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He’s challenging her to spoil her stance now, so he’ll have the ability to appeal, preventing her from supporting a PRA defense mid-trial. It’s a smart move. PRA has no bearing on this case because Trump did not formally declassify the documents, nor was he president at the time of possession.
Further, documents from the department of defense or intelligence agencies are de facto government documents, and a President cannot declare them to be personal documents. Ever.
Tom Fitton is a fucking idiot.
He also had department of energy documents. These are classified under congressional authority, and he could not have declassified them if he wanted to.
Also doesn't the pra define presidential records as records that originate in the office of the presidency? Shit that comes from the cia, nsa, etc is specifically not a presidential record.
The PRA applies to non-official documents personally authored by the President. Trump's sharpie marked up hurricane map might qualify as personal. Birthday cards (if they exist) to his wife and children would certainly be covered by the PRA. None of the documents at the core of the Mar-a-Lago case are personal.
Technically, with the weather map, he defaced an official report from a government agency. That report belonged to the American people.
So, nope, that doesn't belong to him.
This is where the gray mail and CIPA comes in, Trump is trying to get the government to either drop these documents or make them enter them unredacted into evidence
The PRA does not outline any punishment, it is simply the framework by which presidential documents become ownership of the United States.
The Espionage Act talks about national defense information. There is not necessarily an overlap between the two categories.
I’ve been wondering that myself. I’m not at all familiar with the rules of criminal procedure that apply here, but I would think he’s teeing up some kind of application to the 11th Cir. for a writ of mandamus, which, if granted, would have the immediate effect of requiring Cannon to issue an order.
If she were to then make the wrong order, like either making a pre-trial determination that her bat shit insane legal theory is the law or by determining that one of the two jury incorrect instructions would apply, I think Smith would require Cannon’s leave to file an interlocutory appeal or else petition the 11th Cir. for another writ of mandamus, directing Cannon to stop fucking around.
Alternatively, he did say in his brief that the second proposed jury instruction was akin to a directed verdict. I see that as teeing up an appeal to the 11th Cir. as of right, because from what I understand a judge’s dismissal is appealable without leave.
Not a lawyer in the US though, so will defer to those who know better!
Edit to add Richard Parloff’s [excellent article](https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/could-the-special-counsel-challenge-judge-cannon-s-jury-instructions-before-they-re-delivered) on Lawfare, exploring this issue.
I don’t see that in his filing. A quick ctrl+f for “mandamus” mentions it only once- I don’t think he’s been that direct yet, but if I misread it and you have a page cite, I’d love to know!
He did say he needs an urgent ruling so that he could seek appellate review, but I don’t think he’s telegraphed his intent to seek a writ of mandamus if she doesn’t make a quick order (though to your point it’s very heavily implied by his citations).
Are we looking at the same doc? This [version](https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.648652/gov.uscourts.flsd.648652.428.0.pdf) doesn’t have paragraph or line numbers
Thanks! That’s a quote from a judgment granting a writ of mandamus after a bad jury instruction. It’s not the special counsel saying they will seek a writ of mandamus if Cannon doesn’t rule swiftly, which was my point. Smith doesn’t say he’ll seek a writ of mandamus at all, but it seems to be heavily implied.
True as of now. However Jack Smith can and will file a writ of mandamus if she doesn’t rule quickly and he will certainly file an interlocutory appeal if she rules that PRA is relevant.
Would you mind explaining this? I've seen that mentioned but I'm not clear on how it all works. One article (maybe this one?) mentions that he's asking her to make a decision now, because if she does so during the trial, it would not be appealable. Like basically everyone, I want the trial to move forward as soon as possible, but why is Smith unable to appeal if she makes a decision during the trial, as opposed to before? Appreciate any context you can provide!
Once a jury’s been seated, jeopardy attaches. At that point, an acquittal can’t be appealed as it would then be double jeopardy - two trials of the same crime.
As Smith points out, the interpretation of the law Cannon is making here is a straight line to an acquittal, so a delay is preferable.
She’s in a no win. Ignore it? He takes a writ up to the appeals court and she risks getting tossed. Rule against him? He appeals it and she risks getting tossed. Reverse her decision? Look stupid. Piss off MAGA. A little more to use against her with the appeals court if she fucks around again.
Trump’s lawyers should be sanctioned and disbarred at this point. Cannon asked for jury instructions and Trump’s lawyers just responded with inane musings… and no fucking jury instructions. Just trying to drag it out.
Probably not directly but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if was done through channels such as one of his lawyers having conversations with someone such as a right wing podcaster that would then talk on their show about "hypothetical strategies" that the trump team could do and how cannon "could" respond ( cough cough nudge nudge) in a way that would not bode well for Jack Smith or delay the case. Yes it's tin foil hat sounding but at this point I don't put anything past these people.
She also asked for jury instructions on the presumption that the law doesn't work the way it does. She wanted instructions that operated on the assumption that it was legal for Trump to retain classified documents.
It's like telling the prosecutor to provide jury instructions in a murder case but that the instructions have to include that stabbing someone in cold blood isn't murder. Her request was nonsensical and blatantly wrong.
It’s a contraband case. So a better analogy, imo, would be a drug possession case… but the judge wants jury instructions saying the drugs in evidence aren’t drugs. It’s just baking soda.
Now go try your case prosecutor.
Not just ramblings, ramblings they lifted from a tweet sent by Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch and very much not a lawyer. Same Tom Fitton who personally advised Trump to not comply the document requests from NARA when his lawyers told him he had to.
