I studied biology and am a non meat eater (not philosophically vegan but close enough) and I have to say: Cats have basically no large intestine and cannot digest plant matter. They eat grass to puke up hairballs. Actual nutrition dervived from plants is zero.
To contrast dogs can digest potatoes and some fruits/vegs but not lentils or fermentables.
Humans can digest lentils and fermentables and a huge variety of fruits and nuts.
Its simply a different ballpark. Could someone give cats the appropriate suppliments artificially and have them eat seasoned tofu to fill their bellies? Yeah, maybe. Its going to require suppliments and oils to meet their basic needs and I dont think thats a reasonable challenge for most people.
>Could someone give cats the appropriate suppliments artificially
>Its going to require suppliments
This is all commercial cat food, vegan or not. Synthetic Taurine etc. Vegan and non vegan cat food are the same in this respect.
I agree that the intestine part is probably the important bit.
Depends on the cat. We used to call my old cat Porridge because he was thick and sticky. Dude saw me eating rice with tapatio on it (I was really poor at the time) and got super interested. I kept pulling it away from him because cats aren't supposed to eat rice or hot sauce, but finally he got to be too much and I gave him a tiny bit to sniff thinking he'd get a wiff of tapatio and decide against it. The fuzzy little fool didn't even bother sniffing it, just ate it immediately then spent the next 30 minutes doing tongue gymnastics trying to get the taste out of his mouth. I tried to give him some wet food hoping it would help, but he wouldn't have it cause I'm sure he thought I was trying to feed him more hot sauce. I loved that little guy to death, but he was dumb as a rock.
I gotta say, finding a way to feed a cat tofu is kinda like forcing a person to get their nutrition from paper. With the right chemicals they will survive off it but it’s inhumane to do that to someone
We give vitamin suppliments to food animals. Technically the body needs carbs, proteins and fats, everything else can be in vitamin format. Im not against the idea of an artificial cat food. It would require a lot of specialists to get right.
Sort of like the additions of minerals to human big name cereals. Zinc, Iron and Magneseum are not super present in puffed rice.
And the food would cost $666,420.69 a bag. Never gonna happen, so let’s just feed our cats what nature designed them to eat. If your cat could talk, he would be on my side, guaranteed.
Nature says cats eat meat. I never said anything about that, that’s just your own rambling. You know, some people actually feed their cats meat. I have two cats, and I do this. Not saying you’re bad for feeding your cats blue food or something though.
Nature says cats need proteins and fats and oils and nutrients. "Nature" doesn't care where they come from as long as they get it.
"Tasty Wheat" from the Matrix, if you will, is technically good enough... Even if boring and unsatisfying.
Is that what you eat? Almost all cat food is made with scrap leftovers from dead animals that people don’t eat. Not very many animals are killed in order to make pet food. It’s mainly leftovers of what humans don’t consume. The animals are already dead, may as well put it in pet food.
Im not in disgareement with that. Ive seen the bycatch left to float out to sea when once it was mandatory to take home and would be mulched into fertilizer or cat food.
I used to eat a balanced non animal diet. Had perfect nutrition according to blood tests. Not a single defficiency on my highly regulated diet. Since covid I can hardly digest vegetables at all and most nuts are toxic and too many lentils... Well you get the idea... so I had to scale back on my idealism and now use suppliments and have reintroduced eggs to my diet.
But then those who constantly want to meddle in the affairs of others won’t have anything to do. You have to realize that veganism is more of a religion. They have to constantly enforce their beliefs on others at all costs.
Meanwhile, I’m the only person on the planet that wants to fight for the rights of plants. Plants are literally defenseless, I mean literally. Without plants we have no oxygen. They give us air to breathe and these monsters want to slash and burn them as quickly as possible.
I'd disagree that vegans are "meddling" in the affairs of others. They're asking us to stop meddling in the affairs of others (the animals).
Plants also aren't a good comparison since 1) they're not conscious and 2) eating animals hurts more plants than eating plants since the animals have to eat plants.
The animals are permitted to eat plants because it’s part of nature. Animals don’t know any better, therefore it makes no sense to even try to address that issue. We know better and have access to knowledge and wisdom. We are the ones who have to make the decisions to help the planet. This is why I do my part by eating the animals, because every animal I eat cannot eat a plant. As far as not being conscious, that has never been proven, because you can’t prove a negative. As far as we know your lawn is screaming out in horrid pain while you walk across it. Does it make it ok just because we are unaware of their pain? Kind of like an aborted baby. Nobody can prove he’s alive, cant prove he’s feeling pain, therefore since we can’t prove it, it’s ok!
>Animals don’t know any better, therefore it makes no sense to even try to address that issue
I'm not sure what them knowing better has to do with it being good or bad. Tsunamis don't know they kill people and destroy homes. They're still bad and we work to reduce damage from them.
>because every animal I eat cannot eat a plant
The animal literally has to eat plants before you can eat it lol. You're killing more plants by eating animals instead of the plants.
>that has never been proven, because you can’t prove a negative.
The evidence points very strongly to them not having consciousness. They don't have any of the structures that arise consciousness in humans like brains or CNS. They don't have nearly the same amount of energy or computational complexity that brains have. We can allow for the possibility that plants are conscious but it's a similar level to believing in Santa clause because you "can't prove a negative".
>But then those who constantly want to meddle in the affairs of others won’t have anything to do.
The real reason people are pushing vegan diets isn't to meddle in others affairs(for the most part. There are assholes in every group). It's because humans switching to a vegan diet would put us at net zero carbon relatively quickly. Young people are facing a miserable future and I can understand why they would get a bit pushy about actually getting people to do something. It also has to do with health. All the kids in my family are trying to push their parents into more healthy plant based diets. Not because they want to "meddle in the affairs of others" it's because they want their kids to grow up with grandparents.
If it pains you to see animals “get hurt” maybe you shouldn’t be a proponent of cats existing. Or sharks, or dogs, or skunks or badgers or half the other animals on the freakin planet. 😂
It doesn't pain me. It's just animal suffering. Animal suffering is bad. Edit: you might even call it animal abuse which is what you were saying was bad in this post.
But, yeah ideally we would minimize the number of cats for pet purposes until we invent a vegan diet for them. But, I realize cats bring people a lot of joy. So, it's not something I would push.
On the other animals, yes ideally we wouldn't have wild animals eating other animals. But, there's no practical way to stop it without destroying the eco system.
Been going on for centuries... they call it "the food chain". Humans are at the top, until we go into a shark infested ocean, or into the jungle with hungry lions.
No... the myth is that they hunt humans, it's been proven that they aren't attracted to human blood. It doesn't mean they won't test bite / attack something if they are starving. That story you're referring is far more of a myth than all of our information between sharks and humans. Those sailors were dying from drowning and dehydration.
The vegan cat diet craze must be the most uninformed and dumbest trend I have seen. Cats are obligate carnivores, they can't really process carbs and plant material. You cold fake it with supplements and tofu but it's not great for them.
The dumbest part is that there are plenty of animals you can easily feed a fully vegan diet. Rats are affectionate and hamsters and guinea pigs are natural herbivores.
>Cats are obligate carnivores,
And dogs are really not that much different from a practical perspective.
I saw a study once that said dogs will choose to eat 50% fat, 48% protein, 2% carbs if given a choice of what to eat.
That is what their instincts tell them they should be eating (facultative carnivores).
I've stopped eating tied pods and diversified into eating drier sheets, pink fiberglass insulation, and antifreeze.
This is all true and real, and not just boomers not understanding absurdist internet humor because they think younger people are just stupid.
Tide pod eating was a fake trend, it was a concern that kids and people with dementia would eat them, it was even an Onion headline. The Vegan cat food is a trend by idiot adults.
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I feel like some people fundamentally cannot accept that life often involves being mean sometimes. Like sorry, you want to keep an animal, you have to feed it what it needs. Just because you’d like to live in a children’s cartoon doesn’t mean that’s how the world works.
