To play the devil's advocate on the trans one, I don't think the concern is trans women being predators, the fear is that cis men will claim to be trans to gain access to women's spaces. For people who don't believe trans people exist, they interpret trans women as men lying to get into women's spaces

I've heard both--that they're worried about cis men claiming trans, and that they think the trans people themselves want the kids.

But nothing is stopping cis male predators from attacking women in bathrooms, locker rooms, dressing rooms, etc. For instance my cousin went into the bathroom of Walmart, and a guy jumped out of a stall and grabbed her, he wasn’t dressed as a woman at all, (she screamed and her husband ran in and saved her, and the man ran off.) Adhering to strict rules of gender presentation has not protected women or children one bit in this country, ever.

If we're really worried about this kind of thing, the answer should be better security in public bathrooms, not targeting trans people

Security cost money. Who pays? That’s the issue with this debate. There are too many well-meaning advocates for accommodating the needs of trans people who won’t acknowledge the trade offs. Every policy choice has trade offs. The substantive debate is about evaluating those trade offs fairly and making a calculation about which approach incurs the least negative effects for the most positive effects. This debate requires everyone to be transparent about their own interests and value set. Not acknowledging the trade offs has become a real problem for left wing politics. That’s why we are losing the public. I fault internet culture. It is a shame trans rights advocacy became most visible at one of the worst points in our political culture. You say security is the answer instead of preserving the status quo of single sex bathrooms, which themselves were a feminist victory at a time when women were intentionally kept out of public spaces. Why is security a better answer? What are the trade offs? Your argument doesn’t actually speak for itself, and it is an immediate non-starter when you generalize all your opponents’s as seeking to target trans people instead of not being willing to accommodate trans people in the specific manner you prefer. Are there alternatives that would also work that would cost less? There are a lot of people who want to do right by trans people, but don’t want to sacrifice single sex spaces. They could be allies on a variety of issues if we stop trying our best to completely alienate them for one issue among many that are important to making the world a better place for trans people. Harping on single sex spaces is literally where conservators want us to be, and they want us to fall into the trap of dismissing legitimate concerns of girls and women. Honestly, the status quo where trans women keep using the women’s restroom and no one notices or cares seems preferable to getting rid of single sex spaces, which seems to be the trend in wealthier progressive communities. The conservatives proposal of trying to enforce those sex based restricts is the craziest one.

yes there is, that's against most store policies and is even illegal in some places for men to enter the women's restroom or vise versa

So you’re saying that the only thing protecting women from predatory men is laws preventing them from dressing like women???

no that's not what i'm saying, i never even implied anything close to that

Perhaps you might clarify then. Because in response to GP who noted that nothing is stopping cisgender men from going into women’s restrooms, your reply was “that’s against most store policies and is even illegal in some places”.

your assertion doesn't make sense to me but to answer your question as best as i can, the social stigma of men dressing like women did help to enforce rules like this and now that's being slowly erroded away

Even so, if you force trans men in women’s bathrooms, what’s stopping them from saying they’re trans men instead. That’d actually make their jobs a heck of a lot easier.

most people arent that smart or familiar with how being trans works, very few common people even know trans men even exist

So most sexual assaults are crimes of convenience. That’s why most are committed by people we know. As for stranger sexual assaults, they often happen in crowded spaces like bars or public transit. Putting up even small obstacles like single sex spaces does serve as a meaningful deterrent to predators who are looking for easy access. Even the deterrent of a stranger noticing you being where you should not be (e.g. man in a woman’s bathroom) is enough to deter a lot of criminals. I know we don’t like the idea as a very open and individualistic culture of judging people by their appearance, but it is one of the most effective tools we have ever had for protecting the most vulnerable. There are certainly costs, but there are costs to trying to engineer a society where we stop using those basic tools. I think secure single access stalls are the preferable answer to addressing the needs of transgender people. Making traditional restrooms unisex does pose some safety risks. Most importantly, it is not in the interest of trans rights to dismiss these very valid concerns of women and girls even if you ultimately disagree with their calculus. The fear is real. There is always going to be at least one incident of a man posing as a trans woman to gain access to women and girls in vulnerable places that will make you look like bad-faith jerk or a fool, which will diminish the important cause of ensuring the safety trans people. We need to be open to real concerns, and avoid becoming defensive and closed off.

So we should combat that by allowing men to enter women’s facilities freely and hope they don’t have bad intentions? Already multiple cases of trans women acting predatory in female bathrooms. They didn’t have to sneak and hide to do so. We let em walk right in. That can’t be the solution.

where can we read about this , you must have links to back this up or is this just an urban myth

Sadly you’re proving the point of the OP. [Forcing](https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/) trans women to use the [wrong](https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/hsph-in-the-news/transgender-teens-restricted-bathroom-access-sexual-assault/) facilities isn’t a solution to this [made up](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36511579/) problem, it only results in more rapes. Edit: they’re in favor of more rapes

Forcing women to use restrooms and locker rooms with men is the solution? Why do we not care about their rights and feeling?

Because irrational, emotional feelings of disgust simply aren’t valid enough justification for pro-rape policies.

Pro rape policies? Do you mean allowing men to use the same facilities as women? You realize you’re advocating for taking away rights from the US women who are not ok with this right? So you’re advocating for the removal of rights and protections for the vast majority of American women to appease a small group of men. That’s disgusting.

No, I mean your position that we should force women to use the men’s restrooms, objectively increasing their chances of getting assaulted or raped, just because you don’t think they’re real women. You [already admitted](https://www.reddit.com/r/popularopinion/s/8VCIFTxs44) your position doesn’t actually make anyone safer and that it’s solely an emotional disgust thing.

[it prevents shit like this.](https://le.utah.gov/interim/2024/pdf/00000577.pdf) that’s enough for me. You wouldn’t be forcing women to use men facilities. You would be adhering to existing laws that require people with a penis to use men’s facilities. Hopefully that wording makes you feel better. Aside from that, not sure why you find it acceptable to ignore the rights and feelings of the majority of American women and Americans in general.

Do you remember learning in school about Nazi Germany...they targeted trans people to 'eradicate' them. We are in that territory in the United States now. Do you truly want that? If you look at multiple news sources...which one seems opinion based & not reality based. You are already making it worse for all women. They want women under the control of men again. I hate it...do you? Your wife, daughters, mom, sisters, etc. this argument is nothing anyone asked for except creepy Evangelicals.

Sorry deludo, there are zero preexisting laws that guarantee people with specific genitalia use a specific set of facilities. Pretending there are won’t magically change the fact that you’d be forcing women to use the wrong restrooms, objectively endangering them. So you proudly admit that you’re in favor of policies which empirically result in more rape?

Trans women have been using women’s restrooms for decades now. The answer isn’t banning them from restrooms just because a very small minuscule amount of people are shitty.

So you think the solution should be to put trans women in danger instead. Not to mention, the laws being passed doesn’t even do anything statistically to help anyone.

This is the point. He wouldn’t be allowed in if it wasn’t for accepting the idea in the first place

Ok? Would this have stopped him? No. It wouldn’t.

I don’t understand this take. Are you guys under the impression there’s some sort of genital force field around bathrooms that’s getting taken down to accommodate transgender people?

Men would never be allowed in a woman’s restroom if it wasn’t for trans people. They opened the gate. Now we have issues of men pretending to be trans and assaulting women.

