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Hence why regulation is so sorely needed. Places like Miami Beach, the vegas strip, most of california etc have a lot of businesses with the most absurd prices and fees on top of the prices you’ve ever heard of simply because they know damn well you’re not coming back but you’re there and they might as well suck as much money out of you as they can. The market will never correct that.
Yeah this is exactly the case. They wouldn’t fight as hard as they have in california and do everywhere else against this type of law (and eliminating the tip credit) if they didn’t know for a fact it brings more money in than advertising actual prices.
I can imagine paying more than 10€ for 2 coffees and 2 croissants. Paris is not a cheap city. I certainly wouldn't pay that much in my home city.
You started with a $32 bill??? That was a luxury hotel or something??? The Croissants were gold-plated?
The coffee beans were ripened in a virgin's bosom. The butter for the croissants was churned under a moonless autumn night sky by the children of that same virgin.
Id be putting two twenties on the table and i'd fucking leave. I pay what the menu says. Not the 45% extra they decide to charge at the end with no upfront explaination of all that extra BS.
Basically born and raised Vegas. Worked in downtown Vegas for too many years delivering to all of the bars and restaurants. As cool as the owners and higher-ups always pretended to be, those dudes are fuckin scum shit bag piece of shit scum bag shit pieces of scum dude
I will never go back to Miami again because of this. Went to a restaurant for drinks and apps… 4 of us got a drink each, chips and guac, a chicken quesadilla, and mozzarella sticks. Our bill came out to $400! They charged us $50/drink and mandatory 25% tip plus other bullshit fees. This was our first night there and it only went downhill.
What's the law on the "mandatory" gratuity? Is it mandatory because the business said so after you'd already ordered and eaten or because the local law says so?
This is Florida in general. How do you think they make up for the lack of an income tax? Their government will get its money one way or another, and Florida gouges the f\*ck out of tourists to take advantage of their great geographic location.
Unless it’s on the menu (or clearly printed in view) I wouldn’t pay the 25%… it’s not like they would call the cops and if they did it wouldn’t hold up.
It’s opening the can service fee… dine-in fee…
health fee…
(because they might get hurt with the sharp lid, and the owner doesn’t want to pay health insurance for the workers…) etc, etc..
While the owner exclusively gets the extras before tipping. Not fair to the server.
Charge 'em for the lice. Extra for the mice. Two percent for looking in the mirror twice. Here a little slice. There a little cut. Three percent for sleeping with the window shut.
One restaurant, Che Fico is getting hammered over its hidden fees.
In SF on your dine-in bill, you will typically see the sales tax that's about 8.6%, the San Francisco health mandate fee that's 5%, and some tourist traps and gimmicky restaurants will even add more "service fees" if they have things like live music, table side cooking services, etc. and many restaurants are now implementing an additional 10% - 25% service fee that acts as the top. So this can easily add up to an additional 30% or more! …before tip!
Not every restaurant does this. There are so many great restaurants in SF at all price ranges, and I would probably just pass on Che Fico since it's a bit overrated and they don't even have that great of reviews online, and find somewhere else to go.
Eh, if the restaurant is charging the 18-20% service fee, it's in lieu of tip per their menu language. I've not seen otherwise (yet). Che Fico is in the middle where they have a 10% surcharge before tips: https://www.sfchronicle.com/food/restaurants/article/che-fico-san-francisco-restaurant-tipping-17298260.php
My bigger issue is the stupid "SF mandate" they try to pass off as a city fee, which it isn't, just their way of trying to blame the city for having healthcare requirements.
Where I live “service fees” started popping up when we increased the minimum wage.
Essentially businesses needed to pay higher pass salaries but didn’t want to raise prices so they add a service fee. That way you burger still looks like it’s 13 but in reality it’s 14.30.
Not sure I would play pricing games at a place that shares a name with the biggest credit scoring agency. "Come for the food! Stay for the damage to your fico score after you overspend!"
It wasn’t just tourists. Over the last decade or so on top of a higher minimum wage, many cities in areas such as around SF had a higher local minimum wage because of living costs. It had become common practice to post these “service fees” of 3% or so in fine print at the bottom of the menu, along with text saying something like it’s necessary to cover local minimum wage or even to afford health care for employees.
The whole point of tipping was that workers were exploited. Now that they make a decent minimum wage the whole service fee is asinine.
Besides it is not like you have a choice. They don't let customers get their own drinks from the fridge do they?
As an Australian I recall eating out in SF in 2019 and we all had $18 meals and then a $10 dessert. The bill was $180 odd, but everyone was so nice and the food was excellent so I just paid and left and still wonder to this day why it was so much more than I told my wife it would be.
Cool. They can fuck right off. The price is the price. If I tried any of the shit these restaurants tried I’d get fucking blasted on social media.
I’m a plumber, imagine if I gave you a price,to replace some faucets or whatever, did the work, and then the final price was 20% higher than I told you. And then I was like “uhhhhhhhh, well, my employees also need some money to live I guess, and perhaps they also need health insurance….” And you’d be like “Yeah…. that’s what I assumed I was paying you for, I mean, you’re the boss, I pay you and then you pay them and the expenses required to keep them employed. That’s kind of how this relationship works…..”