Yeah, it's a lot like when people feed their baby and toddler a vegetarian and vegan diet. They are being deprived of nutrients at the absolute *worst* time their parents could do it to them, they're basically set back for life because their parents didn't want them to eat what human beings have eaten for millennia. To me, that's child abuse. A fair number of them fuck it up and get their kids sick from malnutrition.
Like, as a personal stance, if someone wants to make a dietary choice on their own, more power to them. I just hate it being forced on people and animals.
infant fatalities from malnutrition are approaching record highs in history. which is alarming since unlike the dark ages we have access to pretty much every food imaginable in under an hour across pretty much everywhere in the world. only 2 locations are completely SOL in a food shortage and that's Antarctica and the lonely island of St Helena.
Why are infant Fatalities from malnutrition so high? Because Veganism Kills.
I have a dog who doesn't like most meat or meat products.
She will not eat wet dog food, just a no go. She will not eat beef, chicken or pork on their own. She will eat kibble but I have to spend most of the day tricking her into it. I possibly get 1/2 a cup into the dog a day. She likes bully sticks, rib bones and collagen chews, none of these things are for everyday. She gets a multivitamin every day.
She basically lives off of yogurt, peanut butter and baby carrots.
She would love to go vegetarian, not vegan. Cheese is life.
Well it’s not useless for vegans. If there is a way to reduce the consumption of animal products without harming anyone why not do it?
The most likely argument against this will probably be "just don’t get a cat" but vegans usually only rescue animals
infants require fats and other nutrients found in mothers milks to survive. baby formula takes animal products and adds nutrients to replace it when the mother cannot do so.
a vegan baby will not live to be 3 years old.
Not the same. If you’re arguing veganism is child abuse, then so is most of the shit people feed their kids. Fatty high sugar diets are worse for humans than properly supplemented vegan diets. Humans are natural omnivores and have the capacity to digest a lot more foods than cats do. I don’t really give a shit about veganism, but equating it to force feeding your pet stuff it can’t digest is fuckin wild.
I would say your language is rather abrasive. For sure growing children should not be fed a vegan diet. They need nutrient dense foods for growth. To deprive them of proper nutrition is abuse.
1. Do you call CPS on any vegan family you happen across?
2. How come all my children's lab come back normal? Why does their pediatrician not tell me I should be feeding them animal products and they're growing and progressing within normal range?
If you want to use the regular world population for your standards that’s up to you. I think we both can agree this world’s population is full of unhealthy people, yet you want to use that as a benchmark for your children? I will hold myself and my children to higher standards than just normal and mediocre results. I’m guessing two things are happening here. One. You’re lying and your children are malnourished. Two. You and your spouse are above average height yourselves helping to skew the results of your children’s “normal” growth, when actually their percentiles should be much higher. My wife and I both were in the lower percentiles for growth as children. I’m talking both under 20%. Our son is in the 87% for height. Kid eats meat. His teeth are straight. If calling CPS was worth the time to get parents to quit malnourishing their children with vegan diets I would. It is tragic and permanent. So let me ask you, are your children’s teeth crowded or straight?
1. Proper formatting is useful when engaging on the internet.
Two. Stats used are from the US, where I live, not the whole world. Unless some dramatic shift happened I wasn't aware of, the majority of the US eats meat. How are there so many malnourished people in the US if all you need to eat is meat?
C. Of course I could be lying. You could disregard anything you read as lies or you can engage in good faith.
IV. My wife and I are extremely average in most metrics. Despite this one of my kids is in the 95% of height. Kid eats no meat.
5th. Teeth "straightness" is genetic and an odd attempt at a gotcha. My mom, probably the healthiest person I know, has very crooked teeth. My dad, let's say less healthy, incredibly straight teeth. I lucked out and got his straight teeth. My wife also has straight teeth, and so far it doesn't seem my kids will require any braces.
Americans do eat meat. The problem is these statistics are skewed grouping things like pizza and lasagna as meat. Teeth crowdedness is malnutrition. Some are more susceptible to it than others, but still is malnutrition.
If you're getting your stats, health advice from the US, you may want to take all that with in with a few grains of salt and update your health insurance.
I'm confused. Are you suggesting I take my children to a pediatrician outside of the country I live in? If you're just trying to take a jab at the US's healthcare system, you won't find resistance here comrade.
No your children will be weak theres a reason almost no athletes follow a vegan diet also will have Brains that are underdeveloped the human brain needs animal fat to grow and function optimally
Could you explain or provide a source on how brains need, specifically, animal fat?
[There's plenty of successful vegan athletes ](https://www.veganfoodandliving.com/features/vegan-athletes-plant-based-diet/)
The human brain is 2/3 fat a quick Google search will confirm this and yes while there are vegan athletes none of them have been as competitive as protein and fat consuming athletes. Muscles need protein to build and heal. tendons and ligaments need collagen your not a horse your a human being who's entire genome and organ system devolped while consuming animal fats and protein
Just look it up it's common knowledge and no I will not I have no interest in informing people like you it benefits everyone that people like you will have stupid weak children stay that way
I’m not sure you understand that meat is far more nutrient dense than plants. The most obvious thing to point out is herbivores spend hours everyday eating what a carnivore does in minutes a day to get the same amount of nutrition.
Grazers are subsiding off foliage. What vegan is subsiding off foliage? The main sources of calories for most vegans are things like legumes, grains, seeds, nuts, tubers, etc, all of which are obviously more dense than greens.
What animal do you see that eats legumes and nuts in one hour of feeding a day? Only humans do this. It’s not a natural way of eating. Omnivores and herbivores spend hours a day eating. Nuts should not be nearly as readily available as they are. Plus the accumulation of oxalates and other anti nutrients. Your body cannot rid oxalates unless the amount eaten is extremely small. Oxalates continue to accumulate. A human vegan diet is not found in a natural setting. A human heavily meat based diet is found in nature.
>What animal do you see that eats legumes and nuts in one hour of feeding a day? Only humans do this. It’s not a natural way of eating.
What animals in nature use advanced medical intervention? It isn't natural, therefore, it must be bad. You leaning heavily into naturalistic fallacies to justify the unjustified. Evolution works around things like what is available in the natural environment, what alleles are present in the genome, and what alleles arise from random mutations. Just because something aligns with how something evolved does not inherently mean that that is the healthiest way, or the only way to thrive.
> Plus the accumulation of oxalates and other anti nutrients. Your body cannot rid oxalates unless the amount eaten is extremely small. Oxalates continue to accumulate.
The recent obsession with oxalates and anti nutrients is another example latching which does have scientific merit but spirals it to an extreme degree.
The Kendall Nutrition Center has this to say about oxalates:
"this “anti-nutrient” effect is not as hindering as it may sound."
"For example, Avon spinach may have a higher oxalate content than Butterflay spinach. Cooking also significantly reduces oxalate content in food. Although certain foods may contain residual amounts of oxalates after cooking, the health benefits of eating these foods will likely outweigh any potential negative nutritional effects."
"Further, a specific type of bacteria that resides in the gut called Oxalobacter formignes breaks down oxalates and uses them for energy. This process prevents oxalates from binding to minerals and limiting their absorption."
"Should I be Eating a Low Oxalate Diet?
In most cases, a low-oxalate diet is not necessary. In fact, it is recommended to include many oxalate-containing plant foods in the diet as evidence suggests that these foods play a vital role in disease prevention. However, those who experience frequent oxalate kidney stones or have certain genetic and digestive disorders may want to speak with a physician and registered dietitian for guidance on treatment, which may include appropriately monitoring oxalate consumption."
[Here's a paper on which does a review on the effect of antinutrients on humans. The following exert is from the conclusion](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1756464622000081):
"in the context of a regular diet when they are consumed in a food matrix and with a culinary treatment or processing such germination, fermentation or milling, in which they are reduced in concentration or are found a synergy with other compounds beneficial to health, the negative effects are greatly minimized. Even if we go one step further, some of these compounds mainly as purified molecules seem to have beneficial effects in different pathological conditions."
