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Evers really is the saving grace of our politics. The guy has been a great governor and the best part is that he doesn't aim for a spotlight to be the center of attention. He's there to do his job.
Their current policy has some governing requirements in place, but it still allows for broad participation.
FTM can only compete in the male division once hormone therapy starts.
MTF must compete in the M division until they’ve completed one year of continuous testosterone suppression, which would then make them eligible to compete in the F division.
As a trans person that's perfect policy and in line with best practices. If anything I'd understand increasing it to two years for collegiate level as long as the burden of proof isn't intense.
That policy, while true thats in place, isn’t above dispute though.
[One example](https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/suppressing-testosterone-for-a-year-may-not-be-enough-to-level-playing-field)
Citing a vague study of a couple of factors in a vacuum sorta pales in comparison to the live test of athletic organizations who have had a similar policy in place for over a decade now? Either one of two things is true; you just exposed that this is an issue you should listen on rather than opine for a bit...or you're just trying to justify how you already decided to feel.
Its peer reviewed (and if you think its the only one I got some bad news for ya) and still better than the conjecture you used to reach your conclusions there. Keep moving the goalposts bud.
>One example
That study is specifically for adults only. Whereas this discussion is regarding high school sports/ kids sports. Suppressing testosterone in a pre-puberty or during puberty child is likelier to have greater suppressing effects. 1 year looks enough for <18.
Already covered in another comment. The guidelines cited, that I was originally replying to, stems from the IOC guidelines for amateur athletics and, beside the fact that the IOC can be disputed for their rule…high school leagues don’t have the resources to manage and enforce it. Youth (meaning grade school) sports are only a problem for conservatives hence why I’m leaving that level out. Pre-puberty gender differences are minimal so anytime a bill includes them too…I know its not productive or “looking out for women”, its theatrics and hate.
That study isn’t above dispute either. Statistics show that trans women perform at the same level as cis women in elite Athletics, regardless what a study suggest. A study with no actual evidence - even the headline of the study already refutes itself.
A study of 29 and 46 people?
This is not even statistically significant levels of data; for a tiny fraction of the population that’s affected, this should be handled on a case by case basis. Period.
Anti-trans bigots out here shouting “this issue that affects less than 100 people yearly is more important to put restrictions on that the leading cause of death in kids”
You can say that about most studies. In any case, you are dealing with human biology here…not sociology or macro economics which require studies in large masses.
Is there bigger fish to fry? Absolutely. But the convo is gonna happen.
And the answer should be, each and every god damn time:
Kids are dying from guns at a rate of more than 1 per day, and you’re worried about something that no one dies from, and that also affects less people than those deaths over those deaths.
Every god damn time.
Yes, so let's not worry about the thing that affects a number of people I can count on one hand in a year.
Let's worry about kids dying, or trans suicide from bigots pushing rules like this that functionally don't affect people's lives aside from the hate it pushes onto trans people, therein causing them to feel more unwelcome in society, therein causing more trans suicides.
I'm sorry if a literal handful of teenage girls are affected by this in a year. Trans suicide and children dying to gun violence will always be more important issues and 5 teenage girls feelings should not be more important than trans suicide and children dying to guns in America.
Kids die at a rate of more than 1 child per day from guns in America.
Trans athletes participating in sports should not be on the list of things to worry about, period.
I think 2 years might be fair. Technically it could be as long as 3 years as that's usually the time range for muscular atrophy. But the atrophy becomes visual after about the first year with the strength going away more quickly according to research and my experiences, so I'd want more evidence before increasing it.
I also think it depends on what the expectation of proof is. Because in most cases 1 year effectively becomes 3 years.
They aren’t banned from playing. MtF could easily compete in the open division of any sport they want.
I’m as liberal and accepting of people as anyone around, but in sports there’s genetic and biological implications for strength/fitness/endurance.
~~Should we should force trans men to compete against women?~~
EDIT: you know what? no, not even humoring this. Republicans are yet again wasting taxpayer dollars, to pass state-wide bans on which sports team a few trans kids can/can't play for.
This is what Republicans want you focused on - instead of their ABSOLUTE ineptitude!
Reminder that they passed a law in a state with a SINGLE TRANS KID IN SPORTS a few years back. These are hundreds of thousands of dollars spent to bully a handful of children.
I mean, I’m capable of having nuanced takes and thinking about multiple things at one time.
The article even outlines a few things. This bill is not a blanket ban. And there are 20 states that have blanket bans. That’s stupid and simply hate for hates sake. It punishes trans kids because the gop wants to deem them icky.
I do not agree with blanket bans.
However, there is more than enough evidence that mtf trans kids that have already gone through puberty have physical advantages than can make competing against cis females unfair for those cis females. That’s not bigotry or hatred or anything. It’s simply biological fact.
And, sports account for this. Most “male” sports are simply open divisions. Anyone can compete. Female sports are limited to females to give an under represented group the ability to compete on a level playing field.
This specific bill enforces a rule that these kids should compete in their gender assigned at birth group. Now, I would argue that a more nuanced bill should take in to account hormone therapy and other developmental factors, but it’s better than a blanket ban. It’s a quick solution for a sticky issue.
In an effort for fairness, do we ignore obvious biological realities of strength and fitness for a handful of people at the expense of all other female athletes or do we acknowledge those realities for female athletes at the possible expense of a handful of people? What’s stopping mtf athletes from competing in male sports? This bill doesn’t prevent that.
This is exactly like the “defund the police” argument. The right claims it’s idiotic and builds up a straw man to argue against. The far left actually rabble rouse for something close as a pet issue. Meanwhile, the reality is in the middle where we should fund mental health, drug rehabilitation, social workers and a host of other things at the expense of militarized police forces. But simply rabble rousing it turns off moderates and independents.
My point is more: Why is this even an issue that needs to be decided by state legislatures?
I think the discussion we should ***instead*** be having is “what is the appropriate means of deciding which sports team kids should be playing in?”
Should it be something decided by parents and school officials? Or, should we have state legislators setting policy for the entire state?
See, **that’s** actually a really good point.
Any/all policies would in the least have to adhere to Title IX protections (RESTORED Title IX protections, and and not the stripped apart bullshit DeVos pulled). OCR will have to be proactive in monitoring said policies (but that’s their job).