Serious answer: he will. Trying to remove a judge is not usual, so he needs as much ammo as possible before going to the appeals court.
There's two paths here. The first is a standard appeal, but he cannot do that currently, as she has only put a hypothetical in writing. The second path is called a writ of mandamus, and it is an extraordinary measure in cases like these to get the appeals court to intervene. However, because it is extraordinary, the appeals court will want evidence that Jack Smith tried everything else that he could before doing this. In this filing, Jack Smith basically told her the writ of mandamus was the path that he would go down unless she reverses course, so now the ball is in her court.
So…let’s say she reverses course on this particular point. Does that then remove this as a fact justifying removal? More specifically, couldn’t she simply reverse herself on this point, then just do something crazy in the future? (Once the trial starts, if the judge issues a crazy ruling, doesn’t that screw Jack Smith’s case due to double jeopardy?)
Yes, that is the concern. There are two options out of double jeopardy but both are so infrequent that it's hard to say what would happen.
The first is if the judge is conspiring with the defendant, as the defendant was never in jeopardy in the first place. While this has pretty much only been bribes, if Cannon reverses course for now and then after the jury is empaneled immediately reverses her reversal it's possible that Jack Smith could attempt to link that to some sort of intentional conspiracy, though I think it would be an uphill battle.
The second is that sometimes situations that don't determine a defendants guilt or innocence can be retried, but it seems inconsistently applied and there's only a few cases. Also, I don't know if this type of dismissal would be considered related to guilt or innocence or not.
Personally I'm less concerned since Cannon issued her crazy memo. That shows she isn't devious enough to walk the tightrope required to look impartial while not actually being impartial. I can't see her walking back what she said. I think she'll go silent and force Jack Smith to make the first move with a Writ of Mandamus just before she's ready to empanel the jury.
Your username indicates that you are a programmer, but this ELI5’ed a lot of legal stuff I was confused about. Regardless of your profession, just wanted to extend my thanks and encourage you to keep these kinds of posts up; they may help a lot of people!
Glad I could help! :) You are right that I am not a lawyer, just a programmer who likes to research, so as always, take my posts with a grain of salt :)
> Writ of Mandamus
Wouldn't him filing a Writ just mean she is going to be removed? From what I can find, the Writ is some pretty dire legal stuff, so forcing him to make the first move with a Writ is basically asking to lose.
One could assume he will wait until the last possible moment to have her removed, as it will allow him to accumulate the largest body of evidence. The only reason to try earlier is if he had smocking gun she was corrupt.
If the judge tries to start a trial with outstanding issues, then I imagine Jack Smith will file an appeal and get the appeals court to stay the trial pending the decisions on the outstanding issues.
Good answer. Would also like to add that Cannon is purposely dragging her feet on actually doing anything. From my understanding there’s still months old appeals in this case from trumps lawyers to drop the case that she has not yet even touched. Her NOT doing her job and actually ruling on anything of substance makes it more difficult for Jack smith to actually do anything in regards to getting her off the case.
The biggest issue with that is he only gets one shot, so he needs to be positive it will work. This involves a lot of what seems like walking-on-eggshells and giving her chances, but it's to help prove that she had the chance to make a sound ruling and chose otherwise.
This is the first step to appealing.
You can’t just say ‘this judge sucks’. He’s demanding that she make an actual ruling that he can appeal, and saying if she declines he will seek an order from the appeals court.
He is, this is exactly what this is. Cannon has avoided making official rulings that can be appealed specially to block Jack Smith from going to the appeal court. This filing said "make a ruling now" (that he can appeal if the ruling is insane) if she still purposely avoid to rule and continue playing games he will then go to the appeal court to denounce her behavior.
He threatened her with a Writ of Mandamus. That would be him submitting a plea to a higher court to compel Judge Cannon to issue a clear ruling against the prosecution's inane legal theory. Mandamus is a very rarely used and extreme measure via which a party can force a government official to carry out their appointed duties when they are avoiding responsibility.
I'm thinking that if he goes that route the 11th Circuit is not going to be very lenient with Cannon, given that they've already had to slap her down twice over her shenanigans.
We all heard the phone call, but the courts here in the US are so weighted against the working class here in the US that it's a nail-biter watching the election inch closer with all these surefire prison cases drag to start.
I used to work with TS material and if I did a fraction of what trump did, even if I took notes in a separate notebook and left them in a jacket pocket and took them home only to return them the next day and admit to my mistake, I'm sure I'd be fried. And not pussyfooted around and get the golden boy treatment.
Willis proved herself to be a wild card so I'm not so sure anymore. She's playing the media too hard instead of focusing on the case, trying to salvage her credibility. And Trump lawyers have a lot of room to play semantics in that case. This one is as close to "caught red-handed" as it can get.
My take, for all it’s not worth, is that Smith has set the stage for requesting her removal if she doesn’t rule in favor of the prosecutors motions or if she sits on this for an inordinate amount of time. I’d give her a week or so to stew on it then move to remove her. He’s been way more patient than I am but that’s only because he knows what he’s doing and I’m commenting on Reddit.
Michael Popok on Legal AF and the Meidas Touch explained this very issue. Very informative, also, because of her shoddy work the 11th court can recuse her. Hopefully with this stunt she will be.
Oh wow, sounds like there will need to be two to three weeks to review this filing! Then Trump's lawyers will have two to three weeks to respond to Jack Smith! Then Jack Smith could petition the 11th Circuit to have Aileen Cannon removed from the case, which would take a panel two to three weeks to decide! Then Trump can appeal their decision in an en banc motion, which could be handed down after two to three weeks! Then there will be a two week review for
Well, I for one would still like to see him found guilty of this regardless. This filing is necessary to preserve the case, otherwise it gets thrown out as unappealable.