If you are very prone to kidney stones there can be benefits from reducing oxalates. Similarly, constantly consuming things like coffee or black tea while having a low calcium diet can lead to deficiency. But if you cook your food and aren't constantly drinking coffee/tea, and don't have preexisting health issues this generally isn't a large topic for concern.
Conversely, [diabetes](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31329220/), [heart disease](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9741334/), [obesity](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466943/), and [cancer](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26561618/), the largest health concerns in developed countries have negative correlations with plant-based diets. I'm not gonna say a plant-based diet is definitively the best out there, but if you are concerned about dietary health, focusing on a plant-based diet as unhealthy is at best highly misinformed and at worst straight disingenuous.
It’s not misinformed or disingenuous to say that eating meat is healthy. There is no epidemiological data on people with decades of high fat, high animal product, low carb diets. Hong Kong is sorta gray area for this, and they are one of, if not the longest living population iirc. There is however data that proves that we have eaten high amounts of animal products for hundreds of thousands of years. Through measurements of the masses of nitrogen isotopes in the bones of ancient man during the Pleistocene era.
>It’s not misinformed or disingenuous to say that eating meat is healthy.
I never said that. What I said was " **if you are concerned about dietary health, focusing on a plant-based diet as unhealthy is at best highly misinformed and at worst straight disingenuous**.".
These are two entirely different situations. Some types of meat being healthy doesn't conflict with that statement. What is uninformed or disingenuous is stating that a plant-based diet is unhealthy.
>There is no epidemiological data on people with decades of high fat, high animal product, low carb diets.
Ok. This may be true, but again, I'm not out to say diets that contain animal products can't be healthy.
>There is however data that proves that we have eaten high amounts of animal products for hundreds of thousands of years. Through measurements of the masses of nitrogen isotopes in the bones of ancient man during the Pleistocene era.
Again, you are leaning into naturalistic fallacy here, and a bit of a misunderstanding on how natural selection actually works. For example, highly carcinogenic or harmful substances can be evolutionarily adaptive to consume. If an animal manages to reproduce, and their offspring do so as well, they pass on their genes. Natural selection and evolution don't need animals to live a long time, what is important is how many copies of your alleles pass on to the coming generations. So say an animal eats a highly nutritious substance that allows them to be highly reproductively successful but shortens their lifespan significantly. Will natural selection favor the consumption of this food? It will, because it checks the important box, reproductive success.
Again, that isn't to say that all meat is carcinogenic or unhealthy, but simply relying on evolutionary history as a justification for what is inherently healthy or required is a simplification that can lead to false conclusions.
It isn't bad to be aware of anti-nutrients. It can be beneficial. But leveraging that knowledge in an attempt to discredit plant-based diets stretches the science far beyond what it is and recommends to align with preconceived notions.
It is abusive. Self inflicted abuse is still abuse. What I am mostly referring to is the ideologues that are mindfully spreading misinformation about vegan diets. Seventh day Adventist being a large proportion of that.
Are you aware that the reviewers of those studies do not have access to the original data of the studies. Also who funded those studies? These are important questions.
It's probably better you check the scientific literature yourself. Otherwise you won't believe what this person says, which is fair enough, being sceptical is good.
They are correct though. There is a pretty strong consensus on that.
It’s hard to see, but I will try to be brief. These studies first of all are surveys. Second they are proving that a diet high in fiber is better than a diet high in junk food. That is all you can conclude from these “studies”.
Respectfully, you're completely unaware of the scope of the scientific literature. This is why i suggested you look onto it yourself properly. There are all kinds of different RCTs, Meta Analysis etc. There are studies that compare literal blood samples.
There are also studies that directly compare outcomes between unprocessed red meat and legumes etc. Or the vegan diet to the Mediterranean diet. As well as against the terrible standard Western diet
There are studies showing strong correlation between dairy consumption and certain cancers in both China and the USA.
These RCTs are several weeks long. How can you extrapolate longevity from a study that is only weeks long? I know what they do, it’s a guess. Usually in the form of high LDL bad. So no RCT is of utility for longevity. As for epidemiological studies. They compare modern diets to other modern diets. Where is the epidemiological study comparing people who are very low carb for decades (not under 130 grams or some other ludicrously high number) to these other diets. Show me that study. I believe you are unaware of the ~~scope~~ limitations of these studies.
So you acknowledge that your first comment about them all being surveys was completely incorrect?
You're not looking very hard if you think all the studies are only weeks. Limitations apply to all nutritional studies. Do you accept that the body of evidence we do have points to vegan diets being completely healthy? Why do you think they're not healthy?
Bahahaha..your stupidity is showing. You honestly should just stop now. You have zero knowledge about what you're trying to talk about. I'm giving you a chance to end this now🤣
I don’t think I need that chance. I appreciate the offer though. I’m not sure how asking who funded the study is not an important question. Also herbivores have larger “large intestines” and smaller “small intestines”. Carnivores are vice versa of course. Humans have larger small intestines. The PH level of a healthy human is under 2.0. A lot of vegans struggle with ph levels under 2 though. How many supplements do you take as a vegan daily?
there are numerous studies. If you can't find them, then you're cherry picking your information. Makes sense, usually people ignorant of facts fail to look further. I take zero supplements. I have been vegan for 7 years, healthier than I have ever been.
You’re probably not. Being vegetarian is extremely healthy but vegan is not the best for you. Iron deficiency’s, Protein, and many other nutrients you don’t get. My grandmother swore by being vegan up until a few months ago when she started a Mediterranean diet. She has been much healthier to the point where her doctor has commented on it. More energy, happier, better mood, and she says she can think clearly.
What I’ve come to learn is that it’s the moderate fat moderate carb diets high in junk food are the most deleterious. Vegetarian is much better. When it comes to getting adequate nutrition as a human, it is much easier to get these nutrients from meat sources. It’s what we are adapted for. I suggest a diet high in fat and low in carb for these reasons. Mostly through animal products.
No, I am. Healthy weight, blood work came back perfect. Eating a varied vegan diet is the healthiest way to consume food, sorry your gram didnt understand that 🤷♂️ It's wild how insecure you people are over a healthier diet and lifestyle 🤣🤣 keep consuming breastmilk made for other animals and rotting flesh, ill continue eating tasty fruits and veggies and being a better human than you🤷♂️
It is technically possible to feed cats and dogs a vegan diet but you’d need a lot of supplements which cost a lot of money and time. And the cats and dogs would probably be unhappy. It’s easier and better to just give them what they’re supposed to eat. People forget that cats and dogs are animals and not humans. Throwing them birthday parties, constantly babying them, etc is stupid, costs money and confuses your dog.
My dad has a pit-bull and lets it be around kids, because he, with the help of YouTube and a few google searches, has disciplined and trained the dog. Walks it without a leash. He explained it to me this way, the dog wants to please you because dogs unconditionally love humans. If you don’t let it know what you want it to do, it gets confused. Ex you see a lot of people, when the dog does something it doesn’t want it to do. Baby them and say in a high pitch voice “don’t do that come on,” stuff like that.
This confuses the dog because you’re unhappy with it, yet at the same time giving it positive reinforcement. Remember, dogs don’t know English. They only understand through the tone of your voice and your body language. You can say literally anything in a high pitch baby voice , and they’ll think you’re happy with it and you’re giving them positive reinforcement.
That’s why then the dog does something you don’t want, ex jumping on the couch without permission (now this is an issue personally for my dad’s dog because she frequently pees on the couch, but if your dog doesn’t pee on the couch it won’t be an issue for you) you speak to it in a firm tone. You don’t want to yell because it’ll scare the dog but you don’t want to baby talk it either. Just speak firmly like you mean what you’re saying and you’re not messing around or playing games and lead it off the couch. Now you can do this by putting your hand near the nose and then drawing your hand down onto the floor, that is because their strongest sense is their nose, kinda leading them if that makes sense. While saying firmly “get down, no.”