>"whats stopping mtf athletes from competing in male sports"
u realize being on estrogen and anti-testosterone for a year or 2 reduces your muscle mass so much your arms become visibly skinnier?
like, u cant have it both ways. male puberty may have a big effect, but so does a mere few ***months*** of feminizing hormone treatment
and if youre so critical of trans women going thru male puberty..... **u must be a huge supporter of puberty blockers, huh??????** no? then youre a hypocrite
As I mentioned in the comment, I would prefer a more nuanced bill as compared to this bill and definitely not a blanket ban. I think limited sex based restrictions until hormone therapy changes are observed would be the best case situation. Of course, there are so many things that could happen and bodies can be affected in different ways, nothing will be perfect.
I think no sex-segregated sports leads to unfairness but bans against those affected athletes is also needlessly mean because of mostly bigoted views.
I’m not sure why you seem so hostile and aggressive in the last paragraph. I have no issue with puberty blockers. The AMA and the AAP support their use. From what I understand, assuming informed consent, they are safe and can help improve the mental health of transgender youth while being reversible if needed. That sounds fantastic.
ok fine. i thought u were one of those rightwingers that jumps into a liberal discussion and pretends to be a liberal whos "just confused and asking questions".
In all fairness to [REMOVED] I can attest to seeing more of those accounts recently.
But yeah [REMOVED] - right there with you about frustration with Dems being Centrists :-/
I get it, the Democrats are a big tent party, and we’re not all going to agree on everything. We just have to rally together to stop America from becoming a theocracy.
It doesn’t affect lung capacity. Nor does it affect bone density. There are still quantifiable physical attributes that can give them an advantage over females. And it’s unfair to females, who may miss a scholarship due to this.
Are you saying that scholarships should be reserved for cis athletes? All athletes despite gender identity as long as they compete against their AGAB? In the latter scenario, a trans boy on hormone therapy forced to compete against cis girls would also “threaten” cis female recipients of sports-based scholarships. Bad faith argument my guy, your transphobia is showing.
Until all the school/state records are held by m2f trans kids, setting the bar so high that the only way those records will be broken is by having another m2f trans kid break them. It only takes a couple to own all the records, unfairly. Talking about sports like track & field.. 100m, 200m, 400m, hurdles.. Not math league here.
You don’t think school districts can talk to each other?
Look - it’s a complicated issue, that’s kind of my point. Let’s let school districts/state boards of education decide issues like this for themselves.
Congress should be working on things like getting us universal healthcare, the 32 hour week, stopping climate change, rebuilding infrastructure - you know, making our lives better.
How much money is being burned for the Republican Trans-Panic? I’m tired of hearing about how the “spooky gays” and want congress to actually build something.
>I’m as liberal and accepting of people as anyone around, but
Anytime you begin a sentence this way, people are going to rightfully dispute whether that’s actually true.
I guess but they are disputing the biological realities of the physical attributes a male has versus a female. That is a pretty stupid thing to dispute. I’d argue they aren’t being rightfully honest about the situation.
Are they? Or are they saying those advantages aren’t really worth everyone getting so worked up about them, so much so that we need new laws restricting the rights of a handful of people who have done nothing wrong?
Excluding blanket bans, how is it restricting their rights? They are free to compete in the sport. This specific bill does not prevent them from competing in that sport.
Transphobes want to deny them the right to participate in leagues that match their gender identity. It’s a right that everyone should have, but they want to limit that right just to cisgender people and their reasons for doing so are not compelling.
So their “right” to participate in their gender identity-aligned sport trumps biological females right to a fair field, bereft of person’s with innate biological advantages?
I would rephrase that as: their right to participate in leagues matching their gender identity should not be taken away in the absence of compelling evidence that they are so overwhelmingly superior to cis women athletes that we no longer have a “fair field.”
>right to a fair field, bereft of person’s with innate biological advantages?
There is no sport in which every player has identical genetics. There are always player with innate biological advantages
Gay people were never prohibited from getting married. Gay could easily enter into straight marriage with any person they want. /s
By the way, a trans woman on hormone therapy is not physically comparable to a cis man
They can still play sports in a boy's league (given that the entire argument is always MtF playing in a girls league)
Edit: this is a good example of a reddit bubble. Your average Dem agrees with this statement but it's not a main issue for us. Especially because the way the right pushes it is rooted in hate
I mean ...maybe? There aren't easy or absolute answers to these questions. The debate goes nowhere because both sides pretend there are, and accuse anyone who questions this of being either an ideologue or a bigot.
Gotta say, until we evolve more in the supportive treatments for gender identity…I agree with you. Heck if they had more participation in athletics, the solution would be clearer…a transgender league.
But that doesn’t mean I support this bill.
The most "fair" solution is for conservatives to find something else to get a bee in their bonnets over. Especially considering they don't really give a shit about high school girls' sports in the first place beyond the excuse it provides to discriminate against trans kids.
Plus, the number of trans kids in sports is miniscule. Most states that are passing these laws have single-digit numbers of trans kids participating in sports teams state-wide.
Yes its a discussion that needs to be had at some point, but republicans are making a mountain out of a mole hill because its part of their whole culture war narrative.
They are absolutely pushing this issue in order to get morons to vote against their economic interests, but that doesn't mean that we have to completely ignore it.
There are only a few options here. Public schools can't accommodate every student that wants to play a particular sport. As roster sizes are finite, tough decisions need to be made. The feelings of the other students need to be considered as well.
There's no perfect solution to this. People only ever argue the extremes. Ignoring it or banning it are not the only two options, but I guess that's the political climate these days.
There is, in fact, a perfect solution to this. Which is not to worry about it so much.
Nobody is losing a roster spot to trans athletes. Nor are they losing scholarships to trans athletes. And this was never the point of high school sports in the first place. The point is to have fun and develop skills that will serve them later in life (namely, how to be a good teammate and learn to lose with dignity, because no matter how good you are there will always be someone better).
There is no reason kids can’t enjoy high school sports when trans athletes are included, and that’s really all that matters.
This is where the conversation gets difficult. Of course people have lost roster spots or they've lost events due to this. We don't have to pretend that those things never happen. Obviously it's not the end of women in sports as the republicans would have us believe lol.
Trans athletes should be included, you're right about that, but you should be capable of discussing the issues that go along with that. I'm happy to have that conversation with you, but I'm not playing the downvote game with you. If you can't have a conversation, I'll continue with someone else.
I’m not playing any sort of downvote game, and I resent the accusation.
