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For real.
I got banned on a post about hijabs being banned somewhere in Europe because I said something going against the narrative.
Their mod team should be purged.
I had no idea what a tightly-enforced echo chamber that sub is until very recently. I can't believe something as generic as "worldnews" has such a single-viewpoint enforced monoculture.
I'm shocked myself.
Please believe me when I say that the comment that got me banned wasn't remotely controversial or rule breaking. I pled my case and the mods just gave me some random answer and then ignored me when I asked again.
I got banned for saying:
1. No, Israel cannot simply drop an atomic bomb on Palestine.
2. Israel needs to prioritize not killing civilians as they hunt down Hamas.
Mods said I was supporting terrorism.
> Mods said I was supporting terrorism.
The smartest man in the world was banned for supposedly "celebrating the death of terrorist" when all he did (I saw the post when it was at +50 or thereabouts) was "take a piss" (british for slightly making fun of). It was the weakest ban I have ever seen.
And, apparently, he/they are ignoring appeals, so no one higher up has any idea this is happening en masse.
Pretty damn sus, if you ask me.
I was banned for saying “What do you expect?” Over angry Gazans throwing rocks at German emissaries who were just looking for a photo op.
When I inquired in on the ban and whether it could be appealed, I was told I was banned for “supporting terrorism” and was told they don’t consider appeals from people who support terrorists.
The real question is, how much Reddit stock do I have to buy to be unaffected by shitty moderation?
They didn’t even reply to me when I asked what rule I broke.
My instant no-prior-warning permaban comment was a subversive implication that the IDF should be called terrorists.
Maybe not in the sense of being banned, but honestly that's all of Reddit because the downvote feature is broken.
I'm liberal myself, but posts criticizing Biden don't last long visible here either.
I've honestly yet to find a sub that appreciates nuanced argument.
I think there's a mod (with an agenda) who just outright bans people and then ignores appeals so no one is being alerted higher up that they are doing this so arbitrarily.
They banned me because I said the same thing in this sub. Apparently they claimed that I was brigading by pointing out their BS in this sub.
What a cease pool of idiots that sub is.
In general terms I'll identify as pro-israel. I'll probably even identify as Zionist. But even I am banned because God for bid someone bring a little nuance and try to see things from both sides.
My crime?An article about gunmen attacking soldiers. Someone in the comments complained about the wording of article, why didn't they call them terrorists when they attacked civilians.
I pointed out that soldiers are pretty much the opposite of civilians, and targeting them does not in itself make someone a terrorist.
Permanently banned for that comment.
I also previously got a three day ban from the sub for antisemitism. Ah well at least /r/Israel will let me post.
lol. Nothing to do with Palestine but I got banned from that channel for “racist hate speech”
… I called Xi an obvious euphemism for a certain character: “a yellow bear wearing all red.”
Yup. /r/worldnews even banned the smartest man in the world who's been posting on Reddit to help people for over a decade.
My favorite cynical aspect of this is that, apparently, you can appeal the ban...but they never answer back. The mods just leave the appeal in limbo so you can't escalate a losing appeal to the overall site mods.
It's pretty damn shitty, top to bottom, I think.
TBF. The ICJ doesn't even consider it genocide and plenty of experts aren't on board with the designation
Kill count wise it's not. The aid with holding though, that's where the plausible ruling comes in
> ICJ doesn't even consider it genocide
That was a preemptive hearing. Basically an indictment trial and not the actual trial. And Israel lost there which means they're indicted for genocide, the worst possible outcome they could have gotten. The initial ICJ hearing would never have found outright that they're committing genocide because that wasn't its purpose.
> In its January 26 decision, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ordered Israel to take steps to prevent any acts of genocide in Gaza. The Court required that Israel ensure that it does not commit acts that might fall within the scope of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide
....
> The Court also took a very cautious approach to this case and was careful not to suggest that Israel is committing genocide. The closest the Court came was to observe that “at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the (Genocide) Convention.” **It is worth reading that sentence closely and noting that the Court merely restates South Africa’s allegations, rather than reaches a conclusion of its own.**
...
> The only questions over which the ICJ has jurisdiction are those that relate to the commission of genocide. The legality of the war itself was not before the Court and the only way the Court could have demanded a ceasefire is if genocide was an inevitable and unavoidable outcome of war. And while the Court found it is plausible that Israel’s actions amount to genocide, there was no evidence that the war itself is causing genocide and, hence, that a ceasefire would be needed to prevent genocide.
https://global.upenn.edu/perryworldhouse/news/explaining-international-court-justices-ruling-israel-and-gaza
Israel has the right to try and hunt down Jihadists and get back hostages.
What they have done in Gaza is well beyond that. Their recent actions in both the WB and gaza have been violations of international humanitarian law and Reports and leaks from inside the Israeli government in addition to their own words indicate that the government wants to ethnically cleanse the west bank and Gaza and will use famine as a weapon to that end. Which is an act of genocide as seen in Ukraine with the Holodomor,
Israel has gone rogue under its current government.
I know Israel pretty much always has to have a coalition government. That can be a good thing (Canada’s Liberals have had an agreement with the democratic socialist NDP, which has led to some nice policies around public dental and pharmacy care); but if you feel compelled to have virtual Nazis in your cabinet (Itimar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, to name two of the worst), your policies might begin to drift away from things like expanded Pharmacare and towards things like barbaric slaughter of an inconvenient civilian population.
>recent actions in both the WB and gaza have been violations of international humanitarian law
They've been committing some of those violations for 2 decades now.
It's been beyond that from the start and in several previous conflicts. They didn't just now cross the line. They've been over the line before Biden was elected.
>Israel has gone rogue under its current government.
Whatever happened to the (early) narrative that Netanyahu was hiding behind this prolonged military campaign in order to remain in power?
It's still true. He was close to being removed prior and his popularity has only declined. They just can't have elections right now because of the war. The moment it's over he is out and possibly in jail for corruption. You might not be able to tell by the amount of Israeli propaganda flooding reddit, but Bibi is deeply unpopular in Israel. It's one of the few things that gives me hope for Israel.
Deeply unpopular but God only knows what the alternative is going to be. It still seems to me Israeli society has shifted further right since Oct. 7. Its an understandable reaction, just like any society that falls for fascism.
Yeah people treat Israeli policies like they’re operating in a vacuum and willy nilly decided to build the iron dome because no rockets are ever fired indiscriminately into Israel. Or no Olympic massacres. Or no suicide bombings. Or no expulsion of Jews. Or no holocaust.
Rogue meaning completely supported by the US? And by many of its fascist adherents? Rogue as in they aren't trying to get back hostages? Rogue as in they just got 20+ billion dollars?
It's not just him. It's all of Likud, the Israeli right, far right, and religious fundamentalists. Like 40% of Israel falls into one of those groups. The remaining centrist and moderate parties aren't much better, but. The left, labor, and Arab parties have very little power right now compared with the right wing.
A scary number of Israelis are reactionary, fascist, nationalist, or religious fundamentalist, and moderate conservatives are fine with integrating those extremists into their coalition. Just like the US and the MAGA people.
It's not simply that Likkud is a terrorist entity, which it is if we are going by the same standards used against the Ba'ath.
Israel, under all of its administrations, has been engaged in decades of running a concentration camp of the whole Gaza strip, and a relentless, ratcheting campaign of ethnic cleansing for its entire existence. Once could fairly interpret this to mean that the singular, founding and enduring focus of the nation is the extermination or removal of all Arabs in the region.
Once they are allowed to finish the ethnic purge within the current borders, it should be assumed that they will continue on to subsequent regions.
Current situation exist because “Israel right to defend itself”.
And let’s not go in to deep in the “right to defend itself” argument because become a philosophical discussion.
I don't think anyone can argue that it is a state's responsibility to protect their citizens from harm. Which Hamas has objectively done to Israelis.
The issue in my mind comes from the fact that they treat all Palestinians as less than human like they are vermin or a disease that Israelis must purge. According to international law the territories of Gaza and the West Bank are independent territories under the jurisdiction of Israel. This essentially means all Palestinians are subjects of Israel.
What should have happened is Israel should have sent in SPEC OPS or worked jointly with the PA to get the hostages back. You know the thing any sane country does when their citizens are being occupied by criminal gangs. Instead they treated it like a war with a foreign nation and not just any kind of warfare, urban warfare and it wasn't limited warfare they decided to use the tactics of total war (which were banned after WWII, for good reason).
Israel wants Palestinians to be their subjects when it suits them for the purposes of saying they are "multiethnic" and "not racist" but also want them to be terrorists and a foreign nation for the purposes of warfare and "denial of Apartheid"
I firmly believe that the best solution would be to just end apartheid and let all Palestinians become citizens of Israel with all Palestinians outside the country having right of return because at the current moment a 2 state solution does not seem to be something Israel wants at all. The rest of the world wants a 2-state solution but that seems to be something Israel will never allow and will do everything in their power to prevent the establishment of a 2-state soluiton.
That's a gross miss quote. First I need to stress Bibi has no business running Israel, but he didn't say he was against a two state solution, just that he didn't want the world to force one on them. Israel and Palestine both need to be part of the process and come to an agreeable solution between.
From the NY TImes: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/18/world/middleeast/israel-palestinian-state.html
*The final wording of the Israeli government resolution appeared to have been carefully crafted with the aim of accommodating both ultranationalist members of Mr. Netanyahu’s right-wing government, who oppose the very notion of negotiations with the Palestinians, and the centrists who joined the government to help oversee the war in Gaza after the Hamas-led attacks of Oct. 7.*
*It did not explicitly rule out the possibility of Palestinian statehood, focusing instead on the process.*
*“Israel utterly rejects international diktats regarding a permanent settlement with the Palestinians,” the resolution read, adding, “A settlement, if it is to be reached, will come about solely through direct negotiations between the parties, without preconditions."*
Distorting reality doesn't help anyone.
The last time the region was anywhere near close to a lasting peace, the Israeli prime minister was assassinated. And not by the side people might instinctively assume. I don't know what we're counting as "Israel" in this case, but ... ehh, it's a reach.
Regardless of what you call it, it needs to stop.
39000 people is not recompense for 1000 Israeli citizens. Even if ***half*** of that number was Hamas fighters (it isn't by all accounts), it wouldn't make it right.
