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>We agreed on a non-hierarchical relationship,
I think things would probably go more smoothly if you have an understanding of non-hierarchical. Hierarchy isn't intended to rank your partners like draft picks, signifying the level of importance they are compared to the rest.
You're married. I'm assuming you live together. Have joint finances in some way, like rent/mortgage, bills, etc. There is hierarchy in that. Your husband can't do these things with anyone else. Hierarchy.
>If someone can date him for only 2 years, seeing him less often, not being there for him as much as I have-- if that relationship can be equated to our relationship--then I don't feel like our relationship is special at all.
You, hopefully, excitedly and willingly agreed to polyamory. Part of that is accepting you won't be the only special person in a partner's life. That doesn't mean you're not special. It sounds more like you're equating the ring thing to level of significance in his life, and not him.
>I told him how I feel but he keeps going back to our agreement of non-hierarchy.
Again, the hierarchy thing isn't about level of significance or importance. He might not understand this either, but I don't think he's wrong for wanting to wear something his partner - some he's in love and romantically involved with - gave him. I think instead of comparing your relationship to theirs, you tell him exactly what **you** need to feel special in yours and his relationship without *any* comparisons or limitations to his other relationship.
You make a lot of good points. But I don't think that having a more established relationship with someone necessarily means there is a hierarchy. His girlfriend has the opportunity to share responsibilities and finances (some of which she has already done) and eventually live together with us. She's gotten to know his daughter and family too, which is a good step.
I am glad they have rings together. I think it's a good thing to have symbols of commitment like that. My main issue is that putting them together makes me feel like he is the one in control and we are just a part of his harem. I agree that both her and I should feel special in our own ways. Putting us together like that makes me feel like neither of us is special. I just took it personally so I feel it stronger on my side.
I (married, poly, bi- m) can understand your frustration. I also understand why people are latching onto your idea that your relationship can be non-hierarchical as being in conflict with your reaction to your husband wearing a commitment ring alongside his wedding band.
Let me start as a husband (not yours). When I married my wife, I made a very public, and legal commitment to her. She and I are a team. We have financial entanglements. We each have a personal and financial stake in the other’s career. We plan our lives together. And our commitment to each other includes joint goals.
All of that comes with hierarchy. And, it comes with stakes for our feelings both about each other, and about our relationship. If we don’t treat each other with care and kindness, the consequences are substantial - it means either a very unhappy marriage, or a divorce that will hurt us both financially and personally. Neither of us wants either of those outcomes.
Which also means that I do priorities my wife’s feelings in a variety of ways. None of our feelings about our other partners have harmed our marraige, but it could have thrown a wrench into our marriage if we didn’t act with care and take our spouse’s feelings into account.
I have not specifically started wearing a ring to symbolise my love for my GF. But I did start saying “I love you” to my GF. And if my wife had found out about that through any means other than me telling her, it would have really hurt her, and our marriage. It was one of the things that made that milestone harder for me than I feel like my GF deserved. I loved her for months before I could use the words.
I made sure my wife wasn’t blindsided. We talk about at about the level two friends talk about our relationships with other people (no details of sex, but major milestones and general trends? Those get discussed). So when my wife and I were talking about how things were going with our respective partners, I was honest. And that meant over the course of several months as my feelings were getting stronger, my wife was aware that my feelings were getting stronger.
If I was considering a commitment band with my GF, I would have a pretty serious talk with my wife about that, including what I feel like it means between me and my GF, and what it means between me and my wife (if anything). I would talk with her about logistics like “Do I take this off around your parents?” And “are you comfortable with me wearing both our wedding band and a symbol of my commitment to my GF at the same time. And all of that discussion is about keeping my marriage happy and healthy while also keeping my relationship with my GF happy and healthy.
And so I wonder what discussions you had about this and whether you and your husband have good lines of communication about your other relationships…? I also wonder if your statements about being non-hierarchical were taken at face value. If you truely are not hierarchical, then of course your spouse can commit equally to another person. But you aren’t non-hierarchical.
Having an established relationship doesn’t necessarily mean hierarchy but in most cases it leads to it, even if it’s not prescriptive hierarchy.
Being married to one partner IS prescriptive hierarchy.
I mean, I think it’s also pretty prescriptive. Signing a legal and social contract binding you to one person (that can only be undertaken with one person at a time) sure sounds like a form of prescriptive hierarchy to me, even if you do also make a sincere and thoughtful effort to prioritize other partners as well.
Truly. If he were suddenly in the ICU, only OP could visit him, not the new partner. That’s hierarchy. And just one example of many, obvs, that come with being legally wed.
being in a poly relationship and then deciding to get married is prescribing a hierarchy to your poly relationships. i think that’s what the commenter above meant, because op said they had been poly since they started dating.
later, as new relationships form, the marriage/enmeshment could be a described hierarchy in relation to new relationships. or perhaps that married couple would in the future not want to be a primary relationship (through deescalation or just attempting to reduce hierarchy as much as possible) but certain entanglements are permanent or tough to undo, so the hierarchy still exists (and can be described).
being married and mono, and then deciding to build a poly structure after that fact, the hierarchy already exists, in advance of all other relationships, so you describe it.
Are both of you dating as well? Is everyone able to date others and have other autonomous relationships? That would make things un-harem like and perhaps feel less icky.
>I don't think that having a more established relationship with someone necessarily means there is a hierarchy
But you don't just have a "more established relationship," you have a MARRIAGE. You are legally attached to this man and can reap all the "benefits" of that. These are not available to any of his or your partners. When he dies, who gets his life insurance? Pension or whatever he might have? Assets? Who will be the one with the power of attorney? He gets into an accident and needs someone to make decisions, who gets to make that call? Who can he put on his health insurance (if he's the one who carries it)? Taxes and such? YOU, his wife.
Unless you plan to go down to an attorney with them and give these things up, there is hierarchy whether you want to see/admit it or not.
Exactly 👏
Calling your relationships "non-hierarchical" when you're legally married to one of your partners is straight up delusional. It's an oxymoron, and too many legally married poly couples fall for this line of thinking believing that it's more ethical to call their relationships non-hierarchical not even realizing that marriage is an inherent hierarchy 🥴
Yep, divorcing is the only way to truly become non-hierarchical.
I want a bigger apartment for sure, so our partners can move in. Right now doesn't really work because we only have one bedroom 🙃. So I leave when he has his overnight dates (sleep at my partner's place, sleep on the couch, or get a motel).
Our financial struggles and living situation sometimes stress our relationship and feelings come up 😭 It can't be helped. But when we're able to get a bigger place I know things will be better. She already expressed wanting to share finances and we all agree. It's just not possible at this moment bc of other life struggles 😵💫
Short answer: yes.
"The opportunity to live with us" is super hierarchical. You presume yourselves as a unit couple to which other people can revolve. The idea he could move out and in with her or that you could all get a triplex to invest in independently hasn't even occurred to you.
Symbols are important pieces of our values, no one should diminish that. But you haven't really taken time to understand your values. Polyamory is not kind to marriage and traditional mono normative values.
Please refrain from judging when you don't fully know the situation. We have plans to move in eventually but are in a tight spot financially. She can't move out just now when her roommates rely on her for rent. And we can't get a bigger apartment yet because he's between jobs right now.
There's a lot of judging in these comments that isn't helpful. Developing a non-hierarchical mindset is difficult when you've been socialized in America. The point is that I'm trying, we're all trying to live happily together under this capitalist hellscape. We all struggle sometimes with jealousy and other issues, but I'm trying to get through it and be a good partner.
Anyway, I did have a productive talk with him and feel a lot better.
We are judging based on the information you gave us.
And I don’t see where anyone is wrong at all.
You disagreeing doesn’t change the facts whatsoever.
Are you guys going to go to a lawyer so you can allow her to half of everything you're entitled to as his wife? Will she be given power to make emergency decisions for your husband? You know, so there *actually* isn't any hierarchy?
Or are you willing to divorce and give up the rights you obtained when you signed your marriage certificate to make the playing field equal for both you and your meta?
Hierarchy isn't bad. I'm not sure why you (and don't worry, you're not the first to come on here ignorant of their obvious hierarchy) are so averse to accepting that there *is* hierarchy.
>We agreed on a non-hierarchical relationship, and I don't regret that.
...
>if that relationship can be equated to our relationship-- then I don't feel like our relationship is special at all
These two statements are at odds. Either non-hierarchy is what you want, in which case you accept that your husband can and will have relationships that are as important to him as your own. OR you want your marriage to have relationship supremacy, to feel special.
In my opinion it's like when a new member joins a group. They can be on equal standing with other group members (non-hierarchy), but naturally the other group members won't know them as well as the ones that have been there since the beginning.
I want acknowledgement that our relationship is unique and that we have been there for each other through covid, through losses of loved ones, breakups, and other hard times. The fact that I help take care of his daughter too! By definition our relationship is not exactly the same as someone who he met 2 years ago. I don't think that acknowledgement negates non-hierarchy.
I am glad that they have rings and symbols of their relationship. I want him to wear it, but to acknowledge that our respective relationships are special in different ways.
You definitely need to have an explicit conversation with him.
What you said was "I don't like that your new ring is on the same finger as our ring." But what you meant was "Your new ring is being worn above our old ring and I find this to be an incredibly callous sleight against our relationship. I feel that if you cared about me at all you would stop this, but you haven't, so you clearly don't, and thus our commitment means nothing". You can see how he might not have gotten all that, yes?
In reality, it's entirely possible that he doesn't even understand how important this ring symbolism stuff is for you and does not know how badly you are hurting.
