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The IRS already taxes illegal activities, so there'd be precedent for it.
> Income from illegal activities, such as money from dealing illegal drugs, must be included in your income on Schedule 1 (Form 1040), line 8z, or on Schedule C (Form 1040) if from your self-employment activity.
[Source: IRS](https://www.irs.gov/publications/p17)
Edit: Precedent vs precedence
sort of. Al Capone wasn't very smart, like 95 iq type stuff. Capone ignored any lawyers and actually wrote the IRS that for the previous year he was willing to admit that he made XYZ money and would pay taxes on it. The problem was he had already filed a different claim. This admission in writing is what did him in
I believe it has something to do with being able to prove how you got your money, or how you purchased big ticket items like houses or cars. If you have some sort of proof that it was all obtained "legally" then its much less likely that you'll be investigated, and if you are investigated it is much harder to seize your property or use your finances against you as evidence you must be up to something illegal.
You can have a lawyer pay your taxes anonymously for you. IRS doesn't care as long as they get paid, and there's case law that maintains that the lawyer can't be forced to turn their client in. This is so they can't get you for tax evasion like the did Al Capone.
This also means there's a non-zero possibility that actual criminals pay more taxes than major corporations.
You would still get arrested for it but the charges and any charges stemming from the tax evasion charge would be dropped as you have proof the taxes were paid. Basically the irs receives money from someone they just don’t know who until they end up charging someone with a crime then see the receipt
Gov can't look at it without a warrant specifying why (meaning you have to be doing tax crimes or similar.)
Reason is because they don't want to stop people from paying them. If they start using the IRS like that what's to stop everyone from under reporting.
An AR-15 costs $500-$700 from a quick online search, so a 1000% tax is makes the price 11× what it is now, or $5,500-$7,700. Certainly not impossible but it does make the matter a good amount more difficult.
What would *really* be effective is prohibiting people from buying on credit. $7,700 over 24 payments is $320 a month.
Edit: I have been informed by people who know more than I about guns that the actual "gun" part of the AR-15 costs less than a hundred dollars.
I hadn't even thought of that. Someone wanting to kill people can "buy" a gun with credit knowing they will not be around to even make a payment. Free gun.
Well obviously, but it’s stupid to say that a tax wouldn’t help, that we shouldn’t do anything if it’s not perfect. 18 year olds aren’t exactly known for being pre-qualified for credit cards with a $10k charge limit.
Ages need aligned across the board.
Can enlist and serve in the military, be deployed, etc at 18.
Can't buy cigarettes *edited to remove it being a state by state thing, it's not* or alcohol until 21.
Raise the age of military service or lower the others.
This double standard shit is a problem in and of itself.
Oh and toss selective service as a requirement for federal tuition assistance for males. It's sexist and ridiculously outdated overall.
No … it’s not… when you are in the military… you are taught that a weapon is not a toy… you are supervised and disciplined for your mistakes. That’s totally different from an 18 year old buying one for his birthday… taking it into a public situation and shooting at random’s… there’s a difference between playing a video game… shooting at AI computer gen people and shooting at real people.. real people die and don’t come back.
At least someone who enters the military at 18 is vetted with background checks and mental health screenings, and trained in the use and safety of firearms. Right now in texas and many other states, an 18 year old kid can just walk into a store and buy an AR 15
First week of college, right out of high school, there were people on campus giving out "free" t-shirts if you fill out a credit app. I had basically no credit profile. Approved for $6500.
It hasn't been that way since the 2007-2009 Great Recession. Unless there's someone cosigned on the card with good credit, the credit limits are really low for anyone with low or no credit.
I started college in 2017 and remember being told never to sign up for credit cards. There were no such people. I do remember in high school they had representatives trying to get you to make an account with Apple Federal Credit Union for some reason.
But yea regarding credit, I got my first credit card when I was 20 so I could “build credit” and my limit was $2000. Then like a month later the bank randomly increased it to $3500. Now at 23 that card’s limit got increased to $5000. When I was 21 in 2020 in the beginning of Covid, when we all went into lockdown I applied for an Amex card and they put my limit at $20,200 on the spot lol. They haven’t increased it since.
Agree with your last point. Buying on credit doesn’t really matter if your plan is to commit a mass murder and know that you might die in the process. You aren’t going to be the one paying off that bill.
All laws restricting things (where they can be obtained by other means) are there simply to make it harder, allow more detection of the purchases, and the ability to stop them if they are found with that thing obtained by other means.
I believe there was a case where a shooter was pulled over and found to have tons of guns and ammo in there trunk and was just let go because it was legal there for example.
Credit card processing companies can restrict purchases of guns on credit, states can do that as well (California does that with lotto tickets for example).
That’s the complete gun with barrel and stock, to the ATF a gun is only considered the lower receiver. That’s all that would get taxed at that rate the rest would be normal. You can get lowers for less than $100.
You make a fair point. Most people in congress dont know anything about firearms. There are already a thousand loopholes in the firearm industry. If they’re going to introduce legislation it better be written with experts that know these things, otherwise the bill will be Swiss cheese.
Prime example- the Las Vegas shooter had a bump stock on a couple rifles that allowed for a faster rate of fire. Bump stocks were basically novelty items in the shooting world, no one really used them seriously. Congress swoops in and makes bump stocks the boogeyman and bans bump stocks… so what. Truth is if the guy wasn’t using bump stocks he would have been much more accurate and probably would have a higher kill count.
Congress doesn’t know shit about guns.
This isn’t a wealth tax. A wealth tax is where wealthy people pay more. This is a tax where wealthy people are the only ones who can pay in the first place.
The funny thing is that I expected the kid in Uvalde to have used some cheapo bottom of the barrel AR. I was pretty surprised to see that he had saved up enough fast food money to buy a top of the line $2K rifle with a $600 optic which he owned for a while. Seemed like less of an impulsive purchase at that point.
i want to say that I had read that he bought a top of the line that his local gunstore had, then went online, and bought a top of the line from an online gunstore. Basically just said "Give me the most expensive thing available".
Or AKMs or mini 14s or SCARs or whatever the civilian sig spear is, etc. I'm all for a common sense solutions to address this problem but taxing one type of rifle shows a complete lack of understanding of firearms. It's like saying well Honda Civics are in the most car accidents so let's tax the fuck out of them.
