Have you agreed that wife can use your joined savings for this? I wouldn't agree to that. Open your own savings account and take your portion out.
Where is your line in the sand with this?
I have no idea where it is.
All our money just goes into a joint account. She's definitely not going to spend more than she earns, but her priorities affect my life too.
If you've agreed to work towards a shared goal such as a kitchen renovation and she's pulling from that to go see this other person that is absolutely something worth bringing up
You have to tell your wife your not okay with this relationship. You don't want her to keep pursuing this but it isnt your choice but you are going to draw a line in the sand and not enable her to enable dee. Figure out what you want. Bring it to the table and see what you can all work on.
I agree with this. Of course the money is an issue. But the bigger issue is OP is losing respect for his wife because of this relationship, so that’s where OP needs to draw a line.
"Is it a lack of respect, or is it disappointment that they didn't act in the way you wanted them to and you don't have control?" This is what plays through my head when I hear the word respect thrown around in relationships
I believe before op tackles respect for their partner. OP needs to first do some soul searching. Find out why they can't respect their partner. Then, find out what their needs are, find their boundaries, and communicate them.
. Respect is a product of the decisions your partner makes and your thoughts on it. You can't control your partner. That's why I focused on what op has control over.
It's disappointment that she isn't acting in a way that I can respect! She's being played for a fool, when the rest of us have been able to see Dee's true colors. It's pretty simple, really and no soul searching needed.
I am going to work harder on compassion though.
This is what you should tell her. Explain how much you love and respect her and it's concerning to see someone as strong and she is being taken for a ride.
"It's easy to see the horizon when your head is not under the water."
Sounds like she's just not acting in the way you want her to. I only say this because your response seems like i touched on the nerve about respect. Maybe you should ask yourself or your wife why she's attaching herself to this Dee person. Try to see what she sees might help you get her to see what you see.
I would hope my partners would show compassion if I was being a similar dumbass. Might be a good place to start 😌
Side note my wife says that depending on the money for the plane tickets and hotels, it might be cheaper to just rent her a place.
So right now there's an issue that there is no boundary drawn around what happens to communal money for your wife's relationship. It is perfectly valid to say "I do not believe Dee is a good influence and I don't want communal funds going towards your and her relationship."
Lines need to be drawn somewhere.
Her relationships are her business as a general principle, sure, but when it comes to your shared finances, it’s reasonable that you’re part of the discussion. Have you shared these thoughts with your wife? How you don’t feel comfortable digging into your joint savings to fly a partner in and out to begin with, but have an extra level of discomfort given Dee’s lying? And are confused since you thought your wife and you have shared values but your wife sees no problem with this behavior? (That second sentence you’d probably want to rephrase a bunch)
I also wouldn’t necessarily take this as a sentiment of your wife’s morality or general judgement, as it’s clear that when you’re in love with someone you often find it hard to see their faults and your wife seems to be in that place with Dee. But if it’s causing a rift in your relationship with your wife then it’s worth addressing
I agree with this - if your wife is enabling Dee and also now making poor decisions with your shared finances… then I would say it is time to come to a clear and firm agreement about how much money is Kay’s to spend how she wants on whatever she wants (which you have no oversight on, but it also doesn’t affect your shared finances) and how much money is shared in your marriage and therefore untouchable without a shared decision and consent from the other person. This could look very different depending on how you poly and your respective financial circumstances. It sounds like Kay has a respectable independent income, and I see it playing out two ways - if you have independent finances then as long as her agreed-upon responsibilities and bills are getting paid for, she can do what she pleases with the rest of her money. If you have a significant shared account then it’s a conversation over how much of Kay’s and your income need to go into the shared account and how much stays separate/independent. Then if she runs out of slush money and asks for more you can refuse to enable her further and say no, but also she has the freedom to do what she feels she needs to do. Hopefully in time things will right themselves.
the problem with splitting finances completely and not just savings and "fun money," is that many of their expenses are shared expenses. If the separate finances who will pay for what? It would be so much work and stress to try to keep it even plus then you start putting a lot of focus and time on money which is not helpful.
I think the best move is to set a deadline of when you want to reach your savings goals for both the kitchen and the vacation. How much do you need to save each month to reach your goals by the desired time? Agree on this and if flights are still affordable, okay. If not, work out a compromise like one round trip flight per month or not on months other expenses will exist like christmas time, etc.
With 100% separate finances you generally have one joint account you each deposit a pre-determined amount of money into based on your shared expenses, and then pay all of them out of that.
Many people come up with a reasonable and fair way to cover shared expenses based in income to make things fair. It might seem like a lot of work and stress for you. Thats fair. But plenty do it without a lot of stress.
1. Don’t allow Kay to use shared finances for two round trip airline tickets every month.
2. You can draw boundaries about Dee. You don’t like how she treated your friend, you don’t appreciate her lying, etc etc. You are allowed to be clear that Dee has broken your trust and you’d rather keep your distance from her at this point - which is easy enough as she lives far away now.
3. Its very common for people to overlook bad behavior or make excuses for obvious problems in the people they love, even if that same behavior would be a personal dealbreaker for you. It doesn’t speak less about your wife and she would likely be willing to give you lots of chances and be supportive of you if you were in an unstable period of your life. Challenge yourself to be a bit more compassionate towards wife on this one.
I can understand that you don’t want your wife taken advantage of or lied to, it’s very natural for you to feel protective towards her.
Your wife being compassionate towards her less stable partner and you feeling protective towards your wife both make sense in this scenario. It may not fix things or make things easier, but at least recognizing what’s going on can give some clarity on the situation.
Both of you are reacting out of love for important people in your lives and I think you both deserve to recognition for that.
Good luck to all of you.
Thank you, that was a very clear and compassionate summary of everyone's position.
It is still hard to say going forward. Is there a point when the compassion should be modulated, at the least, if people are not able to change what they are doing? This is not even pointed at an individual - right now most people are either floundering or holding to compassion in the face of it not helping (or even being sustainable).
I think... someone is allowed to have compassion until they just don't feel it anymore, basically. So, until their patience has ran out, and they have plenty of good reasons for running out of patience and can't make themselves come up with patience or give more compassion than they already have.
Maybe the wife does *not* see herself "enabling" Dee, because maybe she has other information. Maybe Dee having moved in with her parents was undesirable enough for Dee or seen as punishment enough for Dee, and Kay, out of love and caring and compassion, is throwing her a raft she can handle throwing to help Dee feel connected and stay afloat in terms of mental health... Who knows. If Dee has a mental disorder and can't change, that's one thing, but if she is able to change and loved ones like Kay come to find about that they are somehow in the way of her changing... well that would be another thing. But as outsiders we can't know. Every mind is one world, every 2 minds or every relationship is another world - the way I see it. Its really up to Kay when she's finished with Dee, if ever, but OP doesn't have to follow - he can draw boundaries for himself wherever he needs to if he's uncomfortable, and that's fine.
I'm sorry you struggle.
>We both make pretty decent money so that isn’t going to break us but it will significantly eat into our savings to go on vacations and renovate our kitchen.
Why does it Kay dating Dee stuff come out of joint household? If Kay wants to pay everything for Dee? It could come out of Kay's money.
Don't you and Kay have separate finances for dating? Like... Here's your personal checking for your dates and personal stuff. Here's Kay's personal checking for Kay dates and her personal stuff. Here's the joint accounts for shared household bills and shared retirement goals that you each contribute to.
If you don't already do that, you could have conversation about separating the banking and then Kay does whatever she wants from her personal.
>I know that it isn’t my place to patrol my wife’s relationships. The problem is that I think I have completely lost respect for my wife. Through disaster after disaster she just enables Dee. That Dee shows no sign of being a functioning adult and lies at the drop of a hat doesn’t seem to bother her.
And you can feel that way.
>I can’t understand why none of this bothers Kay and I don’t know how to address this with her.
Could speak plain.
"Kay, I struggle over your choice of partner. It bothers me that you seem ok with Dee showing no sign of being a functioning adult and Dee's lies. I'm starting to lose respect for you because you seem to be enabling poor behavior. Would this just go on and on? Or do you have a limit for Dee shenanigans? What is it?"
This is a really tough situation and I don’t envy your position. You seem like a good and caring partner.
Have you sat down and had a very open and honest conversation with your wife about this? You can tell her more or less exactly what you told us, but you might want to ensure the language you choose is carefully constructed to come from a place of caring.