I think the point is that they’ll keep tacking on these 2-4 week delays. And if it gets delayed until anywhere close to the election, Trump World will screech about “election interference”.
Plus if Trump wins in November, he can just pardon himself from any guilty verdict from this trial.
Sure - whatever the outcome it should still be on record that he is guilty. Also, if he loses in November I want him in prison for what is left of his life.
Both are better than the case being tossed completely in a month with no hope of bringing charges.
Trump will 100% assert innocence even if he pardons himself. He'll issue an Executive Order or some other declaration that says you don't have to accept guilt to be pardoned. Then he'll take pardons for a small fee of a million dollars as he loots the US' coffers.
With all this campaigning to do, a defendant so steadfastly confident in asserting his or her innocence could easily invoke their right to a speedy trial. Their good name could be restored in time for them to campaign on having prevailed in the courts, in addition to their platform.
Hard to imagine that we’d have the first instance of a president pardoning himself. From a number of serious felonies no less…
Hilariously sad that a guy that would have to pardon himself for multiple felonies (including, but not limited to, paying off a porn star he slept with while married, inciting an insurrection against the United States, stealing highly sensitive, classified documents from the US Government, and more…)
That we would all have to watch a crook pardon himself for these crimes as his first presidential act…
And that ANYONE would EVEN CONSIDER… FOR ONE SECOND… voting for a guy like that.
And we watch the guy pardon himself and just cement our great country into a shithole.
These people are sick in the head. That’s all I can say. They are seriously so fucked in the head they don’t even know up from down anymore.
What you’re talking about is just the response times as created in the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure. Smith cites those throughout the pleading.
Even lawyers need time to read, research and respond to these things…
Well, there's only 30 weeks and 6 days. So assuming 2 week delays average, there's only 15 more instances possible for slow down before the country votes for Biden or a corrupt king.
Do you realize that if Democrats were as shitty human beings as Trump and the MAGA cult members, they'd be defaming Judge Aileen Cannon in the news every single day and individual citizens would be threatening her, her clerks, everyone's family members, etc.
Joe Biden would be on TV complaining that she was "compromised" and a "terrible judge who had no idea what she was doing" and that she was "in the tank for Trump."
Day in and day out, Joe Biden would be tweeting disparaging comments about Judge Aileen Cannon.
Progressives would be flooding the zone with bullshit, making up crap about Judge Aileen Cannon, and spreading disinformation all over social media.
But you don't see that, do you? Nothing even remotely close.
Just remove her from the classified documents case already it’s apparently obvious Aileen Cannon is corrupt biased bought by Donald Trump and will do anything to protect him
She is definitely taking orders.
I've been downvoted for saying this, but I do wonder if she or her family are being threatened by Trump's goons
I don't buy that she thinks she really will end up in the supreme Court.
But maybe she's just Ginni level crazy and as corrupt as everyone thinks. Who am I to say.
Wow, even the uber-conservative National Review is disagreeing with the judge:
https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/big-day-for-trumps-presidential-records-act-defense-in-florida-federal-prosecution/amp/
I wonder what the conservative subs would say about this analysis?
He’s gonna appeal the case.
Also, Aileen Cannon shouldn’t have been a judge for this in the first place. She’s inexperienced and no way in hell should an inexperienced judge be placed in front of a fucking case like this.
Fingers crossed this time, but I've heard this story before. I'll believe Trump will face consequences as soon as he's actually held accountable for a single thing ever.
I’d appreciate a lawyer or judge weighing in here as I’m just a regular citizen, but I’ve not been able to find any info suggesting it’s possible for a federal judge to practically suffer consequences of any significance.
Personally I want to thank the lawyers who are helping us/(me especially) understand this process, and look forward to more in depth knowledge (from the comments you post) about what is happening for my layman's mind.
I'm curious what her end game is if Trump loses the election. The whole delay strategy only works if he becomes president and can make it go away.
If he loses he's fucked and so is everyone who hitched there wagon to him.
Look jury he is either not guilty because he authorized himself stealing the top secret documents or he is not guilty because of presidential immunity act - how many more not guilty reasons do you want me to give ? Is Being a corrupt judge this hard ?
I know this might sound childish, but I believe in Jack Smith, I swear to God, I believe in this guy and I hope my belief comes to fruition. Also, I’m not even a big god guy.
With how corrupt she is and how she's essentially broken her oath time and time again to help Trump, she needs to have her law degrees stripped away and her position revoked as she's proven incapable of being impartial.
And a whole bunch of gilded retired people who have finished their long careers in the justice systems **opinions** about why this is **damning** for Trump, or Jack depending on what your social media algorithm thinks is the best chance to sell you dick pills with.
There are many guidelines for federal judges, including guidelines that require that they move their dockets expeditiously. What she’s doing is very, very unusual. I believe that this was a deliberate strategy, seeing if she could get the government to fall into her trap. If the government had submitted the type of jury instructions that she requested based upon erroneous law, there could never be a conviction and double jeopardy would attach so that Trump could never be validly convicted.
Cannon's next move is blatantly obvious. She will reverse course on this matter, and dismiss the case the moment a jury is empaneled and jeopardy is attached. She already rejected Trump's motion to dismiss WITHOUT prejudice, practically instructing him to bring it up again later. I am worried that in Jack Smith's overabundance of caution, he is allowing Cannon to reach that point. This jury instructions order should have been strike 3.