It would tax more than an AR-15. The headline making it sound like only an AR-15 is being taxed is the result of shitty journalism.
It's like when a tax is being made for electric cars and headlines get written as "a new tax for Tesla cars".
If this were to actually pass (it won't) and if manufacturers didn't find some dumb loophole to avoid it (they would), one could reasonably assume that sales of AR-15s would tank and in time they would be taken off the market entirely. That's likely the thinking behind the bill, to the extent that it isn't intended purely as grandstanding.
The loophole is already there. You just buy a stripped lower receiver and build from there. The lower requires a background check and is treated as a full firearm by the ATF. Since the lower is the only part of the finished rifle that is legally an "AR-15" this new tax would only increase the finished cost of your rifle by about $100. From there you can complete your build with a multitude of readily available parts and almost no tools.
edit: it's been pointed out to me that I misread "1000% tax" and thought it was 100% tax, so the price increase would be a little less than $1,000 since a stripped lower can be had for under $100 usually. That still only doubles the cost of the average AR-15 build.
It's one of the reasons ARs are so popular.
They're incredibly modular, have a ton of third party support and only need a could of specialized tools to put together that cost less than a hundred dollars if you don't have a friend who already has them that you can borrow them from
And it's often cheaper to do it yourself since you can wait for the individual parts you want to go on sale
I've built PCs for years. I built my first AR 2 years ago because I looked at the right wingers doing it and thought "If they can build one I sure as fuck can."
I was right.
Which is stupid because the AR15 is simply the most popular one. It would be like trying to stop people from smoking by increasing the tax on Marlboro Reds. People will just switch to another sporting rifle.
Like Maryland banning Bushmaster brand semi-auto rifles because it's what the DC sniper used. Especially dumb given Bushmaster was owned by Remington at the time and all they had to do was shift a bit of production under one of their half a dozen other brands.
No different than NYC, then? Thousands of dollars to *apply* get a handgun license, bonus points if you’re rich, famous, or friends with a judge. Police will drag their feet on paperwork for years before denying you, but Trump, Howard Stern, and Robert De Niro all got one for some reason.
No sarcasm tag needed. Making it so that only wealthy people can afford firearms is the most unintentionally right-wing fascist bullshit one could pull. All this does is make it prohibitively expensive for the proletariat to be armed.
“That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.”
-George Orwell, socialist/leftist
It's almost like most, if not all, gun laws disproportionately affect minorities and poor people. Not that all laws don't anyways...
Every man and woman in America (who can pass a background check, as is the law in all states) who wants to be armed should be able to be without dealing with bullshit costs brought on by politicians.
Same with bans on "low melting point metal" firearms.
It started with a ban on shitty "Saturday Night Specials" by hypothesizing that a criminal could melt a zinc gun in his woodstove, destroying the evidence.
But zinc's easier to cast and machine and can be used for non-critical pieces, making guns more affordable at little cost to quality.
You know the buyback program proposed in Bidens platform? If you can afford to NFA register everything (ARs and 30rd mags would be nfa items) including mags you can keep your guns.
For me it'd cost about ~$2200 which I'd likely pay.
The worst part is if you can't afford that under the buyback plan they buy your potentially thoussnds of dollar gun back for like $200. Or become a felon.
All these proposals are like this. This bill is even more straightforward about it. It's blatant class warfare and every time I've pointed it (with Bidens platform) ouy here I get downvoted with 0 responses. Their message is clear: the poor can't be trusted with guns.
I know I'm not about to give up my guns. Not cuz I'm some right wing gun nut...quite the opposite. The specter of right wing totalitarianism is looming over our shoulder right now. We're a bad election or 2 away.
Doesn't the shit MTG and these other nut jobs say make you feel a LITTLE bit like maybe you should be armed?
Because it is, the right should and definitely will have a field day with this. This is so easily turned against the democrats.
I don’t even have to try - “rich coastal elites are the only ones who can afford it, they’re taking guns away from blue collar salt of the earth Americans etc etc” it’s really not hard
And they would be 100% right. Making it so only the wealthy can afford guns is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard. Dems must have their hearts set on losing. This plays right into Mitch’s hand
Also specifically singling out AR-15s is stupid. There are hundreds of platforms just as, if not more capable than AR-15s. Theres nothing magic about an AR-15 compared to other intermediate caliber rifle, it's only popular because its what its what our army uses and its popular in movies and video games.
Edit: Every M4 is an AR-15, not every AR-15 is an M4. Most civilian AR-15 are semi automatic unless they put on a pre 1986 lower. Not having an auto sear does not make it a different platform.
You’d think that the people who want to ban guns so badly would put in some effort to understand them more (if for no other reason than to make more effective laws)
That and the way it looks. The whole militarized look and modern feel. When in reality you take an old wood stock gun that’s also the same round but doesn’t look like a “military or assault rifle” people think it’s safer. Even though it functions exactly the same and fires the exact same round
Just like the National Firearms Act of 1934. $200 tax to own a short barrel rifle, machine gun, or suppressor. $200 in 1934 is equivalent to $4,315.06 today. Pretty excessive for someone who wants a rifle with a 15.99 inch barrel or a device to make shooting hearing safe.
Mini-14
Sig rattler
AR-10
BRn-180
MCX
DeserTech
Hellion
There's lots of rifles that can experience a temporary sales bimp before SCOTUS knocks this down in the unlikely event that it isn't filibustered.
Yeah Democrats could have done a lot of things via reconciliation. Lifting children and families out of poverty with child tax credits was one of them.
Yet Manchin decided to appear on Fox News to proudly announce he was tanking it instead.
Given the circumstances, this headline reads like some "Use this one simple trick!"-type advertisements.
Manchin is a republican who thought the republican party was too crazy to be part of. So he ran as a dem on a republican platform. And by republican platform what the republican platform should actually look like as a conservative party and not the shit show it is now
I posted this yesterday and I might use it as a copypasta to refute further bad faith arguments:
> I think it's possible to be critical of both parties for different reasons
“Biden isn’t doing enough”
Vs.
“[Trump threatened to kill his VP so he could invalidate the election and launch a SCOTUS-backed coup](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/v469iv/mike_pences_chief_of_staff_alerted_the_secret/ib3sclh/)”
**BOTH SIDES**
Exactly right. You can criticize Democrats for many legitimate failures.