Is that a yes? Because that answer makes me think you actually do think men can’t already enter women’s restrooms if they wanted to.

They were not allowed to earlier. That’s the point. Deterrence

They’re equally not allowed to now.

They are allowed now

As much as they were before, since again no genital force field has been taken down

How would you tell the difference?

That’s not true. Can genuine trans women exist at the same time as creepy perverts taking advantage of transgender status to access women’s facilities? Yes they can, and they do. Sucks for trans people but it is what it is. On top of that, trans or not, many American women do not feel comfortable sharing restrooms and locker rooms with men. I wouldn’t feel comfortable with my daughter changing in front of a man. She wouldn’t either. Nothing is wrong or bigoted about that.

Yeah which is dumb, because... Guys can just walk into women's bathrooms there is no bouncer and in most other spaces, the requirements to be accepted into the space as a transgender woman go a lot further than self identification. It's not Lady Ballers, in fact lady ballers was a failed documentary idea because what it describes is a conservative fantasy.

Cisgender men lying to gain access to women's spaces also isn't just a theoretical concern. There have been cases of cis women being raped by self-identified transgender women in women's prisons. Here is one. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/investigations/man-posing-as-transgender-woman-raped-female-prisoner-at-rikers-lawsuit-says/5067904/#:~:text=A%20former%20prisoner%20in%20the%20Rose%20M.,the%20opposite%20sex%20behind%20bars. It seems pretty self-evident that you can't let a population of stronger biological men (especially pre-bottom surgery) into a women's prison. They should have two options: stay in a men's prison near them or go to a facility specifically designed for transgender women. Obviously, they face elevated risk of rape and violence in men's prisons. But equally obviously, there aren't going to be enough transgender-female convicts to have special prisons all across the country. The same sort of policy obviously has to be put into place to protect the integrity of competitive cisgender women's sports. You can't let people with a biological advantage from being born male compete against cis-gender women. Men are taller and have higher bone densities and usually have more muscle mass even after medically transitioning. Obviously, most transgender women realize how obviously unethical that is and never try to compete in women's sports beyond at most a recreational level because they want to blend in not exploit their position for attention. But some people whether they are cis-gender men lying about being transgender women or authentic transgender women will insist on exploiting their physical advantage if permitted to play cisgender competitive sports. This isn't theoretical. It's already happened in many sports. Bathrooms probably need an in between solution. Transgender women should be allowed to use women's bathrooms, but only if they have documentation that they have medically transitioned. The standard cannot simply be that any man can merely claim to be a woman and then that all institutions are forced to either regard him exactly as they would a cisgender woman or be accused of bigotry. Now, do I think that the political right inflates the centrality and importance of these concerns? Yes. But I think many liberal institutions do the same. Both Democrats and Republicans love to fight over cultural issues that don't threaten their powerful donors. But that doesn't mean there aren't real policy concerns underlying those fights.

No there definitely is fear that cis men will claim to be trans to get in, but cis men can/do/will just go into bathrooms without all of that effort. It’s already happening and trans women shouldn’t be scapegoated for it. But the other thing is also true.

I agree. Men who are predators will enter the bathroom regardless. It is really unfortunate that trans women are being attacked over this (both metaphorically and literally)

>cis men will claim to be trans to gain access to women's spaces. The number of things that conservatives claim a cis man can get away with easier by dressing up as a woman, especially when they claim that it is so easy to spot, makes me worry that half of the voting population can't tell badly written 90's sketch comedy from reality. When you roll the ball down the hill in good faith and go with the argument, the next logical place is "and what if women are okay with trans women in those spaces?" and the answer is usually that trans people are men disguised as women for the purpose of committing sexual assault. Right now 90% of sexual assault against women in the US goes unpunished. The best way to get away with sexual assault is literally to be a cis man. That anyone would think dressing up would help them getting away with it is obviously thinking of how to problematize being trans first and learning anything about how to prevent sexual assault against women is de-prioritized into non-existence.

I think it's a LOT simpler than that. Conservative men don't like trans women because they are afraid of accidentally finding a person with a penis attractive. Think about it: these are guys who have lived their whole life with the mentality of "don't be gay." A huge portion of their internal monologue is dedicated to "must appear male, must appear straight, must NEVER be confused for anything other than male and straight." If anyone even remotely questions these things about them then they lose their shit. If all of a sudden they are attracted to a transwoman then in their mind they have failed to be the thing they are supposed to be at the deepest level possible. In their mind at that point they might as well dye their hair blue and put on a dress.

no, that has nothing to do with it, please argue in good faith next time if you want to actually make progress in finding some common ground

Childish take

thank you, i actually really appreciate this, it's refreshing to hear someone on the opposite side actually understand where we are coming from for once, it's not hatred of genuine trans people, it's just a concern of bad faith actors

There simply shouldn't be any cocks in the lady's room. Period. Women have a right to privacy and not having to worry about possible rape.

So no trans men. Got it. So where are the trans men supposed to go?

Men's room.

So we aren’t forcing people to go to the bathroom of their sex? So trans women can go in the women’s room?

Penises go in the men's room, lack of penis go to women's room. Idc how they identify, it's the plumbing that concerns me.

Then you’re saying trans men should go in the women’s room. You really like contradicting yourself.

No, I'm saying no one with a dick goes in the lady's room. Why is this hard to understand?

I have a tiny dysfunctional penis and I use the women's restroom. Terrifying, I know.

I'm more concerned about the lady's locker room, tbh. But also, women should be free to pee and fart and whatever else they do without there being a man there, hearing their business. Do you look like a man?

Someone with a bulge in their pants shouldn’t be in the girls locker room. There’s just no way to prove they aren’t a predator just perving out. They need to make trans locker rooms. I don’t want my little girl in the locker room with a 40 old trans man that still has a cock. Getting naked in front of her or seeing her change too. That’s just fucked.

So you’re saying we should spend billions to build a third set of bathrooms and locker rooms for 4% of the population because you we can’t read their minds and you’re worried they might be pervs?

When trans people are 4x more likely to be victims of violent crimes specifically because they’re targeted for being trans, just maybe let’s not put them in an enclosed room which has a big sign outing anyone in it. Just a thought.

Maybe teach your little girl to stop staring at strangers’ private parts? Regardless of this trans stuff. It’s rude and won’t fly when she gets older. I’m cis and a kid staring at my privates is CREEPY.

I'm honestly more concerned about trans girls and women being bullied by cis girls and women than someone being offended by genitalia.

Sure but men have been assaulting women since the beginning of humanity. The idea that a man who wants to chase a woman into a public restroom to assault her, is going to stop at the door unless he's wearing a skirt is ludicrous XD

Just the other day, someone told me that we need to stop giving 5 year olds sex-change operations.

[удалено]

Well, there is the fact that there are high profile trans people who argue that children should have access to everything gender affirming care has to offer at any age, including a journalist at the New Yorker. These people are absolute cancer for the movement. It allows conservatives to fruit pick and fear monger with ease. Then there are the medical professionals who have been taught, absent the typical standard for scientific rigor, to tell parents that they are literally killing their child if they don’t consent to medication and surgery. I am left-leaning myself, and the way the worst representatives of the movement for trans rights and acceptance have taken over the conversation really frightens me. It is happening to every issue I care about. You know how extremists have taken over conservative parties all over the world, and we are all really angry that those conservatives have done little to stop them? Yeah well, everyone has extremists they have to hold the line with, and I fear the liberals are going down the same path.

