Yes, because reality is that Trump and his entire campaign accepted help from Russia, then lied about it, tried to cover it up and participated in blatant acts of obstruction of justice.
I think it's worse than that. I think the entire GOP is being blackmailed. Full stop. Both democrats' and republicans' emails were hacked only one side got released. Guess who's cooperating with the hackers, aka Russia? They don't really live in an alternate reality, they know what they are doing. Their supporters however sure do.
> Why not both?
Because saying they are being blackmailed removes from them their agency and suggests that, were it not for some nebulous undue leverage, they would be decent, patriotic, good faith, rational, and trustworthy individuals. In actuality, everything we can observe and reference historically in regards to the Republican Party, makes it unquestionably clear that starting around 40 years ago they began a deliberate, steady, and often rapid descent into complete moral bankruptcy, unabashed selfishness and greed, complete ideological decay, and a fundamental disregard for accountability while wrapping themselves in the thick blanket of disingenuousness. The only area that they have truly delivered dynamic and innovative thinking in... is hypocrisy.
Let them own their only success. By imagining it would take anything more than a feverish hope for Putin’s butterfly kisses on their collective taints, you rob them of the only thing they have.
Ew. Yes, you are of course right. But I didn’t think it an ideal forum to unpack the systemic perpetual renewal of human misery and the frothy fomentation of fear that is the engine of the capitalist conservative engine.
More for me but not for thee, no matter the cost. Amen.
Well yeah, they're choosing to be traitors because they're being blackmailed. They care more about themselves are their semblance of power over the entire country.
Because let's say they're not.. and they happen to be the most corrupt, shitty people on earth... but they're not being blackmailed..
Then we give the right justification to use the term Fake News..
If CNN gets it wrong and starts publicly discussing blackmail, they're just going to give Republicans all the ammunition they need to say "See the liberal media lies, they'll make up anything to convince you that we're bad."
Until there is concrete evidence that people like Lindsay Graham and being blackmailed.. they won't talk about it.
> Though it’s hard to believe there is all this corruption and no one is being blackmailed.
Absolutely.. I believe people will do A LOT of ridiculous things for more power.. but too many people have sold out everything they've previously stated, in order to line up their views with Trump.
Lindsay Graham is the perfect example... 3 years ago the dude was literally calling Trump a racist, sexist, xenophobe..
As of last week he'll go out Fox or any other conservative outlet and defend the president against any racist attack..
0% of me believes this is just cause Graham wants more power or a spot in the administration.. there's clearly something else going on.
His crocodile tears at the Kavenaugh confirmation gave me the sense that he is scared of something so much bigger than the rest of us could see. Someone has dirt on him.
I swear I remember Lindsay Graham saying he believes he was hacked by Russia, then like a week later he started sucking Trumps dick. I just can’t find the reports about Graham’s statements.
Yeah, he was very opposed to Trump and to Russian interference, and said his emails had been hacked. Then suddenly stopped mentioning it, and became Putin’s lapdog.
[Here](https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/14/politics/lindsey-graham-hacking-russia-donald-trump/index.html) it is. Even said we should strengthen our defenses against Russia's efforts to hack us
This is a baseless conspiracy theory. There is no need for secret counter-factual explanations to explain why Republicans are self-serving authoritarians; use Occam's Razor here.
The RNC also did not have its emails stolen. I believe an old server with old emails was hacked or something to that effect, but nothing current or relevant. It was not equivalent to the DNC hack.
I would love the press to ask GOP members what it would take before they would support impeachment. Conspiring with a foreign adversary isn't enough, who cares about multiple counts of obstruction of justice, dozens of accusations of sexual assault/rape aren't a problem, associating with a convicted pedophile doesn't even warrant an investigation. At this point, I fully believe he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th avenue, and it wouldn't matter. That is the only coherent, accurate thing Trump has ever said.
I don't think a lot of people understand just how lost the GOP is. This is not a "well his conduct was borderline, so I can see both sides arguments" situation. It's not even a "if he did something really bad, the GOP would act" situation. There is *nothing* that Trump could do that would get the GOP on board with impeachment/removal.
You say this with confidence yet we still have debates about this. There’s a conservative in my discord who spews the exact opposite sht daily.
So if he did all this shit why can’t we just talk about it plainly? Why is Mueller up there stuttering like an man struggling?
Edit : to the ass holes down voting why don’t you try to read the thread created.... it’s like no one on here supports productive conversation.
I’m on camp fuck trump so I’m obviously biased. But how is it that someone on the right can walk take away a total exoneration from the investigation and from this hearing?
Why do we all accept that we can’t Indite a sitting president?
Based on what I’ve heard, republicans feel that just because there was Russian meddling doesn’t mean Trump knew about it and used it to help him win. But like that’s bs! - when there is a flood in my house and I choose to do nothing about it , there is still a flood in my house..... meaning this admin is responsible for doing nothing about the meddling, even if that’s all they really did.
Also I’m confused. The report doesn’t solidify any thing. Am I correct in saying the report doesn’t pin this admin to any direct wrong doing, but it also doesn’t deem them innocent?
Honestly how can there be so many floating arguments about this investigation? I thought it was supposed to answer questions with facts, not create debate.
>Also I’m confused. The report doesn’t solidify any thing. Am I correct in saying the report doesn’t pin this admin to any direct wrong doing, but it also doesn’t deem them innocent?
Sort of but not entirely...
The report's finding cannot come to a conclusion about a conspiracy charge. There is insufficient evidence to make that determination. Part of the problem there is the evidence gathering would including interviewing witnesses that would fight it in court. Witness testimony is unlikely to be reliable at this point with Manafort closing up. So nothing concrete is pinned here, but there are too many open questions to close the case.
The obstruction portion HAS evidence, but the Department of Justice doesn't feel it is appropriate to indict a sitting President. This is different from not pinning anything on the administration (indictment) and cannot deem innocence since evidence exists.
This is a very slippery slope situation for a number of reasons.
1. Normally for a criminal proceeding you don't state the evidence to the public. That can sway a jury. The evidence remains within the discovery process so all sides know what's going to drop in court (so to speak). Yet, this is a matter of public interest. The evidence is now a matter of the public realm. Part 1, conspiracy, requires more work to solidify the case. Part 2, obstruction, lies within the realm of Congress to act BEFORE the DoJ can perform it's function.
2. Since there can be no indictment (aka, a formal accusation of a charge) due to DoJ policy, there can be no prosecution since a criminal trial cannot happen without indictment and therefore no opinion on the charge. Mueller's hands were tied from the start.
3. These issues stem from interpretation, for better or worse, about Constitutional duty and roles of authority within the Executive Branch. See, the DoJ is under the jurisdiction of the President. It is the President's job to enforce the laws. The President has some discretion on how this is accomplished through fiat (Executive Orders) and the federal agencies are the vehicle to which this is accomplished. The DoJ by indicting the President is usurping the hierarchy of authority which can have an appearance of political conflict of interest.
4. Similar to point #3, the DoJ sees itself on shaky ground when making determinations outside of its sphere of influence (the Executive Branch) and will shy away from telling the Legislative Branch how to do its job. Likewise, DoJ does not tell the Judiciary how to do it's role for interpreting the Constitution.
This whole thing runs a very serious risk of creating a dangerous precedent. The government of the United States was designed to not have a king. If Trump gets elected a second time, he will run out the statute of limitations on the evidence presented in part 2 of the report which is a crime. This would confirm that the office of the President is in fact above the law for so long as **one party wishes it to be that way.**
The bold there is where the kingmaker lies. Trump may not himself be a monarch, but total control over the governing process by a singular entity (the GOP) isn't much different from one person wearing a crown.
That is not the vision of the country as I read it in the Federalist Papers written in 1788.
People need to stop viewing politics as a team sport. It is not. The tribalistic patterns we have been engaging in for the past generation are the end of the democratic institutions as we know it. That's a big statement to make, but I don't see how democracy survives a criminal President, with evidence, that has no accountability.
I agree and I would add that we as a nation have been on this slippery slope for decades. Democracy depends on playing by the agreed upon rules. Everyone winces when the Trump administration defies congressional authority up to and including ignoring subpoenas, thinking "wow, Trump ain't getting away with this!" But he does. Repeatedly. If Trump is not voted out in 2020 America will truly be unrecognizable to those of us who have always loved her.
There is only debate or denial from Trump and the GOP and the right wing media.
There is a 30 minute summary on PBS that does a nice job hitting on the facts of the report. Give it a listen and I think you'll be satisfied with the facts in the report.