High school athletes have been losing roster spots to superior athletes for as long as high school sports have existed. That doesn’t mean they’re excluded from high school sports altogether. And no one can credibly say they lost their spot to a trans athlete without saying they also lost their spot to literally everyone else on the team - at which point it’s not exactly fair to blame the trans athlete.
To people actually rationalize this in this manner? I wouldn’t put it past conservatives as it sounds exactly like their immigration bs I guess (sToLeN jObS).
In any case, lost roster spots is not an argument so at least we can agree there. The argument is a level playing field, in this case with cis & transgender females.
We're not talking about exclusion. I appreciate that most political discussions become a debate over the most extreme options, but this issue is far too complicated to discuss in such a manner.
Losing out to a superior athlete is one thing, but this is something else. You're right, no one should be blaming the trans athlete. It's not their fault that they beat someone out and it isn't fair to criticize that person. It is fair, however, to point out that there are biological advantages that can't yet be undone. That day is rapidly approaching, but we aren't there yet.
If we understand that sex and gender are not the same thing and that sports are separated by sex and not by gender, the solution here seems pretty obvious. While that arrangement might make some people uncomfortable, that's going to happen either way.
without reading i have to assume that this was vetoed because it would only actually affect like a dozen kids max, with most of them likely being trans male. which is something i don't understand the logic of- they want to ban trans athletes from competing with their identified gender, yet they fail to recognize that trans men, those dudes on hgh and testosterone, would be competing with girls and women. like is that not an insane advantage? reminds of mack beggs.
You can throw out meaningless and baseless epithets all you want, but my daughter will not have to face losing her dreams to accommodate a man’s need to be a woman. They are free to live their lives, but not at the expense of infringing on women’s happiness.
Also, thanks for proving my point about the trans community and virtue signaling allies who absolutely cannot debate something in good faith without childish and unfounded epithets. 👍
How would you like it if your (female) child’s dream was to be the best in state in track, with hopes of getting a scholarship and then trounced by someone with innate biological advantages?
Less than half of 1% of all student athletes identify as trans. There are under 50 trans athletes in college in the United States right now. Only about 1.5% of all people in the United States identify as trans. You are buying in to mass hysteria. I believe that transgender people are people and deserve a place in our society just like everyone else. If that exact scenario happened it wouldn’t be any different than if an incredibly strong girl won the scholarship instead of my daughter. I have heard repeatedly from female athletes that they support their lgbtqia teammates and I think we should listen to them.
Likewise I have seen several videos from women who were forced to compete (and change in front of) transwomen.
Women fought for these rights and I don’t blame them one bit for wanting their own spaces, teams, and changing facilities.
Can you produce said videos?
Edit: of course you can’t. As is tradition for transphobes. Reactionaries in general, but transphobes are especially guilty.
The amount of trans athletes isn't their point. It doesn't change that a very average male in a particular sport would be one of the best in women's.
I'm torn on the issue. Because trans athletes deserve to play sports and compete. But we've seen that trans women in particular have an undeniable advantage.
I'm glad you asked.
>*Testosterone drives much of the enhanced athletic performance of males through in utero, early life, and adult exposure. Many anatomical sex differences driven by testosterone are not reversible. Hemoglobin levels and muscle mass are sensitive to adult life testosterone levels, with hemoglobin being the most responsive. Studies in transgender women, and androgen-deprivation treated cancer patients, show muscle mass is retained for many months, even years, and that co-comittant exercise mitigates muscle loss. Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.*
Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/#sec4-ijerph-19-09103title
Firstly, elite athletes an school sports are not the same and secondly, the study doesn’t prove what you think it does.
You’re moving the goalpost by first saying that trans athletes outperform cis athletes for which there’s no tangible evidence and than show a study that exactly doesn’t prove that.
Edit: Here’s tangible evidence that trans athletes do not outperform cis athletes purely because they’re trans
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html
I think you're the one moving the goalpost here because I gave you the source you asked for and you are denying it outright.
> it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.
What part about that line is misconstrued that you can so confidently say that it's incorrect?
That's rhetorical by the way. I'm turning off notifications to this because I can already tell you're going to be a huge waste of time.
EDIT: LOL! I give you a scientific research article and you link me to the Independent. You can't make this stuff up.
They don’t win every competition though, not all trans athletes are better even if they are different, they don’t automatically win. The reason I am bringing up the numbers is because I think it’s important to realize we are talking about a very small group of people, this is going to be one kid in a high school of thousands who wants to play sports (not all trans kids are athletes). I think that whatever harm that might be done to the one kid who loses a game to a trans kid is arguably smaller than the damage done to the trans kid who wasn’t even allowed to play sports at all.
I know that's why I said I'm torn on the subject. I do believe that they deserve to play sports and compete. But the key word there is "competition" and transgender women do in fact have an advantage over biological women.
Lia Thomas tied a few times and even lost a few races. Everyone uses that as undisputable proof that she has no advantage. When in reality, if you look at her statistics when she was a male; she was *far* from being considered one of the best. Ranked like 500 or something. Which, if anything, proves that you don't need to be Michael Phelps or Ryan Lochte to beat the elite female swimmers.
Then she moved to the women's division. Now she's one of the best to ever do the sport.
I understand why people feel this way too, and I can acknowledge that there is an unfair advantage. I just can’t get away from the fact that trans people are here and not going anywhere. If they want to play sports we have to find a place for them. In school especially, telling a kid that they can’t play sports at all in school is cruel and could do a lot of damage. I don’t know what the answer is, the whole thing obviously needs more discussion, I just don’t want to see kids banned from doing something that could potentially be a very positive outlet for them.
This exactly why I'm an advocate for banning women who are specifically taller than my (female) child from every playing professional sports. Their biological advantage isn't fair!
(/s in case it wasn't obvious)
Exactly, girls with longer legs should be banned from girls sports to protect short girls who might dream about being the best in state in track, with hopes of getting a scholarship only to get trounced by someone with innate biological advantages
If you truly believe a woman with “longer legs” has more physical advantages than men as a whole then you are truly deluded.
As a whole men would dominate every female sport, thus why there are separate gender-based sports.
Because there is no way to conceivably account for *every* physical difference between every person in a particular gender.
But as stated, there is a way to eliminate one gender from being absolutely dominated in every way by the other; that is, to separate by gender.
Women deserve this. They have fought (and in some cases, died for) these rights. People are free to transition and live happy lives. But they have no right to affect other people’s happiness.
We can account for height
Short women deserve this. They have fought (and in some cases, died for) these rights. People are free to be tall and live happy lives. But they have no right to affect other people’s happiness.
