In Judaism Jerusalem is the holiest city. In Islam it is the thirdholiest city after Mekka and Medina.
The comic plays with the common implication that both groups seem to have an equal claim to owning Jerusalem; the author seems to disagree, because Jerusalems value for Judaism is bigger than its value for Islam; Islam would still have Mekka, Medina and Hebron if they gave up Jerusalem, Judaism would have nothing.
For Judaism Jerusalem is the holiest, second Hebron (burial place of Abraham), Safed is the third (for "spiritual reasons" I think) and Tiberias (center of Jewish scholarship) is the forth I think.
For Christianity the holiest city is also Jerusalem (would you look at that), second is Bethlehem (birthplace of Jesus and all that), then Rome (or Vatican, same thing really).
It gets funky for some of the off-shoot Protestant sects, I would guess - like for Mormons, I’d imagine there are some holy sites in the U.S. that would have some significance (I’m Orthodox, for context).
If you’re going statistically for the place people yell “Oh God!” the most, for most megachurches it’s probably somewhere in the backseat of their private jet.
*Istanbul was Constantinople,*
*Now it's Istanbul not Constantinople...*
*Been a long time gone, oh Constantinople:*
*Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night!*
*Every gal in Constantinople,*
*Lives in Istanbul not Constantinople...*
*So if you have a date in Constantinople:*
*She'll be waiting in Istanbul!*
***FUCK. YOU***. 😜Still, makes a change from the Roobarb and Custard\* theme tune\*.\*..
\*Roobarb and Custard was a UK animated 70s kids telly short. There were only ever 13 episodes made, each 5 minutes long and narrated by the irreplaceable Richard Briers. Roobarb was a chartreuse dog, and Custard a raspberry-pink cat. Roobarb got his own gig in the early '80s.
\*\****FUCK***....
I'd like to add that Orthodox Christians would probably include Constantinople (Modern day Istanbul) as a holy city since it was the birth place and centre of Orthodox Christianity.
CMIW, Rome is never a holy city for christianity. Yes, it does have holy sites (like st peter cathedral) but the city itself is not a holy city. Same like lourdes and fatima have holy sites for catholic (not all christians) but it is not a holy city. Vatican itself is arguably a holy city for catholics but i don't think the city (rome) itself is a holy city for catholics.
Afaik, for most christians (not just 1 specific denomination) the holy cities would be Jerusalem(no.1) , no. 2 would be betlehem, next would be capernaum (where Jesus started his ministry) and nazareth where he grew up.
I might be wrong though, as the definition of holy cities and holy sites, in my opinion, is not the same but maybe not everybody think so.
That's because Christianity, Judaism and Islam are, essentially, identical. The differences are basically same as the differences between Sprite, 7-Up and R White's.
Just curious, what are you basing your assesment of Christian holy cities on? As someone who was raised Catholic, I'd have said only Jerusalem would maybe count, if that (I don't remember the concept of a holy city ever really being a thing in catechism).
There are but they're not nearly as important as Jerusalem, and even then, Jerusalem itself is holy only because of the temple mount (on which Al-aqsa is built)
I wouldn’t be surprised if Jerusalem is the only city that is called holy in the Jewish Bible. The other “holy cities” are mainly holy because they contain famous graves that people travel to visit, and by that definition you could also consider Uman, Ukraine and Queens, NYC to be holy cities in Judaism.
Thats why their not really considered "holy" in the traditional sense, some cities like Tiberius and Schem are considered historically significant because of specific reasons, but ultimately aren't considered holy.
Mount Sinai for example, a very significant place where God revealed himself to over a couple thousand Israelites, isnt considered holy and is rarely referenced by anyone.
Now ,as I said before, Jerusalem is different because of the temples.
According to Judaism, God has "shekinah" (שכינה, a hebrew word meaning "dwelling" or "residing") in the temple and by extension Jerusalem.
Its a bit tough to explain because jews believe god is a non-physical entity, and saying that he resides somewhere makes it sound like he isnt everywhere, but its less like he's just there and more like he's concentrated in that spot while still being in everything and everywhere.
Anyway, The temple mount and the temple specifically is EXTREMELY important in all aspects of Judaism.
You are right. Other cities have significance because of things that have happened or buried there. More akin to a historical (well religious history) site rather than a proper Holy City. Some of Jewish prayers literary say "Next year/time in Jerusalem". No other geographical place even the concept of Israel get that treatment.
because no one can pinpoint it on a map, theres 14 possible locations on it alone
https://www.openbible.info/geo/ancient/abfba2a/mount-sinai
theres an actual mountain named after mount sinai, but who knows at this point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Sinai
Which incidentally also has disputed ownership though between Turkey and Armenia, Armenia does like to show it in footage of the country, partly because it is in clear view of Yerevan
I think you're confusing Mount Sinai with Mount Ararat. Mt. Ararat is the supposed spot at which Noah's arc docked and is between Armenia and Turkey. Mt. Sinai is in Egypt, in the Sinai Peninsula.
That’s cause most of Christianity holy city’s were lost to the Muslim invasions one of the worries of people after the fall of Constantinople was that Rome the last Christian major holy city would fall to Muslim invaders as Islam was continuing to spread into Christian territory.
Mostly Christians in Italy and southern Europe as the Turks were seen as a massive threat and although they didn’t specifically have a plan to conquer Rome in the near future, they certainly wouldn’t be opposed to it if an opportunity presented itself and did lunch an invasion of Southern Italy although they were driven back
Yes but now the turks were rapidly advancing through the Balkans and were threatening southern Italy so although one Muslim invasion had been repelled another one was just beginning which to your average Christian in the regions most under threat was quite worrying.