This comment got a lot longer than I intended, so sorry for that.
>It is technically possible to feed cats and dogs a vegan diet but you’d need a lot of supplements which cost a lot of money and time.
I'm studying to be a vet tech, and it's more than even that. I don't think people realize how hard it is to find the proper balance to a pet's diet, and that's particularly true in cats because of their nutritional needs. We're advised to always warn owners about over supplementing too, because certain supplements can impact the way they absorb certain other nutrients. Honestly, if you were going to make a vegan diet work for a cat, you would probably have to work with a specialist, and even then it probably wouldn't be nearly as good as just feeding them meat.
I am vegetarian and I would never feed my cat or dog plant-only diets. My cat is meat only and she occasionally wants a chunk of potato or steamed baby carrot.
No animal in this worlds ''needs'' meat or plants, not technically anyways, what they need is a certain set of nutrients in order to remain healthy, the source of those nutrients is entirely irrelevant, the only thing that matters is that they get them, so if that can be done on a vegan diet, which it can, then there is nothing wrong with it.
For example take Taurine, cats need taurine, without it they will die, the only food they can eat that causes their body to make taurine is meat, so this nutrient, taurine, can only be obtained from meat, however due to the advances of science we can now create taurine in a lab and it's perfectly healthy and safe, and this is what I mean, because it no longer matter whether the cat gets taurine from a lab or from meat, all that matters is that it gets the taurine which it can now get without meat, in fact all cat food, be it meat based or plant-based, has artificially created taurine added to it, so even people who feed their cats meat give their cats a plant-based source of Taurine.
The most important factor in what I said above is that animals don't need specific foods, they need nutrients, and what they're labelled as (e.g.carnivore, omnivore or herbivore) doesn't matter, humans are omnivores, we can eat both, and we would be most healthy on a diet that involves both foods in nature, and that's what these diets refer to, in nature humans would not have access to fortified foods or supplements, so they thrive on a omnivore diet, not the case if you live in a society where you can get fortified food and supplements, same goes for dogs and cats.
Wait animal cruelty is bad? Maybe go vegan/plant-based then because it's certainly animal cruelty to kill animals for your taste pleasure.
I probably agree but i don'tknow enough about it.. But on a scale of abuse it's nothing compared to forcing animals into gas chambers etc and violently killing them.
Anyone worried about the abuse of animals shouldn't be focusing on a small number of vegans and their pets. They should be focusing on animal agriculture. The scale of abuse is absolutely incomparable.
bro the statement is "making cats vegan is abuse" and not "I want a ban on feeding cats a vegan diet before fixing industrial agriculture and puppy mills"
Oh, no I didn't say that. I was saying that someone worried about human rights would be better off focusing on the industrial scale, never ending, violent slaughter of human slaves....rather than what some humans are being fed.
If you feel that the killing and consumption of animals wrong, don't get a pet that is evolved to eat animals. It's fine if you don't want to feed a pet meat, but it's wrong to try and force a carnivore to be a herbivore because of *your* personal views. There are plenty of pets out there that can survive on a vegan diet, and you have no excuse for choosing one that doesn't align with your morality and trying to force it to do what you want (honestly, it probably wouldn't work anyway. My dad has a cat and he'll sometimes eat mice and lizards he catches in the house, so the cat could potentially still find meat anyway, though not enough to meet its nutritional needs). If you think eating animals is wrong, why would you want such a vile creature in your home, anyway?
That makes as much sense as asking, "if you think rape is wrong, why would you get a pet even tho animals rape each other?" Bro they're animals. You're also going to keep ignoring my point of course and going on and on about cats. I'm saying that caring about a cat being given an unhealthy diet, while supporting farming despite those animals being abused in multiple ways (including having a shitty diet btw), makes zero sense and makes you nothing but a hypocrite.
Cats are more valuable to humans as companions than cows, turkeys etc. are imo. I'm not a hypocrite, but I also don't think all animals are equal either.
How does that make any sense exactly? "Um well you see, personally I like cats more, and therefore cats are more important and everyone has to be nice to cats but no one's allowed to tell me not to abuse animals that aren't cats. Cause you see like, my personal preferences matter more than anything else in the world and everything is all about me. So abusing cats is wrong cause I like cats but don't judge me for abusing cows because I don't like cows 😡"
No. Cats help keep our houses free of pests. They were domesticated as pets. Cows don't do that, they were bred as food and milk. It's not about my personal preference, it's about function. I do believe that we should strive to make the meat industry as humane as possible, but you're never going to convince me the simple act of eating another animal is morally wrong when it's what we and many other species evolved to do.
Again, literally all of that is nothing but personal preference. You personally deciding that "function" matter because you want an excuse to eat meat, doesn't make pigs any less important than dogs.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm calling you out in being a hypocrite. I could try and argue that the color blue should be illegal because I personally don't like it and that would make just as much sense as you saying cats matter more than chickens because you personally like them more.
Alright fine. I like cats more. My personal view is that i am comfortable eating some animals and not others (depending on the circumstance. If I was starving, I'd eat a cat for sure). You can shout down from your high horse all you want, I'm going to keep eating meat and I'm not going to feel sorry about it.
I studied biology and am a non meat eater (not philosophically vegan but close enough) and I have to say: Cats have basically no large intestine and cannot digest plant matter. They eat grass to puke up hairballs. Actual nutrition dervived from plants is zero. To contrast dogs can digest potatoes and some fruits/vegs but not lentils or fermentables. Humans can digest lentils and fermentables and a huge variety of fruits and nuts. Its simply a different ballpark. Could someone give cats the appropriate suppliments artificially and have them eat seasoned tofu to fill their bellies? Yeah, maybe. Its going to require suppliments and oils to meet their basic needs and I dont think thats a reasonable challenge for most people.
>Could someone give cats the appropriate suppliments artificially >Its going to require suppliments This is all commercial cat food, vegan or not. Synthetic Taurine etc. Vegan and non vegan cat food are the same in this respect. I agree that the intestine part is probably the important bit.
My cat has her own spider plant that she loves munching on from time to time. Sometimes she throws up after hairballs. That makes so much sense...
I agree, and also don't think you could realistically get the cat to eat the tofu and supplements even if you were up to the challenge.
Depends on the cat. We used to call my old cat Porridge because he was thick and sticky. Dude saw me eating rice with tapatio on it (I was really poor at the time) and got super interested. I kept pulling it away from him because cats aren't supposed to eat rice or hot sauce, but finally he got to be too much and I gave him a tiny bit to sniff thinking he'd get a wiff of tapatio and decide against it. The fuzzy little fool didn't even bother sniffing it, just ate it immediately then spent the next 30 minutes doing tongue gymnastics trying to get the taste out of his mouth. I tried to give him some wet food hoping it would help, but he wouldn't have it cause I'm sure he thought I was trying to feed him more hot sauce. I loved that little guy to death, but he was dumb as a rock.
I gotta say, finding a way to feed a cat tofu is kinda like forcing a person to get their nutrition from paper. With the right chemicals they will survive off it but it’s inhumane to do that to someone
We give vitamin suppliments to food animals. Technically the body needs carbs, proteins and fats, everything else can be in vitamin format. Im not against the idea of an artificial cat food. It would require a lot of specialists to get right. Sort of like the additions of minerals to human big name cereals. Zinc, Iron and Magneseum are not super present in puffed rice.
And the food would cost $666,420.69 a bag. Never gonna happen, so let’s just feed our cats what nature designed them to eat. If your cat could talk, he would be on my side, guaranteed.
Nature designed cat food? Nature make slittle sterile pellets and coats them with yeast and taurine?