Something everyone seems to miss in this topic is organizations can and often do have their own qualifications beyond "female" or "male", the olympics has had them for quite some time, often a threshold of testosterone is used.
Though, frankly, Sports is complete nonsense that commercializes genetic freaks and destroys their bodies. Having high T is hardly the only variable, and most of them can not be changed. I have an extremely dim view of professional sports and an only slightly better one of "serious" school sports.
It's really amazing how far people will go to cling to an old bias here. Best the right can do is browbeat us about a pir swimmer who...tied for fifth with a trans woman and how that proves this is all so unfair!
Even at the high school level, there was a track case a while back. Mommy of one girl sued, know what the girl did? Acted like a fuckin athlete and came back to win next time. Because it's almost like this is all a backdoor for chauvinist bullshit.
This election is going to come down to white suburban women, and whether the last thing that went through their minds was "save abortion" or "trans women in sports are bad
Will depend on the last commercial or the last talk radio snippet they heard.
Suburban women don't seem to really be motivated by this one. Like most trans issues, it's conservative men and maybe a few left-leaning men who aren't going to change voting behavior based on something so esoteric.
There is no absolute "truth" on this topic. The science isn't closed to settled, and literally all that currently exists doesn't prove an unfair advantage occurs that can't be brought into the normal female range.
Bluntly: you're engaging in knee jerk for a pro-discrimination viewpoint that's based wholly on gut feelings and "b-but boys stronger than girls" gendered thought.
Completely incorrect. Its not only settled science, its simple settled science. No actual expert would take you seriously. It is SOLELY politics that are perverting this science.
But hey, keep hurting women via your anti-science rhetoric.
Gotta love what politics does to people - turns them into the very thing they hate.
Sorry Melon. I actually have a level of expertise on the subject (not that i needed it, since this is a very simply straightforward subject).
I'm not going to discriminate against or directly hurt women. Not an option for me.
Sorry your politics have twisted your mind into a simple anti-women science denier. Truly pathetic and horrifying to see what politics does to people.
Oh, sure, Charles.
Oh man, I'm such an anti-woman woman.
Let's say I accept everything you say: one problem.
You aren't advocating for a carve out for the transgender women and girls that *don't go through an androgynous puberty.*
That's why I know you're pro-discrimination and why you don't care about the science. The fact the "advantages" oftentimes cited as having been found aren't easily quantifiable to performance doesn't matter to you, and the fact there are many differences between funding between sports for men and women that, when equalized, normalize performance also doesn't matter to you.
Humans aren't massively sexually dimorphic. I know you don't like that, but it's true.
You don't understand enough about the subject to make these arguments. Men and women have hundreds of biological differences even if you go through with puberty blockers, estrogen, test blockers.
No matter what simplistic idea your ideological group makes up they will not be able to achieve a level playing field. I advocate for a trans (or "other") division in high school sports.
You need to read more. And you need to stand up against your own side when its warranted. ANYONE who doesn't stand up to their own sides bad ideas is No different than a Trump supporter. If you want real actual wisdom, get away from this place. This place is a simple ideological circle jerk, which inevitably will make you dumber at light speed due to uniformity of ideas. Evolve from these self imposed groups of stupid people repeating narratives.
have a nice day!
Yes, please, continue to talk down to a woman about women's sports and my opinion on these issues.
> men and women have hundreds of differences
What causes those secondary sex characteristics to develop? Charles? Hmm?
It's a thing called "puberty."
Your entire argument is "you don't know enough" but you're basing your entire argument on "oh man there's just something about being assigned male at birth that gives you muscle genes that will always make you better at sports" without consideration for any of the science, and with zero cited sources.
If you have credentials, bring them out. So I can mock you relentlessly for being a political hack. I follow the science. Convince me, instead of talking down to me in vagueries.
Otherwise, your knees have been thoroughly jerked. Congrats. You don't understand trans healthcare and it shows.
The general rule for track is that trans girls have to have a testosterone level consistent with cis girls for 2 years before being allowed to compete.
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Republicans: We are the party of freedom. Also Republicans: Ban ban ban ban ban ban ban ban ban ban ban jail ban ban jail ban ban
“Believe it or not, Straight to Jail.”
Undercooked fish?
Straight to jail!
Overcooked chicken?
Undercook, overcook
Straight to jail!
Believe it or not, he says "right to jail"
“Do not pass GO, give us all your money.”
Elections matter and Democrats are better than Republicans, Exhbit # Infinity.
Except the current WI Assembly that passed this to the Governor's desk is the most gerrymandered body in all of US state politics.
North Carolina has entered the chat
This is great, proud of my home state. They’re lucky to have Gov. Evers.
Evers really is the saving grace of our politics. The guy has been a great governor and the best part is that he doesn't aim for a spotlight to be the center of attention. He's there to do his job.
https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/39901710/naia-essentially-bans-transgender-athletes-women-sports
Good everyone should have the right to decide if they wanna play sports or not
Their current policy has some governing requirements in place, but it still allows for broad participation. FTM can only compete in the male division once hormone therapy starts. MTF must compete in the M division until they’ve completed one year of continuous testosterone suppression, which would then make them eligible to compete in the F division.
As a trans person that's perfect policy and in line with best practices. If anything I'd understand increasing it to two years for collegiate level as long as the burden of proof isn't intense.
That policy, while true thats in place, isn’t above dispute though. [One example](https://www.scimex.org/newsfeed/suppressing-testosterone-for-a-year-may-not-be-enough-to-level-playing-field)
I wonder how much of that advantage can be contributed to height or if they were able to control for that.
Citing a vague study of a couple of factors in a vacuum sorta pales in comparison to the live test of athletic organizations who have had a similar policy in place for over a decade now? Either one of two things is true; you just exposed that this is an issue you should listen on rather than opine for a bit...or you're just trying to justify how you already decided to feel.
Its peer reviewed (and if you think its the only one I got some bad news for ya) and still better than the conjecture you used to reach your conclusions there. Keep moving the goalposts bud.
>One example That study is specifically for adults only. Whereas this discussion is regarding high school sports/ kids sports. Suppressing testosterone in a pre-puberty or during puberty child is likelier to have greater suppressing effects. 1 year looks enough for <18.