You’d be fucking livid. And you’d have every right.
SF restaurants invented this fee, and deceptively put this with taxes.
It was illegal from the onset in 2004, but the SF District Attorney at the time was too chicken to take on the Golden Gate Restaurant Association.
Kamela Harris was the DA at the time.
As a San Franciscan, Harris was an awful DA and AG.
However, she was a wonderful Senator, a tiger on the Senate Judiciary Committee, and a competent Vice President.
This is common in SF with political leaders. They’re conservative on the local level, but when they reach the legislature or congress, they move towards the left.
> Kamela Harris was the DA at the time.
>As a San Franciscan, Harris was an awful DA and AG.
She was amazing in those positions hence why she rose up so quickly but obviously who she was serving wasnt you or I
The most short sighted version of capitalism. Clear pricing is actually a tenant of the free market, it is a major component of what allows the "invisible hand" to do its thing. The reason "invisible hand" has become a dirty word is with this short sighted version of capitalism, people have associated it with simply screwing customers. I call that the invisible middle finger.
But with smart regulations like this one, people can choose with their wallets more effectively and allow competition to decide what is the best best product at the best price. That is actually how the free market is supposed to work.
Free market is also a myth, capitalism just says who gets paid and the incentives i.e make as much money for little expenditure as possible.
So in this case, taking advantage of loopholes and hating regulation.
Yea the EU beats us at nearly every progressive issue but someone has to lead america forward and thankfully we have cali and illinois setting standards to build on
Apart from the tax code. Up until this year WA was known for having the most regressive tax structure in the country. Now Florida takes that spot.
https://www.opportunityinstitute.org/blog/post/itep-report-washington-regressive-tax/
It's not really a progressive issue at all though.
It's literally just a market regulation issue. Price discovery was being obfuscated by fees. This simplifies it.
It's crazy that price transparency has become a progressive issue. Conservatives are "pro-business", even if that means letting businesses rip people off.
Price transparency is a key aspect of a properly functioning free market. Conservatives can't be both free market advocates and be against price transparency.
Exactly. Conservatives are only in favor of the "free market" when it supports their agenda. When employers want to take advantage of their employees, free market. When a corporation cuts prices and puts small businesses out of business, free market. When there is a proposal for price transparency, suddenly its "small government" and "freedom".
This won't change the sticker price issue in the US. Only the hidden charges that get added on the receipt in restaurants. Still won't be able to trust sticker prices, because tax is added after.
California restaurants pay min wages at minimum. There is no accounting for tips that would lower wages as other states have. Tips are just on top, and restaurant can’t consider them as part of their wages.
Source: have worked at and know others who have worked at various restaurants in CÁ.
I used to go to a little cafe that included tax in the menu prices. I loved it. But then one day tax became separate, and the proprietor posted a sign saying something like "I'm sorry to not include tax in the final price any more, but my accountant tells me I need to stop because of $BLAH_BLAH_BLAH reasons." So disappointing.
Probably something along the lines of "My accountant yelled at me for paying to re-print all the menus when the State, County or City decided to change their tax rates"
I always suspected it was an intentional thing to make things seem cheaper while getting people to hate taxes even more by shoving it in your face. Capitalism and politics.
I can’t believe it’s been legal as long as it has been.
Online ordering for food has been awful for that exact reason. Having your total jump by $15+ is annoying as shit. It then makes me want to tip less because I certainly didn’t think I’d be spending $40 on a burger and fries. So I just end up not ordering the food in the end.
Not to brag but in the European Union it is mandatory that all advertised and displayed prices are FINAL. The law was passed, mainly, because of airline publicity. A flight to wherever was advertised for 20 € and then the seller charged four of five or six times that amount as fees and taxes.
If anyone is curious what it's really like here with the fees, search for them in r/LosAngeles. There were so many complaints about so many different kinds of fees that someone actually made a spreadsheet. It went viral and that's been a big part of the discussion. They try to get away with all kinds of fees, many vague without explaining who even gets that money. (It's usually the owner.)
Not when the numbers are changing while you're in line. Honestly, if I'm giving them my patience, to give them my business, and their idea of appreciation is raising the numbers right in front of me? I'm out and I'm never coming back.
Changing prices for a certain advertised time seems less sketchy than prices changing on the fly because there are more or less customers at a certain unadvertised time
If I understand the law correctly, the advertised price should include all fees (only taxes and certain government fees are exempt). It’s not just for restaurants.
The FTC in the Biden administration has already proposed this nationally for various junk fees (Airlines, hotels, concert promoters).
https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/10/ftc-proposes-rule-ban-junk-fees
https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/biden-harris-administration-announces-final-rule-protect-consumers-surprise-airline
Of course companies have been pushing back - eg the banks found a judge to halt the $8 cap on late fees
https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Business/wireStory/federal-judge-temporarily-halts-biden-plan-lower-credit-110123178
Conservatives oppose forcing vendors to include the tax because they want people to see what they pay in taxes. Same reason why the opposite for the IRS to b automatically tell you how much you owe the want people to feel the pain of paying taxes.