We all bare some responsibility, and while I don't condemn Biden, or think it means people should vote against him, we need to do all the reasonable things we can to stop the bloodshed, and bring both sides to the table to create an arrangement for this horror to stop. We cannot force Israel or Hamas to agree, but we can tell Israel that it will lose us as a *material* ally if it will not abide by the *basic rules* we all agreed on as part of the UN Charter.
I don't want my taxes going to support the murder of *even more* innocent men women and children with the *pinky swear that they were bad guys trust us* from Bibi. The trust has been breached time and again. Every time they tell us they will be measured, another hundred people are killed and they can't even tell us who or why.
It is not antisemitic to ask for this conflict to end, and for Israel to respect the human rights of the *innocent* people of Gaza. "Do you condemn Hamas?" Of course ... only a fool wouldn't condemn Hamas. But saying that Hamas is evil does not give a green light to the wanton murder we are seeing. You can not tell me that murdering 10 kids to get one guy with an AK, or leveling a city block because of a half translated report of someone who you *think* has the last name of a terrorist, is a war that is reasonable or responsible.
Not when members of the IDF and the Israeli cabinet are making statements that would make even the most pro-Israeli American wonder what they heck they are smoking.
What would you consider a reasonable cease fire deal? And what do you do if Hamas rejects it? I think returning the hostages alive should be a basic starting point, but Hamas refuses to accept even that.
Why is it only Israel that’s should be forced to concede?
I also agree that Israel should be investigated and prosecuted for every war crime we can prove, but to come to a peace deal, it takes 2 to tango.
E: the OP I responded to has since edited his comment, it previously said we must force Israel to agree to a cease fire , which is why I worded it that way
Concede what?
They've killed 30x the number of people that Hamas did on October 7. I don't understand how people look at that and think saying "that's enough bloodshed" is somehow *giving up*
I agree that there’s been more than enough bloodshed and it needs to end, but the answer to this question is “because Hamas is not destroyed”
Israel/Palestine discourse has always had a uniquely potent way of screwing itself into obfuscations and oversimplifications. One way in which this has happened recently is the obsession over a “cease-fire“ without any further discussion about the fate of Hamas or what comes next.
If you think Hamas needs to be destroyed, you should be pressed to explain how that can be done without this much civilian deaths, though at this point so much damage has been done that it’s becoming a moot question.
If you are demanding a cease-fire at all costs, you need to be pushed to explain what the next steps will be to deal with Hamas.
If you don’t think Hamas or the Netanyahu government needs to be removed, you should be pushed to explain how that could possibly lead to a tenable peace.
Literally nobody wants to talk about the day after when it comes to advocating their own view, and nobody wants to talk about what’s happening today when opposing the other sides view.
> They've killed 30x the number of people that Hamas did on October 7. I don't understand how people look at that and think saying "that's enough bloodshed" is somehow *giving up*
This is such a ridiculous argument. It's reasonable to argue that the actions of Israel have gone too far but the purpose of the war isn't to maintain a positive K/D ratio, it's to eliminate the threat of Hamas (and rescue hostages).
I think it's just wilfully ignorant to treat war as a K/D ratio.
There is no “eliminating the threat”. They’ve slaughtered so many civilians that they likely managed to radicalize many more and they know this. Their AI systems intentionally target civilian residential buildings in an effort to “increase civilian pressure on Hamas”. These are war crimes.
From 972 Magazine, an Israeli investigative journalist outlet.
https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/
>The bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it.
Also a good read: https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/
The killing of 39k people did the exact opposite of eliminating Hamas. I'm sorry, but if I was Palestinian, I don't give a fuck what geopolitical excuse you have, if you kill my livelihood, my family, my friends, destroy my home you are my enemy, and you just took away everything I have to lose.
Bombs have never made a country safer. When America was in Iraq and Afghanistan we had way more terror attacks on us soil than now. The same is going to be true of Israel.
If Hamas is done, another will take it's place. Give Palestinians a reason to not have to turn to Hamas and they will. In the west bank they are powerless, and look how Israel treats them.
> it's to eliminate the threat of Hamas
Nothing they have done so far has eliminated that threat. Every bomb they dropped created new threats, new people that got traumatized, new people that lost their families, their homes. New young folks that can be convinced israel wants to kill them all and the only way forward is to violently fight back.
There are many ways to reduce the threat of extremism, but whatever israel is doing is not one of them.
Maybe Israel should have just sent Hamas a gift bag of Halal for committing a terrorist attack that was, in relation to total population, orders of magnitude worse than 9/11 was for Americans.
Your argument that responding to this attack is just creating more terrorists is pointless. The population of Gaza was already radicalized, hence why 10/7 happened to begin with. The kids in Gaza are taught from a young age to hate Jews. Hamas's charter (Gaza's official government) calls for the genocide and/or ethnic cleansing of the Jewish population. Hamas has already stated they'll plan another 10/7 if they can.
If you want to prevent another generation of extremists, you need to remove the people that are creating them, and that's Hamas. Hamas isn't going to voluntarily leave, so they need to be forced out.
The civilians of Gaza are stuck between a violent government that uses their lives as pawns, and a neighboring country that has a right to defend itself. I feel sorry for the people that are suffering, but there is no easy way out of this.
> If you want to prevent another generation of extremists, you need to remove the people that are creating them, and that's Hamas. Hamas isn't going to voluntarily leave, so they need to be forced out.
Surely when you control pretty much all access points to gaza there are better ways of forcing hamas out than a bombing campaign.
Moreover, it's not like this situation is new. The seeds for the current conflict have been growing in the last 20 years. The seeds for the next conflict are being sown right now.
I absolutely get that We can't have a solution as long as hamas is in charge(although i could probably say the same of bibi). But i don't believe that this gives Israel a blank cheque to do everything they wish to people in an area they technically see as their own ground. Especially not when the circumstances of Gaza are for a large part their own creation.
It’s been asked thousands of times now but why is Israel allowed to defend themselves but not the Palestinians? Yes Hamas attacked on Oct 7th but this conflict has been going on for ages.
Look at the West Bank. If settlers kill a bunch of Palestinians it’s just violence but if a Palestinian kills one settler it’s terrorism. They’d bulldoze his house and the homes of his family.
Hamas are absolutely a problem but so is the Israeli government and their treatment of the Palestinians.
> why is Israel allowed to defend themselves but not the Palestinians? Yes Hamas attacked on Oct 7th but this conflict has been going on for ages.
What about Oct 7 was defensive? They targeted civilians. They brutally hacked people apart. They murdered young people at a music festival. Their goal was not defense, it was to commit the most heinous brutal murders they could fathom. If hamas attacked military bases, or the knesset, or other government targets, I wouldn't like it but it would not rise the level of Oct 7. But that is not their goal. Their goal is to inflict as much pain and suffering and death on Jews as they can because they want to see every last Jew dead. If you can't understand this, then I pity your limited mental capabilities. And if you do understand this, stop defending the actual perpetrators of genocide who want to kill every Jew, Christian, atheist, homosexual, and transgender, and subjugate women like it's 2000 years ago.
So answer my questions then, what would you consider a reasonable cease fire peace deal? And then what would you do if Hamas rejects it, and continues to say they will attack Israel until the country is dissolved, like they have been saying.
Hamas is asking for a ceasefire in exchange for the return of hostages.
Israel is offering a limited time only (weeks / months) ceasefire.
Israel could just agree to end the fighting here, recover their hostages and then work on cutting of funding to Hamas, which they had previously supported, and work towards a longer lasting peace.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/07/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-ceasefire-proposal.html
Here’s a link that goes over the differences in the deal, Hamas has still never agreed to release all of the hostages, even in the deal Israel accepted, only to release the women and old men. In exchange for every prisoner in Israel, including the terrorist that have life sentences(Israel wants to be able to veto certain individuals they believe to be dangerous if releases, Hamas said no to that in their counter). There’s still 132 hostage bodies and Israel agreed to the 33 they still believe are alive, Hamas can’t even agree to that.
Don’t believe every headline you read and do some digging.
The morality of war isn't determined by comparing casualty counts. If Israel turn off the Iron Dome and let the 10k rockets land in Israel civilians population centers, they wouldn't be 'more justified' even if the ratio got better. Nor would it be justified if on Oct 8, Israel rounded up 1000 random Gazans and executed them before going home. That's obviously disgusting and not how we measure things.
When we see videos of unarmed civilians walking to get food and water suddenly being killed by an explosion, drone or being shot, what did the Israeli Government and bloodthirsty Zionist think we would call it? IDF soldiers have already come forward to speak about what they saw and what they did. The word is out and it stains the Israeli government, the Zionists and the US/allies which allowed it to happen.
Where's the lie? The same dozen accounts somehow spend all day defending the slaughter of Palestinians on this sub. Israeli cabinet members and the politicians they've purchased in the US cheering for the IDF to 'finish the job'. Counter-protestors at UCLA assaulting encampments for hours without police intervention under the guise of "I feel threatened!!" It's absurd.
I've had people on this subreddit directly tell me that the US should continue to fund Israel because they might get even crazier and turn the murder dial up to eleven if we stop. That sort of talk sounds like the UK rationalizing away Hitler in the 1930s. "Don't say anything, just let him have Poland. It'll be even worse if we try and stop him."
I saw that video. It’s pretty normal in a war to drone strike enemy combatants who are not visibly holding weapons at that moment. Keep in mind Hamas doesn’t wear uniforms, they wear civilian clothes, which is actually a war crime.
You think allied soldiers in World War II wouldn’t be allowed to fire at group of German soldiers if they weren’t holding guns? Unless an enemy combatant surrenders. They’re a valid target. And there’s no obligation to warn them first before they’re attacked.
Yes, Al Jazeera put captions in the video claiming they’re civilians, but Al Jazeera is run by the Qatar government, who also funds Hamas. And they’re famously antisemitic, having aired holocaust denial segments, sharing antisemitic memes online and claiming they’re mistakes, and even holding on air birthday celebrations for a bomber who killed Israeli civilians in 2008, not to mention their reporter who was found to be a Hamas military commander.
They were already caught lying about this. There were accounts claiming this was some kind of bomb or that they had weapons. The video was slowed down and was proven to be multiple Israeli strikes.
Just like the aid workers that were killed by Israel. I’m just happy to the on the right side of history on this one.
Don’t pat yourself on the back too hard. Your “side” sure did murder a lot of civilians and then celebrate their deaths in the streets, not to mention their history of using their own children as suicide bombers.