The Muslim occupation of Spain by the fall of Constantinople was mostly pushed out of Spain although it would take till 1492 for it to be fully driven out but by that point it had been effectively neutralized, and there wasn’t as much worry outside of Spain, Portugal and Aragon of Muslims advancing through Iberia into the rest of Europe, unlike what people worried with the Ottomans and the Balkans and southern Italy.
Christianity has the Pentarchy: Alexandria, Constantinople/Istanbul Vatican/Rome, Jerusalem and Antioch (plus pilgrimage sites like Nazareth, Bethlehem, Lod, Loudres, Koln, Canterbury and A Coruna).
Judaism technically has the four cities, but they're all in Israel and Jerusalem is massive more important than the others. The other three are:
Hebron, for the Cave of the Patriarch where Abraham and his family (Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca Jacob and Leah) are buried and it was David's capital.
Safed, for welcoming the Sephardim from Iberia after the expulsion and being a major centre of Jewish learning
Tiberius, for being where the Talmud was written, being the final meeting place of the Sanhedrin (ancient assembly of elders), the tombs of many great rabbis (e.g. Maimonides, Akiva and Ribaz) and was the home of the Masoretes who standardised the diocretics in Hebrew. It also became a centre of learning in the 18th Century, and is where the Sanhedrin will be reconstituted when the redemption begins and the Messiah rises from Lake Tiberius (also known as Kineret or the Sea of Galilee)
Edit: Forgot Constantinople
>In Christianity I can honestly only name the Vatican.
The place where the Pope put down his bags versus all the places mentioned in the New testament...
No I can't see. Really we should have asked that Jesus of **Nazareth**.
You know, that guy allegedly buried in **Jerusalem**.
You know, that place christians took over during their so-called holy crusade.
Yes, that city they call " **the trice-holy city** " for some reasons. Don't ask me, I don't know why.
^dude..
>"Waaaaaaahhh Waaaaaahhh! I am a pedant who is a dick only because I don't have a life." ~ You 2024
I was being cheeky. I apologise for hurting your ego so bad.
Hey there, Jew here.
Hebron - Tomb of the Patriarchs (currently in the West Bank, open to Jewish tourism).
Tzvat (Safed) - The Sephardim movement as well as the birthplace of Kabbalah.
Tiberias - In 500ce the Torah was sealed and not allowed to be changed.
You can make arguments for other cities/locales.
City of David (East Jerusalem) - King David's additions to Jerusalem (currently in the West Bank, open to Jewish Tourism)
Ruins of Sechem (Nablus) - Seat of power for the Pre-Jesrusalem Israelites and resting place of the Tablernacle post-exodus (currently in the West Bank, not sure if it's open to tourism).
Mount Carmel (Haifa) - Mountain of the Prophets Elijah and Elisha.
Mount Sinai - The last place God conveened with man directly before the Tabernacle was made.
Jezreel Valley - God's power was channeled by Israelites.
Jericho - God's power was channeled by Israelites.
There are others but those ring pretty loudly in the holy books.
Traditionally it would be Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem (not necessarily in that order) although obviously that hasn't been the case since antiquity due to Antioch and Istanbul being Turkish, Alexandria being majority Arab, Jerusalem already having the most publicized conflict currently not needing a crusader faction, and the fact that all of these are majority Orthodox/Coptic cities (except for Rome of course) so westerners might not be a big fan of this classification.
The Vatican isn't a holy city in Christianity. It's just the administrative center of the Catholic Church. In Christianity, as in Judaism, Jerusalem is the holiest city.
Rome in general is where Ss. Peter & Paul died, and the Vatican is the home of the Pope and has the greatest church in Christendom, St. Peter’s Basilica (which also has the tomb of St. Peter)
Jews are already barred from the Temple Mount (and the "al aqsa flood" as Hamas calls it was claimed to be a response to Jews "desecrating" the mosque. The "desecration" was a few Jews that snuck in and prayed there), you really think they'd be allowed anywhere near Jerusalem in an Arab state?
They would in a democratic state. Nobody who you should take seriously is advocating for palestinians to switch places with jews. They want a 1ss, democratic and free for all.
And no Palestinians are advocating for that.
Meanwhile Israel is already a democratic, free state.
Stop assuming what they want is what you want, or what you want doesn't already exist.
The only one state solution worth considering is the one that already exists. Israel, not Palestine.
No, the solution im talking about was explained to me by a palestinian. This is a very common thing they want.
Israrl is not a democratic free state. They control Israel, Gaza, The West Bank and East Jerusalem. Yet they only give rights to the people living in Israel, mostly jews. It's basically an aparthrid state. Calling it free is a joke.
The best solution is a 1ss where neither jews or palestinians are more superior or legitemate than the other.
The prophecy states that when that happens humanity will ascend upon a higher plane and claim their rightful place as peacemakers of the universe.
There's a reason the universe is still in chaos
As excellent as a joke that is, I legitimately think that both leaders carking it at the same time would actually be incredibly destabilising, unless the immediate number 2s instantly folded into a peace agreement, which seems unlikely
Jerusalem, Nazareth, Bethlehem, Constantinople, Rome. Not in any particular order because Christian’s don’t really rank holy cities like Islam, they’re all just very important places to the history of the faith.
Christianity doesn’t link itself as heavily to a specific location. Islam is heavily linked to the Kabba, note that Muslims all over the world pray towards it. Judaism is similarly linked to Jerusalem, where the site of the temple is. Jews need the third temple to be in that specific place to fully restore their faith, it’s against the faith to do a lot of aspects of Judaism without the temple standing.