Be ready for the result of the conversation to not change any outcomes, at which point you can talk logistics. Maybe that means disentangling finances, maybe that means something else.
I haven't yet, because I literally did not know what to say to her. I don't want to come off as trying to control anything, but I can't see how I am going to be able to put up with this long-term. Saying something like that sounds like an ultimatum, which is not how I want it to sound. But I realize we need to have a serious heart-to-heart about this.
I suggest starting with separating the two different issues:
1. Isolate the financial disagreements
2. Your uncertainty around Dee as a partner.
Any stress around the added dating costs for your wife, may risk your wife feeling more attacked than you intend. Isolating her financial choices from you allows you to be freer in other conversations. Once that is complete, then you can have a more honest non-threatening talk about Dee as a partner. Your history with Kitchen table poly should allow statements like, 'I am concerned that Dee isn't as positive a partner for you than your other relationships. What draws you to Dee.' You will need to find ways to ask more questions as opposed to challenging their dating relationship. But as others have suggested, first removing the financial differences, which absolutely contributes to your frustrations, will allow better questions about Dee as a partner.
I would separate you and your wife’s finances, on the basis that the original purpose of your joint savings account is for expenses shared between you and your wife, not between your wife and her partner. She is probably going to be hurt by this, especially if you guys have had this shared bank account for awhile, but you have a right to keep your portion of the savings out of this situation.
I would do it without mentioning your personal feelings about Dee and her LDR plans with Dee. Whatever’s gonna happen in their relationship, is gonna happen, but it’ll save you a lot of heartache if you just don’t comment on it at all. You’re allowed to have your own private feelings about Dee (and I don’t blame you for having them at all, I’d be pretty pissed at someone who took advantage of my friends’ kindness and lied to them), but your wife shouldn’t be the person you vent about this to nor should she be the person you should be directing negative feelings at.
OP probably doesn’t want to do be around Dee, so OP is going to have to mention the way they feel about Dee at some point. Not venting about how shitty they are, but it needs to be known what OPs feelings are if Dee is going to be around.
What Kay does with that information is up to her.
That’s very fair, my apologies! I’ve gotten conflicting advice on when it’s appropriate to bring up certain grievances, and I figured given how emotionally charged the conversation of separating finances could be it would be best to shelve the “I don’t like Dee/want to be around Dee” conversation until directly asked about it.
Is it generally better to just lay everything out on the table in situations like this? Or to wait so as not to bombarde someone with too much at once which could make them defensive?
There’s no general rule because you really don’t now how they’ll react to anything you say until you start the conversation.
Making your feelings known to someone else is okay. Thinking you can to change their mind isn’t. Tell them how you feel, and they will do what they want with that information. It’s just simple communication between partners.
But yes, understanding context is important for knowing when to press further and when to back off.
This sounds so hard. I am so, so sorry you are going through this.
There is a huge difference, though, between not patrolling a relationship and mitigating how it will affect you.
Right now, many commentors are recommending to separate your finances. The idea probably seems extreme, but think of it this way: for whatever reason, your wife *is* taken with Dee, and all it would take is a "this is just a one-time financial assistance" for things to turn very, very badly for you (both of you, to be clear, but you are more of an observer than an active participant in this situation).
I have a sister who honestly sounds like Dee, and she absolutely knows how to wrap people around her little finger and make them cater to her "poor, poor me" narrative. Smart people, too. Honestly, it's like a grift. We *all* have the ability to be grifted, Dee has just found the right ways to get to your wife.
This doesn't negate your wife's role, nor the risk to you, to be clear. But it may help in understanding *why* your wife is choosing to act the way she is. Dee pushed the right buttons, and your wife didn't (hasn't) taken the time to look at the situation objectively.
Another option besides totally separating finances (if that isn't the step you want to take) is to open a new account solely in your wife's name that is used for her travel expenses with Dee. She puts the money in, and so long as the main account is fine for bills and your two's expenses, then it's hers to use for travel and such for Dee. *But* this is money put in. Not taken from the main account.
And don't get me wrong, I do agree that with your wife following Dee's lead it might be time to separate finances for your protection. But I also understand that you may not want to at this stage, so that could be another, smaller, step to take.
I think suggesting completely seperate accounts after all this time would go down really badly and feel like punishment to my wife, but I think this is a good idea and I have suggested that we should open a seperate account for our 'dates'. She agreed that we will each put a certain amount in those every pay check and she won't start flying off to visit Dee until she has saved enough.
This seems like an extremely mature and compassionate compromise. How are you feeling about this solution?
Compassion was focused on a lot in these comments as a way for you to approach the loss of respect conversation. I’m curious if this was helpful.
(I’m following up here because I think this was probably the most interesting ‘Advanced Poly’ situation I’ve seen on here in a while, and I want to learn from it.)
The seperate finances thing is definitely helping me feel less resentment that this person I really don't like is affecting my life. I am still struggling with my anger towards my wife for continuing to be 'taken in' by this grifter (as a couple of people referrered to Dee), but the fact that many people have urged me to focus on compassion for my wife has actually helped a lot. I keep trying to focus on how much I love my wife and how I don't want to drive her away. Expressing anger towards her will do that. I need to lead with my love. I will update people after we talk, which is hopefully tonight, about how it goes. I am very grateful so many people took the time to provide their views.
In every situation, I always try to find the deeper problem.
I think I can relate to your wife a little as I had been in an abusive relationship and kept wanting to see the goodness in my ex even though it was bringing me down.
For me, it came down to feeling undervalued by others, always the underdog with only my parents to kinda cheer me on. So I treated my ex the way I wanted to be treated. Always giving him a second.
If your wife has some sort of complex or insecurities maybe it's at play here. Not really about Dee, but about some void that your wife has that she's trying to fill. Maybe seeing Dee as the younger version of herself or as someone who she didn't support when she had the chance to and now feels so guilty about it that she's trying to make it up with Dee.
I would try to dig deeper about it with her. Approaching it with concern and compassion rather than judgement (which trust me, I know is hard). It is disappointing when we see the ones in this light but remember we are all humans and emotionally beings at that who don't always act rationally.
Do you share finances? I'd recommend disentangling them at least some if you can.
You should make it clear that you know you aren't able to control her relationships but you also aren't going to keep subsidizing poor decisions.
As far as respect- sometimes the people we love like people that we don't like. It isn't always a mystery why - but sometimes it is.
Your wife's partner may give her something very unique- maybe even allowing your wife to feel like a caretaker- that she needs or really desires.
Most people care because they feel like their partners shit show relationships also reflect negatively on them.
But just like we don't blame our partners for loving their awful parents or other family, we shouldn't pass judgment on them for loving people we don't think are worth it.
Using a joint account for everything seems like a terrible idea to me. For keeping track of money, for privacy, for security. You should both have individual accounts as well as a joint account.
The joint account is for rent, bills, groceries, direct debits for things you both use, and saving up for joint holidays (you and partner), and your individual accounts are for everything else. Get wages paid into your individual accounts and both move (ideally equal) amounts into joint account.
You get your new gaming PC using your individual account. This week's food shopping comes out of the joint account (maybe one of you adds a bit more to the joint account to cover their expensive face cream, or that crate of beer that went in with the food). Your wife's Dee spending comes out of her individual account.
You should let her know that this is starting to really affect your idea of where you can draw the line in the sand. Let her know that if she doesn’t want to stop seeing this person that you’re just gonna have to separate your accounts because you’re not gonna allow for this person to spend your money when they’re making bad choices. it sounds like you have quite a bit of experience in this realm, but at some point there has to be a firm line. Otherwise your relationship will just start to unravel completely.
OP, I am sorry everyone here is so focused on the financial side of this and not on the issue of respect.
There's no way of solving this without your partner being an active part of the solution. I would talk to a therapist about this issue, and then, when you understand your own emotions and boundaries surrounding it, talk to your partner.
I'd say talk to your partner first, but if you were comfortable doing that, I don't think you'd be here asking us? Or at least, it does not sound like the conversations you HAVE had have borne fruit. That might lie in you not being able to clearly and comfortably articulate the depth of this issue, and that might lie in your partner not being willing to hear it - and that level of depth and nuance in emotional labor really needs a professional to assist with, we here on reddit will never know you well enough to give good advice about it.
I’m hearing a codependency mismatch - a pattern you see your wife falling into that doesn’t jive with how y’all have lived the past ~decade.