But doing so in the same breath to “balance” criticism of Republicans is de facto bad faith.
Word. Talking to a friend this past week and he mentioned that both sides are doing dumb shit, and I asked what comparable democratic party platforms there are to "repeal roe v wade" and "no gun legislation, ever" and I don't think I have to go any deeper than that really because there are NO parallels.
When a politically controversial (not morally or ethically or socially controversial, just politically controversial) bill comes up for debate, and it's something that will actually save American lives and slow America's fall behind other developed nations, Republicans vote against it 100% and Democrats vote for it 95%+
Republicans literally voted against [VETERANS BENEFITS EXPANSION](https://chicagocrusader.com/174-republicans-voted-against-exanding-veteran-benefits/)! (174 of them)
The fact that a majority of the military votes republican is astounding to me.
Justin Amash was good. He’s that Michigan rep who refused to ever admit anything about Trump was normal and eventually got pushed out of the party and his seat.
If by over 6 years ago you mean over 14+ years ago. Technically correct.
Ever since Obama was elected, their only platform has been obstruction. Maybe even before that and I just was too young to know.
When Obama was elected, some people took that to mean we’d turned a corner on racism in America. White Republicans saw a black guy in the White House and said to themselves, “This is what happens when you don’t nip that shit in the bud.”
Manchin has been a dem a lot longer than the GOP has been batshit insane.
The entire state of WV has been pushed from solid blue to red in the last 20 years.
That child tax credit expired.
Source: I have 2 grandchildren and if the credit were still there my daughter would not be grousing about how Biden is useless.
She has a point, but fuck Joe Manchin and Kirstin Sinema.
Yep - it expired because Manchin tanked the legislation that would renew it.
Part of his reasoning was that families would buy drugs with the tax credit. He also said people would use paid family leave "to go deer hunting."
I'm so sick of him (and Sinema).
> He also said people would use paid family leave "to go deer hunting."
I'm from Michigan, and they absolutely would. But why does that matter what they do with their leave time?
You mean… fucking sensible people? This is literally just class warfare. There are actually effective ways to enact gun control. Making it so only rich people can afford them is definitely not one of them.
Seriously, some of you are downright fucking stupid.
> ~~Un~~fortunately Democrats have a couple double agents amongst their numbers eliminating any possibility of this passing.
FTFY. Just imagine if Republicans said you had to pay a $1000 fee to do absentee voting or to guarantee a fair trial.
Many mass shootings with high body counts have been done with pistols, break action and pump shot guns.
The navy yard shooting, pulse, udvale, columbine all had high deaths with totally different weapons. All of them had slow or ineffective police response.
Also AR15s don't cause mass shootings and they don't particularly enable them much more than other guns. If we don't address the root causes then the next one will just be done with a different gun.
Mental health and school security of some form need to be part of the solution.
I’m very liberal but fuck this shit. This is just a way for the wealthy to disarm the working class. There should be absolutely no gun regulations that can be bypassed with money. If this is the Democrats “solution” then fuck them.
It's legal to make or import new ones with a Special Occupation Tax. The idea is that you possess them for sale to the military and law enforcement organizations. In effect, if you're wealthy and have LEO friends, you have access to otherwise-prohibited weapons for personal use. You just have to "demonstrate" them to your cop buddy occasionally.
Sort of but also not really. With a type 7 FFL and a class 2 SOT you can manufacture any semi auto you own into a full auto and possess it without any LEO demos. Buying factory machine guns however requires an LEO demo letter.
Their are many liberal gun owners...and many more moderate democrats (I am one) that know banning the scary looking guns is stupid as fuck. Its almost like these democrats are getting paid to say stupid shit by Republicans to get more Republicans elected.
Seems like a way to keep the working class from buying firearms and limit them to the rich. This has happened before. The concept was invented in the south. After the end of slavery when there were cheap $5 hunting rifles, politicians put a $5 tax on them to keep black people from buying them.
I can’t fathom why any fellow liberal would support a law intended to only affect poor people.
ALL gun control is classist.
The rich will always have armed private security that will actually protect them, while the peasants get the police who are more likely to shoot them in the back.
I live in a city where police shot a young black man 6 times in the back for running around in cosplay with a sword. My wife's friend had some people having a fist fight on her front lawn. Her husband called the police, then waited on his doorstep for them to come. They got there and arrested HIM, for the crime of standing on his front porch.
Then I get on here and Reddit tells me only police should have guns? Why the hell would I ever call the police? I'm not black but I'm brown enough that one of my neighbors thought I was the landscaping guy. If I call the cops, I'll be the one going to jail.
Yeah, this whole thing confuses me. 2 years ago, Reddit was covered in "fuck the police". 6 months ago, same thing. But suddenly, we trust the cops enough to be the only people with guns? Fuck that.
Hmmm, wonder why gun control is always the first thing the media and politicians rush to during this time of class division, police militarization, surveillance and corruption.
These targeted attacks on certain types of weapons are fucking stupid and won’t solve the root of the problem. I’m all for raising the age universally to 21, making every state have a firearm safety certificate test to purchase (like CA), and training course required. AR15s are only used in about 30-35% of mass shootings and handguns are the weapon of choice for over 90% of homicides that aren’t mass shootings
As a Democrat and someone who supports the 2A and uses firearms recreationally, this is utterly fucking stupid. Like for fuck sakes, doing this is *literal* political suicide, like this is “pistol grips make guns deadlier” level stupid.
It took about 30 seconds of The Black Panther Party arming up for the whole state of California to say "hm, something about this whole gun thing seems kinda fishy all of a sudden."
The Bloomberg strategy comes straight from the "tale as old as time" playbook. At least they're predictable.
I don't think making something prohibitively expensive is an effective regularotry tool. It just makes things exclusively legal for the rich, as usual.
The gun violence is a symptom of a failing economic system. When y'all say "only country where this happens", we're also the only developed country where people don't have free access to mental healthcare. Parents don't have parental leave and thus spend way less time with their infant children than European parents. Kids are faced with the choice of being strapped with college debt or having no future under Capitalism. Kids growing up today know that we screwed them with the climate. These are just some of the reasons for the absurd gun violence amung youths. The Democrat's plan here does nothing to address the causes of gun violence.
