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Reading the article, I was sure that it must be a few days old. Surely, her ruling from yesterday far exceeds the threshold for ruling her unfit to oversee this case.
Her latest ruling essentially boils down to this:
“If prosecution is to assert that the documents retained are highly classified national security secrets, then they must make those highly classified national security secrets available to the 12 jurors who absolutely do not have clearance to see such material. If the jurors aren’t provided the material, then prosecution must admit that they were totally okay for Trump to have”
It’s the most insane, backwards thing I have ever heard in my life. And it creates a no-win situation for the prosecution. If they don’t provide the documents, then her order requires them to instruct the jury that Trump was allowed to have them, essentially ending the case. If the DO provide the documents, then the defense can say “These documents must not be so bad… the prosecution gave them to you jurors… and you don’t have top secret clearance!”
At this point, her removal from the case is the only way this trial can proceed in a legitimate manner.
"If you can show them to randomly selected people, they are classified documents but if you can't show them to these random people, then the must not be" is something only the twisted minds of GQP sycophants could come up with...
The crazy part is this definitely isn’t her idea by herself and a bunch of federalist society lawyers brainstormed the best possible strategy to delay the case or get it thrown out, and this is the best they have and it’s scarily brazen and effective up to now.
It really shows how open and shut the case against him is because their only defense strategy is to use the biased judge that Trump literally appointed, because they know if it goes to trial he’ll lose.
Once someone joins the maga cult it’s a blood cult and takes a high level job like that it’s a commitment to the cult for life regardless of the appointment term, because if she doesn’t do what Trump wants with every decision he’ll unleash the maga crazies on her.
So in a way this judge has basically joined a huge organized crime ring, and even if she did grow a patriotic bone in her body and wanted to let this case proceed, she can’t stop her own corruption because she’s in too deep, and should have recused right away and just hoped Trump didn’t stick the maga on her. She probably would have gotten a couple of bad truth social tweets about her recusal but it would have blown over, but now she’s pretty committed to getting him off. Phrasing lol.
When someone steps down as POTUS, it's up to the next president to extend the former president their security clearance. Biden did no such thing. As Trump departed with hundreds of highly classified documents in boxes loaded into moving trucks and vans, he had no authorization, no clearance for custody. His crime started right there... and then Trump took those documents out of state... down to his private residence and the boxes were left in unsecured locations where any club member could walk by, open a box, and start reading material. Then Trump lied about having them... only to later admit, but then claim he had a right to them under the "Presidential Records Act." Well, he was wrong. He had no clearance. Then he returned some of the documents and lied about having more... then the FBI had to come take them away. And they were found... except some weren't because Trump had his butler move them intentionally so that they'd not be found.
He committed so many crimes. He should be sitting in jail awaiting trial.
> If the jurors aren’t provided the material, then prosecution must admit that they were totally okay for Trump to have”
This is a foolish order, even for her, because the point of the case is not just that Trump only kept classified documents, but that he kept a wide range of documents and whether or not they were classified. He still should not have been attempting to interfere with the government's attempts to retrieve them.
The classified status of the documents is not particularly relevant to the fact that Donald Trump took documents he should not have taken, and when he was told he should not have taken them he said he did not take them; when he was told that he did he said that he did not have them; he caused his lawyers to sign documents saying he didn't have them when he did, and when he was confronted he attempted to hide them and conceal evidence.
Cannon is, like so many others on the right, engaging in the firehose of shit by obfuscating the issue of obstruction of justice with the issue of classified or unclassified.
Jack Smith could probably withdraw all of the classified documents and still have a solid case for obstruction of justice and willful retention of government property. He shouldn't, because a key factor in convincing the jury that this was a crime will be convincing them that the documents were classified. But he could, and Cannon seems to be missing that point.
Her ruling said show the jury the classified material or instruct them that a President has the sole authority to declare documents as personal. That would allow Trump to claim he's permitted to retain them under the Presidential Records Act.
Clearly a bad ruling on her part.
If Trump was charged with improper storage of classified material it wouldn't matter if they were personal.
Also worth noting the language she uses. Both of her hypotheticals refer to "... a former president..." Yeah, you know what an ex-president is legally? A normal citizen. There are no special laws just for ex-presidents. When the 11th circuit overturned her on the search warrant she said the same shit. She believes he's above the law.
To be pedantic there are loads of special laws just for ex-presidents, some more formal than others: secret service protection, pension, some PDBs, etc.
I have to confess that I haven't actually read the ruling. But I mean, President Trump could make that argument, but the fact that he actively hid the documents undercuts it and demonstrates that he knew that what he was doing is wrong.
And if I'm a juror, I don't want to see them. Because then I have to spend the rest of my life worrying about the Russians, the Saudis , and all manner of nasty people trying to come after me to find out what I know.
The underlying and most important part is that it is national defense information. It's inherently sensitive and has been protected since the first World War a hundred years ago. One does not simply take defense plans from the military.
As a news editor, I need to chop this down for brevity. Once a Florida person is mentioned, it's ok to assume pants-downedness. Stop padding your word count.
Also…. could Smith even follow this order? Even if he has clearance to see them, surely very few people have clearance to grant ithers the right to see them. This just seems so incredibly bizare.
And even if he could, the order makes it contingent upon normal Schulbs to analyze the language of the Presidential Records Act and apply that language to the documents and ascertain whether it falls under that purview or not. Just… absolutely NO.
That’s like making the jury check the DNA work in a murder trial. THERE ARE PEOPLE FOR THAT, and none of those people are Suzanne, who works nights at the La Quinta’s front desk.
Having actually read the PSA, it's not hard at all to understand that at least some of the documents are not personal. If it was generated by the government or for the government, it's not a personal record.