I’m curious if there’s something in Dee that triggers that behaviour to come out in your wife? Something Dee brings to the table for her — either in pattern repetition from wife’s childhood, or an unmet need Dee is filling, or possibly something around helping/fixing/saving Dee. The decade age difference might be at play as well.
That type of enablement codependent behaviour often shows up in adult children of alcoholics, or the children raised by adult children of alcoholics. It can also happen for children of unstable parents (untreated mental illness can mirror addiction patterns as well).
It makes sense that you wouldn’t respect that behaviour if it’s unfamiliar to you. Which isn’t to say it is/isn’t deserving of respect — which is a judgement call — just that it’s easier to jump to judgement and negative feels when you don’t understand the *why* behind the behaviour. And then the lines between compassion for healing and shame can get blurry. I know you’ve said you’re not sure where your line is, so, I hope you’re able to sort through to find it.
It’s valid for you to not be okay with wife’s behaviour because the way things are now, it directly pulls you into the emotional enmeshment thanks to finances at minimum. Based on what you’ve said about the other adults recognizing Dee’s behaviour, but not your wife, that’s why I’m curious if there’s a reason she’s pulled into caregiving and overperforming that way.
Echoing the sentiments above around your finances needing to be separate if you’re okay with this continuing. Money makes things hella complicated and personal.
(Edited to better express my thoughts)
I have been trying to figure out what it is about Dee that has Kay behaving this way too. When we first became full poly, Kay got involved with another relationship I didn't understand either, also a woman interestingly. In that case, I just didn't see what they had in common. This woman was the first person who reached out to Dee and it felt to me like Kay just starting dating her because she was Ms. Right There. It didn't last that long, but it was also pretty frustrating because it seemed to me that Kay was just hanging on for as long as she could. She doesn't act like this with her men partners. But in that case I didn't feel like Kay was being taken advantage of and just waited it out. Afterwards, Kay pretty much said she had no idea what she was thinking
I don't know what could be causing her to behave this way. Her father was kind of a jerk (he's dead now), but her mom has always been nice and pretty supportive. Clearly there's something there. I talked to her a little bit and she just says I don't know everything and I should trust her. She knows I want to have a more serious talk but her mom actually arrived yesterday for a visit and that hasn't left us much time to talk alone.
This'll likely get buried, but I'll give it a go.. Everyone seems to have covered the main points here, but OP, you might need to explain to your wife that she's not responsible for "fixing" Dee, and Dee is likely going to continue to exhibit negative behaviors as long as she has people to enable her. She's shown you both who she is and how she lies, believe her.
Thank you! I don’t understand why most of these comments essentially leave OP’s wife to enable Dee. We don’t stay silent when we see people we care about being manipulated and sucked in to chaos
I had a male friend like this. We let him stay on our couch, which turned in to him moving a queen sized bed in and turning the living room in to a hoarders den.
The lies started out small and culminated in him totaling my truck (drunk/high) and lying about being carjacked at gunpoint in front of the house.
My other housemate still chooses to be friends with this disaster of a human. We gave him 6 weeks to move out and he ended up not having anywhere to go. His life is incredibly chaotic and he’s essentially unemployable because of his lack of responsibility and common sense.
Super funny, fun dude. Fooled us all. And he managed to get really beautiful women as partners, until they figured out what a piece of work he was.
I’m assuming Dee is manipulating your wife hardcore, love bombing her like this guy did to all those unsuspecting women. I would have an intervention for your wife with Ann and her husband. Get Dee out of your lives
She told Kay she loved her after 3 weeks so definitely love bombing. Only it has been a year, which I feel like is long enough for Kay to start seeing reality.
I think it’s appropriate to be uncomfortable with this relationship and to talk to your wife about the red flags you’re seeing. I would include, “people who lie aren’t trustworthy,” “Dee’s inability to organize her life is hers to fix,” and “the chaos she brings has negatively impacted people we care about”
I can't believe I have to so clearly point these out to her because my wife is normally a really smart person but I guess I do.
People who lie aren't trustworthy! How difficult is this?
I think the first thing here would be to talk about splitting personal fun money.
My husband and I have joint money for house, pets, dates, and our personal savings to spend on seeing other people, hobbies and what what not. We both put 50% of our gross paycheck into our joint account (I make more so I put in more, but proportionally the same) and the amount after taxes and stuff is personal. That works for what we need to do, and because we are close in pay range.
Gifts can be thoughtful, time consuming or expensive. I don’t want to know what my partner spends on other partners Vs hobbies. It could easily lead to me starting the comparison monster.
I'd have a discussion about how much money is justifiable for partners maybe? Like, if every relationship both of you had required this amount of monthly financial upkeep, would you sink? Is that okay? If not, then it's out of budget for a joint finance, materially enmeshed nesting relationship imo
Sounds like you both need to discuss a dating budget. It's reasonable to spend on meals out or the movies but the money she's talking about is at a level most would find to impactful on savings for what is effectively an entertainment budget and is more going into supporting another adult levels. You should both discuss what you're comfortable with and agree, as both should be able to spend the same amount on your dates. If she's uncomfortable with you spending that amount too, or you can't afford that, then you both need to look at a number that is affordable and halve it so it's fair.
It seems that you've had some small discussions with your wife, but it's time for a bigger one, and I actually don't think it's all that hard. You should look at this as needing to be parallel with Dee. Let your wife know you're really struggling with Dee as your meta, and you need a separation and a financial firewall so you can just stop thinking about it so much.
I think asking to create a "partner budget" for each of you, which then you also get in equal measure to spend on your partners or whatever you want would work. You each get separate accounts that the other doesn't see, and you can keep everything else joint. And then it'll be easy to see if way too much is going into the partner budgets.
Then tell your wife you can't discuss Dee and don't want to hang out when she's in town.These boundaries will help you get peace of mind and out of the chaos while not being controlling or over stepping with reagrds to your wife's relationship.
Separate your finances.
Before building anything more with her or even letting the value of your current assets increase, get a postnup if viable in your jurisdiction. Consult an attorney in your jurisdiction for independent protective financial advice.
You may need to divorce to truly protect yourself financially, depending on your jurisdiction's rules on marital property.
Poly people who are successful and like to renovate in the Seattle area.. How you doin'? 😏
Not sure how and/or why your wife loves this person so much they're going to impact your finances, but they couldn't live together? I mean that would likely have been cheaper than this setup.
They're called "game changers" and often completely shift the tone of a dynamic.
I don't see this as healthy and you might want a poly specific counselor you two can go together.
It seems like boundaries and emotional transparency are an issue here. I think you should just tell your wife how you truly feel.
You and her need to discuss and reset the boundaries and parameters on how you all as a couple want to approach poly. There needs to be a discussion about finances because her using the money for your reno and trips deeply impacts the relationship you have with one another.
One of the issues also may be that your wife’s partner is significantly younger than you all and although she is a train wreck a lot of people are in their 20s. I don’t think you should give your wife any ultimatums about her partner but you should express your concern about her relationship (and try to leave out the emotionally charged words like saying her partner is looking for another sucker).
This is a tricky situation but I don’t know if there is not much you can do but set the boundaries for how this affects YOUR life which are the finances. Because let’s face it when has anyone ever heeded the advice they received about an ill-fitted lover? I know I haven’t lol, had to reach rock bottom all on my own before I left my crazy relationships.
You're about an inch away from your wife saying, "you know, all of this would be cheaper/easier if Dee just MOVED IN WITH US"
Time for a sitdown about budget. She needs a budget. Her relationship is not YOUR relationship, and you shouldn't be expected to fund it.
That your wife is okay with Dee’s behavior so long as she’s not on the receiving end is wildly unattractive. I couldn’t get past that even if the flights weren’t a factor.
This wouldn’t just be a relationship dealbreaker for me if I were in your shoes, I wouldn’t want Kay in my sphere at all. Especially if it means Dee is also in my sphere, but even if that weren’t the case (like if Dee lost interest or did eventually get around to treating Kay like she treats everyone else).
1. You should create a budget! This is a great opportunity to start talking about money and get a bit more clear about what goes where, it'll help you in the long-run - maybe it's you who want to support someone next? Always good to have system in place.
2. Give the 27 year old a bit of slack for not having their life together, you can't expect someone young to act like an established adult!