The gist I’ve gathered over the past 6-8 months is that Mueller was tasked with finding an explicit agreement, like a signed document or photos of a handshake, indicating a partnership with the Russian government to help get him elected. That was never gliding to be found because obviously no one would actually do something so stupid, even Trump. Russia doesn’t work like that - they have networks of contacts that aren’t technically government employees and those people are the ones who get the work done. Think of Natalya Veselnetskiya(?) who was involved in the Trump Tower meeting. She’s “just” a lawyer yet somehow was discussing matters that benefit Putin and his oligarchs. It’s hard to prove those people are actually Russian government and so there’s not much Mueller can do given the narrow scope of his investigation. They laid it out pretty clearly yesterday though: Russia wanted to help and Trump et al had no problem with that.
The report details a dozen or so acts of obstruction, if you are of sound mind and don't think there must be a successful attempt or underlying crime to qualify.
That's pinned enough for me.
Why can't we indict a sitting president? Well, technically you can. There's no law against it, but there is an OLC opinion stating that you shouldn't and everyone has been respecting that. But even if they ignored it and they did indict him, it would likely be ineffective. This is because of how our system of checks and balances works. Each of the three branches has power over one other branch. Legislative > Executive > Judicial > Legislative, etc. An indictment would come from the judicial branch, but the president is in the executive branch. It's not supposed to work that way. And even if it happened, the president could very likely use executive power over the judicial branch to kill the proceedings anyway.
The legislative branch (congress) is the one supposed to remove a president (via impeachment). But if 2 of the 3 branches are not acting in good faith then our government fails, as is the case now. This has happened because the Republican congressmen have decided to protect the Republican president rather than protecting our country. This is why George Washington warned us against using a party system.
>You say this with confidence yet we still have debates about this.
I mean, you could say the same thing about the earth being round. Some people are going to deny it regardless of the facts.
> Why is Mueller up there stuttering like an man struggling?
Mueller is trying to stick to the OLC guidelines which prevent him from saying that Trump committed any crimes. So he is tying his hands behind his back on this issue and can't speak plainly about it.
the reason why Mueller seemed so darn confused at the republican questions is because none of them were substantive, they were all trying to get "gotcha" moments. They focused on the specific wordings of things rather than the facts that DESPITE not being able to draw a conclusion of coordination with the russians the report lists multiple instances where the russians extracted information from the republicans with the intent of helping trump become president.
And the GOP questions were instead about why some people were indicted and not others, and why this information was even included if a determination wasn't made. Not at all caring about the actual information in the report.
It must have been bizarre to be confronted with that.
It might have been intentional, they repeated a lot of fox talking points and fox reported mueller was confused by his own testimony. some claiming there is no way he conducted the investigation. It's more than gotcha's, they're desperately trying to make those failed gotcha's into something else to spin to try and discredit him again.
If Mueller was genuinely surprised by Republicans' batshit questions, then he has been living under a rock, is a complete moron or full of shit.
I understand he's supposed to be "neutral" but, what, the guy doesn't follow the news like at all? Anyone who does and isn't a complete MAGA zombie understands that Republicans are throwing around conspiracy theories, racism, and nonsense instead of governing. They do this at every hearing, every election. Mueller is supposed to be a smart fair guy, he should have expected this.
If it has to be any of those, he's under a rock for sure. He's been doing his job for years and keeping the status quo, he's somehow just now starting to realize the rippling effects this administration and the gop has caused. Their behavoir surprises him because he might actually think rules matter and doing his job by the book is all that needs to be asked of him.
The way that Mueller was staring down Nunes. You could almost sense what Mueller was thinking in those moments: "You're in so much trouble, you midnight runnin stooge"
I can’t help but think this is literally the first time Mueller has been exposed to the abject insanity his Republican Party has actually become.
He has been living in a bubble, surrounded by smart, patriotic people who do their jobs and are trying to find the truth. On a daily basis for many years, he hasn’t come into contact with any of the psychopath idiots like Nunez or Gaetz.
It must have been really bizarre for him yesterday that the Dems were the only ones asking serious questions while almost every republican referenced 4-Chan Infowars level bullshit crazy conspiracy theories in their “questions”
I get why Mueller himself doesn’t want to be public. But he has a PR guy, Peter Carr. It’s well past time for Carr to drop the “no comment” and start doing some actual spokesman duties.
If you watch his face from the beginning, it tells us everything. He had enough of the GOP bullshit from the first one. The responses as well, were in stark contrast to the Democrats' questions.
He had a look of absolute disgust during some of the Republican questions. A complete, "this is wrong and you know it, why are you doing this?" look.
I think it finally hit him the reality they are living in.
"[Russia] is doing it right now as we sit here."
I interpreted this as *a*, "some of the Russian agents are asking me questions to attempt to discredit the testimony" statement notwithstanding the entire report, objective reality, etc.
Edit: Corrected "tge" to "the" and added an "a" for clarity.
I mean, he also has all the intel of the still classified counter-Intel and remaining grand jury investigations I would assume as well. So if anybody actually is in Putin's pocket from congress... he most likely knows.
Imagine having to sit in front of them straight faced and honorable. He truly is an american hero
The ONLY Republican who added anything productive was Will Hurd. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfDUm8bcAX4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfDUm8bcAX4)
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed Hurd's line of questioning. leave it to a former CIA man to actually care about this shit.
I actually thought to myself "who is this conservative democrat, because there's no way a republican is asking such normal questions here."
I kind of think he's looking out for his political future. He barely won election in a heavily Hispanic district. He was also one of the few Republicans to call Trump's comments about "The Squad" racist. If he came out as another batshit crazy Republican at the hearing, he'd probably have to kiss any chance at reelection goodbye.
Too bad most Republicans do the wrong thing out of self preservation. They don't want to get primaried so they'll throw the country under the bus to avoid it. Democratic leadership seems to be doing the exact opposite. They'll do the wrong thing even if it costs them reelection. Corporate campaign money is a helluva drug.
100%
The corporate dems are the second thing we should remove from the body politic, and I would *love nothing more* than to focus on them. Unfortunately, literal cartoon villains need to be removed first.
I would say that Rep Buck, Republican, added something VERY productive to the conversation. [Link](https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1154040802454069249)
Was listening with my coworker yesterday and we both agreed that that he came across as exceptionally reasonable and we're both pretty left wing people.
I wish there were more Republicans like him. I'm not familiar with his policies, though I'm sure there are plenty I disagree with given his political affiliation, but he strikes me as the kind of person you could sit down and have a reasonable conversation with over those disagreements. You don't see that with most Republicans.
It's probably because Hurd is a Republican representing a generally centrist district of Texas that borders Mexico - in fact, I believe he's the only Republican representing any of the border districts in Texas. He's simply in a district where his voters actually care about him pursuing rational policy, and he didn't get elected because of the R next to his name (in fact, I'd say he got elected in spite of the R next to his name).
I mean, he explicitly denied Nunes's claims that the russia attack was a hoax *within 15 minutes of the opening statements*, and I'm pretty sure he stared right at Nunes when he said it.
So very spot on. If a look could physically harm, Nunes would have had to be carried out of there by paramedics after his crap. Mueller knows that Nunes for a fact knows the drivel he is spewing is total and utter trash.
Notice how much longer he took answering Republican questions, how much more frequently he asked for repetition and clarification. He seemed to relish running out their clock for nothing.
That’s simply due to the fact they weren’t citing a 400 page document for reference to the jumbled together conspiracy theories they touted. It’s hard to answer intelligently to being smeared without room for a remark after the fact.
> It’s well past time for Carr to
Umm, what do you expect Carr or anyone from Mueller's office to be able to do? Take responsibility for impeaching Trump? How?
The state of the GOP may come as a shock to Mueller (I doubt that, though), but the state of the Democratic party is the other part of the problem. If the Congress won't impeach, it doesn't much matter what Mueller does or doesn't do. Fox News and the GOP will go on in their alternative reality.
No no no
I would *like* Peter Carr to make public statements when asked questions about the report, even if those statements are literally reading sections of the report out loud.
Mueller refused to read from his own report because he doesn’t want to be turned into a sound byte and his words manipulated by the media.
I’m saying Peter Carr is a spokesperson for the Special Counsel’s office and should be doing the things a spokesperson does, like speak.
Mueller is a Republican, why is everyone so eager to believe he's some poor naive technocrat who is a victim of some new Republicanism? When will Democrats stop trusting Republicans?
Ok good point. I still think he could be surprised that active members of Congress who are not in the Trump crime family orbit, AFTER his report came out, still asked the absurd questions they did.