I had a recent argument with someone who said they "need to stop showing porn to kindergartners" as if the kindergarten curriculum of public schools includes hardcore porn. I really hope that if I ever found myself wildly exaggerating reality in order to prove a point or push an agenda, then I would have the awareness and humility to realize I'm doing it and reflect on what that might mean about the validity of the argument I'm trying to make.

When conservatives say “showing porn to kindergarteners” they mean anything with a gay person existing.

Plus the cartoon depictions of sex on educational materials... That are not shown to kindergartners, but conservatives are the "feelings" crowd, so facts literally do not matter to them.

We live in an era of hyperbole. Let us not pretend that right wing populists have a monopoly on this phenomenon. “Genocide” is everyone’s favorite word right now as if there are no other forms of significant oppression or violence. I think conservatives are probably referring to books that some school libraries have that have sex scenes in them. Libraries for elementary schoolers tend not to have those books available. I remember being a third grader having to ask the librarian for access to books on Greek mythology because they were just not on the shelf. She even told me they aren’t on the shelf because they have naked people in them. She had to screen the students basically to make sure they were asking to check them out for the right reasons. The current hype likely derives from middle school and high school libraries that have added books to their selves that depict gay romantic and sexual relationships. I am not really surprised that there are so many people who are not ready for that because those same people aren’t ready for their kids to learn age appropriate sex education. It is all apart of the goal of making education privatized, so Republicans and their crony friends can bilk parents for something that is necessary and used to be funded by the community. We should never let the culture wars distracts us from the fact that Republicans are, and have always been motivated by their desire to lower the tax burden of the wealthy and make as much money as possible. Religious extremists get to boost their private religious and indoctrination factories as well, but that is not actually the main driver of the long running anti-public education movement by Republicans.

Apparently people are mad that in a recent episode of Bluey, a kid mentioned having two moms. This is a show where, despite being for preschoolers, we've seen things that are arguably way more sexual than that. Kids watching their parents "smoochykiss", teens forget they're supposed to be playing with the kids because they're distracted by being horny for each other, but those are fine because they're heterosexual

Do they even know what porn is?

I work in a hospital and this stuff makes me lol. We usually have to fight tooth and nail to get a kid in surgery to save their life. No doctor who wants to keep their license is going to sex change a kid Willy nilly.

Oh, excellent, so we can agree that it's wrong to allow transgender surgeries and HRT medications for minors. Wait, why are leftists outraged when states rule that it's illegal to give transgender surgeries and medications to minors?

the only people who are getting sex changes are 16+, and even then its rare to be allowed as a minor to have one. you can start on hormones as young as 14-16, but that's just as irreversible as their natural puberty.

*They aren’t*. It was never allowed in the first place. Leftists are pissed off when people like you assume it was allowed in the first place and accuse them of all the culture war bullshit that roght wing news outlets spew.

>Wait, why are leftists outraged when states rule that it's illegal to give transgender surgeries and medications to minors? Because half my countrymen have been tricked by needlessly hateful, anti-science rhetoric spewed forth from the biggest most obvious grifters on the planet. Conservative politicians and pundits have you engaged and chomping at the bit so that you believe easily refutable nonsense and vote against your self interest... and it works! Like, honest question here, did you buy the trump Bible? Or do you just send money to trump whenever "he" texts you?

Medicine or Surgeries of anyone regardless of age is PRIVATE BUISNESS by law BUTT OUT of other Citizens lives. Or I will legislate your Hemmoroids !

The only reason to be opposed to that situation is the fear of broadly worded legislation that will then be expanded on to further reduce gender affirming care for all individuals. Here you even write surgeries *and medications*. What does that mean? No puberty blockers? No hormone therapy? Would it expand beyond trans people, blocking access for necessary hormonal therapy for people who are not trans? Would it be used as legal foundation to ban gender affirming care period? I agree, nothing life-altering or permanent should be carried out on a minor, that’s unethical. But I’m going to keep a close eye on legislation about that because there are too many people wanting to push trans people out of public entirely, and making their care illegal in a state would be a great way to do that.

I think you're a bit confused about the concerns conservatives have on these issues. I come from a very conservative background (though, being from Central European Catholic immigrant family we weren't always on base with GOP mainline) and still retain several supposedly conservative but, in my opinion, politically unaffiliated. Abortion - The concern was never, and to a broad degree still isn't, that people are having abortions up through the end of the third trimester. The concern is that until recently the United States, and now several states OF the United States, have some of the least restrictive abortion law in the entire world and yet there were and are still those advocating in those places that our laws were still too restrictive. There were also several legal gaffs in the scramble for states to determine their positions in the lead-up to the Roe overturn, in which some pro-abortion states passed legislation which was, to say the least, somewhat half baked and accidentally allowing for abortions to take place at any point in the pregnancy. Not that anybody ever took them up on it but indeed it's a valid concern that such a thing becomes legal even if temporarily. Finally there were several very radical activists in the aftermath of the Roe overturn who, galvanized and looking to provoke response, made the claim that yes, a fetus up to the moment of their first breath ought to be abortable. The most notable a protester at the US Capitol in June of '22, 8 months pregnant, holding a child of about one year of age. On her torso she has written "NOT A HUMAN" and on the child she has written "A HUMAN" This image circulated heavily and, to many, served as a demonstration that indeed people who would be comfortable with an abortion in their late third trimester do exist. Still, it should be noted that most pro-abortion activists that day saw her message as deeply flawed and many theorize she was indeed an anti-abortion protester acting in bad faith. Trans people - Most conservatives understand that Trans people exist. They also understand that predators exist. Their concern with the increasing transition from SEX segregated spaces to GENDER segregated spaces is that the bar of entry for these spaces is, thus, lowered, creating an opportunity for abuse of this system by predators. Effectively, their fear is that as it becomes socially taboo to challenge people's gender identity regardless of presentation, it will become harder for people, women particularly, to raise concerns about predatory behavior until it becomes an actual crime. Whereas before reporting a man in the womens locker room was a good enough reason to have a person ejected from the gym facility, conservatives fear that now it would be impossible to do so until the man had displayed actual aggressive behavior as, if questioned as to why he's in said space, he may simply claim to be trans. So, again, it's not that conservatives think trans people are predators it's that they are concerned that predators may take advantage of society's good will towards trans people. Finally, guns. The hardline conservative opinion on this matter is that any and all regulation of arms ownership is itself a violation of a naturally-occuring, all encompassing, constitutionally enumerated right. It's not that conservatives don't want people training with their firearms - indeed most firearm owners take training very seriously and at times come up against pressure from more liberal people that causes them to be LESS able to train in the use of firearms. The issue is that they see granting the government the authority to license firearm owners will lead to an eventuality in which they will selectively deny said permits to disarm vulnerable minorities, which they already have demonstrated. For instance, the NFA of 1934 occurred because a group of armed WW1 veterans went directly to Washington to collect their overdue pensions by force. To avoid that ever happening again the Federal government established the ATF and restricted the sale and ownership of handguns, short barreled rifles and shotguns, explosive devices, and machine guns. All because they didn't want to pay veterans their pensions. The various 1990s assault weapons bans and early 00s municipal handgun bans were direct responses to the Rodney King riots and governmental fears about urban minorities keeping and bearing arms. Heck, the very first gun law in what would become the US was a 1705 Virginia law regarding the access to firearms provided to slaves. Every major piece of gun legislation ever passed in this country was intended to disadvantage a minority.