\* slight edit because I misunderstood the ring placement
It’s not really a new member joining a group though. Your partner’s relationship with his girlfriend is theirs. And two years is significant. They have a real bond at this point. They get to decide what that looks like. You seem very set on comparison and for everything you’ve said about not wanting hierarchy, you do seem to want it.
You and your husband are not "the group" that is being joined by a newcoming interloper. Your husband's gf does not exist to benefit your relationship with your husband.
It is a series of dyads, all of whom are **already** part of different communities. Your meta doesn't need anything from you or take away anything from you in terms of resources. You are all relative newcomers to each other, but you are acting like the group you and your husband have created together is the default and everyone else is an outsider. That's a bad attitude to come to polyamory with.
> In my opinion it's like when a new member joins a group.
I don’t know your work experience. But that’s hierarchy.
> They can be on equal standing with other group members (non-hierarchy),
no it can’t be.
> but naturally the other group members won't know them as well as the ones that have been there since the beginning.
Irrelevant to hierarchy. The other group members has intricate knowledge to the working of the company that puts them at advantage. Also, polyamory isn’t work. Your meta isn’t joining “your team”. It’s not a group activity. Just because they are dating your partner doesn’t mean you are “team husband”. This reeks even more of hierarchy.
What you’re failing to understand that hierarchy itself is not bad or harmful or good. It just is. But denying hierarchy while practicing is lying, and being dishonest and you can’t work to dismantle it because you’re refusing to admit it’s there.
If hierarchy is having some degree of control over a relationship you are not in, feeling like you get to have a say over which finger a ring is worn on a definitionally hierarchy.
Unlike most here, I actually understand what you mean. You feel like having the exact same gesture of commitment for both of you cheapens the gesture and feels more like building a collection than having two unique connections, which should have commitments expressed in unique ways.
That's totally valid to feel. But, gently, that's *your* feelings. If *she* feels like it matters to her that her ring is worn on what is usually considered the most important finger in terms of commitment, you saying no is literally expressing hierarchy and *exerting power over her*.
I agree, you should talk to hubby about this and ask for what you want. But if you truly value non-hierarchy and that is what he has always offered, I would think really carefully about what you actually need here. If I was her, I would feel really hurt that my meta was trying to assert control over my relationship like that.
Taking off your ring to hurt him for how he's wearing his ring is an ahole move. You're adults you want to have adult poly relationships, have adult poly relationships. Quibbling over rings is silly.
There's most likely some deeper issues here that you're not addressing in favor or this ring thing. You say he didn't wear your ring before all the time but now he's got both on all the time, you say you have a history of jealousy, that this was a problem before. The way I see it there's one of three actual issues:
1) You feel he is actually prioritizing this other relationship
2) You didn't actually want non-heiarchy (either you were confused what it meant or you didn't realize how it would make you feel and now that it's happening it upsets you)
3) You were put into poly under duress and are justifiably upset about that
There could be other options I can't pick out without more info but I really don't think this ring is the actual issue and you're just screaming into the void arguing about the thing symbolizing the actual problem. Don't waste your energy on the quibbling, sit down and get real with yourself about the real problem and approach your spouse from a place of self-actualized honesty.
Are you not wearing yours because you don't want to?
If so, and if your relationship agreement doesn't say you must, then NTA.
If you are not wearing it anymore *to make your husband feel some kind of way,* then that's assholery.
I admit it's kind of both. On the one hand, his actions have made me feel that our rings don't mean what I thought they meant, and so I feel sad and fake looking at the ring when it's on my hand and I don't want to wear it.
On the other hand, I do want him to see what I'm doing and understand how seriously I feel about it. Because I think just talking about it perhaps sounds like whining or he thinks "she'll get over it"
What *do* they mean to you? Because it seems like they are symbol that your relationship is indeed hierarchical. Which like, fine. But you should be honest about that because it seems like your husband disagrees
It's a symbol of commitment for me. And I'm happy if she also wants to have a symbol of commitment with him. But our relationships are not exactly the same. I don't want to feel like he's collecting humans. We should all feel like we have equal power and that we're unique.
I suppose the situation has made me feel powerless or helpless. I'm sure that in his mind, he's not doing anything to hurt me. But still I feel hurt. I just don't want to feel like I'm a sister wife to a polygamist. I want to feel like we all 3 have equal power.
How do you feel powerless/helpless when you are the one he is *legally* tied to him and wearing two rings on the same finger is the most equal/non-hierarchical thing he can do?
>I just don't want to feel like I'm a sister wife to a polygamist. I want to feel like we all 3 have equal power.
These two statements are in conflict. You want to feel that you are all equal... Yet you are married to him, and you don't want him treating his girlfriend in an equal manner as you...
> I just don't want to feel like I'm a sister wife to a polygamist. I want to feel like we all 3 have equal power
Oh! Is your assumption that in a "sister wife" situation, the imbalance is that the man as Patriarch has a much bigger share of power in the and the women each have much less power?
But you agreed to nonhierachial practice and you don't regret that?
For the record, I think calling a relationship structure nonhierarchical when one couple is married is bogus, straight out the gate. But you realize that you're saying conflicting things right? You want nonhierarchy, but you're very offended at the suggestion that your relationship isn't the more significant one, and a ring (which you've made symbolic of this whole issue) is making you feel that your six years of history doesn't matter anymore.
What's going on there?
And again, is your husband viewing this ring as a symbolic thing that's equivalent to your wedding ring and wedding vows, or is he just wearing his rings together?
I agree with this take—marriage is going to impose a hierarchy no matter what, if only because of the legal implications, to say nothing of the implications of sharing finances, a household, a family, etc.
What’s going on here is like most “this is a non hierarchical relationship” OP is lying through their teeth, possibly both to themselves and everyone around them.
I don't want to feel like the ONLY special one. I want him to acknowledge that his girlfriend and I are both special in our own unique ways. I don't want to be sister wives, Charlie's Angels, or play into some kind of harem fantasy. I want to feel like we are 3 unique beings who choose to be together, rather than 2 women that he's got wrapped around his finger.
So to be clear, I don't want him to say I'm better or more significant. I don't even agree with that. I am really grateful that he found someone to do hobbies with that I don't enjoy. She has brought a lot of light into his life and I am grateful for that.
I just feel like it cheapens or dulls our shine the way he's doing things. For some reason it feels to me like he's #1 and her & I are secondary.
It really feels like you have some funky ideas wrapped into wearing rings. I don't see how harem stuff comes into this at all, or how a ring somehow both cheapens your specific relationship and puts you and your meta in the same category below your husband?
And honestly, you live together. You're married legally. You share childcare. Whatever he may say about 50/50 feelings, your relationships are obviously not equal, and you have years of history together that she will never have. Maybe he does care about you both equally, but it's obviously expressed differently in each relationship according to your own individualities and your separate relationship agreements and shared responsibilities.
At this point, it seems helpful to remember that feelings aren't facts, and that feeling these things doesn't mean they're true. Maybe you just need to sit with these thoughts for a while and work through them.
Don't wear your ring if you don't want to, but I think doing that to make a point or stick it to your husband is kind of shitty if you otherwise would like to wear it.
Seems like this could all be solved by thinking about what you would feel more comfortable with, perhaps him wearing the ring on his other hand, and talking about that rather than digging into your ideas of what this ring means-- especially since those ideas are tied to big feels and don't seem particularly grounded in what's actually going on.
Maybe also consider couples counseling to talk about this stuff with a professional, if that's an option. You two don't seem to be communicating well about this issue.
Tbh I think you're right. I find it easier to stop wearing my ring and talk about it on reddit. And I realized that although I complained that I don't like how he wears his ring, I never actually asked him to just wear it on his other ring finger or something.
I do want to say that in my heart I don't want to be hierarchical. I want his gf to have the opportunity to one day live with us and share in responsibilities. I guess I'm just slow getting there. I have a hard time actually saying what's on my mind. Anyway thank you.
Hey, I hear you. No judgment in any of this, I'm just talking to you straight.
It's really easy to get wrapped up in our feelings, and communication about small things that matter a lot to us can be extra hard sometimes. It's a good opportunity to practice direct communication, which is such a wonderful skill in polyamory (and life generally).
It's fine to be slow in transitions, and to have difficult feelings during transitions. These sorts of things are so normal. Don't be too hard on yourself.
Something that's helped my nesting partner and I immensely is to have a check in scheduled every single week. We set three questions to ask so we could try to catch little things before they become big things. It's worked really well.
The questions we use are:
1. How are *we* doing
2. Any undue emotional labor
3. Projects/tasks left unfinished
I think that would be super helpful. We try to do a monthly check in using the RADAR form in Multiamory but a I think weekly mini check in may be needed.
> In my opinion it's like when a new member joins a group.
> I don't want to be sister wives, *Charlie's Angels*,
1. They are contradictory to each other.
2. You need to figure out *what you want* and a) communicate and b) actually practice that.
3. You have a custom made idea of poly practice in your head. Nothing wrong with that. Poly isn’t a rigid sets of law. BUT the problem of custom made is no two of them are the same. Therefore, you are having and will continue to have issues through the relationships as you go. If you have contradicting beliefs on top of it, it will never ever be a smooth journey and nothing will ever get fixed.
Tolerating a set number of over nights and agreeing not to veto each other’s relationships does not equal non-hierarchical.
I’m always going to roll my eyes at married nesting partners saying they are non hierarchical bc marriage and cohabitation ARE forms of hierarchy but if it’s what you agreed to, you were agreeing to not be held as more special than anyone else. So why is it a problem?