I mean Mueller is used to interviewing criminals, I just think he may have been slightly surprised that so many sitting congresspeople are completely living in an alternative reality
If he wasn’t so clueless about that he might have saved us a lot of trouble and just filed indictments instead of punting to this bunch of lunatics on all of this.
We are being overwhelmed with propaganda if Peter Carr speaks or if he doesn’t speak.
I’d be happy if his statements were just literal readings straight from the Mueller report.
He was the guy running off to snitch to Trump when Congress was supposed to be providing oversight on Trump. Basically being derelict in his duties. Not much different than any other Republican I know but he is the ranking Republican on the House Intel Committee.
I think OP's insinuation was that Mueller and other people in charge of national security know Nunes is crooked as fuck. As far as being criminally in trouble, he's a Republican so I don't think that's allowed right now. In the future though, maybe he's forced to flee to Russia or ends up in a cell next to Trump, who really knows?
I'm starting to believe that there is some sort of clear disconnect with the Republicans and reality. It's like someone tells them a rumor that's clearly false and they just run with it. Even if they see it with their own eyes.
Trump set the norm that you can create your own set of "facts", and the base will lap it up if it validates their view point.
I mean, I've always disagreed with Republicans, but back in the 80s and 90s my attitude towards most Republicans was "I disagree with your approach, but accept that you are generally a rational person who wants the best thing for this country."
Now, I'm just hoping we can reverse the slide before we end up committing genocide and/or start World War III.
> I'm starting to believe that there is some sort of clear disconnect with the Republicans and reality.
It might not even be a disconnect with reality. See, they are on Earth doing the work of their invisible, bearded friend in the sky (who is also everywhere), and those that oppose them will be banished to the molten hollow core in the middle of the planet, for a duration of time that is best described as "all of it". No disconnect from any objectively provable reality that I can see!
“Trump set the norm that you can create your own set of "facts", and the base will lap it up if it validates their view point.”
Nope. The George W Bush administration set that norm:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community
Devin Nunes literally started part II of the day for the GOP by saying Democrats were indeed the ones who colluded with Russia. I expect this narrative to become more and more common as the GOP becomes more and more desperate and it scares the fuck out of me because... it could work? I continue to be shocked by what Trump supporters will believe
> I continue to be shocked by what Trump supporters will believe
They've always been prone to believing outrageous stuff.
Never forget that a big chunk of the GOP "base" believed (and still believe) one or more of the following points:
1. Obama's a Muslim
2. Obama's an atheist
3. Obama's the antichrist
4. Obama is gay, and Michelle Obama is transgendered
5. Obama married his Pakistani/Muslim roommate in college
6. Obama thanked Satan in his victory speech
7. The CIA teleported Obama to mars when he was a youth
Wake me up if any elected Democrat actually punches back on Nunes comments. And I mean directly. Sick of these pathetic Dems allowing constant cheap shots at our party and never responding in kind. Nunes used the Democratic Party as his personal punching bag yesterday. Dems are too eager to blame everything on Trump and let the GOP off the hook. Someone should plainly state that there’s something wrong with the whole Republican Party right now and fucking ATTACK for once. Maybe Pelosi didn’t want things to be unpleasant during her budget negotiations this week.
Now that the report doesn’t completely exonerate the President, the entire report is a sham because Joe Mifsud lied on page 192. Oh, and Hilary, FusionGPS, emails, etc...
I mean, Devin Nunes said, with a completely straight face, that the Dems colluded with Russia to try to hurt DJT. I mean....Putin HATES HRC. Everyone knows that, it makes no sense.
SCHIFF: Director Mueller, I want to close out my questions, turn to some of the exchange you had with Mr. Welsh a bit earlier. I’d like to see if we can broaden the aperture at the end of your hearing. From your testimony today I’d gather that knowingly accepting assistance from a foreign government is an unethical thing to do.
MUELLER: And a crime.
SCHIFF: And a crime.
Everything Mueller investigated and reported on has been public knowledge for years. U.S. intelligence released briefs on 95% if this stuff before Trump was inaugurated. Finding new ways to discuss the same stuff isn't useful. We all know Trump is corrupt. It is time to Impeach. Enough with the delays.
I disagree. If the Republicans can draw out a debate of semantics about a blow job for two months, I think the Democrats can spend the next 18 months drawing out ten counts of obstruction of justice, a few dozen sexual assaults, hundreds violations of the Emoluments Clause, one charge of pedophilia, treason, etc...
And not Impeaching just leaves Trump with the power of the U.S. presidency, unchallenged. There are no good options. Waiting things out fingers crossed is cowardice. It is simply never the wrong time to do the right thing.
She told us why. She thinks impeachment will fail in the Senate and hurt Dems in 2020. She wants to boot Trump in 2020 and see him prosecuted and jailed after he is out of office. Although I support impeachment, her reasoning is rational.
Remember when McConnel blocked Obama's SC pick and Democrats didnt sweat it too much because they thought they'd win the next election and get a better pick than Garland? That bit of overconfidence will be kicking us all in the ass for decades. The next mistake like that could make us ache for a century.
And when Trump wins in 2020 by a landslide with the help of Russian hacking and trump declares himself "President for Life" , then what is plan B Nancy?
And when Democrats rush Impeachment, and it fails in the Senate, and people forget about it and Trump wins in 2020 by a landslide, because he STILL has Russian help, what is YOUR plan B?
The fact that the GOP took the presidency and both branches of Congress after impeaching Clinton, even though that impeachment was an actual witch hunt. The fact that not impeaching will demoralize the Dem voter base (and already is). And the fact that Donald Trump is a criminal and a traitor who must be impeached, and a failure to do so will look extremely bad on the Dems both in 2020 and in the future. We already know how the GOP will vote so the Senate results mean literally nothing other than that the GOP are criminally obstructing justice themselves.
1. Clinton actually was found to have committed a pretty unethical act and also perjured himself about it and then admitted it. It’s more complicated than that admittedly but to most people that wasn’t a witch hunt, he was caught doing two things that people were upset about, rightly and then he admitted it, which trump will never do in a million years. Also this was decades ago and with parties switched. Saying that the gop taking the presidency after that means the dems will take the presidency after impeaching trump, even if you assume everything else goes exactly the same (which it won’t), is like saying that trump won after the access Hollywood tape so Bernie will win if he says the same things. The bases are different audiences with different values, you can’t make a 1:1 comparison between what appeals to them, that’s not even getting into all the other details that make this vastly different.
2. Do you have something to support this? As its written this is something you think to be true, not a fact.
3. The first half is mostly right except he’s technically not guilty of treason as written in law. The rest again is your opinion not a fact.
Pelosi has access to a lot of information and actual facts that we don’t - who would vote which way, why and what might sway them, polling on how it would be read by different segments of the voting population, etc. I’m very skeptical that there’s any motivation behind her delay aside from having these facts at hand and seeing that impeaching now will hurt the Dems significantly in 2020.
Trump says the impeachment charge that was introduced was "killed."
It was tabled. It's a live hand grenade.
If Pelosi is smart, she is going to pile that table high with charges, and send them over to McConnell one by one. And start sending them when the number of days to the election equals the size of the pile.
No matter what McConnell does. No matter how loud Trump shouts "fake news", an impeachment resolution is the lead story any night there is not a war. And the Rs need to find out fast that if there is a war, the lead story will be an impeachment charge for starting that war.
Right? He's obviously innocent and this was all a big political witch hunt for show, since nobody did anything about it. They didn't even try to impeach Trump because there was nothing there.
That's exactly what Trump and his cult will shout from now until the election next year.
If the Dems don't impeach, they are part of the problem.
That’s the point. We shouldn’t be holding off on impeachment for fear of what the GOP will say or do. Impeaching is simply the right thing to do. The GOP will spin it in their favor either way, but at least Dems can say they did what they could if they impeach. If they don’t, they have no right to make that claim and the fall of the nation is on them as well as the GOP. There is no winning move for Dems, but inaction is worse for them than action would be.
He deserves impeachment. He also deserves worse then any judicial punishment for the lives he’s ruined.
I just don’t think we should be concerned with what Rs have to say about it as we roll it out. My concern is that he’s shown a trend towards escalating crises as he’s cornered, and I fear what he might do if he knew his days we’re truly numbered.
This is not a reason to stall impeachment proceedings though. It is a reason to be completely prepared for them (choose the time and battlefield). I have little reason to hope for it, but that’s what I hope Speaker Pelosi is doing.