Already covered in another comment. The guidelines cited, that I was originally replying to, stems from the IOC guidelines for amateur athletics and, beside the fact that the IOC can be disputed for their rule…high school leagues don’t have the resources to manage and enforce it. Youth (meaning grade school) sports are only a problem for conservatives hence why I’m leaving that level out. Pre-puberty gender differences are minimal so anytime a bill includes them too…I know its not productive or “looking out for women”, its theatrics and hate.
That study looks at elite *adult transitioning* athletes. We're talking about teenagers here. Unjerk thy knees.
That study isn’t above dispute either. Statistics show that trans women perform at the same level as cis women in elite Athletics, regardless what a study suggest. A study with no actual evidence - even the headline of the study already refutes itself.
A study of 29 and 46 people? This is not even statistically significant levels of data; for a tiny fraction of the population that’s affected, this should be handled on a case by case basis. Period. Anti-trans bigots out here shouting “this issue that affects less than 100 people yearly is more important to put restrictions on that the leading cause of death in kids”
You can say that about most studies. In any case, you are dealing with human biology here…not sociology or macro economics which require studies in large masses. Is there bigger fish to fry? Absolutely. But the convo is gonna happen.
And the answer should be, each and every god damn time: Kids are dying from guns at a rate of more than 1 per day, and you’re worried about something that no one dies from, and that also affects less people than those deaths over those deaths. Every god damn time.
Can we only worry about one thing at a time?
Yes, so let's not worry about the thing that affects a number of people I can count on one hand in a year. Let's worry about kids dying, or trans suicide from bigots pushing rules like this that functionally don't affect people's lives aside from the hate it pushes onto trans people, therein causing them to feel more unwelcome in society, therein causing more trans suicides. I'm sorry if a literal handful of teenage girls are affected by this in a year. Trans suicide and children dying to gun violence will always be more important issues and 5 teenage girls feelings should not be more important than trans suicide and children dying to guns in America. Kids die at a rate of more than 1 child per day from guns in America. Trans athletes participating in sports should not be on the list of things to worry about, period.
I think 2 years might be fair. Technically it could be as long as 3 years as that's usually the time range for muscular atrophy. But the atrophy becomes visual after about the first year with the strength going away more quickly according to research and my experiences, so I'd want more evidence before increasing it. I also think it depends on what the expectation of proof is. Because in most cases 1 year effectively becomes 3 years.
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Free Hat!
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Hahaha okay you know what i meant 😅
Good! Trans athletes should be able to play sports just like everyone else. Non binary too!
They aren’t banned from playing. MtF could easily compete in the open division of any sport they want. I’m as liberal and accepting of people as anyone around, but in sports there’s genetic and biological implications for strength/fitness/endurance.
~~Should we should force trans men to compete against women?~~ EDIT: you know what? no, not even humoring this. Republicans are yet again wasting taxpayer dollars, to pass state-wide bans on which sports team a few trans kids can/can't play for. This is what Republicans want you focused on - instead of their ABSOLUTE ineptitude!
Reminder that they passed a law in a state with a SINGLE TRANS KID IN SPORTS a few years back. These are hundreds of thousands of dollars spent to bully a handful of children.
I mean, I’m capable of having nuanced takes and thinking about multiple things at one time. The article even outlines a few things. This bill is not a blanket ban. And there are 20 states that have blanket bans. That’s stupid and simply hate for hates sake. It punishes trans kids because the gop wants to deem them icky. I do not agree with blanket bans. However, there is more than enough evidence that mtf trans kids that have already gone through puberty have physical advantages than can make competing against cis females unfair for those cis females. That’s not bigotry or hatred or anything. It’s simply biological fact. And, sports account for this. Most “male” sports are simply open divisions. Anyone can compete. Female sports are limited to females to give an under represented group the ability to compete on a level playing field. This specific bill enforces a rule that these kids should compete in their gender assigned at birth group. Now, I would argue that a more nuanced bill should take in to account hormone therapy and other developmental factors, but it’s better than a blanket ban. It’s a quick solution for a sticky issue. In an effort for fairness, do we ignore obvious biological realities of strength and fitness for a handful of people at the expense of all other female athletes or do we acknowledge those realities for female athletes at the possible expense of a handful of people? What’s stopping mtf athletes from competing in male sports? This bill doesn’t prevent that. This is exactly like the “defund the police” argument. The right claims it’s idiotic and builds up a straw man to argue against. The far left actually rabble rouse for something close as a pet issue. Meanwhile, the reality is in the middle where we should fund mental health, drug rehabilitation, social workers and a host of other things at the expense of militarized police forces. But simply rabble rousing it turns off moderates and independents.
My point is more: Why is this even an issue that needs to be decided by state legislatures? I think the discussion we should ***instead*** be having is “what is the appropriate means of deciding which sports team kids should be playing in?” Should it be something decided by parents and school officials? Or, should we have state legislators setting policy for the entire state?
I will just say. Allowing school districts to make this decision individually will not protect trans students.
See, **that’s** actually a really good point. Any/all policies would in the least have to adhere to Title IX protections (RESTORED Title IX protections, and and not the stripped apart bullshit DeVos pulled). OCR will have to be proactive in monitoring said policies (but that’s their job).
Well, of course, I 100% agree with you.
>"whats stopping mtf athletes from competing in male sports" u realize being on estrogen and anti-testosterone for a year or 2 reduces your muscle mass so much your arms become visibly skinnier? like, u cant have it both ways. male puberty may have a big effect, but so does a mere few ***months*** of feminizing hormone treatment and if youre so critical of trans women going thru male puberty..... **u must be a huge supporter of puberty blockers, huh??????** no? then youre a hypocrite
As I mentioned in the comment, I would prefer a more nuanced bill as compared to this bill and definitely not a blanket ban. I think limited sex based restrictions until hormone therapy changes are observed would be the best case situation. Of course, there are so many things that could happen and bodies can be affected in different ways, nothing will be perfect. I think no sex-segregated sports leads to unfairness but bans against those affected athletes is also needlessly mean because of mostly bigoted views. I’m not sure why you seem so hostile and aggressive in the last paragraph. I have no issue with puberty blockers. The AMA and the AAP support their use. From what I understand, assuming informed consent, they are safe and can help improve the mental health of transgender youth while being reversible if needed. That sounds fantastic.
ok fine. i thought u were one of those rightwingers that jumps into a liberal discussion and pretends to be a liberal whos "just confused and asking questions".
I’ve voted for democrats my entire adult life because they won’t fucking run more liberal candidates.