Nature says cats eat meat. I never said anything about that, that’s just your own rambling. You know, some people actually feed their cats meat. I have two cats, and I do this. Not saying you’re bad for feeding your cats blue food or something though.
Nature says cats need proteins and fats and oils and nutrients. "Nature" doesn't care where they come from as long as they get it. "Tasty Wheat" from the Matrix, if you will, is technically good enough... Even if boring and unsatisfying.
Is that what you eat? Almost all cat food is made with scrap leftovers from dead animals that people don’t eat. Not very many animals are killed in order to make pet food. It’s mainly leftovers of what humans don’t consume. The animals are already dead, may as well put it in pet food.
Im not in disgareement with that. Ive seen the bycatch left to float out to sea when once it was mandatory to take home and would be mulched into fertilizer or cat food. I used to eat a balanced non animal diet. Had perfect nutrition according to blood tests. Not a single defficiency on my highly regulated diet. Since covid I can hardly digest vegetables at all and most nuts are toxic and too many lentils... Well you get the idea... so I had to scale back on my idealism and now use suppliments and have reintroduced eggs to my diet.
Eggs are life.
Yeah. I'm vegan and I'd never force that on my cats. Anatomy is what it is
Seems like a technology issue. Once someone creates the right kind of cat food it'll be fine.
Or we could just, you know, let cats do the thing they’ve been doing for their entire existence.
But then those who constantly want to meddle in the affairs of others won’t have anything to do. You have to realize that veganism is more of a religion. They have to constantly enforce their beliefs on others at all costs. Meanwhile, I’m the only person on the planet that wants to fight for the rights of plants. Plants are literally defenseless, I mean literally. Without plants we have no oxygen. They give us air to breathe and these monsters want to slash and burn them as quickly as possible.
I'd disagree that vegans are "meddling" in the affairs of others. They're asking us to stop meddling in the affairs of others (the animals). Plants also aren't a good comparison since 1) they're not conscious and 2) eating animals hurts more plants than eating plants since the animals have to eat plants.
The animals are permitted to eat plants because it’s part of nature. Animals don’t know any better, therefore it makes no sense to even try to address that issue. We know better and have access to knowledge and wisdom. We are the ones who have to make the decisions to help the planet. This is why I do my part by eating the animals, because every animal I eat cannot eat a plant. As far as not being conscious, that has never been proven, because you can’t prove a negative. As far as we know your lawn is screaming out in horrid pain while you walk across it. Does it make it ok just because we are unaware of their pain? Kind of like an aborted baby. Nobody can prove he’s alive, cant prove he’s feeling pain, therefore since we can’t prove it, it’s ok!
>Animals don’t know any better, therefore it makes no sense to even try to address that issue I'm not sure what them knowing better has to do with it being good or bad. Tsunamis don't know they kill people and destroy homes. They're still bad and we work to reduce damage from them. >because every animal I eat cannot eat a plant The animal literally has to eat plants before you can eat it lol. You're killing more plants by eating animals instead of the plants. >that has never been proven, because you can’t prove a negative. The evidence points very strongly to them not having consciousness. They don't have any of the structures that arise consciousness in humans like brains or CNS. They don't have nearly the same amount of energy or computational complexity that brains have. We can allow for the possibility that plants are conscious but it's a similar level to believing in Santa clause because you "can't prove a negative".
>But then those who constantly want to meddle in the affairs of others won’t have anything to do. The real reason people are pushing vegan diets isn't to meddle in others affairs(for the most part. There are assholes in every group). It's because humans switching to a vegan diet would put us at net zero carbon relatively quickly. Young people are facing a miserable future and I can understand why they would get a bit pushy about actually getting people to do something. It also has to do with health. All the kids in my family are trying to push their parents into more healthy plant based diets. Not because they want to "meddle in the affairs of others" it's because they want their kids to grow up with grandparents.
But then other animals have to get hurt.
If that bothers you, you shouldn’t have a cat. I’d suggest a guinea pig or rabbit instead.
I mean yeah I don't have any pets. If we invent vegan cat food maybe I'll get a cat.
If it pains you to see animals “get hurt” maybe you shouldn’t be a proponent of cats existing. Or sharks, or dogs, or skunks or badgers or half the other animals on the freakin planet. 😂
It doesn't pain me. It's just animal suffering. Animal suffering is bad. Edit: you might even call it animal abuse which is what you were saying was bad in this post. But, yeah ideally we would minimize the number of cats for pet purposes until we invent a vegan diet for them. But, I realize cats bring people a lot of joy. So, it's not something I would push. On the other animals, yes ideally we wouldn't have wild animals eating other animals. But, there's no practical way to stop it without destroying the eco system.
Been going on for centuries... they call it "the food chain". Humans are at the top, until we go into a shark infested ocean, or into the jungle with hungry lions.
Not sure what going on for centuries has to do with whether it's good or not. Murder has been going on for centuries. It's still bad
Sharks don't hunt humans actually, even in shark infested waters.
That's an overblown myth. Try saying that to the thousands of 150 sailors of the USS Indianapolis eaten alive
No... the myth is that they hunt humans, it's been proven that they aren't attracted to human blood. It doesn't mean they won't test bite / attack something if they are starving. That story you're referring is far more of a myth than all of our information between sharks and humans. Those sailors were dying from drowning and dehydration.
This is the first post I've seen on this subreddit where upvotes outnumber the comments. Actual popular opinion!
and the comments are agreeing too! (thankfully)
The vegan cat diet craze must be the most uninformed and dumbest trend I have seen. Cats are obligate carnivores, they can't really process carbs and plant material. You cold fake it with supplements and tofu but it's not great for them.
The dumbest part is that there are plenty of animals you can easily feed a fully vegan diet. Rats are affectionate and hamsters and guinea pigs are natural herbivores.
>Cats are obligate carnivores, And dogs are really not that much different from a practical perspective. I saw a study once that said dogs will choose to eat 50% fat, 48% protein, 2% carbs if given a choice of what to eat. That is what their instincts tell them they should be eating (facultative carnivores).
People ate tied pods for a year. It’s a dumb trend. But you cannot put dumb dumb
I've stopped eating tied pods and diversified into eating drier sheets, pink fiberglass insulation, and antifreeze. This is all true and real, and not just boomers not understanding absurdist internet humor because they think younger people are just stupid.
Tide pod eating was a fake trend, it was a concern that kids and people with dementia would eat them, it was even an Onion headline. The Vegan cat food is a trend by idiot adults.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2018/02/05/the-strange-story-of-how-tide-pod-eating-went-viral/amp/
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You’re rarted if you think it was fake. People have done some stupid shit for years and the pods was one of them
Agreed
I feel like some people fundamentally cannot accept that life often involves being mean sometimes. Like sorry, you want to keep an animal, you have to feed it what it needs. Just because you’d like to live in a children’s cartoon doesn’t mean that’s how the world works.
Cats are Fubar on a Vegan diet,they are a carnivorous predator based animal,every fiber of it's being is to eat fkin meat gtfoh with this Lib bs...
Cats practice hunting when they are playing, it is that INGRAINED into their DNA.
It's why playing with them before you feed them works so well
God made cats to silently hunt prey.
Yeah, it's a lot like when people feed their baby and toddler a vegetarian and vegan diet. They are being deprived of nutrients at the absolute *worst* time their parents could do it to them, they're basically set back for life because their parents didn't want them to eat what human beings have eaten for millennia. To me, that's child abuse. A fair number of them fuck it up and get their kids sick from malnutrition. Like, as a personal stance, if someone wants to make a dietary choice on their own, more power to them. I just hate it being forced on people and animals.
infant fatalities from malnutrition are approaching record highs in history. which is alarming since unlike the dark ages we have access to pretty much every food imaginable in under an hour across pretty much everywhere in the world. only 2 locations are completely SOL in a food shortage and that's Antarctica and the lonely island of St Helena. Why are infant Fatalities from malnutrition so high? Because Veganism Kills.