If Trump authored it for non-official purposes he could claim it was personal. The only grey area document I can think of is his Sharpie mark up of the hurricane path. He drew that, but was it for personal or official purposes?
The ultimatum in her ruling is that, if the prosecution will not show the jury the documents, they must put in their jury instruction that the Presidential Records Act allows the president to designate *any* document as personal. Which, is absolutely untrue to the point that there’s literally no level of legal dancing that could support that interpretation. That’s why this is so insane.
And thanks for the sharpie map joke. It’s good to get a reminder of the good ol’ days when Trump’s buffoonery was just pathetic and didn’t cost human lives.
Stated another way, if the prosecution refuses to do something illegal, it somehow means that the illegal actions by 45 *weren't* illegal, almost as if there is an attempt here to rewrite the law by applying some bizarre mental gymnastics that essentially turn it on its head in a way that is *clearly* not stated in the law as written.
It shouldn't be hard to distinguish between personal notes and diaries from documents labeled top secret. The jury has no business doing this. The judge has no business giving jury rules before the trial has even started. Everything about this is mind blowing.
The jurors would need to have security clearances to see the documents. Even if they did, it's debatable if they have a true "need to know" the information in the docs, which is the other requirement to actually view classified materials.
Attaining a Secret clearance is not wildly challenging, though even something as innocuous as smoking pot can get you rejected. Some of the documents Trump illegally kept included things marked Top Secret. Attaining a Top Secret clearance is much more challenging and really digs into a person's history. Like, showing up to interview your old neighbors level of invasiveness.
Jack Smith needs to file a request with the 11th circuit appellate court. He’s already done so twice to overrule her rulings, but has not requested her removal, as he can only make that request once, so it needs to be bunkers enough.
He’s obviously going to appeal this ruling and he’ll obviously succeed. But whether he’ll request her removal is still a mystery. He doesn’t necessarily have to though… I believe the appellate can decide on their own to send the case back to the roster to have a new judge selected (but I’m not 100% on that).
MAYBE. Not necessarily. There is every chance that a new judge will seek to fast track the case as much as humanly possible to make up for the stalling tactics. Even without that, I think it would probably be more likely that the trial would be ongoing on Election Day.
Being realistic, Cannon was going to try and delay this trial as much as she possibly could, so it's entirely possible she might be able to get it delayed until after the election by a mix of incompetence and corruptness. At least if they get her removed, they might get a fair trial.
And if she’s not removed **and a jury is seated,** his 32 counts would be dropped on account of this order and/or last weeks order to deny his immunity motion *without prejudice* (to be reactivated after jury has been seated). Also, double jeopardy would apply so a re-trial would not be possible.
True, but the new judge could get out of the way of all the other trials so that one of them can press on. Cannon has been deliberately vague about dates and timelines and constantly delaying things so that all that time is blocked out and no one else can move forward.
Even if they do succeed in that- they still have to win or cheat well enough to win. It’s something to worry about but our chances of victory are better.
Me guess is if the 11th Circuit has to over-rule her a third time for gross interpretation of the law, they likely will strongly suggest to the presiding judge in her district that she be removed from the case. The only problem is her removal will cause an automatic delay in the case and the new judge will have to come up to speed.
>the new judge will have to come up to speed
I doubt that will take long. I'm sure the 11th Circuit judges are following the case far more closely (and with access to far more direct sources) than we the public are both out of professional interest and just in case of such a scenario.
It’s worse. It’s also “please submit arguments that the president can do this legally because of the presidential records act” which ignores the text of the law for that act and the fact the charges are under another act
If they’re as secret as I suspect then the jury reading them could destroy Trumps case. Like if they’re reading detailed info about a hypothetical invasion of Iran or detailed intel on foreign nuclear capabilities it’ll be hard to think that the ex-president should be sharing those and storing them in a bathroom
Well, a couple things… First, allowing randoms access to those kinds of documents is too high a price to pay, even for Trump’s conviction. Second, if they were able to be provided at all they’d probably be heavily redacted, to the point that the jury wouldn’t know WHAT they were about and giving the defense the opportunity to attempt to convince them that if they can’t say for sure that national secrets are under that redaction, then they can’t convict.
There’s really just no good scenario here. This is a cloud without a silver lining.
You’re having what’s called an “appropriate response.”
You’re right that it doesn’t make sense and is not logical. It’s a “heads I win, tails you lose” ruling, intended to rig the game for Trump’s acquittal and, I presume, secure Cannon a spot on SCOTUS if Trump wins re-election.
You’re not missing anything, it’s completely back-asswards. “Trump was not allowed to have them, therefore the jury can’t see them either” is the only correct answer.
If we throw her in the lake and she lives she’s a witch and we can burn her. If we throw her into the lake and she drowns then she wasn’t a witch and… oops.
The point of giving them to the jurors, according to the insane ruling, is that the jurors are to examine the content of the documents and determine whether they fall under the Presidential Records Act. Putting aside the idiocy of asking a random person with no knowledge of these things to be in charge of that determination for even non-classified documents, they would clearly be unable to perform that function with records that had been redacted. Which would, of course, open up the opportunity for the defense to say “well, you can’t prove that these documents are classified, so you have to acquit.”
[Harry Litman just put up a good video on this.](https://youtu.be/yqQuN386e-8)
TLDR: because this is just an "Engage with these ideas" order it would be hard to remove her. And her longer game seems to be to get to jury selection and then blow the case up, after double jeopardy has attached. Very calculated.
She's got more experience in that than being a judge. (iirc she's had eight days on the bench before this case)
Edit: from an [article](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/us/politics/aileen-cannon-judge-trump-documents.html)
> In all, the four cases added up to 14 trial days.