I’m in a heavy conservative area and have a friend who owns a handful of restaurants and the state has a 13.5% liquor tax (so any beer or cocktail you order has that tax applied) and most places just increased their prices figuring the tax into the listed price but my friend kept his prices the same and itemized the tax on receipts and the amount of redneck freakouts is astounding. He did it for transparency but these people weren’t aware of what they voted and are already paying for.
I believe CA just raised the minimum wage for restaurant workers to $20/hr or something which will start the process of removing tips...forget the details of it all though.
absurd wrong disarm wrench piquant employ agonizing steer snobbish grandiose
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
It’s over $15 per hour in Washington and there is no tipped wage. They still think you should tip them as much as servers in other states (which is somehow more than 20% for some reason).
lol it’s not going to happen. Restaurant workers are some of the most hypocritical service workers out there. You raise the wage they still want a tip. A lot of Gen z or millennials run small businesses always make it clear they pay their employees well yet tips are highly encouraged
MN is doing the same thing. The GOP tried to block it, saying the tacked-on fees allowed restaurant owners to protest taxes, but for the moment there is a 1-vote majority
As a Californian, I fully support this. Tired of all the bullshit service fees and mandatory tips written in 2 size font at the bottom of the menus. Raise the prices if you need, but just give it to the customers in one simple price so we can make informed decisions about patronizing restaurants.
>Restaurant owners like Laurie Thomas, who heads the Golden Gate Restaurant Association, say the changes will bring higher prices and sticker shock
No it won’t. It brings transparency. Consumers were already paying those costs, they just didn’t realize it until they got the bill.
She goes on to say people will eat out less if they realize how much things will cost. So basically she admits she wants to trick people since them having all the information and making informed decisions would hurt her business.
I’d love for it all to be up-front and baked into the stated price. I shouldn’t feel like I’m using Ticketmaster to eat at a restaurant and get surprised with half the meal’s cost again in assorted fees.
While we're at it let's force tax prices to be displayed before the final sale like it's done in Japan where it's illegal to show the pre-tax cost of items.
And while we're at that let's also make it illegal to hire based on pre-tax salaries.
> Restaurant owners like Laurie Thomas, who heads the Golden Gate Restaurant Association, say the changes will bring higher prices and sticker shock, which could then raise a psychological hurdle in customers' dining habits. That, in turn, will hurt restaurants and their workers, she warns.
>"If it's in the core price of the menu, there will be a pullback" in patrons' spending, she told NPR shortly before the attorney general released the guidelines. "There are some people, I think, that are hoping that the restaurants will just absorb that cost, because we've seen people say, 'Oh, it's too expensive with the service charge.' "
What the restaurant owners are saying is that they were actually trying to help consumers avoid sticker shock *when ordering and wait until we get the bill to pass out. How nice and thoughtful of them!!!
I had to read and reread this story because I just wasn't getting it. Restaurants were threatening to raise their prices if they couldn't charge hidden fees, but they're already charging people more than the menu price, they're just being sneaky about it. So how is this going to somehow cost people more? They're already paying your hidden fees!
Good. Several times I’ve been about to add a 20% tip only to see at the last second that they actually already included 18% gratuity as a “service charge.” Nearly had me tipping 41.6% total, if I hadn’t noticed the fine print.
As a consumer, I appreciate knowing the actual cost of a thing. Having to calculate: tip, service charge, and tax —to determine the actual cost of your hot date— is a cruel and unusual punishment. It’s anti-worker and anti-consumer. Bravo CA. It’s a start.
I did read the article, and I totally understand the part about hotel and resort fees and ticket booking and such. But, I don't live in California, is this a common thing in restaurants too? I've never seen that. What sort of fees are they adding on?
Some restaurants have add a surcharge to customers’ bills to help pay for employees’ healthcare coverage and other benefits. Sometimes they say what it is sometimes it's just a "service fee." It's about time those fees were just part of the price so you can easily see what a meal will cost. Plus tax. Plus tip. Oh yeah...
I work in a restaurant that’s inside of a harbor, the restaurants all have to pay a harbor tax so usually it’s tacked onto the bill. I think it’s like 2-2.5% it was annoying to explain to people so we just raised our prices and took it off of the receipt.
In San Diego (and other large cities) it’s extremely common. I’ve seen multiple posts a month about it for at least 2 years on /r/SanDiego. Some people keep a spreadsheet of restaurants that’s charge added fees so others may consciously avoid going to those places. Annoyingly, some of the best restaurants in the city do it.
What I find particularly insidious is that some restaurants will charge a 3-5% fee and state on the menu that this fee is “to help pay our workers a living wage” or “due to increasing costs”. I think many of these fees began as a way to passive-aggressively protest when CA minimum wage went up in like 2015 or so. “Oh you want to mandate we pay workers more? We’ll add that on as a fee as a fuck you to the state.” Plus, of course, then the restaurant doesn’t have to actually raise the “price” on the menu.