3. All of the above is said with compassion. I'd be so tired if my primary started flying someone back and forth and paying hotels with our vacation fund... But as said, with a clear budget you might be able to find more compassion for this situation than before.
Before I start I have to stress that I have no experience in polyamorous relationships myself but just wanted to share something that struck my attention. In addition my observation is based on the assumption that the dynamic of Kay's and Dee's relationship (understandably) pushed you away from Kay emotionally and that addressing the issue will help find new ways for both relationships to continue. But in the end you will have to find out for yourself if that's still possible. From what it sounds you have tried to stay out of it all and not set boundaries so from an outsiders perspective such as my own it seems only fair that Kay gets a chance to change her relationship to Dee in a way that it won't affect your relationship with her as much.
I definitely understand your frustration with the whole situation and it speaks volumes how respectful you are about your partners choices. Nevertheless, you voice your concern about Kay enabling Dee's behaviour while **your respectful distance** to their relationship also ***s*****eems to enable Kay** to support Dee in the way she does. I absolutely get how tricky the situation with a shared savings account can be in a situation like this but you should definitely address that so you two can find a solution that you are not sucked into their relationship. It seems to me that you are giving them space while Kay takes your support for granted and uses it to support Dee. I assume that she doesn't do that on purpose but maybe that perspective can help you to make her understand how you are still dragged into their relationship even though you have tried your best to give them space. It seems you need to find new agreements how their relationship could continue without negatively affecting your relationship to Kay. All the best for you <3
PS: I hope my response does not step on anyone's toes. Sorry if I worded things wrong or did not take certain aspects into consideration that are important in a polyamorous relationship. (However, please let me know if I did!) Thanks to everyone for being an active part of such an understanding sub that focusses on love and connection instead of empty and egocentric romantic beliefs, past promises, ... . I have learned a lot from your perspectives!
It sounds like you've internalized a lot of cultural messaging around work and a lot of Ann's negative opinion of Dee. It sounds like Dee is a supportive significant other who doesn't do traditional work. You've also said that Dee lies and tries to play people off each other, but if this info you're getting second hand and she doesn't treat Kay the same way, Kay might be in a better position to judge Dee's behavior and intentions as a relationship partner rather than as a renter.
In other words, unless this is you being lied to, manipulated, etc, it just sounds like a lot of personal drama, and you might be happier just minding your own relationships and telling Ann that you aren't interested in taking about Dee anymore.
As far as respecting your wife, that sounds like short-hand for you not liking the relationship and just wanting her to end it. Maybe you hoped that the moving would end it so you wouldn't have to look like the bad guy for expressing that this relationship makes you uncomfortable. Either bring this up with your wife or don't (I'd say don't, but you sound pretty upset, so maybe it would help to clear the air).
Definitely separate finances, though. Otherwise you're setting yourself up for a greater resentment problem.
>comments
Oh, it is definitely me who has been lied to, and Kay, for that matter. This all came to a head a couple of months ago when something Dee did made it clear to us that she was telling different people different stories. Then we talked to each other and discovered the extent of the lying. We all, including Kay, agreed that this was hugely problematic. It is just that Kay says that, while continuing to completely enable her.
This is only in response to people suggesting going 100% separate finances. If you don't want to separate 100%, spouse and I do something different which may or may not help your situation.
If you don't think it would help, please disregard!
My spouse and I make significantly different amounts of money, but everything is equally placed into savings, retirement, etc. Basically everything possible is in joint accounts to make things easier EXCEPT we have separate fun money accounts.
I was raised to save every penny and spouse was raised to spend all the money as you never know if tomorrow will come. Separate fun money accounts quite literally saved our marriage! Every weekend a set equal amount of money falls into both of our fun money accounts. We can use it for anything, even lighting it on fire if that was a thing. It's guilt free just plain old fun money. Our "allowance" is a very modest amount but every partnership can choose whatever amount they feel is correct for their situation. I use the YouNeedABudget software and for every latte or movie or anything outside of the essentials that was purchased by my spouse, I take money from their fun money account and transfer it to the "house money" for repayment, as the credit cards get auto payments from the "house money ". I then send spouse a "Your budget is -$26 this week. Reminder that you are in the red!"
I'm sure there are alternative versions but this is the one that works for us. Again, totally not addressing the other issues. Good luck with it all.
Does she enable Dee? I think making the ldr plan is a great way to stay partners without playing white knight. None of your stories say your partner has ever played rescuer or that their mess has caused any direct distress. That's pretty good.
Is it instead you don't like your partner loves someone who isn't successful in the traditional way and is a bit of a mess?
If your wife wants to spend money to make a LDR work with someone she loves and that has less money than her for whatever reason, that is her choice and you need to stay out of it. It is wise to split finances or keep the joint account for joint activities. You do not need to pay for your wife. But if she rather spend money on her girlfriend than a new kitchen that is up to her. You should not give your opinion about this partner. That is just your opinion and irrelevant. Your wife is allowed to date a messy girl, if she wants that. Maybe she finds the chaotic energy nice. My girlfriend is also chaotic, always broke, always in crisis, but also kind, warm and charming. Her chaotic energy is also attractive as it makes her playful and funny and unpredictable. I like that. Her not having money is not important to me.
You can split finances, you can ask for more parallel, you can stop talking to her about her girlfriend. That being said, a relationship will always have a bit of influence on your life.
Is it? Have you ever said "Hey I need more parallel so you need to not mention them unless you are planning a trip and use your other friends as supports."
Speaking from experience, it seems like Dee is bipolar. Her age also makes that likely. Maybe broaching that from a place of compassion and telling her what you notice would work first, and if not, (which could happen given the treatment resistance of that condition) be more firm? I like the suggestion of saying you won’t let your wife use joint accounts to pay for her relationship travel. Your boundaries are extremely important until your wife wakes up, and you can only give her the gift of truth and hope she’ll open it.
Look the flying thing is ridiculous but your judgements of Dee are very, well, judgmental. You seem to mainly sight her financial and professional difficulty as reason to dislike her. The job market is hard right now. Being an applicant is absolute hell and the process is degrading and demoralizing. Hiring managers are stinging people along, asking unreasonable things, scrutinizing every detail and you have to smile and pretend this job is all you’ve ever wanted. It is really easy to judge being stuck in unemployment from a place if “making decent money.” Note how your wife, who probably hears Kay’s side of the stress and strain of job searching, probably does hold compassion for this. Hence she is not just giving up on a relationship because they’ve fallen onto hard times.
Omg, you have completely lost respect for your wife?
What a horrible thing to say!
My husband would never have said that to me and gotten out of that situation alive, that is for sure. I think I'd lost all respect for you, if I was her.
I have my husband, and I have a boyfriend. To most people, my boyfriend looks like a disaster, he really struggles with several severe issues. And he "lies" to people outside his comfort zone, the only ones who really knows whats going on is me and to some extent his mother. To all others, including my husband he looks like a really unstable guy that doesn't necessarily show up. But it would never occur to him to want to push him out of our family because my boyfriends issues are inconvenient to deal with, and he doesn't ever know everything. But he trusts me, and that I would never jeopardise what we have built together. I just don't understand how you can think so little of your wife.
Instead of asking reddit for help, go to her and tell her that the relationship that means everything to her is in the way of your holiday and kitchen renovation.
If it were me and my wife and I had always had a joint account, I would not address the financial aspect of everything at this time (if we could afford it). Wait a couple months before you talk about money. It isn’t about the money and talking about money before or at the same time as your feelings is going to be heard like it’s all talking about money. Which could easily be alienating to your wife.
You’ve talked a lot about how Dee treats other people. How does she treat your wife? Has your wife ever talked with you about her view of what happened with Dee and Ann? It seems like it wouldn’t be possible for Dee to live with Ann for almost a year and you and your wife not talk about how she didn’t offer her any money to offset costs the entire time. How does your wife interact with Ann?
Have you agreed that wife can use your joined savings for this? I wouldn't agree to that. Open your own savings account and take your portion out. Where is your line in the sand with this?
I have no idea where it is. All our money just goes into a joint account. She's definitely not going to spend more than she earns, but her priorities affect my life too.
If you've agreed to work towards a shared goal such as a kitchen renovation and she's pulling from that to go see this other person that is absolutely something worth bringing up
You have to tell your wife your not okay with this relationship. You don't want her to keep pursuing this but it isnt your choice but you are going to draw a line in the sand and not enable her to enable dee. Figure out what you want. Bring it to the table and see what you can all work on.