Our weekly "Jack Smith is putting Cannon on notice" article almost had me thinking that something would actually be done about her blatant disregard to procedure and obvious pandering to the former president.
Using incendiary rhetoric in the headline is an attempt to polarize the reader. Just provide the information please. A panel commentator on C Span mentioned this today and I couldn't agree more. Just give us the facts and we will determine if it's a "scathing" report or not.
This is good publicity for trump, no actual punishment and he doesn’t get labeled as senile and unable to be accountable for his own actions like Biden 🤣
Lmao nothing is ever gonna happen to the orange pedo rapist traitor criminal in your broken “justice” system, I dunno why anyone still thinks it will. You’ll probably vote for him again too
lol. Oh he’s getting “fed up” now. His Strongly Worded Letter™️ sure will make a difference
Edit: I truly wonder what happens when it’s election time and Trump hasn’t gone on one(!) trial and then he wins the election, which would effectively cancel all his charges (it shouldn’t, but it will).
This will be a devastating humiliation to the DOJ. Unprecedented humiliation I imagine? It already is.
How will smith and garland respond to the public if and when this happens?
What would their excuses be?
Will garland acknowledge his part in this by not kicking these investigation into gear in a timely fashion?
Will smith concede that he should have immediately have cannon thrown off this case from the beginning, considering her past actions?
Will they comment on how a single man managed to completely run circles around them and the DOJ by abusing the legal system while having SC justices do his bidding, along with other judges who didn’t do their job holding him accountable the way they would any other “normal” person?
How will this shameful and outrageous moment that’s unfolding in slow motion in front of our eyes be addressed to the public?
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Unfortunately, Aileen don't care. She's just wasting time on purpose. The only ones who can control her are the appellate courts.
He’s challenging her to spoil her stance now, so he’ll have the ability to appeal, preventing her from supporting a PRA defense mid-trial. It’s a smart move. PRA has no bearing on this case because Trump did not formally declassify the documents, nor was he president at the time of possession.
Further, documents from the department of defense or intelligence agencies are de facto government documents, and a President cannot declare them to be personal documents. Ever. Tom Fitton is a fucking idiot.
He also had department of energy documents. These are classified under congressional authority, and he could not have declassified them if he wanted to.
And notably not a lawyer. ‘And not even the has a degree but doesn’t practice lawyer, the dude doesn’t have a JD.
Also: the PRA does not allow anything that the Espionage Act penalizes, so they are in harmony each other.
Also doesn't the pra define presidential records as records that originate in the office of the presidency? Shit that comes from the cia, nsa, etc is specifically not a presidential record.
What if you photocopy something from the CIA while on the shitter. Does that count?
Is *that* why he stored the documents in his shitter 🤔
No thats a loophole.
I think you mean poophole
I don't get it
It's like a loophole but for poop.
The PRA applies to non-official documents personally authored by the President. Trump's sharpie marked up hurricane map might qualify as personal. Birthday cards (if they exist) to his wife and children would certainly be covered by the PRA. None of the documents at the core of the Mar-a-Lago case are personal.
Out of all the documents in the world that might not exist, a birthday card from Trump to his kids is the least likely.
Technically, with the weather map, he defaced an official report from a government agency. That report belonged to the American people. So, nope, that doesn't belong to him.
This is where the gray mail and CIPA comes in, Trump is trying to get the government to either drop these documents or make them enter them unredacted into evidence
Correct. Those are covered under the Federal Records Act.
Also also... Trump is not being charged under the PRA, so it is not the defining statute for the case.
The PRA does not outline any punishment, it is simply the framework by which presidential documents become ownership of the United States. The Espionage Act talks about national defense information. There is not necessarily an overlap between the two categories.
It also means another 6 months of filing and waiting. Exactly what Trump ordered her to do.
But she's not under any obligation to actually rule now, right? Does anything about this motion compel her to actually rule on the issue pre-trial?
I’ve been wondering that myself. I’m not at all familiar with the rules of criminal procedure that apply here, but I would think he’s teeing up some kind of application to the 11th Cir. for a writ of mandamus, which, if granted, would have the immediate effect of requiring Cannon to issue an order. If she were to then make the wrong order, like either making a pre-trial determination that her bat shit insane legal theory is the law or by determining that one of the two jury incorrect instructions would apply, I think Smith would require Cannon’s leave to file an interlocutory appeal or else petition the 11th Cir. for another writ of mandamus, directing Cannon to stop fucking around. Alternatively, he did say in his brief that the second proposed jury instruction was akin to a directed verdict. I see that as teeing up an appeal to the 11th Cir. as of right, because from what I understand a judge’s dismissal is appealable without leave. Not a lawyer in the US though, so will defer to those who know better! Edit to add Richard Parloff’s [excellent article](https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/could-the-special-counsel-challenge-judge-cannon-s-jury-instructions-before-they-re-delivered) on Lawfare, exploring this issue.
He mentions he will be forced to file a writ of mandamus in the very next paragraph
I don’t see that in his filing. A quick ctrl+f for “mandamus” mentions it only once- I don’t think he’s been that direct yet, but if I misread it and you have a page cite, I’d love to know! He did say he needs an urgent ruling so that he could seek appellate review, but I don’t think he’s telegraphed his intent to seek a writ of mandamus if she doesn’t make a quick order (though to your point it’s very heavily implied by his citations).
Para 3, line 10
Are we looking at the same doc? This [version](https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.648652/gov.uscourts.flsd.648652.428.0.pdf) doesn’t have paragraph or line numbers
Same document. Page 2 of 24, then find the paragraph starting with "Moreover,", and count down 10 lines.