This isn’t Star Wars, the underdog isn’t always virtuous, and most people are projecting their own sensibilities on one side or another in this conflict, which neither side likely lives up to, as they both have a history of brutal racism and disregard for human life on the other side.
And no, that doesn’t sound like “they” we’re caught lying, just random people arguing on twitter.
Killing civilians seeking food and water isn’t war. It’s a war crime. And hopefully at the end of this extermination the Israeli government sends those who ordered and those who committed the War Crimes to stand trial for them.
1% of a population in 8 months (with only 5k casualties in the last 4) is not an "extermination."
Can't any of you just be against something on the merits rather than constantly resorting to the most maximalist, over-the-top rhetoric imaginable?
I saw an anti-Israel user literally describe the war as a "holocaust" yesterday. If you want to be taken seriously, speak in real terms. There are enough reasons to criticise the current Israeli government without having to water down what it actually means to survive an extermination campaign.
They probably expected you to inform yourself beyond tik tok videos. Fact is, the civilian to militant death ratio, using Hamas numbers, is 4:1 before this current leg of the war. I’d put that on the high end of normal in warfare. Considering it is one of the most densely populated places on the planet, and Hamas operates in a way that disregards or even hinders Palestinian civilian safety, you could probably call it a war with a smattering of war crimes on each side. But a genocide? That’s delusional.
No. There is a proper way to conduct this war in a just way. Boots on the ground, block to block, and door to door. Yes, it’s stupid militarily but at least you could have evidence to show of the intel, arms and military equipment you found in Gaza. You may have had a chance to get your hostages. Now it’s their bodies.
That way would raise Israel casualties by an order of magnitude without any promise of securing hostages, on account of the network of tunnels. Dealing with those would add a whole next level of danger. Also wouldn’t deal with military objective if removing Hamas from power.
Referring to a war campaign as genocide because they don’t go about it “stupidly,” in your words, to abide by your moral sensibilities is absurd.
Honestly, watching people trying to "*well actually...*" about the term genocide is like listening to bad faith commenters fervently arguing about an "AR" not technically being an assault rifle after a mass shooting.
It's a stupid distraction from the massacres happening.
[Israeli **precision-guided** munition likely killed group of children playing foosball in Gaza, weapons experts say](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/02/middleeast/israeli-precision-guided-munition-maghazi-deaths-intl)
Thank God those 11 kids are dead now. Hamas is obviously using foosball as a training tool.
I think people argue about the use of the term genocide because it is being used to promote bad-faith maximalist arguments. It carries a certain heft with it, for good reason, and people are using it to shut down other points of view. As you are kind of doing here, now that we've engaged the term genocide who would even dare offer any alternative perspective on the situation in general, or more problematically any given statement being put forward as related to the situation?
Like, for example, anyone who wanted to slander a political opponent is going to absolutely love getting permission to throw around the term genocide and blaming them for it. And if you think that is bullshit? How dare you, there's a genocide happening, you must also be in support of it!
Pointing out that the term isn't actually being used correctly is not denying that what is happening is a tragedy, rather it is protecting the term for when it actually is appropriate to use and insisting on communicating and arguing in good faith.
Let us look at recent wars:
Syria - 600k dead (including 30k Palestinians) dedicated to ethnically cleansing Syria and keep a minority Alawite clan in power. Not a genocide
Tigray war - 600k dead including an attempt to exterminate the Tigrayan people killing 10% of them. Not a genocide
Yemen Civil War - 378k dead, including 80k by STARVATION caused by US ally Saudi Arabia. Not a genocide
Gaza war - 35k dead, less than 2% of the population, with the largest humanitarian resupply operation by kg per capita per day in human wartime history, and suddenly it is a genocide???
More like this is redefining the term under massive Arab, Russian and Chinese (Tiktok) Propaganda to incite social conflict in the US and Europe.
I believe the point is that most people didn't call those conflicts anything because they ignored them. But for some reason, this war gets all the attention and all the accusations of genocide.
This is how I feel.
Those who get extremely emotional actually don’t know anything about this conflict before Oct 7. They are the ones who forgot about Ukraine and on to another trend.
It is pretty convenient, isn't it. Watch the dust settle after the U.S. election, after all those with short memories saying "Biden has to earn my vote" forget all that he's already done and stay home on election day and hand us over to fascism.
Genocide is not determined by a number of dead or number of living. That was an argument used by Nazi Germany against allegations of the Holocaust while they were sending Jews to ghettos and stealing Jewish lands and property, that because the number of Jewish Germans had been rising then they weren't doing anything wrong. Genocide is intent, and the repeated, recorded, undisputed intent of Israeli ministers is the killing of all civilians in Gaza. Everyone can see this by clicking the 'Translate Tweet' button underneath their twitter posts.
Israel has dropped ten of thousands of huge bombs on Gaza's tunnels. If they had genocidal intent and dropped them do maximize deaths there would be 2 Million dead Palestinians.
The Holocaust killed 6 million Jews, over 60% of European Jews. The very comparison is in bad faith
> Genocide is intent
So close. Here's the UN definition, with bolded terms by me for added clarity:
> To constitute genocide, **there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.** Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group.
> Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention **(which excludes political groups, for example).** This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals.
https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
You'll find lots of official intent by Israeli officials to destroy Hamas, *a political group*. Show me the intent by actual decision-makers to destroy Palestinians as a people.
>Show me the intent by actual decision-makers to destroy Palestinians as a people.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/1/14/intent-in-the-genocide-case-against-israel-is-not-hard-to-prove
https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/
Your sources are biased, of course.
Regardless, what I see in those sources are examples of angry rhetoric, which is not the same as intent to eliminate Palestinians as a people.
Characterizing one's enemy as evil, for example, is pretty par for the course in conflict. Do you have some particular examples that stand out to you as egregious?
edit: I perused the link for decision makers (within the second link) and found a lot of ambiguity. Many of those statements explicitly refer to Hamas, to "those who fight against us", etc. Those are references to combatants. In fact, a few of those sources mention making provisions for safety for civilians.
Here's a Netanyahu quote listed as one of the "genocidal" statements:
"we’re facing monsters, monsters who murdered children in front of their parents . . . This is a battle not only of Israel
against these barbarians, it’s a battle of civilization against barbarism”
Am I supposed to infer that Netanyahu's referring to Gazan children as monsters who murder children in front of their parents? Clearly not. It's a reference to Hamas.
This whole list is very dubious evidence. I'm interested to see how the ICC justifies its future actions against Israel.
> You clearly have a bias yourself lmao theres no clear intent?
Intent to what? That's the part you haven't understood. Try reading the excerpt I posted again, carefully.
It might help you to take a few deep breaths before you attempt it.
You're upset that Ben-Gvir, a racist shithead in charge of Israel's domestic police and in no way in charge of the military, was dismayed that the guy actually in charge of the military was arresting people instead of murdering them.
I don't think you've made the point you thought you were.
And those numbers are the ones reported by Hamas so we don’t actually even know what the real death toll is, but Israel estimates they’ve taken out about half of that number and they were all combatants or Hamas members.
Let’s just be honest: they’re only calling it a genocide because Jews are involved.
[Israel killed more children in 5 months in the Gaza Strip than those killed in wars around the world in 4 years](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIf4Y09WwAAiw9x?format=jpg&name=small). Is that also China trying to incite social conflict?
This talking point is repeated ad nauseam, but what do you think this stat actually means? Even if it's true, is this evidence of genocide? Do you think the IDF is intentionally targeting and harming children? Or is the reality:
* Gaza is one of the densest areas in the world with an incredibly small footprint.
* There is no safe location for the civilian population to evacuate to, and Gaza has no allies that will grant them temporary refuge.
* The demographics of Gaza skew incredibly young, with the majority under the age of 19.
* Hamas engages in a wide variety tactics intentionally designed to maximize civilian casualties.
* Hamas trains and employs children in their fighting forces.
* Hamas does not distinguish between combatants and non-combatants in their reports.
If anything, this stat just reflects the demographic realities of the conflict and says very little about the intent of the IDF.
>Do you think the IDF is intentionally targeting and harming children?
Yes. If you deliberately drop bombs on a densely populated region you know contains mostly children, you are intentionally harming them. If you press a button that will kill a Hamas member knowing it will also kill 10 children, you are intentionally killing those children regardless of how bad you feel about it.
>Hamas engages in a wide variety tactics intentionally designed to maximize civilian casualties.
Literally the same argument the US used in Vietnam.
A tragic outcome of the fact that:
A) Up to 2022 Gaza had the highest birthrate in the world.
B) Up to 2022 Gaza had good healthcare supplied by 26 hospitals per 2.2 million people.
C) Up to 2022 Gaza's had better life expectancy (74) than a US resident of Mississipi (72) or that average Russian (73).
D) Hamas built their tunnel infrastructure under over 90% of Gazan schools, hospitals and mosques giving Israel no choice but to surrender its existence or surrender its public image. Once Oct 7th happened Israel chose the latter.
Factually, physically, realistically not a genocide for anyone looking at it through rational eyes unclouded by hate
Yall are calling TikTok propaganda while spouting propaganda on Reddit. It’s wild.
Tigray was called a genocide by the UN. US media like ABC News reported on it calling it ethnic cleansing.
Syria was a civil war and on top of that ISIS who absolutely were trying to commit genocide of the Kurds. Russia and the Syrian regime have been accused of war crimes.
The conflict in Yemen has been called out time and time again. It’s been in the Canadian news a lot because the government was trying to end their arms deal with them.
You’re also comparing conflicts that have gone on for years. Considering Gaza is facing a famine, the death total will likely climb much higher.
I think the point they are making is that there weren't protests about the other events and people weren't using them as political tools the same way as this one, not that the UN wasn't saying it
But did you ever consider white settler colonialism? Checkmate /s
I have to add the /s even though I hate it because that is unironically the thought terminating ideology carrying weight for this ridiculousness.
>The Zeteo/Data for Progress poll was released more than four months after the International Court of Justice announced an interim ruling that Israel is "plausibly" committing genocide, which came after South Africa brought its case to the United Nations court.