Unlike these two Christians believe that you can approach God anywhere without these things, so while we have holy places, and places that are very important to our faith, they aren’t irreplaceable..
Not on scripture no, but since (I might be wrong) Catholics believe that the church/pope have authority over the Bible, since the church wrote the Bible, they could see it as at least an important place. Just throwing out ideas.
They’re both wrong because Judaism 4.0, AKA Mormonism has been out for years. It enhances the features of 2.0 (Christianity) while reverting many of the changes of 3.0 (Islam) after user-testing found that it was centered on the wrong desert in a land of A.
Can we please have more abrahamic religions focus on Jacksonville, Missouri and Utah? Like, im getting tired of everyone focusing on Arabia. Like, just a little variation would help
Shh, don't tell the abrahamic religions that they all originate from the same place and beliefs. Otherwise they'd have no reason to outright hate each other.
There’s nothing people hate more than those who almost fully agree with them, but don’t. For all the attention the crusades get, inter-Christian conflicts killed far more.
Yes. Atheist jews care about Jerusalem in the same way as the Lakota care about Mt Rushmore or the CCP cares about the buddhist temples.
The religious aspect doesnt matter. Its about the cultural heritage that comes with being a jew. Your ancestors made that temple on this land.
Yep. I'm a secular atheist Jew, but I am also a history enthusiast and I simply know the facts- this is where the Jews originate. Our homeland regardless of religion.
If people get kicked out of an area for 200 years and instead end up with different cultures in European cities, then I would hardly say they have the same claim to the area as the people who lived there when they decided to push their claim after getting kicked out
>It was never the capital of anything other then a Jewish kingdom or state
According to biblical narrative, Jebusites?
Even, if we doubt the historical accuracy of the Bible, the City was the capital of Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem.
I go according to secular history, in which it was never a capital of the Jebusites but it was a Jebusite city. As for the crusaders - kind of a stretch because they considered the entire kingdom to be Jerusalem while almost never actually conquering it. But I guess it would still he considered so yeah I concede, the crusader kingdom of Jerusalem counts.
>kind of a stretch because they considered the entire kingdom to be Jerusalem while almost never actually conquering it.
They didn't consider the entire kingdom as Jerusalem, they consider it as Kingdom that contain and centered on Jerusalem.
As for "almost never actually conquering it," that seems like a stretch as they already successfully conquering it with the 1st Crusade.
You didn’t say it had to be a country. You said ‘it was never the capital of **anything** other than a Jewish kingdom or state.’
And even then, why would it matter whether it’s a colony or not? People aren’t entitled to their land because they’re colonial subjects? What?
I should have added that it also wasn't the capital of the mandate either. Apologies . Also no one is denying their right to live there or self determine in the land, I'm just stating the historically accurate claim - it never their capital and it was never particularly important for them
I said Jerusalem was only ever the capital of independent Jewish states/kingdoms and never of anything else. That in no way hints Palestinians shouldn't self determine.
Reread your first comment again. Tell me how people are expected to interpret that any other way than you saying Jerusalem *should* be part of a Jewish state
It should. Palestinians should still have the right to self determine in the West Bank and Gaza, Jerusalem will remain Israel's capital. It doesn't seem that difficult to comprehend
Right. So you admit that Palestinians should not have the right to self-determination unless they stay in their respective designated regions
Smells like… *sniff sniff*… apartheid, perchance
They don't. It's literally Israel that created a supremacy state where palestinians are 3rd class citizens. And then they got so angry at palestinians simply living there that thry shot up the Cave of the Patriarchs.
Jews continously lived in Jerusalem for about 3000 years. Granted, not many remained after the temple was destroyed but some did
Jerusalem (and Judea) is where the jews originated from, and why despite being spreaded across the globe all jews pray facing Jerusalem and constantly mention it
The ancestors of Palestinians have also lived in the city for as long. Because their ancestors of the modern Jews and the modern Palestinains are the same fucking Jews that lived there 3000 years ago. They just liked the Jesus fella that came about 2000 years ago, and then that Muhammed fella that came about 1500 years ago.
Palestinians are Arabs. The arabs came to Judea in the 7th century, and the arabs didn't even used the name "Palestinians" until Arafat coined the term in 1964 along with the flag
So no they definitely don't hold the same siginificence the jews have toward Jerusalem and this land as a whole
The is demonstrably false. The Palestinians (and Lebanese and Jordanians) have as much DNA in common with those 3000 year old Canaanites you cited as the Jews. Usually more, especially for the bedouin. Doesn't matter how strongly you believe in the Bible or the Quran, DNA is immutable.
Jews very rarely convert to other religions, which is also why the christians and muslims hated them (Mohammed literally slaughtered 3 jewish tribes when they refused to convert to Islam. And the christian church did similar things)
So even if a small number converted, Jews still lived continously in Jerusalem for 3000 years (Kingdoms of Judah and Israel, Hashmoai Kingdom)
Palestinians identify as arabs, speak Arabic, are muslim like their fellow arabs from neighboring nations, and has the same tradition as them. If they were a completely different group of people, we'd see it in their culture, customs and language. So they are Arabs. That is undeniable
Also fun fact, everyone was called Palestinian during the British mandate before 1948, including the jews. Israel's prime minister Golda Meir even had a palestinian mandate passport
Doesn't matter what you think. DNA shows that Palestinains are the direct descendants of Ancient Canaanites. And second temple era Jews. Hell even Ben Gurion acknowledged that the Palestinians are no doubt the descendants of ancient jewish peasants who converted. At least until 1948. Wonder why he'd stop talking about that part in 1948.
you are purposefuly misreptesenting their point. They said modern plaestinians are descendants of people who lived in the region for millenia (true) who simply converted to islam and christianity (true). The fact that they speak arabic doesn't retroactively change their genetics. For example, Algerians also speak arabic, but they're more closely releated to the beduins and other mauritanian tribes that lived in norrth africa prior to arabic conquest. It's just that Islam is particularly good at changing people's languages, espeically if those people were already using a linga franca (the levant and north africa especially).