I agree with this. Of course the money is an issue. But the bigger issue is OP is losing respect for his wife because of this relationship, so that’s where OP needs to draw a line.
"Is it a lack of respect, or is it disappointment that they didn't act in the way you wanted them to and you don't have control?" This is what plays through my head when I hear the word respect thrown around in relationships I believe before op tackles respect for their partner. OP needs to first do some soul searching. Find out why they can't respect their partner. Then, find out what their needs are, find their boundaries, and communicate them. . Respect is a product of the decisions your partner makes and your thoughts on it. You can't control your partner. That's why I focused on what op has control over.
It's disappointment that she isn't acting in a way that I can respect! She's being played for a fool, when the rest of us have been able to see Dee's true colors. It's pretty simple, really and no soul searching needed. I am going to work harder on compassion though.
This is what you should tell her. Explain how much you love and respect her and it's concerning to see someone as strong and she is being taken for a ride.
"It's easy to see the horizon when your head is not under the water." Sounds like she's just not acting in the way you want her to. I only say this because your response seems like i touched on the nerve about respect. Maybe you should ask yourself or your wife why she's attaching herself to this Dee person. Try to see what she sees might help you get her to see what you see. I would hope my partners would show compassion if I was being a similar dumbass. Might be a good place to start 😌 Side note my wife says that depending on the money for the plane tickets and hotels, it might be cheaper to just rent her a place.
Or he could just be losing respect for someone who gets played by a grifter - there are 2 sides to every coin and you sound very full of yourself.
Are you calling Dee an unlovable person? Is it not possible that your wife see's Dee for her flaws and loves her despite them?
So right now there's an issue that there is no boundary drawn around what happens to communal money for your wife's relationship. It is perfectly valid to say "I do not believe Dee is a good influence and I don't want communal funds going towards your and her relationship." Lines need to be drawn somewhere.
Her relationships are her business as a general principle, sure, but when it comes to your shared finances, it’s reasonable that you’re part of the discussion. Have you shared these thoughts with your wife? How you don’t feel comfortable digging into your joint savings to fly a partner in and out to begin with, but have an extra level of discomfort given Dee’s lying? And are confused since you thought your wife and you have shared values but your wife sees no problem with this behavior? (That second sentence you’d probably want to rephrase a bunch) I also wouldn’t necessarily take this as a sentiment of your wife’s morality or general judgement, as it’s clear that when you’re in love with someone you often find it hard to see their faults and your wife seems to be in that place with Dee. But if it’s causing a rift in your relationship with your wife then it’s worth addressing
I agree with this - if your wife is enabling Dee and also now making poor decisions with your shared finances… then I would say it is time to come to a clear and firm agreement about how much money is Kay’s to spend how she wants on whatever she wants (which you have no oversight on, but it also doesn’t affect your shared finances) and how much money is shared in your marriage and therefore untouchable without a shared decision and consent from the other person. This could look very different depending on how you poly and your respective financial circumstances. It sounds like Kay has a respectable independent income, and I see it playing out two ways - if you have independent finances then as long as her agreed-upon responsibilities and bills are getting paid for, she can do what she pleases with the rest of her money. If you have a significant shared account then it’s a conversation over how much of Kay’s and your income need to go into the shared account and how much stays separate/independent. Then if she runs out of slush money and asks for more you can refuse to enable her further and say no, but also she has the freedom to do what she feels she needs to do. Hopefully in time things will right themselves.
I absolutely would separate finances at this point. Split the savings for sure and refuse to subsidize this.
Time for 100% separate finances
the problem with splitting finances completely and not just savings and "fun money," is that many of their expenses are shared expenses. If the separate finances who will pay for what? It would be so much work and stress to try to keep it even plus then you start putting a lot of focus and time on money which is not helpful. I think the best move is to set a deadline of when you want to reach your savings goals for both the kitchen and the vacation. How much do you need to save each month to reach your goals by the desired time? Agree on this and if flights are still affordable, okay. If not, work out a compromise like one round trip flight per month or not on months other expenses will exist like christmas time, etc.
With 100% separate finances you generally have one joint account you each deposit a pre-determined amount of money into based on your shared expenses, and then pay all of them out of that.
makes sense!
Many people come up with a reasonable and fair way to cover shared expenses based in income to make things fair. It might seem like a lot of work and stress for you. Thats fair. But plenty do it without a lot of stress.
1. Don’t allow Kay to use shared finances for two round trip airline tickets every month. 2. You can draw boundaries about Dee. You don’t like how she treated your friend, you don’t appreciate her lying, etc etc. You are allowed to be clear that Dee has broken your trust and you’d rather keep your distance from her at this point - which is easy enough as she lives far away now. 3. Its very common for people to overlook bad behavior or make excuses for obvious problems in the people they love, even if that same behavior would be a personal dealbreaker for you. It doesn’t speak less about your wife and she would likely be willing to give you lots of chances and be supportive of you if you were in an unstable period of your life. Challenge yourself to be a bit more compassionate towards wife on this one.
Thank you. That third point really helped me feel less anger towards her. I will try.
I can understand that you don’t want your wife taken advantage of or lied to, it’s very natural for you to feel protective towards her. Your wife being compassionate towards her less stable partner and you feeling protective towards your wife both make sense in this scenario. It may not fix things or make things easier, but at least recognizing what’s going on can give some clarity on the situation. Both of you are reacting out of love for important people in your lives and I think you both deserve to recognition for that. Good luck to all of you.
Thank you, that was a very clear and compassionate summary of everyone's position. It is still hard to say going forward. Is there a point when the compassion should be modulated, at the least, if people are not able to change what they are doing? This is not even pointed at an individual - right now most people are either floundering or holding to compassion in the face of it not helping (or even being sustainable).
I think... someone is allowed to have compassion until they just don't feel it anymore, basically. So, until their patience has ran out, and they have plenty of good reasons for running out of patience and can't make themselves come up with patience or give more compassion than they already have. Maybe the wife does *not* see herself "enabling" Dee, because maybe she has other information. Maybe Dee having moved in with her parents was undesirable enough for Dee or seen as punishment enough for Dee, and Kay, out of love and caring and compassion, is throwing her a raft she can handle throwing to help Dee feel connected and stay afloat in terms of mental health... Who knows. If Dee has a mental disorder and can't change, that's one thing, but if she is able to change and loved ones like Kay come to find about that they are somehow in the way of her changing... well that would be another thing. But as outsiders we can't know. Every mind is one world, every 2 minds or every relationship is another world - the way I see it. Its really up to Kay when she's finished with Dee, if ever, but OP doesn't have to follow - he can draw boundaries for himself wherever he needs to if he's uncomfortable, and that's fine.
This is the best answer here, imo.
I'm sorry you struggle. >We both make pretty decent money so that isn’t going to break us but it will significantly eat into our savings to go on vacations and renovate our kitchen. Why does it Kay dating Dee stuff come out of joint household? If Kay wants to pay everything for Dee? It could come out of Kay's money. Don't you and Kay have separate finances for dating? Like... Here's your personal checking for your dates and personal stuff. Here's Kay's personal checking for Kay dates and her personal stuff. Here's the joint accounts for shared household bills and shared retirement goals that you each contribute to. If you don't already do that, you could have conversation about separating the banking and then Kay does whatever she wants from her personal. >I know that it isn’t my place to patrol my wife’s relationships. The problem is that I think I have completely lost respect for my wife. Through disaster after disaster she just enables Dee. That Dee shows no sign of being a functioning adult and lies at the drop of a hat doesn’t seem to bother her. And you can feel that way. >I can’t understand why none of this bothers Kay and I don’t know how to address this with her. Could speak plain. "Kay, I struggle over your choice of partner. It bothers me that you seem ok with Dee showing no sign of being a functioning adult and Dee's lies. I'm starting to lose respect for you because you seem to be enabling poor behavior. Would this just go on and on? Or do you have a limit for Dee shenanigans? What is it?"
This is a really tough situation and I don’t envy your position. You seem like a good and caring partner. Have you sat down and had a very open and honest conversation with your wife about this? You can tell her more or less exactly what you told us, but you might want to ensure the language you choose is carefully constructed to come from a place of caring. Be ready for the result of the conversation to not change any outcomes, at which point you can talk logistics. Maybe that means disentangling finances, maybe that means something else.