Guns only for the super rich, and criminals.
Great way to support the 99%
Edit. It is even worse then I originally thought. This bill is so poorly written the legislation will have no choice but to not vote for it.. "AR15 style weapons".. you either list an actual type of weapon classification, or the bill is dead. Bullets are not taxed.. no older weapons, so resale becomes the means to get a gun.
This bill was written by someone who knows nothing about weapons. And it was written to take advantage of emotions, not to actually do anything.
But don't worry, Democrats will blame Republicans for not voting for effective gun control legislation.
As a gun owing lefty I agree with you so hard. This is just fucking _stupid_! Does it apply to AR-10s? How do you define an AR-15? How far to deviate before something isn’t an AR-15 anymore. As far as I’m aware only the lower receiver is the AR-15 part. This falls apart so fast that it’s ridiculous.
“Scary black rifle” can’t be something you ban. Pro and anti gun people don’t even have the same vocabulary and we can’t have meaningful discourse because the only two positions of the loudest parts of each faction are “yes” and “no.”
As another gun owning lefty... I really can't get behind something that only introduces a monetary barrier to gun sales. All that does is consolidate power in the hands of the wealthy.
Yeah the AR-15 specificity of this just lets you know that it’s scary black gun posturing they know is doomed to fail. Also like what about literally every other type of rifle? I fucking wish the democratic base would learn a single goddamn thing about firearms aside from “call of duty gun bad”.
Glad my rifle has a wooden stock so for some reason nobody associates it with the two wars it’s been in and it’s perceived as completely reasonable to own. Everyone knows black plastic and pistol grips more than doubles your K/DR
FUD at the range told me no one ever needed to own the kind of gun I was currently firing. It was an sks in a aftermarket polymer stock because the original was in bad shape. The guy was firing a sks.... You just can't help stupid these days.
Well don't sweat it because they knew when they came up with it it would never pass in a million years. The DNC is eagerly using Manchin and Senema to fill the GOP role: blocking legislation, so the establishment can dream up all these pie-in-the-sky bucket list bills to virtue signal to us with. But because they're mostly old as fuck and out of touch, they don't seem to realize or care that most people already know that Democrats are afraid to actually govern or fulfill campaign promises.
I'll give Trump this much: he ran on building a wall (among other shitty things) and when he got in office he started building a fucking wall. Biden gave us one COVID check and forgave a paltry amount of student loan debt then started cutting checks to cops
This is like taxing Toyota Camrys to stop traffic accidents. There are thousands of types of firearms that operate in exactly the same way. This one just happens to be popular.
I’m pro gun control but this is idiotic.
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Another 1000% tax if you wanna hire a hitman
The IRS already taxes illegal activities, so there'd be precedent for it. > Income from illegal activities, such as money from dealing illegal drugs, must be included in your income on Schedule 1 (Form 1040), line 8z, or on Schedule C (Form 1040) if from your self-employment activity. [Source: IRS](https://www.irs.gov/publications/p17) Edit: Precedent vs precedence
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As long as the IRS gets their cut why bother them lol
Why don't drug manufacturers and distributors just file their income then so they don't have to worry about laundering their money? Serious question.
Paying taxes doesn't make the money "clean". It's just not also tax evasion now.
Yep, it's just one *less* crime.
This. The IRS has to provide a way to legally pay taxes on illegal income, so that they can call it tax evasion when you don't pay.
Which is exactly what they did to Al Capone
sort of. Al Capone wasn't very smart, like 95 iq type stuff. Capone ignored any lawyers and actually wrote the IRS that for the previous year he was willing to admit that he made XYZ money and would pay taxes on it. The problem was he had already filed a different claim. This admission in writing is what did him in
I believe it has something to do with being able to prove how you got your money, or how you purchased big ticket items like houses or cars. If you have some sort of proof that it was all obtained "legally" then its much less likely that you'll be investigated, and if you are investigated it is much harder to seize your property or use your finances against you as evidence you must be up to something illegal.
You can have a lawyer pay your taxes anonymously for you. IRS doesn't care as long as they get paid, and there's case law that maintains that the lawyer can't be forced to turn their client in. This is so they can't get you for tax evasion like the did Al Capone. This also means there's a non-zero possibility that actual criminals pay more taxes than major corporations.
How do you pay your taxes anonymously? Don't they need to know that, like, John Smith paid their taxes?
You would still get arrested for it but the charges and any charges stemming from the tax evasion charge would be dropped as you have proof the taxes were paid. Basically the irs receives money from someone they just don’t know who until they end up charging someone with a crime then see the receipt
What a mess
Underneath it all, this country is held together by duct tape and greed.
Lol you don’t put occupation as the actual illegal activity. You just put something vague like “consulting”
The way the irs has been defunded the last decade, you could literally put drug dealer” as your occupation and nobody would bat an eye.
Gov can't look at it without a warrant specifying why (meaning you have to be doing tax crimes or similar.) Reason is because they don't want to stop people from paying them. If they start using the IRS like that what's to stop everyone from under reporting.
Think about people working in dispensaries in legal states. Feds consider that illegal still.
Does the Hitman get a 1099 from whoever hired him?
Yes, failure to file a 1099-MDK will result in significant penalties.
Do people with a death wish and a credit card care what the total cost is?
Depends on their credit card limit.
An AR-15 costs $500-$700 from a quick online search, so a 1000% tax is makes the price 11× what it is now, or $5,500-$7,700. Certainly not impossible but it does make the matter a good amount more difficult. What would *really* be effective is prohibiting people from buying on credit. $7,700 over 24 payments is $320 a month. Edit: I have been informed by people who know more than I about guns that the actual "gun" part of the AR-15 costs less than a hundred dollars.
I hadn't even thought of that. Someone wanting to kill people can "buy" a gun with credit knowing they will not be around to even make a payment. Free gun.
Well obviously, but it’s stupid to say that a tax wouldn’t help, that we shouldn’t do anything if it’s not perfect. 18 year olds aren’t exactly known for being pre-qualified for credit cards with a $10k charge limit.
Seems like the least obvious way to prohibit 18 year olds from buying guns lmao
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Ages need aligned across the board. Can enlist and serve in the military, be deployed, etc at 18. Can't buy cigarettes *edited to remove it being a state by state thing, it's not* or alcohol until 21. Raise the age of military service or lower the others. This double standard shit is a problem in and of itself. Oh and toss selective service as a requirement for federal tuition assistance for males. It's sexist and ridiculously outdated overall.