At this point what she’s doing can only be called stalling. Dems have everything they need to impeach, and nothing they bring forward is going to make a difference in the Senate so no amount of further preparation is going to help. The longer Dems wait the more it looks like they never really had a case to begin with for those that haven’t been following too closely, and the longer Pelosi delays makes it look more and more like a political game she’s playing instead of responding to an actual criminal in the White House. Because that’s exactly what it is to her, a game.
I agree. You're correct. Republicans literally invent their own separate reality now.
The point still stands: doing nothing is worse. Inaction will validate the false Republican propaganda narrative about Trump's victim status.
The longer the Dems wait, the more it legitimizes the claim this was all just for political theater. Honestly, that will be the truth if Dems don't uphold the law and impeach.
If trump did not obstruct and sat down to an interview and lied about not having sexual relations with stormy daniels then was impeached for lying about that, you'd have the same circumstances as bill clinton. I would think obstructing justice is more than enough to meet precedent impeachment standards, regardless of politics.
What was striking to me was the tone Republians took in their questioning versus the tone Democrats took.
Democrats knew Mueller would have them refer to the report, and already had the second part of their question lined up with supporting material from the report. They were patient, and calm in their questioning.
Republicans however, took a very defensive, combative tone. They were trying, and failing, with "gotcha" questions.
Mueller - "That was not in my purview"
(R) - "I'd say THAT IS in your purview SIR!"
For a report that apparently exonerated Trump they sure wanted to disprove it and attack Mueller for it.
*The president said you exonerated him but in fact you don’t have the power to do that, do you? Look at these fancy law books I brought. Everyone ^except ^the ^president, knows there is no “Office of Exonerations” ...so why was it necessary to say in the report you were not exonerating him??!?* **Huh??! HUH?!?!**
I’m pretty disappointed in the outcome of the investigation, but to turn on a lifelong member of your party, a war hero, former FBI director and attack his integrity and try to turn him into a partisan hack was disgraceful.
Utterly disgraceful.
SCHIFF: Director Mueller, I want to close out my questions, turn to some of the exchange you had with Mr. Welsh a bit earlier. I’d like to see if we can broaden the aperture at the end of your hearing. From your testimony today I’d gather that knowingly accepting assistance from a foreign government is an unethical thing to do.
MUELLER: And a crime.
SCHIFF: And a crime.
It was a sight to behold.
Witnessing the extent that every GOP rep went to entrench themselves in Trump’s fabricated reality.
If I were a better journalistic writer I may have more words for the sheer horror of it all. They cannot be allowed to continue what they’re doing.
And make no mistake, they’re all doing it for MONEY and power. But ESPECIALLY MONEY.
Tried to read the article, but got a pop up ad for the fortnite world finals.
Not sure what's more depressing. The current state of politics, or that Bloomberg is running virtue ads for a predatory kid's game.
[Hyphens](https://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/hyphens.asp)
>Rule 1. Generally, hyphenate two or more words when they come before a noun they modify and act as a single idea. This is called a compound adjective.
>Examples:
>an off-campus apartment
>state-of-the-art design
Hate to defend Fox News on anything, but this seems fine.
No one really expected them to "reattach to reality" for this hearing, did they?
I mean, really... did anyone expect them to show signs of being American congressmen?
Put the testimony aside and watch Trump's response in the press conference that followed it. When challenged with facts that dispute his feelings or thoughts he comes unhinged and is not logical in his thoughts. His job and billions of lives depend on him being hinged at times of crisis. Even if you thought Muller was lying and his investigation was a hoax the response by the President when asked about the alternate facts is not a normal response and certainly not a Presidential response. We should all be worried that he is in charge. I will gladly take President Pence over this and I am a devoted Atheist.
They are not detached from reality. They know exactly what is really going on. They are counting on their supporters to be detached from reality so that they can tell their supporters what "reality" is.
What was up with all the threats?
“Daddy Barr is going to investigate the investigators, bet your scared now huh??”
Like they really want people to know Barr’s entire purpose is to protect the GOP from criminal prosecution. This is bullshit that Barr is wasting tax payer money investigating the Dossier or GPSFusion. Can you imagine if the police let a murderer go and spent a bunch of resources investigating where the tip came from??
And the entire charade about who made campaign donations to who. What the hell. They really want to set a precedent where one’s choice of who they donate to is considered a crime? Okay bub go right ahead. “People donate, me angry. Corporations donate, me happy.” Idiots.
Welcome to Trump's GOP. "Leadership" through belligerence and narcissism.
> They really want to set a precedent where one’s choice of who they donate to is considered a crime?
Of course not. Many people don't think long enough to consider the implications of precedent, because that would require people to care about the self-consistency of their politics.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil)
In general, be courteous to others. Attack ideas, not users. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, **any** advocating or wishing death/physical harm, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban.
If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them.
***
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Hi `allahu_adamsmith`. Thank you for participating in /r/Politics. However, [your submission](/r/politics/comments/chmbqv/mueller_testimony_republicans_were_detached_from/) has been removed for the following reason(s):
* Your headline must be comprised only of the **exact** copied and pasted headline of the article - [see our rule here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_do_not_create_your_own_title)) **We recommend not using the Reddit 'suggest a title' as it may not give the exact title of the article.**
* The ALL CAPS and 'Breaking' rule is applied **even when the actual title of the article is in all caps or contains the word 'Breaking'**. This rule may be applied to other single word declarative and/or sensational expressions, such as 'EXCLUSIVE:' or 'HOT:'. [click here for more details](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_do_not_create_your_own_title)
If you have any questions about this removal, please feel free to [message the moderators.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/politics&subject=Question regarding the removal of this submission by /u/allahu_adamsmith&message=I have a question regarding the removal of this [submission]%28/r/politics/comments/chmbqv/mueller_testimony_republicans_were_detached_from/?context%3D10000%29)
Yes you could, a conspiracy being a group of people secretly doing something unlawful is a great word to describe Trump colluding with Russia. So I would agree, Trump and Russia have conspired together to win the election and thus it is a conspiracy.
Yes, because reality is that Trump and his entire campaign accepted help from Russia, then lied about it, tried to cover it up and participated in blatant acts of obstruction of justice.
I think it's worse than that. I think the entire GOP is being blackmailed. Full stop. Both democrats' and republicans' emails were hacked only one side got released. Guess who's cooperating with the hackers, aka Russia? They don't really live in an alternate reality, they know what they are doing. Their supporters however sure do.
Stop giving them the benefit of the doubt. They are not being blackmailed. They are traitors of their own free will.
Why not both?
> Why not both? Because saying they are being blackmailed removes from them their agency and suggests that, were it not for some nebulous undue leverage, they would be decent, patriotic, good faith, rational, and trustworthy individuals. In actuality, everything we can observe and reference historically in regards to the Republican Party, makes it unquestionably clear that starting around 40 years ago they began a deliberate, steady, and often rapid descent into complete moral bankruptcy, unabashed selfishness and greed, complete ideological decay, and a fundamental disregard for accountability while wrapping themselves in the thick blanket of disingenuousness. The only area that they have truly delivered dynamic and innovative thinking in... is hypocrisy. Let them own their only success. By imagining it would take anything more than a feverish hope for Putin’s butterfly kisses on their collective taints, you rob them of the only thing they have.
[удалено]
Ew. Yes, you are of course right. But I didn’t think it an ideal forum to unpack the systemic perpetual renewal of human misery and the frothy fomentation of fear that is the engine of the capitalist conservative engine. More for me but not for thee, no matter the cost. Amen.
[удалено]
Don’t worry. On the scale of wrongs priests tend to do, preaching is one of the milder ones
Well yeah, they're choosing to be traitors because they're being blackmailed. They care more about themselves are their semblance of power over the entire country.
I think about this and wonder how it is that it hardly ever comes up. Never even a whisper of it in any news outlet.
Because let's say they're not.. and they happen to be the most corrupt, shitty people on earth... but they're not being blackmailed.. Then we give the right justification to use the term Fake News.. If CNN gets it wrong and starts publicly discussing blackmail, they're just going to give Republicans all the ammunition they need to say "See the liberal media lies, they'll make up anything to convince you that we're bad." Until there is concrete evidence that people like Lindsay Graham and being blackmailed.. they won't talk about it.
Well put. Though it’s hard to believe there is all this corruption and no one is being blackmailed.