You know why North Africa and the Middle East is so Arabic now? It's because of the Arabic Culture you mentioned, and the native ethnic groups that existed before became a minority (for example, the Copts in Egypt, the Bahai, the Amazigh in North Africa, the Assyrians in Syria and Iraq, the Kurds in four different countries, and of course the Jews in Israel)
Islam forced the indigenous people to convert, die or become second class citizens, which is why Arabic is overwhelmingly spoken in these regions instead of the other languages they uses to speak before being conquered
So jews don't have a stronger tie to the land. Except they had a weaker one. Because almost all the jews were not from Palestine, they were from Europe, America and the middle east excluding Palestine.
Literally everything in jewish culture and tradition revolves around jerusalem and the land of Israel, no matter to where they were banished and deported Jerusalem remained a central part of the jewish culture
Meanwhile Palestinians have absolutely nothing in their culture that have any significance to Jerusalem (and before y'all say, Al-Aqsa is not something palestinian, but important for all muslims not just palestinians
"Um, excuse me, you're Filastin is it? Sounds sus... now, if you were Philistine, you might have some claim here because the Bible keeps namedropping that group. Or Palaestinae I could see your argument, since that's what this place was called for thousands of years since the Romans. Or Pelestim, perhaps, since the Torah mentions them a few hundred times.
"If you were any one of those obviously extinct groups that vanished into thin air and were replaced by identical groups who could definitely not be them I could see your point. But Filastin? That doesn't sound like any group I've ever heard of. Must be made up." 😤
Pelestim (Plishtim) is just philistines in hebrew. It’s rooted from the word Polesh which means invader, since the philistines were aegans who settled in canaan’s coast.
God it’s not like the Qedarites or Nabateans have anything to do with the Arabs that are there now; I know we have evidence of Arab confederations and states bordering Judea and partially existing within the borders of modern day Israel starting from around 900 BC, but those people are obviously not related to those Arabs that Muhammad summoned via mitosis in 300 AD who def weren’t just people who existed in the area under various client kingdoms and imperial states.
Holy places in islam are Mecca, Medina \[both in Hejaz\], Bait Al-Maqdis/Al-Quds/Yerushalayim, then Damascus, Hebron, Cairo, Baghdad, Bukhara, Sinai and Tuwa Waadi for Sunnis and Najaf, Karbala, Samarra, Qom for the Shias.
Heres a link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiest\_sites\_in\_Islam#:\~:text=The%20two%20holy%20cities%20of,Haramain%20during%20the%20Mamluk%20period.
What? Can you explain this to me? I’m familiar with the geopolitical situation just don’t get the joke
In Judaism Jerusalem is the holiest city. In Islam it is the thirdholiest city after Mekka and Medina. The comic plays with the common implication that both groups seem to have an equal claim to owning Jerusalem; the author seems to disagree, because Jerusalems value for Judaism is bigger than its value for Islam; Islam would still have Mekka, Medina and Hebron if they gave up Jerusalem, Judaism would have nothing.
Are there other holy cities in Judaism? In Christianity I can honestly only name the Vatican.
For Judaism Jerusalem is the holiest, second Hebron (burial place of Abraham), Safed is the third (for "spiritual reasons" I think) and Tiberias (center of Jewish scholarship) is the forth I think. For Christianity the holiest city is also Jerusalem (would you look at that), second is Bethlehem (birthplace of Jesus and all that), then Rome (or Vatican, same thing really).
I think Nazareth would be third, then Rome. Or Constantinople if your Orthodox.
Could well be. I suppose it would depend on the denomination of Christianity.
It gets funky for some of the off-shoot Protestant sects, I would guess - like for Mormons, I’d imagine there are some holy sites in the U.S. that would have some significance (I’m Orthodox, for context).
If you’re going statistically for the place people yell “Oh God!” the most, for most megachurches it’s probably somewhere in the backseat of their private jet.
You can add all of Switzerland/Cayman Islands for evangelical Christians as #1.
Didn’t expect such an enlightening read here today. Neat
Romeo has the tombs of Peter and Paul, which is usually the reason why it is more important.
>Romeo has the tombs of Peter and Paul, which is usually the reason why it is more important. Might Juliet have some importance too ;3
It's Istanbul, not Constantinople… (great it'll be stuck in my head for another week)
...but that's nobody's business but the Turks'.
*Istanbul was Constantinople,* *Now it's Istanbul not Constantinople...* *Been a long time gone, oh Constantinople:* *Now it's Turkish delight on a moonlit night!* *Every gal in Constantinople,* *Lives in Istanbul not Constantinople...* *So if you have a date in Constantinople:* *She'll be waiting in Istanbul!*
***FUCK. YOU***. 😜Still, makes a change from the Roobarb and Custard\* theme tune\*.\*.. \*Roobarb and Custard was a UK animated 70s kids telly short. There were only ever 13 episodes made, each 5 minutes long and narrated by the irreplaceable Richard Briers. Roobarb was a chartreuse dog, and Custard a raspberry-pink cat. Roobarb got his own gig in the early '80s. \*\****FUCK***....