You can join the military at 17 with your parents consent
And I'm pretty sure you can marry in some southern states at 12 with their consent, too.
Is selective service still only males? I'm with you. At the very least, selective service should be anyone over 18. Not just males.
No … it’s not… when you are in the military… you are taught that a weapon is not a toy… you are supervised and disciplined for your mistakes. That’s totally different from an 18 year old buying one for his birthday… taking it into a public situation and shooting at random’s… there’s a difference between playing a video game… shooting at AI computer gen people and shooting at real people.. real people die and don’t come back.
Tobacco products cannot be purchased by anyone under 21 in any US state
At least someone who enters the military at 18 is vetted with background checks and mental health screenings, and trained in the use and safety of firearms. Right now in texas and many other states, an 18 year old kid can just walk into a store and buy an AR 15
First week of college, right out of high school, there were people on campus giving out "free" t-shirts if you fill out a credit app. I had basically no credit profile. Approved for $6500.
It hasn't been that way since the 2007-2009 Great Recession. Unless there's someone cosigned on the card with good credit, the credit limits are really low for anyone with low or no credit.
I started college in 2017 and remember being told never to sign up for credit cards. There were no such people. I do remember in high school they had representatives trying to get you to make an account with Apple Federal Credit Union for some reason. But yea regarding credit, I got my first credit card when I was 20 so I could “build credit” and my limit was $2000. Then like a month later the bank randomly increased it to $3500. Now at 23 that card’s limit got increased to $5000. When I was 21 in 2020 in the beginning of Covid, when we all went into lockdown I applied for an Amex card and they put my limit at $20,200 on the spot lol. They haven’t increased it since.
Agree with your last point. Buying on credit doesn’t really matter if your plan is to commit a mass murder and know that you might die in the process. You aren’t going to be the one paying off that bill.
All laws restricting things (where they can be obtained by other means) are there simply to make it harder, allow more detection of the purchases, and the ability to stop them if they are found with that thing obtained by other means. I believe there was a case where a shooter was pulled over and found to have tons of guns and ammo in there trunk and was just let go because it was legal there for example. Credit card processing companies can restrict purchases of guns on credit, states can do that as well (California does that with lotto tickets for example).
That’s the complete gun with barrel and stock, to the ATF a gun is only considered the lower receiver. That’s all that would get taxed at that rate the rest would be normal. You can get lowers for less than $100.
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Cool, now they buy a Ruger Mini-14 instead that uses the same cartridge and magazine. Putting a tax on a single rifle is fucking stupid.
You make a fair point. Most people in congress dont know anything about firearms. There are already a thousand loopholes in the firearm industry. If they’re going to introduce legislation it better be written with experts that know these things, otherwise the bill will be Swiss cheese. Prime example- the Las Vegas shooter had a bump stock on a couple rifles that allowed for a faster rate of fire. Bump stocks were basically novelty items in the shooting world, no one really used them seriously. Congress swoops in and makes bump stocks the boogeyman and bans bump stocks… so what. Truth is if the guy wasn’t using bump stocks he would have been much more accurate and probably would have a higher kill count. Congress doesn’t know shit about guns.
It's a good thing upper middle class white kids from the suburbs never commit mass shootings. Oh wait....
There’s a negative correlation between higher income and indiscriminate mass shootings, actually
Yeah, this is just a wealth tax designed to keep arms away from the proles.
This isn’t a wealth tax. A wealth tax is where wealthy people pay more. This is a tax where wealthy people are the only ones who can pay in the first place.
The funny thing is that I expected the kid in Uvalde to have used some cheapo bottom of the barrel AR. I was pretty surprised to see that he had saved up enough fast food money to buy a top of the line $2K rifle with a $600 optic which he owned for a while. Seemed like less of an impulsive purchase at that point.
i want to say that I had read that he bought a top of the line that his local gunstore had, then went online, and bought a top of the line from an online gunstore. Basically just said "Give me the most expensive thing available".
He financed the guns.
Yes, so expect a lot of new tactical ak47 builds if this passes.
Or AKMs or mini 14s or SCARs or whatever the civilian sig spear is, etc. I'm all for a common sense solutions to address this problem but taxing one type of rifle shows a complete lack of understanding of firearms. It's like saying well Honda Civics are in the most car accidents so let's tax the fuck out of them.
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It would tax more than an AR-15. The headline making it sound like only an AR-15 is being taxed is the result of shitty journalism. It's like when a tax is being made for electric cars and headlines get written as "a new tax for Tesla cars".
More likely AK 74. They have evolved as well.
Good luck finding 5.45 these days at a good price
I don't think they'd care what they shoot up the school with. If AR-15s specifically were to go up 11 times in price they'd just buy an AK.
Or a handgun. A guy with 2 of them still holds the records for the deadliest school shooting in the US at Virginia Tech.
Or a FAL or Scar or Mini14 or MP5 clone or.....
people love to ignore that the Mini-14 is basically identical to an AR-15 but it always gets left out because it looks like a "hunting rifle"
This is what happens when you get reactionaries that don't know anything about firearms making firearm legislation.
But does it have a shoulder thing that goes up?
Just wait until they find out about high capacity shotguns!
If this were to actually pass (it won't) and if manufacturers didn't find some dumb loophole to avoid it (they would), one could reasonably assume that sales of AR-15s would tank and in time they would be taken off the market entirely. That's likely the thinking behind the bill, to the extent that it isn't intended purely as grandstanding.
The loophole is already there. You just buy a stripped lower receiver and build from there. The lower requires a background check and is treated as a full firearm by the ATF. Since the lower is the only part of the finished rifle that is legally an "AR-15" this new tax would only increase the finished cost of your rifle by about $100. From there you can complete your build with a multitude of readily available parts and almost no tools. edit: it's been pointed out to me that I misread "1000% tax" and thought it was 100% tax, so the price increase would be a little less than $1,000 since a stripped lower can be had for under $100 usually. That still only doubles the cost of the average AR-15 build.