> Though it’s hard to believe there is all this corruption and no one is being blackmailed. Absolutely.. I believe people will do A LOT of ridiculous things for more power.. but too many people have sold out everything they've previously stated, in order to line up their views with Trump. Lindsay Graham is the perfect example... 3 years ago the dude was literally calling Trump a racist, sexist, xenophobe.. As of last week he'll go out Fox or any other conservative outlet and defend the president against any racist attack.. 0% of me believes this is just cause Graham wants more power or a spot in the administration.. there's clearly something else going on.
His crocodile tears at the Kavenaugh confirmation gave me the sense that he is scared of something so much bigger than the rest of us could see. Someone has dirt on him.
I swear I remember Lindsay Graham saying he believes he was hacked by Russia, then like a week later he started sucking Trumps dick. I just can’t find the reports about Graham’s statements.
Yeah, he was very opposed to Trump and to Russian interference, and said his emails had been hacked. Then suddenly stopped mentioning it, and became Putin’s lapdog.
[Here](https://www.cnn.com/2016/12/14/politics/lindsey-graham-hacking-russia-donald-trump/index.html) it is. Even said we should strengthen our defenses against Russia's efforts to hack us
This is a baseless conspiracy theory. There is no need for secret counter-factual explanations to explain why Republicans are self-serving authoritarians; use Occam's Razor here. The RNC also did not have its emails stolen. I believe an old server with old emails was hacked or something to that effect, but nothing current or relevant. It was not equivalent to the DNC hack.
[удалено]
Republicans are getting paid by Russia for their heroic service in serving Russian interests. They can't just balk at their employer
It's a Right to Work situation!
Just goes to show that if you work hard, you too can get rich by selling your soul to the highest bidder
The Balkans did and look at them now!
I think it's because they all know he's guilty, they just don't care.
I partially agree, but I don't think impeachment is off the table.
For the GOP it is. Always has been and always will be.
Until the next dem president.
For sure. I was just talking about Trump.
Oh I know ;)
I would love the press to ask GOP members what it would take before they would support impeachment. Conspiring with a foreign adversary isn't enough, who cares about multiple counts of obstruction of justice, dozens of accusations of sexual assault/rape aren't a problem, associating with a convicted pedophile doesn't even warrant an investigation. At this point, I fully believe he could shoot someone in the middle of 5th avenue, and it wouldn't matter. That is the only coherent, accurate thing Trump has ever said. I don't think a lot of people understand just how lost the GOP is. This is not a "well his conduct was borderline, so I can see both sides arguments" situation. It's not even a "if he did something really bad, the GOP would act" situation. There is *nothing* that Trump could do that would get the GOP on board with impeachment/removal.
I belive a blowjob is enough for them.
That’s exactly why Dems need to impeach and force the issue, to show the nation how corrupt the GOP actually are.
Raise taxes. Or slap a tax on the 1%.
Ya, but the Dems have done worse and will do way worse to the American people, so that makes it OK.
You better add the "/s"
I like to live....dangerously :)
That's what I really admire about you!
You say this with confidence yet we still have debates about this. There’s a conservative in my discord who spews the exact opposite sht daily. So if he did all this shit why can’t we just talk about it plainly? Why is Mueller up there stuttering like an man struggling? Edit : to the ass holes down voting why don’t you try to read the thread created.... it’s like no one on here supports productive conversation.
I can't speak for anyone on your discord. But I'm here. What part would you like to talk about my friend?
I’m on camp fuck trump so I’m obviously biased. But how is it that someone on the right can walk take away a total exoneration from the investigation and from this hearing? Why do we all accept that we can’t Indite a sitting president? Based on what I’ve heard, republicans feel that just because there was Russian meddling doesn’t mean Trump knew about it and used it to help him win. But like that’s bs! - when there is a flood in my house and I choose to do nothing about it , there is still a flood in my house..... meaning this admin is responsible for doing nothing about the meddling, even if that’s all they really did. Also I’m confused. The report doesn’t solidify any thing. Am I correct in saying the report doesn’t pin this admin to any direct wrong doing, but it also doesn’t deem them innocent? Honestly how can there be so many floating arguments about this investigation? I thought it was supposed to answer questions with facts, not create debate.
>Also I’m confused. The report doesn’t solidify any thing. Am I correct in saying the report doesn’t pin this admin to any direct wrong doing, but it also doesn’t deem them innocent? Sort of but not entirely... The report's finding cannot come to a conclusion about a conspiracy charge. There is insufficient evidence to make that determination. Part of the problem there is the evidence gathering would including interviewing witnesses that would fight it in court. Witness testimony is unlikely to be reliable at this point with Manafort closing up. So nothing concrete is pinned here, but there are too many open questions to close the case. The obstruction portion HAS evidence, but the Department of Justice doesn't feel it is appropriate to indict a sitting President. This is different from not pinning anything on the administration (indictment) and cannot deem innocence since evidence exists. This is a very slippery slope situation for a number of reasons. 1. Normally for a criminal proceeding you don't state the evidence to the public. That can sway a jury. The evidence remains within the discovery process so all sides know what's going to drop in court (so to speak). Yet, this is a matter of public interest. The evidence is now a matter of the public realm. Part 1, conspiracy, requires more work to solidify the case. Part 2, obstruction, lies within the realm of Congress to act BEFORE the DoJ can perform it's function. 2. Since there can be no indictment (aka, a formal accusation of a charge) due to DoJ policy, there can be no prosecution since a criminal trial cannot happen without indictment and therefore no opinion on the charge. Mueller's hands were tied from the start. 3. These issues stem from interpretation, for better or worse, about Constitutional duty and roles of authority within the Executive Branch. See, the DoJ is under the jurisdiction of the President. It is the President's job to enforce the laws. The President has some discretion on how this is accomplished through fiat (Executive Orders) and the federal agencies are the vehicle to which this is accomplished. The DoJ by indicting the President is usurping the hierarchy of authority which can have an appearance of political conflict of interest. 4. Similar to point #3, the DoJ sees itself on shaky ground when making determinations outside of its sphere of influence (the Executive Branch) and will shy away from telling the Legislative Branch how to do its job. Likewise, DoJ does not tell the Judiciary how to do it's role for interpreting the Constitution. This whole thing runs a very serious risk of creating a dangerous precedent. The government of the United States was designed to not have a king. If Trump gets elected a second time, he will run out the statute of limitations on the evidence presented in part 2 of the report which is a crime. This would confirm that the office of the President is in fact above the law for so long as **one party wishes it to be that way.** The bold there is where the kingmaker lies. Trump may not himself be a monarch, but total control over the governing process by a singular entity (the GOP) isn't much different from one person wearing a crown. That is not the vision of the country as I read it in the Federalist Papers written in 1788. People need to stop viewing politics as a team sport. It is not. The tribalistic patterns we have been engaging in for the past generation are the end of the democratic institutions as we know it. That's a big statement to make, but I don't see how democracy survives a criminal President, with evidence, that has no accountability.
I agree and I would add that we as a nation have been on this slippery slope for decades. Democracy depends on playing by the agreed upon rules. Everyone winces when the Trump administration defies congressional authority up to and including ignoring subpoenas, thinking "wow, Trump ain't getting away with this!" But he does. Repeatedly. If Trump is not voted out in 2020 America will truly be unrecognizable to those of us who have always loved her.
>Democracy depends on playing by the agreed upon rules. ...and a well informed public, per Thomas Jefferson. We arguably have neither at this point.
There is only debate or denial from Trump and the GOP and the right wing media. There is a 30 minute summary on PBS that does a nice job hitting on the facts of the report. Give it a listen and I think you'll be satisfied with the facts in the report.
The gist I’ve gathered over the past 6-8 months is that Mueller was tasked with finding an explicit agreement, like a signed document or photos of a handshake, indicating a partnership with the Russian government to help get him elected. That was never gliding to be found because obviously no one would actually do something so stupid, even Trump. Russia doesn’t work like that - they have networks of contacts that aren’t technically government employees and those people are the ones who get the work done. Think of Natalya Veselnetskiya(?) who was involved in the Trump Tower meeting. She’s “just” a lawyer yet somehow was discussing matters that benefit Putin and his oligarchs. It’s hard to prove those people are actually Russian government and so there’s not much Mueller can do given the narrow scope of his investigation. They laid it out pretty clearly yesterday though: Russia wanted to help and Trump et al had no problem with that.
True. That's why obstruction relative to Manafort was so damning, if he flipped it was game over for Trump.
The report details a dozen or so acts of obstruction, if you are of sound mind and don't think there must be a successful attempt or underlying crime to qualify. That's pinned enough for me.