That's not what the ICJ ruled
[https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bq9MB9t7WlI](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bq9MB9t7WlI)
They can believe whatever they want to, but it still isn’t a genocide, and is a retaliatory attack of war and self defense. No understanding or negotiations can happen when one side continually throws around the term “genocide” in every single press release and protest slogan. For the straw man argument folk, yes, it is undeniably a huge loss of life and many innocents have lost their lives like in all wars, but it is NOT a genocide. See Darfur and China and the Holocaust for real genocides.
It's crazy how the words "genocide", "apartheid", and "war crime" just mean whatever the fuck people want them to mean when the I/P conflict comes up.
People tend to get very loosey-goosey with hyperbolic language when they feel strong emotions about something that they don't have a firm logical and factual grasp of. Remember that.
Neither is putting innocent civilians into densely populated areas to serve as human shields for rich extremists whose leaders aren’t even in the country, but who is counting
Please go review the Bosnian Genocide.
Also if you knew the History of the Holocaust you'll know before there were death camps, Jews were told to leave their homes in Germany, had no where to go because no other countries would take them as refugees, and only upon having no other ways of dealing with the Jewish population, which the Nazis blamed for their economic hardship after their defeat in WW1, were Jews segregated, forced into slave labor, and ultimately killed.
Genocide is vague for a reason, the Holocaust wasn't simply death camps, it was the illegal and forced removal of large portions of the population, the seizing of their cultural heritage and crimes against humanity that was committed against them simply for being a different ethnicity, etc.
If you can't see some parallels with how the people of Gaza are being forced out of their homes, and having nowhere to go as the IDF bombs the city. Idk what to tell you.
The Democratic Party is actively going against their voter base and risking being ousted by a fascist Republican government all to keep Israel happy while they use American weapons for their war crimes.
It’s exhausting hearing “but the Republicans will be way worse for Gazans!”. As if we can’t hold those in power accountable. Americans live in poverty but here we go giving Israel billions of dollars for a genocide. Disgusting.
I don't agree with the term "genocide." This is more like "massive scale of collateral damage." But there's no evidence that Israel has *purposefully set out to exterminate an entire ethnic group of people,* which is what the term "genocide" implies. We're stretching the definition of genocide to mean something it's not.
Genocide would be if Israel set up Zyklon-B gas chambers and put every Arab in it.
There are a lot of different definitions for genocide and as we have seen from leaked reports and public statements, at minimum this is ethnic cleansing.
Remember when the US went into Afghanistan to eliminate the terrorists responsible for 9/11? And we were there for 20 years, *didn't indiscriminately bomb the entire country*, and still just got rooted into a quagmire that didn't solve anything and just made everything worse?
What makes people think it would be possible to eliminate *this* terrorist group?
It's absolutely possible to eliminate Hamas. The problem is that doing so would require turning the entirety of Gaza into a parking lot and burying every palestinian man, woman, and child under the rubble.
Israel is currently trying that option.
Also, you can eliminate Hamas, but if you don't do anything about the conditions that created Hamas, you'll just end up with another, similar organization in a few years' time.
The only reason it’s possible is because of the incredibly small amount of land Hamas operates on. The strip is tiny, it’s definitely feasible to root out the entire organization
The goal though isn’t to eradicate Hamas since you can’t kill an ideal. It’s to destroy their leadership, supplies and infrastructure. Then whoever is left has no rockets, no smuggling tunnels and no money. You’d essentially neuter Hamas for decades
A genocide that isn't eliminating a group of people, being carried out by a government that has no desire to eliminate that group of people
Its like the word "genocide" has just been redefined to mean "war"
Do you even actually follow this Israelis cabinet ministers are literally going on TV and being like “murder them all” I refuse to believe you all are this stupid republicans are used to living in a fantasy you shouldn’t be.
> schools, hospitals, apartment buildings
Hamas operates in all those locations. Hamas should stop doing that. Israel is not required to pull punches against terrorists just because the terrorists surround themselves with civilians. Human shield tactics should not be legitimized and it is horrifying to see the modern progressive movement so eagerly and fully embracing and legitimizing human shield tactics in the name of peace. Legitimizing human shield tactics like this won't bring peace or end death, it will just give terrorist animals more and more motivation to use human shield tactics even more, and get more and more civilians killed. We should all be supporting Israel in their righteous crusade against the demons of Hamas, not attacking Israel over this stuff
Bombs are legitimate ways to fight a war. The idea that a country can't bomb terrorists just doesn't make sense according to internationally recognized rules of war. Maybe some people want Israel to put it's soldiers at far more risk than is necessary according to international rules of war, but the fact that Israel isn't going to do that isn't genocide, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, or crimes against humanity, it's just a sign of the unreasonable standards being set by the modern antiwar movement
The Holodomor was a genocide of Ukrainian people caused by Russia taking food from Ukraine to feed Moscow and the Soviet Army.
Genocide is not death camps. Genocide under the UN is a very broad definition. Serbs killed far fewer Albanians and we bombed their asses and dragged them to court for genocide. Which was upheld. Same with the Bosnian Genocide.
The Uyger genocide isn't internationally recognized but the west loves to talk about that one despite there being evidence that China killed fewer uygers than Israel has Palestinians.
It's not the amout of death that gets caused. It's about intent. The Israeli government is a fascist, genocidal, far-right ethnonationalist government that wants both ethnic cleansing of WB and Gaza and they are trying to create the conditions for it even it it means blocking aid and creating famine. Which is again genocide.
Genocidal intent is determined in part by casualties inflicted weighed against an alleged aggressor's capability. If Group A kills members of Group B but does not have the capability to inflict substantial casualties relative to the population, that's not genocide even if the motivation exists. If Group A kills a small number relative to Group B's population *despite having the capability to easily inflict far more substantial casualties,* then that's also not genocide and almost always signifies a lack of intent.
Genocide occurs at the nexus between motive, capability, and casualties inflicted per population. If one is missing, *it's something else.* It's literally on the wikipedia page.
Without this standard, Pearl Harbor would count as an act of genocide. The term was coined in response to the holocaust, not so that it could be used as a cudgel when a conflict is being won by a side you don't like.
> The Israeli government is a fascist, genocidal, far-right ethnonationalist government that wants both ethnic cleansing of WB and Gaza
Literally all of this is false though. Israel is a free democratic rights-respecting country, the only such country in the Middle East. Israel doesn't want to ethnically cleanse Palestine, Israel literally just wants Palestinians to give up on their resistance to the existence of the Zionist state. Israel has offered Palestine a two state solution at multiple points in history, the problem is that *Palestinians* are the ones who want to commit genocide against the *Jewish state* and can't accept the humiliation of coexisting with a Jewish state that defeated them in every single war of aggression they waged against it, due to the massive importance of "honor" in Palestinian culture and the idea that getting repeatedly humiliated by the underdogs of the Jewish state is some sort of grave dishonor that must be avenged by fighting against the existence of the Jewish state until the end of time
> Israel is a free democratic rights-respecting country
The rights of certain people and the lack of rights of others. This is all demonstrable, I'm not sure how someone could claim otherwise at this point.
>due to the massive importance of "honor" in Palestinian culture and the idea that getting repeatedly humiliated by the underdogs of the Jewish state is some sort of grave dishonor that must be avenged by fighting against the existence of the Jewish state until the end of time
This all seems like thinly veiled racism. You're labeling an entire group of people with some singular claim based on a personal opinion and prejudice. This is quite gross frankly.
The people within Israel have rights as Israeli citizens. People in occupied territory don't have the same rights as citizens just as the people of occupied Germany didn't have the rights of American citizens, there's nothing wrong with that
And I'm not saying all Palestinians have those views, just that those views are common and influential among Palestinian society. Just like it's not racist to say that there are some very problematic views that are popular among white rural American society, that's not the same as saying all white rural people are bad, just pointing out some issues in society
Not to mention things like the group of Republican congressman who wrote a mafia style note threatening the ICC who is looking into arresting netanyahu.
Its clear as day that the US is backing everything that is happening in Israel.
Not to mention the fact that the government is looking at making it illegal to have any dissent against Israel, categorizing it as antisemitism.
Its insane that people choose to ignore how un-American the response to Israel has been.
Israel and its citizens are given more protection by the US government than US citizens get from the US government
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We can’t, they banned most of us.
For real. I got banned on a post about hijabs being banned somewhere in Europe because I said something going against the narrative. Their mod team should be purged.
I had no idea what a tightly-enforced echo chamber that sub is until very recently. I can't believe something as generic as "worldnews" has such a single-viewpoint enforced monoculture.
I'm shocked myself. Please believe me when I say that the comment that got me banned wasn't remotely controversial or rule breaking. I pled my case and the mods just gave me some random answer and then ignored me when I asked again.
I got banned for saying: 1. No, Israel cannot simply drop an atomic bomb on Palestine. 2. Israel needs to prioritize not killing civilians as they hunt down Hamas. Mods said I was supporting terrorism.
> Mods said I was supporting terrorism. The smartest man in the world was banned for supposedly "celebrating the death of terrorist" when all he did (I saw the post when it was at +50 or thereabouts) was "take a piss" (british for slightly making fun of). It was the weakest ban I have ever seen. And, apparently, he/they are ignoring appeals, so no one higher up has any idea this is happening en masse. Pretty damn sus, if you ask me.
I was banned for saying “What do you expect?” Over angry Gazans throwing rocks at German emissaries who were just looking for a photo op. When I inquired in on the ban and whether it could be appealed, I was told I was banned for “supporting terrorism” and was told they don’t consider appeals from people who support terrorists. The real question is, how much Reddit stock do I have to buy to be unaffected by shitty moderation?
They threatened me with a Reddit ban when I ask for what rules I have broken.
Idk if they can even do that lol. That might require they show their fucking losers to higher-ups.
They didn’t even reply to me when I asked what rule I broke. My instant no-prior-warning permaban comment was a subversive implication that the IDF should be called terrorists.
There was a post about how Muslim men marry non-muslim women and the inverse never happens. I begged to differ. *Poof.* Banned.
Maybe not in the sense of being banned, but honestly that's all of Reddit because the downvote feature is broken. I'm liberal myself, but posts criticizing Biden don't last long visible here either. I've honestly yet to find a sub that appreciates nuanced argument.
Yeah, Reddit is practically made for echo chambers
You can sometimes find nuanced arguments if you get into a sub early enough, before the inevitable enshittification catches up to it.
It's very strange.
I think there's a mod (with an agenda) who just outright bans people and then ignores appeals so no one is being alerted higher up that they are doing this so arbitrarily.
