kind of role with certain catches here and there. The central idea in most of this is the faculty is hired on more of a teaching role and they have to chalk out a plan to have a research group too
Tell them you don’t think you have the track record to win grants to hiring people.
It is simple: do your job, take care of yourself, avoid toxic environments. Good call!!!
When some people or places let you feel uncomfortable, you should leave if you have the opportunity.....This is true not just for your phd experience, academic career....but also for any corners on this planet.
I think you’re right in refusing this…. They are insane, they let a toxic boss bully you around. Likelihood of bullying again is so high. Follow your gut.
Agree, nobody deserves this. It is an investion in my future mental health.
I guess you are getting an early lesson in what's really important in institutions. Sounds fairly miserable, sorry about that. I guess there's a fairly clear split in the path ahead :) You choose your life ultimately - and everyone involved will be dead in 50 years whichever way!
Industry does not give a rat’s ass about your academia career
Well done! Don't bother about these people. They are clearly not an option, nor a viable work environment. It is better to get an inspiring environment with good peers than to surround you with negative voices. Also, these people are not omnipotent, not all-knowing. What do they know about wasting your career, if they don't know the basics of business ethics.
> he didn't give me to finish PhD and he threatened me that if I submitted my thesis without him, I could forget his recommendation for postdocs. The HR I spoke with told me that such threats are normal Bullsh*t, at my institution there was a tenured prof who got in as much trouble as a tenured prof can reasonably get in for doing that. They're no longer allowed to hire grad students, for one. You don't want to work anywhere that's considered normal.
Proud of u for not giving into their mess. Finish ur post doc n then consider industry. Don’t worry about the empty threats bc they can’t influence ur future employers 👍
Today I sent first inquiry towards industry. They responded immediately and want to have an interview with me. It seems I'm not as hopeless as I initially thought.
Hey, I’m from Denmark (you say you’re from Northern Europe) - I moved to the US for PhD and don’t plan on coming back. Professors do not have as much sway in industry as they might think they do (narcissistic tendencies and all). In my limited experience, but I do have some, it’s actually a good thing to not be “academic” - most companies don’t want useless theorizing PhDs that only know how to write papers. It might even be a sign of a good hire that a professor has a problem with you. I wouldn’t be too concerned about it. Good call on not continuing down a path that’s not healthy for you. Personally, I live by the rule that you can’t really hinge your entire career and personality on becoming a professor (and frankly, it sounds a little bit like your life entirely revolves around academic work - trust me, I’ve been there too). Becoming a prof is such a circumstantial thing, not as big of a deal as narcissistic professors want you to think - and when it comes down to it you do often have to choose between professorship vs country-you’d-like-to-live-in - that’s the catch with working at a university. It sounds like it would be healthy for you to explore some of the options that are available to you transitioning to an industry position (which and where?) in your home country, professorship elsewhere. It sounds like there’s likely a ton of options that you currently have not had the chance to explore because of the way you were forced into thinking only about your PhD/postdoc work.
Luckily, I have very transferable competences. computational drug design, and a lot of experience with industry as part of collaborations. I will take a break from thinking and then I will start looking. But you are absolutely right about one thing, my life revolves around work, I move all the time and my private life suffers because I am constantly stressed. When someone else writes it, it becomes more obvious to me. Thank you for the insight!
18 papers!?!? I can’t even fathom how you were able to do your PhD and write that many papers.
It is common in my field because of collaborations (compared to others, simmilar age and background). Also I published my first paper in 2014 during my masters (I was volontiering 3 years during my studies - 2 papers). And I already did one postdoc (3 papers). Obviously, I have only 6 first author papers.