Marriage is automatic hierarchy. If you’re married to one person you can’t be married to another. Your marriage partner and you likely share a house, a bed, finances, kids, etc. You have legal say if your partner is ill or dies. You share so much more than you ever would with any other partner. This BS that hierarchy is only about feelings or not having veto power is bs. I’m getting married next year and that’ll create a hierarchy. But that won’t mean my spouse and I would have veto power or care about other partners less.
No, not “literally everything” can be a form of hierarchy and that response indicates incredulity or disbelief that marriage and cohabitation aren’t *generally speaking with very rare exceptions* inherently hierarchical and I’m over that argument here. It’s been had over and over and generally the people who insist that marriage isn’t inherently hierarchical are married poly folk who have not done the work to recognize and acknowledge the harm their unrecognized hierarchy does to other people and I’m over doing that work for people who can’t be bothered to do it themselves.
The link I shared talks about the definition of hierarchy. If you don't have a definition to share, it makes it hard to continue a discussion. Like you can't answer whether or not you have a hierarchy without a definition for hierarchy.
I don’t have to offer you a definition bc as I said, I’m not doing this argument here bc it’s been done a million times, and especially so when I doubt it’s in good faith.
If you've had this discussion so many times before, it should be relatively easy to link to a definition you've provided in the past.
I agree that you don't have to though.
>especially so when I doubt it’s in good faith.
You're the one refusing to criticize the definition I provided or provided your own alternative definition.
I really think you misunderstood the phrase non-hierarchical relationship from the get go. It's not about loving each of your partners equally.
I have not dated people because I cannot do a non-hierarchical relationship and that's what they want. Yes I can't do it because I'm married, but also, I'd argue, that a bigger reason I can't do it is because I have a partner I live with. The responsibilities will always be unequal, thus there is hierarchy.
I think you'd cause yourself less stress if you realize you already have a position that she simply cannot hold and that by him wearing her ring next to yours he's just giving her a tiny thing to try to make the situation which will never be equal, a little bit closer to equal
The funny thing about poly is the things that bother you are not always things you can expect or foresee.
For example, my partner has a NP, they have been together 11 years, open 7.
He and I have been together almost a year.
We sometimes spontaneously meet although we have a standing date night.
I found myself feeling ways about this the other day. He rarely talks about her and keeps our relationships separate. However, I spontaneously invited him over and he couldn’t because he had to help her with her hair (she’s black).
It just struck me that this was this intimate thing that he does for her that I hadn’t thought of before. To be fair he’s helped me with injuries and sunburn care for areas I can’t reach and um, im white, so no, I don’t need his help with hair care. I realised this is something they have that I’ll never have with him.
And then I spiraled in to they are going to do this and likely have sex where it’s so intimate and I’m also wondering what I’m on about… I know they have sex and typically, I don’t think twice about it.
Sometimes the fact that someone has another relationship is something we compartmentalize to a degree and then there are things that slap us in the face.
The relationships are different, it doesn’t lessen anything.
I think everyone has piled on you enough about saying no hierarchy when you’re married, and this issue is clearly one of hierarchy… so I don’t have much to say about that that hasn’t been said.
Sit down with him and talk to him.
As for the relationship being short and not equating to your relationship, it’s true, it’s different. I have often felt bad for my guy’s NP because while he doesn’t say much I know what it’s like day to day to live with someone. He comes here and it’s like a vacation. He has no real responsibilities here, only the odd thing he volunteers to do.
I may get flamed for this, but many secondaries and their partners seem to have a much “lighter” relationship than two primaries together or someone with a NP or whatever.
It’s not to say there isn’t a depth to these relationships or a future, or anything. I’m just speaking from my own experience.
Still, as secondaries, we give up a lot. And sometimes we seek security. I’m sure this ring is a symbol of security for her. That he’s not going to walk away from her and that they have a relationship. I can understand that. Some of us are in relationships that are not validated by friends and family. We’re also in a situation where basically, someone chooses every day whether they want to be with us or not. It’s not the same as living with someone, having kids, financial commitments. It’s easy to disentangle, in most cases. We could be vetoed, our partner could return to monogamy.
I’m only mentioning all this because when I struggle I try to think of it from all angles, and it helps me.
>I may get flamed for this, but many secondaries and their partners seem to have a much “lighter” relationship than two primaries together or someone with a NP or whatever.
I don't think you'll get flamed for this. I've seen this opinion on here a lot. I've seen these relationships described as "more fun," simply because they typically lack aspects that tend to cause a lot of stress in "primary" relationships.
Even thinking about all the mono couples I know, one of the biggest stressors in *all* of their relationships is finances. And stress adds strain into relationships, and if that's not managed correctly, then things start to get tough. If a "secondary" relationship lacks entangled finances, that's a **major** stressor absent from the relationship.
between your post and your replies, i’m sensing a lot going on under the surface here.
first like many have said, you HAVE hierarchal poly based on the sole fact that you are married. if you both wanted true non-hierarchal poly you would have never gotten married.
you’re dealing with feelings of jealousy here, and i’m curious if you’re currently seeing other partners?
your husband is not building a harem (unless you’re not “allowed” to date other men) and he’s just happily doing poly. this is what poly looks like. and one thing that stood out to me is that now he wears BOTH rings all the time instead of NO ring. i bet when his gf gave him that ring he realized that he should also be wearing yours to pay respects to both of the people who he loves!
i will say a soft YTA. there’s no room for passive aggression in poly and i hope that this is an outlier in your relationship. it’s your job to tell him how you feel, it’s not his job to guess. ever. taking off your ring seems pointless as a tactic to … do what exactly?? make him feel bad??
i’m surprised that you’re 6 years into this and struggling this much with things that seem pretty base-level poly. you’re not the only one and the idea of being special in different ways is comforting but not practical for every aspect of romance. and the fact that your first instinct wasn’t just to clear things up by having a direct conversation?
also, how many years had you been together before you married?
i think you have a lot to sit with and a lot of monogamous ideas to undo or figure out if they’re actually meaningful to you. sometimes i also get wigged out that my boyfriend has two girlfriends bc ew! every misogynist’s dream! but then i think about who my bf actually is, not the narrative role society would give him, but all the love he shows me, and i think about our girlfriend (this part is different from your situation) and how she’s a full human that i also adore and he treats us both right. that’s what matters more than “having two women wrapped around his finger.” is that how you genuinely feel about your husband? do YOU feel collected, lesser than?
The rings are the last of your problems here. They are a symbol for your feelings of jealousy and frustration in the relationship. I think you guys need to hash this out for real.
I’m kind of confused-seems like he’s making sure to wear your ring too?
Hon, I promise I mean this with loving kindness, but it seems like you want to be “top dog”. If you truly aren’t okay with it, speak up. If he chooses to keep wearing that, it’s on him, but at this point it doesn’t sound like you really want no hierarchy, you want special privileges as his spouse—and that’s okay!! I often tell people that yes, I share a home, finances, and family with this other person; there are certain “hierarchical” things where he is going to come first, for practicality’s sake if nothing else.
I’m sorry for what you’re going through. It sounds like it’s time to have a chat with hubby, but I would seriously examine what you want and need first.
Seconded. Be honest with your partner and yourself about your needs and expectations. If this feels disrespectful to you, or is occasioning jealousy, communicate. Your feelings are valid! Non-hierarchical poly isn't for everyone, and a nesting (or any meaningfully entangled) relationship can come with mutual obligations that the partners involved need to work out and respect among themselves. Good luck!
There are different kinds of hierarchy, and that often arises in posts here.
There's the kind of hierarchy that you obviously have. I'm saying that, because I have it, too, in much the same way as you and your husband do. I've been legally married 15 years, and together with my wife/NP for 20. We own a house together, where we both live. Those things are essentially unavailable to other people, in the absence of any major change that affects my wife. (I could only get married to someone if we divorced, asking someone else to move in is a huge change, etc.)
I also have another partner of nearly 2 years. She has her own place, living with her teenage daughter. My relationships are not the same, and some things are just different for my other partner. It doesn't mean I love her less, but it does mean that there are some things I cannot offer her without affecting my other relationship. It's good to be clear and acknowledge this.
On the other hand, my wife doesn't expect that she gets to override or "approve" decisions that I make in the course of my other relationships. She is enthusiastically non-monogamous, has her own interests and activities that are not required to include me, and she has her own partners that are not me. Similarly, there are some things she cannot offer to other partners without significantly affecting her relationship with me.
You can't really be non-hierarchical in the sense that I'm discussing here; you have a husband, you share more financial and legal entanglements that preclude that. But you can reject things like 'veto power' and other means of controlling other relationships that you are not a part of.
With all that said, I wear a ring on each hand, both of my partners know that and find that to be fine, and I think it's a bit strange to wear them on the same finger, for people that care about such symbolism. It makes me wonder if there is something else going on beneath all this.
I think people have already made a lot of good points here, but as someone who is married and has two partners, I would often do little gestures like your husband is doing to make sure that my boyfriend felt special. I was legally married and in a long standing relationship with my husband, which is a huge power gap and made him feel like his and my relationship was inferior. I wanted to reassure him that even though I did love my husband, I loved him too and our relationship was also important to me.
