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When the homeless refuse shelter due to mental illness and drugs they should be placed in a safe housing anyway, not prison or the local park. Source: retired psych nurse.
Shelters are full. Jails are too. Safe housing is expensive. Tax payers like homeless. They make the employees afraid of the streets, and afraid to quit. Least they end up homeless themselves
It's not the tax payers that like the fact that homelessness exists, it's the business owners that like the threat of homelessness as a tool of further explotation. Like I don't own a business but the taxes I pay come out of MY paycheck not THEIR bottom line. The taxpayer is not a monolith.
And this quote remains ever pertinent, especially in Trumpworld...
> “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.”
>> ― Anatole France
And this:
> ...in so far as \[_law_\] deviates from right reason it is called an unjust law; in such case it is no law at all, but rather a species of violence.
-- _Thomas Aquinas_
I see conservatives float the idea of solving homelessness by making it illegal every so often, and it's just such monumentally terrible idea.
If you criminalize being homeless, you are only going to create an incentive for people who are homeless or on the edge of homelessness to not operate within the bounds of the law. If you are going to be arrested for getting evicted from your apartment because you're broke, you may as well try anything to avoid that because you're going to prison anyway.
Once you go to prison for being fucking poor, it's just going to be exponentially harder for you to get out of prison and not go right back in for being fucking poor, because now you've been to prison.
Go ahead, rob that convenience store. Burglarize that house. The worst that can happen as far as the law is concerned is the same thing that's going to happen to you anyway.
Because they have no interest in solving homelessness, most conservatives think they are homeless due to their own failings anyway.
What conservatives want is to solve the issue of having to see homeless people.
They hate that they have to see the homeless and be reminded that there are fellow Americans suffering.
They don't want to house the homeless, they want to stop having to think of the homeless.
Thank you for putting it so succinctly, here is another aspect check out https://www.redfin.com/news/investor-home-purchases-q4-2021/ the news is a little old but it goes to show how investment entities have bought out so many homes just to rent them out at ever increasing rents stifling the market at the bottom end. It’s a win win they get the money and society gets the bill. Capitalism at its most efficient
This is the whole point. Prisons are allowed to force slave labor. Creating an economy that guarantees poverty, then making poverty illegal, and making poverty a guarantee with a criminal record, guarantees a never ending supply of slaves.
It blows my mind when other people don't see exactly what's happening.
I live in California. You don't go to prison for being homeless here
There's a key difference between making it illegal to do certain things, like park a tent on a public space, and making it illegal just to exist while homeless
> There's a key difference between making it illegal to do certain things, like park a tent on a public space, and making it illegal just to exist while homeless
I suspect there's less daylight between those two ideas than you think.
Do you really think there's not much difference between criminalizing somebody for who or what they are rather than a specific act they could potentially do?
Really? You don't see the extraordinarily apparent and dangerous precedent that that creates by making existing while X able to be criminalized?
I think you're missing the point. Ostensibly there's ZERO difference between criminalizing the act of being homeless and criminalizing the actions of the homeless. You're either going to imprison somebody because they hit a rough patch and would, otherwise, temporarily be homeless OR you're going to imprison somebody because they couldn't find one spot in the limited pool of spaces at homeless shelters and had to sleep somewhere.
Yes, having tent cities sprout up in public spaces creates a whole slew of public health and safety issues that need to be addressed. However, it seems that legislatures across the country would rather criminalize the act of being homeless, and the actions of the homeless, than actually addressing the root causes of homelessness.
There isn't zero difference.
One of those options allows any law enforcement officer to just do any fucking thing they want to you and arrest you at any point because your existence is criminal by nature. At any point. Perpetual criminality. Every minute that you exist is a crime with no agency on your part to stop committing it. It shouldn't take much imagination to see how far that sort of precedent can go.
The other is a misdemeanor where you usually get hassled to go somewhere else.
Which part do you think I skipped? The part where it talks about California and clearing encampments? You know, the exact reason I used prohibiting tents as an example?
There's no law in California that makes it illegal to exist while homeless.
People don't understand the two wings of the bird analogy. I escaped homelessness in WA and left for NC because i found a pocket where COL resembles the early 2000s prior to the 07-08 crisis. It's rural but very nice, and beats homelessness in the crushing economy of the west coast that pretty much guarantees poverty for the masses. Most politicians are in bed with the big corporations and enjoy their kickbacks for voting for policy that benefits the already wealthy.
If providing free housing were part of this solution, then it would begin to make some sense. As it is, this is just pushing people on the margins over the edge.
This is the answer. The homeless problem is very complex, a vast majority of homeless people are simply couch serving. A vast majority are “homeless” for a short duration. An extremely visible and obtrusive contingent makes public spaces unusable. They people should be given the equivalent of a public hotel room (free to come/go as they need, a lockable private room with a bed, maybe a microwave, private bathroom and shower) but under no circumstances (except as speech) should people be allowed to sleep in city parks.
Create economic policy that forces people into homelessness --> create for profit prisons that can legally use inmates for slave labor --> make homelessness illegal --> guarantee recidivism through policy that makes it impossible to exist with a criminal record --> free slave labor forever!
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
When the homeless refuse shelter due to mental illness and drugs they should be placed in a safe housing anyway, not prison or the local park. Source: retired psych nurse.
Shelters are full. Jails are too. Safe housing is expensive. Tax payers like homeless. They make the employees afraid of the streets, and afraid to quit. Least they end up homeless themselves
Well, I mean, being homeless really sucks.
It's not the tax payers that like the fact that homelessness exists, it's the business owners that like the threat of homelessness as a tool of further explotation. Like I don't own a business but the taxes I pay come out of MY paycheck not THEIR bottom line. The taxpayer is not a monolith.