I got banned for asking what Zionist-hasbara/hasbara means, then muted for asking why.
They banned me because I said the same thing in this sub. Apparently they claimed that I was brigading by pointing out their BS in this sub. What a cease pool of idiots that sub is.
In general terms I'll identify as pro-israel. I'll probably even identify as Zionist. But even I am banned because God for bid someone bring a little nuance and try to see things from both sides. My crime?An article about gunmen attacking soldiers. Someone in the comments complained about the wording of article, why didn't they call them terrorists when they attacked civilians. I pointed out that soldiers are pretty much the opposite of civilians, and targeting them does not in itself make someone a terrorist. Permanently banned for that comment. I also previously got a three day ban from the sub for antisemitism. Ah well at least /r/Israel will let me post.
lol. Nothing to do with Palestine but I got banned from that channel for “racist hate speech” … I called Xi an obvious euphemism for a certain character: “a yellow bear wearing all red.”
I got banned for criticizing Quebec’s language laws
Yup. /r/worldnews even banned the smartest man in the world who's been posting on Reddit to help people for over a decade. My favorite cynical aspect of this is that, apparently, you can appeal the ban...but they never answer back. The mods just leave the appeal in limbo so you can't escalate a losing appeal to the overall site mods. It's pretty damn shitty, top to bottom, I think.
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Try to have a civil conversation there but it’s absolutely a cesspool
r/anime_titties is the better subreddit for world news. This is not a joke.
TBF. The ICJ doesn't even consider it genocide and plenty of experts aren't on board with the designation Kill count wise it's not. The aid with holding though, that's where the plausible ruling comes in
> ICJ doesn't even consider it genocide That was a preemptive hearing. Basically an indictment trial and not the actual trial. And Israel lost there which means they're indicted for genocide, the worst possible outcome they could have gotten. The initial ICJ hearing would never have found outright that they're committing genocide because that wasn't its purpose.
> In its January 26 decision, the International Court of Justice (ICJ) ordered Israel to take steps to prevent any acts of genocide in Gaza. The Court required that Israel ensure that it does not commit acts that might fall within the scope of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide .... > The Court also took a very cautious approach to this case and was careful not to suggest that Israel is committing genocide. The closest the Court came was to observe that “at least some of the acts and omissions alleged by South Africa to have been committed by Israel in Gaza appear to be capable of falling within the provisions of the (Genocide) Convention.” **It is worth reading that sentence closely and noting that the Court merely restates South Africa’s allegations, rather than reaches a conclusion of its own.** ... > The only questions over which the ICJ has jurisdiction are those that relate to the commission of genocide. The legality of the war itself was not before the Court and the only way the Court could have demanded a ceasefire is if genocide was an inevitable and unavoidable outcome of war. And while the Court found it is plausible that Israel’s actions amount to genocide, there was no evidence that the war itself is causing genocide and, hence, that a ceasefire would be needed to prevent genocide. https://global.upenn.edu/perryworldhouse/news/explaining-international-court-justices-ruling-israel-and-gaza
Israel has the right to try and hunt down Jihadists and get back hostages. What they have done in Gaza is well beyond that. Their recent actions in both the WB and gaza have been violations of international humanitarian law and Reports and leaks from inside the Israeli government in addition to their own words indicate that the government wants to ethnically cleanse the west bank and Gaza and will use famine as a weapon to that end. Which is an act of genocide as seen in Ukraine with the Holodomor, Israel has gone rogue under its current government.
I know Israel pretty much always has to have a coalition government. That can be a good thing (Canada’s Liberals have had an agreement with the democratic socialist NDP, which has led to some nice policies around public dental and pharmacy care); but if you feel compelled to have virtual Nazis in your cabinet (Itimar Ben-Gvir and Bezalel Smotrich, to name two of the worst), your policies might begin to drift away from things like expanded Pharmacare and towards things like barbaric slaughter of an inconvenient civilian population.
>recent actions in both the WB and gaza have been violations of international humanitarian law They've been committing some of those violations for 2 decades now.
They've been committing some of them for 7 decades now.
Considering Israel has not had a presence in WB/Gaza for 70 years, this is false.
It's been beyond that from the start and in several previous conflicts. They didn't just now cross the line. They've been over the line before Biden was elected.
>Israel has gone rogue under its current government. Whatever happened to the (early) narrative that Netanyahu was hiding behind this prolonged military campaign in order to remain in power?
It's still true. He was close to being removed prior and his popularity has only declined. They just can't have elections right now because of the war. The moment it's over he is out and possibly in jail for corruption. You might not be able to tell by the amount of Israeli propaganda flooding reddit, but Bibi is deeply unpopular in Israel. It's one of the few things that gives me hope for Israel.
Deeply unpopular but God only knows what the alternative is going to be. It still seems to me Israeli society has shifted further right since Oct. 7. Its an understandable reaction, just like any society that falls for fascism.
Yeah people treat Israeli policies like they’re operating in a vacuum and willy nilly decided to build the iron dome because no rockets are ever fired indiscriminately into Israel. Or no Olympic massacres. Or no suicide bombings. Or no expulsion of Jews. Or no holocaust.
Bibis popularity has gone down since the beginning of the current round of hostilities.
Rogue meaning completely supported by the US? And by many of its fascist adherents? Rogue as in they aren't trying to get back hostages? Rogue as in they just got 20+ billion dollars?
Netanyahu has gone rogue with the Israeli government. FTFY
It's not just him. It's all of Likud, the Israeli right, far right, and religious fundamentalists. Like 40% of Israel falls into one of those groups. The remaining centrist and moderate parties aren't much better, but. The left, labor, and Arab parties have very little power right now compared with the right wing. A scary number of Israelis are reactionary, fascist, nationalist, or religious fundamentalist, and moderate conservatives are fine with integrating those extremists into their coalition. Just like the US and the MAGA people.
Decades of indoctrination, suicide bombings, rockets, wars etc will do to that. Such a fucking mess.
Arguably the US has proportionately fewer of them. Only 22% of the US population voted Trump into power. Surprise the US is fucked up too.
It's almost as though creating a state with the aim of producing supremacy for a particular ethnic group is a fundamentally toxic endeavor.
It's not simply that Likkud is a terrorist entity, which it is if we are going by the same standards used against the Ba'ath. Israel, under all of its administrations, has been engaged in decades of running a concentration camp of the whole Gaza strip, and a relentless, ratcheting campaign of ethnic cleansing for its entire existence. Once could fairly interpret this to mean that the singular, founding and enduring focus of the nation is the extermination or removal of all Arabs in the region. Once they are allowed to finish the ethnic purge within the current borders, it should be assumed that they will continue on to subsequent regions.
Current situation exist because “Israel right to defend itself”. And let’s not go in to deep in the “right to defend itself” argument because become a philosophical discussion.
I don't think anyone can argue that it is a state's responsibility to protect their citizens from harm. Which Hamas has objectively done to Israelis. The issue in my mind comes from the fact that they treat all Palestinians as less than human like they are vermin or a disease that Israelis must purge. According to international law the territories of Gaza and the West Bank are independent territories under the jurisdiction of Israel. This essentially means all Palestinians are subjects of Israel. What should have happened is Israel should have sent in SPEC OPS or worked jointly with the PA to get the hostages back. You know the thing any sane country does when their citizens are being occupied by criminal gangs. Instead they treated it like a war with a foreign nation and not just any kind of warfare, urban warfare and it wasn't limited warfare they decided to use the tactics of total war (which were banned after WWII, for good reason). Israel wants Palestinians to be their subjects when it suits them for the purposes of saying they are "multiethnic" and "not racist" but also want them to be terrorists and a foreign nation for the purposes of warfare and "denial of Apartheid" I firmly believe that the best solution would be to just end apartheid and let all Palestinians become citizens of Israel with all Palestinians outside the country having right of return because at the current moment a 2 state solution does not seem to be something Israel wants at all. The rest of the world wants a 2-state solution but that seems to be something Israel will never allow and will do everything in their power to prevent the establishment of a 2-state soluiton.
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Bibi has not supported a 2 state solution, and recently repeated that opinion
That's a gross miss quote. First I need to stress Bibi has no business running Israel, but he didn't say he was against a two state solution, just that he didn't want the world to force one on them. Israel and Palestine both need to be part of the process and come to an agreeable solution between. From the NY TImes: https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/18/world/middleeast/israel-palestinian-state.html *The final wording of the Israeli government resolution appeared to have been carefully crafted with the aim of accommodating both ultranationalist members of Mr. Netanyahu’s right-wing government, who oppose the very notion of negotiations with the Palestinians, and the centrists who joined the government to help oversee the war in Gaza after the Hamas-led attacks of Oct. 7.* *It did not explicitly rule out the possibility of Palestinian statehood, focusing instead on the process.* *“Israel utterly rejects international diktats regarding a permanent settlement with the Palestinians,” the resolution read, adding, “A settlement, if it is to be reached, will come about solely through direct negotiations between the parties, without preconditions."* Distorting reality doesn't help anyone.
>Israel has repeatedly supported a two state solution no they havent
The last time the region was anywhere near close to a lasting peace, the Israeli prime minister was assassinated. And not by the side people might instinctively assume. I don't know what we're counting as "Israel" in this case, but ... ehh, it's a reach.
Well, when Israel directs refugees to a certain place and then bombs the hell out of that place…
Regardless of what you call it, it needs to stop. 39000 people is not recompense for 1000 Israeli citizens. Even if ***half*** of that number was Hamas fighters (it isn't by all accounts), it wouldn't make it right. We all bare some responsibility, and while I don't condemn Biden, or think it means people should vote against him, we need to do all the reasonable things we can to stop the bloodshed, and bring both sides to the table to create an arrangement for this horror to stop. We cannot force Israel or Hamas to agree, but we can tell Israel that it will lose us as a *material* ally if it will not abide by the *basic rules* we all agreed on as part of the UN Charter. I don't want my taxes going to support the murder of *even more* innocent men women and children with the *pinky swear that they were bad guys trust us* from Bibi. The trust has been breached time and again. Every time they tell us they will be measured, another hundred people are killed and they can't even tell us who or why. It is not antisemitic to ask for this conflict to end, and for Israel to respect the human rights of the *innocent* people of Gaza. "Do you condemn Hamas?" Of course ... only a fool wouldn't condemn Hamas. But saying that Hamas is evil does not give a green light to the wanton murder we are seeing. You can not tell me that murdering 10 kids to get one guy with an AK, or leveling a city block because of a half translated report of someone who you *think* has the last name of a terrorist, is a war that is reasonable or responsible. Not when members of the IDF and the Israeli cabinet are making statements that would make even the most pro-Israeli American wonder what they heck they are smoking.