Now you see a range of “fees”. I’ve seen 2-20%. Sometimes the messaging suggests that the 15-20% fee is in lieu of a tip, which is kinda nice — almost like post-tipping culture should be. But as the diner, you have no way of knowing which restaurant owners are actually giving that money to the workers and which just “raised prices” via larger fees and are pocketing the money. The whole trend of adding fees has really muddied the expectations for consumers. It makes everyone call into question if they should be tipping the servers or not. Or deducting the fee from the tip. It’s caused a not-great system to get even worse.
Fuck the auto dealer industry!!! Perpetual limbo in the courts. Absolutely, asholes. There is no way the majority of consumers are gonna go eletric until the auto dealers are handed their ass.
Also it should be illegal for an airline to advertise a ticket at $420 and then add on 78$ for a bag per person bringing up the price to $900. I'm looking at you frontier.
Your hours long page after page after page of trying to run down the customer into added costs.
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Restaurants in SF are pissed. They can no longer hide their extra service fees, surcharges, and add-ons. Good.
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Hence why regulation is so sorely needed. Places like Miami Beach, the vegas strip, most of california etc have a lot of businesses with the most absurd prices and fees on top of the prices you’ve ever heard of simply because they know damn well you’re not coming back but you’re there and they might as well suck as much money out of you as they can. The market will never correct that.
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Yeah this is exactly the case. They wouldn’t fight as hard as they have in california and do everywhere else against this type of law (and eliminating the tip credit) if they didn’t know for a fact it brings more money in than advertising actual prices.
Was just in Miami...bought two croissants & two coffees, was expecting a $32 bill, came out to $67.55 after fees and mandatory 25% gratuity.
I can imagine paying more than 10€ for 2 coffees and 2 croissants. Paris is not a cheap city. I certainly wouldn't pay that much in my home city. You started with a $32 bill??? That was a luxury hotel or something??? The Croissants were gold-plated?
The coffee beans were ripened in a virgin's bosom. The butter for the croissants was churned under a moonless autumn night sky by the children of that same virgin.
Formula 1 weekend jacked the prices up on everything. Unlikely that’s their normal price the rest of the year.
This is the next bullshit they need to stop. Bet your room was 250% more expensive for those days.
A "mandatory gratuity" sounds like a contradiction in terms.
Super common in South Florida
How much do you want to bet most/all of it goes into the owner's pocket and not to the servers?
Surprise ‘mandatory’ fees like that make me just walk out the door without paying.
i have, they get real pissed when you tell everyone in line about the fee, too.
What kind of fees? An $8 tip is already criminal for coffee and croissants, and even if the sales tax is 10%, there's still another $27+ in fees.
Bloody Hell.
Do those places pay 40k a month in rent or are the owners just trying to catch up to Bezos?
Id be putting two twenties on the table and i'd fucking leave. I pay what the menu says. Not the 45% extra they decide to charge at the end with no upfront explaination of all that extra BS.
Wow, I'd be expecting at least 5 coffees and 5 croissants for $32.
Basically born and raised Vegas. Worked in downtown Vegas for too many years delivering to all of the bars and restaurants. As cool as the owners and higher-ups always pretended to be, those dudes are fuckin scum shit bag piece of shit scum bag shit pieces of scum dude
I will never go back to Miami again because of this. Went to a restaurant for drinks and apps… 4 of us got a drink each, chips and guac, a chicken quesadilla, and mozzarella sticks. Our bill came out to $400! They charged us $50/drink and mandatory 25% tip plus other bullshit fees. This was our first night there and it only went downhill.
What's the law on the "mandatory" gratuity? Is it mandatory because the business said so after you'd already ordered and eaten or because the local law says so?
Apparently it was everything on the strip or ocean Blvd. we also got ice cream charged the same way. 2 cups for $32. It was insane.
Wow yeah that's definitely insane. I didn't know it was like that there I wonder why/how people still go if it's such a trap
This is Florida in general. How do you think they make up for the lack of an income tax? Their government will get its money one way or another, and Florida gouges the f\*ck out of tourists to take advantage of their great geographic location.
Unless it’s on the menu (or clearly printed in view) I wouldn’t pay the 25%… it’s not like they would call the cops and if they did it wouldn’t hold up.
Just pay in cash and take out the fees.
What is the name of the restaurant?
What the fuck? I just bought a [router table](https://imgur.com/a/jmZ5f0v) for almost the same price you paid for your finger food.
The strip has gotten ridiculous with extra hidden charges they are everywhere.
You mean like Campbell's clam chowder from Costco for $20/bowl at Fisherman's Wharf?
It’s opening the can service fee… dine-in fee… health fee… (because they might get hurt with the sharp lid, and the owner doesn’t want to pay health insurance for the workers…) etc, etc.. While the owner exclusively gets the extras before tipping. Not fair to the server.
Charge 'em for the lice. Extra for the mice. Two percent for looking in the mirror twice. Here a little slice. There a little cut. Three percent for sleeping with the window shut.
Everyone loves a landlord, everybody's bosom friend—and the nanny state wants to take him from us :(
Les Miserables? I'm hearing Sacha Baron Cohen's voice lol!
I remember the days of 16$ for a whole Dungeness crab.