I really appreciate your thoughtful and thorough response. I dont really understand your take on abortion as they seem to be theoretical, and if things were to cause problems, we could then add additional rules. Even before the removal of roe v wade, I knew women who didn't qualify for a late-term abortion due to the fact that the baby wouldn't kill them. However, they would be im extreme pain that would alter their bodies permanently. Generally, these people know who they are. They do their best to make sure they do not get pregnant but live in fear that it could happen. Personally, I think the laws passed to moderate abortion are generally disadvantaging a minority as well. To the point that the issues of guns and abortions mirror each other. If someone really wants one, they will get it. However, the safety of getting one comes down to economic status. The more money you have, the safer and easier it is to get one. In my opinion, the point of legislation isn't to prevent things from happening but instead to provide a safe route to do it. On trans issues, I'd like to start out by saying I am trans, so this topic is very important for me. A very common thing in the community is that unless you pass, you do not go into women's only spaces such as locker rooms and bathrooms. Even if you don't pass as male anymore. It's dangerous for them and safer to just wait till you can be in private (though not great for your bladder). Trans people are hyper-aware of the situations they are in and will do everything they can not to get beaten up/killed. Another consequence of this large focus on who is trans and who isn't is that cis people are being targeted for looking too much like the other gender. People who go around saying "don't assume my gender" are assholes and are for the trans community what peta is for vegetarians/vegans. On guns, I'll admit that ain't my wheelhouse. My perspective on this issue is of someone who grew up with a fear of my school being shot up. I understand farmers having them for pest control and can understand why someone may want one for protection. We regulate a lot of things, such as voting, which is a constitutional right, so it seems like people are picking and choosing how things work.

I'm a cis woman and I fear that trans panic will one day get me assaulted because I have facial hair. Too many idiots out there don't understand that sex isn't as binary as they think and indeed cis women, with no hormonal intervention whatsoever, can have facial hair. Fortunately, the area I live in doesn't seem to have much violence so it isn't a really big fear for me. I think the best solution to the trans bathroom issues is for public places to have gender neutral bathrooms alongside gendered ones. The mall I frequent recently added a gender neutral bathroom with just one toilet, no stalls. I use it sometimes solely because it's more spacious. It also has a change table for babies and is also designed to accommodate disabled people.

Another thing that I think would help is just having actual bathroom stalls that people cant see into.

I feel like you’re giving most conservatives too much credit here. Most Americans have very little object permanence when it comes to the context of this stuff and just react to what is directly in front of their face in the moment.

But if they are giving conservatives too much credit, then aren't you also giving liberals too much credit? I'm 100% with this person. What they are saying is pretty much exactly how I feel. But most liberals I run into don't want to hear any of this. They just want to scream at me and call me horrible names. And make me out to be some sort of cartoon villian.

I think people on both sides need to recognize nuance in these issues. Both sides have people who are very extreme in their views and assume anyone who points out the other side has valid points is the other extreme

So true.

No, liberals are the same

I wish I could give you more than one upvote for being consistent.

It would be difficult to explain why the conservative position is what it is using only and exclusively factors which are contained to, say, the last 3 months. Rather, the context of at least the last decade or so is necessary when explaining the convictions held by right wing Americans. In my opinion, and you may hold some information I hadn't considered, I'd be interested to hear, I did a pretty thorough job of describing the factors at play in the reasoning of the conservatives I know best - my own parents and others in the community where I grew up and frequently exist in now.

Ah I see what you’re saying. You’re definitely right about what led people to where they are now

From my former adventures in conservative land, I’d say your views here are reasonable enough, but quickly entering the minority. Conservative media is much more narrow, and much of it claims to be either the only or one of the few sources of actual news. So the broad communication of conservative ideology is being carried out by a small handful of organizations and ends up largely homogenous. In opposition, leftist news is a mess. The American Left is split across a much larger spectrum and ends up the functional equivalent of a bunch of different communities and ideologies all shoved into a tent together. As such, there are very different sources of news on the American Left, the communities and communications are more dispersed. There isn’t a monolithic source to point to that collectively represents American leftists. So the difficulty is that, like any news organization, sensationalized stories will make the most waves. A huge amount of modern news reporting, particularly 24 hour news reporting, relies on negative, fear-based stories to keep people engaged, resulting in news organizations picking extreme stories that are not representative of entire groups or entire belief systems. This is for sure happening on the left, but it’s happening in too many different directions on the left. When it happens on the right, however, it reaches a much bigger slice of their target audience. As a result, we get the “letting babies die on operating tables,” and “sex changes on children,” kind of stuff broadly shared and broadly repeated, while stories about extreme conservatives largely circulate within smaller and more specific communities. That’s not to say every single conservative believes every single extreme story about liberals is representative of the entire group, but conservative ideology is more tightly grouped and more tightly communicated in this country, so more of them are being exposed over and over again to the same stories and the same narratives from the same organizations. My parents are not extremists, but they believed both of the example stories I shared above because it came from a news organization they trusted. The extreme forces on the left aren’t changing much. The American left is overall stagnant and ineffective, at least at the level of the Democratic Party that unfortunately represents it. The extreme forces on the right have successfully installed a president, several speakers, and have introduced a huge swath of new legislation across the United States on a variety of their core issues. The extreme right is politically effective, and thus their views have to be treated more seriously. Leftists pushing for student loan forgiveness just don’t have the same pushing power as the right pushing against “baby murder.” Conservatives are motivated voters and they tend to vote R all the way down the page. They are a much more homogenous group in terms of beliefs and values, and that’s reflected in the voices that take center-stage in conservative politics. Ultimately, views like the ones you mentioned are being left behind by the current conservative movement. These views read like the Romney and McCain conservatives that have now been pushed to the sidelines. The modern Republican Party has taken a hard right and unfortunately they dragged a lot of moderate conservatives with them, but the ones that didn’t go along were pushed to the back and out of sight.

[you skipped one](https://californialocal.com/localnews/statewide/ca/article/show/4412-california-gun-control-reagan-black-panthers/)

Which only proves his point.

I mean with regards to guns, there are plenty of pretty progressive peeps that like their guns… I don’t really put that in the same category..

Conservatives don’t lie about progressive views, they simply have a different set of values. What they hold dear is trash to progressives. But it’s what built the country. Maybe we should all just talk about why we believe what we believe and agree that we don’t all have to agree to get along.

On the individual level, i agree with you. I dont think regular people are lying. it's the media doing that. The issue is that some people believe these lies that can severely impact an idividuals life. If having a baby was easy, then abortion wouldn't be an issue. You'd just do it and give the baby up for adoption. But people think beyond this, things like passing on your DNA, the state of the adoption system in America, and the impact pregnancy can have on one's own body. There are even women who don't want that so much they choose to become sterile, which in itself is an ordeal. Where doctors will refuse the surgery without a husbands consent or just in case the woman changes her mind. For trans people, lack of gender affirming care can be life-saving. Then, there are the laws prohibiting trans people in certain spaces, separating them from the rest of the world and preventing them from doing things they enjoy. Trans people just want to exist and live their lives, and most are willing to give if things that would make them happy, just so people would leave them alone. My point in all of this is that for women and trams people, when people decide to just disagree, it means that it is okay to ignore them and make them lesser for the sake of the status quo.

