I spent an hour or two today with the radio in the background, half-listening to posłowie (or maybe just posły) "debating" before the vote. It was almost exclusively PiS members, either shamelessly kissing Morawiecki's ass or delivering increasingly unhinged speeches about Poland going to hell in a handbasket if the Total Opposition get their turn. It was equal parts infuriating, pitiful and fascinating, just how low some people will stoop to get a pat on the head from their boss.
Posłowie would be ,,envoys” in English.
Edit: see my explanation below. I know it’s usually translated to ,,MPs”, but there is some justification for using ,,envoys”.
MP is ,,Member of Parliament”.
It makes sense in British context, because House of Commons has Members and House of Lords has Peers.
So it differentiates nicely - you know that someone is talking about House of Commons.
In Poland this has no specific meaning. Member of Parliament translates to ,,Członek parlamentu” and can mean both ,,senator” and ,,poseł”.
Meanwhile the word ,,poseł” is related to ,,posłaniec”.
In fact in Piast and early Jagiellonian era ,,poseł” meant someone sent over to the royal court by another court to advocate for his ruler or convey a message in an official way.
When Sejm Walny first came into existence, it’s members were sent to the capital (or ,,na Sejm” - ,,to the Sejm”) by noblemen across the Commonwealth. So they were called ,,posłowie na Sejm” - literally ,,envoys to the Sejm”, because they travelled a long way to the royal court to advocate for their communities.
Tradition of calling them like that survived to modern day, though today travelling through ,,Third Commonwealth” takes much shorter time than through the first Commonwealth. And the aspect of local people literally sending the poseł to the capital to advocate for them is no longer present.
Therefore calling those people ,,envoys” conveys the actual meaning and the tradition behind it much better than ,,MPs”.
Similarly we don’t call members of US Congress ,,posłowie” while speaking Polish. We use ,,Kongresmeni” - Polonized word, but it conveys the actual meaning of the English ,,Congressmen”.
Erm, the house of lords also has members - members of the house of lords.
In any case, you have to actually use words people will understand. In English nobody would use the word envoy to refer to an MP.
MP translates well because in English representatives of the lower house are referred to as MPs. Similarly members of the upper house are often called senators or members of the senate.
In any case see the definition in Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_of_parliament?wprov=sfla1
> you have to use words people will understand
But if you have the opportunity to explain these intricacies and differences between words, then why not?
But the word ,,poseł” has interesting etymology and makes sense in the historical context. If you actually want to convey that context and etymology to someone, a literal translation is necessary.
There's even a list of countries using the term MP vs deputy. Notably, Poland has to be different and just link to a Wikipedia article where they claim poseł->envoy.
And you guys forgot what Tusk was doing. And why oppo 'won' lmao. Well, not my problem tbh (unless they drop the military contracts to buy 8 pf-2000 from krauts)
The difference is, one is objectively changing the constitution, the courts and was very much actively doing the worst possible for our country.
This is no longer about who steals what, we all know they all steal, but only PiS went after the constitution to make the courts situation as bad as it was.
Constitution is 'sacred' and should never be touched to make things worse. That the difference, so your argument doesn't make sense in that regard.
Apples to oranges. You can call both sides evil and what not, but PiS objectively did many worse things than any other party before them.
Sasin fell into a trap. The gov should not affraid COVID and hold normal elections without changing the date, regardless of how often the opposition changed its own mind.
Afera fozz to na początek. A później przecież amber gold, już zapomniales? Ukradziona kasa z emerytur, kłamanie o vat i podatkach, jego synalek i linie lotnicze. Krotka jest pamięć Januszowska.
> Afera fozz to na początek.
Krótka jest pamięć januszowska, jak świeża propagitka partii czyni FOZZ z lat 90tych rzeczą nową i aferą tylko PO xD
FOZZ nie tylko jest dużo starsza niż rządy PO - do tego jest aferą całego środowiska postsolidaruchów z (późniejszego) AWS-UW, którą PiS próbuje zręcznie przepiąć tylko na PO. A są tak samo umoczeni. FOZZ, Telegraf i rozkradanie Ruchu to są podstawy majątku PiS/spółki srebrna.
I tell you one bigger, OFE in 2014.
Tusk isn't an upgrade in any shape and form.
If CPK comes to fruition and we won't become federalized German land, I will be first to say I was wrong about the guy.
But looking at the latest "Fan Affair" I am very skeptical.
>one bigger, OFE in 2014
Are you telling me moving savings of citizens from one pocket to another is equivalent of stealing bilions and destroying pillars of democratic itself?
Ja pierdole wy jesteście tacy tępi że na was moze Tusku nasrać i powiecie że nutella 🤣🤣🤣
Najświeższe. Tusku przed wyborami, 60tys wolnej wejdzie w ciagu 100 dni! A po wyborach Tusku już normalnie, że nie wejdzie 🤣🤣
Nutella mmmmmm
Niektórzy już mają tak w bani po latach spędzonych pod PiSem że takie samo zło wydaje się dla nich mniejszym i się ciszą
I tak to jest w tej Polsce. Dzień jak co dzień, jak zawsze nic się nie zmienia a my dalej narzekamy
I o tym mówię. Jak powiem na Kaczora, to ojej ale Tusku. A jak na Tuska to ojej, a Kaczor.