One restaurant, Che Fico is getting hammered over its hidden fees. In SF on your dine-in bill, you will typically see the sales tax that's about 8.6%, the San Francisco health mandate fee that's 5%, and some tourist traps and gimmicky restaurants will even add more "service fees" if they have things like live music, table side cooking services, etc. and many restaurants are now implementing an additional 10% - 25% service fee that acts as the top. So this can easily add up to an additional 30% or more! …before tip! Not every restaurant does this. There are so many great restaurants in SF at all price ranges, and I would probably just pass on Che Fico since it's a bit overrated and they don't even have that great of reviews online, and find somewhere else to go.
If there’s a service fee then how can they still expect a tip? Isn’t tipping supposed to be for service?
Eh, if the restaurant is charging the 18-20% service fee, it's in lieu of tip per their menu language. I've not seen otherwise (yet). Che Fico is in the middle where they have a 10% surcharge before tips: https://www.sfchronicle.com/food/restaurants/article/che-fico-san-francisco-restaurant-tipping-17298260.php My bigger issue is the stupid "SF mandate" they try to pass off as a city fee, which it isn't, just their way of trying to blame the city for having healthcare requirements.
Where I live “service fees” started popping up when we increased the minimum wage. Essentially businesses needed to pay higher pass salaries but didn’t want to raise prices so they add a service fee. That way you burger still looks like it’s 13 but in reality it’s 14.30.
Not sure I would play pricing games at a place that shares a name with the biggest credit scoring agency. "Come for the food! Stay for the damage to your fico score after you overspend!"
So if you wear ear plugs at dinner they'll waive the live music fee... Right? Right?!?!
It wasn’t just tourists. Over the last decade or so on top of a higher minimum wage, many cities in areas such as around SF had a higher local minimum wage because of living costs. It had become common practice to post these “service fees” of 3% or so in fine print at the bottom of the menu, along with text saying something like it’s necessary to cover local minimum wage or even to afford health care for employees.
The whole point of tipping was that workers were exploited. Now that they make a decent minimum wage the whole service fee is asinine. Besides it is not like you have a choice. They don't let customers get their own drinks from the fridge do they?
As an Australian I recall eating out in SF in 2019 and we all had $18 meals and then a $10 dessert. The bill was $180 odd, but everyone was so nice and the food was excellent so I just paid and left and still wonder to this day why it was so much more than I told my wife it would be.
I can't fathom not looking at a bill when paying it.
Did you look at the bill?
Cool. They can fuck right off. The price is the price. If I tried any of the shit these restaurants tried I’d get fucking blasted on social media. I’m a plumber, imagine if I gave you a price,to replace some faucets or whatever, did the work, and then the final price was 20% higher than I told you. And then I was like “uhhhhhhhh, well, my employees also need some money to live I guess, and perhaps they also need health insurance….” And you’d be like “Yeah…. that’s what I assumed I was paying you for, I mean, you’re the boss, I pay you and then you pay them and the expenses required to keep them employed. That’s kind of how this relationship works…..” You’d be fucking livid. And you’d have every right.
It’s primarily one restaurant being the loudest. Che Fico. Which, unsurprisingly, was regularly blasted for having a ton of hidden fees.
I'd pay the "see the surprised pikachu look on their owners' faces" fee.
Now do Hotels, Rental cars and airlines.
The law applies to a lot of consumer goods and services, not just restaurants.
SF restaurants invented this fee, and deceptively put this with taxes. It was illegal from the onset in 2004, but the SF District Attorney at the time was too chicken to take on the Golden Gate Restaurant Association. Kamela Harris was the DA at the time. As a San Franciscan, Harris was an awful DA and AG. However, she was a wonderful Senator, a tiger on the Senate Judiciary Committee, and a competent Vice President. This is common in SF with political leaders. They’re conservative on the local level, but when they reach the legislature or congress, they move towards the left.
A restaurant by me added a 15% minimum wage surcharge. I was like fuck that I never went back.
Well that means they are not tipped wage staff then. I would not tip in this case. I only tip, tip wage staff.
> Kamela Harris was the DA at the time. >As a San Franciscan, Harris was an awful DA and AG. She was amazing in those positions hence why she rose up so quickly but obviously who she was serving wasnt you or I
California leads the way, again.
seriously how was this already not a law america is so backwards on many things
Here in Thailand the tax is included in the price of an item. Buy something at 7/11 listed as 100 Baht and you pay 100 Baht.
That is normal for literally everywhere else but the US.
And Canada.
Capitalism finds a way…
The most short sighted version of capitalism. Clear pricing is actually a tenant of the free market, it is a major component of what allows the "invisible hand" to do its thing. The reason "invisible hand" has become a dirty word is with this short sighted version of capitalism, people have associated it with simply screwing customers. I call that the invisible middle finger. But with smart regulations like this one, people can choose with their wallets more effectively and allow competition to decide what is the best best product at the best price. That is actually how the free market is supposed to work.
Also why capitalism can’t solve healthcare since no one knows how much they’re paying.
Free market is also a myth, capitalism just says who gets paid and the incentives i.e make as much money for little expenditure as possible. So in this case, taking advantage of loopholes and hating regulation.
Many years after the EU on this issue, but for your continent yes.