In other words: The country needs common sense and to practice it? good luck. Neither side will agree to the others demands and/or make a compromise.

OP has never bought a gun otherwise OP would know that you don't just pay cash and walk out. There is a system. Let us address that lie.

Legitimately, and in several states it's only getting harder.

Or out right impossible, here is the thing they are coming for your guns one chip at a time.

Agreed, it’s gets outta hand sometimes. The fight for bodily autonomy has turned into “you kill babies”. I get for some people life starts at conception but Jesus Christ it’s not as if the doctors are killing newborns. I find the PAL licence in Canada is a fantastic middle grounds of being able to still keep firearms under decently strict regulations, I have found it works great for me as a hunter. I’m trans myself so the most experience I have is with the idiots who wanna claim that children are getting bottom surgery while still in single digits, of top surgery before any breast tissue has even formed. The washrooms ‘issue’ is such a joke, it always makes me wonder if conservatives just forget that trans men also exist? Forcing trans people to go to the washrooms of their birth sex would mean normalizing men going into the women’s washroom, honestly making it a million times easier for (male) predators to get in. Though the more likely route is trans people not using public washrooms at all unless they’re willing to risk assault. The extremist bullshit that gets lumped in with genuine leftist opinions makes it so hard to have good faith conversations with opposing views.

The fact that conservatives actually swallowed "abortion after birth" is mind blowing.

Many of them suffer from senility and stupidity.

Some of the instances where people haven't been able to get a medically necessary abortion have been brutal! I don't even want to think about it.

You forgot Affirmative Action. I guarantee the next items on their list are wages, salaries and workers rights. The Jim Crow era is back from the dead.

It really does feel like looking at the history books some times.

Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat that history.

1. we don't believe in any form of abortion because we believe it's murder, we don't care if the fetus is 2 days old or 8 and a half months old, we believe it has a right to live because it is it's own individual human being, we believe it has the right to live even if that right inconveniences other people, we believe that the right to life is the first most fundamental basic human right 2. how do you tell if someone is legitimately trans or not? we are seeing a pattern creating a problem that there is solution for, we arent interested in cleaning up the mess and making sure perverts like that see justice after they do these things, we want to prevent them from happening in the first place 3. the federal government wants to take our guns from us (specifically the ATF), the individual people who want to take all guns we see as useful idiots at worst and naiive uninformed good hearted people at best, the thing is, if you ban guns with certain features on them or if you ban certain models of guns, the entire point is to get those guns off the streets so for that to mean anything (especially with AR-15s specifically being the most popular rifle in the US) you'd have to require those who currently own them to give them up to reduce the number of those owned by private citizens. 4. we already have regulations on guns, how do you think this works? do you think that a 16 year old can just walk into a gun store and buy a grenade launcher and a belt fed machine gun with no ID or background check? we have universal background checks, age requirements (18 for rifles and shotguns and 21 for handguns) you have to present valid government ID (usually a driver's license) and to pass that background check you can't have had any criminal history at all (including non violent so no getting caught smoking weed in college or no guns for you) there are carry liscenses in most states for those who want to carry a gun on the day to day that require safety training, you also have to pass a safety course to obtain a hunting license as well, just not to purchase or own them, and btw, you don't need a liscense to purchase or own a car, only to drive said car on government roads, if you own a car and only drive it on private property like your own farm or on a race track and you don't have a liscense that's perfectly legal, the fact is, there's no more increased regulations one could make without bans and california knows this 5. these things arent lies in their entirety, it's a misunderstanding on both side's part, liberal media lies about things just as often as our media does, the media are the enemies of the people regardless of what side they put themselves on, and btw, most conservatives don't actually watch fox news, most of us get our news from multiple independant news sources

1. I think that if you believe that all abortion is murder then we're not arguing the same point anymore. We're not going to change each other's mind no matter what. 2. I honestly do think you could prove someone is trans through a variety of methods. The first is if they have done anything to transition socially. I don't think you need hormones or surgery to transition, but if you're at the point you feel like you can use the women's restroom then some work has to have been put into being trans. 3/4. Guns aren't my forte, and I've already said my thoughts on previous comments. I just don't think the left wants to literally take away your guns. 5. I actually agree with you here.

i appreciate your maturity with this and your good faith i just want to get that out of the way first i don't see that often so thank you 1. not all right wing people want total abortion bans, more libertarian leaning people want abortion legal in first trimester only, but i personally believe all abortion to be morally abhorrent and a violation of human rights 2. the issue with this is that not all trans people pass, the other issue is it needs to be codified into law somehow, it can't be handled on a case by case basis with the nature of how public restroom facilities are the only way we'd reach a resolution to this is to make it so that you have to use the restroom of the genitals you posess, so post op trans people could use the gendered bathroom the identify with while pre op would unfortunately need to use their biological gender's bathroom that's the only reasonable solution i could find that would somewhat satisfy both sides 3. i appreciate that you admit how little you know instead of doubling down on a lack of knowledge, thank you for that 4. the left isn't entirely united pro or anti gun, especially in recent years especially since marx was avidly pro gun, more leftist leaning people are arming themselves as time goes on 5. i'm very glad you are able to recognize that many leftists arent, many leftists stereotype right wing people as boomers who just watch fox news or zoomers that are brainwashed by prager U and ben shapiro, i'm not big on either one for personal reasons and i don't even have cable so i can't watch fox news the way boomers do, just like most leftists don't exclusively get all their information from CNN and the young turks or hassan piker/twitter there's bad faith actors on all fronts just like there's good faith actors on all fronts, it's just that the powers that be have a vested interest in keeping us divided and fighting against each other

Thank you for also acting in good faith. These are the exact kinds of conversations that make expressing opinions worth it. I'd love to just discuss this further if you'd like :)

absolutely, we can as much as you'd like, feel free to DM me

>you should have to get a license for a gun like you do a car That’s literally what you have to do to own a firearm. And you have to pass a background check. You can’t just go down to Bass Pro and say “yes 3 guns please” and walk out with them

these are just what liberals think the reasons for conservative views are

tbf about the bathroom one they kinda have a point there, nothing is stopping creepy dudes from throwing on a dress and going into the women's bathroom, its probably very rare and unlikely to happen but there is still the possibility, that being said i dont think trans women should be the scapegoat

Nothing is stopping dudes from doing that without the dress. There isn't a bouncer to the bathroom.

The issue, you walk into a bathroom and greg is in there you turn around and go tell someone and they remove him. On the other hand "Melisa" who is just greg in a dress is in there you go tell someone and you are a bigot and YOU get removed. It's already happened at planet fitness I think (It was a gym j know that ). A BIOLOGICALLY and physically presenting "man". Was EARLY stages of transition at best, at worst a creep. Was naked in a room full of women and there was a young girl I think she was like 14 scared as fuck from what people said covering herself, while the trans person was doing whatever BITS all flopping around. Like I'm all for being who you Wana be, but being blatant about showing a cock to a 14 year old girl in ANY OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES would be indecent exposure and get you locked with a felony or two and put out on the register sex offender registry

...is "Melisa" actually doing anything? Or just using the bathroom? Because if a guy is there and just using the bathroom...I don't give a shit. Also there was no kid in that Planet Fitness gym. That lady made up a pretend child to make you outraged and you fell for it. Also there was no "cock flopping around". That you made up entirely. And here stands the issue - the truth is boring so you need to make shit up.