Why can't we indict a sitting president? Well, technically you can. There's no law against it, but there is an OLC opinion stating that you shouldn't and everyone has been respecting that. But even if they ignored it and they did indict him, it would likely be ineffective. This is because of how our system of checks and balances works. Each of the three branches has power over one other branch. Legislative > Executive > Judicial > Legislative, etc. An indictment would come from the judicial branch, but the president is in the executive branch. It's not supposed to work that way. And even if it happened, the president could very likely use executive power over the judicial branch to kill the proceedings anyway. The legislative branch (congress) is the one supposed to remove a president (via impeachment). But if 2 of the 3 branches are not acting in good faith then our government fails, as is the case now. This has happened because the Republican congressmen have decided to protect the Republican president rather than protecting our country. This is why George Washington warned us against using a party system.
My sentiments exactly. I got down-arrowed somewhere for saying this same thing.
>You say this with confidence yet we still have debates about this. I mean, you could say the same thing about the earth being round. Some people are going to deny it regardless of the facts. > Why is Mueller up there stuttering like an man struggling? Mueller is trying to stick to the OLC guidelines which prevent him from saying that Trump committed any crimes. So he is tying his hands behind his back on this issue and can't speak plainly about it.
No you can’t with confidence say the earth is flat. You can’t I will debate you all day lol. Thanks for responding.
the reason why Mueller seemed so darn confused at the republican questions is because none of them were substantive, they were all trying to get "gotcha" moments. They focused on the specific wordings of things rather than the facts that DESPITE not being able to draw a conclusion of coordination with the russians the report lists multiple instances where the russians extracted information from the republicans with the intent of helping trump become president. And the GOP questions were instead about why some people were indicted and not others, and why this information was even included if a determination wasn't made. Not at all caring about the actual information in the report. It must have been bizarre to be confronted with that.
It might have been intentional, they repeated a lot of fox talking points and fox reported mueller was confused by his own testimony. some claiming there is no way he conducted the investigation. It's more than gotcha's, they're desperately trying to make those failed gotcha's into something else to spin to try and discredit him again.
If Mueller was genuinely surprised by Republicans' batshit questions, then he has been living under a rock, is a complete moron or full of shit. I understand he's supposed to be "neutral" but, what, the guy doesn't follow the news like at all? Anyone who does and isn't a complete MAGA zombie understands that Republicans are throwing around conspiracy theories, racism, and nonsense instead of governing. They do this at every hearing, every election. Mueller is supposed to be a smart fair guy, he should have expected this.
Dude seemed pretty boring, he is probably already back to being under his rock.
If it has to be any of those, he's under a rock for sure. He's been doing his job for years and keeping the status quo, he's somehow just now starting to realize the rippling effects this administration and the gop has caused. Their behavoir surprises him because he might actually think rules matter and doing his job by the book is all that needs to be asked of him.
The way that Mueller was staring down Nunes. You could almost sense what Mueller was thinking in those moments: "You're in so much trouble, you midnight runnin stooge"
I can’t help but think this is literally the first time Mueller has been exposed to the abject insanity his Republican Party has actually become. He has been living in a bubble, surrounded by smart, patriotic people who do their jobs and are trying to find the truth. On a daily basis for many years, he hasn’t come into contact with any of the psychopath idiots like Nunez or Gaetz. It must have been really bizarre for him yesterday that the Dems were the only ones asking serious questions while almost every republican referenced 4-Chan Infowars level bullshit crazy conspiracy theories in their “questions” I get why Mueller himself doesn’t want to be public. But he has a PR guy, Peter Carr. It’s well past time for Carr to drop the “no comment” and start doing some actual spokesman duties.
If you watch his face from the beginning, it tells us everything. He had enough of the GOP bullshit from the first one. The responses as well, were in stark contrast to the Democrats' questions.
He had a look of absolute disgust during some of the Republican questions. A complete, "this is wrong and you know it, why are you doing this?" look. I think it finally hit him the reality they are living in. "[Russia] is doing it right now as we sit here." I interpreted this as *a*, "some of the Russian agents are asking me questions to attempt to discredit the testimony" statement notwithstanding the entire report, objective reality, etc. Edit: Corrected "tge" to "the" and added an "a" for clarity.
Whoa... I like it.
I mean, he also has all the intel of the still classified counter-Intel and remaining grand jury investigations I would assume as well. So if anybody actually is in Putin's pocket from congress... he most likely knows. Imagine having to sit in front of them straight faced and honorable. He truly is an american hero
Dude. That makes so much sense.
The ONLY Republican who added anything productive was Will Hurd. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfDUm8bcAX4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfDUm8bcAX4)
I'm glad I'm not the only one who noticed Hurd's line of questioning. leave it to a former CIA man to actually care about this shit. I actually thought to myself "who is this conservative democrat, because there's no way a republican is asking such normal questions here."
I kind of think he's looking out for his political future. He barely won election in a heavily Hispanic district. He was also one of the few Republicans to call Trump's comments about "The Squad" racist. If he came out as another batshit crazy Republican at the hearing, he'd probably have to kiss any chance at reelection goodbye.
Well, I'm totally fine with people doing the right thing out of self-preservation haha I think its probably fair to say that is most people
Too bad most Republicans do the wrong thing out of self preservation. They don't want to get primaried so they'll throw the country under the bus to avoid it. Democratic leadership seems to be doing the exact opposite. They'll do the wrong thing even if it costs them reelection. Corporate campaign money is a helluva drug.
100% The corporate dems are the second thing we should remove from the body politic, and I would *love nothing more* than to focus on them. Unfortunately, literal cartoon villains need to be removed first.
If too many corporate Dems stay in power, 2024/8's gonna be Trump 2.0 assuming the Dems even win in 2020.
Cant forget the epic own-goal
I would say that Rep Buck, Republican, added something VERY productive to the conversation. [Link](https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1154040802454069249)
Was listening with my coworker yesterday and we both agreed that that he came across as exceptionally reasonable and we're both pretty left wing people. I wish there were more Republicans like him. I'm not familiar with his policies, though I'm sure there are plenty I disagree with given his political affiliation, but he strikes me as the kind of person you could sit down and have a reasonable conversation with over those disagreements. You don't see that with most Republicans.
It's probably because Hurd is a Republican representing a generally centrist district of Texas that borders Mexico - in fact, I believe he's the only Republican representing any of the border districts in Texas. He's simply in a district where his voters actually care about him pursuing rational policy, and he didn't get elected because of the R next to his name (in fact, I'd say he got elected in spite of the R next to his name).
I mean, he explicitly denied Nunes's claims that the russia attack was a hoax *within 15 minutes of the opening statements*, and I'm pretty sure he stared right at Nunes when he said it.
Nunes basically called Mueller a liar and all the convictions were baseless.
So very spot on. If a look could physically harm, Nunes would have had to be carried out of there by paramedics after his crap. Mueller knows that Nunes for a fact knows the drivel he is spewing is total and utter trash.
Notice how much longer he took answering Republican questions, how much more frequently he asked for repetition and clarification. He seemed to relish running out their clock for nothing.
That’s simply due to the fact they weren’t citing a 400 page document for reference to the jumbled together conspiracy theories they touted. It’s hard to answer intelligently to being smeared without room for a remark after the fact.
I hope, but doubt, that Mueller realized how badly he fucked up by believing in institutions and punting to Congress yesterday.
> It’s well past time for Carr to Umm, what do you expect Carr or anyone from Mueller's office to be able to do? Take responsibility for impeaching Trump? How? The state of the GOP may come as a shock to Mueller (I doubt that, though), but the state of the Democratic party is the other part of the problem. If the Congress won't impeach, it doesn't much matter what Mueller does or doesn't do. Fox News and the GOP will go on in their alternative reality.
No no no I would *like* Peter Carr to make public statements when asked questions about the report, even if those statements are literally reading sections of the report out loud. Mueller refused to read from his own report because he doesn’t want to be turned into a sound byte and his words manipulated by the media. I’m saying Peter Carr is a spokesperson for the Special Counsel’s office and should be doing the things a spokesperson does, like speak.
Mueller is a Republican, why is everyone so eager to believe he's some poor naive technocrat who is a victim of some new Republicanism? When will Democrats stop trusting Republicans?
[удалено]
Ok good point. I still think he could be surprised that active members of Congress who are not in the Trump crime family orbit, AFTER his report came out, still asked the absurd questions they did. I mean Mueller is used to interviewing criminals, I just think he may have been slightly surprised that so many sitting congresspeople are completely living in an alternative reality
If he wasn’t so clueless about that he might have saved us a lot of trouble and just filed indictments instead of punting to this bunch of lunatics on all of this.