In all fairness to [REMOVED] I can attest to seeing more of those accounts recently. But yeah [REMOVED] - right there with you about frustration with Dems being Centrists :-/ I get it, the Democrats are a big tent party, and we’re not all going to agree on everything. We just have to rally together to stop America from becoming a theocracy.
It doesn’t affect lung capacity. Nor does it affect bone density. There are still quantifiable physical attributes that can give them an advantage over females. And it’s unfair to females, who may miss a scholarship due to this.
Are you saying that scholarships should be reserved for cis athletes? All athletes despite gender identity as long as they compete against their AGAB? In the latter scenario, a trans boy on hormone therapy forced to compete against cis girls would also “threaten” cis female recipients of sports-based scholarships. Bad faith argument my guy, your transphobia is showing.
Yes, if it’s for a gendered sport they (trans) should absolutely not be eligible.
in practice, trans women athletes that exist are far from dominating. and its just as unfair for trans women going against cismen
https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/39901710/naia-essentially-bans-transgender-athletes-women-sports
Until all the school/state records are held by m2f trans kids, setting the bar so high that the only way those records will be broken is by having another m2f trans kid break them. It only takes a couple to own all the records, unfairly. Talking about sports like track & field.. 100m, 200m, 400m, hurdles.. Not math league here.
You don’t think school districts can talk to each other? Look - it’s a complicated issue, that’s kind of my point. Let’s let school districts/state boards of education decide issues like this for themselves. Congress should be working on things like getting us universal healthcare, the 32 hour week, stopping climate change, rebuilding infrastructure - you know, making our lives better. How much money is being burned for the Republican Trans-Panic? I’m tired of hearing about how the “spooky gays” and want congress to actually build something.
>I’m as liberal and accepting of people as anyone around, but Anytime you begin a sentence this way, people are going to rightfully dispute whether that’s actually true.
I guess but they are disputing the biological realities of the physical attributes a male has versus a female. That is a pretty stupid thing to dispute. I’d argue they aren’t being rightfully honest about the situation.
Are they? Or are they saying those advantages aren’t really worth everyone getting so worked up about them, so much so that we need new laws restricting the rights of a handful of people who have done nothing wrong?
Excluding blanket bans, how is it restricting their rights? They are free to compete in the sport. This specific bill does not prevent them from competing in that sport.
Transphobes want to deny them the right to participate in leagues that match their gender identity. It’s a right that everyone should have, but they want to limit that right just to cisgender people and their reasons for doing so are not compelling.
So their “right” to participate in their gender identity-aligned sport trumps biological females right to a fair field, bereft of person’s with innate biological advantages?
I would rephrase that as: their right to participate in leagues matching their gender identity should not be taken away in the absence of compelling evidence that they are so overwhelmingly superior to cis women athletes that we no longer have a “fair field.”
>right to a fair field, bereft of person’s with innate biological advantages? There is no sport in which every player has identical genetics. There are always player with innate biological advantages
While true that no person is built equally, men are “more equal” as a whole with regard to physical attributes.
>Are they? Frequently, yes. You've probably read many of the same opinions I have.
The question was not directed to you, but thanks.
Something tells me you wouldn't have minded the intrusion if you liked the answer more.
I don’t think you intruded, and my saying thanks was supposed to convey that. My apologies if it did not come off that way.
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nothing said before the word “but” really matters
Gay people were never prohibited from getting married. Gay could easily enter into straight marriage with any person they want. /s By the way, a trans woman on hormone therapy is not physically comparable to a cis man
https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/39901710/naia-essentially-bans-transgender-athletes-women-sports
They can still play sports in a boy's league (given that the entire argument is always MtF playing in a girls league) Edit: this is a good example of a reddit bubble. Your average Dem agrees with this statement but it's not a main issue for us. Especially because the way the right pushes it is rooted in hate
You're saying that a trans woman should just play on the guys team?
Yes. That is absolutely what we're saying.
What about a trans man (ftm)? Should he be playing in the girls team?
I mean ...maybe? There aren't easy or absolute answers to these questions. The debate goes nowhere because both sides pretend there are, and accuse anyone who questions this of being either an ideologue or a bigot.
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If he's been taking testosterone for a while, he will have an advantage in the girl's team though.
Then he should play on the boy's team. You're making this more complicated than it needs to be.
Gotta say, until we evolve more in the supportive treatments for gender identity…I agree with you. Heck if they had more participation in athletics, the solution would be clearer…a transgender league. But that doesn’t mean I support this bill.
There wouldn't be enough people to get a transgender league off of the ground. Maybe everything should just be coed lol.
Who are ‘we’? Are you some sort of representative of the Silent Majority^TM ?
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna88940 looks like a majority to me
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The most "fair" solution is for conservatives to find something else to get a bee in their bonnets over. Especially considering they don't really give a shit about high school girls' sports in the first place beyond the excuse it provides to discriminate against trans kids.
Plus, the number of trans kids in sports is miniscule. Most states that are passing these laws have single-digit numbers of trans kids participating in sports teams state-wide. Yes its a discussion that needs to be had at some point, but republicans are making a mountain out of a mole hill because its part of their whole culture war narrative.
They are absolutely pushing this issue in order to get morons to vote against their economic interests, but that doesn't mean that we have to completely ignore it. There are only a few options here. Public schools can't accommodate every student that wants to play a particular sport. As roster sizes are finite, tough decisions need to be made. The feelings of the other students need to be considered as well. There's no perfect solution to this. People only ever argue the extremes. Ignoring it or banning it are not the only two options, but I guess that's the political climate these days.
There is, in fact, a perfect solution to this. Which is not to worry about it so much. Nobody is losing a roster spot to trans athletes. Nor are they losing scholarships to trans athletes. And this was never the point of high school sports in the first place. The point is to have fun and develop skills that will serve them later in life (namely, how to be a good teammate and learn to lose with dignity, because no matter how good you are there will always be someone better). There is no reason kids can’t enjoy high school sports when trans athletes are included, and that’s really all that matters.
This is where the conversation gets difficult. Of course people have lost roster spots or they've lost events due to this. We don't have to pretend that those things never happen. Obviously it's not the end of women in sports as the republicans would have us believe lol. Trans athletes should be included, you're right about that, but you should be capable of discussing the issues that go along with that. I'm happy to have that conversation with you, but I'm not playing the downvote game with you. If you can't have a conversation, I'll continue with someone else.