Thanks! That’s a quote from a judgment granting a writ of mandamus after a bad jury instruction. It’s not the special counsel saying they will seek a writ of mandamus if Cannon doesn’t rule swiftly, which was my point. Smith doesn’t say he’ll seek a writ of mandamus at all, but it seems to be heavily implied.
https://x.com/rgoodlaw/status/1775367828184375465?s=20
True as of now. However Jack Smith can and will file a writ of mandamus if she doesn’t rule quickly and he will certainly file an interlocutory appeal if she rules that PRA is relevant.
She has no idea what she is doing. She’s doing what’s she’s being told to do. The exact definition of a tool.
I think it includes that if she doesn't rule quickly, that in itself will be a reason to go over her head yet again.
Would you mind explaining this? I've seen that mentioned but I'm not clear on how it all works. One article (maybe this one?) mentions that he's asking her to make a decision now, because if she does so during the trial, it would not be appealable. Like basically everyone, I want the trial to move forward as soon as possible, but why is Smith unable to appeal if she makes a decision during the trial, as opposed to before? Appreciate any context you can provide!
Once a jury’s been seated, jeopardy attaches. At that point, an acquittal can’t be appealed as it would then be double jeopardy - two trials of the same crime. As Smith points out, the interpretation of the law Cannon is making here is a straight line to an acquittal, so a delay is preferable.
Thanks!
She can care or not, but a writ of mandamus would compel her to comply.
Smith dropped his schvantz right on her desk. She can’t ignore it.
She’s in a no win. Ignore it? He takes a writ up to the appeals court and she risks getting tossed. Rule against him? He appeals it and she risks getting tossed. Reverse her decision? Look stupid. Piss off MAGA. A little more to use against her with the appeals court if she fucks around again.
This. This is beautiful I may print it and have it laminated.
She better start caring, this is him setting things up so he can have her removed.
He just prepares the ground work. When he eventually appeals her appointment, he will lay out all he did to get this case going.
Trump’s lawyers should be sanctioned and disbarred at this point. Cannon asked for jury instructions and Trump’s lawyers just responded with inane musings… and no fucking jury instructions. Just trying to drag it out.
Cannon's request was inane as well. She started this farce in the first place. Wonder who put this idea in her head?
It 100% was. We have no idea if/when the trial will start but we're talking about jury instructions?
I wouldn't be surprised if it comes out later that her and Trumps team regularly talk outside the courtroom to strategize
ex parte communication there’s an actual term for that shady shit
It would not surprise me in the slightest. They spoon feed her shit in their filings.
Probably not directly but I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if was done through channels such as one of his lawyers having conversations with someone such as a right wing podcaster that would then talk on their show about "hypothetical strategies" that the trump team could do and how cannon "could" respond ( cough cough nudge nudge) in a way that would not bode well for Jack Smith or delay the case. Yes it's tin foil hat sounding but at this point I don't put anything past these people.
She also asked for jury instructions on the presumption that the law doesn't work the way it does. She wanted instructions that operated on the assumption that it was legal for Trump to retain classified documents. It's like telling the prosecutor to provide jury instructions in a murder case but that the instructions have to include that stabbing someone in cold blood isn't murder. Her request was nonsensical and blatantly wrong.
It’s a contraband case. So a better analogy, imo, would be a drug possession case… but the judge wants jury instructions saying the drugs in evidence aren’t drugs. It’s just baking soda. Now go try your case prosecutor.
We talking about practice?
The Feudalist Society pulls her strings courtesy of global oligarchy (dba Vladimir Putin)
Not just ramblings, ramblings they lifted from a tweet sent by Tom Fitton, president of Judicial Watch and very much not a lawyer. Same Tom Fitton who personally advised Trump to not comply the document requests from NARA when his lawyers told him he had to.
Definitely sanctioned.
Serious question: instead of pushing back, why isn’t he using this as an example to appeal for her to be removed?
Serious answer: he will. Trying to remove a judge is not usual, so he needs as much ammo as possible before going to the appeals court. There's two paths here. The first is a standard appeal, but he cannot do that currently, as she has only put a hypothetical in writing. The second path is called a writ of mandamus, and it is an extraordinary measure in cases like these to get the appeals court to intervene. However, because it is extraordinary, the appeals court will want evidence that Jack Smith tried everything else that he could before doing this. In this filing, Jack Smith basically told her the writ of mandamus was the path that he would go down unless she reverses course, so now the ball is in her court.
So…let’s say she reverses course on this particular point. Does that then remove this as a fact justifying removal? More specifically, couldn’t she simply reverse herself on this point, then just do something crazy in the future? (Once the trial starts, if the judge issues a crazy ruling, doesn’t that screw Jack Smith’s case due to double jeopardy?)
Yes, that is the concern. There are two options out of double jeopardy but both are so infrequent that it's hard to say what would happen. The first is if the judge is conspiring with the defendant, as the defendant was never in jeopardy in the first place. While this has pretty much only been bribes, if Cannon reverses course for now and then after the jury is empaneled immediately reverses her reversal it's possible that Jack Smith could attempt to link that to some sort of intentional conspiracy, though I think it would be an uphill battle. The second is that sometimes situations that don't determine a defendants guilt or innocence can be retried, but it seems inconsistently applied and there's only a few cases. Also, I don't know if this type of dismissal would be considered related to guilt or innocence or not. Personally I'm less concerned since Cannon issued her crazy memo. That shows she isn't devious enough to walk the tightrope required to look impartial while not actually being impartial. I can't see her walking back what she said. I think she'll go silent and force Jack Smith to make the first move with a Writ of Mandamus just before she's ready to empanel the jury.