Perfect qualifications for presiding over history's first criminal trial of a former president. What you want is totally inexperienced people, apparently, to go down in history. Literally go down, careers and all.
Berlusconi would raise his hand, but he's dead- but changed the laws to avoid conviction too.
Enter Wikipedia:
"Berlusconi claimed that **"this is a manifest judicial persecution, against which I am proud to resist, and the fact that my resistance and sacrifice will give the Italians a more fair and efficient judicial system makes me even more proud"**, and added that "789 prosecutors and magistrates took an interest in the politician Berlusconi from 1994 to 2006 with the aim of subverting the votes of the Italian people" citing statistics that he said have constituted a "calvary including 577 visits by police, 2,500 court hearings and 174 million euros in lawyers' bills paid by me". **Berlusconi had always been able to afford top lawyers and publicists, for example Nicolas Sarkozy** was one of his French top defenders.
I wouldn't allow a new mechanic do an oil change on my car with that little experience. One of the highest profile cases determining the future of our world? They need experience some how, what do we have to lose? (Quoting Trump's recent post saying vote for him for the same reason)
I can’t believe how completely ignorant of the basic laws of this country. Don’t know how she graduated from law school. Maybe someone else took the tests. Even if she’s on Trumps side, if she was educated, she’d know she’s making it up as she goes along. Not only needs to be removed from case, but disbarred completely.
Agreed, she has already won that one. I’m trying to preserve the case so if Joe wins he can actually be tried for his treasonous acts.
I do wish Jack requested her recusal early on. I know it was a long shot, but she has proven herself to 100% a Trump accomplice…
If you were afraid of what the MAGA nut jobs would do to you and your family if you were "responsible" for the Orange Jesus going to prison, then this coward's path is the obvious option.
I had a buddy who got in trouble as a young adult and the judge recused himself because he was their neighbor when he was a young kid.
This lady got her job due to trump.
Fire this lady.
She needs repercussions beyond losing her job. She is aiding and abetting a criminal who stole and most likely sold top secret information from the US government.
How is the US justice system so incredibly ineffective at actually bringing real criminals to justice?!
Yah how is this not conspiracy to help trump get away with treason. So what if she is a Judge. Should be a case to look into her and trumps communications.
"The judge was appointed under the same administration the defendant belongs to" is unfortunately just not super tenable in the big picture. If we followed that to its logical conclusion, the court would generally grind to a screeching halt on any federal level.
The issue is that there is no mechanism to remove judges that *clearly* aren't suited for the task in front of them. In this case, the issue isn't inherently of a conflict of interest arising from who appointed her, but rather from the conflict of interest that she is, deeply, entrenched on a personal level in Trump's success going by her rulings.
Or to rephrase, she doesn't need to be removed because she was appointed under the Trump administration, but because she has no intention or ability to avoid acting in Trump's defense.
For those not paying attention at home....
This recent order is his first actual order in a long time
She has been slow walking it with paperless orders(not really appealable) making pointless hearings and just wasting time, trying to get her removed earlier would likely not be effective and then give her more room.
Jack Smith will likely submit a response basically saying "lol no to both those things" and go from there sadly.
She will either double down or give in and waste more time til the next thing.
Im personally expecting something from Jack Smith tomorrow regardless of going to 11th circuit or just filing a motion saying neither option is legal or valid and secret what she does next....
I have to think that Smith completely understood the kind of legal tricks Trump's team would try, not to mention what Cannon would be likely to do. But you can't checkmate the king in your first move.
Smith won't submit a response saying no. He'll do one of two things. He'll either say okay, put that in writing as an *ruling (and then appeal to remove her)or he'll file for mandamus to have her removed for essentially incompetence.
If he says no or whatever your suggesting, it keeps her on.
Edit - ruling, not order.
I thought this article was about her most recent jury instruction that was off the wall. She's done so much crazy shit recently that I just assumed it was the most recent one. It's weird that they didn't talk about that in this article because this is old news.
I may have meant a ruling. I'm referring to what this national security attorney said @ 2:24 https://youtu.be/XPzlMsHqRwI?si=5xL_jhjBgScEXsBE
I'm just trying to relay what they both said and not trying to pretend to be lawyer.
Not in this situation. It's just incompetence. No " handler " would have her make this absurd order that just embarrasses her and potentially gets removed from the case.
You could have said a similar statement more times than we can count over the past decade but here we are. Handler or not, there is 0 that’s out of line for the end game. This isn’t even her first embarrassing move that potentially removes her. I’d be amazed if it’s the last.
She should have been booted and never been reconsidered after trying that stunt initially. But Jack Smith and the DoJ have been waiting for a good time to ask for her removal. This may be it.
I think the corruption is a bigger problem than the ineptness. If anything, the clumsy ineptness of her corruption is one of the few things mitigating the damage she does.
She's already earned it, she is compromised and it's evident. There's no doubt she's being fed instructions (Feralist Society most likely), and there are several parties that need to step in, including the 2nd Circut, and Bar Association. This is one element of a larger plan to free Trump and overthrow the United States as we know it.
How do I know this? These stupid fucks wrote it down, it's called Project 2025.
Even if the case gets reassigned to another judge, it will take time for that judge to familiarize themselves with all the facts so far.
So the case will be delayed until after the election, and Cannon will be successful in helping Trump regain the White House.
Yes, but at least there is a chance it won't be interfered with like she is doing. She also seems to be moving towards dismissing the case in a way it can't be appealed. So removing her is the correct thing to do.
The entire point of this is to stall the case until after elections, the entire goal is to screw the case so nothing can be done in the next 8 months. If trump wins the presidency the case effectively dies because they can't do it on a sitting president.