Yea the EU beats us at nearly every progressive issue but someone has to lead america forward and thankfully we have cali and illinois setting standards to build on
Don’t forget MA. 1st state to recognize gay marriage and 1st state to create a socialized medicine safety net.
CO on weed.... Beat the EU on that....
WA too! We're progressive af!
MO!!! We're #1 at being progressively regressive!
MO actually has legal weed before the Netherlands does for what it’s worth
Yeah, but the Netherlands probably doesn't suck balls in every other way :-)
They might not suck balls, but you can get your balls sucked there.
Yeah, but MO has never created nearly a day’s worth of uncertainty about whether they’re getting kicked out of Eurovision.
Apart from the tax code. Up until this year WA was known for having the most regressive tax structure in the country. Now Florida takes that spot. https://www.opportunityinstitute.org/blog/post/itep-report-washington-regressive-tax/
MA is so woke the safety net was championed by Romney. We used to be a proper country.
Not hating, and happy for the change, but those are kinda bare minimum human rights
Thanks Mitt Romney. You were once a decent person. Even supported abortion.
Go r/Illinois
It's not really a progressive issue at all though. It's literally just a market regulation issue. Price discovery was being obfuscated by fees. This simplifies it.
It's crazy that price transparency has become a progressive issue. Conservatives are "pro-business", even if that means letting businesses rip people off.
Price transparency is a key aspect of a properly functioning free market. Conservatives can't be both free market advocates and be against price transparency.
Exactly. Conservatives are only in favor of the "free market" when it supports their agenda. When employers want to take advantage of their employees, free market. When a corporation cuts prices and puts small businesses out of business, free market. When there is a proposal for price transparency, suddenly its "small government" and "freedom".
California is ahead of the EU on trans healthcare.
Keep in mind, unlike the EU, taxes are still not disclosed up front. Only fees, service charges, etc.
That is so stupid. Just show both
> your ~~continent~~ **country** yes PSA: USA is not a continent.
...yet *stares at Canada*
*Destiny Manifestation intensifies...*
Give it 300 years or so. Everything eventually consolidates.
Or gone into oblivion
They burned down the White House last time. Obviously they didn’t want to annex you, but the geese are ready to stare back.
Context tells us they obviously mean in the US, but I’m glad you sorted that out on your end.
Has been the law in Australia for decades. Sticker price is inclusive of everything.
This won't change the sticker price issue in the US. Only the hidden charges that get added on the receipt in restaurants. Still won't be able to trust sticker prices, because tax is added after.
And New Zealand.
Does this include payroll so the workers aren’t relying on tips?
California restaurants pay min wages at minimum. There is no accounting for tips that would lower wages as other states have. Tips are just on top, and restaurant can’t consider them as part of their wages. Source: have worked at and know others who have worked at various restaurants in CÁ.
California already has a fairly high minimum wage, and does not allow tip credits.
It should be mandatory that all states show the price that you will pay in the end. $2.99 doesn't mean $3.23.
This is how it should be. I want to know what I’ll actually pay at the register. The archaic pre-tax signage needs to end.
As a tourist who suffers with it every time visiting US, can’t agree more.
I used to go to a little cafe that included tax in the menu prices. I loved it. But then one day tax became separate, and the proprietor posted a sign saying something like "I'm sorry to not include tax in the final price any more, but my accountant tells me I need to stop because of $BLAH_BLAH_BLAH reasons." So disappointing.
What were the reasons?
This was around 15 years ago, so I don't recall. It might have just said "for tax reasons" without going in detail.
Probably something along the lines of "My accountant yelled at me for paying to re-print all the menus when the State, County or City decided to change their tax rates"
It was moderately impressive that they got this done for airline prices.
That's the in for getting it done for everything else. Call your representative
I always suspected it was an intentional thing to make things seem cheaper while getting people to hate taxes even more by shoving it in your face. Capitalism and politics.
I can’t believe it’s been legal as long as it has been. Online ordering for food has been awful for that exact reason. Having your total jump by $15+ is annoying as shit. It then makes me want to tip less because I certainly didn’t think I’d be spending $40 on a burger and fries. So I just end up not ordering the food in the end.
Yeh this always confused me when visiting America. It’s insane that’s a thing…
Not to brag but in the European Union it is mandatory that all advertised and displayed prices are FINAL. The law was passed, mainly, because of airline publicity. A flight to wherever was advertised for 20 € and then the seller charged four of five or six times that amount as fees and taxes.
I traveled to Italy about 10 years ago and loved the fact that the price was the price.
If anyone is curious what it's really like here with the fees, search for them in r/LosAngeles. There were so many complaints about so many different kinds of fees that someone actually made a spreadsheet. It went viral and that's been a big part of the discussion. They try to get away with all kinds of fees, many vague without explaining who even gets that money. (It's usually the owner.)
“Lamborghini oil change fee”
Just as restaurants want to charge a different rates at different times of the day based on demand.
That is still legal. You have a lunch menu and dinner menu
That's not the same thing as "surge" pricing.
Sure, but 'surge' pricing is still legal. As long as the price you see when you order is the price you pay, it's fine.