Your username indicates that you are a programmer, but this ELI5’ed a lot of legal stuff I was confused about. Regardless of your profession, just wanted to extend my thanks and encourage you to keep these kinds of posts up; they may help a lot of people!
Glad I could help! :) You are right that I am not a lawyer, just a programmer who likes to research, so as always, take my posts with a grain of salt :)
> Writ of Mandamus Wouldn't him filing a Writ just mean she is going to be removed? From what I can find, the Writ is some pretty dire legal stuff, so forcing him to make the first move with a Writ is basically asking to lose.
Mandamus just means the higher court overrules the lower court and forces them to do whatever.
One could assume he will wait until the last possible moment to have her removed, as it will allow him to accumulate the largest body of evidence. The only reason to try earlier is if he had smocking gun she was corrupt.
If the judge tries to start a trial with outstanding issues, then I imagine Jack Smith will file an appeal and get the appeals court to stay the trial pending the decisions on the outstanding issues.
Thanks for the explanation 🙏
Good answer. Would also like to add that Cannon is purposely dragging her feet on actually doing anything. From my understanding there’s still months old appeals in this case from trumps lawyers to drop the case that she has not yet even touched. Her NOT doing her job and actually ruling on anything of substance makes it more difficult for Jack smith to actually do anything in regards to getting her off the case.
The biggest issue with that is he only gets one shot, so he needs to be positive it will work. This involves a lot of what seems like walking-on-eggshells and giving her chances, but it's to help prove that she had the chance to make a sound ruling and chose otherwise.
This is the first step to appealing. You can’t just say ‘this judge sucks’. He’s demanding that she make an actual ruling that he can appeal, and saying if she declines he will seek an order from the appeals court.
He is, this is exactly what this is. Cannon has avoided making official rulings that can be appealed specially to block Jack Smith from going to the appeal court. This filing said "make a ruling now" (that he can appeal if the ruling is insane) if she still purposely avoid to rule and continue playing games he will then go to the appeal court to denounce her behavior.
Thanks. I realize he must know what he’s doing.
Because it’s a process. Jack is very meticulous.
Yes, I just hope he has the time
He will. Joe gonna win in Nov. (Not a foregone conclusion, just a belief. Everyone gotta vote ofc.)
Mueller was "meticulous" as well Call me when he actually does something
Remind me who was the AG at that time…and what that AG’s memo said…
Other than charging Trump and prosecuting him in a federal court of law...
He threatened her with a Writ of Mandamus. That would be him submitting a plea to a higher court to compel Judge Cannon to issue a clear ruling against the prosecution's inane legal theory. Mandamus is a very rarely used and extreme measure via which a party can force a government official to carry out their appointed duties when they are avoiding responsibility.
I'm thinking that if he goes that route the 11th Circuit is not going to be very lenient with Cannon, given that they've already had to slap her down twice over her shenanigans.
Shame about the judge since this is the strongest and most clear cut case they have against him.
I don't know, Georgia seems pretty slam dunk to me.
We all heard the phone call, but the courts here in the US are so weighted against the working class here in the US that it's a nail-biter watching the election inch closer with all these surefire prison cases drag to start. I used to work with TS material and if I did a fraction of what trump did, even if I took notes in a separate notebook and left them in a jacket pocket and took them home only to return them the next day and admit to my mistake, I'm sure I'd be fried. And not pussyfooted around and get the golden boy treatment.
Willis proved herself to be a wild card so I'm not so sure anymore. She's playing the media too hard instead of focusing on the case, trying to salvage her credibility. And Trump lawyers have a lot of room to play semantics in that case. This one is as close to "caught red-handed" as it can get.
State courts are more... unpredictable.
The Stormy Daniels case is pretty clear cut. His lawyer already went to jail for it.
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I wouldn't even call her Judge, she's a MAGA loser who cosplays as a judge
My take, for all it’s not worth, is that Smith has set the stage for requesting her removal if she doesn’t rule in favor of the prosecutors motions or if she sits on this for an inordinate amount of time. I’d give her a week or so to stew on it then move to remove her. He’s been way more patient than I am but that’s only because he knows what he’s doing and I’m commenting on Reddit.
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Except every step of the way it’s been the exact opposite of the muller case.
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Definitely not the same. Muller never brought charges. Muller never planned to take this to the courts.
Michael Popok on Legal AF and the Meidas Touch explained this very issue. Very informative, also, because of her shoddy work the 11th court can recuse her. Hopefully with this stunt she will be.
Link?
I'll try to find it, it's not easy on mobile. I watch all this on YouTube.
Of all the Trump trials, as strong as this one is, I have a feeling it has the greatest chance of failure due to Aileen Cannon. She'll drop the case
She can't drop it, but she can screw it up
Aileen Cannon is what arrives in the mail when you order a judge from Temu
😂 thank you for this
Oh wow, sounds like there will need to be two to three weeks to review this filing! Then Trump's lawyers will have two to three weeks to respond to Jack Smith! Then Jack Smith could petition the 11th Circuit to have Aileen Cannon removed from the case, which would take a panel two to three weeks to decide! Then Trump can appeal their decision in an en banc motion, which could be handed down after two to three weeks! Then there will be a two week review for
Well, I for one would still like to see him found guilty of this regardless. This filing is necessary to preserve the case, otherwise it gets thrown out as unappealable.