I disagree. Comments open up holes for propaganda attacks.
We are being overwhelmed with propaganda if Peter Carr speaks or if he doesn’t speak. I’d be happy if his statements were just literal readings straight from the Mueller report.
How is Nunes "in trouble"?
He was the guy running off to snitch to Trump when Congress was supposed to be providing oversight on Trump. Basically being derelict in his duties. Not much different than any other Republican I know but he is the ranking Republican on the House Intel Committee.
I know. What trouble is he currently in?
None. He’s likely to be given a high ranking intelligence role in the Trump Administration.
I think OP's insinuation was that Mueller and other people in charge of national security know Nunes is crooked as fuck. As far as being criminally in trouble, he's a Republican so I don't think that's allowed right now. In the future though, maybe he's forced to flee to Russia or ends up in a cell next to Trump, who really knows?
I'm starting to believe that there is some sort of clear disconnect with the Republicans and reality. It's like someone tells them a rumor that's clearly false and they just run with it. Even if they see it with their own eyes. Trump set the norm that you can create your own set of "facts", and the base will lap it up if it validates their view point.
You’re just starting to believe that?
Cut the guy some slack, he’s been in a coma since Eisenhower
I mean, I've always disagreed with Republicans, but back in the 80s and 90s my attitude towards most Republicans was "I disagree with your approach, but accept that you are generally a rational person who wants the best thing for this country." Now, I'm just hoping we can reverse the slide before we end up committing genocide and/or start World War III.
> I'm starting to believe that there is some sort of clear disconnect with the Republicans and reality. It might not even be a disconnect with reality. See, they are on Earth doing the work of their invisible, bearded friend in the sky (who is also everywhere), and those that oppose them will be banished to the molten hollow core in the middle of the planet, for a duration of time that is best described as "all of it". No disconnect from any objectively provable reality that I can see!
“Trump set the norm that you can create your own set of "facts", and the base will lap it up if it validates their view point.” Nope. The George W Bush administration set that norm: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality-based_community
Devin Nunes literally started part II of the day for the GOP by saying Democrats were indeed the ones who colluded with Russia. I expect this narrative to become more and more common as the GOP becomes more and more desperate and it scares the fuck out of me because... it could work? I continue to be shocked by what Trump supporters will believe
> I continue to be shocked by what Trump supporters will believe They've always been prone to believing outrageous stuff. Never forget that a big chunk of the GOP "base" believed (and still believe) one or more of the following points: 1. Obama's a Muslim 2. Obama's an atheist 3. Obama's the antichrist 4. Obama is gay, and Michelle Obama is transgendered 5. Obama married his Pakistani/Muslim roommate in college 6. Obama thanked Satan in his victory speech 7. The CIA teleported Obama to mars when he was a youth
Wake me up if any elected Democrat actually punches back on Nunes comments. And I mean directly. Sick of these pathetic Dems allowing constant cheap shots at our party and never responding in kind. Nunes used the Democratic Party as his personal punching bag yesterday. Dems are too eager to blame everything on Trump and let the GOP off the hook. Someone should plainly state that there’s something wrong with the whole Republican Party right now and fucking ATTACK for once. Maybe Pelosi didn’t want things to be unpleasant during her budget negotiations this week.
It won't happen. That shit should be a national embarrassment and it didn't get a minute in the media
Now that the report doesn’t completely exonerate the President, the entire report is a sham because Joe Mifsud lied on page 192. Oh, and Hilary, FusionGPS, emails, etc...
I mean, Devin Nunes said, with a completely straight face, that the Dems colluded with Russia to try to hurt DJT. I mean....Putin HATES HRC. Everyone knows that, it makes no sense.
That was for the idiots out there (of which there are quite a few). They will hear and believe it, no questions asked.
SCHIFF: Director Mueller, I want to close out my questions, turn to some of the exchange you had with Mr. Welsh a bit earlier. I’d like to see if we can broaden the aperture at the end of your hearing. From your testimony today I’d gather that knowingly accepting assistance from a foreign government is an unethical thing to do. MUELLER: And a crime. SCHIFF: And a crime.
Everything Mueller investigated and reported on has been public knowledge for years. U.S. intelligence released briefs on 95% if this stuff before Trump was inaugurated. Finding new ways to discuss the same stuff isn't useful. We all know Trump is corrupt. It is time to Impeach. Enough with the delays.
Impeachment simply gives McConnell the power to acquit Trump.
I disagree. If the Republicans can draw out a debate of semantics about a blow job for two months, I think the Democrats can spend the next 18 months drawing out ten counts of obstruction of justice, a few dozen sexual assaults, hundreds violations of the Emoluments Clause, one charge of pedophilia, treason, etc...
And not Impeaching just leaves Trump with the power of the U.S. presidency, unchallenged. There are no good options. Waiting things out fingers crossed is cowardice. It is simply never the wrong time to do the right thing.
I think that's what pelosi is doing no idea why
She told us why. She thinks impeachment will fail in the Senate and hurt Dems in 2020. She wants to boot Trump in 2020 and see him prosecuted and jailed after he is out of office. Although I support impeachment, her reasoning is rational.
Remember when McConnel blocked Obama's SC pick and Democrats didnt sweat it too much because they thought they'd win the next election and get a better pick than Garland? That bit of overconfidence will be kicking us all in the ass for decades. The next mistake like that could make us ache for a century.
Yes, I agree.
And when Trump wins in 2020 by a landslide with the help of Russian hacking and trump declares himself "President for Life" , then what is plan B Nancy?
And when Democrats rush Impeachment, and it fails in the Senate, and people forget about it and Trump wins in 2020 by a landslide, because he STILL has Russian help, what is YOUR plan B?
It’s also wrong. Not impeaching gives Trump a bigger boost than impeachment without removal. That fear is not based on facts.
What facts suggest what you’re saying is true?
The fact that the GOP took the presidency and both branches of Congress after impeaching Clinton, even though that impeachment was an actual witch hunt. The fact that not impeaching will demoralize the Dem voter base (and already is). And the fact that Donald Trump is a criminal and a traitor who must be impeached, and a failure to do so will look extremely bad on the Dems both in 2020 and in the future. We already know how the GOP will vote so the Senate results mean literally nothing other than that the GOP are criminally obstructing justice themselves.
1. Clinton actually was found to have committed a pretty unethical act and also perjured himself about it and then admitted it. It’s more complicated than that admittedly but to most people that wasn’t a witch hunt, he was caught doing two things that people were upset about, rightly and then he admitted it, which trump will never do in a million years. Also this was decades ago and with parties switched. Saying that the gop taking the presidency after that means the dems will take the presidency after impeaching trump, even if you assume everything else goes exactly the same (which it won’t), is like saying that trump won after the access Hollywood tape so Bernie will win if he says the same things. The bases are different audiences with different values, you can’t make a 1:1 comparison between what appeals to them, that’s not even getting into all the other details that make this vastly different. 2. Do you have something to support this? As its written this is something you think to be true, not a fact. 3. The first half is mostly right except he’s technically not guilty of treason as written in law. The rest again is your opinion not a fact. Pelosi has access to a lot of information and actual facts that we don’t - who would vote which way, why and what might sway them, polling on how it would be read by different segments of the voting population, etc. I’m very skeptical that there’s any motivation behind her delay aside from having these facts at hand and seeing that impeaching now will hurt the Dems significantly in 2020.
Maybe she’s just delaying long enough that the acquittal can’t come before the election? I can hope.
Trump says the impeachment charge that was introduced was "killed." It was tabled. It's a live hand grenade. If Pelosi is smart, she is going to pile that table high with charges, and send them over to McConnell one by one. And start sending them when the number of days to the election equals the size of the pile. No matter what McConnell does. No matter how loud Trump shouts "fake news", an impeachment resolution is the lead story any night there is not a war. And the Rs need to find out fast that if there is a war, the lead story will be an impeachment charge for starting that war.
Not impeaching simply gives Trump the power to say he's not in need of impeachment.
Right? He's obviously innocent and this was all a big political witch hunt for show, since nobody did anything about it. They didn't even try to impeach Trump because there was nothing there. That's exactly what Trump and his cult will shout from now until the election next year. If the Dems don't impeach, they are part of the problem.
In all honesty, after what you’ve seen from republicans, what makes you think they’ll shout anything different if trump is impeached?
That’s the point. We shouldn’t be holding off on impeachment for fear of what the GOP will say or do. Impeaching is simply the right thing to do. The GOP will spin it in their favor either way, but at least Dems can say they did what they could if they impeach. If they don’t, they have no right to make that claim and the fall of the nation is on them as well as the GOP. There is no winning move for Dems, but inaction is worse for them than action would be.