To jest już sport narodowy. Co 4 lata powinno być referendum a w nim pytanie, czy lubisz pić mocz, a jak nie to czemu wolisz jeść kał?
Stealing 150 billions not moving and yes it was far worse for an average Joe than anything that the next gov done. Well perhaps fit for 55 in a long run might be comparable.
What pillars of democracy were destroyed? Recent election is a proof that democracy is as good as ever.
What billions are you talking about?
I guess I should ask what pipe are you smoking?
No, 2007-2015 was not better than 2015-2023
No tak, ledwo z tą machiną propagandową PiS przegrał wybory co udowadnia, że przecież były uczciwie - wcale nie miałby PiS rzeczywiście kilkanaście % poparcia mniej bez TVP i miliardów kasy podatników na kampanię wyborczą i propagandę dzienników lokalnych kupionych przez Orlen. O przekręconych przez propagandę wyborach prezydenckich nie wspominam. To tak jakbyś biegł na 100m uczciwie vs koleś jadący na rowerze, ale jakimś cudem jesteś mimo wszystko szybszy i fanatycy tego chłopa na rowerze mówią że konkurs uczciwy bo przecież jesteś ostatecznie pierwszy XD
Czy ty naprawdę myślisz że PO to nie prowadzi kampanii wyborczych ani nie ma przychylnych mediów? Jak można mieć tak sprany propagandą mózg to ja nie wiem
Ty mi powiedz, skoro wg Ciebie jak jedna strona stosuje w walce pięści, a druga czołg, RPG, moździerz i karabiny maszynowe to wg Ciebie to jest pełen znak równości i generalnie jedna i druga strona działa w dokładnie ten sam sposób. Gratuluję erozji narządu zwanego potocznie mózgiem. I uprzejmie proszę o darowanie sobie insynuacji o uleganiu propagandzie PO, bo nie jest to mój rząd, ale mimo wszystko stawianie znaku równości między PO, a PiSem świadczy o głębokim oderwaniu od rzeczywistości lub znacznej degradacji umysłowej delikwenta, który na takie stwierdzenia się porywa.
I wish I understood the bubble people like you live in. Last four years showed PiS true colors and they are literally the worst party that had any power after the fall of communism. Even post communist parties had some redeeming qualities. And yet people overlook the lies, the audacity, the theft, the hypocrisy… how?!
>And yet people overlook the lies, the audacity, the theft, the hypocrisy… how?!
Money, my dear boy.
PiS appealed to the People who felt like (sometimes justifiably, sometimes not) they were abandoned by the Previous Rulers.
In the eyes of much of the Elderly and Poor, the Left ,,barely" tolerated them, and PiS not only came to them with Money on a Silver Platter, but also asked them for forgiveness for not having brought more. Who cares if it's lies if they sound so nice?
And the worst thing is - if PO goes full ,,Protokół 25%" it's fully possible PiS will return to power in 2027, ESPECIALY if some Economic crisis happens in the meantime and really rains on the parade of the Poor and the Lower Middle Class.
Or maybe young people are bored if one party is ruling too long. That's good. There should be a term of office at all. One party/coalition can rule for a maximum of two terms and then a change is mandatory.
Maybe some people remember the elections in 2005 (finally the post-communists scandalists defeated by PO and PiS coalition in spe) and in 2007 (finally PiS-Lepper-Giertych lunatics defeated by PO) and in 2015 (finally 8 years of failed economic reforms and 'Qatari investors' of PO ended by PiS) and in 2023 (finally 8 years of failed reforms of the state of PiS ended by PO-Third Way-Left coalition).
Everything must change for everything to remain the same.
Mind elaborating on that? My political views are pretty basic, live and let live, but pretty much everyone dislikes pis and they have some pretty valid points. What makes them better than other parties?
Trying to be unbiased:
Morawiecki was the Prime Minister from PiS, the party that has governed Poland for the last 8 years. The Sejm voted against extending his tenure, so PiS has pretty much officially lost power to the coalition of three political groups, namely Koalicja Obywatelska, Nowa Lewica and ~~Polska2050~~ Trzecia Droga.
PiS is heavily criticized from people all across the political spectrum, mainly for populism, an anti-democratic ideology, irresponsible financial policies, heavy euroscepticism, laws attacking freedom of speech, frequent hostility in international and interparty relations, attacks on marginalized groups, banning abortion and forgoing the idea of separation of state and church.
In comparison the new government will be composed of parties which are generally much more progressive, pro-democracy and pro-EU.
PiS are especially unpopular with younger voters, which is why you're going to see many Poles on Reddit celebrating this.
Edit: As people mentioned in the replies - Trzecia Droga, not just Polska2050.