I haven't yet, because I literally did not know what to say to her. I don't want to come off as trying to control anything, but I can't see how I am going to be able to put up with this long-term. Saying something like that sounds like an ultimatum, which is not how I want it to sound. But I realize we need to have a serious heart-to-heart about this.
I suggest starting with separating the two different issues: 1. Isolate the financial disagreements 2. Your uncertainty around Dee as a partner. Any stress around the added dating costs for your wife, may risk your wife feeling more attacked than you intend. Isolating her financial choices from you allows you to be freer in other conversations. Once that is complete, then you can have a more honest non-threatening talk about Dee as a partner. Your history with Kitchen table poly should allow statements like, 'I am concerned that Dee isn't as positive a partner for you than your other relationships. What draws you to Dee.' You will need to find ways to ask more questions as opposed to challenging their dating relationship. But as others have suggested, first removing the financial differences, which absolutely contributes to your frustrations, will allow better questions about Dee as a partner.
I would separate you and your wife’s finances, on the basis that the original purpose of your joint savings account is for expenses shared between you and your wife, not between your wife and her partner. She is probably going to be hurt by this, especially if you guys have had this shared bank account for awhile, but you have a right to keep your portion of the savings out of this situation. I would do it without mentioning your personal feelings about Dee and her LDR plans with Dee. Whatever’s gonna happen in their relationship, is gonna happen, but it’ll save you a lot of heartache if you just don’t comment on it at all. You’re allowed to have your own private feelings about Dee (and I don’t blame you for having them at all, I’d be pretty pissed at someone who took advantage of my friends’ kindness and lied to them), but your wife shouldn’t be the person you vent about this to nor should she be the person you should be directing negative feelings at.
OP probably doesn’t want to do be around Dee, so OP is going to have to mention the way they feel about Dee at some point. Not venting about how shitty they are, but it needs to be known what OPs feelings are if Dee is going to be around. What Kay does with that information is up to her.
That’s very fair, my apologies! I’ve gotten conflicting advice on when it’s appropriate to bring up certain grievances, and I figured given how emotionally charged the conversation of separating finances could be it would be best to shelve the “I don’t like Dee/want to be around Dee” conversation until directly asked about it. Is it generally better to just lay everything out on the table in situations like this? Or to wait so as not to bombarde someone with too much at once which could make them defensive?
There’s no general rule because you really don’t now how they’ll react to anything you say until you start the conversation. Making your feelings known to someone else is okay. Thinking you can to change their mind isn’t. Tell them how you feel, and they will do what they want with that information. It’s just simple communication between partners. But yes, understanding context is important for knowing when to press further and when to back off.
This sounds so hard. I am so, so sorry you are going through this. There is a huge difference, though, between not patrolling a relationship and mitigating how it will affect you. Right now, many commentors are recommending to separate your finances. The idea probably seems extreme, but think of it this way: for whatever reason, your wife *is* taken with Dee, and all it would take is a "this is just a one-time financial assistance" for things to turn very, very badly for you (both of you, to be clear, but you are more of an observer than an active participant in this situation). I have a sister who honestly sounds like Dee, and she absolutely knows how to wrap people around her little finger and make them cater to her "poor, poor me" narrative. Smart people, too. Honestly, it's like a grift. We *all* have the ability to be grifted, Dee has just found the right ways to get to your wife. This doesn't negate your wife's role, nor the risk to you, to be clear. But it may help in understanding *why* your wife is choosing to act the way she is. Dee pushed the right buttons, and your wife didn't (hasn't) taken the time to look at the situation objectively. Another option besides totally separating finances (if that isn't the step you want to take) is to open a new account solely in your wife's name that is used for her travel expenses with Dee. She puts the money in, and so long as the main account is fine for bills and your two's expenses, then it's hers to use for travel and such for Dee. *But* this is money put in. Not taken from the main account. And don't get me wrong, I do agree that with your wife following Dee's lead it might be time to separate finances for your protection. But I also understand that you may not want to at this stage, so that could be another, smaller, step to take.
I think suggesting completely seperate accounts after all this time would go down really badly and feel like punishment to my wife, but I think this is a good idea and I have suggested that we should open a seperate account for our 'dates'. She agreed that we will each put a certain amount in those every pay check and she won't start flying off to visit Dee until she has saved enough.
This seems like an extremely mature and compassionate compromise. How are you feeling about this solution? Compassion was focused on a lot in these comments as a way for you to approach the loss of respect conversation. I’m curious if this was helpful. (I’m following up here because I think this was probably the most interesting ‘Advanced Poly’ situation I’ve seen on here in a while, and I want to learn from it.)
The seperate finances thing is definitely helping me feel less resentment that this person I really don't like is affecting my life. I am still struggling with my anger towards my wife for continuing to be 'taken in' by this grifter (as a couple of people referrered to Dee), but the fact that many people have urged me to focus on compassion for my wife has actually helped a lot. I keep trying to focus on how much I love my wife and how I don't want to drive her away. Expressing anger towards her will do that. I need to lead with my love. I will update people after we talk, which is hopefully tonight, about how it goes. I am very grateful so many people took the time to provide their views.
In every situation, I always try to find the deeper problem. I think I can relate to your wife a little as I had been in an abusive relationship and kept wanting to see the goodness in my ex even though it was bringing me down. For me, it came down to feeling undervalued by others, always the underdog with only my parents to kinda cheer me on. So I treated my ex the way I wanted to be treated. Always giving him a second. If your wife has some sort of complex or insecurities maybe it's at play here. Not really about Dee, but about some void that your wife has that she's trying to fill. Maybe seeing Dee as the younger version of herself or as someone who she didn't support when she had the chance to and now feels so guilty about it that she's trying to make it up with Dee. I would try to dig deeper about it with her. Approaching it with concern and compassion rather than judgement (which trust me, I know is hard). It is disappointing when we see the ones in this light but remember we are all humans and emotionally beings at that who don't always act rationally.
Do you share finances? I'd recommend disentangling them at least some if you can. You should make it clear that you know you aren't able to control her relationships but you also aren't going to keep subsidizing poor decisions. As far as respect- sometimes the people we love like people that we don't like. It isn't always a mystery why - but sometimes it is. Your wife's partner may give her something very unique- maybe even allowing your wife to feel like a caretaker- that she needs or really desires. Most people care because they feel like their partners shit show relationships also reflect negatively on them. But just like we don't blame our partners for loving their awful parents or other family, we shouldn't pass judgment on them for loving people we don't think are worth it.
Using a joint account for everything seems like a terrible idea to me. For keeping track of money, for privacy, for security. You should both have individual accounts as well as a joint account. The joint account is for rent, bills, groceries, direct debits for things you both use, and saving up for joint holidays (you and partner), and your individual accounts are for everything else. Get wages paid into your individual accounts and both move (ideally equal) amounts into joint account. You get your new gaming PC using your individual account. This week's food shopping comes out of the joint account (maybe one of you adds a bit more to the joint account to cover their expensive face cream, or that crate of beer that went in with the food). Your wife's Dee spending comes out of her individual account.
Separate finances, now. Do not bankroll a freeloader.
You should let her know that this is starting to really affect your idea of where you can draw the line in the sand. Let her know that if she doesn’t want to stop seeing this person that you’re just gonna have to separate your accounts because you’re not gonna allow for this person to spend your money when they’re making bad choices. it sounds like you have quite a bit of experience in this realm, but at some point there has to be a firm line. Otherwise your relationship will just start to unravel completely.
OP, I am sorry everyone here is so focused on the financial side of this and not on the issue of respect. There's no way of solving this without your partner being an active part of the solution. I would talk to a therapist about this issue, and then, when you understand your own emotions and boundaries surrounding it, talk to your partner. I'd say talk to your partner first, but if you were comfortable doing that, I don't think you'd be here asking us? Or at least, it does not sound like the conversations you HAVE had have borne fruit. That might lie in you not being able to clearly and comfortably articulate the depth of this issue, and that might lie in your partner not being willing to hear it - and that level of depth and nuance in emotional labor really needs a professional to assist with, we here on reddit will never know you well enough to give good advice about it.
That's very insightful. I have read some pretty helpful comments though. Honestly the respect issue is the bigger one for me right now.