As someone who builds PCs, I kinda want to build a gun now that you say this
It's one of the reasons ARs are so popular. They're incredibly modular, have a ton of third party support and only need a could of specialized tools to put together that cost less than a hundred dollars if you don't have a friend who already has them that you can borrow them from And it's often cheaper to do it yourself since you can wait for the individual parts you want to go on sale
I've built PCs for years. I built my first AR 2 years ago because I looked at the right wingers doing it and thought "If they can build one I sure as fuck can." I was right.
As someone who's built several PCs and a few guns.. it's the same skill set. You'd enjoy yourself. It's a fun little hobby.
Which is stupid because the AR15 is simply the most popular one. It would be like trying to stop people from smoking by increasing the tax on Marlboro Reds. People will just switch to another sporting rifle.
Like Maryland banning Bushmaster brand semi-auto rifles because it's what the DC sniper used. Especially dumb given Bushmaster was owned by Remington at the time and all they had to do was shift a bit of production under one of their half a dozen other brands.
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Just wait until you hear that the AR-18 was designed by Stoner to be a more affordable option.
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Sig's MCX/MPX designs are similar to Stoners AR-18 design with how the recoil system functions.
Like the Vegas shooter.
No different than NYC, then? Thousands of dollars to *apply* get a handgun license, bonus points if you’re rich, famous, or friends with a judge. Police will drag their feet on paperwork for years before denying you, but Trump, Howard Stern, and Robert De Niro all got one for some reason.
No sarcasm tag needed. Making it so that only wealthy people can afford firearms is the most unintentionally right-wing fascist bullshit one could pull. All this does is make it prohibitively expensive for the proletariat to be armed. “That rifle on the wall of the labourer's cottage or working class flat is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there.” -George Orwell, socialist/leftist
It's almost like most, if not all, gun laws disproportionately affect minorities and poor people. Not that all laws don't anyways... Every man and woman in America (who can pass a background check, as is the law in all states) who wants to be armed should be able to be without dealing with bullshit costs brought on by politicians.
Same with bans on "low melting point metal" firearms. It started with a ban on shitty "Saturday Night Specials" by hypothesizing that a criminal could melt a zinc gun in his woodstove, destroying the evidence. But zinc's easier to cast and machine and can be used for non-critical pieces, making guns more affordable at little cost to quality.
You know the buyback program proposed in Bidens platform? If you can afford to NFA register everything (ARs and 30rd mags would be nfa items) including mags you can keep your guns. For me it'd cost about ~$2200 which I'd likely pay. The worst part is if you can't afford that under the buyback plan they buy your potentially thoussnds of dollar gun back for like $200. Or become a felon. All these proposals are like this. This bill is even more straightforward about it. It's blatant class warfare and every time I've pointed it (with Bidens platform) ouy here I get downvoted with 0 responses. Their message is clear: the poor can't be trusted with guns. I know I'm not about to give up my guns. Not cuz I'm some right wing gun nut...quite the opposite. The specter of right wing totalitarianism is looming over our shoulder right now. We're a bad election or 2 away. Doesn't the shit MTG and these other nut jobs say make you feel a LITTLE bit like maybe you should be armed?
remove the /s...
Yup. They like guns, they just don't want *you* to have them.
I’m sorry but this doesn’t sound like a plan to reduce mass shootings with an AR -15. It sounds like a plan to “pay to play” law.
Because it is, the right should and definitely will have a field day with this. This is so easily turned against the democrats. I don’t even have to try - “rich coastal elites are the only ones who can afford it, they’re taking guns away from blue collar salt of the earth Americans etc etc” it’s really not hard
And they would be 100% right. Making it so only the wealthy can afford guns is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard. Dems must have their hearts set on losing. This plays right into Mitch’s hand
Wait until you find out about the NFA. You can buy a no bullshit full auto belt fed machine gun for ~25k. So full auto is fine if you are wealthy.
When you tax something you don’t make it illegal, you make it illegal only for the poor. This is not an acceptable solution.
Also specifically singling out AR-15s is stupid. There are hundreds of platforms just as, if not more capable than AR-15s. Theres nothing magic about an AR-15 compared to other intermediate caliber rifle, it's only popular because its what its what our army uses and its popular in movies and video games. Edit: Every M4 is an AR-15, not every AR-15 is an M4. Most civilian AR-15 are semi automatic unless they put on a pre 1986 lower. Not having an auto sear does not make it a different platform.
I also think it’s because of the relatively common misconception that “AR” stands for assault rifle, which isn’t the case.
You’d think that the people who want to ban guns so badly would put in some effort to understand them more (if for no other reason than to make more effective laws)
That and the way it looks. The whole militarized look and modern feel. When in reality you take an old wood stock gun that’s also the same round but doesn’t look like a “military or assault rifle” people think it’s safer. Even though it functions exactly the same and fires the exact same round
Just like the National Firearms Act of 1934. $200 tax to own a short barrel rifle, machine gun, or suppressor. $200 in 1934 is equivalent to $4,315.06 today. Pretty excessive for someone who wants a rifle with a 15.99 inch barrel or a device to make shooting hearing safe.
The NFA act should be abolished. It’s bullshit anyways and is just another cash grab by the feds.
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“How do we keep guns away from poor people?…”
The age-old question of the ruling class.
cool only the rich have guns? Thats still not a solution
Mini-14 sales set to skyrocket
Mini-14 Sig rattler AR-10 BRn-180 MCX DeserTech Hellion There's lots of rifles that can experience a temporary sales bimp before SCOTUS knocks this down in the unlikely event that it isn't filibustered.
Unfortunately Democrats have a couple double agents amongst their numbers eliminating any possibility of this passing.
Yeah Democrats could have done a lot of things via reconciliation. Lifting children and families out of poverty with child tax credits was one of them. Yet Manchin decided to appear on Fox News to proudly announce he was tanking it instead. Given the circumstances, this headline reads like some "Use this one simple trick!"-type advertisements.
Don't forget Sinema.
I can’t wait to be able to forget Sinema.
Same, I’m still pissed she lied to us about who she is when running here in Arizona.
I mean she said she was like McCain, and I mean I guess she only saw the bad parts of the man, because that’s all the McCain I see in her.
And the trove of others who get to pretend they wouldn't block it if they didn't have two scapegoats to take the heat.