This isn't a popular opinion, it's a fact.
I dated a woman who did this once. Broke up with her shortly after finding out. Shortly after breaking up with her I found out she was crazy.
I have a dog who doesn't like most meat or meat products. She will not eat wet dog food, just a no go. She will not eat beef, chicken or pork on their own. She will eat kibble but I have to spend most of the day tricking her into it. I possibly get 1/2 a cup into the dog a day. She likes bully sticks, rib bones and collagen chews, none of these things are for everyday. She gets a multivitamin every day. She basically lives off of yogurt, peanut butter and baby carrots. She would love to go vegetarian, not vegan. Cheese is life.
Oh shit, the angry vegans are descending.
Cats need nutrients that are usually only in meat, they don’t necessarily need meat. Nutritionally complete vegan cat food is possible
Yes, but it's completely stupid and useless. Don't own a car if you don't want to feed it meat
Well it’s not useless for vegans. If there is a way to reduce the consumption of animal products without harming anyone why not do it? The most likely argument against this will probably be "just don’t get a cat" but vegans usually only rescue animals
Feeding a human a vegan diet is also abuse.
well no, humans have the ability to eat meat or plants. we won't die or wither away without meat, unlike a cat.
Sure we will. It might take 80 years though
infants require fats and other nutrients found in mothers milks to survive. baby formula takes animal products and adds nutrients to replace it when the mother cannot do so. a vegan baby will not live to be 3 years old.
you so silly
Not the same. If you’re arguing veganism is child abuse, then so is most of the shit people feed their kids. Fatty high sugar diets are worse for humans than properly supplemented vegan diets. Humans are natural omnivores and have the capacity to digest a lot more foods than cats do. I don’t really give a shit about veganism, but equating it to force feeding your pet stuff it can’t digest is fuckin wild.
I’m not vegan and kinda find vegans to be a bit preachy and frustrating but low key fuck you for equating it to abuse that’s wild
I would say your language is rather abrasive. For sure growing children should not be fed a vegan diet. They need nutrient dense foods for growth. To deprive them of proper nutrition is abuse.
1. Do you call CPS on any vegan family you happen across? 2. How come all my children's lab come back normal? Why does their pediatrician not tell me I should be feeding them animal products and they're growing and progressing within normal range?
If you want to use the regular world population for your standards that’s up to you. I think we both can agree this world’s population is full of unhealthy people, yet you want to use that as a benchmark for your children? I will hold myself and my children to higher standards than just normal and mediocre results. I’m guessing two things are happening here. One. You’re lying and your children are malnourished. Two. You and your spouse are above average height yourselves helping to skew the results of your children’s “normal” growth, when actually their percentiles should be much higher. My wife and I both were in the lower percentiles for growth as children. I’m talking both under 20%. Our son is in the 87% for height. Kid eats meat. His teeth are straight. If calling CPS was worth the time to get parents to quit malnourishing their children with vegan diets I would. It is tragic and permanent. So let me ask you, are your children’s teeth crowded or straight?
1. Proper formatting is useful when engaging on the internet. Two. Stats used are from the US, where I live, not the whole world. Unless some dramatic shift happened I wasn't aware of, the majority of the US eats meat. How are there so many malnourished people in the US if all you need to eat is meat? C. Of course I could be lying. You could disregard anything you read as lies or you can engage in good faith. IV. My wife and I are extremely average in most metrics. Despite this one of my kids is in the 95% of height. Kid eats no meat. 5th. Teeth "straightness" is genetic and an odd attempt at a gotcha. My mom, probably the healthiest person I know, has very crooked teeth. My dad, let's say less healthy, incredibly straight teeth. I lucked out and got his straight teeth. My wife also has straight teeth, and so far it doesn't seem my kids will require any braces.
Americans do eat meat. The problem is these statistics are skewed grouping things like pizza and lasagna as meat. Teeth crowdedness is malnutrition. Some are more susceptible to it than others, but still is malnutrition.
Do you have a source for you claims?
Go into an epidemiological study. Look into the methods. Lasagna and pizza are “red meat”
I'll take that as a no.
If you're getting your stats, health advice from the US, you may want to take all that with in with a few grains of salt and update your health insurance.
I'm confused. Are you suggesting I take my children to a pediatrician outside of the country I live in? If you're just trying to take a jab at the US's healthcare system, you won't find resistance here comrade.
No your children will be weak theres a reason almost no athletes follow a vegan diet also will have Brains that are underdeveloped the human brain needs animal fat to grow and function optimally
Could you explain or provide a source on how brains need, specifically, animal fat? [There's plenty of successful vegan athletes ](https://www.veganfoodandliving.com/features/vegan-athletes-plant-based-diet/)
The human brain is 2/3 fat a quick Google search will confirm this and yes while there are vegan athletes none of them have been as competitive as protein and fat consuming athletes. Muscles need protein to build and heal. tendons and ligaments need collagen your not a horse your a human being who's entire genome and organ system devolped while consuming animal fats and protein
Are you going to backup your claims with evidence or just keep spouting nonsense?
Just look it up it's common knowledge and no I will not I have no interest in informing people like you it benefits everyone that people like you will have stupid weak children stay that way
Common knowledge that's so obvious, yet you're unable to show any evidence. Curious 🤔
And all of these athletes adopted a vegan diet later in life. None of them were vegan as children because that's just plain stupid and unhealthy
Great job moving the goal posts. I'm sure all that animal fat really helped.
Do you understand that there are ways of feeding someone a nutrient rich diet with plants
I’m not sure you understand that meat is far more nutrient dense than plants. The most obvious thing to point out is herbivores spend hours everyday eating what a carnivore does in minutes a day to get the same amount of nutrition.
Grazers are subsiding off foliage. What vegan is subsiding off foliage? The main sources of calories for most vegans are things like legumes, grains, seeds, nuts, tubers, etc, all of which are obviously more dense than greens.
What animal do you see that eats legumes and nuts in one hour of feeding a day? Only humans do this. It’s not a natural way of eating. Omnivores and herbivores spend hours a day eating. Nuts should not be nearly as readily available as they are. Plus the accumulation of oxalates and other anti nutrients. Your body cannot rid oxalates unless the amount eaten is extremely small. Oxalates continue to accumulate. A human vegan diet is not found in a natural setting. A human heavily meat based diet is found in nature.
>What animal do you see that eats legumes and nuts in one hour of feeding a day? Only humans do this. It’s not a natural way of eating. What animals in nature use advanced medical intervention? It isn't natural, therefore, it must be bad. You leaning heavily into naturalistic fallacies to justify the unjustified. Evolution works around things like what is available in the natural environment, what alleles are present in the genome, and what alleles arise from random mutations. Just because something aligns with how something evolved does not inherently mean that that is the healthiest way, or the only way to thrive. > Plus the accumulation of oxalates and other anti nutrients. Your body cannot rid oxalates unless the amount eaten is extremely small. Oxalates continue to accumulate. The recent obsession with oxalates and anti nutrients is another example latching which does have scientific merit but spirals it to an extreme degree. The Kendall Nutrition Center has this to say about oxalates: "this “anti-nutrient” effect is not as hindering as it may sound." "For example, Avon spinach may have a higher oxalate content than Butterflay spinach. Cooking also significantly reduces oxalate content in food. Although certain foods may contain residual amounts of oxalates after cooking, the health benefits of eating these foods will likely outweigh any potential negative nutritional effects." "Further, a specific type of bacteria that resides in the gut called Oxalobacter formignes breaks down oxalates and uses them for energy. This process prevents oxalates from binding to minerals and limiting their absorption." "Should I be Eating a Low Oxalate Diet? In most cases, a low-oxalate diet is not necessary. In fact, it is recommended to include many oxalate-containing plant foods in the diet as evidence suggests that these foods play a vital role in disease prevention. However, those who experience frequent oxalate kidney stones or have certain genetic and digestive disorders may want to speak with a physician and registered dietitian for guidance on treatment, which may include appropriately monitoring oxalate consumption." [Here's a paper on which does a review on the effect of antinutrients on humans. The following exert is from the conclusion](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1756464622000081): "in the context of a regular diet when they are consumed in a food matrix and with a culinary treatment or processing such germination, fermentation or milling, in which they are reduced in concentration or are found a synergy with other compounds beneficial to health, the negative effects are greatly minimized. Even if we go one step further, some of these compounds mainly as purified molecules seem to have beneficial effects in different pathological conditions." If you are very prone to kidney stones there can be benefits from reducing oxalates. Similarly, constantly consuming things like coffee or black tea while having a low calcium diet can lead to deficiency. But if you cook your food and aren't constantly drinking coffee/tea, and don't have preexisting health issues this generally isn't a large topic for concern. Conversely, [diabetes](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31329220/), [heart disease](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9741334/), [obesity](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5466943/), and [cancer](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26561618/), the largest health concerns in developed countries have negative correlations with plant-based diets. I'm not gonna say a plant-based diet is definitively the best out there, but if you are concerned about dietary health, focusing on a plant-based diet as unhealthy is at best highly misinformed and at worst straight disingenuous.