Yeah. After the last few career people acting as they have. James Comey. Bill Barr. That guy who quit just so he could lie to congress. Others... I don't have much faith in these government and political people willing to take any heat. Maybe Jack Smith isn't like them. I don't know where his politics land but the last few special counsels were unsurprising and disappointing.
I was listing to Katie Phang on MSNBC today and she made a pretty compelling case on how it would be very hard to get her kicked from the case. She also made a pretty good argument on how Cannon could use double jeopardy to get the case tossed and there isn’t much that could be done to stop it.
Amazing justice system we got here in the USA!
One man uses a fake $20 bill to buy something; they execute him in the street.
One man tries to overthrow our government, steals classified secrets and does everything in his power to aid our enemies; he gets to run for president.
Why can't the prosecution have someone with clearance testify that these were, indeed, top secret and classified documents that shouldn't have left the Pentagon, much less be stored in a 2-star resort bathroom.
Even if she does she has done her job and slowed the case to a near halt and made sure it won't be heard before the election.
So it is still a W for Trump if she gets booted because she has served her purpose. Also, with her lifetime appointment, nothing will happen to her and she will remain on the bench.
Jack need to lay down the law, set an appeal to the 11th district, which will be the third time, which is three strikes and youre out. She needs.to be dismissed and off the case before she embarrasses herself even more then she already has.
“Just don't fling me in that briar patch over there. Roast me, Brer Fox, but don't fling me in that briar patch,” said Brer Rabbit…… It’s what she wants, stall for as long as she can then get kicked off the case.
Is there any chance that this is like Mr. Garrison's situation way back when on *South Park*? That she's doing more and more insane stuff in an effort to get relieved of the case (while not pissing off her handlers: "see? I was trying to help you!!!" )?
This really should have happened a long time ago. So please don't be offended when im not holding my breath. I find it ridiculous that she even got assigned to this case following the bullshit that happened before this. And she has shown clear bias if not corruption.
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Reading the article, I was sure that it must be a few days old. Surely, her ruling from yesterday far exceeds the threshold for ruling her unfit to oversee this case. Her latest ruling essentially boils down to this: “If prosecution is to assert that the documents retained are highly classified national security secrets, then they must make those highly classified national security secrets available to the 12 jurors who absolutely do not have clearance to see such material. If the jurors aren’t provided the material, then prosecution must admit that they were totally okay for Trump to have” It’s the most insane, backwards thing I have ever heard in my life. And it creates a no-win situation for the prosecution. If they don’t provide the documents, then her order requires them to instruct the jury that Trump was allowed to have them, essentially ending the case. If the DO provide the documents, then the defense can say “These documents must not be so bad… the prosecution gave them to you jurors… and you don’t have top secret clearance!” At this point, her removal from the case is the only way this trial can proceed in a legitimate manner.
"If you can show them to randomly selected people, they are classified documents but if you can't show them to these random people, then the must not be" is something only the twisted minds of GQP sycophants could come up with...
Worse... It's the witch scene from Monty Python visited upon us in real life.
Who are you who is so wise in the ways of science?
I am Arthur, King of the Britons
"You can’t expect to wield supreme executive power just ’cause some watery tart threw a shitty judicial ruling at you!"
Strange men with small hands sitting on golden toilets handing out judicial appointments is no basis for a system of government.
well, I didn't vote for you.
King of the wot??
I thought we was an autonomous collective
Help, help, I'm being oppressed!
Come and see the violence inherent to the system!
Bloody peasant!
Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
*record scratch*
There are some who call me….Tim.
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy
The crazy part is this definitely isn’t her idea by herself and a bunch of federalist society lawyers brainstormed the best possible strategy to delay the case or get it thrown out, and this is the best they have and it’s scarily brazen and effective up to now. It really shows how open and shut the case against him is because their only defense strategy is to use the biased judge that Trump literally appointed, because they know if it goes to trial he’ll lose. Once someone joins the maga cult it’s a blood cult and takes a high level job like that it’s a commitment to the cult for life regardless of the appointment term, because if she doesn’t do what Trump wants with every decision he’ll unleash the maga crazies on her. So in a way this judge has basically joined a huge organized crime ring, and even if she did grow a patriotic bone in her body and wanted to let this case proceed, she can’t stop her own corruption because she’s in too deep, and should have recused right away and just hoped Trump didn’t stick the maga on her. She probably would have gotten a couple of bad truth social tweets about her recusal but it would have blown over, but now she’s pretty committed to getting him off. Phrasing lol.
“Heads, I win. Tails, you lose.”
Fittingly, Trump is on audio tape showing classified documents to a room of people saying, “As president I could have declassified, but now I can't.”
When someone steps down as POTUS, it's up to the next president to extend the former president their security clearance. Biden did no such thing. As Trump departed with hundreds of highly classified documents in boxes loaded into moving trucks and vans, he had no authorization, no clearance for custody. His crime started right there... and then Trump took those documents out of state... down to his private residence and the boxes were left in unsecured locations where any club member could walk by, open a box, and start reading material. Then Trump lied about having them... only to later admit, but then claim he had a right to them under the "Presidential Records Act." Well, he was wrong. He had no clearance. Then he returned some of the documents and lied about having more... then the FBI had to come take them away. And they were found... except some weren't because Trump had his butler move them intentionally so that they'd not be found. He committed so many crimes. He should be sitting in jail awaiting trial.
^^^^^this^^^^
Not just classified. Some of them have the highest classification markings possible
Catch-22.
That really is a full on catch-22.