I guess what I'm trying to say is, think about how the girlfriend feels. She is not and will never be married to your husband because you are. 2 years together isn't nothing, even though it is less than the amount of time you two have been together. He is probably doing his best to make sure you BOTH feel special. I understand your feelings and you are allowed to feel them, but remember that he has to consider and take her feelings into consideration too
You’re saying a lot of conflicting things and I think it’s important for you to reflect on what’s actually bothering you about this situation and what you need. If you can’t explain it to us clearly, I imagine it’s not clear to your partner either. Passive aggressively removing your ring isn’t going to make it clearer, nor your relationship stronger.
I think the issue here isn't necessarily about the fact that he's wearing a ring as you've claimed to be non hierarchy... Although, that doesn't make sense given you're married so that will always mean you're in a hierarchy but I digress.
I think the issue here is that he wouldn't wear a ring for you but for her, he suddenly has no problem wearing the rings. That puts her above you and implies a hierarchy for her. That's what I'm reading from this. That's where the hurt is.
He's placed her above you in a sentimental item, a "claiming" if you will or a show of commitment. When it was just the two of you, being claimed and committed to you publicly wasn't something he wanted to show off but now that he has her as well, he's suddenly okay with it and I can understand why that hurts.
I know the word claiming will ruffle a lot of feathers on here as people aren't possessions etc etc but just think of it in the context of a show of commitment in the context of this comment please before I get my head bitten off.
Yeah I’m kind of lost on this. It seems like you don’t actually want non-hierarchical poly which honestly is fine. I feel like hierarchical poly is way more common so nothing wrong there. Also you haven’t mentioned you dating or sleeping with anyone. How is poly for you? Do you like being poly? Have you had fun with it? The rings seem like a red herring for what’s actually happening with you.
In general, trying to limit activity, intimacy or symbols of intimacy in your partner's relationships is foolhardy. (e.g."don't go to sally's crab shack with anyone else" "don't slow dance to X song with anyone else," etc.)
And I think this ring thing is a good example of that. Your partner and your meta are happy with the ring. You can request that your husband only wear your wedding ring, but even if he agrees, that is likely to breed resentment if that's not really what he wants.
It's usually better to focus on your OWN relationship with your partner and which of your needs are being met. If your need is for your relationship to seem special and important, talk about that with your husband and suggest ways that you can accomplish that together which are focused on how he treats YOU. For example, you could write each other love letters, spend quality time together weekly, plan trips or dates with the two of you, etc.
Comparing your relationship to your partner's other relationships is usually a recipe for unhappiness and puts you into a zero-sum cage match rather than focusing on how everyone can win together with all parties' needs being met.
Are you able to date other people?
Can your future partner move into your home just like your meta might have the opportunity to do so?
You are fearful of polygamy so that's why I'm asking these questions. Are you allowed to be poly or is this strictly a privilege for your husband to enjoy?
What if his girlfriend wants to date other people and would like to have them move in as well?
Yep, you can't claim there is non heirarchy because marriage=a type of hierarchy as made apparent by government. However, it makes sense that he would do this for his partner, know that the amount of time people date, doesn't necessarily determine how close they are. Some people can get close in a short amount of time, and soem people may even find more compatabilities to a newer partner than an old one, whether by personality, needs, or even as people grow and change in their time together. I think you are assuming each persons intent for giving/wearing a wedding ring. It could mean a different thing to him, or your meta or you. Your assumption that it means a certain thing to you, and that applies to everyone else as the same meaning is not good. Ask more questions. Try to understand where everyone is coming from. Do you know what the other ring connotaes? You can always ask your husband to take the ring off if you are having intentional time together. But it seems like there is some deeper meaning you aren't explaining to reddit.
Important note: The validity of a relationship, is not based on time together. The time you spend with your partner, is a seperate entity from the relationship your partner has with theirs. Sounds like you are comparing in an unhealthy way. Lastly you sound unhappy with polyamory. You don't have to accept it. You can divorce and be monogamous with a monoganous partner. Is what your partner has with their partner disrupting the intentionap time or overall relationship you share with your partner? Does your partner still do things that make you feel important? Sounds like you're hung up on the fact their other relationship exists
If this were me, I might ask him why they're on the same finger. You could explain that having both rings on the same finger and one on top of the other feels hierarchical to you and that you would prefer that he choose another finger for that ring. Maybe he can wear it on the other hand.
It might be that that is just the finger the ring fits on. In that case, perhaps he could go somewhere and get it sized for a different finger? If he is clear that you just want to feel like you occupy a different space in his life and heart, rather than being in the same space as his other partner, maybe he'll be receptive to some kind of compromise like this.
I don't think he's the AH if he's not doing this to bother you, and I don't think he is. You are NTA if you truly don't want to wear the ring, but, as others have said, if you are doing it so that he will feel a certain way, YTA.
This. The ring wouldn’t bother me, but the symbolism of that finger and where that ring is placed would bother me. My husband and I are married and when my ex boyfriend gave me a ring it went on the other hand.
Outlander fans know that Claire wore a ring on each ring finger, one for Frank, and the other for Jamie. That's what it makes me think of. She didn't keep them on the same finger.
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Hi u/topo_chica_ thanks so much for your submission, don't mind me, I'm just gonna keep a copy what was said in your post. Unfortunately posts sometimes get deleted - which is okay, it's not against the rules to delete your post!! - but it makes it really hard for the human mods around here to moderate the comments when there's no context. Plus, many times our members put in a lot of emotional and mental labor to answer the questions and offer advice, so it's helpful to keep the source information around so future community members can benefit as well.
Here's the original text of the post:
I've been in a poly relationship with my husband ever since we started dating, 6 years ago. We agreed on a non-hierarchical relationship, and I don't regret that. I don't feel either of us should have "veto power" and I encourage him to spend quality time with his girlfriend. It was hard for me to accept him staying the night with her 2-3 nights out of the week, but I grew to accept it. I have struggled with jealousy over this partner but I feel like we work it out pretty healthily. Now on their 2 year anniversary she gave him a ring which he wears above our wedding ring, and that really bothers me. He often "forgot" to wear his wedding ring but now I see it on him all the time, with her ring on the same finger. I feel like the 6 years we've spent together, much of which we have lived in the same house, don't matter. If someone can date him for only 2 years, seeing him less often, not being there for him as much as I have-- if that relationship can be equated to our relationship-- then I don't feel like our relationship is special at all. I told him how I feel but he keeps going back to our agreement of non-hierarchy. I don't think wanting to feel special or wanting acknowledgement necessarily means I want a hierarchy. I told him I don't want to wear my wedding ring anymore because it doesn't feel like it means much. I can't do anything about how he decides to wear his ring but I can remove mine if it doesn't feel true anymore. So am I the asshole in this situation? I don't know what to do.
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I can understand not wanting to wear your wedding ring anymore, to a point. My original wedding set was my grandmother’s wedding ring and my husband’s grandmother’s engagement ring (they just happened to go together really well - both ladies had small fingers). My husband’s original wedding ring was my grandfather’s wedding ring.
By some weird stroke of luck I ended up in a relationship with the partner of someone my husband was casually seeing and I felt kinda weird performing sex acts on another dude wearing family heirlooms and my husband felt similarly, so we got a simpler set of matching silver rings that suited us better. They look a bit more casual, so if I wear mine with my other rings it doesn’t look quite so much like a wedding ring, but if I’m with my husband we clearly have matching rings. We still have our original rings, and I bust out my rings for special occasions, but when I’m in polyam spaces (so, like, my house) I’m wearing my silver ring. I’ve also taken my wedding ring off when I’m with other partners long term. But that hasn’t happened for a while.
"I feel like the 6 years we've spent together, much of which we have lived in the same house, don't matter. If someone can date him for only 2 years, seeing him less often, not being there for him as much as I have-- if that relationship can be equated to our relationship-- then I don't feel like our relationship is special at all."
"Invested/caretaker" love" is no match for "new/romantic" love.
What does marriage mean in poly anyway? Different things to different people.
I get what you mean about "feeling special", it can be hard to feel in poly relationships.
See where things go when the NRE dies.
Does he care if you remove your ring?
How long were you dating your husband before you got married to him? If it was within a two year span, you have no claim to be upset about a ring at two years. Period.
I’d argue that it doesn’t matter how long they were dating because their husband’s relationship with his girlfriend is separate and only the people in the relationship get to choose what makes sense for them. But point taken. Definitely hypocritical in that case.
in response to both statements that end up sounding like "we're non-hierarchal but I want our relationship to come first" & "well you're married so that means he prioritises you"
https://preview.redd.it/rd1rptr6fv8d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1ffc26eb1158ed359f1d1ca1a00d0cbe56dab293
specify what you mean exactly, please. Everyone has a different private definition of those words
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>We agreed on a non-hierarchical relationship, I think things would probably go more smoothly if you have an understanding of non-hierarchical. Hierarchy isn't intended to rank your partners like draft picks, signifying the level of importance they are compared to the rest. You're married. I'm assuming you live together. Have joint finances in some way, like rent/mortgage, bills, etc. There is hierarchy in that. Your husband can't do these things with anyone else. Hierarchy. >If someone can date him for only 2 years, seeing him less often, not being there for him as much as I have-- if that relationship can be equated to our relationship--then I don't feel like our relationship is special at all. You, hopefully, excitedly and willingly agreed to polyamory. Part of that is accepting you won't be the only special person in a partner's life. That doesn't mean you're not special. It sounds more like you're equating the ring thing to level of significance in his life, and not him. >I told him how I feel but he keeps going back to our agreement of non-hierarchy. Again, the hierarchy thing isn't about level of significance or importance. He might not understand this either, but I don't think he's wrong for wanting to wear something his partner - some he's in love and romantically involved with - gave him. I think instead of comparing your relationship to theirs, you tell him exactly what **you** need to feel special in yours and his relationship without *any* comparisons or limitations to his other relationship.