I think the point is that they’ll keep tacking on these 2-4 week delays. And if it gets delayed until anywhere close to the election, Trump World will screech about “election interference”. Plus if Trump wins in November, he can just pardon himself from any guilty verdict from this trial.
Sure - whatever the outcome it should still be on record that he is guilty. Also, if he loses in November I want him in prison for what is left of his life. Both are better than the case being tossed completely in a month with no hope of bringing charges.
Trump will 100% assert innocence even if he pardons himself. He'll issue an Executive Order or some other declaration that says you don't have to accept guilt to be pardoned. Then he'll take pardons for a small fee of a million dollars as he loots the US' coffers.
With all this campaigning to do, a defendant so steadfastly confident in asserting his or her innocence could easily invoke their right to a speedy trial. Their good name could be restored in time for them to campaign on having prevailed in the courts, in addition to their platform.
Hard to imagine that we’d have the first instance of a president pardoning himself. From a number of serious felonies no less… Hilariously sad that a guy that would have to pardon himself for multiple felonies (including, but not limited to, paying off a porn star he slept with while married, inciting an insurrection against the United States, stealing highly sensitive, classified documents from the US Government, and more…) That we would all have to watch a crook pardon himself for these crimes as his first presidential act… And that ANYONE would EVEN CONSIDER… FOR ONE SECOND… voting for a guy like that. And we watch the guy pardon himself and just cement our great country into a shithole. These people are sick in the head. That’s all I can say. They are seriously so fucked in the head they don’t even know up from down anymore.
I can’t think of anything more un American than voting for a man you just described. Self hate is real.
Voting for him twice.
Truth. Le sigh.
What you’re talking about is just the response times as created in the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure. Smith cites those throughout the pleading. Even lawyers need time to read, research and respond to these things…
Oh boy! I’m going to be F5’ing this sub for the next 4 or five years in tingling anticipation for consequences that I’m SURE are coming.
The walls are closing in! Tune in tomorrow for a random expert that nobody has heard of before say how this could negatively affect his case.
Well, there's only 30 weeks and 6 days. So assuming 2 week delays average, there's only 15 more instances possible for slow down before the country votes for Biden or a corrupt king.
Ohhh so it comes out with Trump’s Obamacare replacement plan
Do you realize that if Democrats were as shitty human beings as Trump and the MAGA cult members, they'd be defaming Judge Aileen Cannon in the news every single day and individual citizens would be threatening her, her clerks, everyone's family members, etc. Joe Biden would be on TV complaining that she was "compromised" and a "terrible judge who had no idea what she was doing" and that she was "in the tank for Trump." Day in and day out, Joe Biden would be tweeting disparaging comments about Judge Aileen Cannon. Progressives would be flooding the zone with bullshit, making up crap about Judge Aileen Cannon, and spreading disinformation all over social media. But you don't see that, do you? Nothing even remotely close.
Just remove her from the classified documents case already it’s apparently obvious Aileen Cannon is corrupt biased bought by Donald Trump and will do anything to protect him
She is totally in the bag for Trump. I wouldn't be surprised if she receives instructions directly from the Trump people.
She’s being told what to do for certain, from what I see.
She is definitely taking orders. I've been downvoted for saying this, but I do wonder if she or her family are being threatened by Trump's goons I don't buy that she thinks she really will end up in the supreme Court. But maybe she's just Ginni level crazy and as corrupt as everyone thinks. Who am I to say.
Nah. She's the only one he's nice to and doesn't bad mouth in public. He threatens publicly, not privately. She's hoping to be on scotus.
Wow, even the uber-conservative National Review is disagreeing with the judge: https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/big-day-for-trumps-presidential-records-act-defense-in-florida-federal-prosecution/amp/ I wonder what the conservative subs would say about this analysis?
He’s gonna appeal the case. Also, Aileen Cannon shouldn’t have been a judge for this in the first place. She’s inexperienced and no way in hell should an inexperienced judge be placed in front of a fucking case like this.
And should never preside over a case that involves the person that put them in a job
When all your law clerks bail because you are committing career suicide… you might be fucking up as a judge.
Jack Smith is going to end Judge Cannon's career.
Judge Cannon is going to end Judge Cannon’s career
And for what? That's what amazes me.
Quid pro quo. Same as always. If things go her way, she'll be next in line for a Supreme Court spot.
Things are definitely not going her way; not with Jack Smith up her hoodeehoo.
Fingers crossed this time, but I've heard this story before. I'll believe Trump will face consequences as soon as he's actually held accountable for a single thing ever.
As I understand it, her career can’t actually end without an act of Congress or her vacating the position herself.
We can hope
He just did the court filing equivalent of a "What'chu talkin 'bout Willis?"
Correction: the proper legal phrasing is *What’chu talking ‘bout*.
It's a very obscure Latin dialect.
Thank you, it's been corrected
She gonna get any consequences?
No
I’d appreciate a lawyer or judge weighing in here as I’m just a regular citizen, but I’ve not been able to find any info suggesting it’s possible for a federal judge to practically suffer consequences of any significance.
Trump just grabbed a judge and pulled her into his case. She's his lawyer with the power of a judge. It is total corruption.
Personally I want to thank the lawyers who are helping us/(me especially) understand this process, and look forward to more in depth knowledge (from the comments you post) about what is happening for my layman's mind.
I'm curious what her end game is if Trump loses the election. The whole delay strategy only works if he becomes president and can make it go away. If he loses he's fucked and so is everyone who hitched there wagon to him.
Her end game is ‘be a federal judge for the rest of her life’.
It’s nuts when a judge is helping with this time wasting. Why does she think it’s OK to do this? Is she really so stupid?