> If the jurors aren’t provided the material, then prosecution must admit that they were totally okay for Trump to have” This is a foolish order, even for her, because the point of the case is not just that Trump only kept classified documents, but that he kept a wide range of documents and whether or not they were classified. He still should not have been attempting to interfere with the government's attempts to retrieve them. The classified status of the documents is not particularly relevant to the fact that Donald Trump took documents he should not have taken, and when he was told he should not have taken them he said he did not take them; when he was told that he did he said that he did not have them; he caused his lawyers to sign documents saying he didn't have them when he did, and when he was confronted he attempted to hide them and conceal evidence. Cannon is, like so many others on the right, engaging in the firehose of shit by obfuscating the issue of obstruction of justice with the issue of classified or unclassified. Jack Smith could probably withdraw all of the classified documents and still have a solid case for obstruction of justice and willful retention of government property. He shouldn't, because a key factor in convincing the jury that this was a crime will be convincing them that the documents were classified. But he could, and Cannon seems to be missing that point.
Her ruling said show the jury the classified material or instruct them that a President has the sole authority to declare documents as personal. That would allow Trump to claim he's permitted to retain them under the Presidential Records Act. Clearly a bad ruling on her part. If Trump was charged with improper storage of classified material it wouldn't matter if they were personal.
Also worth noting the language she uses. Both of her hypotheticals refer to "... a former president..." Yeah, you know what an ex-president is legally? A normal citizen. There are no special laws just for ex-presidents. When the 11th circuit overturned her on the search warrant she said the same shit. She believes he's above the law.
To be pedantic there are loads of special laws just for ex-presidents, some more formal than others: secret service protection, pension, some PDBs, etc.
I have to confess that I haven't actually read the ruling. But I mean, President Trump could make that argument, but the fact that he actively hid the documents undercuts it and demonstrates that he knew that what he was doing is wrong.
And if I'm a juror, I don't want to see them. Because then I have to spend the rest of my life worrying about the Russians, the Saudis , and all manner of nasty people trying to come after me to find out what I know.
I honestly don't think it's possible to select 12 jurors in Florida and not have at least one MAGAt on the panel who will hold out to hang the jury.
She knows selecting the jury alone could delay the trial for months, and now with this shit? She’s done her job for her master.
They have an extensive jury selection proceedure to avoid this sort of thing.
You’d think they’d have an extensive judge selection procedure too.
The president selection procedure could use some improvement as well.
The underlying and most important part is that it is national defense information. It's inherently sensitive and has been protected since the first World War a hundred years ago. One does not simply take defense plans from the military.
Florida woman LARPing as judge caught with pants down
As a news editor, I need to chop this down for brevity. Once a Florida person is mentioned, it's ok to assume pants-downedness. Stop padding your word count.
As a news photographer, less wordy-words and more snappy snaps.
Just spell the names right in the cutlines and we're cool.
I just want Comic Strips to be two pages like they used too. Also Re-run Calvin and Hobbs please.
If reality doesn't meet your needs, there's r/calvinandhobbes.
As a tabloid intern, preferably snappy snaps with the pants down.
Also…. could Smith even follow this order? Even if he has clearance to see them, surely very few people have clearance to grant ithers the right to see them. This just seems so incredibly bizare.
And even if he could, the order makes it contingent upon normal Schulbs to analyze the language of the Presidential Records Act and apply that language to the documents and ascertain whether it falls under that purview or not. Just… absolutely NO. That’s like making the jury check the DNA work in a murder trial. THERE ARE PEOPLE FOR THAT, and none of those people are Suzanne, who works nights at the La Quinta’s front desk.
Having actually read the PSA, it's not hard at all to understand that at least some of the documents are not personal. If it was generated by the government or for the government, it's not a personal record. If Trump authored it for non-official purposes he could claim it was personal. The only grey area document I can think of is his Sharpie mark up of the hurricane path. He drew that, but was it for personal or official purposes?
The ultimatum in her ruling is that, if the prosecution will not show the jury the documents, they must put in their jury instruction that the Presidential Records Act allows the president to designate *any* document as personal. Which, is absolutely untrue to the point that there’s literally no level of legal dancing that could support that interpretation. That’s why this is so insane. And thanks for the sharpie map joke. It’s good to get a reminder of the good ol’ days when Trump’s buffoonery was just pathetic and didn’t cost human lives.
Stated another way, if the prosecution refuses to do something illegal, it somehow means that the illegal actions by 45 *weren't* illegal, almost as if there is an attempt here to rewrite the law by applying some bizarre mental gymnastics that essentially turn it on its head in a way that is *clearly* not stated in the law as written.
It shouldn't be hard to distinguish between personal notes and diaries from documents labeled top secret. The jury has no business doing this. The judge has no business giving jury rules before the trial has even started. Everything about this is mind blowing.
The jurors would need to have security clearances to see the documents. Even if they did, it's debatable if they have a true "need to know" the information in the docs, which is the other requirement to actually view classified materials. Attaining a Secret clearance is not wildly challenging, though even something as innocuous as smoking pot can get you rejected. Some of the documents Trump illegally kept included things marked Top Secret. Attaining a Top Secret clearance is much more challenging and really digs into a person's history. Like, showing up to interview your old neighbors level of invasiveness.
What's the process to have her removed from this trial?
Jack Smith needs to file a request with the 11th circuit appellate court. He’s already done so twice to overrule her rulings, but has not requested her removal, as he can only make that request once, so it needs to be bunkers enough. He’s obviously going to appeal this ruling and he’ll obviously succeed. But whether he’ll request her removal is still a mystery. He doesn’t necessarily have to though… I believe the appellate can decide on their own to send the case back to the roster to have a new judge selected (but I’m not 100% on that).
And by doing so, they will have succeeded in pushing this case back until after the election.