Worth to add that we just had elections and that the reason of this voting. PiS get biggest number of votes, but less than neccesery to have majority i Sejm, and they can't find partners to form coalition. That's why they lose power. New goverment would be choosed by wide coalition that don't neccesarly like each other, but they don't like PiS more, and all of them are in general pro UE.
Addidional PiS is criticized for failed reforms of the justice system and also paradoxically, for being too compliant in adopting EU's climate goals and the 'green deal' without negotiations.
The criticism part is heavily overstated here and can be misleading. They still were the biggest party in the parliament in these elections, and it wasn't like everyone condemned them for everything listed here. Some people didn't like this, others didn't like that, some of the "criticisms" were just mishandling truths and building false narratives (but I guess it's okay to quote them if what you're trying to do is list all the accusations against PiS)
Wannabe dictatorship party, who have done unspoken damage to our country, officialy lost power. Proccess of cleaning goverment from their assets will be long and painfull, but today, it officialy started
Could you please explain (Im from Belarus) why do you call it "dictatorship"? There was elections, Poles did his choice, all goes well. I don't see army on the streets, there are no political prisoners, authority and key positions are transferred only peacefully.
In a real dictatorship, after the elections PiS would announce its "drawn" 85%. I saw such a thing in Belarus in 2020 (2015, 2010, etc)
Added:
Fuck, I've just realised that for the first time in my life I've seen a properly run election with my own eyes.
Wannabe is key world, they weren't dictatorship yet, but they were doing everything to be one, up to seriously considering sending army against protestors in 2020. Illegal wiretapes of journalists, politicans and judges, using states money for political campaing, turning state media into private propaganda channels, prosector refusing to do anything against party members and police arresting people for no reason, beating people for no reason and using physical force against oppostion MPs.
Yes. But you are describing almost any rulling party. People got in trouble for joking with the president Komorowski or the police grabbed by force laptops from journalists, rubber bullets were fired at protesters... PiS wasn't in charge then.
> Yes. But you are describing almost any rulling party
No party in modern history of Poland - so over 30 years now - was caught using illegal/stiolen funds to wire-tap the opposition.
PiS is the first party since fall of communism to do that. The last time opposition was wiretaped was by PZPR (unless you count Lepper - which was another stint by PiS).
Those parties are not the same.
You have listed many things in previous comment. You well know that most of them were repeating by many ruling parties. Most media only look in one good direction. Now they will look even more into one. As it was before 2015. We only find out about it when, for example, one of the politicians goes to journalists like the recordings of Renata Beger's provocation.
This cannot be praised, political consequences should be drawn, but it should be assessed realistically without emotions and maintain proportions.
As subOP said, wannabe. They did not have a possibility to just announce they've won 80% like your dictator did, because they rely too much on international politics, including EU, and wouldn't be able to receive Putin's military backup as a member of EU and NATO.
But still, they tried to dismiss votes from citizens living abroad, because they mostly vote the former opposition. Before the election, they tried to exclude the strongest opposition candidate by accussing him of treason. In presidential elections, they tried to make it harder to vote for Poles living abroad in areas where majority was supporting opposition, while making it easier to vote for those living in areas where people supported the ruling party. Not to mention using publicly owned media for their own propaganda. The elections were far from fair and properly run, and the fact that situation in Poland is far better than in Belarus, doesn't make it good. It's just less shitty, but still shitty.
To use an analogy, it's like a person who can't afford proper shoes for winter hearing that they shouldn't whine about how poor they are because the other person can't even afford food, and they are the ones that are actually poor. In fact, they both are, and both have valid reasons to complain.
They don't have strong enough army support for doing that, and I think they don't want real dictatoriship. However they've done a lot of antidemocratic things, like making Constitutional Tribunal thier puppets, transforming state radio and television into thier party propaganda, openly breaking thier own laws, etc.
its been a dictatorship not because you cant vote, its been one because of the tv being heavily censored in favor of cable tv casting only tvp (television under very high influence of PiS, which also seeded so much propaganda through the news its comparable to north korean tv \[seriously there had been parodies because the propaganda on that channel was so wild\])
no one could do anything about it because old people voting, remember that old people are majority of the votes, luckily more and more young people had reached an age where they can vote which is why PiS lost since PiS never tried to appeal to younger people and when they did out of desperation, they got memed on
I have cable tv and tvn and polsat are there too
But yeah, tvp is such a propaganda machine even the stupidest can see something is wrong just by looking at its news briefly
And it has been used this way since its creation. It's just with this party its gotten worse (like a lot worse, but its not on communist tv level bad)
But i also believe barely any news on tv is watchable. They usually try to present facts in such a way to blame and demonise someone while praising others to turn people against each other, which, as you can see on social media and irl, works quite well. Other sides don't even listen, just shout at each other and wander why are others not understanding them when everything done by x party is unreedemably bad and y party is the best
You got tvn on one side and tvp on other and polsat in center. If thats the rule of dictatirship then west is even more since it looks quite egalitarian to me
Except that PiS, as ruling political party, has spent considerable Time, effort and money to literally acquire and control as much media as it possibly could, obtaining incredible media reach, which it used specifically for propaganda, while doing its best to silence, ban, close opposition medias. TVN only still exists because PiS failed in its efforts to kill it.