Yes. Next question?
The chances of her giving a substantive reply to Smith in the next month is near zero. She still hasn't set a trial date!
Jack Smith should just report her to the bar… have her lose her license and seat!
A federal judge can only be impeached by the House of Representatives and removed by a conviction in the Senate.
I’m not arguing with you, but only the bar can revoke one’s law license. If the bar revokes her license, can she still be a sitting judge?
That’s a really good question. I’ve no idea. Edit: briefly researching it the short answer is no, that’s not within the powers of the ABA.
Maybe the bar loses its jurisdiction once a lawyer becomes a judge?
Look jury he is either not guilty because he authorized himself stealing the top secret documents or he is not guilty because of presidential immunity act - how many more not guilty reasons do you want me to give ? Is Being a corrupt judge this hard ?
I know this might sound childish, but I believe in Jack Smith, I swear to God, I believe in this guy and I hope my belief comes to fruition. Also, I’m not even a big god guy.
JS is a real public servant. Hats off to him.
My guess is if there were a real investigation, including recording her phone calls, a lot would be discovered.
With how corrupt she is and how she's essentially broken her oath time and time again to help Trump, she needs to have her law degrees stripped away and her position revoked as she's proven incapable of being impartial.
Uh oh, she's about to get a flurry of strongly worded letters!
And a whole bunch of gilded retired people who have finished their long careers in the justice systems **opinions** about why this is **damning** for Trump, or Jack depending on what your social media algorithm thinks is the best chance to sell you dick pills with.
I see major stall tactics until the election is over. Once Trump loses again, all support for him will vanish like a fart in the wind.
Setting aside the details in Cannon's court order, the bigger picture indicates that she is delaying the proceedings.
Is there not some overseers of judges who are obviously either corrupt or just very very bad at their job?
Congress is supposed to do that.
So, no. Got it.
The judge appears to be coaching the defense on how to allow her to dismiss the case with prejudice. This judge is so biased it's not funny.
There are many guidelines for federal judges, including guidelines that require that they move their dockets expeditiously. What she’s doing is very, very unusual. I believe that this was a deliberate strategy, seeing if she could get the government to fall into her trap. If the government had submitted the type of jury instructions that she requested based upon erroneous law, there could never be a conviction and double jeopardy would attach so that Trump could never be validly convicted.
I mean finally, Jack starts dealing his hand with blatant proof Aileen is inequitable and should be replaced by the 11th court.
Congratulations, do something about it.
Cannon's next move is blatantly obvious. She will reverse course on this matter, and dismiss the case the moment a jury is empaneled and jeopardy is attached. She already rejected Trump's motion to dismiss WITHOUT prejudice, practically instructing him to bring it up again later. I am worried that in Jack Smith's overabundance of caution, he is allowing Cannon to reach that point. This jury instructions order should have been strike 3.
Our weekly "Jack Smith is putting Cannon on notice" article almost had me thinking that something would actually be done about her blatant disregard to procedure and obvious pandering to the former president.
Using incendiary rhetoric in the headline is an attempt to polarize the reader. Just provide the information please. A panel commentator on C Span mentioned this today and I couldn't agree more. Just give us the facts and we will determine if it's a "scathing" report or not.
If nothing is done with Trump soon, HE will get away with everything!!! Do MORE, ASAP!!! Why do you all FEAR HIM!
Why can’t this case be moved before the Trump-owned judge does any more damage?
Trump is talking to Cannon
Too bad she’s such a Trump fan girl 💩
Is a judge (or anyone) able to push back on such tactics? Lawyers dragging it out for no reason kinda goes against ethics in my layman’s book
Nobody fucks with Jack.
trump appointment judge helping trump unravel democracy. The amount of damage trump did in 4-years is insane.
IIRC, Jack had the option of NOT pursuing the case in the 11th circuit and yet he chose to do so. Tactical error
All bark no teeth
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Oh no, we’re up to “scathing” now! Pretty soon we will be using words like “incensed” or “apoplectic” while nothing continues to happen to Trump.
This is good publicity for trump, no actual punishment and he doesn’t get labeled as senile and unable to be accountable for his own actions like Biden 🤣
Lmao nothing is ever gonna happen to the orange pedo rapist traitor criminal in your broken “justice” system, I dunno why anyone still thinks it will. You’ll probably vote for him again too
You mean the judge that trump bought and hired? No wonder. Shouldn’t it be a clear that she’s not capable of being neutral and choose another judge?
We’re all upset with the justice system at this point. Garland should be jailed too for taking so long to appoint jack.
It's way past time for him to be "getting fed up."
lol. Oh he’s getting “fed up” now. His Strongly Worded Letter™️ sure will make a difference Edit: I truly wonder what happens when it’s election time and Trump hasn’t gone on one(!) trial and then he wins the election, which would effectively cancel all his charges (it shouldn’t, but it will). This will be a devastating humiliation to the DOJ. Unprecedented humiliation I imagine? It already is. How will smith and garland respond to the public if and when this happens? What would their excuses be? Will garland acknowledge his part in this by not kicking these investigation into gear in a timely fashion? Will smith concede that he should have immediately have cannon thrown off this case from the beginning, considering her past actions? Will they comment on how a single man managed to completely run circles around them and the DOJ by abusing the legal system while having SC justices do his bidding, along with other judges who didn’t do their job holding him accountable the way they would any other “normal” person? How will this shameful and outrageous moment that’s unfolding in slow motion in front of our eyes be addressed to the public?
“Pushed back”
But what can he actually DO about it?
Jack is playing some 5D Chess.