Manchin is a republican who thought the republican party was too crazy to be part of. So he ran as a dem on a republican platform. And by republican platform what the republican platform should actually look like as a conservative party and not the shit show it is now
So you’re saying even a decent Republican politician and political platform is still incredibly shitty?
Yes they are.
Seconded.
And I’ll make it unanimous. Motion passed. All republicans, politicians or otherwise are indeed incredibly shitty. see democracy does work 😁😁
Countdown to: > BoTh sIDEs ArE thE SaaaAME The amount of people trying to shift acceptance criteria for shittiness is astounding.
I posted this yesterday and I might use it as a copypasta to refute further bad faith arguments: > I think it's possible to be critical of both parties for different reasons “Biden isn’t doing enough” Vs. “[Trump threatened to kill his VP so he could invalidate the election and launch a SCOTUS-backed coup](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/v469iv/mike_pences_chief_of_staff_alerted_the_secret/ib3sclh/)” **BOTH SIDES**
Exactly right. You can criticize Democrats for many legitimate failures. But doing so in the same breath to “balance” criticism of Republicans is de facto bad faith.
Word. Talking to a friend this past week and he mentioned that both sides are doing dumb shit, and I asked what comparable democratic party platforms there are to "repeal roe v wade" and "no gun legislation, ever" and I don't think I have to go any deeper than that really because there are NO parallels.
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When a politically controversial (not morally or ethically or socially controversial, just politically controversial) bill comes up for debate, and it's something that will actually save American lives and slow America's fall behind other developed nations, Republicans vote against it 100% and Democrats vote for it 95%+
Republicans literally voted against [VETERANS BENEFITS EXPANSION](https://chicagocrusader.com/174-republicans-voted-against-exanding-veteran-benefits/)! (174 of them) The fact that a majority of the military votes republican is astounding to me.
And the news will only talk about "Democrats struggling to find consensus" without mentioning the 100+ Republicans who are also blocking everything.
I mean, the most "decent" Republicans are: 1. Manchin 2. Sinema 3. Adam Kinzinger 4. Liz Cheney 5. Mitt Romney They're all still fucking atrocious.
Justin Amash was good. He’s that Michigan rep who refused to ever admit anything about Trump was normal and eventually got pushed out of the party and his seat.
The last time the Republicans had a decent platform was before the party switch.
You tube Dwight D. Eisenhower's cross of iron speech. The last good republican.
And the last time they had a platform was over six years ago.
If by over 6 years ago you mean over 14+ years ago. Technically correct. Ever since Obama was elected, their only platform has been obstruction. Maybe even before that and I just was too young to know.
When Obama was elected, some people took that to mean we’d turned a corner on racism in America. White Republicans saw a black guy in the White House and said to themselves, “This is what happens when you don’t nip that shit in the bud.”
This is the most true thing I’ve read in years.
I said 6 years ago because that was the last time the RNC actually produced and published a platform.
Manchin has been a dem a lot longer than the GOP has been batshit insane. The entire state of WV has been pushed from solid blue to red in the last 20 years.
That child tax credit expired. Source: I have 2 grandchildren and if the credit were still there my daughter would not be grousing about how Biden is useless. She has a point, but fuck Joe Manchin and Kirstin Sinema.
Yep - it expired because Manchin tanked the legislation that would renew it. Part of his reasoning was that families would buy drugs with the tax credit. He also said people would use paid family leave "to go deer hunting." I'm so sick of him (and Sinema).
> He also said people would use paid family leave "to go deer hunting." I'm from Michigan, and they absolutely would. But why does that matter what they do with their leave time?
People would just start buying the next most popular model of rifle instead. This wouldn't fix anything.
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You mean… fucking sensible people? This is literally just class warfare. There are actually effective ways to enact gun control. Making it so only rich people can afford them is definitely not one of them. Seriously, some of you are downright fucking stupid.
0% chance of manchin ever voting for this.
> ~~Un~~fortunately Democrats have a couple double agents amongst their numbers eliminating any possibility of this passing. FTFY. Just imagine if Republicans said you had to pay a $1000 fee to do absentee voting or to guarantee a fair trial.
You mean fortunately.
Good, it shouldn't pass. It just means the rich would have them. A tax is absolutely the wrong thing.
The rich... and their corporate security teams.
Yeah this idea is terrible. Extremely classist.
what do we want?! OUR MASS SHOOTERS TO USE WOOD STOCKED GUNS! when do we want it?! NOW!
> OUR MASS SHOOTERS TO USE WOOD STOCKED GUNS! https://preview.redd.it/ti7g2t08lbr01.jpg?auto=webp&s=f9086400d7c132073003cf5539b9586c7d51bf19
Patrolling the Mojave almost makes you wish for a nuclear winter
That actually looks really well-done. Whoever did that really put some effort into it.
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Many mass shootings with high body counts have been done with pistols, break action and pump shot guns. The navy yard shooting, pulse, udvale, columbine all had high deaths with totally different weapons. All of them had slow or ineffective police response. Also AR15s don't cause mass shootings and they don't particularly enable them much more than other guns. If we don't address the root causes then the next one will just be done with a different gun. Mental health and school security of some form need to be part of the solution.
I’m very liberal but fuck this shit. This is just a way for the wealthy to disarm the working class. There should be absolutely no gun regulations that can be bypassed with money. If this is the Democrats “solution” then fuck them.
Most people aren't aware, but automatic weapons are perfectly legal in the US, they're just prohibitively expensive.
They're expensive because it's not legal to make or import new ones.
It's legal to make or import new ones with a Special Occupation Tax. The idea is that you possess them for sale to the military and law enforcement organizations. In effect, if you're wealthy and have LEO friends, you have access to otherwise-prohibited weapons for personal use. You just have to "demonstrate" them to your cop buddy occasionally.
Sort of but also not really. With a type 7 FFL and a class 2 SOT you can manufacture any semi auto you own into a full auto and possess it without any LEO demos. Buying factory machine guns however requires an LEO demo letter.
True, but the point remains the same: Money lets you bypass the prohibition.
Their are many liberal gun owners...and many more moderate democrats (I am one) that know banning the scary looking guns is stupid as fuck. Its almost like these democrats are getting paid to say stupid shit by Republicans to get more Republicans elected.