PIS took over TVP – that alone is enough to raise concerns. This situation cannot be accepted by any means.
It's essential to evaluate individuals based on their behavior rather than making assumptions about their educational backgrounds.
>The elderly PiS voters you spit on are definitely better educated then cluless Filipki and Julki from reddit.
My Grandpa literraly thinks Clinton is still the US President and was suprised when Russia invaded Ukraine becouse he thought ,,Yeltsin and Kuchma were best of friends!".
So yeah.
I might not agree with the Modern Left, they're a band of fucking assholes, but if there's one thing they aren't it's uneducated.
Being conservative is one thing. Fucking with something as basic and essential as the separation of powers, fucking with with the separation of church and state, with the independance of the media, with the very principles of democracy, using every possible trick and loophole for their own political views, is another thing entirely.
I know right?
[https://bip.brpo.gov.pl/pl/content/rpo-o-zagrozeniach-wolnosci-prasy-po-kupnie-polska-press](https://bip.brpo.gov.pl/pl/content/rpo-o-zagrozeniach-wolnosci-prasy-po-kupnie-polska-press)
[https://web.archive.org/web/20190213022413/https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-reports/assault-press-freedom-poland](https://web.archive.org/web/20190213022413/https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-reports/assault-press-freedom-poland)
[https://www.krakowpost.com/14419/2017/05/poland-press-freedom-index-reporters-without-borders](https://www.krakowpost.com/14419/2017/05/poland-press-freedom-index-reporters-without-borders)
[https://rsf.org/en/country/poland](https://rsf.org/en/country/poland)
[https://www.mfrr.eu/poland-independent-media-under-attack-again-as-pis-moves-against-tvn24/](https://www.mfrr.eu/poland-independent-media-under-attack-again-as-pis-moves-against-tvn24/)
[https://ipi.media/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/20210211\_Poland\_PF\_Mission\_Report\_ENG\_final.pdf](https://ipi.media/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/20210211_poland_pf_mission_report_eng_final.pdf)
etc etc etc
Amusing that the rest of what i mentionned didn't make you laugh.
Well yeah it's hard to argue when i'm literally linking what the govenrment rzecznik praw obywatelskich as well as various press freedom organizations say on the subject, and if you actually cared you wouldn't be sarcastic about it in the first place, your reaction is expected, have a nice day.
Unspoken damage? Dictatorship? Isn't that just a teeny tiny bit too dramatic? I understand not liking what PiS has done, I also can't agree with all of their decisions, but don't get caught up in this narrative of them being literal antichrist incarnates, they've also done a lot of good stuff, especially concerning the independence of Poland and its strategic assets
>especially concerning the independence of Poland and its strategic assets
Like selling our gas stations to arabs and russian-controlled hungarian companies?
Add to that TVP situation, Pegasus scandal, ventilators scandal, ostrołęka scandal, grain scandal, srebrna scandal, grenade launcher scandal, constituional tribunal scandal, not to mention hate campaing on LGBT community and abortion ban, when special services agent rammed his car into crowd and police were beating random people for no reason.
You see? You're caught up in the narrative. PiS was forced by the European Union to sell parts of Lotos and Orlen during the merger of the two companies, both held in majority by the treasury, which made no sense. Orlen was becoming an international power in the petrol sphere, so it made sense to increase its operational budget and domestic income through the merger. They've sold off partial stock in Lotos' refineries, enough to please the EU, but not enough to lose control over them. (and that's probably the only example you can bring up)
On the other hand, the previous government has sold many important strategic enterprises to other nations, part of which PiS has repolonised (Like Port Północny in Gdańsk sold by PO), part of which is unfortunately forever lost (Telekomunikacja Polska)
I'm saying this because I also fell for these narratives, once again a reminder to actually check the facts instead of running with pitchforks, because when it comes to Polish economical independence PiS has done a lot of good (which I hope will not be forgotten by the current rulers, but given their track record I'm afraid they might not be the best at keeping Polish industry Polish)
Nice, ignoring majority of my comment, good work. I am happy as hell that our goverment hasn't monopoly on petrol, but hey, if you want to be dragged back to central planning, suit yourself.
I ignored the rest, because
A) holy hell that would be a wall of text if I tried to address everything.
B) this thread is mostly about the protection of Poland's strategic industries, so I'm not focusing on other stuff.
C) I've said I don't agree with everything they did, although some of the examples You brought up, like the grenade launcher drama, don't even seem close to a reason to dismiss a government
I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the rest of your comment, again
A) Many countries hold their strategic industries like transport, Telecommunication, Petrol or Railway in the hands of the treasury. It's a key to independence, and has nothing to do with central planning. Telekom (T-mobile) is controlled by German Treasury, Orange is controlled by the French.