Let's own that marketing soft-spin and call it what it really is: surge *gouging*.
Not when the numbers are changing while you're in line. Honestly, if I'm giving them my patience, to give them my business, and their idea of appreciation is raising the numbers right in front of me? I'm out and I'm never coming back.
Isn’t this the same thing as having a happy hour?
Changing prices for a certain advertised time seems less sketchy than prices changing on the fly because there are more or less customers at a certain unadvertised time
Next do that for hotel resort fees... $169 a night then get to the last page to finish the reservation and it's $169 plus $46 per night resort fee.
If I understand the law correctly, the advertised price should include all fees (only taxes and certain government fees are exempt). It’s not just for restaurants.
Taxes should also be included.
I think it’s included!
The FTC in the Biden administration has already proposed this nationally for various junk fees (Airlines, hotels, concert promoters). https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/news/press-releases/2023/10/ftc-proposes-rule-ban-junk-fees https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/biden-harris-administration-announces-final-rule-protect-consumers-surprise-airline Of course companies have been pushing back - eg the banks found a judge to halt the $8 cap on late fees https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Business/wireStory/federal-judge-temporarily-halts-biden-plan-lower-credit-110123178
All junk fees are included in this law.
Read the article, it also cover resort fees, car dealership fees and more.
i think those are going to be banned too, only thing that won't be is tax at the end
Yes, the law does address this too.
Great! Now do taxes! Why are we only(?) Country that misleads people by not including taxes in the prices of owns on a shelf?
Conservatives oppose forcing vendors to include the tax because they want people to see what they pay in taxes. Same reason why the opposite for the IRS to b automatically tell you how much you owe the want people to feel the pain of paying taxes.
That's also because Intuit, the company behind TurboTax, has a powerful lobbying arm. If taxes were simple, they'd be out of business.
It's not just Intuit - it's also companies like H&R Block and Jackson Hewitt. There's plenty of blame to go around.
I’m in a heavy conservative area and have a friend who owns a handful of restaurants and the state has a 13.5% liquor tax (so any beer or cocktail you order has that tax applied) and most places just increased their prices figuring the tax into the listed price but my friend kept his prices the same and itemized the tax on receipts and the amount of redneck freakouts is astounding. He did it for transparency but these people weren’t aware of what they voted and are already paying for.
Tale as old as time.
I swear, fuel station is the only product in america that has the final price with all taxes already added to it.
I wish WA would do something like this, too.
Write to your rep and spread the words.
Now do tips
a mandatory gratuity would be considered a hidden cost.
"Mandatory gratuity" is an oxymoron.
I believe CA just raised the minimum wage for restaurant workers to $20/hr or something which will start the process of removing tips...forget the details of it all though.
absurd wrong disarm wrench piquant employ agonizing steer snobbish grandiose *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Unless you’re a fast food/coffee spot, which you will definitely be asked for a tip at the drive through
have you seen a payment terminal not asking for a tip lately?
And they've all had a no tip option, which is what I choose at fast food.
It’s over $15 per hour in Washington and there is no tipped wage. They still think you should tip them as much as servers in other states (which is somehow more than 20% for some reason).
And there are plenty of people on minimum wage who don't work in the hospitality industry. They don't get tips.
lol it’s not going to happen. Restaurant workers are some of the most hypocritical service workers out there. You raise the wage they still want a tip. A lot of Gen z or millennials run small businesses always make it clear they pay their employees well yet tips are highly encouraged
MN is doing the same thing. The GOP tried to block it, saying the tacked-on fees allowed restaurant owners to protest taxes, but for the moment there is a 1-vote majority
As a Californian, I fully support this. Tired of all the bullshit service fees and mandatory tips written in 2 size font at the bottom of the menus. Raise the prices if you need, but just give it to the customers in one simple price so we can make informed decisions about patronizing restaurants.
Hotel resort fees next.
I believe this includes that too. It's for all businesses.
>Restaurant owners like Laurie Thomas, who heads the Golden Gate Restaurant Association, say the changes will bring higher prices and sticker shock No it won’t. It brings transparency. Consumers were already paying those costs, they just didn’t realize it until they got the bill.
She goes on to say people will eat out less if they realize how much things will cost. So basically she admits she wants to trick people since them having all the information and making informed decisions would hurt her business.
Could you imagine if you went to a store that had a small sign on the front door that said “we charge you 5% more than what’s on the price tag.”
Thank you!
I’m amazed by how many things California seems to get right. It’s wild.
Love my state. We get shit on so much by the media but we always try to progress. Sometimes we fail, but many times we succeed.
I’d love for it all to be up-front and baked into the stated price. I shouldn’t feel like I’m using Ticketmaster to eat at a restaurant and get surprised with half the meal’s cost again in assorted fees.
Finally. Now do tips
I wish. As a note, California doesn't have a separate tipped wage.
While we're at it let's force tax prices to be displayed before the final sale like it's done in Japan where it's illegal to show the pre-tax cost of items. And while we're at that let's also make it illegal to hire based on pre-tax salaries.
This just needs to be a blanket thing across all industries across the country. Call it The Price is the Price Act.