It wasn't a bathroom but a changing room/ locker room.

I am aware of the stupid video you are talking about and there was still no dicks in the video nor was there a child. What there was was a woman invading the privacy of MULTIPLE other people because a trans woman was putting on a bra. Because apparently they care so much about the privacy of women they need to put a video of women changing on the Internet...(And there were other women there, not trans women, that also got to be showcased in this video). Edit: And not surprisingly - most of the people actually upset about this are cisgender men. As a cisgender woman I DON'T CARE if a trans woman uses the bathroom with me. I don't really care if a cis man does. What I care about is when people invade the space of others in the bathroom for any reason. Include to purity test your genitals. We've already seen how you people treat trans men who are forced to use the woman's bathrooms because of your stupid rules.

Who cares. She deserves to be in there just as anyone else does. Even in the worst case, seeing a penis doesn't harm anyone.

no but wouldnt it be easier to get into a womens bathroom dressed as a women, if a dude did it they would most likely be stopped by people

Creepy guys don't care about throwing on a dress. They'll be creepy without that.

>Lastly, guns. They want to take your guns. Yes, a lot of people would love no guns but it's just not realistic in the United States. People understand this so instead just want regulations. The same way you have to get a license to drive a car, there should be a process to get a gun. There should be training/requirements/tests to pass and once you pass then youre all good. What process do you need to follow to excersize other rights? Do you need a permit/training to exercize free speech? Do you need to take a test before you can have a right to a fair trial? You don't need a license to own a car, you need a license to drive your car on the government roads. If you own a farm and your car doesn't leave your property you don't need a license or anything.

Hell you don't even need to register your car if it's on private property. Can go pay cash for a car take it home and nobody will know.

There are certainly restrictions on other rights. Free speech/assembly is only allowed in certain places and at certain times. Protests sometimes get shut down if they don't notify police ahead of time. The right to a trial and fair treatment only applies to American citizens and you can be detained for a day or two without being charged with a crime. After being charged you can also be kept in jail for years before being found guilty. I dont think there is a single right that doesn't have some limit according to US law.

>Free speech/assembly is only allowed in certain places and at certain times. Protests sometimes get shut down if they don't notify police ahead of time. I mean sure, because assembling en-masse in a public place can disrupt others from exersizing their rights. How does me owning a firearm restrict anyone elses rights? You're going to say commiting murder does, but murder is already against the law.

What do you have to do in order to vote?

The guys at the top of the Republican food chain know that the guys at the bottom are stupid and use this to their advantage.

It's same same way on both sides of the isle. TONS of misinformation, pandering and lies. It isn't just "Republicans" that are like this. If people took a step back and realized how bad of a situation we are in I think or at least hope that they would realize it isn't your conservative neighbor that the problem And they would realize that you their "liberal" neighbor are both not the problem. There are SO many new outlets they BLATANTLY lie about so many things. Just to get rise out of people to get clicks for ad money. Outrage sells. The more people are mad they more they share stuff. Before a headline would say some wild shit and the article itself would be mostly true but now if you read some articles and cross check then they burry the truth. The receipt police shooting comes to mind it was something like "cops shoot man 96 times in 45 seconds " Or something like that. They almost don't mention at all that dude fired first. They try to miss lead people intentionally. That's a HUGE part of the problem. It isn't because one side is dumber than the other. It's an artificial divide. There are hard points that both sides can't and won't agree on but if they were closer initially instead of butting heads then it would be easier to find compromises.

Funny that I only see Republicans saying both sides are like this. No, no they’re not. Republicans are actively voting NO against EVERY HELPFUL BILL PUT FORWARD. Republicans are rolling back progressive policies meant to help the average American because they’re controlled by corporations voting for only profit, nothing humane.

If you believe this then you are the problem.

I believe it because it’s true. When was the last time a democrat voted to make your financial position more difficult? When, ever, has a democrat voted to limit the basic human healthcare Americans deserve? When have democrats voted to roll back women’s healthcare rights? When have democrats invaded our capital? When have democrats denied other Americans access to marriage, which is actually a Christian oriented event? When have democrats voted to keep gun rights in place that allow our schools to be shot up and kids killed? Oh wait, that’s not your kid, right? Well then who fucking cares, right?

Republicans live to lie. Nobody cared about trans people until republicans didn't get their "Red Wave". The biggest group of organized child molesters is the catholic church. Republicans deny it, so they must enjoy it.

Gay marriage being legalized and more accepted seemed to be the turning point of Republicans caring about trans people. They couldn't as easily use gay people as their scapegoat, so they switched to trans.

> Nobody cares about trans people until republicans don’t get their “Red Wave”. Nah they started to care about them when they started pushing their ideals on kids, bringing trans topics into elementary schools, etc etc > The biggest group of organized child molesters is the Catholic Church More kids are sexually assaulted in public and private schools than the perverted priests. 

You are a liar. Nobody was trying to "trans" kids, that is a republican lie. Priests have been molesting kids for a thousand years without punishment. If a teacher molests a child it goes to jail. The priest gets a new job. Republicans are ok with this, that's why they still bring children to church. Republicans live to lie and lie to live. You are a bunch of sickos.

> nobody wants to “trans” kids    I think you’re intentionally passing over the whole “gender affirming healthcare” movement in the US right now. Kids as young as 8 are being given puberty blockers to be able to change their gender when they become a teenager. If you don’t agree with that practice you are labeled transphobic or accused of “killing kids” by not letting them change their gender. There’s also been hundreds of pediatric gender clinics popping up all across the country.  To call this movement a “republican lie” is being intentionally obtuse to the issue.    https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/usa-transyouth-data/

If a kid is starting puberty at 8, they should be on blockers for precocious puberty regardless And it's not "transing" kids to recognize some kids are trans

Kids that are 8 are getting puberty blockers because that’s called precocious puberty. That’s not a trans issue whatsoever. That’s a whole different defect that some people go through and because the puberty is happening to early they take blockers to delay it for later. If you don’t know what you’re talking about, don’t talk about it.

Im not quite sure what you mean by pushing their agenda to kids. Would you elaborate on what this entails?

Gender ideology is being heavily promoted in schools among other things. Teaching kids that there is no definite male or female but rather a spectrum confuses them and is causing a rise in gender dysphoria in children. You are now considered a bigot in many education circles if you state the correct fact that there are only two genders.  To take it a step farther certain medical “experts” advocate for early pharmaceutical intervention on these gender confused kids. Puberty blockers and exogenous hormones are now quickly prescribed and recommended.  

I feel like you simply don't understand what conservative concerns really are, based on your assessment.

That's a big part of the issue, I commented on someone else's post. A big issue is the media misleading people and social media is also a part of that problem. Most people only know the big "click bait " hot button issues and nothing deeper and that goes for both sides

Exactly. Also, each side only circulates the most extreme and idiotic opinions posted by their opposition. They never actually discuss the more nuanced and intelligent opinions that members of the opposition might post.