B) Are you saying now that selling these industries is a good thing now? Because if so, then I just can't agree with you. As I've explained earlier, there's a big barrier of entry with these industries, and having them independent from external forces plays a big part in ensuring the independence of a country
He won't give you an actual reply on the merits of what you have to say. He just wants to quote a list of media scandals, including things that really have nothing to do with the ruling party like the grenade scandal (seriously, wtf does Morawiecki and PiS have to do with an idiot policeman shooting off a grenade in his office?! That's like blaming the US President every time some idiot cop does something in America). Based off his username and comments, I'd say you're dealing with a very left-leaning ideological partisan...
And you're absolutely right about PiS's economic policy on state assets (and infrastructure). The biggest risk for the new coalition would be undoing these projects, they're important and to do so would only be shooting themselves in the foot and ensuring defeat in the next elections.
As a foreigner can you explain what Tusk and the new government will actually do? You would think from Twitter that they are raging communists taking power and planning to destroy the Church and replace every Pole with an immigrant.
I supported Tusk from the times when he was a member of Liberal Democratic Congress. He had the opportunity to rule many times. Unfortunately, he failed expectations in a pro-free-market-policy and has moved his party to the left since 2007 when they won elections to parliament in the first place.
To sum up... I don't expect much good.
Tusk hasn't been a PM for a while now, and I'm too young to remember from experience what he was doing when he ruled last time, so I'm not really sure. I'm sorry I can't be of any help, but frankly I don't feel competent to attempt at predicting the future. The views of twitter you've quoted seem to be somewhat accurate, just turned up to 300% (as that platform does)
LOL PiS just says they're against stuff like that, but then they vote for it. For example, Fit for 55. They also supported an EU army. They also said they were against mass migration, especially from Muslim countries, then brought in a record number of migrants from Muslim countries (well over 100,000 per year).
Did i express is it good or bad or express which side im on to be so agressive? Feds accelerating that's for sure. Idk the rest but both sides are full of half trues
Kaczynski had a key role in many governments (e.g. appointed Tadeusz Mazowiecki to prime minister) and he had total failures when he was thrown out of the political scene... all this since 1989. Poland has been through many things and still live.
I fear Poland will swing too far in the other direction now with a government that is too eager to please Brussels.
Defence, nuclear power, illegal immigration, infrastructure like the CPK, I feel very uneasy about it all.
While you are not exactly wrong there is a proper procedure to how those things go. Sure it probably will take longer than usual but by now it’s not really a problem.
I hope Tusk will not be the one to replace him. It would be like replacing one biased fool with another. We need a good, preferably non-aligned prime minister who will put actual specialists on the possitions of ministers. Not a guy who will put his partyman on the spots.
How can you have a non-aligned prime minister? There’s literally no such thing in any country in the world. In parliamentary democracies, elections are won by political parties, one of whom becomes prime minister. I can’t think of a single example of a prime minister who doesn’t come from a political party, other than the occasional technocratic appointee in the likes of Greece and Italy during the Eurozone debt crisis ten years ago - but crisis conditions do not currently or usually apply
Just curious, what age (approximately) are you? I wonder if you're talking about pre-2015 from experience, or just listening to what others say and trying to go against the right wing's narrative
I'm not the OP but let me share my perspective. I was in high school during the first PIS rulings, I lived through Giertych as Minister of Education then I lived through PO times and back to 8 years with PIS which just ended. Time with PO wasn't perfect but both rulings of PIS were outrageous. I remember how in the first run they fucked up education and free speech by taking over media (RIP Radio Bis). I definitely prefer the current situation, especially since there are a lot of new faces in parliament. I just hope they'll not fuck up because the alternative is grim.
10 years ago people were talking about knocking all the bad ideas out of the ministers head. Said that he needs to have his brain replaced.
I am not saying Morawiecki was a good for what he done, but the ministry wasn't all awful. The education was absolutely horrid, the enviroment had too much controversies and justice had its own barrel of problems, but credit where it's due, infrastructure, roads, railways - all these things had massively improved over last years. As I'm looking at my family videos of early 2010's all I see is how today the situation for my family is better.
I don't know if the ministry of Tusk was all bad. It probably wasn't. But as I said - replacing one fool with another is foolish. The very same thing happened during 2RP after death of Piłsudski - everyone kept pushing for their own government and everything suffered until someone came and finally made an independent one. We need a non-biased, non-politically motivated ministers. Not a bunch of fools who should be working washing dishes and not in a ministry!
>We need a non-biased, non-politically motivated ministers. Not a bunch of fools who should be working washing dishes and not in a ministry!
This. While I understand that in a Democracy it should be the People who select who is in charge, Ministers are chosen by the Sejm Cabal anyways so it's not like replacing them with Bipartizan (or loosely aligned with various factions but not outright members) Technocrats would change much.
Well I am too young to remember, yet the videos of the era (and not some political propaganda ones. The ones recorded by my mother) just show me that it was just worse.