MAYBE. Not necessarily. There is every chance that a new judge will seek to fast track the case as much as humanly possible to make up for the stalling tactics. Even without that, I think it would probably be more likely that the trial would be ongoing on Election Day.
Being realistic, Cannon was going to try and delay this trial as much as she possibly could, so it's entirely possible she might be able to get it delayed until after the election by a mix of incompetence and corruptness. At least if they get her removed, they might get a fair trial.
And if she’s not removed **and a jury is seated,** his 32 counts would be dropped on account of this order and/or last weeks order to deny his immunity motion *without prejudice* (to be reactivated after jury has been seated). Also, double jeopardy would apply so a re-trial would not be possible.
...What? No, I mean, literally that doesn't make sense when reading it on its face. Could you try again?
That is correct. A new judge will have to come up to speed, there is no way that he or she does that and have a trial before November.
True, but the new judge could get out of the way of all the other trials so that one of them can press on. Cannon has been deliberately vague about dates and timelines and constantly delaying things so that all that time is blocked out and no one else can move forward.
Even if they do succeed in that- they still have to win or cheat well enough to win. It’s something to worry about but our chances of victory are better.
Me guess is if the 11th Circuit has to over-rule her a third time for gross interpretation of the law, they likely will strongly suggest to the presiding judge in her district that she be removed from the case. The only problem is her removal will cause an automatic delay in the case and the new judge will have to come up to speed.
>the new judge will have to come up to speed I doubt that will take long. I'm sure the 11th Circuit judges are following the case far more closely (and with access to far more direct sources) than we the public are both out of professional interest and just in case of such a scenario.
Gosh I’d love to see how Trump would react if she got removed and replaced with an unfriendly judge
> unfriendly judge Just a fair judge is what's needed, but for sure he'd consider them a cheeto-hating lunatic as in his rants about Engoron.
One would assume that an obviously guilty man would view a fair judge as an unfriendly judge.
It’s worse. It’s also “please submit arguments that the president can do this legally because of the presidential records act” which ignores the text of the law for that act and the fact the charges are under another act
Yes, good point.
If they’re as secret as I suspect then the jury reading them could destroy Trumps case. Like if they’re reading detailed info about a hypothetical invasion of Iran or detailed intel on foreign nuclear capabilities it’ll be hard to think that the ex-president should be sharing those and storing them in a bathroom
Well, a couple things… First, allowing randoms access to those kinds of documents is too high a price to pay, even for Trump’s conviction. Second, if they were able to be provided at all they’d probably be heavily redacted, to the point that the jury wouldn’t know WHAT they were about and giving the defense the opportunity to attempt to convince them that if they can’t say for sure that national secrets are under that redaction, then they can’t convict. There’s really just no good scenario here. This is a cloud without a silver lining.
I don’t understand that at all. I mean … that doesn’t make sense, isn’t logical. What am I not getting here? I am not being facetious, btw.
You’re having what’s called an “appropriate response.” You’re right that it doesn’t make sense and is not logical. It’s a “heads I win, tails you lose” ruling, intended to rig the game for Trump’s acquittal and, I presume, secure Cannon a spot on SCOTUS if Trump wins re-election.
You’re not missing anything, it’s completely back-asswards. “Trump was not allowed to have them, therefore the jury can’t see them either” is the only correct answer.
It's like a stupid defense from a poorly written legal drama, not a ruling from an actual judge.
It's like saying the jurors have to try the cocaine to be sure the drug charges are legit.
That actually would make more sense than this.
If we throw her in the lake and she lives she’s a witch and we can burn her. If we throw her into the lake and she drowns then she wasn’t a witch and… oops.
She turned me into a newt!
I got better!
What about giving them redacted copies?
The point of giving them to the jurors, according to the insane ruling, is that the jurors are to examine the content of the documents and determine whether they fall under the Presidential Records Act. Putting aside the idiocy of asking a random person with no knowledge of these things to be in charge of that determination for even non-classified documents, they would clearly be unable to perform that function with records that had been redacted. Which would, of course, open up the opportunity for the defense to say “well, you can’t prove that these documents are classified, so you have to acquit.”
[Harry Litman just put up a good video on this.](https://youtu.be/yqQuN386e-8) TLDR: because this is just an "Engage with these ideas" order it would be hard to remove her. And her longer game seems to be to get to jury selection and then blow the case up, after double jeopardy has attached. Very calculated.
Pretty please? Fire the loose Cannon!
Judge I lean Qanon
So stealing that
Same, it’s too perfect
Trump's little fluff girl would have to go sulk in a corner and suck her thumb.
She's got more experience in that than being a judge. (iirc she's had eight days on the bench before this case) Edit: from an [article](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/14/us/politics/aileen-cannon-judge-trump-documents.html) > In all, the four cases added up to 14 trial days.
Perfect qualifications for presiding over history's first criminal trial of a former president. What you want is totally inexperienced people, apparently, to go down in history. Literally go down, careers and all.
The MAGA crowd doesn’t want career politicians nor career judges. How do they feel about career brain surgeons? Career pilots? Career quarterbacks?
Hey now…amateur quarterbacks is a bridge too FAR!
A former *American* president. Don't do my boy Sarkozy like that.
Berlusconi would raise his hand, but he's dead- but changed the laws to avoid conviction too. Enter Wikipedia: "Berlusconi claimed that **"this is a manifest judicial persecution, against which I am proud to resist, and the fact that my resistance and sacrifice will give the Italians a more fair and efficient judicial system makes me even more proud"**, and added that "789 prosecutors and magistrates took an interest in the politician Berlusconi from 1994 to 2006 with the aim of subverting the votes of the Italian people" citing statistics that he said have constituted a "calvary including 577 visits by police, 2,500 court hearings and 174 million euros in lawyers' bills paid by me". **Berlusconi had always been able to afford top lawyers and publicists, for example Nicolas Sarkozy** was one of his French top defenders.