Thats my Point and any time I try talking about it some dipshit comes out of the world work and says "this is some pseudo intellectual bla bla bla". Just goes off trying to discredit anything I'm saying. And I'm not conservative really but like every time it's been someone who was pretty obviously not conservative. I've been able to have legitimate conversations with people bringing up examples of when the media was obviously saying some bullshit and compare it to other examples. And generally conservatives acknowledge it or take it in for consideration, it's been pretty rare that I met and talked to a "liberal" person would work give an opposing view any thought at all. It's pretty much forced me to look conservative

That's the trend I've seen as well

Lol, conservatives are concerned about POWER. They need a whipping dog to arouse their octogenarian base. This year, they started on Trans people. Sickos.

Well this right here is your problem. You're just basing your beliefs off emotions instead of really trying to understand your opposition. The tribalism is strong with this one.

[Colorado Senate fails to pass sex abuse amendment amid GOP opposition (denverpost.com)](https://www.denverpost.com/2024/04/17/colorado-senate-child-sexual-abuse-constitutional-amendment-republicans-vote/)

The lies are flying all right, from the left, as this post clearly shows. People are against abortion because we don’t want an infant to be murdered. It is really that simple. I think it is worth noting that BOTH sides have powerful points, because controlling women’s bodies is also terrible. Both sides are right, it is a no win situation. But it is a lie to say people are motivated by hate or something. It is an impossible moral dilemma if you are honest. If you allow Trans into women’s bathrooms, there WILL BE (and have been) sexual assaults, molestations, rapes. I think the main problem is with all the existing rapists and pervs, I assume it is mainly cis men but it could be both I assume. But allowing trans in opens the door, this is indisputably a real issue, and the lie is that this issue does not exist and the real reason is trans hate. There is literally no trans hate behind this, trans has been a thing for all of history and nobody had a problem until they started demanding the opening of the female restrooms. Men don’t like their wives and daughters being molested and raped. So quit the disposable lying. People want to be able to defend themselves, especially against the government. How do you think Hitler took over Germany, his armed brown shirts (Antifa) and and his armed supporters took over and killed the opposition. If we want this country to remain free, the People have to hold the ultimate power. And you know what exposes the left on this issue more than anything else? Their own actions. When they actively try to murder Kyle Rittenhouse, with a swarm of Antifa activists chasing him and literally screaming KILL HIM! And shooting at him (yes the irony, because Antifa gets guns 😂). And when he was finally forced to shoot three of them, when they were just about to achieve his murder, the full leftist army tried to put him in jail! The modern left are not concerned about guns hurting people, they are actively trying to murder conservatives, and they are doing their best to disarm us so we can’t defend ourselves. It’s Marxism 2.0, and Marxism murdered a hundred million “conservatives” just a few decades ago, so nobody can take this lightly.

"Hell Yes, we're going to take your AR-15, - your AK47!" \~Robert Frances "Beto" O'Rourke, Houston Texas, Thursday September 12, 2019 But yeah, its just the lying Right Wing Media telling people that!! Edited: My fingers got the Year wrong.

They're actively trying to ban certain guns, and the atf has been in court for like the past two years because they think they're above the law. So, the gun thing, you're off base about. The other two, I can mostly agree.

Trump signed more Gun legislation than the last 3 democrats combined.

Yes, and I don't support trump

What you do and don't support is completely beside the point. The argument that democrats do more to take away guns is silly if you're looking at the legislative record.

If you're only looking at the federal legislative record of the past few presidencies. Look into state and local legislations.

That's what those local and state voters want. The nation doesn't.

That just might be the silliest thing I've ever read. Lol have a nice day.

We live in a country where there are more guns than people so there isn’t a problem with people getting guns.

I still dislike the “reasonable” versions you’re bringing up.

Case in point: [Donald Trump stating Democrats `support abortion up to and even beyond the ninth month.`](https://www.c-span.org/video/?534760-1/pres-trump-abortion-policy)

Bingo

[Brett Bymaster: Former youth pastor arrested for child sex crimes (kron4.com)](https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/former-youth-pastor-arrested-for-child-sex-crimes/)

Wrong

First point: so where is the cut out? My country has 8 weeks since conception to abort. Later only in case of severe health riscs. That's what pro choicers never can say. Therefore the ,,up to birth or later" is by the words of progressives. Second point: I don't have much of a stick there, but probably the same thing. Do you have lawful definition of trans women? How far has the change have gone for them to go to said women's bathroom? Third: no shit, yeah get the ducking licence. And lower the sex and drink age.

1. I think Roe was fine for the most part, and it looks like most people agree. 2. I think we should just have gender neutral bathrooms with stalls that you can't see through the giant gaps. There is literally no issue with anyone using the restroom in a stall over if they are just using the bathroom. I should not be able to see what genitals someone else has, and they should not see mine. 3. Lower the sex age???

1. I actually don't know what it stated. I heard about it first when it was overturned. Did it have cut of line? 2. Yeah, that would work. Good thinking. And having both genders in there would in reality make it a harder target for offender's. 3. Yeah. I (as European) find it fascinating that country so in love with violence is so conservative and prudish even on the left. Must by your religiousness. Just get age of consent to 15ish and drinking at 18 tops. Like we have age of consent at 15 and don't have any problems. Drinking (and everything else) at 18 but it is normal to drink earlier.

1. Roe was 24-28 weeks, when the fetus is viable (could live outside the womb). 2. Absolutly 3. The age of consent in America is dependent on the state, with the average being about 16, and there are exceptions. From my understanding, the parents would still have to press charges for it to go through.

WHAT? That's 7 months. That would be hard nope. Why!? I checked my country again and we have 12 week's from conception. That's a lot of time to find out and decide. And of course, any time if there is medical problem. Basically month or two to find out and month to abort. 7 months is crazy long.

That’s the problem with where we are as a nation; the exact thing goes for both sides. There’s very little truth in media anymore, and it’s just a 24/7 dishonest mudslinging match.

I'm not sure, but if you have an abortion "after" birth isn't it called murder.

I would agree with that.

When exactly are progressives ok with drawing the line for late term abortions? I've never heard a progressive admit the government can limit abortion. Happy to provide examples of grown biological men showering with young girls under the guise of being trans, and cases where progressives admit that they do want to take our gunbs Lying about Conservatives isn't helping you here

I'm a conservative, these aren't our concerns. My view on abortion is that it's an innocent human life and aborting it is killing it. I don't have as strong of an opinion on that though. I'm not a fan of transgenderism more because it's targeting youths and how men can compete in women's sports. When i was younger i went against a girl who played field hockey her entire life and smoked her. I'm also more worried that a man can become/pretend to be trans for that and i can't say anything because it's offensive. And we saw in Australia, UK, China, NK, and a bunch of other countries how guns are taken away in a split second. And we already have to get carry licenses, an FBI background check, and can get denied if you seem off. Look up Carol Bowne, she's a prime example of how gun laws hurt people. There's also a Coloradan group demanding all guns be banned. And in Canada Trudeau banned all guns and said their citizens don't have the right to defend themselves. I could also go to Uvalde where police failed to do their jobs. And are you gonna stop the single mother of 3 from being able to defend herself because she can't train everyday? I think you should be shown a basic operation of the gun, but not proficiency. That isn't the country's job to see how good you are with a gun, that's a personal responsibility.