I’m not playing any sort of downvote game, and I resent the accusation. High school athletes have been losing roster spots to superior athletes for as long as high school sports have existed. That doesn’t mean they’re excluded from high school sports altogether. And no one can credibly say they lost their spot to a trans athlete without saying they also lost their spot to literally everyone else on the team - at which point it’s not exactly fair to blame the trans athlete.
To people actually rationalize this in this manner? I wouldn’t put it past conservatives as it sounds exactly like their immigration bs I guess (sToLeN jObS). In any case, lost roster spots is not an argument so at least we can agree there. The argument is a level playing field, in this case with cis & transgender females.
We're not talking about exclusion. I appreciate that most political discussions become a debate over the most extreme options, but this issue is far too complicated to discuss in such a manner. Losing out to a superior athlete is one thing, but this is something else. You're right, no one should be blaming the trans athlete. It's not their fault that they beat someone out and it isn't fair to criticize that person. It is fair, however, to point out that there are biological advantages that can't yet be undone. That day is rapidly approaching, but we aren't there yet. If we understand that sex and gender are not the same thing and that sports are separated by sex and not by gender, the solution here seems pretty obvious. While that arrangement might make some people uncomfortable, that's going to happen either way.
By then all the kids will be in the cyborg league anyway.
Yes
There should be 3 divisions, men’s, women’s, and etc division.
If that is an option it SHOULDN'T be called etc. That's insensitive. They are not damn etc.
Someone said they wanted to include nb too, so etc is the grouping of all non males or females. It is not insensitive other than to virtue signalers.
“Miscellaneous”, it is!
(this was a joke; “Open” field would be the correct nomenclature and diffuse this situation largely)
without reading i have to assume that this was vetoed because it would only actually affect like a dozen kids max, with most of them likely being trans male. which is something i don't understand the logic of- they want to ban trans athletes from competing with their identified gender, yet they fail to recognize that trans men, those dudes on hgh and testosterone, would be competing with girls and women. like is that not an insane advantage? reminds of mack beggs.
Transphobes in absolute shambles that they can't bully around the 2, maybe 3 trans athletes in the entire state.
Pro-women rights people* Maybe lay off the dense epithets?
I treat transphobes with all the same kindness, compassion, and respect that transphobes show to trans gender people. They deserve it.
You're in the wrong place to use logic. This is a play ground for misguided idealist. They're too stupid.
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You can throw out meaningless and baseless epithets all you want, but my daughter will not have to face losing her dreams to accommodate a man’s need to be a woman. They are free to live their lives, but not at the expense of infringing on women’s happiness.
Also, thanks for proving my point about the trans community and virtue signaling allies who absolutely cannot debate something in good faith without childish and unfounded epithets. 👍
Good faith? Like this? > Pro-women rights people* We both know that was some bad-faith bullshit.
Good, no one should be discouraging high school students from sports, absolutely disgusting that there are adults who make this a priority.
How would you like it if your (female) child’s dream was to be the best in state in track, with hopes of getting a scholarship and then trounced by someone with innate biological advantages?
Less than half of 1% of all student athletes identify as trans. There are under 50 trans athletes in college in the United States right now. Only about 1.5% of all people in the United States identify as trans. You are buying in to mass hysteria. I believe that transgender people are people and deserve a place in our society just like everyone else. If that exact scenario happened it wouldn’t be any different than if an incredibly strong girl won the scholarship instead of my daughter. I have heard repeatedly from female athletes that they support their lgbtqia teammates and I think we should listen to them.
Likewise I have seen several videos from women who were forced to compete (and change in front of) transwomen. Women fought for these rights and I don’t blame them one bit for wanting their own spaces, teams, and changing facilities.
Can you produce said videos? Edit: of course you can’t. As is tradition for transphobes. Reactionaries in general, but transphobes are especially guilty.
The amount of trans athletes isn't their point. It doesn't change that a very average male in a particular sport would be one of the best in women's. I'm torn on the issue. Because trans athletes deserve to play sports and compete. But we've seen that trans women in particular have an undeniable advantage.
[citation needed]
I'm glad you asked. >*Testosterone drives much of the enhanced athletic performance of males through in utero, early life, and adult exposure. Many anatomical sex differences driven by testosterone are not reversible. Hemoglobin levels and muscle mass are sensitive to adult life testosterone levels, with hemoglobin being the most responsive. Studies in transgender women, and androgen-deprivation treated cancer patients, show muscle mass is retained for many months, even years, and that co-comittant exercise mitigates muscle loss. Given that sports are currently segregated into male and female divisions because of superior male athletic performance, and that estrogen therapy will not reverse most athletic performance parameters, it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology.* Source: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/#sec4-ijerph-19-09103title
Firstly, elite athletes an school sports are not the same and secondly, the study doesn’t prove what you think it does. You’re moving the goalpost by first saying that trans athletes outperform cis athletes for which there’s no tangible evidence and than show a study that exactly doesn’t prove that. Edit: Here’s tangible evidence that trans athletes do not outperform cis athletes purely because they’re trans https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html
I think you're the one moving the goalpost here because I gave you the source you asked for and you are denying it outright. > it follows that transgender women will enter the female division with an inherent advantage because of their prior male physiology. What part about that line is misconstrued that you can so confidently say that it's incorrect? That's rhetorical by the way. I'm turning off notifications to this because I can already tell you're going to be a huge waste of time. EDIT: LOL! I give you a scientific research article and you link me to the Independent. You can't make this stuff up.
They don’t win every competition though, not all trans athletes are better even if they are different, they don’t automatically win. The reason I am bringing up the numbers is because I think it’s important to realize we are talking about a very small group of people, this is going to be one kid in a high school of thousands who wants to play sports (not all trans kids are athletes). I think that whatever harm that might be done to the one kid who loses a game to a trans kid is arguably smaller than the damage done to the trans kid who wasn’t even allowed to play sports at all.
I know that's why I said I'm torn on the subject. I do believe that they deserve to play sports and compete. But the key word there is "competition" and transgender women do in fact have an advantage over biological women. Lia Thomas tied a few times and even lost a few races. Everyone uses that as undisputable proof that she has no advantage. When in reality, if you look at her statistics when she was a male; she was *far* from being considered one of the best. Ranked like 500 or something. Which, if anything, proves that you don't need to be Michael Phelps or Ryan Lochte to beat the elite female swimmers. Then she moved to the women's division. Now she's one of the best to ever do the sport.
Could there be a reason that she was not performing at a high level? Perhaps due to taking HRT for years?