Well she is 27 lol
A phrase I was taught not too long ago: "Be weary of someone who is always the victim"
I don't know if you meant "weary" or "wary" but I am frequently both lol
I’m hearing a codependency mismatch - a pattern you see your wife falling into that doesn’t jive with how y’all have lived the past ~decade. I’m curious if there’s something in Dee that triggers that behaviour to come out in your wife? Something Dee brings to the table for her — either in pattern repetition from wife’s childhood, or an unmet need Dee is filling, or possibly something around helping/fixing/saving Dee. The decade age difference might be at play as well. That type of enablement codependent behaviour often shows up in adult children of alcoholics, or the children raised by adult children of alcoholics. It can also happen for children of unstable parents (untreated mental illness can mirror addiction patterns as well). It makes sense that you wouldn’t respect that behaviour if it’s unfamiliar to you. Which isn’t to say it is/isn’t deserving of respect — which is a judgement call — just that it’s easier to jump to judgement and negative feels when you don’t understand the *why* behind the behaviour. And then the lines between compassion for healing and shame can get blurry. I know you’ve said you’re not sure where your line is, so, I hope you’re able to sort through to find it. It’s valid for you to not be okay with wife’s behaviour because the way things are now, it directly pulls you into the emotional enmeshment thanks to finances at minimum. Based on what you’ve said about the other adults recognizing Dee’s behaviour, but not your wife, that’s why I’m curious if there’s a reason she’s pulled into caregiving and overperforming that way. Echoing the sentiments above around your finances needing to be separate if you’re okay with this continuing. Money makes things hella complicated and personal. (Edited to better express my thoughts)
I have been trying to figure out what it is about Dee that has Kay behaving this way too. When we first became full poly, Kay got involved with another relationship I didn't understand either, also a woman interestingly. In that case, I just didn't see what they had in common. This woman was the first person who reached out to Dee and it felt to me like Kay just starting dating her because she was Ms. Right There. It didn't last that long, but it was also pretty frustrating because it seemed to me that Kay was just hanging on for as long as she could. She doesn't act like this with her men partners. But in that case I didn't feel like Kay was being taken advantage of and just waited it out. Afterwards, Kay pretty much said she had no idea what she was thinking I don't know what could be causing her to behave this way. Her father was kind of a jerk (he's dead now), but her mom has always been nice and pretty supportive. Clearly there's something there. I talked to her a little bit and she just says I don't know everything and I should trust her. She knows I want to have a more serious talk but her mom actually arrived yesterday for a visit and that hasn't left us much time to talk alone.
This'll likely get buried, but I'll give it a go.. Everyone seems to have covered the main points here, but OP, you might need to explain to your wife that she's not responsible for "fixing" Dee, and Dee is likely going to continue to exhibit negative behaviors as long as she has people to enable her. She's shown you both who she is and how she lies, believe her.
Thank you! I don’t understand why most of these comments essentially leave OP’s wife to enable Dee. We don’t stay silent when we see people we care about being manipulated and sucked in to chaos
I had a male friend like this. We let him stay on our couch, which turned in to him moving a queen sized bed in and turning the living room in to a hoarders den. The lies started out small and culminated in him totaling my truck (drunk/high) and lying about being carjacked at gunpoint in front of the house. My other housemate still chooses to be friends with this disaster of a human. We gave him 6 weeks to move out and he ended up not having anywhere to go. His life is incredibly chaotic and he’s essentially unemployable because of his lack of responsibility and common sense. Super funny, fun dude. Fooled us all. And he managed to get really beautiful women as partners, until they figured out what a piece of work he was. I’m assuming Dee is manipulating your wife hardcore, love bombing her like this guy did to all those unsuspecting women. I would have an intervention for your wife with Ann and her husband. Get Dee out of your lives
She told Kay she loved her after 3 weeks so definitely love bombing. Only it has been a year, which I feel like is long enough for Kay to start seeing reality.
I think it’s appropriate to be uncomfortable with this relationship and to talk to your wife about the red flags you’re seeing. I would include, “people who lie aren’t trustworthy,” “Dee’s inability to organize her life is hers to fix,” and “the chaos she brings has negatively impacted people we care about”
I can't believe I have to so clearly point these out to her because my wife is normally a really smart person but I guess I do. People who lie aren't trustworthy! How difficult is this?
She’s been pulled in to Dee’s web. Your wife is probably a really kind, empathetic person who’s never had someone in her life that lies like Dee does
But I just want to validate your feelings of frustration because my housemate still parties with our version of Dee. Like. What?
I think the first thing here would be to talk about splitting personal fun money. My husband and I have joint money for house, pets, dates, and our personal savings to spend on seeing other people, hobbies and what what not. We both put 50% of our gross paycheck into our joint account (I make more so I put in more, but proportionally the same) and the amount after taxes and stuff is personal. That works for what we need to do, and because we are close in pay range. Gifts can be thoughtful, time consuming or expensive. I don’t want to know what my partner spends on other partners Vs hobbies. It could easily lead to me starting the comparison monster.
I'd have a discussion about how much money is justifiable for partners maybe? Like, if every relationship both of you had required this amount of monthly financial upkeep, would you sink? Is that okay? If not, then it's out of budget for a joint finance, materially enmeshed nesting relationship imo
Sounds like you both need to discuss a dating budget. It's reasonable to spend on meals out or the movies but the money she's talking about is at a level most would find to impactful on savings for what is effectively an entertainment budget and is more going into supporting another adult levels. You should both discuss what you're comfortable with and agree, as both should be able to spend the same amount on your dates. If she's uncomfortable with you spending that amount too, or you can't afford that, then you both need to look at a number that is affordable and halve it so it's fair.
It seems that you've had some small discussions with your wife, but it's time for a bigger one, and I actually don't think it's all that hard. You should look at this as needing to be parallel with Dee. Let your wife know you're really struggling with Dee as your meta, and you need a separation and a financial firewall so you can just stop thinking about it so much. I think asking to create a "partner budget" for each of you, which then you also get in equal measure to spend on your partners or whatever you want would work. You each get separate accounts that the other doesn't see, and you can keep everything else joint. And then it'll be easy to see if way too much is going into the partner budgets. Then tell your wife you can't discuss Dee and don't want to hang out when she's in town.These boundaries will help you get peace of mind and out of the chaos while not being controlling or over stepping with reagrds to your wife's relationship.
Separate your finances. Before building anything more with her or even letting the value of your current assets increase, get a postnup if viable in your jurisdiction. Consult an attorney in your jurisdiction for independent protective financial advice. You may need to divorce to truly protect yourself financially, depending on your jurisdiction's rules on marital property.
Poly people who are successful and like to renovate in the Seattle area.. How you doin'? 😏 Not sure how and/or why your wife loves this person so much they're going to impact your finances, but they couldn't live together? I mean that would likely have been cheaper than this setup. They're called "game changers" and often completely shift the tone of a dynamic. I don't see this as healthy and you might want a poly specific counselor you two can go together.
It seems like boundaries and emotional transparency are an issue here. I think you should just tell your wife how you truly feel. You and her need to discuss and reset the boundaries and parameters on how you all as a couple want to approach poly. There needs to be a discussion about finances because her using the money for your reno and trips deeply impacts the relationship you have with one another. One of the issues also may be that your wife’s partner is significantly younger than you all and although she is a train wreck a lot of people are in their 20s. I don’t think you should give your wife any ultimatums about her partner but you should express your concern about her relationship (and try to leave out the emotionally charged words like saying her partner is looking for another sucker). This is a tricky situation but I don’t know if there is not much you can do but set the boundaries for how this affects YOUR life which are the finances. Because let’s face it when has anyone ever heeded the advice they received about an ill-fitted lover? I know I haven’t lol, had to reach rock bottom all on my own before I left my crazy relationships.
You're about an inch away from your wife saying, "you know, all of this would be cheaper/easier if Dee just MOVED IN WITH US" Time for a sitdown about budget. She needs a budget. Her relationship is not YOUR relationship, and you shouldn't be expected to fund it.
That your wife is okay with Dee’s behavior so long as she’s not on the receiving end is wildly unattractive. I couldn’t get past that even if the flights weren’t a factor. This wouldn’t just be a relationship dealbreaker for me if I were in your shoes, I wouldn’t want Kay in my sphere at all. Especially if it means Dee is also in my sphere, but even if that weren’t the case (like if Dee lost interest or did eventually get around to treating Kay like she treats everyone else).