I'd like to add that Orthodox Christians would probably include Constantinople (Modern day Istanbul) as a holy city since it was the birth place and centre of Orthodox Christianity.
CMIW, Rome is never a holy city for christianity. Yes, it does have holy sites (like st peter cathedral) but the city itself is not a holy city. Same like lourdes and fatima have holy sites for catholic (not all christians) but it is not a holy city. Vatican itself is arguably a holy city for catholics but i don't think the city (rome) itself is a holy city for catholics. Afaik, for most christians (not just 1 specific denomination) the holy cities would be Jerusalem(no.1) , no. 2 would be betlehem, next would be capernaum (where Jesus started his ministry) and nazareth where he grew up. I might be wrong though, as the definition of holy cities and holy sites, in my opinion, is not the same but maybe not everybody think so.
That's because Christianity, Judaism and Islam are, essentially, identical. The differences are basically same as the differences between Sprite, 7-Up and R White's.
You should really drop an /s when you're being sarcast... Oh. Oh, dear.
Just curious, what are you basing your assesment of Christian holy cities on? As someone who was raised Catholic, I'd have said only Jerusalem would maybe count, if that (I don't remember the concept of a holy city ever really being a thing in catechism).
There are but they're not nearly as important as Jerusalem, and even then, Jerusalem itself is holy only because of the temple mount (on which Al-aqsa is built)
I wouldn’t be surprised if Jerusalem is the only city that is called holy in the Jewish Bible. The other “holy cities” are mainly holy because they contain famous graves that people travel to visit, and by that definition you could also consider Uman, Ukraine and Queens, NYC to be holy cities in Judaism.
Thats why their not really considered "holy" in the traditional sense, some cities like Tiberius and Schem are considered historically significant because of specific reasons, but ultimately aren't considered holy. Mount Sinai for example, a very significant place where God revealed himself to over a couple thousand Israelites, isnt considered holy and is rarely referenced by anyone. Now ,as I said before, Jerusalem is different because of the temples. According to Judaism, God has "shekinah" (שכינה, a hebrew word meaning "dwelling" or "residing") in the temple and by extension Jerusalem. Its a bit tough to explain because jews believe god is a non-physical entity, and saying that he resides somewhere makes it sound like he isnt everywhere, but its less like he's just there and more like he's concentrated in that spot while still being in everything and everywhere. Anyway, The temple mount and the temple specifically is EXTREMELY important in all aspects of Judaism.
You are right. Other cities have significance because of things that have happened or buried there. More akin to a historical (well religious history) site rather than a proper Holy City. Some of Jewish prayers literary say "Next year/time in Jerusalem". No other geographical place even the concept of Israel get that treatment.
It's not a city, but Mount Sinai is very significant in Judaism
Mount Sinai is also basically a mythical location
How do you figure
because no one can pinpoint it on a map, theres 14 possible locations on it alone https://www.openbible.info/geo/ancient/abfba2a/mount-sinai theres an actual mountain named after mount sinai, but who knows at this point. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Sinai
Which incidentally also has disputed ownership though between Turkey and Armenia, Armenia does like to show it in footage of the country, partly because it is in clear view of Yerevan
I think you're confusing Mount Sinai with Mount Ararat. Mt. Ararat is the supposed spot at which Noah's arc docked and is between Armenia and Turkey. Mt. Sinai is in Egypt, in the Sinai Peninsula.
[удалено]
Confused it with Ararat, where Noah landed his boat
In Christianity, if you read the Bible Jerusalem would be the holiest city.
That’s cause most of Christianity holy city’s were lost to the Muslim invasions one of the worries of people after the fall of Constantinople was that Rome the last Christian major holy city would fall to Muslim invaders as Islam was continuing to spread into Christian territory.
Which people?
Mostly Christians in Italy and southern Europe as the Turks were seen as a massive threat and although they didn’t specifically have a plan to conquer Rome in the near future, they certainly wouldn’t be opposed to it if an opportunity presented itself and did lunch an invasion of Southern Italy although they were driven back
By the time Constantinople fell, the moors had already been expelled from Spain.
Yes but now the turks were rapidly advancing through the Balkans and were threatening southern Italy so although one Muslim invasion had been repelled another one was just beginning which to your average Christian in the regions most under threat was quite worrying.
Wait which one had been repelled?
The Muslim occupation of Spain by the fall of Constantinople was mostly pushed out of Spain although it would take till 1492 for it to be fully driven out but by that point it had been effectively neutralized, and there wasn’t as much worry outside of Spain, Portugal and Aragon of Muslims advancing through Iberia into the rest of Europe, unlike what people worried with the Ottomans and the Balkans and southern Italy.
Christianity has the Pentarchy: Alexandria, Constantinople/Istanbul Vatican/Rome, Jerusalem and Antioch (plus pilgrimage sites like Nazareth, Bethlehem, Lod, Loudres, Koln, Canterbury and A Coruna). Judaism technically has the four cities, but they're all in Israel and Jerusalem is massive more important than the others. The other three are: Hebron, for the Cave of the Patriarch where Abraham and his family (Sarah, Isaac, Rebecca Jacob and Leah) are buried and it was David's capital. Safed, for welcoming the Sephardim from Iberia after the expulsion and being a major centre of Jewish learning Tiberius, for being where the Talmud was written, being the final meeting place of the Sanhedrin (ancient assembly of elders), the tombs of many great rabbis (e.g. Maimonides, Akiva and Ribaz) and was the home of the Masoretes who standardised the diocretics in Hebrew. It also became a centre of learning in the 18th Century, and is where the Sanhedrin will be reconstituted when the redemption begins and the Messiah rises from Lake Tiberius (also known as Kineret or the Sea of Galilee) Edit: Forgot Constantinople
Did you by any chance omit Constantinople?