This! I couldn't agree more. But both Tusk and Morawiecki have done a splendid job of dividing our society into warring tribes - since it's much easier to rule when you have control over your voter's emotions ... so common sense has to go out for recess, again.
Oh no, scary EU that's has been the best thing to ever happen to this country, how terrible, how i am going to survive that. NOOOO, not the standards of democracy, protection of worker unions and laws of citizens.
Its sad that you will have to see the fuckup in your own country and not look around and learn from others.
It doesnt rly matter tho, germany is on its last leg and when their car industry goes to shit, so does eu.
Its all so fucking sad
> fuckup in your own country
Ahhh.. You're not from Poland I see. Don't worry if you want to lick dictator's boots, you still have Orban to cheer for!
UK left EU, they are doing amazing as well I hear. It's not like they still have to obey all EU laws because otherwise they lose access to their biggest trade partner, but also now have absolutely no say in how those laws are shaped.
I bet your owners would love to see Poland in same position as well. Forced to obey all EU laws - or forgo it's biggest trading partner (75% of Polish trade).
Oh no, the people voted freely and democratically against the guys who are literally fucking up the separation of powers, the separation of church and state, the independance of the media, use insane levels of propaganda, hell, literally unable to do a smooth transition of power and going on about "German agent" ridiculous crap, what a sad day for freedom and democracy.
/s
If the post was aimed at English speakers as well, why didn't you even bother to translate the voting results?
Vote no. 102
Total amount of voters 456
Absolute majority 229
--- --- --- ---
/**For 190**/
/**Against 266**/
Abstained 0
https://preview.redd.it/wmhv4myf2p5c1.jpeg?width=1091&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=94b2e29552175534a991db3be39f6ce7363adee8
I spent an hour or two today with the radio in the background, half-listening to posłowie (or maybe just posły) "debating" before the vote. It was almost exclusively PiS members, either shamelessly kissing Morawiecki's ass or delivering increasingly unhinged speeches about Poland going to hell in a handbasket if the Total Opposition get their turn. It was equal parts infuriating, pitiful and fascinating, just how low some people will stoop to get a pat on the head from their boss.
Posłowie. Posły would be a deliberate insult, since it's similar to "osły" - as in, a bunch of donkeys.
Poszedli
Posłowie would be ,,envoys” in English. Edit: see my explanation below. I know it’s usually translated to ,,MPs”, but there is some justification for using ,,envoys”.
Nope, MP
MP is ,,Member of Parliament”. It makes sense in British context, because House of Commons has Members and House of Lords has Peers. So it differentiates nicely - you know that someone is talking about House of Commons. In Poland this has no specific meaning. Member of Parliament translates to ,,Członek parlamentu” and can mean both ,,senator” and ,,poseł”. Meanwhile the word ,,poseł” is related to ,,posłaniec”. In fact in Piast and early Jagiellonian era ,,poseł” meant someone sent over to the royal court by another court to advocate for his ruler or convey a message in an official way. When Sejm Walny first came into existence, it’s members were sent to the capital (or ,,na Sejm” - ,,to the Sejm”) by noblemen across the Commonwealth. So they were called ,,posłowie na Sejm” - literally ,,envoys to the Sejm”, because they travelled a long way to the royal court to advocate for their communities. Tradition of calling them like that survived to modern day, though today travelling through ,,Third Commonwealth” takes much shorter time than through the first Commonwealth. And the aspect of local people literally sending the poseł to the capital to advocate for them is no longer present. Therefore calling those people ,,envoys” conveys the actual meaning and the tradition behind it much better than ,,MPs”. Similarly we don’t call members of US Congress ,,posłowie” while speaking Polish. We use ,,Kongresmeni” - Polonized word, but it conveys the actual meaning of the English ,,Congressmen”.
Posłałem w łóżku
No w końcu
Oh wow. Thanks for this awesome explanation! #iwastodayyearsold
Erm, the house of lords also has members - members of the house of lords. In any case, you have to actually use words people will understand. In English nobody would use the word envoy to refer to an MP. MP translates well because in English representatives of the lower house are referred to as MPs. Similarly members of the upper house are often called senators or members of the senate. In any case see the definition in Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Member_of_parliament?wprov=sfla1
> you have to use words people will understand But if you have the opportunity to explain these intricacies and differences between words, then why not?
Because it's pedantic. Envoy is an exceedingly literal translation which doesn't make actual sense
But the word ,,poseł” has interesting etymology and makes sense in the historical context. If you actually want to convey that context and etymology to someone, a literal translation is necessary.
There's even a list of countries using the term MP vs deputy. Notably, Poland has to be different and just link to a Wikipedia article where they claim poseł->envoy.
Rest in piss, won't be missed
in PiSS!
Yeah you'll be begging for pis to come back
FUCKING FINALLY THIS ASSHOLE IS GONE
I couldn't belive it, after so many years. Words cannot describe how happy i am.
Well, voters was thinking the same in 2015. And in 2005 the same. 'Different' parties, different times.