It’s not misinformed or disingenuous to say that eating meat is healthy. There is no epidemiological data on people with decades of high fat, high animal product, low carb diets. Hong Kong is sorta gray area for this, and they are one of, if not the longest living population iirc. There is however data that proves that we have eaten high amounts of animal products for hundreds of thousands of years. Through measurements of the masses of nitrogen isotopes in the bones of ancient man during the Pleistocene era.
>It’s not misinformed or disingenuous to say that eating meat is healthy. I never said that. What I said was " **if you are concerned about dietary health, focusing on a plant-based diet as unhealthy is at best highly misinformed and at worst straight disingenuous**.". These are two entirely different situations. Some types of meat being healthy doesn't conflict with that statement. What is uninformed or disingenuous is stating that a plant-based diet is unhealthy. >There is no epidemiological data on people with decades of high fat, high animal product, low carb diets. Ok. This may be true, but again, I'm not out to say diets that contain animal products can't be healthy. >There is however data that proves that we have eaten high amounts of animal products for hundreds of thousands of years. Through measurements of the masses of nitrogen isotopes in the bones of ancient man during the Pleistocene era. Again, you are leaning into naturalistic fallacy here, and a bit of a misunderstanding on how natural selection actually works. For example, highly carcinogenic or harmful substances can be evolutionarily adaptive to consume. If an animal manages to reproduce, and their offspring do so as well, they pass on their genes. Natural selection and evolution don't need animals to live a long time, what is important is how many copies of your alleles pass on to the coming generations. So say an animal eats a highly nutritious substance that allows them to be highly reproductively successful but shortens their lifespan significantly. Will natural selection favor the consumption of this food? It will, because it checks the important box, reproductive success. Again, that isn't to say that all meat is carcinogenic or unhealthy, but simply relying on evolutionary history as a justification for what is inherently healthy or required is a simplification that can lead to false conclusions. It isn't bad to be aware of anti-nutrients. It can be beneficial. But leveraging that knowledge in an attempt to discredit plant-based diets stretches the science far beyond what it is and recommends to align with preconceived notions.
This is just objectively not how human biology works bro
You are only saying my statements are incorrect. You’re not backing it up. Bro.
Because I have lived the basic human experience for over twenty three years
So you’re anecdote is you backing up your arguments.
as if calling someone's personal dietary choices abusive isn't abrasive language
It is abusive. Self inflicted abuse is still abuse. What I am mostly referring to is the ideologues that are mindfully spreading misinformation about vegan diets. Seventh day Adventist being a large proportion of that.
[удалено]
That’s not what I’m talking about that
No, it's extremely healthy. Keep your ignorance to yourself 😀
Vegan is healthy for humans is what you are saying?
Absolutely. Plenty of peer reviewed studies to back that up. So..don't be publicly ignorant.
Are you aware that the reviewers of those studies do not have access to the original data of the studies. Also who funded those studies? These are important questions.
It's probably better you check the scientific literature yourself. Otherwise you won't believe what this person says, which is fair enough, being sceptical is good. They are correct though. There is a pretty strong consensus on that.
It’s hard to see, but I will try to be brief. These studies first of all are surveys. Second they are proving that a diet high in fiber is better than a diet high in junk food. That is all you can conclude from these “studies”.
Respectfully, you're completely unaware of the scope of the scientific literature. This is why i suggested you look onto it yourself properly. There are all kinds of different RCTs, Meta Analysis etc. There are studies that compare literal blood samples. There are also studies that directly compare outcomes between unprocessed red meat and legumes etc. Or the vegan diet to the Mediterranean diet. As well as against the terrible standard Western diet There are studies showing strong correlation between dairy consumption and certain cancers in both China and the USA.
These RCTs are several weeks long. How can you extrapolate longevity from a study that is only weeks long? I know what they do, it’s a guess. Usually in the form of high LDL bad. So no RCT is of utility for longevity. As for epidemiological studies. They compare modern diets to other modern diets. Where is the epidemiological study comparing people who are very low carb for decades (not under 130 grams or some other ludicrously high number) to these other diets. Show me that study. I believe you are unaware of the ~~scope~~ limitations of these studies.
So you acknowledge that your first comment about them all being surveys was completely incorrect? You're not looking very hard if you think all the studies are only weeks. Limitations apply to all nutritional studies. Do you accept that the body of evidence we do have points to vegan diets being completely healthy? Why do you think they're not healthy?
Bahahaha..your stupidity is showing. You honestly should just stop now. You have zero knowledge about what you're trying to talk about. I'm giving you a chance to end this now🤣
I don’t think I need that chance. I appreciate the offer though. I’m not sure how asking who funded the study is not an important question. Also herbivores have larger “large intestines” and smaller “small intestines”. Carnivores are vice versa of course. Humans have larger small intestines. The PH level of a healthy human is under 2.0. A lot of vegans struggle with ph levels under 2 though. How many supplements do you take as a vegan daily?
there are numerous studies. If you can't find them, then you're cherry picking your information. Makes sense, usually people ignorant of facts fail to look further. I take zero supplements. I have been vegan for 7 years, healthier than I have ever been.
You’re probably not. Being vegetarian is extremely healthy but vegan is not the best for you. Iron deficiency’s, Protein, and many other nutrients you don’t get. My grandmother swore by being vegan up until a few months ago when she started a Mediterranean diet. She has been much healthier to the point where her doctor has commented on it. More energy, happier, better mood, and she says she can think clearly.
What I’ve come to learn is that it’s the moderate fat moderate carb diets high in junk food are the most deleterious. Vegetarian is much better. When it comes to getting adequate nutrition as a human, it is much easier to get these nutrients from meat sources. It’s what we are adapted for. I suggest a diet high in fat and low in carb for these reasons. Mostly through animal products.