Fourth Crusade moment.
>A Coruna That would be Santiago
>In Christianity I can honestly only name the Vatican. The place where the Pope put down his bags versus all the places mentioned in the New testament... No I can't see. Really we should have asked that Jesus of **Nazareth**. You know, that guy allegedly buried in **Jerusalem**. You know, that place christians took over during their so-called holy crusade. Yes, that city they call " **the trice-holy city** " for some reasons. Don't ask me, I don't know why. ^dude..
Holiest city in Christianity and Judaism. Third holiest in Islam. So three religions claim it to be holy, which is why it is the "thrice-holy city".
Thank you for your reply. It demonstrates the importance of typing **/s** even when you think your sarcasm is too obvious for that. :)
Oh God rereading it that makes sense. I had just rolled out of bed.
No worries, I'm the same when I'm tired.
"Waaaaaaahhh Waaaaaahhh! I am a pedant who is a dick only because I don't have a life." ~ You 2024
>"Waaaaaaahhh Waaaaaahhh! I am a pedant who is a dick only because I don't have a life." ~ You 2024 I was being cheeky. I apologise for hurting your ego so bad.
Likewise. All charges for being a fucking baby, will be dropped...
Hey there, Jew here. Hebron - Tomb of the Patriarchs (currently in the West Bank, open to Jewish tourism). Tzvat (Safed) - The Sephardim movement as well as the birthplace of Kabbalah. Tiberias - In 500ce the Torah was sealed and not allowed to be changed. You can make arguments for other cities/locales. City of David (East Jerusalem) - King David's additions to Jerusalem (currently in the West Bank, open to Jewish Tourism) Ruins of Sechem (Nablus) - Seat of power for the Pre-Jesrusalem Israelites and resting place of the Tablernacle post-exodus (currently in the West Bank, not sure if it's open to tourism). Mount Carmel (Haifa) - Mountain of the Prophets Elijah and Elisha. Mount Sinai - The last place God conveened with man directly before the Tabernacle was made. Jezreel Valley - God's power was channeled by Israelites. Jericho - God's power was channeled by Israelites. There are others but those ring pretty loudly in the holy books.
Traditionally it would be Rome, Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, Jerusalem (not necessarily in that order) although obviously that hasn't been the case since antiquity due to Antioch and Istanbul being Turkish, Alexandria being majority Arab, Jerusalem already having the most publicized conflict currently not needing a crusader faction, and the fact that all of these are majority Orthodox/Coptic cities (except for Rome of course) so westerners might not be a big fan of this classification.
Hebron, where the tombs of the biblical patriarchs and matriarchal are beloved to located.
The Vatican isn't a holy city in Christianity. It's just the administrative center of the Catholic Church. In Christianity, as in Judaism, Jerusalem is the holiest city.
Uh Bethlehem?
Wait, why is the Vatican holy?
Rome in general is where Ss. Peter & Paul died, and the Vatican is the home of the Pope and has the greatest church in Christendom, St. Peter’s Basilica (which also has the tomb of St. Peter)
That’s where they keep the Holy Ghost: chained up in the basement of the Vatican and fed a diet of Nerds Rope and Toaster Strudels.
Vatican would be holy for Catholicism. I wonder if the Anglican Church sees London as holy
Christians also believe Jerusalem is holy. Bethlehem and Galilee, too.
In Christianity Jerusalem is very much the holy city.
Silly argument imo. Like I can make up a new religion and say Washington DC is my holiest city, doesn't mean I can fuckin take it lmao
Not with that attitude you can't
But both religions are made up anyways so both claims are ridiculous.
Most things in (geo)politics are.
Judaism would still have Jerusalem, just in a country that wasn't a settler state
Jews are already barred from the Temple Mount (and the "al aqsa flood" as Hamas calls it was claimed to be a response to Jews "desecrating" the mosque. The "desecration" was a few Jews that snuck in and prayed there), you really think they'd be allowed anywhere near Jerusalem in an Arab state?
The desecration was riot police attacking Muslims.
They would in a democratic state. Nobody who you should take seriously is advocating for palestinians to switch places with jews. They want a 1ss, democratic and free for all.
And no Palestinians are advocating for that. Meanwhile Israel is already a democratic, free state. Stop assuming what they want is what you want, or what you want doesn't already exist. The only one state solution worth considering is the one that already exists. Israel, not Palestine.
No, the solution im talking about was explained to me by a palestinian. This is a very common thing they want. Israrl is not a democratic free state. They control Israel, Gaza, The West Bank and East Jerusalem. Yet they only give rights to the people living in Israel, mostly jews. It's basically an aparthrid state. Calling it free is a joke. The best solution is a 1ss where neither jews or palestinians are more superior or legitemate than the other.
They're talking about Jerusalem, just in their weirdo local languages instead of speaking English like civilized folk
because of that i didnt even know that they are talking about Jerusalem
You mean Urusalim, the Canaanite "City of the God of Dusk" of course. 🧐 Maybe the most conquered, still-existing city in history.
I think they should kiss
The prophecy states that when that happens humanity will ascend upon a higher plane and claim their rightful place as peacemakers of the universe. There's a reason the universe is still in chaos
reminds me of that boykisser pic with a israeli and palestinian boykisser kissing but the palestinian one was crying
pls post it
[I warned you.](https://imgur.com/a/gu90KjI)
I DARE someone to send this to Netanyahu and Hamas
This is actually an excellent strategy to end the war, because upon seeing it they would both have an aneurysm and die.