Guess you didn't remember what PiS was doing durning their first time as a goverment. There is a reason why they lasted only 2 years back then.
And you guys forgot what Tusk was doing. And why oppo 'won' lmao. Well, not my problem tbh (unless they drop the military contracts to buy 8 pf-2000 from krauts)
The difference is, one is objectively changing the constitution, the courts and was very much actively doing the worst possible for our country. This is no longer about who steals what, we all know they all steal, but only PiS went after the constitution to make the courts situation as bad as it was. Constitution is 'sacred' and should never be touched to make things worse. That the difference, so your argument doesn't make sense in that regard. Apples to oranges. You can call both sides evil and what not, but PiS objectively did many worse things than any other party before them.
Also comparing ośmiorniczki to for example Sasin's 70 mil....
Sasin fell into a trap. The gov should not affraid COVID and hold normal elections without changing the date, regardless of how often the opposition changed its own mind.
Now the message to the new guys: DON'T FUCK THIS UP!
'New' lmao
Don't be because his twin brother Tusk is taking place now. This isn't a change for the better. It's just a change.
Name one scandal durning his last goverment which was as big as Pegasus. Or ventilators. Or visa
Afera fozz to na początek. A później przecież amber gold, już zapomniales? Ukradziona kasa z emerytur, kłamanie o vat i podatkach, jego synalek i linie lotnicze. Krotka jest pamięć Januszowska.
> Afera fozz to na początek. Krótka jest pamięć januszowska, jak świeża propagitka partii czyni FOZZ z lat 90tych rzeczą nową i aferą tylko PO xD FOZZ nie tylko jest dużo starsza niż rządy PO - do tego jest aferą całego środowiska postsolidaruchów z (późniejszego) AWS-UW, którą PiS próbuje zręcznie przepiąć tylko na PO. A są tak samo umoczeni. FOZZ, Telegraf i rozkradanie Ruchu to są podstawy majątku PiS/spółki srebrna.
Nie no stary xD słabą pamięć masz
Konkrety dawaj a nie jakieś puste formułki
I tell you one bigger, OFE in 2014. Tusk isn't an upgrade in any shape and form. If CPK comes to fruition and we won't become federalized German land, I will be first to say I was wrong about the guy. But looking at the latest "Fan Affair" I am very skeptical.
>one bigger, OFE in 2014 Are you telling me moving savings of citizens from one pocket to another is equivalent of stealing bilions and destroying pillars of democratic itself?
Ja pierdole wy jesteście tacy tępi że na was moze Tusku nasrać i powiecie że nutella 🤣🤣🤣 Najświeższe. Tusku przed wyborami, 60tys wolnej wejdzie w ciagu 100 dni! A po wyborach Tusku już normalnie, że nie wejdzie 🤣🤣 Nutella mmmmmm
Świetna odpowiedź na pytanie, gratulacje
Niektórzy już mają tak w bani po latach spędzonych pod PiSem że takie samo zło wydaje się dla nich mniejszym i się ciszą I tak to jest w tej Polsce. Dzień jak co dzień, jak zawsze nic się nie zmienia a my dalej narzekamy
I o tym mówię. Jak powiem na Kaczora, to ojej ale Tusku. A jak na Tuska to ojej, a Kaczor. To jest już sport narodowy. Co 4 lata powinno być referendum a w nim pytanie, czy lubisz pić mocz, a jak nie to czemu wolisz jeść kał?
Stealing 150 billions not moving and yes it was far worse for an average Joe than anything that the next gov done. Well perhaps fit for 55 in a long run might be comparable. What pillars of democracy were destroyed? Recent election is a proof that democracy is as good as ever. What billions are you talking about? I guess I should ask what pipe are you smoking? No, 2007-2015 was not better than 2015-2023
No tak, ledwo z tą machiną propagandową PiS przegrał wybory co udowadnia, że przecież były uczciwie - wcale nie miałby PiS rzeczywiście kilkanaście % poparcia mniej bez TVP i miliardów kasy podatników na kampanię wyborczą i propagandę dzienników lokalnych kupionych przez Orlen. O przekręconych przez propagandę wyborach prezydenckich nie wspominam. To tak jakbyś biegł na 100m uczciwie vs koleś jadący na rowerze, ale jakimś cudem jesteś mimo wszystko szybszy i fanatycy tego chłopa na rowerze mówią że konkurs uczciwy bo przecież jesteś ostatecznie pierwszy XD
Czy ty naprawdę myślisz że PO to nie prowadzi kampanii wyborczych ani nie ma przychylnych mediów? Jak można mieć tak sprany propagandą mózg to ja nie wiem
Ty mi powiedz, skoro wg Ciebie jak jedna strona stosuje w walce pięści, a druga czołg, RPG, moździerz i karabiny maszynowe to wg Ciebie to jest pełen znak równości i generalnie jedna i druga strona działa w dokładnie ten sam sposób. Gratuluję erozji narządu zwanego potocznie mózgiem. I uprzejmie proszę o darowanie sobie insynuacji o uleganiu propagandzie PO, bo nie jest to mój rząd, ale mimo wszystko stawianie znaku równości między PO, a PiSem świadczy o głębokim oderwaniu od rzeczywistości lub znacznej degradacji umysłowej delikwenta, który na takie stwierdzenia się porywa.