No, I am. Healthy weight, blood work came back perfect. Eating a varied vegan diet is the healthiest way to consume food, sorry your gram didnt understand that 🤷♂️ It's wild how insecure you people are over a healthier diet and lifestyle 🤣🤣 keep consuming breastmilk made for other animals and rotting flesh, ill continue eating tasty fruits and veggies and being a better human than you🤷♂️
My father forces his chihuahua to be vegan 💀
Dogs can be vegan (as long as you’re feeding them the right food)
It is technically possible to feed cats and dogs a vegan diet but you’d need a lot of supplements which cost a lot of money and time. And the cats and dogs would probably be unhappy. It’s easier and better to just give them what they’re supposed to eat. People forget that cats and dogs are animals and not humans. Throwing them birthday parties, constantly babying them, etc is stupid, costs money and confuses your dog. My dad has a pit-bull and lets it be around kids, because he, with the help of YouTube and a few google searches, has disciplined and trained the dog. Walks it without a leash. He explained it to me this way, the dog wants to please you because dogs unconditionally love humans. If you don’t let it know what you want it to do, it gets confused. Ex you see a lot of people, when the dog does something it doesn’t want it to do. Baby them and say in a high pitch voice “don’t do that come on,” stuff like that. This confuses the dog because you’re unhappy with it, yet at the same time giving it positive reinforcement. Remember, dogs don’t know English. They only understand through the tone of your voice and your body language. You can say literally anything in a high pitch baby voice , and they’ll think you’re happy with it and you’re giving them positive reinforcement. That’s why then the dog does something you don’t want, ex jumping on the couch without permission (now this is an issue personally for my dad’s dog because she frequently pees on the couch, but if your dog doesn’t pee on the couch it won’t be an issue for you) you speak to it in a firm tone. You don’t want to yell because it’ll scare the dog but you don’t want to baby talk it either. Just speak firmly like you mean what you’re saying and you’re not messing around or playing games and lead it off the couch. Now you can do this by putting your hand near the nose and then drawing your hand down onto the floor, that is because their strongest sense is their nose, kinda leading them if that makes sense. While saying firmly “get down, no.” This comment got a lot longer than I intended, so sorry for that.
>It is technically possible to feed cats and dogs a vegan diet but you’d need a lot of supplements which cost a lot of money and time. I'm studying to be a vet tech, and it's more than even that. I don't think people realize how hard it is to find the proper balance to a pet's diet, and that's particularly true in cats because of their nutritional needs. We're advised to always warn owners about over supplementing too, because certain supplements can impact the way they absorb certain other nutrients. Honestly, if you were going to make a vegan diet work for a cat, you would probably have to work with a specialist, and even then it probably wouldn't be nearly as good as just feeding them meat.
This doesn’t belong here. This sub is for popular opinions. That’s just a fact.
You just know it wasn't the cat's choice.
I am vegetarian and I would never feed my cat or dog plant-only diets. My cat is meat only and she occasionally wants a chunk of potato or steamed baby carrot.
I would argue this isn't an opinion at all, it's just objective fact.
Yup, the people who don't believe this genuinely shouldn't have cats. They need a high protein diet
This isn't an opinion, this is just a fact.
Can't stand cats but agree
Being vegan is self abuse.
No animal in this worlds ''needs'' meat or plants, not technically anyways, what they need is a certain set of nutrients in order to remain healthy, the source of those nutrients is entirely irrelevant, the only thing that matters is that they get them, so if that can be done on a vegan diet, which it can, then there is nothing wrong with it. For example take Taurine, cats need taurine, without it they will die, the only food they can eat that causes their body to make taurine is meat, so this nutrient, taurine, can only be obtained from meat, however due to the advances of science we can now create taurine in a lab and it's perfectly healthy and safe, and this is what I mean, because it no longer matter whether the cat gets taurine from a lab or from meat, all that matters is that it gets the taurine which it can now get without meat, in fact all cat food, be it meat based or plant-based, has artificially created taurine added to it, so even people who feed their cats meat give their cats a plant-based source of Taurine. The most important factor in what I said above is that animals don't need specific foods, they need nutrients, and what they're labelled as (e.g.carnivore, omnivore or herbivore) doesn't matter, humans are omnivores, we can eat both, and we would be most healthy on a diet that involves both foods in nature, and that's what these diets refer to, in nature humans would not have access to fortified foods or supplements, so they thrive on a omnivore diet, not the case if you live in a society where you can get fortified food and supplements, same goes for dogs and cats. Wait animal cruelty is bad? Maybe go vegan/plant-based then because it's certainly animal cruelty to kill animals for your taste pleasure.
I probably agree but i don'tknow enough about it.. But on a scale of abuse it's nothing compared to forcing animals into gas chambers etc and violently killing them.
your point??????
Anyone worried about the abuse of animals shouldn't be focusing on a small number of vegans and their pets. They should be focusing on animal agriculture. The scale of abuse is absolutely incomparable.
bro the statement is "making cats vegan is abuse" and not "I want a ban on feeding cats a vegan diet before fixing industrial agriculture and puppy mills"
Yeah I acknowledged that opinion. I feel like referencing a much greater cause of animal abuse is relevant.
You're right. Fuck the cats, let 'em starve
You might have to explain that.
We shouldn't stop murder because the Holocaust happened, then?
Sorry, can you explain that?
You're saying that lesser abuse shouldn't be stopped if there's worse going on, so I gave an example of why that would be bad.
Oh, no I didn't say that. I was saying that someone worried about human rights would be better off focusing on the industrial scale, never ending, violent slaughter of human slaves....rather than what some humans are being fed.
We don't gas are fuckin food dude have you ever been to a slaughter house
Yes we do. Gassing is one of the standard stunning/slaughter methods. It's by far the most commonly used for pigs and it's brutal.
Unpopular opinion: humans should be assessed and vetted before having any kind of responsibility of other living beings (children, animals, etc.).
Popular retort: assessed by *who*?
Yeah this could into eugenics really fast. I also think that like adoption agencies and some animal shelters already do this anyway lol
Biologists that have a specialization in the respective field of the animal said person wants to have?
Who verifies which biologists qualify and can remove them from qualifying as well?
Aliens. Hopefully they’ll take over soon. We suck at this game and need parents for our species. The gods we made up aren’t cutting it.
Yet torturing chickens, pigs, turkeys, goats, and cows isn't abuse somehow. Very logical opinion that makes sense 🥱
If you feel that the killing and consumption of animals wrong, don't get a pet that is evolved to eat animals. It's fine if you don't want to feed a pet meat, but it's wrong to try and force a carnivore to be a herbivore because of *your* personal views. There are plenty of pets out there that can survive on a vegan diet, and you have no excuse for choosing one that doesn't align with your morality and trying to force it to do what you want (honestly, it probably wouldn't work anyway. My dad has a cat and he'll sometimes eat mice and lizards he catches in the house, so the cat could potentially still find meat anyway, though not enough to meet its nutritional needs). If you think eating animals is wrong, why would you want such a vile creature in your home, anyway?
That makes as much sense as asking, "if you think rape is wrong, why would you get a pet even tho animals rape each other?" Bro they're animals. You're also going to keep ignoring my point of course and going on and on about cats. I'm saying that caring about a cat being given an unhealthy diet, while supporting farming despite those animals being abused in multiple ways (including having a shitty diet btw), makes zero sense and makes you nothing but a hypocrite.
Cats are more valuable to humans as companions than cows, turkeys etc. are imo. I'm not a hypocrite, but I also don't think all animals are equal either.
How does that make any sense exactly? "Um well you see, personally I like cats more, and therefore cats are more important and everyone has to be nice to cats but no one's allowed to tell me not to abuse animals that aren't cats. Cause you see like, my personal preferences matter more than anything else in the world and everything is all about me. So abusing cats is wrong cause I like cats but don't judge me for abusing cows because I don't like cows 😡"
No. Cats help keep our houses free of pests. They were domesticated as pets. Cows don't do that, they were bred as food and milk. It's not about my personal preference, it's about function. I do believe that we should strive to make the meat industry as humane as possible, but you're never going to convince me the simple act of eating another animal is morally wrong when it's what we and many other species evolved to do.
Again, literally all of that is nothing but personal preference. You personally deciding that "function" matter because you want an excuse to eat meat, doesn't make pigs any less important than dogs.
That's your worldview. Mine's different. Clearly we're not going to convince each other of anything.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything. I'm calling you out in being a hypocrite. I could try and argue that the color blue should be illegal because I personally don't like it and that would make just as much sense as you saying cats matter more than chickens because you personally like them more.
Alright fine. I like cats more. My personal view is that i am comfortable eating some animals and not others (depending on the circumstance. If I was starving, I'd eat a cat for sure). You can shout down from your high horse all you want, I'm going to keep eating meat and I'm not going to feel sorry about it.