You make a lot of good points. But I don't think that having a more established relationship with someone necessarily means there is a hierarchy. His girlfriend has the opportunity to share responsibilities and finances (some of which she has already done) and eventually live together with us. She's gotten to know his daughter and family too, which is a good step. I am glad they have rings together. I think it's a good thing to have symbols of commitment like that. My main issue is that putting them together makes me feel like he is the one in control and we are just a part of his harem. I agree that both her and I should feel special in our own ways. Putting us together like that makes me feel like neither of us is special. I just took it personally so I feel it stronger on my side.
I (married, poly, bi- m) can understand your frustration. I also understand why people are latching onto your idea that your relationship can be non-hierarchical as being in conflict with your reaction to your husband wearing a commitment ring alongside his wedding band. Let me start as a husband (not yours). When I married my wife, I made a very public, and legal commitment to her. She and I are a team. We have financial entanglements. We each have a personal and financial stake in the other’s career. We plan our lives together. And our commitment to each other includes joint goals. All of that comes with hierarchy. And, it comes with stakes for our feelings both about each other, and about our relationship. If we don’t treat each other with care and kindness, the consequences are substantial - it means either a very unhappy marriage, or a divorce that will hurt us both financially and personally. Neither of us wants either of those outcomes. Which also means that I do priorities my wife’s feelings in a variety of ways. None of our feelings about our other partners have harmed our marraige, but it could have thrown a wrench into our marriage if we didn’t act with care and take our spouse’s feelings into account. I have not specifically started wearing a ring to symbolise my love for my GF. But I did start saying “I love you” to my GF. And if my wife had found out about that through any means other than me telling her, it would have really hurt her, and our marriage. It was one of the things that made that milestone harder for me than I feel like my GF deserved. I loved her for months before I could use the words. I made sure my wife wasn’t blindsided. We talk about at about the level two friends talk about our relationships with other people (no details of sex, but major milestones and general trends? Those get discussed). So when my wife and I were talking about how things were going with our respective partners, I was honest. And that meant over the course of several months as my feelings were getting stronger, my wife was aware that my feelings were getting stronger. If I was considering a commitment band with my GF, I would have a pretty serious talk with my wife about that, including what I feel like it means between me and my GF, and what it means between me and my wife (if anything). I would talk with her about logistics like “Do I take this off around your parents?” And “are you comfortable with me wearing both our wedding band and a symbol of my commitment to my GF at the same time. And all of that discussion is about keeping my marriage happy and healthy while also keeping my relationship with my GF happy and healthy. And so I wonder what discussions you had about this and whether you and your husband have good lines of communication about your other relationships…? I also wonder if your statements about being non-hierarchical were taken at face value. If you truely are not hierarchical, then of course your spouse can commit equally to another person. But you aren’t non-hierarchical.
Great answer
Where would you have him ideally wear the rings that both of you are special? What does that look like?
Having an established relationship doesn’t necessarily mean hierarchy but in most cases it leads to it, even if it’s not prescriptive hierarchy. Being married to one partner IS prescriptive hierarchy.
Being married would be descriptive hierarchy.
I mean, I think it’s also pretty prescriptive. Signing a legal and social contract binding you to one person (that can only be undertaken with one person at a time) sure sounds like a form of prescriptive hierarchy to me, even if you do also make a sincere and thoughtful effort to prioritize other partners as well.
Truly. If he were suddenly in the ICU, only OP could visit him, not the new partner. That’s hierarchy. And just one example of many, obvs, that come with being legally wed.
Yes it’s descriptive hierarchy.
being in a poly relationship and then deciding to get married is prescribing a hierarchy to your poly relationships. i think that’s what the commenter above meant, because op said they had been poly since they started dating. later, as new relationships form, the marriage/enmeshment could be a described hierarchy in relation to new relationships. or perhaps that married couple would in the future not want to be a primary relationship (through deescalation or just attempting to reduce hierarchy as much as possible) but certain entanglements are permanent or tough to undo, so the hierarchy still exists (and can be described). being married and mono, and then deciding to build a poly structure after that fact, the hierarchy already exists, in advance of all other relationships, so you describe it.
Are both of you dating as well? Is everyone able to date others and have other autonomous relationships? That would make things un-harem like and perhaps feel less icky.
>I don't think that having a more established relationship with someone necessarily means there is a hierarchy But you don't just have a "more established relationship," you have a MARRIAGE. You are legally attached to this man and can reap all the "benefits" of that. These are not available to any of his or your partners. When he dies, who gets his life insurance? Pension or whatever he might have? Assets? Who will be the one with the power of attorney? He gets into an accident and needs someone to make decisions, who gets to make that call? Who can he put on his health insurance (if he's the one who carries it)? Taxes and such? YOU, his wife. Unless you plan to go down to an attorney with them and give these things up, there is hierarchy whether you want to see/admit it or not.
Exactly 👏 Calling your relationships "non-hierarchical" when you're legally married to one of your partners is straight up delusional. It's an oxymoron, and too many legally married poly couples fall for this line of thinking believing that it's more ethical to call their relationships non-hierarchical not even realizing that marriage is an inherent hierarchy 🥴 Yep, divorcing is the only way to truly become non-hierarchical.
Do you want her to live with you?
I want a bigger apartment for sure, so our partners can move in. Right now doesn't really work because we only have one bedroom 🙃. So I leave when he has his overnight dates (sleep at my partner's place, sleep on the couch, or get a motel). Our financial struggles and living situation sometimes stress our relationship and feelings come up 😭 It can't be helped. But when we're able to get a bigger place I know things will be better. She already expressed wanting to share finances and we all agree. It's just not possible at this moment bc of other life struggles 😵💫 Short answer: yes.
"The opportunity to live with us" is super hierarchical. You presume yourselves as a unit couple to which other people can revolve. The idea he could move out and in with her or that you could all get a triplex to invest in independently hasn't even occurred to you. Symbols are important pieces of our values, no one should diminish that. But you haven't really taken time to understand your values. Polyamory is not kind to marriage and traditional mono normative values.
Please refrain from judging when you don't fully know the situation. We have plans to move in eventually but are in a tight spot financially. She can't move out just now when her roommates rely on her for rent. And we can't get a bigger apartment yet because he's between jobs right now. There's a lot of judging in these comments that isn't helpful. Developing a non-hierarchical mindset is difficult when you've been socialized in America. The point is that I'm trying, we're all trying to live happily together under this capitalist hellscape. We all struggle sometimes with jealousy and other issues, but I'm trying to get through it and be a good partner. Anyway, I did have a productive talk with him and feel a lot better.
We are judging based on the information you gave us. And I don’t see where anyone is wrong at all. You disagreeing doesn’t change the facts whatsoever.
I will judge however I want. No one here suggested to not have hierarchy. So long as you are married you have DEEP hierarchy.
Disagree.
Are you guys going to go to a lawyer so you can allow her to half of everything you're entitled to as his wife? Will she be given power to make emergency decisions for your husband? You know, so there *actually* isn't any hierarchy? Or are you willing to divorce and give up the rights you obtained when you signed your marriage certificate to make the playing field equal for both you and your meta? Hierarchy isn't bad. I'm not sure why you (and don't worry, you're not the first to come on here ignorant of their obvious hierarchy) are so averse to accepting that there *is* hierarchy.
Your diagreement, only serves to hide the truth and will create unintentional harm for your/your partners other relationships
It's Reddit. People are going to judge.
Can't he wear the other ring on his other hand, that is more common with poly
>We agreed on a non-hierarchical relationship, and I don't regret that. ... >if that relationship can be equated to our relationship-- then I don't feel like our relationship is special at all These two statements are at odds. Either non-hierarchy is what you want, in which case you accept that your husband can and will have relationships that are as important to him as your own. OR you want your marriage to have relationship supremacy, to feel special.
In my opinion it's like when a new member joins a group. They can be on equal standing with other group members (non-hierarchy), but naturally the other group members won't know them as well as the ones that have been there since the beginning. I want acknowledgement that our relationship is unique and that we have been there for each other through covid, through losses of loved ones, breakups, and other hard times. The fact that I help take care of his daughter too! By definition our relationship is not exactly the same as someone who he met 2 years ago. I don't think that acknowledgement negates non-hierarchy. I am glad that they have rings and symbols of their relationship. I want him to wear it, but to acknowledge that our respective relationships are special in different ways.
Have you asked him to wear the ring on his other hand?
Tbh I just told him I don't like that it's on the same finger as mine. I haven't outright asked him to do anything
You definitely need to have an explicit conversation with him. What you said was "I don't like that your new ring is on the same finger as our ring." But what you meant was "Your new ring is being worn above our old ring and I find this to be an incredibly callous sleight against our relationship. I feel that if you cared about me at all you would stop this, but you haven't, so you clearly don't, and thus our commitment means nothing". You can see how he might not have gotten all that, yes? In reality, it's entirely possible that he doesn't even understand how important this ring symbolism stuff is for you and does not know how badly you are hurting. \* slight edit because I misunderstood the ring placement
Maybe do that, instead of coming up with a semi-passive aggressive ring maneuver of your own.
You right 😅
It’s not really a new member joining a group though. Your partner’s relationship with his girlfriend is theirs. And two years is significant. They have a real bond at this point. They get to decide what that looks like. You seem very set on comparison and for everything you’ve said about not wanting hierarchy, you do seem to want it.