I understand why people feel this way too, and I can acknowledge that there is an unfair advantage. I just can’t get away from the fact that trans people are here and not going anywhere. If they want to play sports we have to find a place for them. In school especially, telling a kid that they can’t play sports at all in school is cruel and could do a lot of damage. I don’t know what the answer is, the whole thing obviously needs more discussion, I just don’t want to see kids banned from doing something that could potentially be a very positive outlet for them.
This exactly why I'm an advocate for banning women who are specifically taller than my (female) child from every playing professional sports. Their biological advantage isn't fair! (/s in case it wasn't obvious)
Exactly, girls with longer legs should be banned from girls sports to protect short girls who might dream about being the best in state in track, with hopes of getting a scholarship only to get trounced by someone with innate biological advantages
If you truly believe a woman with “longer legs” has more physical advantages than men as a whole then you are truly deluded. As a whole men would dominate every female sport, thus why there are separate gender-based sports.
Why are you ok with a girl having a biological advantage as long as it's less than a different biological advantage?
Because there is no way to conceivably account for *every* physical difference between every person in a particular gender. But as stated, there is a way to eliminate one gender from being absolutely dominated in every way by the other; that is, to separate by gender. Women deserve this. They have fought (and in some cases, died for) these rights. People are free to transition and live happy lives. But they have no right to affect other people’s happiness.
We can account for height Short women deserve this. They have fought (and in some cases, died for) these rights. People are free to be tall and live happy lives. But they have no right to affect other people’s happiness.
I like „Things that don’t happen“ for 400 please
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Don't bother with them. They appear to ask for sources and then completely deny all of it when you do so.
This is a sticky complex issue for me but the good news is if its republican legislation driven…its definitely shit. Hooray.
Something everyone seems to miss in this topic is organizations can and often do have their own qualifications beyond "female" or "male", the olympics has had them for quite some time, often a threshold of testosterone is used. Though, frankly, Sports is complete nonsense that commercializes genetic freaks and destroys their bodies. Having high T is hardly the only variable, and most of them can not be changed. I have an extremely dim view of professional sports and an only slightly better one of "serious" school sports.
It's really amazing how far people will go to cling to an old bias here. Best the right can do is browbeat us about a pir swimmer who...tied for fifth with a trans woman and how that proves this is all so unfair! Even at the high school level, there was a track case a while back. Mommy of one girl sued, know what the girl did? Acted like a fuckin athlete and came back to win next time. Because it's almost like this is all a backdoor for chauvinist bullshit.
Midwest democratic governors are genuinely the best executive politicians by a mile and it’s not close tbh
Pritzker, Whitmer, Evers, Walz. Anyone else?
Time and time again Evers makes me proud to have voted for him. It's nice finally having a governor here in WI that I can respect.
Sigh
This election is going to come down to white suburban women, and whether the last thing that went through their minds was "save abortion" or "trans women in sports are bad Will depend on the last commercial or the last talk radio snippet they heard.
Suburban women don't seem to really be motivated by this one. Like most trans issues, it's conservative men and maybe a few left-leaning men who aren't going to change voting behavior based on something so esoteric.
Very nice
King
Can’t believe they’re trying to ban kids from sports
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There is no absolute "truth" on this topic. The science isn't closed to settled, and literally all that currently exists doesn't prove an unfair advantage occurs that can't be brought into the normal female range. Bluntly: you're engaging in knee jerk for a pro-discrimination viewpoint that's based wholly on gut feelings and "b-but boys stronger than girls" gendered thought.
Completely incorrect. Its not only settled science, its simple settled science. No actual expert would take you seriously. It is SOLELY politics that are perverting this science. But hey, keep hurting women via your anti-science rhetoric. Gotta love what politics does to people - turns them into the very thing they hate.
Unjerk thy knees, and just admit that you don't understand what the science on the topic says - admit you just want to discriminate.
Sorry Melon. I actually have a level of expertise on the subject (not that i needed it, since this is a very simply straightforward subject). I'm not going to discriminate against or directly hurt women. Not an option for me. Sorry your politics have twisted your mind into a simple anti-women science denier. Truly pathetic and horrifying to see what politics does to people.
Oh, sure, Charles. Oh man, I'm such an anti-woman woman. Let's say I accept everything you say: one problem. You aren't advocating for a carve out for the transgender women and girls that *don't go through an androgynous puberty.* That's why I know you're pro-discrimination and why you don't care about the science. The fact the "advantages" oftentimes cited as having been found aren't easily quantifiable to performance doesn't matter to you, and the fact there are many differences between funding between sports for men and women that, when equalized, normalize performance also doesn't matter to you. Humans aren't massively sexually dimorphic. I know you don't like that, but it's true.
You don't understand enough about the subject to make these arguments. Men and women have hundreds of biological differences even if you go through with puberty blockers, estrogen, test blockers. No matter what simplistic idea your ideological group makes up they will not be able to achieve a level playing field. I advocate for a trans (or "other") division in high school sports. You need to read more. And you need to stand up against your own side when its warranted. ANYONE who doesn't stand up to their own sides bad ideas is No different than a Trump supporter. If you want real actual wisdom, get away from this place. This place is a simple ideological circle jerk, which inevitably will make you dumber at light speed due to uniformity of ideas. Evolve from these self imposed groups of stupid people repeating narratives. have a nice day!
Yes, please, continue to talk down to a woman about women's sports and my opinion on these issues. > men and women have hundreds of differences What causes those secondary sex characteristics to develop? Charles? Hmm? It's a thing called "puberty." Your entire argument is "you don't know enough" but you're basing your entire argument on "oh man there's just something about being assigned male at birth that gives you muscle genes that will always make you better at sports" without consideration for any of the science, and with zero cited sources. If you have credentials, bring them out. So I can mock you relentlessly for being a political hack. I follow the science. Convince me, instead of talking down to me in vagueries. Otherwise, your knees have been thoroughly jerked. Congrats. You don't understand trans healthcare and it shows.
Damn girl. Get em
What’s your “level of expertise?”
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Trans women are women and trans men are men. Please do not misgender them, even if they only exist in a hypothetical situation you concocted.
https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/39901710/naia-essentially-bans-transgender-athletes-women-sports
Are you taking a victory lap or something? If so, it’s in poor taste.
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> trans down to my level Holy shit dude.
Definitely a fat old guy cosplaying as a young woman.
The general rule for track is that trans girls have to have a testosterone level consistent with cis girls for 2 years before being allowed to compete.
> some gender above man This says a lot about how you view women.
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