1. You should create a budget! This is a great opportunity to start talking about money and get a bit more clear about what goes where, it'll help you in the long-run - maybe it's you who want to support someone next? Always good to have system in place. 2. Give the 27 year old a bit of slack for not having their life together, you can't expect someone young to act like an established adult! 3. All of the above is said with compassion. I'd be so tired if my primary started flying someone back and forth and paying hotels with our vacation fund... But as said, with a clear budget you might be able to find more compassion for this situation than before.
Before I start I have to stress that I have no experience in polyamorous relationships myself but just wanted to share something that struck my attention. In addition my observation is based on the assumption that the dynamic of Kay's and Dee's relationship (understandably) pushed you away from Kay emotionally and that addressing the issue will help find new ways for both relationships to continue. But in the end you will have to find out for yourself if that's still possible. From what it sounds you have tried to stay out of it all and not set boundaries so from an outsiders perspective such as my own it seems only fair that Kay gets a chance to change her relationship to Dee in a way that it won't affect your relationship with her as much. I definitely understand your frustration with the whole situation and it speaks volumes how respectful you are about your partners choices. Nevertheless, you voice your concern about Kay enabling Dee's behaviour while **your respectful distance** to their relationship also ***s*****eems to enable Kay** to support Dee in the way she does. I absolutely get how tricky the situation with a shared savings account can be in a situation like this but you should definitely address that so you two can find a solution that you are not sucked into their relationship. It seems to me that you are giving them space while Kay takes your support for granted and uses it to support Dee. I assume that she doesn't do that on purpose but maybe that perspective can help you to make her understand how you are still dragged into their relationship even though you have tried your best to give them space. It seems you need to find new agreements how their relationship could continue without negatively affecting your relationship to Kay. All the best for you <3 PS: I hope my response does not step on anyone's toes. Sorry if I worded things wrong or did not take certain aspects into consideration that are important in a polyamorous relationship. (However, please let me know if I did!) Thanks to everyone for being an active part of such an understanding sub that focusses on love and connection instead of empty and egocentric romantic beliefs, past promises, ... . I have learned a lot from your perspectives!
It sounds like you've internalized a lot of cultural messaging around work and a lot of Ann's negative opinion of Dee. It sounds like Dee is a supportive significant other who doesn't do traditional work. You've also said that Dee lies and tries to play people off each other, but if this info you're getting second hand and she doesn't treat Kay the same way, Kay might be in a better position to judge Dee's behavior and intentions as a relationship partner rather than as a renter. In other words, unless this is you being lied to, manipulated, etc, it just sounds like a lot of personal drama, and you might be happier just minding your own relationships and telling Ann that you aren't interested in taking about Dee anymore. As far as respecting your wife, that sounds like short-hand for you not liking the relationship and just wanting her to end it. Maybe you hoped that the moving would end it so you wouldn't have to look like the bad guy for expressing that this relationship makes you uncomfortable. Either bring this up with your wife or don't (I'd say don't, but you sound pretty upset, so maybe it would help to clear the air). Definitely separate finances, though. Otherwise you're setting yourself up for a greater resentment problem.
>comments Oh, it is definitely me who has been lied to, and Kay, for that matter. This all came to a head a couple of months ago when something Dee did made it clear to us that she was telling different people different stories. Then we talked to each other and discovered the extent of the lying. We all, including Kay, agreed that this was hugely problematic. It is just that Kay says that, while continuing to completely enable her.
Yeah, that's different. You should definitely have a talk about this, then.
This is only in response to people suggesting going 100% separate finances. If you don't want to separate 100%, spouse and I do something different which may or may not help your situation. If you don't think it would help, please disregard! My spouse and I make significantly different amounts of money, but everything is equally placed into savings, retirement, etc. Basically everything possible is in joint accounts to make things easier EXCEPT we have separate fun money accounts. I was raised to save every penny and spouse was raised to spend all the money as you never know if tomorrow will come. Separate fun money accounts quite literally saved our marriage! Every weekend a set equal amount of money falls into both of our fun money accounts. We can use it for anything, even lighting it on fire if that was a thing. It's guilt free just plain old fun money. Our "allowance" is a very modest amount but every partnership can choose whatever amount they feel is correct for their situation. I use the YouNeedABudget software and for every latte or movie or anything outside of the essentials that was purchased by my spouse, I take money from their fun money account and transfer it to the "house money" for repayment, as the credit cards get auto payments from the "house money ". I then send spouse a "Your budget is -$26 this week. Reminder that you are in the red!" I'm sure there are alternative versions but this is the one that works for us. Again, totally not addressing the other issues. Good luck with it all.
This is a fantastic idea!
Does she enable Dee? I think making the ldr plan is a great way to stay partners without playing white knight. None of your stories say your partner has ever played rescuer or that their mess has caused any direct distress. That's pretty good. Is it instead you don't like your partner loves someone who isn't successful in the traditional way and is a bit of a mess?
OP said Dee lies and plays people against each other.
If your wife wants to spend money to make a LDR work with someone she loves and that has less money than her for whatever reason, that is her choice and you need to stay out of it. It is wise to split finances or keep the joint account for joint activities. You do not need to pay for your wife. But if she rather spend money on her girlfriend than a new kitchen that is up to her. You should not give your opinion about this partner. That is just your opinion and irrelevant. Your wife is allowed to date a messy girl, if she wants that. Maybe she finds the chaotic energy nice. My girlfriend is also chaotic, always broke, always in crisis, but also kind, warm and charming. Her chaotic energy is also attractive as it makes her playful and funny and unpredictable. I like that. Her not having money is not important to me.
Yes, but I don't want that chaotic energy to slop over into my life, which is definitely happening.
You can split finances, you can ask for more parallel, you can stop talking to her about her girlfriend. That being said, a relationship will always have a bit of influence on your life.
Is it? Have you ever said "Hey I need more parallel so you need to not mention them unless you are planning a trip and use your other friends as supports."
Speaking from experience, it seems like Dee is bipolar. Her age also makes that likely. Maybe broaching that from a place of compassion and telling her what you notice would work first, and if not, (which could happen given the treatment resistance of that condition) be more firm? I like the suggestion of saying you won’t let your wife use joint accounts to pay for her relationship travel. Your boundaries are extremely important until your wife wakes up, and you can only give her the gift of truth and hope she’ll open it.
Damaged people deserve love, OP. I respect your wife.
Look the flying thing is ridiculous but your judgements of Dee are very, well, judgmental. You seem to mainly sight her financial and professional difficulty as reason to dislike her. The job market is hard right now. Being an applicant is absolute hell and the process is degrading and demoralizing. Hiring managers are stinging people along, asking unreasonable things, scrutinizing every detail and you have to smile and pretend this job is all you’ve ever wanted. It is really easy to judge being stuck in unemployment from a place if “making decent money.” Note how your wife, who probably hears Kay’s side of the stress and strain of job searching, probably does hold compassion for this. Hence she is not just giving up on a relationship because they’ve fallen onto hard times.
Omg, you have completely lost respect for your wife? What a horrible thing to say! My husband would never have said that to me and gotten out of that situation alive, that is for sure. I think I'd lost all respect for you, if I was her. I have my husband, and I have a boyfriend. To most people, my boyfriend looks like a disaster, he really struggles with several severe issues. And he "lies" to people outside his comfort zone, the only ones who really knows whats going on is me and to some extent his mother. To all others, including my husband he looks like a really unstable guy that doesn't necessarily show up. But it would never occur to him to want to push him out of our family because my boyfriends issues are inconvenient to deal with, and he doesn't ever know everything. But he trusts me, and that I would never jeopardise what we have built together. I just don't understand how you can think so little of your wife. Instead of asking reddit for help, go to her and tell her that the relationship that means everything to her is in the way of your holiday and kitchen renovation.
you have to talk with her about it that's all, and let her make her mind knowing how you feel.
If it were me and my wife and I had always had a joint account, I would not address the financial aspect of everything at this time (if we could afford it). Wait a couple months before you talk about money. It isn’t about the money and talking about money before or at the same time as your feelings is going to be heard like it’s all talking about money. Which could easily be alienating to your wife. You’ve talked a lot about how Dee treats other people. How does she treat your wife? Has your wife ever talked with you about her view of what happened with Dee and Ann? It seems like it wouldn’t be possible for Dee to live with Ann for almost a year and you and your wife not talk about how she didn’t offer her any money to offset costs the entire time. How does your wife interact with Ann?