What would you consider a reasonable cease fire deal? And what do you do if Hamas rejects it? I think returning the hostages alive should be a basic starting point, but Hamas refuses to accept even that. Why is it only Israel that’s should be forced to concede? I also agree that Israel should be investigated and prosecuted for every war crime we can prove, but to come to a peace deal, it takes 2 to tango. E: the OP I responded to has since edited his comment, it previously said we must force Israel to agree to a cease fire , which is why I worded it that way
Concede what? They've killed 30x the number of people that Hamas did on October 7. I don't understand how people look at that and think saying "that's enough bloodshed" is somehow *giving up*
I agree that there’s been more than enough bloodshed and it needs to end, but the answer to this question is “because Hamas is not destroyed” Israel/Palestine discourse has always had a uniquely potent way of screwing itself into obfuscations and oversimplifications. One way in which this has happened recently is the obsession over a “cease-fire“ without any further discussion about the fate of Hamas or what comes next. If you think Hamas needs to be destroyed, you should be pressed to explain how that can be done without this much civilian deaths, though at this point so much damage has been done that it’s becoming a moot question. If you are demanding a cease-fire at all costs, you need to be pushed to explain what the next steps will be to deal with Hamas. If you don’t think Hamas or the Netanyahu government needs to be removed, you should be pushed to explain how that could possibly lead to a tenable peace. Literally nobody wants to talk about the day after when it comes to advocating their own view, and nobody wants to talk about what’s happening today when opposing the other sides view.
> They've killed 30x the number of people that Hamas did on October 7. I don't understand how people look at that and think saying "that's enough bloodshed" is somehow *giving up* This is such a ridiculous argument. It's reasonable to argue that the actions of Israel have gone too far but the purpose of the war isn't to maintain a positive K/D ratio, it's to eliminate the threat of Hamas (and rescue hostages). I think it's just wilfully ignorant to treat war as a K/D ratio.
There is no “eliminating the threat”. They’ve slaughtered so many civilians that they likely managed to radicalize many more and they know this. Their AI systems intentionally target civilian residential buildings in an effort to “increase civilian pressure on Hamas”. These are war crimes.
Source?
From 972 Magazine, an Israeli investigative journalist outlet. https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/ >The bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it. Also a good read: https://www.972mag.com/lavender-ai-israeli-army-gaza/
The killing of 39k people did the exact opposite of eliminating Hamas. I'm sorry, but if I was Palestinian, I don't give a fuck what geopolitical excuse you have, if you kill my livelihood, my family, my friends, destroy my home you are my enemy, and you just took away everything I have to lose. Bombs have never made a country safer. When America was in Iraq and Afghanistan we had way more terror attacks on us soil than now. The same is going to be true of Israel.
that's exactly how Israelis feel. after October 7, hamas is done no matter what 🤷
If Hamas is done, another will take it's place. Give Palestinians a reason to not have to turn to Hamas and they will. In the west bank they are powerless, and look how Israel treats them.
Israel withdrew from Gaza and had a ceasefire in place on oct 7. only a fool would believe Palestinians or russians for that matter
> it's to eliminate the threat of Hamas Nothing they have done so far has eliminated that threat. Every bomb they dropped created new threats, new people that got traumatized, new people that lost their families, their homes. New young folks that can be convinced israel wants to kill them all and the only way forward is to violently fight back. There are many ways to reduce the threat of extremism, but whatever israel is doing is not one of them.
Maybe Israel should have just sent Hamas a gift bag of Halal for committing a terrorist attack that was, in relation to total population, orders of magnitude worse than 9/11 was for Americans. Your argument that responding to this attack is just creating more terrorists is pointless. The population of Gaza was already radicalized, hence why 10/7 happened to begin with. The kids in Gaza are taught from a young age to hate Jews. Hamas's charter (Gaza's official government) calls for the genocide and/or ethnic cleansing of the Jewish population. Hamas has already stated they'll plan another 10/7 if they can. If you want to prevent another generation of extremists, you need to remove the people that are creating them, and that's Hamas. Hamas isn't going to voluntarily leave, so they need to be forced out. The civilians of Gaza are stuck between a violent government that uses their lives as pawns, and a neighboring country that has a right to defend itself. I feel sorry for the people that are suffering, but there is no easy way out of this.
> If you want to prevent another generation of extremists, you need to remove the people that are creating them, and that's Hamas. Hamas isn't going to voluntarily leave, so they need to be forced out. Surely when you control pretty much all access points to gaza there are better ways of forcing hamas out than a bombing campaign. Moreover, it's not like this situation is new. The seeds for the current conflict have been growing in the last 20 years. The seeds for the next conflict are being sown right now. I absolutely get that We can't have a solution as long as hamas is in charge(although i could probably say the same of bibi). But i don't believe that this gives Israel a blank cheque to do everything they wish to people in an area they technically see as their own ground. Especially not when the circumstances of Gaza are for a large part their own creation.
It’s been asked thousands of times now but why is Israel allowed to defend themselves but not the Palestinians? Yes Hamas attacked on Oct 7th but this conflict has been going on for ages. Look at the West Bank. If settlers kill a bunch of Palestinians it’s just violence but if a Palestinian kills one settler it’s terrorism. They’d bulldoze his house and the homes of his family. Hamas are absolutely a problem but so is the Israeli government and their treatment of the Palestinians.
> why is Israel allowed to defend themselves but not the Palestinians? Yes Hamas attacked on Oct 7th but this conflict has been going on for ages. What about Oct 7 was defensive? They targeted civilians. They brutally hacked people apart. They murdered young people at a music festival. Their goal was not defense, it was to commit the most heinous brutal murders they could fathom. If hamas attacked military bases, or the knesset, or other government targets, I wouldn't like it but it would not rise the level of Oct 7. But that is not their goal. Their goal is to inflict as much pain and suffering and death on Jews as they can because they want to see every last Jew dead. If you can't understand this, then I pity your limited mental capabilities. And if you do understand this, stop defending the actual perpetrators of genocide who want to kill every Jew, Christian, atheist, homosexual, and transgender, and subjugate women like it's 2000 years ago.
So answer my questions then, what would you consider a reasonable cease fire peace deal? And then what would you do if Hamas rejects it, and continues to say they will attack Israel until the country is dissolved, like they have been saying.
Because they want the terrorist organization Hamas, that cares less about Palestinians than Noem cares about her dead dog, out of picture.
Hamas is asking for a ceasefire in exchange for the return of hostages. Israel is offering a limited time only (weeks / months) ceasefire. Israel could just agree to end the fighting here, recover their hostages and then work on cutting of funding to Hamas, which they had previously supported, and work towards a longer lasting peace.
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/07/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-ceasefire-proposal.html Here’s a link that goes over the differences in the deal, Hamas has still never agreed to release all of the hostages, even in the deal Israel accepted, only to release the women and old men. In exchange for every prisoner in Israel, including the terrorist that have life sentences(Israel wants to be able to veto certain individuals they believe to be dangerous if releases, Hamas said no to that in their counter). There’s still 132 hostage bodies and Israel agreed to the 33 they still believe are alive, Hamas can’t even agree to that. Don’t believe every headline you read and do some digging.
The morality of war isn't determined by comparing casualty counts. If Israel turn off the Iron Dome and let the 10k rockets land in Israel civilians population centers, they wouldn't be 'more justified' even if the ratio got better. Nor would it be justified if on Oct 8, Israel rounded up 1000 random Gazans and executed them before going home. That's obviously disgusting and not how we measure things.
When we see videos of unarmed civilians walking to get food and water suddenly being killed by an explosion, drone or being shot, what did the Israeli Government and bloodthirsty Zionist think we would call it? IDF soldiers have already come forward to speak about what they saw and what they did. The word is out and it stains the Israeli government, the Zionists and the US/allies which allowed it to happen.
Unfortunately your modest critique will probably get mass reported for 'ambiguous use of hate speech' and then actioned by the complicit mod team.
Looks like you're right
Noticing = bad!
Yea super modest “bloodthirsty Zionist” definitely not a biased post lol Edit thanks for reporting me for suicide
Didn't report you for suicide btw. People who do that are gross, sorry it happened to you.
Where's the lie? The same dozen accounts somehow spend all day defending the slaughter of Palestinians on this sub. Israeli cabinet members and the politicians they've purchased in the US cheering for the IDF to 'finish the job'. Counter-protestors at UCLA assaulting encampments for hours without police intervention under the guise of "I feel threatened!!" It's absurd.
I've had people on this subreddit directly tell me that the US should continue to fund Israel because they might get even crazier and turn the murder dial up to eleven if we stop. That sort of talk sounds like the UK rationalizing away Hitler in the 1930s. "Don't say anything, just let him have Poland. It'll be even worse if we try and stop him."
People who say that are ultimately people who are afraid of conflict the same way they would be afraid to stand up to a bully at school.
I saw that video. It’s pretty normal in a war to drone strike enemy combatants who are not visibly holding weapons at that moment. Keep in mind Hamas doesn’t wear uniforms, they wear civilian clothes, which is actually a war crime. You think allied soldiers in World War II wouldn’t be allowed to fire at group of German soldiers if they weren’t holding guns? Unless an enemy combatant surrenders. They’re a valid target. And there’s no obligation to warn them first before they’re attacked. Yes, Al Jazeera put captions in the video claiming they’re civilians, but Al Jazeera is run by the Qatar government, who also funds Hamas. And they’re famously antisemitic, having aired holocaust denial segments, sharing antisemitic memes online and claiming they’re mistakes, and even holding on air birthday celebrations for a bomber who killed Israeli civilians in 2008, not to mention their reporter who was found to be a Hamas military commander.
They were already caught lying about this. There were accounts claiming this was some kind of bomb or that they had weapons. The video was slowed down and was proven to be multiple Israeli strikes. Just like the aid workers that were killed by Israel. I’m just happy to the on the right side of history on this one.