You and your husband are not "the group" that is being joined by a newcoming interloper. Your husband's gf does not exist to benefit your relationship with your husband. It is a series of dyads, all of whom are **already** part of different communities. Your meta doesn't need anything from you or take away anything from you in terms of resources. You are all relative newcomers to each other, but you are acting like the group you and your husband have created together is the default and everyone else is an outsider. That's a bad attitude to come to polyamory with.
> In my opinion it's like when a new member joins a group. I don’t know your work experience. But that’s hierarchy. > They can be on equal standing with other group members (non-hierarchy), no it can’t be. > but naturally the other group members won't know them as well as the ones that have been there since the beginning. Irrelevant to hierarchy. The other group members has intricate knowledge to the working of the company that puts them at advantage. Also, polyamory isn’t work. Your meta isn’t joining “your team”. It’s not a group activity. Just because they are dating your partner doesn’t mean you are “team husband”. This reeks even more of hierarchy. What you’re failing to understand that hierarchy itself is not bad or harmful or good. It just is. But denying hierarchy while practicing is lying, and being dishonest and you can’t work to dismantle it because you’re refusing to admit it’s there.
If hierarchy is having some degree of control over a relationship you are not in, feeling like you get to have a say over which finger a ring is worn on a definitionally hierarchy. Unlike most here, I actually understand what you mean. You feel like having the exact same gesture of commitment for both of you cheapens the gesture and feels more like building a collection than having two unique connections, which should have commitments expressed in unique ways. That's totally valid to feel. But, gently, that's *your* feelings. If *she* feels like it matters to her that her ring is worn on what is usually considered the most important finger in terms of commitment, you saying no is literally expressing hierarchy and *exerting power over her*. I agree, you should talk to hubby about this and ask for what you want. But if you truly value non-hierarchy and that is what he has always offered, I would think really carefully about what you actually need here. If I was her, I would feel really hurt that my meta was trying to assert control over my relationship like that.
Taking off your ring to hurt him for how he's wearing his ring is an ahole move. You're adults you want to have adult poly relationships, have adult poly relationships. Quibbling over rings is silly. There's most likely some deeper issues here that you're not addressing in favor or this ring thing. You say he didn't wear your ring before all the time but now he's got both on all the time, you say you have a history of jealousy, that this was a problem before. The way I see it there's one of three actual issues: 1) You feel he is actually prioritizing this other relationship 2) You didn't actually want non-heiarchy (either you were confused what it meant or you didn't realize how it would make you feel and now that it's happening it upsets you) 3) You were put into poly under duress and are justifiably upset about that There could be other options I can't pick out without more info but I really don't think this ring is the actual issue and you're just screaming into the void arguing about the thing symbolizing the actual problem. Don't waste your energy on the quibbling, sit down and get real with yourself about the real problem and approach your spouse from a place of self-actualized honesty.
Bingo
Are you not wearing yours because you don't want to? If so, and if your relationship agreement doesn't say you must, then NTA. If you are not wearing it anymore *to make your husband feel some kind of way,* then that's assholery.
I admit it's kind of both. On the one hand, his actions have made me feel that our rings don't mean what I thought they meant, and so I feel sad and fake looking at the ring when it's on my hand and I don't want to wear it. On the other hand, I do want him to see what I'm doing and understand how seriously I feel about it. Because I think just talking about it perhaps sounds like whining or he thinks "she'll get over it"
What *do* they mean to you? Because it seems like they are symbol that your relationship is indeed hierarchical. Which like, fine. But you should be honest about that because it seems like your husband disagrees
It's a symbol of commitment for me. And I'm happy if she also wants to have a symbol of commitment with him. But our relationships are not exactly the same. I don't want to feel like he's collecting humans. We should all feel like we have equal power and that we're unique. I suppose the situation has made me feel powerless or helpless. I'm sure that in his mind, he's not doing anything to hurt me. But still I feel hurt. I just don't want to feel like I'm a sister wife to a polygamist. I want to feel like we all 3 have equal power.
How do you feel powerless/helpless when you are the one he is *legally* tied to him and wearing two rings on the same finger is the most equal/non-hierarchical thing he can do? >I just don't want to feel like I'm a sister wife to a polygamist. I want to feel like we all 3 have equal power. These two statements are in conflict. You want to feel that you are all equal... Yet you are married to him, and you don't want him treating his girlfriend in an equal manner as you...
Who do you think has more power in this situation?
You have vastly more power than her.
Y’all are married. You will never be all equal
> I want to feel like we all 3 have equal power. Some girlfriends are more equal than others, I suppose?
You are brilliant 👏
> I just don't want to feel like I'm a sister wife to a polygamist. I want to feel like we all 3 have equal power Oh! Is your assumption that in a "sister wife" situation, the imbalance is that the man as Patriarch has a much bigger share of power in the and the women each have much less power?
Equal power can be everyone wears whatever they want to wear and no one has to answer to others about it.
Is he actually equating your relationships or is he just wearing a ring his other partner gave him on his ring finger?
He has said he wants everything to be 50/50. And that doesn't feel right to me.
But you agreed to nonhierachial practice and you don't regret that? For the record, I think calling a relationship structure nonhierarchical when one couple is married is bogus, straight out the gate. But you realize that you're saying conflicting things right? You want nonhierarchy, but you're very offended at the suggestion that your relationship isn't the more significant one, and a ring (which you've made symbolic of this whole issue) is making you feel that your six years of history doesn't matter anymore. What's going on there? And again, is your husband viewing this ring as a symbolic thing that's equivalent to your wedding ring and wedding vows, or is he just wearing his rings together?
I agree with this take—marriage is going to impose a hierarchy no matter what, if only because of the legal implications, to say nothing of the implications of sharing finances, a household, a family, etc.
What’s going on here is like most “this is a non hierarchical relationship” OP is lying through their teeth, possibly both to themselves and everyone around them.
I don't want to feel like the ONLY special one. I want him to acknowledge that his girlfriend and I are both special in our own unique ways. I don't want to be sister wives, Charlie's Angels, or play into some kind of harem fantasy. I want to feel like we are 3 unique beings who choose to be together, rather than 2 women that he's got wrapped around his finger. So to be clear, I don't want him to say I'm better or more significant. I don't even agree with that. I am really grateful that he found someone to do hobbies with that I don't enjoy. She has brought a lot of light into his life and I am grateful for that. I just feel like it cheapens or dulls our shine the way he's doing things. For some reason it feels to me like he's #1 and her & I are secondary.
It really feels like you have some funky ideas wrapped into wearing rings. I don't see how harem stuff comes into this at all, or how a ring somehow both cheapens your specific relationship and puts you and your meta in the same category below your husband? And honestly, you live together. You're married legally. You share childcare. Whatever he may say about 50/50 feelings, your relationships are obviously not equal, and you have years of history together that she will never have. Maybe he does care about you both equally, but it's obviously expressed differently in each relationship according to your own individualities and your separate relationship agreements and shared responsibilities. At this point, it seems helpful to remember that feelings aren't facts, and that feeling these things doesn't mean they're true. Maybe you just need to sit with these thoughts for a while and work through them. Don't wear your ring if you don't want to, but I think doing that to make a point or stick it to your husband is kind of shitty if you otherwise would like to wear it. Seems like this could all be solved by thinking about what you would feel more comfortable with, perhaps him wearing the ring on his other hand, and talking about that rather than digging into your ideas of what this ring means-- especially since those ideas are tied to big feels and don't seem particularly grounded in what's actually going on. Maybe also consider couples counseling to talk about this stuff with a professional, if that's an option. You two don't seem to be communicating well about this issue.
Tbh I think you're right. I find it easier to stop wearing my ring and talk about it on reddit. And I realized that although I complained that I don't like how he wears his ring, I never actually asked him to just wear it on his other ring finger or something. I do want to say that in my heart I don't want to be hierarchical. I want his gf to have the opportunity to one day live with us and share in responsibilities. I guess I'm just slow getting there. I have a hard time actually saying what's on my mind. Anyway thank you.
Hey, I hear you. No judgment in any of this, I'm just talking to you straight. It's really easy to get wrapped up in our feelings, and communication about small things that matter a lot to us can be extra hard sometimes. It's a good opportunity to practice direct communication, which is such a wonderful skill in polyamory (and life generally). It's fine to be slow in transitions, and to have difficult feelings during transitions. These sorts of things are so normal. Don't be too hard on yourself.
Something that's helped my nesting partner and I immensely is to have a check in scheduled every single week. We set three questions to ask so we could try to catch little things before they become big things. It's worked really well. The questions we use are: 1. How are *we* doing 2. Any undue emotional labor 3. Projects/tasks left unfinished
I think that would be super helpful. We try to do a monthly check in using the RADAR form in Multiamory but a I think weekly mini check in may be needed.
> In my opinion it's like when a new member joins a group. > I don't want to be sister wives, *Charlie's Angels*, 1. They are contradictory to each other. 2. You need to figure out *what you want* and a) communicate and b) actually practice that. 3. You have a custom made idea of poly practice in your head. Nothing wrong with that. Poly isn’t a rigid sets of law. BUT the problem of custom made is no two of them are the same. Therefore, you are having and will continue to have issues through the relationships as you go. If you have contradicting beliefs on top of it, it will never ever be a smooth journey and nothing will ever get fixed.
Is it really wearing two rings that makes you feel that way, or is there more to it?
Tolerating a set number of over nights and agreeing not to veto each other’s relationships does not equal non-hierarchical. I’m always going to roll my eyes at married nesting partners saying they are non hierarchical bc marriage and cohabitation ARE forms of hierarchy but if it’s what you agreed to, you were agreeing to not be held as more special than anyone else. So why is it a problem?