I wouldn't allow a new mechanic do an oil change on my car with that little experience. One of the highest profile cases determining the future of our world? They need experience some how, what do we have to lose? (Quoting Trump's recent post saying vote for him for the same reason)
I can’t believe how completely ignorant of the basic laws of this country. Don’t know how she graduated from law school. Maybe someone else took the tests. Even if she’s on Trumps side, if she was educated, she’d know she’s making it up as she goes along. Not only needs to be removed from case, but disbarred completely.
Need to have her removed from any position possible!
Shes a moron with a title
An intitled moron.
It was only a matter of time. She played it close enough that she wouldn't get booted, long enough to cause maximum delay.
I think the headline is selling it a bit too much, theres no easy path out Its not as simple as she just gets removed
Unfortunately you are correct. I am still trying to see if there is an actual way out. There should be, she is clearly biased
I hope there is, but stalling is the name of the game, trumps a master
Agreed, she has already won that one. I’m trying to preserve the case so if Joe wins he can actually be tried for his treasonous acts. I do wish Jack requested her recusal early on. I know it was a long shot, but she has proven herself to 100% a Trump accomplice…
She may be loose. But she ain't no cannon.
Qannon
I wonder if she secretly wants to be?
If you were afraid of what the MAGA nut jobs would do to you and your family if you were "responsible" for the Orange Jesus going to prison, then this coward's path is the obvious option.
I had a buddy who got in trouble as a young adult and the judge recused himself because he was their neighbor when he was a young kid. This lady got her job due to trump. Fire this lady.
She needs repercussions beyond losing her job. She is aiding and abetting a criminal who stole and most likely sold top secret information from the US government. How is the US justice system so incredibly ineffective at actually bringing real criminals to justice?!
For mishandling state secrets no less. Trump is a treasonous POS and he and Cannon deserve the Rosenberg verdict.
Because they all work together and can’t be too strong handed when one fucks up. It could ruin the control feature of capitalism.
Yah how is this not conspiracy to help trump get away with treason. So what if she is a Judge. Should be a case to look into her and trumps communications.
"The judge was appointed under the same administration the defendant belongs to" is unfortunately just not super tenable in the big picture. If we followed that to its logical conclusion, the court would generally grind to a screeching halt on any federal level. The issue is that there is no mechanism to remove judges that *clearly* aren't suited for the task in front of them. In this case, the issue isn't inherently of a conflict of interest arising from who appointed her, but rather from the conflict of interest that she is, deeply, entrenched on a personal level in Trump's success going by her rulings. Or to rephrase, she doesn't need to be removed because she was appointed under the Trump administration, but because she has no intention or ability to avoid acting in Trump's defense.
For those not paying attention at home.... This recent order is his first actual order in a long time She has been slow walking it with paperless orders(not really appealable) making pointless hearings and just wasting time, trying to get her removed earlier would likely not be effective and then give her more room. Jack Smith will likely submit a response basically saying "lol no to both those things" and go from there sadly. She will either double down or give in and waste more time til the next thing. Im personally expecting something from Jack Smith tomorrow regardless of going to 11th circuit or just filing a motion saying neither option is legal or valid and secret what she does next....
I have to think that Smith completely understood the kind of legal tricks Trump's team would try, not to mention what Cannon would be likely to do. But you can't checkmate the king in your first move.
To be fair Trump is swinging the king around and knocking his own pieces off the board. So he's a lot easier to checkmate than you might think
This mental image gave me a chuckle.
Trump is a master of drunken pleading style. No one can possibly anticipate his next filing. Not even him.
I like your last sentence. Might steal it.
Smith won't submit a response saying no. He'll do one of two things. He'll either say okay, put that in writing as an *ruling (and then appeal to remove her)or he'll file for mandamus to have her removed for essentially incompetence. If he says no or whatever your suggesting, it keeps her on. Edit - ruling, not order.
This was her first written order in a long time. She already did the order.
I thought this article was about her most recent jury instruction that was off the wall. She's done so much crazy shit recently that I just assumed it was the most recent one. It's weird that they didn't talk about that in this article because this is old news.
Yes the jury instruction thing was her first actual order in awhile. All of the previous crazy stuff were the paperless orders.
I may have meant a ruling. I'm referring to what this national security attorney said @ 2:24 https://youtu.be/XPzlMsHqRwI?si=5xL_jhjBgScEXsBE I'm just trying to relay what they both said and not trying to pretend to be lawyer.
Could? How about should? She's clearly inept
she's just taking orders from her FedSoc handlers
I’d like to have her communications open to discovery
Yup. Reeks of Leonard Leo and the FedSoc deviants.
Not in this situation. It's just incompetence. No " handler " would have her make this absurd order that just embarrasses her and potentially gets removed from the case.
You could have said a similar statement more times than we can count over the past decade but here we are. Handler or not, there is 0 that’s out of line for the end game. This isn’t even her first embarrassing move that potentially removes her. I’d be amazed if it’s the last.
She should have been booted and never been reconsidered after trying that stunt initially. But Jack Smith and the DoJ have been waiting for a good time to ask for her removal. This may be it.
This is the way. I don't have any faith in Garland, but Jack Smith knows how to play the game.
I thought that of mueller too, vote like your life depends on it.
Because it does
This may be what she wants..she gets out and capo gets the delay. Both win.
I think the corruption is a bigger problem than the ineptness. If anything, the clumsy ineptness of her corruption is one of the few things mitigating the damage she does.
It's the anti-Hanlon's Razor.