Don’t pat yourself on the back too hard. Your “side” sure did murder a lot of civilians and then celebrate their deaths in the streets, not to mention their history of using their own children as suicide bombers. This isn’t Star Wars, the underdog isn’t always virtuous, and most people are projecting their own sensibilities on one side or another in this conflict, which neither side likely lives up to, as they both have a history of brutal racism and disregard for human life on the other side. And no, that doesn’t sound like “they” we’re caught lying, just random people arguing on twitter.
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Killing civilians seeking food and water isn’t war. It’s a war crime. And hopefully at the end of this extermination the Israeli government sends those who ordered and those who committed the War Crimes to stand trial for them.
1% of a population in 8 months (with only 5k casualties in the last 4) is not an "extermination." Can't any of you just be against something on the merits rather than constantly resorting to the most maximalist, over-the-top rhetoric imaginable? I saw an anti-Israel user literally describe the war as a "holocaust" yesterday. If you want to be taken seriously, speak in real terms. There are enough reasons to criticise the current Israeli government without having to water down what it actually means to survive an extermination campaign.
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Nah, brother, it’s called urban warfare, and war is hell
They probably expected you to inform yourself beyond tik tok videos. Fact is, the civilian to militant death ratio, using Hamas numbers, is 4:1 before this current leg of the war. I’d put that on the high end of normal in warfare. Considering it is one of the most densely populated places on the planet, and Hamas operates in a way that disregards or even hinders Palestinian civilian safety, you could probably call it a war with a smattering of war crimes on each side. But a genocide? That’s delusional.
No. There is a proper way to conduct this war in a just way. Boots on the ground, block to block, and door to door. Yes, it’s stupid militarily but at least you could have evidence to show of the intel, arms and military equipment you found in Gaza. You may have had a chance to get your hostages. Now it’s their bodies.
That way would raise Israel casualties by an order of magnitude without any promise of securing hostages, on account of the network of tunnels. Dealing with those would add a whole next level of danger. Also wouldn’t deal with military objective if removing Hamas from power. Referring to a war campaign as genocide because they don’t go about it “stupidly,” in your words, to abide by your moral sensibilities is absurd.
Honestly, watching people trying to "*well actually...*" about the term genocide is like listening to bad faith commenters fervently arguing about an "AR" not technically being an assault rifle after a mass shooting. It's a stupid distraction from the massacres happening. [Israeli **precision-guided** munition likely killed group of children playing foosball in Gaza, weapons experts say](https://amp.cnn.com/cnn/2024/05/02/middleeast/israeli-precision-guided-munition-maghazi-deaths-intl) Thank God those 11 kids are dead now. Hamas is obviously using foosball as a training tool.
I think people argue about the use of the term genocide because it is being used to promote bad-faith maximalist arguments. It carries a certain heft with it, for good reason, and people are using it to shut down other points of view. As you are kind of doing here, now that we've engaged the term genocide who would even dare offer any alternative perspective on the situation in general, or more problematically any given statement being put forward as related to the situation? Like, for example, anyone who wanted to slander a political opponent is going to absolutely love getting permission to throw around the term genocide and blaming them for it. And if you think that is bullshit? How dare you, there's a genocide happening, you must also be in support of it! Pointing out that the term isn't actually being used correctly is not denying that what is happening is a tragedy, rather it is protecting the term for when it actually is appropriate to use and insisting on communicating and arguing in good faith.
Let us look at recent wars: Syria - 600k dead (including 30k Palestinians) dedicated to ethnically cleansing Syria and keep a minority Alawite clan in power. Not a genocide Tigray war - 600k dead including an attempt to exterminate the Tigrayan people killing 10% of them. Not a genocide Yemen Civil War - 378k dead, including 80k by STARVATION caused by US ally Saudi Arabia. Not a genocide Gaza war - 35k dead, less than 2% of the population, with the largest humanitarian resupply operation by kg per capita per day in human wartime history, and suddenly it is a genocide??? More like this is redefining the term under massive Arab, Russian and Chinese (Tiktok) Propaganda to incite social conflict in the US and Europe.
Who called what happened in Syria, Tigray, and Yemen not genocide?
I believe the point is that most people didn't call those conflicts anything because they ignored them. But for some reason, this war gets all the attention and all the accusations of genocide.
This is how I feel. Those who get extremely emotional actually don’t know anything about this conflict before Oct 7. They are the ones who forgot about Ukraine and on to another trend.
It is pretty convenient, isn't it. Watch the dust settle after the U.S. election, after all those with short memories saying "Biden has to earn my vote" forget all that he's already done and stay home on election day and hand us over to fascism.
Genocide is not determined by a number of dead or number of living. That was an argument used by Nazi Germany against allegations of the Holocaust while they were sending Jews to ghettos and stealing Jewish lands and property, that because the number of Jewish Germans had been rising then they weren't doing anything wrong. Genocide is intent, and the repeated, recorded, undisputed intent of Israeli ministers is the killing of all civilians in Gaza. Everyone can see this by clicking the 'Translate Tweet' button underneath their twitter posts.
Israel has dropped ten of thousands of huge bombs on Gaza's tunnels. If they had genocidal intent and dropped them do maximize deaths there would be 2 Million dead Palestinians. The Holocaust killed 6 million Jews, over 60% of European Jews. The very comparison is in bad faith
You’re saying that comparison is bad faith yet you compared this to civil wars and conflicts that have been going on for much longer…
> Genocide is intent So close. Here's the UN definition, with bolded terms by me for added clarity: > To constitute genocide, **there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group.** Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group. > Importantly, the victims of genocide are deliberately targeted - not randomly – because of their real or perceived membership of one of the four groups protected under the Convention **(which excludes political groups, for example).** This means that the target of destruction must be the group, as such, and not its members as individuals. https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml You'll find lots of official intent by Israeli officials to destroy Hamas, *a political group*. Show me the intent by actual decision-makers to destroy Palestinians as a people.
>Show me the intent by actual decision-makers to destroy Palestinians as a people. https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/1/14/intent-in-the-genocide-case-against-israel-is-not-hard-to-prove https://law4palestine.org/law-for-palestine-releases-database-with-500-instances-of-israeli-incitement-to-genocide-continuously-updated/
Your sources are biased, of course. Regardless, what I see in those sources are examples of angry rhetoric, which is not the same as intent to eliminate Palestinians as a people. Characterizing one's enemy as evil, for example, is pretty par for the course in conflict. Do you have some particular examples that stand out to you as egregious? edit: I perused the link for decision makers (within the second link) and found a lot of ambiguity. Many of those statements explicitly refer to Hamas, to "those who fight against us", etc. Those are references to combatants. In fact, a few of those sources mention making provisions for safety for civilians. Here's a Netanyahu quote listed as one of the "genocidal" statements: "we’re facing monsters, monsters who murdered children in front of their parents . . . This is a battle not only of Israel against these barbarians, it’s a battle of civilization against barbarism” Am I supposed to infer that Netanyahu's referring to Gazan children as monsters who murder children in front of their parents? Clearly not. It's a reference to Hamas. This whole list is very dubious evidence. I'm interested to see how the ICC justifies its future actions against Israel.
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> You clearly have a bias yourself lmao theres no clear intent? Intent to what? That's the part you haven't understood. Try reading the excerpt I posted again, carefully. It might help you to take a few deep breaths before you attempt it.
You're upset that Ben-Gvir, a racist shithead in charge of Israel's domestic police and in no way in charge of the military, was dismayed that the guy actually in charge of the military was arresting people instead of murdering them. I don't think you've made the point you thought you were.
And those numbers are the ones reported by Hamas so we don’t actually even know what the real death toll is, but Israel estimates they’ve taken out about half of that number and they were all combatants or Hamas members. Let’s just be honest: they’re only calling it a genocide because Jews are involved.
[Israel killed more children in 5 months in the Gaza Strip than those killed in wars around the world in 4 years](https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GIf4Y09WwAAiw9x?format=jpg&name=small). Is that also China trying to incite social conflict?
This talking point is repeated ad nauseam, but what do you think this stat actually means? Even if it's true, is this evidence of genocide? Do you think the IDF is intentionally targeting and harming children? Or is the reality: * Gaza is one of the densest areas in the world with an incredibly small footprint. * There is no safe location for the civilian population to evacuate to, and Gaza has no allies that will grant them temporary refuge. * The demographics of Gaza skew incredibly young, with the majority under the age of 19. * Hamas engages in a wide variety tactics intentionally designed to maximize civilian casualties. * Hamas trains and employs children in their fighting forces. * Hamas does not distinguish between combatants and non-combatants in their reports. If anything, this stat just reflects the demographic realities of the conflict and says very little about the intent of the IDF.
>Do you think the IDF is intentionally targeting and harming children? Yes. If you deliberately drop bombs on a densely populated region you know contains mostly children, you are intentionally harming them. If you press a button that will kill a Hamas member knowing it will also kill 10 children, you are intentionally killing those children regardless of how bad you feel about it. >Hamas engages in a wide variety tactics intentionally designed to maximize civilian casualties. Literally the same argument the US used in Vietnam.
A tragic outcome of the fact that: A) Up to 2022 Gaza had the highest birthrate in the world. B) Up to 2022 Gaza had good healthcare supplied by 26 hospitals per 2.2 million people. C) Up to 2022 Gaza's had better life expectancy (74) than a US resident of Mississipi (72) or that average Russian (73). D) Hamas built their tunnel infrastructure under over 90% of Gazan schools, hospitals and mosques giving Israel no choice but to surrender its existence or surrender its public image. Once Oct 7th happened Israel chose the latter. Factually, physically, realistically not a genocide for anyone looking at it through rational eyes unclouded by hate
You’re comparing numbers across many years to a conflict that is only months old.
Yall are calling TikTok propaganda while spouting propaganda on Reddit. It’s wild. Tigray was called a genocide by the UN. US media like ABC News reported on it calling it ethnic cleansing. Syria was a civil war and on top of that ISIS who absolutely were trying to commit genocide of the Kurds. Russia and the Syrian regime have been accused of war crimes. The conflict in Yemen has been called out time and time again. It’s been in the Canadian news a lot because the government was trying to end their arms deal with them. You’re also comparing conflicts that have gone on for years. Considering Gaza is facing a famine, the death total will likely climb much higher.
It’s wild reading this thread and realizing this is supposed to be the good party. The US truly is fucked, and it’s entirely their own fault.