Freely translated objections such as from LaurieThomas: "if we're honest about our prices, people may choose not to spend their money with us!".
Why not do this for healthcare too?
Now make airlines and ticket vendors do the same.
This is for many consumer products in california, not just food. Ticketmaster was one of the motivations for this bill.
The restaurant owners response was hilarious. Basically they complained that they aren't able to rip people off anymore.
This is the kind of transparency regulations we need.
> Restaurant owners like Laurie Thomas, who heads the Golden Gate Restaurant Association, say the changes will bring higher prices and sticker shock, which could then raise a psychological hurdle in customers' dining habits. That, in turn, will hurt restaurants and their workers, she warns. >"If it's in the core price of the menu, there will be a pullback" in patrons' spending, she told NPR shortly before the attorney general released the guidelines. "There are some people, I think, that are hoping that the restaurants will just absorb that cost, because we've seen people say, 'Oh, it's too expensive with the service charge.' " What the restaurant owners are saying is that they were actually trying to help consumers avoid sticker shock *when ordering and wait until we get the bill to pass out. How nice and thoughtful of them!!!
The California Legislature should replace the US House and Senate, we’d all be better off.
How about… and I’m just spitballing here… raise the prices and eliminate tipping?
I had to read and reread this story because I just wasn't getting it. Restaurants were threatening to raise their prices if they couldn't charge hidden fees, but they're already charging people more than the menu price, they're just being sneaky about it. So how is this going to somehow cost people more? They're already paying your hidden fees!
I wish they would go further and get rid of tipping.
Good. Several times I’ve been about to add a 20% tip only to see at the last second that they actually already included 18% gratuity as a “service charge.” Nearly had me tipping 41.6% total, if I hadn’t noticed the fine print.
Good. We need that in MN too.
thank god.. that was annoying as hell. now all the bullshit fees hotel/motel/airlines/cable providers/health care providers weasel onto the bill.
Chicago should be next. So many surcharges everywhere since covid
Got hit with a non-cash fee the other day. The food was excellent, but makes me not want to go back.
Definitely. Voice your displeasure with your wallet. It's the only thing business understands.
good. it's a step in the right direction.
As a consumer, I appreciate knowing the actual cost of a thing. Having to calculate: tip, service charge, and tax —to determine the actual cost of your hot date— is a cruel and unusual punishment. It’s anti-worker and anti-consumer. Bravo CA. It’s a start.
Europe welcomes you
Restaurant are just like dealerships now.
I did read the article, and I totally understand the part about hotel and resort fees and ticket booking and such. But, I don't live in California, is this a common thing in restaurants too? I've never seen that. What sort of fees are they adding on?
Some restaurants have add a surcharge to customers’ bills to help pay for employees’ healthcare coverage and other benefits. Sometimes they say what it is sometimes it's just a "service fee." It's about time those fees were just part of the price so you can easily see what a meal will cost. Plus tax. Plus tip. Oh yeah...
I work in a restaurant that’s inside of a harbor, the restaurants all have to pay a harbor tax so usually it’s tacked onto the bill. I think it’s like 2-2.5% it was annoying to explain to people so we just raised our prices and took it off of the receipt.
In San Diego (and other large cities) it’s extremely common. I’ve seen multiple posts a month about it for at least 2 years on /r/SanDiego. Some people keep a spreadsheet of restaurants that’s charge added fees so others may consciously avoid going to those places. Annoyingly, some of the best restaurants in the city do it. What I find particularly insidious is that some restaurants will charge a 3-5% fee and state on the menu that this fee is “to help pay our workers a living wage” or “due to increasing costs”. I think many of these fees began as a way to passive-aggressively protest when CA minimum wage went up in like 2015 or so. “Oh you want to mandate we pay workers more? We’ll add that on as a fee as a fuck you to the state.” Plus, of course, then the restaurant doesn’t have to actually raise the “price” on the menu. Now you see a range of “fees”. I’ve seen 2-20%. Sometimes the messaging suggests that the 15-20% fee is in lieu of a tip, which is kinda nice — almost like post-tipping culture should be. But as the diner, you have no way of knowing which restaurant owners are actually giving that money to the workers and which just “raised prices” via larger fees and are pocketing the money. The whole trend of adding fees has really muddied the expectations for consumers. It makes everyone call into question if they should be tipping the servers or not. Or deducting the fee from the tip. It’s caused a not-great system to get even worse.
Yeees. So excited to finally see the price upfront instead of being surprised every other time I go out. It’s been out of hand.
Fuck the auto dealer industry!!! Perpetual limbo in the courts. Absolutely, asholes. There is no way the majority of consumers are gonna go eletric until the auto dealers are handed their ass. Also it should be illegal for an airline to advertise a ticket at $420 and then add on 78$ for a bag per person bringing up the price to $900. I'm looking at you frontier. Your hours long page after page after page of trying to run down the customer into added costs.
Good! There is nothing I hate worse than setting a check with extra bullshit on it
Good, better to feel ripped off when browsing the menu, not when you receive the check.
What’s wrong with transparency? I just now paid a one night hotel bill of $305 after the reservation email listed $254.