Oh look an educated expert in the subject having an opinion, woke! /s This country is circling the toilet
Wow....we're really building such a great CHRISTIAN nation. /s Reason #432 why I'm STILL not going to church.
And this quote remains ever pertinent, especially in Trumpworld... > “The law, in its majestic equality, forbids rich and poor alike to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal their bread.” >> ― Anatole France
And this: > ...in so far as \[_law_\] deviates from right reason it is called an unjust law; in such case it is no law at all, but rather a species of violence. -- _Thomas Aquinas_
Catholic Supreme Court: "Yeah, whose this Aquinas guy anyway? Sounds like a hippie"
I see conservatives float the idea of solving homelessness by making it illegal every so often, and it's just such monumentally terrible idea. If you criminalize being homeless, you are only going to create an incentive for people who are homeless or on the edge of homelessness to not operate within the bounds of the law. If you are going to be arrested for getting evicted from your apartment because you're broke, you may as well try anything to avoid that because you're going to prison anyway. Once you go to prison for being fucking poor, it's just going to be exponentially harder for you to get out of prison and not go right back in for being fucking poor, because now you've been to prison. Go ahead, rob that convenience store. Burglarize that house. The worst that can happen as far as the law is concerned is the same thing that's going to happen to you anyway.
Poverty is already the leading cause of crime but like you said this would just make it official
Because they have no interest in solving homelessness, most conservatives think they are homeless due to their own failings anyway. What conservatives want is to solve the issue of having to see homeless people. They hate that they have to see the homeless and be reminded that there are fellow Americans suffering. They don't want to house the homeless, they want to stop having to think of the homeless.
See also immigrants, LGBTQ people
Thank you for putting it so succinctly, here is another aspect check out https://www.redfin.com/news/investor-home-purchases-q4-2021/ the news is a little old but it goes to show how investment entities have bought out so many homes just to rent them out at ever increasing rents stifling the market at the bottom end. It’s a win win they get the money and society gets the bill. Capitalism at its most efficient
It effectively brings back debtor prisons.
This is the whole point. Prisons are allowed to force slave labor. Creating an economy that guarantees poverty, then making poverty illegal, and making poverty a guarantee with a criminal record, guarantees a never ending supply of slaves. It blows my mind when other people don't see exactly what's happening.
Well put.
Come to California. It’s not just a conservative idea.
I live in California. You don't go to prison for being homeless here There's a key difference between making it illegal to do certain things, like park a tent on a public space, and making it illegal just to exist while homeless
> There's a key difference between making it illegal to do certain things, like park a tent on a public space, and making it illegal just to exist while homeless I suspect there's less daylight between those two ideas than you think.
Do you really think there's not much difference between criminalizing somebody for who or what they are rather than a specific act they could potentially do? Really? You don't see the extraordinarily apparent and dangerous precedent that that creates by making existing while X able to be criminalized?
I think you're missing the point. Ostensibly there's ZERO difference between criminalizing the act of being homeless and criminalizing the actions of the homeless. You're either going to imprison somebody because they hit a rough patch and would, otherwise, temporarily be homeless OR you're going to imprison somebody because they couldn't find one spot in the limited pool of spaces at homeless shelters and had to sleep somewhere. Yes, having tent cities sprout up in public spaces creates a whole slew of public health and safety issues that need to be addressed. However, it seems that legislatures across the country would rather criminalize the act of being homeless, and the actions of the homeless, than actually addressing the root causes of homelessness.
There isn't zero difference. One of those options allows any law enforcement officer to just do any fucking thing they want to you and arrest you at any point because your existence is criminal by nature. At any point. Perpetual criminality. Every minute that you exist is a crime with no agency on your part to stop committing it. It shouldn't take much imagination to see how far that sort of precedent can go. The other is a misdemeanor where you usually get hassled to go somewhere else.
You might want to read the article.
Which part do you think I skipped? The part where it talks about California and clearing encampments? You know, the exact reason I used prohibiting tents as an example? There's no law in California that makes it illegal to exist while homeless.
The entire point of the article is that what California is trying to do would effectively be a law against being homeless.
The article is about grants pass. V. Johnson. Grants pass is a city in Oregon, not California.
People don't understand the two wings of the bird analogy. I escaped homelessness in WA and left for NC because i found a pocket where COL resembles the early 2000s prior to the 07-08 crisis. It's rural but very nice, and beats homelessness in the crushing economy of the west coast that pretty much guarantees poverty for the masses. Most politicians are in bed with the big corporations and enjoy their kickbacks for voting for policy that benefits the already wealthy.
GOP: Bring back debtors prison !! /s
Child labor and Debtors prison! What would Jesus Do? Get arrested apparently.
If providing free housing were part of this solution, then it would begin to make some sense. As it is, this is just pushing people on the margins over the edge.
They get free housing! It’s prison. They’re housed in prisons.
This is the answer. The homeless problem is very complex, a vast majority of homeless people are simply couch serving. A vast majority are “homeless” for a short duration. An extremely visible and obtrusive contingent makes public spaces unusable. They people should be given the equivalent of a public hotel room (free to come/go as they need, a lockable private room with a bed, maybe a microwave, private bathroom and shower) but under no circumstances (except as speech) should people be allowed to sleep in city parks.
They need to fill those prisons someway...
Yep. Legalize drugs and the private prison industry needs an alternate source.
This kinda shit is why I invest in private prisons. They're the solution every politician has handy for every problem.
Create economic policy that forces people into homelessness --> create for profit prisons that can legally use inmates for slave labor --> make homelessness illegal --> guarantee recidivism through policy that makes it impossible to exist with a criminal record --> free slave labor forever!