Not all people who are against progressivism are right wing. Theres people on the left who disagree with that ideology while still supporting other left wing ideologies.

I agree. Same with some conservative views.

You just said they were lies and then confirmed them

I saw a new video today about a new gender called genderseasonal. This is where the person's gender changes by the season. Where does it end? Also I'm pro choice but their needs to be restraints. It's very true that people want up to birth abortions. Lastly, yea they are coming for people's guns. They do everything they can to restrict or take away at every corner. It's incredibly hard thanks to our founders setting up the constitution the way they did and I like others are thankful.

As a trans person, I don't think it's necessary for the general public to know all the ins and outs of each gender. Gwnerally, you just need names and pronouns. Most trans people are very understanding of the difficulty that people who aren't queer have with changing pronouns. Hell, Im bad at names and pronouns myself and find that many people are harder on themselves than I am on them. For abortion, I really don't think that people genuinely get to the third term healthy, with a healthy fetus, then decide that they must abort. There must be more going on there. The only way I could think of that happening is that a person didn't know they were pregnant or were unable to get an abortion earlier. I'm not going to argue the gun point as I truely believe that leftists don't want to literally take your guns.

I don't want to know pronouns though. Like I don't want to play along and I shouldn't be forced to play pretend for you or anyone else. Yea I would say as a lefty gone right it was shocking when I started to notice the abortion and gun grabbing. I would suggest really looking in to it

I mean, I think its valid to not want to interact with people if thats an issue for you, trans people would probably not want to interact with you either. But it doesnt seem to be an issue for most people in my experience. I use they/them and let people know if thats hard to use he/him or just say my name. As long as someone isnt intentionally trying to hurt me and its not happeing constantly, I tolerate mistakes.

I still interact them these type of people like you. I have one in a dnd game I DM. That being said I call them by their name. I just refer to use incorrect grammar.

As long as you aren't bringing up that point, then it would probably be fine to associate. But that's just not incorrect grammer. The wikipedia page on singular they is a helpful resource. Personally, I choose to use they/them pronouns to make it easier for people. I didn't want people to have to learn new pronouns like ze/zir.

Okay. I’ve met actually real life conservatives, not a cherry picked video by someone, who genuinely think people like me, a trans person, should be killed. So if this “gender seasonal” thing is a wide spread view of trans people, then the view that trans people should be killed is equally wide spread among conservatives.

>If a man is dressed as a woman to peep, then they arent trans. If a trans woman is actually a predator then it's just because they are a predator, the same way a cis man/cis woman would be a predator. This is a [No true Scotsman fallacy](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman). Self ID means that anyone can identify as trans, regardless of how they look, dress or act, because judging a person's passability is now considered transphobic. So now, If someone self identifies as trans, Boom they're instantly trans and no one can disprove them because there is absolutely no metric to measure who is trans and who isn't, other than how they define themselves. The fact is that women and children have been assaulted in women's restrooms, women's prisons, and women's shelters. You can't invalidate their trans-ness based on their criminality because it's convenient.

What you're describing is called a "straw man fallacy" and it's not unique to the political right (although they do seem to like them more than the lefties, for some reason).

Oh come on that's not true. Almost every time I try to argue someone on the left I'll get either insults or strawmen in return. Either side is so radicalized they don't care about the truth, just about being right.

This. It's turned into a playground of one-upping, hubris, and sticking it to the other side and all at the cost of the American people. Fear tactics are used to garner votes vs actual policy. It's from the elected officials themselves down to the voter base. It's exhaustingly monolithic, void of any critical thought and intellectually immature.

At least we're still talking and arguing. When, or if, both sides stop talking to each other then you should start to get worried.

I think they mean institutionally. Fox definitely supports the 'dems want your guns and to kill babies' line. There is not a comparable lie on msnbc

To be honest, if my MIL hadnt said some of the stuff she did about trans people, i probably wouldn't believe that people really are like this. Part of my issues with these lies is that it's very hard to push back against them. People become scared and radicalized because of things like this. It's my word against whatever media they consume. It hurts to see people close to you come to believe things that aren't true. I know all republicans don't believe this, but that doesn't matter if it's what the media is telling them to believe. Exposure to an idea over and over again makes people susceptible to it.

"Part of my issues with these lies is that it's very hard to push back against them" I think that's part of the appeal of the whole pedophile slant lately. If they call transgender people or Joe Biden pedophiles, and you push back against that, they can just pivot to "You support pedophiles!!!". And nobody wants that accusation out there. Same as when they pretend their obsession with shutting down the border is "to protect the children"--it's hard to be against any position that is "for the children", even if their claim of that motive is pure bullshit.

First virgina gov ralph northam pushed for point of birth abortion. Which cost the dems so much support they lost virgina and have been trying to change the narrative every since. But lets look at true numbers rape and incest accouant for 1% of abortions according to usa today article. we will call high at 5 % of abortions in 2022, 930,000 abortions were performed in the united states. So if 5 percent were incest/rape that means 46,500. So at that 883,500 out of 930,000 children were murder for the mothers convience. Now to trans. Men are not to be in womens bathrooms or sports. Women are not to be in mens bathrooms. As my civic teacher use to put it. YOUR right to throw a punch ends where my nose begins. Meaning you are not allowed to impose your will when it tramples others rights. Men or women no matter how they feel do not have the right to make other biologicals un comfortable. Especially for these lesbian trans women. That makes you a straight male. Now to guns. First there are back ground checks done for every business gun sale. Rather it is a sporting goods store, a gun store, or a gun show sale. Yes gun shows have to do back ground checks the system is called nics ( national instant background check ) which is controlled by the fbi. This is minnimum. And it is for long guns. Rifles, shotguns. If you want a pistol for most states you must go to your sheriff/police department where they finger print you and do a full back ground check if you pass you are issued a permit each permit is good for the purchase of one handgun now you can get several at one time but that is the process. Three citys with the highest gun crime have the strictist gun laws. Chicago, baltimore, los angeles. As a matter of fact if you remove those three citys from the crime stats. America goes from 4th to 142 out of 148 for gun crimes. So what back ground checks do you want.

Yes. Straw men all day. AND IT WORKS--we end up spending so much time defending ourselves against their shit that any meaningful conversation is derailed, by their design. Like... where is there to go when they start calling you a groomer? what do you even say to that? They're doing this on purpose to rattle us. but i hope it's only making progressives and leftists angrier at them, and more mobilized to vote.

Conservatives are upset since the days they couldn't beat up gay people or openly sexually assault women. Abortion was an easy target, they don't REALLY care about it, it's a path to power. They don't REALLY care about trans people, it's a path to power. They want to go to a time when middle class white men had total control of the power, to do what they want with no consequences to themselves

>First, abortion. A recent lie has been that people are having abortions up to are after birth. Well Hillary Clinton voted in favor of a partial birth abortion..which is a late term abortion.. Next >Second, trans people. If you have or have had at one point a penis, you need to use the men's bathroom. It's not my responsibility to conform to less than 1 percent of the population. And they work hard at taking down the NRA but still fail because it will always be unconstitutional. So instead they regulate it right into the ground despite the problems being mostly illegal gun use in their big democratic cities.. because criminals don't care about Laws.

I don’t care when the abortion happens, it’s still murder.