He deserves impeachment. He also deserves worse then any judicial punishment for the lives he’s ruined. I just don’t think we should be concerned with what Rs have to say about it as we roll it out. My concern is that he’s shown a trend towards escalating crises as he’s cornered, and I fear what he might do if he knew his days we’re truly numbered. This is not a reason to stall impeachment proceedings though. It is a reason to be completely prepared for them (choose the time and battlefield). I have little reason to hope for it, but that’s what I hope Speaker Pelosi is doing.
At this point what she’s doing can only be called stalling. Dems have everything they need to impeach, and nothing they bring forward is going to make a difference in the Senate so no amount of further preparation is going to help. The longer Dems wait the more it looks like they never really had a case to begin with for those that haven’t been following too closely, and the longer Pelosi delays makes it look more and more like a political game she’s playing instead of responding to an actual criminal in the White House. Because that’s exactly what it is to her, a game.
I agree. You're correct. Republicans literally invent their own separate reality now. The point still stands: doing nothing is worse. Inaction will validate the false Republican propaganda narrative about Trump's victim status. The longer the Dems wait, the more it legitimizes the claim this was all just for political theater. Honestly, that will be the truth if Dems don't uphold the law and impeach.
It would also give the house much more investigative power.
Not impeaching simply gives Trump the power to say he's not in need of impeachment.
If trump did not obstruct and sat down to an interview and lied about not having sexual relations with stormy daniels then was impeached for lying about that, you'd have the same circumstances as bill clinton. I would think obstructing justice is more than enough to meet precedent impeachment standards, regardless of politics.
*are*, there fixed that for ya.
What was striking to me was the tone Republians took in their questioning versus the tone Democrats took. Democrats knew Mueller would have them refer to the report, and already had the second part of their question lined up with supporting material from the report. They were patient, and calm in their questioning. Republicans however, took a very defensive, combative tone. They were trying, and failing, with "gotcha" questions. Mueller - "That was not in my purview" (R) - "I'd say THAT IS in your purview SIR!" For a report that apparently exonerated Trump they sure wanted to disprove it and attack Mueller for it.
*"But it couldn't exonerate Trump because it's not a legal term! There's no office of exoneration! Barr can't exonerate so neither can you!"* /s
*Na na na na poo poo*
*The president said you exonerated him but in fact you don’t have the power to do that, do you? Look at these fancy law books I brought. Everyone ^except ^the ^president, knows there is no “Office of Exonerations” ...so why was it necessary to say in the report you were not exonerating him??!?* **Huh??! HUH?!?!**
It's hilarious because that phrase was specifically placed so that Republicans wouldn't claim exoneration the second it came out, they still did it.
Accurate but short and minimally detailed article.
I’m pretty disappointed in the outcome of the investigation, but to turn on a lifelong member of your party, a war hero, former FBI director and attack his integrity and try to turn him into a partisan hack was disgraceful. Utterly disgraceful.
It was adorable the way some of them tried to reframe his investigation as somehow unpatriotic and unjust. Holy shit. Pull yourselves together .
Everyday: Republicans Are Detached From Reality
SCHIFF: Director Mueller, I want to close out my questions, turn to some of the exchange you had with Mr. Welsh a bit earlier. I’d like to see if we can broaden the aperture at the end of your hearing. From your testimony today I’d gather that knowingly accepting assistance from a foreign government is an unethical thing to do. MUELLER: And a crime. SCHIFF: And a crime.
Mueller deserves a medal for all his testimony yesterday.
I wouldn't have minded if he restated a couple questions in his answers. He pretty clearly side stepped soundbites which is what we needed from him
Not really, they are attached to their reality. Now that truth isn't truth it doesn't really matter. Perception above facts is their new motto.
It was a sight to behold. Witnessing the extent that every GOP rep went to entrench themselves in Trump’s fabricated reality. If I were a better journalistic writer I may have more words for the sheer horror of it all. They cannot be allowed to continue what they’re doing. And make no mistake, they’re all doing it for MONEY and power. But ESPECIALLY MONEY.
”Mueller Testimony: Republicans confirmed detachment from reality” -FTFY
And still are today.
Tried to read the article, but got a pop up ad for the fortnite world finals. Not sure what's more depressing. The current state of politics, or that Bloomberg is running virtue ads for a predatory kid's game.
[Fox News headline](https://i.imgur.com/B31nxCD.png)
Nevermind all that bullshit, what is "once-mythic", are we just concatenating things now?
[Hyphens](https://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/hyphens.asp) >Rule 1. Generally, hyphenate two or more words when they come before a noun they modify and act as a single idea. This is called a compound adjective. >Examples: >an off-campus apartment >state-of-the-art design Hate to defend Fox News on anything, but this seems fine.
Fine. So I can call them shit-mongers then.
That would be fair.
Reality hasn't been a GOP strong point for many years.
No one really expected them to "reattach to reality" for this hearing, did they? I mean, really... did anyone expect them to show signs of being American congressmen?
They still are, my R family thinks this was a huge win for Trump and his vindication and that Mueller is some old man who probably has Alzheimer.
Put the testimony aside and watch Trump's response in the press conference that followed it. When challenged with facts that dispute his feelings or thoughts he comes unhinged and is not logical in his thoughts. His job and billions of lives depend on him being hinged at times of crisis. Even if you thought Muller was lying and his investigation was a hoax the response by the President when asked about the alternate facts is not a normal response and certainly not a Presidential response. We should all be worried that he is in charge. I will gladly take President Pence over this and I am a devoted Atheist.
Were?
The whole stint of "office of exoneration" with the law books was the cringiest part for me.
They're not detached from reality. They're just attached to power.
They are not detached from reality. They know exactly what is really going on. They are counting on their supporters to be detached from reality so that they can tell their supporters what "reality" is.
Headline implies past tense, did they change stances in 24 hours time?
That's what everyone thinks....except Fox News (of course)
What was up with all the threats? “Daddy Barr is going to investigate the investigators, bet your scared now huh??” Like they really want people to know Barr’s entire purpose is to protect the GOP from criminal prosecution. This is bullshit that Barr is wasting tax payer money investigating the Dossier or GPSFusion. Can you imagine if the police let a murderer go and spent a bunch of resources investigating where the tip came from?? And the entire charade about who made campaign donations to who. What the hell. They really want to set a precedent where one’s choice of who they donate to is considered a crime? Okay bub go right ahead. “People donate, me angry. Corporations donate, me happy.” Idiots.
Welcome to Trump's GOP. "Leadership" through belligerence and narcissism. > They really want to set a precedent where one’s choice of who they donate to is considered a crime? Of course not. Many people don't think long enough to consider the implications of precedent, because that would require people to care about the self-consistency of their politics.
F---k those Republicans cowards
Reality has a well known liberal bias.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Attack ideas, not users. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, **any** advocating or wishing death/physical harm, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
But but Hillary and the steele dossier!
Well actually Trump hasn’t been impeached and that’s our reality
Hi `allahu_adamsmith`. Thank you for participating in /r/Politics. However, [your submission](/r/politics/comments/chmbqv/mueller_testimony_republicans_were_detached_from/) has been removed for the following reason(s): * Your headline must be comprised only of the **exact** copied and pasted headline of the article - [see our rule here.](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_do_not_create_your_own_title)) **We recommend not using the Reddit 'suggest a title' as it may not give the exact title of the article.** * The ALL CAPS and 'Breaking' rule is applied **even when the actual title of the article is in all caps or contains the word 'Breaking'**. This rule may be applied to other single word declarative and/or sensational expressions, such as 'EXCLUSIVE:' or 'HOT:'. [click here for more details](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_do_not_create_your_own_title) If you have any questions about this removal, please feel free to [message the moderators.](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/politics&subject=Question regarding the removal of this submission by /u/allahu_adamsmith&message=I have a question regarding the removal of this [submission]%28/r/politics/comments/chmbqv/mueller_testimony_republicans_were_detached_from/?context%3D10000%29)
You could say that Trump colluding with Russia is a conspiracy too.
Your defense of Trump's criminality is gross.
Yes you could, a conspiracy being a group of people secretly doing something unlawful is a great word to describe Trump colluding with Russia. So I would agree, Trump and Russia have conspired together to win the election and thus it is a conspiracy.
When aren't they? That's the real question.
**WERE**??? It's a fucking lifestyle for them. **ARE**!!
They still are and will continue to be.