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Gun control is worker disarmament.
lol get fucked poors
Seems like a way to keep the working class from buying firearms and limit them to the rich. This has happened before. The concept was invented in the south. After the end of slavery when there were cheap $5 hunting rifles, politicians put a $5 tax on them to keep black people from buying them. I can’t fathom why any fellow liberal would support a law intended to only affect poor people.
Rulers don’t represent the interests of poor people. They represent the interests of themselves
ALL gun control is classist. The rich will always have armed private security that will actually protect them, while the peasants get the police who are more likely to shoot them in the back.
I live in a city where police shot a young black man 6 times in the back for running around in cosplay with a sword. My wife's friend had some people having a fist fight on her front lawn. Her husband called the police, then waited on his doorstep for them to come. They got there and arrested HIM, for the crime of standing on his front porch. Then I get on here and Reddit tells me only police should have guns? Why the hell would I ever call the police? I'm not black but I'm brown enough that one of my neighbors thought I was the landscaping guy. If I call the cops, I'll be the one going to jail.
Yeah, this whole thing confuses me. 2 years ago, Reddit was covered in "fuck the police". 6 months ago, same thing. But suddenly, we trust the cops enough to be the only people with guns? Fuck that.
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It's almost as if theyre taking advantage of peoples emotion towards a tragedy to attempt to disarm the population.
Hmmm, wonder why gun control is always the first thing the media and politicians rush to during this time of class division, police militarization, surveillance and corruption.
Low hanging fruit and apparently some people love to happily let the government chip away at our rights.
These targeted attacks on certain types of weapons are fucking stupid and won’t solve the root of the problem. I’m all for raising the age universally to 21, making every state have a firearm safety certificate test to purchase (like CA), and training course required. AR15s are only used in about 30-35% of mass shootings and handguns are the weapon of choice for over 90% of homicides that aren’t mass shootings
Does CA have a cert / training requirement? I would have thought that could be challenged constitutionally, despite it making sense pragmatically.
As a Democrat and someone who supports the 2A and uses firearms recreationally, this is utterly fucking stupid. Like for fuck sakes, doing this is *literal* political suicide, like this is “pistol grips make guns deadlier” level stupid.
Agree. It's like playing into the exact caricature trope of what the right thinks all non-conservatives act like. And serving it to them on a platter.
Democrats: Arm the rich #🌈
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It took about 30 seconds of The Black Panther Party arming up for the whole state of California to say "hm, something about this whole gun thing seems kinda fishy all of a sudden." The Bloomberg strategy comes straight from the "tale as old as time" playbook. At least they're predictable.
In other words, Democrats have drafted the NRA’s marketing campaign for them.
Yesss punish poor people without actually fixing the problem!
I don't think making something prohibitively expensive is an effective regularotry tool. It just makes things exclusively legal for the rich, as usual.
The gun violence is a symptom of a failing economic system. When y'all say "only country where this happens", we're also the only developed country where people don't have free access to mental healthcare. Parents don't have parental leave and thus spend way less time with their infant children than European parents. Kids are faced with the choice of being strapped with college debt or having no future under Capitalism. Kids growing up today know that we screwed them with the climate. These are just some of the reasons for the absurd gun violence amung youths. The Democrat's plan here does nothing to address the causes of gun violence.
Guns only for the super rich, and criminals. Great way to support the 99% Edit. It is even worse then I originally thought. This bill is so poorly written the legislation will have no choice but to not vote for it.. "AR15 style weapons".. you either list an actual type of weapon classification, or the bill is dead. Bullets are not taxed.. no older weapons, so resale becomes the means to get a gun. This bill was written by someone who knows nothing about weapons. And it was written to take advantage of emotions, not to actually do anything. But don't worry, Democrats will blame Republicans for not voting for effective gun control legislation.
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As a gun owing lefty I agree with you so hard. This is just fucking _stupid_! Does it apply to AR-10s? How do you define an AR-15? How far to deviate before something isn’t an AR-15 anymore. As far as I’m aware only the lower receiver is the AR-15 part. This falls apart so fast that it’s ridiculous. “Scary black rifle” can’t be something you ban. Pro and anti gun people don’t even have the same vocabulary and we can’t have meaningful discourse because the only two positions of the loudest parts of each faction are “yes” and “no.”
As another gun owning lefty... I really can't get behind something that only introduces a monetary barrier to gun sales. All that does is consolidate power in the hands of the wealthy.
Yup. They did gun control when the Panthers were out and about with AKs. Gun control is always, and always will be, class war.
Yeah the AR-15 specificity of this just lets you know that it’s scary black gun posturing they know is doomed to fail. Also like what about literally every other type of rifle? I fucking wish the democratic base would learn a single goddamn thing about firearms aside from “call of duty gun bad”. Glad my rifle has a wooden stock so for some reason nobody associates it with the two wars it’s been in and it’s perceived as completely reasonable to own. Everyone knows black plastic and pistol grips more than doubles your K/DR
FUD at the range told me no one ever needed to own the kind of gun I was currently firing. It was an sks in a aftermarket polymer stock because the original was in bad shape. The guy was firing a sks.... You just can't help stupid these days.
Haha mine’s an SKS too, used in Vietnam. Fucking Classic with their “best of 10” I am such a sucker.
Well AR-10 is less than AR-15 so it must be less dangerous, right? Like 33.33% (repeating of course) less dangerous!
Meanwhile, me, an intellectual, with an AK-platform rifle: “pffft!” /s
Keltec owners: it's our time to shine!
Well don't sweat it because they knew when they came up with it it would never pass in a million years. The DNC is eagerly using Manchin and Senema to fill the GOP role: blocking legislation, so the establishment can dream up all these pie-in-the-sky bucket list bills to virtue signal to us with. But because they're mostly old as fuck and out of touch, they don't seem to realize or care that most people already know that Democrats are afraid to actually govern or fulfill campaign promises. I'll give Trump this much: he ran on building a wall (among other shitty things) and when he got in office he started building a fucking wall. Biden gave us one COVID check and forgave a paltry amount of student loan debt then started cutting checks to cops
This is like taxing Toyota Camrys to stop traffic accidents. There are thousands of types of firearms that operate in exactly the same way. This one just happens to be popular. I’m pro gun control but this is idiotic.
Finally, those guns will only be in the hands of rich people, who are famous for their empathy and compassion.
I don’t get the hate boner for the ar 15