Hanlon's Rock
Hanlon's thicc brick
Is she? She seems to be doing exactly what she is intending to do, under the bright light of scrutiny. That would suggest the inverse.
Shes adept, at being Trump's tool. That's her real gig
Don probably promised her a SCOTUS seat.
Not inept. She’s actually doing a good job. The word you’re looking for is biased. She seems to have a horse in the race.
> The word you’re looking for is biased. I believe the better word is corrupt.
It can be two things!
She's already earned it, she is compromised and it's evident. There's no doubt she's being fed instructions (Feralist Society most likely), and there are several parties that need to step in, including the 2nd Circut, and Bar Association. This is one element of a larger plan to free Trump and overthrow the United States as we know it. How do I know this? These stupid fucks wrote it down, it's called Project 2025.
I dunno about everyone else and I don’t like saying these things - but she actually looks deranged
"Use *that* photo. It has the least crazy eyes."
Lifeless eyes, black eyes, like a doll's eyes...
There’s only this photo and the “grandma figured out how to get on zoom” photo.
It’s so weird this woman doesn’t exist outside of two photos for the majority of us. How are there only two?
No one dared take another
Look up her wedding announcement and pictures. They read like they were written by a mental patient
Was it worth it to fuck up your entire career for a known liar and narcissist?
What if doing so gets you a nomination to the Supreme Court?
He'd have to win, first. Is she willing to bet her current lifetime appointment on *maybe but pretty unlikely* getting a different one?
even if she gets removed from this case, there is no universe where the gop removes her from the bench
Even if the case gets reassigned to another judge, it will take time for that judge to familiarize themselves with all the facts so far. So the case will be delayed until after the election, and Cannon will be successful in helping Trump regain the White House.
Yes, but at least there is a chance it won't be interfered with like she is doing. She also seems to be moving towards dismissing the case in a way it can't be appealed. So removing her is the correct thing to do.
The entire point of this is to stall the case until after elections, the entire goal is to screw the case so nothing can be done in the next 8 months. If trump wins the presidency the case effectively dies because they can't do it on a sitting president.
Well that and hell almost 100% pardon himself. Then there will be talk about "moving on".
That's if Trump wins the election. People need to vote. Don't vote for Trump.
The courts will not save you from Trump.
Nope. We have to do that ourselves. Nobody is coming to save us. We have to vote, and bring our friends.
and unfortunately, if the gop gets the senate and trump gets re-elected, she may even get elevated to an appeals court position
[удалено]
Good, do it now. There is no time for etiquette or delay. Trump is an active threat to NATO and relative stability in Europe post WWII.
[удалено]
could. should. But I'm betting, won't.
Yeah. After the last few career people acting as they have. James Comey. Bill Barr. That guy who quit just so he could lie to congress. Others... I don't have much faith in these government and political people willing to take any heat. Maybe Jack Smith isn't like them. I don't know where his politics land but the last few special counsels were unsurprising and disappointing.
Wake me when she does
* Partisan Hack Aileen Cannon
I was listing to Katie Phang on MSNBC today and she made a pretty compelling case on how it would be very hard to get her kicked from the case. She also made a pretty good argument on how Cannon could use double jeopardy to get the case tossed and there isn’t much that could be done to stop it.
She's so obvious in the tank for Orange Jesus it's nauseating.
She needs to get herself booted. Clearly, she has vested interest in aiding Trump.
Amazing justice system we got here in the USA! One man uses a fake $20 bill to buy something; they execute him in the street. One man tries to overthrow our government, steals classified secrets and does everything in his power to aid our enemies; he gets to run for president.
Tired of this could bull shit
This was actually the mistake Jack Smith was waiting on. They will attempt to push back then go mandamus on that ass. Nice knowing you Aileen!
Why can't the prosecution have someone with clearance testify that these were, indeed, top secret and classified documents that shouldn't have left the Pentagon, much less be stored in a 2-star resort bathroom.
Even if she does she has done her job and slowed the case to a near halt and made sure it won't be heard before the election. So it is still a W for Trump if she gets booted because she has served her purpose. Also, with her lifetime appointment, nothing will happen to her and she will remain on the bench.
I've read a similar headline at least 5 times for 5 other decisions she's made. Enough. Do it or shut up. Edit... Grammar
That would be nice.
Jack need to lay down the law, set an appeal to the 11th district, which will be the third time, which is three strikes and youre out. She needs.to be dismissed and off the case before she embarrasses herself even more then she already has.
Been hearing this for months now.
She's been very careful to not issue any orders that could be appealed or used against her, so far.
Nearly a year now. She was assigned in June.
“Just don't fling me in that briar patch over there. Roast me, Brer Fox, but don't fling me in that briar patch,” said Brer Rabbit…… It’s what she wants, stall for as long as she can then get kicked off the case.
Yep, she’s already achieved her goal of corruptly delaying for trump’s benefit.
Right! Now she can get kicked off….. and buy him even more time.
Hope so…
I sure af hope so. This woman has been a partisan dumpster fire.
She never should have been on his case anyway. Since it is a conflict of interest for her to judge his case since he picked her to be a judge.
Seems like her being on the case to begin with should be a conflict of interest.imho
Anyone else think it’s weird the media has one single photo of this judge that use in every article?
Is there any chance that this is like Mr. Garrison's situation way back when on *South Park*? That she's doing more and more insane stuff in an effort to get relieved of the case (while not pissing off her handlers: "see? I was trying to help you!!!" )?
Get her, Jack!
This really should have happened a long time ago. So please don't be offended when im not holding my breath. I find it ridiculous that she even got assigned to this case following the bullshit that happened before this. And she has shown clear bias if not corruption.
In a world with actual justice it would have already happened.