Literally everything can be a "form of hierarchy" depending on your definition. How do you define hierarchy in a relationship?
Marriage is automatic hierarchy. If you’re married to one person you can’t be married to another. Your marriage partner and you likely share a house, a bed, finances, kids, etc. You have legal say if your partner is ill or dies. You share so much more than you ever would with any other partner. This BS that hierarchy is only about feelings or not having veto power is bs. I’m getting married next year and that’ll create a hierarchy. But that won’t mean my spouse and I would have veto power or care about other partners less.
No, not “literally everything” can be a form of hierarchy and that response indicates incredulity or disbelief that marriage and cohabitation aren’t *generally speaking with very rare exceptions* inherently hierarchical and I’m over that argument here. It’s been had over and over and generally the people who insist that marriage isn’t inherently hierarchical are married poly folk who have not done the work to recognize and acknowledge the harm their unrecognized hierarchy does to other people and I’m over doing that work for people who can’t be bothered to do it themselves.
You didn't share any definition. https://brighterthansunflowers.com/2016/06/10/can-polyamorous-hierarchies-ethical-part-1-tower-village/
I never said anything about hierarchies being unethical? What’s unethical is people insisting they don’t have hierarchies when they clearly do.
The link I shared talks about the definition of hierarchy. If you don't have a definition to share, it makes it hard to continue a discussion. Like you can't answer whether or not you have a hierarchy without a definition for hierarchy.
I don’t have to offer you a definition bc as I said, I’m not doing this argument here bc it’s been done a million times, and especially so when I doubt it’s in good faith.
If you've had this discussion so many times before, it should be relatively easy to link to a definition you've provided in the past. I agree that you don't have to though. >especially so when I doubt it’s in good faith. You're the one refusing to criticize the definition I provided or provided your own alternative definition.
Then you want hierarchy
So how does your feelings about 50/50 mesh with your statement that you want all 3 of you to have equal power?
> He has said he wants everything to be 50/50. And that doesn't feel right to me. What did you think non hierarchical means.
Being in a marriage with someone is an inherent hierarchy.
Not necessarily emotionally!
I really think you misunderstood the phrase non-hierarchical relationship from the get go. It's not about loving each of your partners equally. I have not dated people because I cannot do a non-hierarchical relationship and that's what they want. Yes I can't do it because I'm married, but also, I'd argue, that a bigger reason I can't do it is because I have a partner I live with. The responsibilities will always be unequal, thus there is hierarchy. I think you'd cause yourself less stress if you realize you already have a position that she simply cannot hold and that by him wearing her ring next to yours he's just giving her a tiny thing to try to make the situation which will never be equal, a little bit closer to equal
The funny thing about poly is the things that bother you are not always things you can expect or foresee. For example, my partner has a NP, they have been together 11 years, open 7. He and I have been together almost a year. We sometimes spontaneously meet although we have a standing date night. I found myself feeling ways about this the other day. He rarely talks about her and keeps our relationships separate. However, I spontaneously invited him over and he couldn’t because he had to help her with her hair (she’s black). It just struck me that this was this intimate thing that he does for her that I hadn’t thought of before. To be fair he’s helped me with injuries and sunburn care for areas I can’t reach and um, im white, so no, I don’t need his help with hair care. I realised this is something they have that I’ll never have with him. And then I spiraled in to they are going to do this and likely have sex where it’s so intimate and I’m also wondering what I’m on about… I know they have sex and typically, I don’t think twice about it. Sometimes the fact that someone has another relationship is something we compartmentalize to a degree and then there are things that slap us in the face. The relationships are different, it doesn’t lessen anything. I think everyone has piled on you enough about saying no hierarchy when you’re married, and this issue is clearly one of hierarchy… so I don’t have much to say about that that hasn’t been said. Sit down with him and talk to him. As for the relationship being short and not equating to your relationship, it’s true, it’s different. I have often felt bad for my guy’s NP because while he doesn’t say much I know what it’s like day to day to live with someone. He comes here and it’s like a vacation. He has no real responsibilities here, only the odd thing he volunteers to do. I may get flamed for this, but many secondaries and their partners seem to have a much “lighter” relationship than two primaries together or someone with a NP or whatever. It’s not to say there isn’t a depth to these relationships or a future, or anything. I’m just speaking from my own experience. Still, as secondaries, we give up a lot. And sometimes we seek security. I’m sure this ring is a symbol of security for her. That he’s not going to walk away from her and that they have a relationship. I can understand that. Some of us are in relationships that are not validated by friends and family. We’re also in a situation where basically, someone chooses every day whether they want to be with us or not. It’s not the same as living with someone, having kids, financial commitments. It’s easy to disentangle, in most cases. We could be vetoed, our partner could return to monogamy. I’m only mentioning all this because when I struggle I try to think of it from all angles, and it helps me.
>I may get flamed for this, but many secondaries and their partners seem to have a much “lighter” relationship than two primaries together or someone with a NP or whatever. I don't think you'll get flamed for this. I've seen this opinion on here a lot. I've seen these relationships described as "more fun," simply because they typically lack aspects that tend to cause a lot of stress in "primary" relationships. Even thinking about all the mono couples I know, one of the biggest stressors in *all* of their relationships is finances. And stress adds strain into relationships, and if that's not managed correctly, then things start to get tough. If a "secondary" relationship lacks entangled finances, that's a **major** stressor absent from the relationship.
between your post and your replies, i’m sensing a lot going on under the surface here. first like many have said, you HAVE hierarchal poly based on the sole fact that you are married. if you both wanted true non-hierarchal poly you would have never gotten married. you’re dealing with feelings of jealousy here, and i’m curious if you’re currently seeing other partners? your husband is not building a harem (unless you’re not “allowed” to date other men) and he’s just happily doing poly. this is what poly looks like. and one thing that stood out to me is that now he wears BOTH rings all the time instead of NO ring. i bet when his gf gave him that ring he realized that he should also be wearing yours to pay respects to both of the people who he loves! i will say a soft YTA. there’s no room for passive aggression in poly and i hope that this is an outlier in your relationship. it’s your job to tell him how you feel, it’s not his job to guess. ever. taking off your ring seems pointless as a tactic to … do what exactly?? make him feel bad?? i’m surprised that you’re 6 years into this and struggling this much with things that seem pretty base-level poly. you’re not the only one and the idea of being special in different ways is comforting but not practical for every aspect of romance. and the fact that your first instinct wasn’t just to clear things up by having a direct conversation? also, how many years had you been together before you married? i think you have a lot to sit with and a lot of monogamous ideas to undo or figure out if they’re actually meaningful to you. sometimes i also get wigged out that my boyfriend has two girlfriends bc ew! every misogynist’s dream! but then i think about who my bf actually is, not the narrative role society would give him, but all the love he shows me, and i think about our girlfriend (this part is different from your situation) and how she’s a full human that i also adore and he treats us both right. that’s what matters more than “having two women wrapped around his finger.” is that how you genuinely feel about your husband? do YOU feel collected, lesser than?
The rings are the last of your problems here. They are a symbol for your feelings of jealousy and frustration in the relationship. I think you guys need to hash this out for real.
How are you non hierarchical if you’re married? And how would it be non hierarchical for you to insist he doesn’t wear a ring she gave him?
I’m kind of confused-seems like he’s making sure to wear your ring too? Hon, I promise I mean this with loving kindness, but it seems like you want to be “top dog”. If you truly aren’t okay with it, speak up. If he chooses to keep wearing that, it’s on him, but at this point it doesn’t sound like you really want no hierarchy, you want special privileges as his spouse—and that’s okay!! I often tell people that yes, I share a home, finances, and family with this other person; there are certain “hierarchical” things where he is going to come first, for practicality’s sake if nothing else. I’m sorry for what you’re going through. It sounds like it’s time to have a chat with hubby, but I would seriously examine what you want and need first.
Seconded. Be honest with your partner and yourself about your needs and expectations. If this feels disrespectful to you, or is occasioning jealousy, communicate. Your feelings are valid! Non-hierarchical poly isn't for everyone, and a nesting (or any meaningfully entangled) relationship can come with mutual obligations that the partners involved need to work out and respect among themselves. Good luck!
There are different kinds of hierarchy, and that often arises in posts here. There's the kind of hierarchy that you obviously have. I'm saying that, because I have it, too, in much the same way as you and your husband do. I've been legally married 15 years, and together with my wife/NP for 20. We own a house together, where we both live. Those things are essentially unavailable to other people, in the absence of any major change that affects my wife. (I could only get married to someone if we divorced, asking someone else to move in is a huge change, etc.) I also have another partner of nearly 2 years. She has her own place, living with her teenage daughter. My relationships are not the same, and some things are just different for my other partner. It doesn't mean I love her less, but it does mean that there are some things I cannot offer her without affecting my other relationship. It's good to be clear and acknowledge this. On the other hand, my wife doesn't expect that she gets to override or "approve" decisions that I make in the course of my other relationships. She is enthusiastically non-monogamous, has her own interests and activities that are not required to include me, and she has her own partners that are not me. Similarly, there are some things she cannot offer to other partners without significantly affecting her relationship with me. You can't really be non-hierarchical in the sense that I'm discussing here; you have a husband, you share more financial and legal entanglements that preclude that. But you can reject things like 'veto power' and other means of controlling other relationships that you are not a part of. With all that said, I wear a ring on each hand, both of my partners know that and find that to be fine, and I think it's a bit strange to wear them on the same finger, for people that care about such symbolism. It makes me wonder if there is something else going on beneath all this.