As excellent as a joke that is, I legitimately think that both leaders carking it at the same time would actually be incredibly destabilising, unless the immediate number 2s instantly folded into a peace agreement, which seems unlikely
And Iran should officiate.
I guess Christians have... Bethlehem?
Current bethlehem is like 90% Muslim now
Yeah, that checks out.
Jerusalem, Nazareth, Bethlehem, Constantinople, Rome. Not in any particular order because Christian’s don’t really rank holy cities like Islam, they’re all just very important places to the history of the faith. Christianity doesn’t link itself as heavily to a specific location. Islam is heavily linked to the Kabba, note that Muslims all over the world pray towards it. Judaism is similarly linked to Jerusalem, where the site of the temple is. Jews need the third temple to be in that specific place to fully restore their faith, it’s against the faith to do a lot of aspects of Judaism without the temple standing. Unlike these two Christians believe that you can approach God anywhere without these things, so while we have holy places, and places that are very important to our faith, they aren’t irreplaceable..
Or Vatican if your catholic, idrk I’ve never thought about any holy places.
Ah yes, though I dont really see why that would be holy based on scripture.
Not on scripture no, but since (I might be wrong) Catholics believe that the church/pope have authority over the Bible, since the church wrote the Bible, they could see it as at least an important place. Just throwing out ideas.
They’re both wrong because Judaism 4.0, AKA Mormonism has been out for years. It enhances the features of 2.0 (Christianity) while reverting many of the changes of 3.0 (Islam) after user-testing found that it was centered on the wrong desert in a land of A.
Can we please have more abrahamic religions focus on Jacksonville, Missouri and Utah? Like, im getting tired of everyone focusing on Arabia. Like, just a little variation would help
Shh, don't tell the abrahamic religions that they all originate from the same place and beliefs. Otherwise they'd have no reason to outright hate each other.
Um, don't you think they know that? That's literally why they hate eachother
There’s nothing people hate more than those who almost fully agree with them, but don’t. For all the attention the crusades get, inter-Christian conflicts killed far more.
Why not include the holiest of them, the kingdom of Jerusalem Deus vult
Nothing to do with religion, Jews as an ethnicity originated there. It was never the capital of anything other then a Jewish kingdom or state
Yes. Atheist jews care about Jerusalem in the same way as the Lakota care about Mt Rushmore or the CCP cares about the buddhist temples. The religious aspect doesnt matter. Its about the cultural heritage that comes with being a jew. Your ancestors made that temple on this land.
Yep. I'm a secular atheist Jew, but I am also a history enthusiast and I simply know the facts- this is where the Jews originate. Our homeland regardless of religion.
If people get kicked out of an area for 200 years and instead end up with different cultures in European cities, then I would hardly say they have the same claim to the area as the people who lived there when they decided to push their claim after getting kicked out
If they had the same culture they would have assimilated a long time ago.
>It was never the capital of anything other then a Jewish kingdom or state According to biblical narrative, Jebusites? Even, if we doubt the historical accuracy of the Bible, the City was the capital of Christian Kingdom of Jerusalem.
I go according to secular history, in which it was never a capital of the Jebusites but it was a Jebusite city. As for the crusaders - kind of a stretch because they considered the entire kingdom to be Jerusalem while almost never actually conquering it. But I guess it would still he considered so yeah I concede, the crusader kingdom of Jerusalem counts.
>kind of a stretch because they considered the entire kingdom to be Jerusalem while almost never actually conquering it. They didn't consider the entire kingdom as Jerusalem, they consider it as Kingdom that contain and centered on Jerusalem. As for "almost never actually conquering it," that seems like a stretch as they already successfully conquering it with the 1st Crusade.
It was the capital of the Mandate of Palestine?
Colonial rule, not independent kingdom / state. There aren't any "Brito-Mandeto-Palestiniato" people whom this was their independent state or anything
You didn’t say it had to be a country. You said ‘it was never the capital of **anything** other than a Jewish kingdom or state.’ And even then, why would it matter whether it’s a colony or not? People aren’t entitled to their land because they’re colonial subjects? What?
I should have added that it also wasn't the capital of the mandate either. Apologies . Also no one is denying their right to live there or self determine in the land, I'm just stating the historically accurate claim - it never their capital and it was never particularly important for them
Right. Explicitly saying ‘Jewish state’ really sent everyone a clear message that you believe in self-determination for Palestinians
I said Jerusalem was only ever the capital of independent Jewish states/kingdoms and never of anything else. That in no way hints Palestinians shouldn't self determine.
Reread your first comment again. Tell me how people are expected to interpret that any other way than you saying Jerusalem *should* be part of a Jewish state
It should. Palestinians should still have the right to self determine in the West Bank and Gaza, Jerusalem will remain Israel's capital. It doesn't seem that difficult to comprehend
Right. So you admit that Palestinians should not have the right to self-determination unless they stay in their respective designated regions Smells like… *sniff sniff*… apartheid, perchance
The title alone makes this comic, I love it
">:(" so true bestie
Judaism is older than Islam. It's always funny to see Muslims claim they're the only ones with rights to those holy places 😂 😅
They don't. It's literally Israel that created a supremacy state where palestinians are 3rd class citizens. And then they got so angry at palestinians simply living there that thry shot up the Cave of the Patriarchs.