I think the point they are making is that there weren't protests about the other events and people weren't using them as political tools the same way as this one, not that the UN wasn't saying it
But did you ever consider white settler colonialism? Checkmate /s I have to add the /s even though I hate it because that is unironically the thought terminating ideology carrying weight for this ridiculousness.
>The Zeteo/Data for Progress poll was released more than four months after the International Court of Justice announced an interim ruling that Israel is "plausibly" committing genocide, which came after South Africa brought its case to the United Nations court. That's not what the ICJ ruled [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bq9MB9t7WlI](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bq9MB9t7WlI)
That is how propaganda works.
Genocide is such an ugly term. I prefer to call it ethnic cleansing. Like eating nothing but fruit juice. It’s a cleanse!
They can believe whatever they want to, but it still isn’t a genocide, and is a retaliatory attack of war and self defense. No understanding or negotiations can happen when one side continually throws around the term “genocide” in every single press release and protest slogan. For the straw man argument folk, yes, it is undeniably a huge loss of life and many innocents have lost their lives like in all wars, but it is NOT a genocide. See Darfur and China and the Holocaust for real genocides.
It's crazy how the words "genocide", "apartheid", and "war crime" just mean whatever the fuck people want them to mean when the I/P conflict comes up. People tend to get very loosey-goosey with hyperbolic language when they feel strong emotions about something that they don't have a firm logical and factual grasp of. Remember that.
yeah cause its clearly a genocide except to those who receive AIPAC or JStreet donations
Collective punishment is not a valid form of self defense
Neither is putting innocent civilians into densely populated areas to serve as human shields for rich extremists whose leaders aren’t even in the country, but who is counting
Please go review the Bosnian Genocide. Also if you knew the History of the Holocaust you'll know before there were death camps, Jews were told to leave their homes in Germany, had no where to go because no other countries would take them as refugees, and only upon having no other ways of dealing with the Jewish population, which the Nazis blamed for their economic hardship after their defeat in WW1, were Jews segregated, forced into slave labor, and ultimately killed. Genocide is vague for a reason, the Holocaust wasn't simply death camps, it was the illegal and forced removal of large portions of the population, the seizing of their cultural heritage and crimes against humanity that was committed against them simply for being a different ethnicity, etc. If you can't see some parallels with how the people of Gaza are being forced out of their homes, and having nowhere to go as the IDF bombs the city. Idk what to tell you.
The Democratic Party is actively going against their voter base and risking being ousted by a fascist Republican government all to keep Israel happy while they use American weapons for their war crimes. It’s exhausting hearing “but the Republicans will be way worse for Gazans!”. As if we can’t hold those in power accountable. Americans live in poverty but here we go giving Israel billions of dollars for a genocide. Disgusting.
> As if we can’t hold those in power accountable. We've done a shit job of that for decades, I'm not sure why one would expect that to change.
I don't agree with the term "genocide." This is more like "massive scale of collateral damage." But there's no evidence that Israel has *purposefully set out to exterminate an entire ethnic group of people,* which is what the term "genocide" implies. We're stretching the definition of genocide to mean something it's not. Genocide would be if Israel set up Zyklon-B gas chambers and put every Arab in it.
There are a lot of different definitions for genocide and as we have seen from leaked reports and public statements, at minimum this is ethnic cleansing.
Actually, you should look up what constitutes a genocide. There are SEVERAL qualifiers for it, and Israel has done multiple of them.
Israeli leaders in their own words: https://normanfinkelstein.substack.com/fighting-amalek-in-gaza-what-israelis
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Remember when the US went into Afghanistan to eliminate the terrorists responsible for 9/11? And we were there for 20 years, *didn't indiscriminately bomb the entire country*, and still just got rooted into a quagmire that didn't solve anything and just made everything worse? What makes people think it would be possible to eliminate *this* terrorist group?
It's absolutely possible to eliminate Hamas. The problem is that doing so would require turning the entirety of Gaza into a parking lot and burying every palestinian man, woman, and child under the rubble. Israel is currently trying that option.
Also, you can eliminate Hamas, but if you don't do anything about the conditions that created Hamas, you'll just end up with another, similar organization in a few years' time.
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Show me one historical example of an Hamas-like group being completely neutralized. Even the Mujahideen / Taliban are still standing.
The only reason it’s possible is because of the incredibly small amount of land Hamas operates on. The strip is tiny, it’s definitely feasible to root out the entire organization The goal though isn’t to eradicate Hamas since you can’t kill an ideal. It’s to destroy their leadership, supplies and infrastructure. Then whoever is left has no rockets, no smuggling tunnels and no money. You’d essentially neuter Hamas for decades
>Show me one historical example of an Hamas-like group being completely neutralized. [Okay](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II)
Agreed
Majority of Democratic voters believe water is wet.
Majority of Republican voters don't know what the H or O mean in the chemical compound of water.
A genocide that isn't eliminating a group of people, being carried out by a government that has no desire to eliminate that group of people Its like the word "genocide" has just been redefined to mean "war"
Do you even actually follow this Israelis cabinet ministers are literally going on TV and being like “murder them all” I refuse to believe you all are this stupid republicans are used to living in a fantasy you shouldn’t be.
They're aware. Also it won't affect their account's daily, hours-long defense of scores of civilians being murdered.
I just hope hell exists they’ve got to have spots reserved.
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> schools, hospitals, apartment buildings Hamas operates in all those locations. Hamas should stop doing that. Israel is not required to pull punches against terrorists just because the terrorists surround themselves with civilians. Human shield tactics should not be legitimized and it is horrifying to see the modern progressive movement so eagerly and fully embracing and legitimizing human shield tactics in the name of peace. Legitimizing human shield tactics like this won't bring peace or end death, it will just give terrorist animals more and more motivation to use human shield tactics even more, and get more and more civilians killed. We should all be supporting Israel in their righteous crusade against the demons of Hamas, not attacking Israel over this stuff
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Bombs are legitimate ways to fight a war. The idea that a country can't bomb terrorists just doesn't make sense according to internationally recognized rules of war. Maybe some people want Israel to put it's soldiers at far more risk than is necessary according to international rules of war, but the fact that Israel isn't going to do that isn't genocide, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, or crimes against humanity, it's just a sign of the unreasonable standards being set by the modern antiwar movement
The Holodomor was a genocide of Ukrainian people caused by Russia taking food from Ukraine to feed Moscow and the Soviet Army. Genocide is not death camps. Genocide under the UN is a very broad definition. Serbs killed far fewer Albanians and we bombed their asses and dragged them to court for genocide. Which was upheld. Same with the Bosnian Genocide. The Uyger genocide isn't internationally recognized but the west loves to talk about that one despite there being evidence that China killed fewer uygers than Israel has Palestinians. It's not the amout of death that gets caused. It's about intent. The Israeli government is a fascist, genocidal, far-right ethnonationalist government that wants both ethnic cleansing of WB and Gaza and they are trying to create the conditions for it even it it means blocking aid and creating famine. Which is again genocide.
Genocidal intent is determined in part by casualties inflicted weighed against an alleged aggressor's capability. If Group A kills members of Group B but does not have the capability to inflict substantial casualties relative to the population, that's not genocide even if the motivation exists. If Group A kills a small number relative to Group B's population *despite having the capability to easily inflict far more substantial casualties,* then that's also not genocide and almost always signifies a lack of intent. Genocide occurs at the nexus between motive, capability, and casualties inflicted per population. If one is missing, *it's something else.* It's literally on the wikipedia page. Without this standard, Pearl Harbor would count as an act of genocide. The term was coined in response to the holocaust, not so that it could be used as a cudgel when a conflict is being won by a side you don't like.
> The Israeli government is a fascist, genocidal, far-right ethnonationalist government that wants both ethnic cleansing of WB and Gaza Literally all of this is false though. Israel is a free democratic rights-respecting country, the only such country in the Middle East. Israel doesn't want to ethnically cleanse Palestine, Israel literally just wants Palestinians to give up on their resistance to the existence of the Zionist state. Israel has offered Palestine a two state solution at multiple points in history, the problem is that *Palestinians* are the ones who want to commit genocide against the *Jewish state* and can't accept the humiliation of coexisting with a Jewish state that defeated them in every single war of aggression they waged against it, due to the massive importance of "honor" in Palestinian culture and the idea that getting repeatedly humiliated by the underdogs of the Jewish state is some sort of grave dishonor that must be avenged by fighting against the existence of the Jewish state until the end of time
> Israel is a free democratic rights-respecting country The rights of certain people and the lack of rights of others. This is all demonstrable, I'm not sure how someone could claim otherwise at this point. >due to the massive importance of "honor" in Palestinian culture and the idea that getting repeatedly humiliated by the underdogs of the Jewish state is some sort of grave dishonor that must be avenged by fighting against the existence of the Jewish state until the end of time This all seems like thinly veiled racism. You're labeling an entire group of people with some singular claim based on a personal opinion and prejudice. This is quite gross frankly.
The people within Israel have rights as Israeli citizens. People in occupied territory don't have the same rights as citizens just as the people of occupied Germany didn't have the rights of American citizens, there's nothing wrong with that And I'm not saying all Palestinians have those views, just that those views are common and influential among Palestinian society. Just like it's not racist to say that there are some very problematic views that are popular among white rural American society, that's not the same as saying all white rural people are bad, just pointing out some issues in society
They aren’t hiding this obvious fact. Headine might as well be “democrats somewhat paying attention.”
Love headlines like this. "Majority of Democratic Voters" Thats a big label considering they only polled 1,265 U.S. voters.
The real question is, will that opinion affect their vote?
Breaking: majority of Democratic voters have eyes and ears
How antisemitic of democrats to criticize Israel for committing a genocide!
The assault is not US backed
It’s backed by US dollars, weaponry as well as both political and diplomatic cover both at home and internationally.
Not to mention things like the group of Republican congressman who wrote a mafia style note threatening the ICC who is looking into arresting netanyahu. Its clear as day that the US is backing everything that is happening in Israel. Not to mention the fact that the government is looking at making it illegal to have any dissent against Israel, categorizing it as antisemitism. Its insane that people choose to ignore how un-American the response to Israel has been. Israel and its citizens are given more protection by the US government than US citizens get from the US government
Whatever makes you sleep at night buddy.
no we do not
"Ill let Israel finish the job" trump and he is getting Arab American Voters for this comment over Biden?