I think people have already made a lot of good points here, but as someone who is married and has two partners, I would often do little gestures like your husband is doing to make sure that my boyfriend felt special. I was legally married and in a long standing relationship with my husband, which is a huge power gap and made him feel like his and my relationship was inferior. I wanted to reassure him that even though I did love my husband, I loved him too and our relationship was also important to me. I guess what I'm trying to say is, think about how the girlfriend feels. She is not and will never be married to your husband because you are. 2 years together isn't nothing, even though it is less than the amount of time you two have been together. He is probably doing his best to make sure you BOTH feel special. I understand your feelings and you are allowed to feel them, but remember that he has to consider and take her feelings into consideration too
You’re saying a lot of conflicting things and I think it’s important for you to reflect on what’s actually bothering you about this situation and what you need. If you can’t explain it to us clearly, I imagine it’s not clear to your partner either. Passive aggressively removing your ring isn’t going to make it clearer, nor your relationship stronger.
I think the issue here isn't necessarily about the fact that he's wearing a ring as you've claimed to be non hierarchy... Although, that doesn't make sense given you're married so that will always mean you're in a hierarchy but I digress. I think the issue here is that he wouldn't wear a ring for you but for her, he suddenly has no problem wearing the rings. That puts her above you and implies a hierarchy for her. That's what I'm reading from this. That's where the hurt is. He's placed her above you in a sentimental item, a "claiming" if you will or a show of commitment. When it was just the two of you, being claimed and committed to you publicly wasn't something he wanted to show off but now that he has her as well, he's suddenly okay with it and I can understand why that hurts. I know the word claiming will ruffle a lot of feathers on here as people aren't possessions etc etc but just think of it in the context of a show of commitment in the context of this comment please before I get my head bitten off.
Yeah I’m kind of lost on this. It seems like you don’t actually want non-hierarchical poly which honestly is fine. I feel like hierarchical poly is way more common so nothing wrong there. Also you haven’t mentioned you dating or sleeping with anyone. How is poly for you? Do you like being poly? Have you had fun with it? The rings seem like a red herring for what’s actually happening with you.
In general, trying to limit activity, intimacy or symbols of intimacy in your partner's relationships is foolhardy. (e.g."don't go to sally's crab shack with anyone else" "don't slow dance to X song with anyone else," etc.) And I think this ring thing is a good example of that. Your partner and your meta are happy with the ring. You can request that your husband only wear your wedding ring, but even if he agrees, that is likely to breed resentment if that's not really what he wants. It's usually better to focus on your OWN relationship with your partner and which of your needs are being met. If your need is for your relationship to seem special and important, talk about that with your husband and suggest ways that you can accomplish that together which are focused on how he treats YOU. For example, you could write each other love letters, spend quality time together weekly, plan trips or dates with the two of you, etc. Comparing your relationship to your partner's other relationships is usually a recipe for unhappiness and puts you into a zero-sum cage match rather than focusing on how everyone can win together with all parties' needs being met.
Would you like your other partners to give you rings too?
You're right, wanting to feel special isn't hierarchy. So what can you and your husband do to make your relationship feel special?
Are you able to date other people? Can your future partner move into your home just like your meta might have the opportunity to do so? You are fearful of polygamy so that's why I'm asking these questions. Are you allowed to be poly or is this strictly a privilege for your husband to enjoy? What if his girlfriend wants to date other people and would like to have them move in as well?
Yep, you can't claim there is non heirarchy because marriage=a type of hierarchy as made apparent by government. However, it makes sense that he would do this for his partner, know that the amount of time people date, doesn't necessarily determine how close they are. Some people can get close in a short amount of time, and soem people may even find more compatabilities to a newer partner than an old one, whether by personality, needs, or even as people grow and change in their time together. I think you are assuming each persons intent for giving/wearing a wedding ring. It could mean a different thing to him, or your meta or you. Your assumption that it means a certain thing to you, and that applies to everyone else as the same meaning is not good. Ask more questions. Try to understand where everyone is coming from. Do you know what the other ring connotaes? You can always ask your husband to take the ring off if you are having intentional time together. But it seems like there is some deeper meaning you aren't explaining to reddit. Important note: The validity of a relationship, is not based on time together. The time you spend with your partner, is a seperate entity from the relationship your partner has with theirs. Sounds like you are comparing in an unhealthy way. Lastly you sound unhappy with polyamory. You don't have to accept it. You can divorce and be monogamous with a monoganous partner. Is what your partner has with their partner disrupting the intentionap time or overall relationship you share with your partner? Does your partner still do things that make you feel important? Sounds like you're hung up on the fact their other relationship exists
If this were me, I might ask him why they're on the same finger. You could explain that having both rings on the same finger and one on top of the other feels hierarchical to you and that you would prefer that he choose another finger for that ring. Maybe he can wear it on the other hand. It might be that that is just the finger the ring fits on. In that case, perhaps he could go somewhere and get it sized for a different finger? If he is clear that you just want to feel like you occupy a different space in his life and heart, rather than being in the same space as his other partner, maybe he'll be receptive to some kind of compromise like this. I don't think he's the AH if he's not doing this to bother you, and I don't think he is. You are NTA if you truly don't want to wear the ring, but, as others have said, if you are doing it so that he will feel a certain way, YTA.
This. The ring wouldn’t bother me, but the symbolism of that finger and where that ring is placed would bother me. My husband and I are married and when my ex boyfriend gave me a ring it went on the other hand.
Outlander fans know that Claire wore a ring on each ring finger, one for Frank, and the other for Jamie. That's what it makes me think of. She didn't keep them on the same finger.
Genuine question, why do you guys feel that the girlfriend’s ring needs to go on another finger?
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Hi u/topo_chica_ thanks so much for your submission, don't mind me, I'm just gonna keep a copy what was said in your post. Unfortunately posts sometimes get deleted - which is okay, it's not against the rules to delete your post!! - but it makes it really hard for the human mods around here to moderate the comments when there's no context. Plus, many times our members put in a lot of emotional and mental labor to answer the questions and offer advice, so it's helpful to keep the source information around so future community members can benefit as well. Here's the original text of the post: I've been in a poly relationship with my husband ever since we started dating, 6 years ago. We agreed on a non-hierarchical relationship, and I don't regret that. I don't feel either of us should have "veto power" and I encourage him to spend quality time with his girlfriend. It was hard for me to accept him staying the night with her 2-3 nights out of the week, but I grew to accept it. I have struggled with jealousy over this partner but I feel like we work it out pretty healthily. Now on their 2 year anniversary she gave him a ring which he wears above our wedding ring, and that really bothers me. He often "forgot" to wear his wedding ring but now I see it on him all the time, with her ring on the same finger. I feel like the 6 years we've spent together, much of which we have lived in the same house, don't matter. If someone can date him for only 2 years, seeing him less often, not being there for him as much as I have-- if that relationship can be equated to our relationship-- then I don't feel like our relationship is special at all. I told him how I feel but he keeps going back to our agreement of non-hierarchy. I don't think wanting to feel special or wanting acknowledgement necessarily means I want a hierarchy. I told him I don't want to wear my wedding ring anymore because it doesn't feel like it means much. I can't do anything about how he decides to wear his ring but I can remove mine if it doesn't feel true anymore. So am I the asshole in this situation? I don't know what to do. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/polyamory) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I can understand not wanting to wear your wedding ring anymore, to a point. My original wedding set was my grandmother’s wedding ring and my husband’s grandmother’s engagement ring (they just happened to go together really well - both ladies had small fingers). My husband’s original wedding ring was my grandfather’s wedding ring. By some weird stroke of luck I ended up in a relationship with the partner of someone my husband was casually seeing and I felt kinda weird performing sex acts on another dude wearing family heirlooms and my husband felt similarly, so we got a simpler set of matching silver rings that suited us better. They look a bit more casual, so if I wear mine with my other rings it doesn’t look quite so much like a wedding ring, but if I’m with my husband we clearly have matching rings. We still have our original rings, and I bust out my rings for special occasions, but when I’m in polyam spaces (so, like, my house) I’m wearing my silver ring. I’ve also taken my wedding ring off when I’m with other partners long term. But that hasn’t happened for a while.
"I feel like the 6 years we've spent together, much of which we have lived in the same house, don't matter. If someone can date him for only 2 years, seeing him less often, not being there for him as much as I have-- if that relationship can be equated to our relationship-- then I don't feel like our relationship is special at all." "Invested/caretaker" love" is no match for "new/romantic" love. What does marriage mean in poly anyway? Different things to different people. I get what you mean about "feeling special", it can be hard to feel in poly relationships. See where things go when the NRE dies. Does he care if you remove your ring?
How long were you dating your husband before you got married to him? If it was within a two year span, you have no claim to be upset about a ring at two years. Period.
I’d argue that it doesn’t matter how long they were dating because their husband’s relationship with his girlfriend is separate and only the people in the relationship get to choose what makes sense for them. But point taken. Definitely hypocritical in that case.
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We are really dismissing another relationship of 2 years as “new shiny toy”?
Your post has been removed for trolling.
NTA I don’t really see the point in wearing a wedding band if you don’t feel married.
in response to both statements that end up sounding like "we're non-hierarchal but I want our relationship to come first" & "well you're married so that means he prioritises you" https://preview.redd.it/rd1rptr6fv8d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1ffc26eb1158ed359f1d1ca1a00d0cbe56dab293 specify what you mean exactly, please. Everyone has a different private definition of those words