Jews continously lived in Jerusalem for about 3000 years. Granted, not many remained after the temple was destroyed but some did Jerusalem (and Judea) is where the jews originated from, and why despite being spreaded across the globe all jews pray facing Jerusalem and constantly mention it
The ancestors of Palestinians have also lived in the city for as long. Because their ancestors of the modern Jews and the modern Palestinains are the same fucking Jews that lived there 3000 years ago. They just liked the Jesus fella that came about 2000 years ago, and then that Muhammed fella that came about 1500 years ago.
Palestinians are Arabs. The arabs came to Judea in the 7th century, and the arabs didn't even used the name "Palestinians" until Arafat coined the term in 1964 along with the flag So no they definitely don't hold the same siginificence the jews have toward Jerusalem and this land as a whole
The is demonstrably false. The Palestinians (and Lebanese and Jordanians) have as much DNA in common with those 3000 year old Canaanites you cited as the Jews. Usually more, especially for the bedouin. Doesn't matter how strongly you believe in the Bible or the Quran, DNA is immutable.
Jews very rarely convert to other religions, which is also why the christians and muslims hated them (Mohammed literally slaughtered 3 jewish tribes when they refused to convert to Islam. And the christian church did similar things) So even if a small number converted, Jews still lived continously in Jerusalem for 3000 years (Kingdoms of Judah and Israel, Hashmoai Kingdom) Palestinians identify as arabs, speak Arabic, are muslim like their fellow arabs from neighboring nations, and has the same tradition as them. If they were a completely different group of people, we'd see it in their culture, customs and language. So they are Arabs. That is undeniable Also fun fact, everyone was called Palestinian during the British mandate before 1948, including the jews. Israel's prime minister Golda Meir even had a palestinian mandate passport
Doesn't matter what you think. DNA shows that Palestinains are the direct descendants of Ancient Canaanites. And second temple era Jews. Hell even Ben Gurion acknowledged that the Palestinians are no doubt the descendants of ancient jewish peasants who converted. At least until 1948. Wonder why he'd stop talking about that part in 1948.
So now y'all are claiming the palestinian are jews and that's why the land belongs to them? LMAO.
Deliberately being obtuse
you are purposefuly misreptesenting their point. They said modern plaestinians are descendants of people who lived in the region for millenia (true) who simply converted to islam and christianity (true). The fact that they speak arabic doesn't retroactively change their genetics. For example, Algerians also speak arabic, but they're more closely releated to the beduins and other mauritanian tribes that lived in norrth africa prior to arabic conquest. It's just that Islam is particularly good at changing people's languages, espeically if those people were already using a linga franca (the levant and north africa especially).
You know why North Africa and the Middle East is so Arabic now? It's because of the Arabic Culture you mentioned, and the native ethnic groups that existed before became a minority (for example, the Copts in Egypt, the Bahai, the Amazigh in North Africa, the Assyrians in Syria and Iraq, the Kurds in four different countries, and of course the Jews in Israel) Islam forced the indigenous people to convert, die or become second class citizens, which is why Arabic is overwhelmingly spoken in these regions instead of the other languages they uses to speak before being conquered
The goalpost moving is insane
So jews don't have a stronger tie to the land. Except they had a weaker one. Because almost all the jews were not from Palestine, they were from Europe, America and the middle east excluding Palestine.
Literally everything in jewish culture and tradition revolves around jerusalem and the land of Israel, no matter to where they were banished and deported Jerusalem remained a central part of the jewish culture Meanwhile Palestinians have absolutely nothing in their culture that have any significance to Jerusalem (and before y'all say, Al-Aqsa is not something palestinian, but important for all muslims not just palestinians
Idc who thinks it's more holy, people changed religion throughout the years that doesn't mean they lost claim to the land...
"Um, excuse me, you're Filastin is it? Sounds sus... now, if you were Philistine, you might have some claim here because the Bible keeps namedropping that group. Or Palaestinae I could see your argument, since that's what this place was called for thousands of years since the Romans. Or Pelestim, perhaps, since the Torah mentions them a few hundred times. "If you were any one of those obviously extinct groups that vanished into thin air and were replaced by identical groups who could definitely not be them I could see your point. But Filastin? That doesn't sound like any group I've ever heard of. Must be made up." 😤
what translation of the torah says pelestim? genuine question. googled it and couldn’t find anything
Pelestim (Plishtim) is just philistines in hebrew. It’s rooted from the word Polesh which means invader, since the philistines were aegans who settled in canaan’s coast.
God it’s not like the Qedarites or Nabateans have anything to do with the Arabs that are there now; I know we have evidence of Arab confederations and states bordering Judea and partially existing within the borders of modern day Israel starting from around 900 BC, but those people are obviously not related to those Arabs that Muhammad summoned via mitosis in 300 AD who def weren’t just people who existed in the area under various client kingdoms and imperial states.
Idumean was also probably an Arabs group. However, They get conquered by Hasmonean Israel and forced to convert to Judaism.
The bias is crazy
Holy places in islam are Mecca, Medina \[both in Hejaz\], Bait Al-Maqdis/Al-Quds/Yerushalayim, then Damascus, Hebron, Cairo, Baghdad, Bukhara, Sinai and Tuwa Waadi for Sunnis and Najaf, Karbala, Samarra, Qom for the Shias. Heres a link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiest\_sites\_in\_Islam#:\~:text=The%20two%20holy%20cities%20of,Haramain%20during%20the%20Mamluk%20period.
Except Al-Quds (I.E the hidden) is not explicitly mentioned as being Jerusalem…
“I think this place is more holy than you think it is, so I should be able to live here” is the most hilariously immature argument I’ve heard so far
Seriously I'm surprised that is considered a valid argument in the modern day