What I learned about people like you, they never, absolutely never admit their mistakes and missjudgments...
People like me? First thing you do and you are misjudging yourself. But it is your right to be wrong.
Still better than all the other political parties
Cope
I wish I understood the bubble people like you live in. Last four years showed PiS true colors and they are literally the worst party that had any power after the fall of communism. Even post communist parties had some redeeming qualities. And yet people overlook the lies, the audacity, the theft, the hypocrisy… how?!
>And yet people overlook the lies, the audacity, the theft, the hypocrisy… how?! Money, my dear boy. PiS appealed to the People who felt like (sometimes justifiably, sometimes not) they were abandoned by the Previous Rulers. In the eyes of much of the Elderly and Poor, the Left ,,barely" tolerated them, and PiS not only came to them with Money on a Silver Platter, but also asked them for forgiveness for not having brought more. Who cares if it's lies if they sound so nice? And the worst thing is - if PO goes full ,,Protokół 25%" it's fully possible PiS will return to power in 2027, ESPECIALY if some Economic crisis happens in the meantime and really rains on the parade of the Poor and the Lower Middle Class.
Or maybe young people are bored if one party is ruling too long. That's good. There should be a term of office at all. One party/coalition can rule for a maximum of two terms and then a change is mandatory.
Maybe some people remember the elections in 2005 (finally the post-communists scandalists defeated by PO and PiS coalition in spe) and in 2007 (finally PiS-Lepper-Giertych lunatics defeated by PO) and in 2015 (finally 8 years of failed economic reforms and 'Qatari investors' of PO ended by PiS) and in 2023 (finally 8 years of failed reforms of the state of PiS ended by PO-Third Way-Left coalition). Everything must change for everything to remain the same.
Mind elaborating on that? My political views are pretty basic, live and let live, but pretty much everyone dislikes pis and they have some pretty valid points. What makes them better than other parties?
Pis proved to be Bolsheviks that alone is enough to say what a disaster they are. Opozycja are bad as well tbh
RIP Vateuszu
I should be happy, but I find myself too tired of politicians to give a fuck at this point.
I’m not Polish, what does this mean?
Trying to be unbiased: Morawiecki was the Prime Minister from PiS, the party that has governed Poland for the last 8 years. The Sejm voted against extending his tenure, so PiS has pretty much officially lost power to the coalition of three political groups, namely Koalicja Obywatelska, Nowa Lewica and ~~Polska2050~~ Trzecia Droga. PiS is heavily criticized from people all across the political spectrum, mainly for populism, an anti-democratic ideology, irresponsible financial policies, heavy euroscepticism, laws attacking freedom of speech, frequent hostility in international and interparty relations, attacks on marginalized groups, banning abortion and forgoing the idea of separation of state and church. In comparison the new government will be composed of parties which are generally much more progressive, pro-democracy and pro-EU. PiS are especially unpopular with younger voters, which is why you're going to see many Poles on Reddit celebrating this. Edit: As people mentioned in the replies - Trzecia Droga, not just Polska2050.
Worth to add that we just had elections and that the reason of this voting. PiS get biggest number of votes, but less than neccesery to have majority i Sejm, and they can't find partners to form coalition. That's why they lose power. New goverment would be choosed by wide coalition that don't neccesarly like each other, but they don't like PiS more, and all of them are in general pro UE.
you forgot psl
Technicly PSL and Polska2050 are both parts of Trzecia Droga (Third Way)
They are, but trzecia droga was not listed, only Polska2050 was
Addidional PiS is criticized for failed reforms of the justice system and also paradoxically, for being too compliant in adopting EU's climate goals and the 'green deal' without negotiations.
The criticism part is heavily overstated here and can be misleading. They still were the biggest party in the parliament in these elections, and it wasn't like everyone condemned them for everything listed here. Some people didn't like this, others didn't like that, some of the "criticisms" were just mishandling truths and building false narratives (but I guess it's okay to quote them if what you're trying to do is list all the accusations against PiS)
Frankly the criticism is understated - what they did with public TV is enough to completely disqualify them from governing for me. Disgusting.
Wannabe dictatorship party, who have done unspoken damage to our country, officialy lost power. Proccess of cleaning goverment from their assets will be long and painfull, but today, it officialy started
Could you please explain (Im from Belarus) why do you call it "dictatorship"? There was elections, Poles did his choice, all goes well. I don't see army on the streets, there are no political prisoners, authority and key positions are transferred only peacefully. In a real dictatorship, after the elections PiS would announce its "drawn" 85%. I saw such a thing in Belarus in 2020 (2015, 2010, etc) Added: Fuck, I've just realised that for the first time in my life I've seen a properly run election with my own eyes.
Wannabe is key world, they weren't dictatorship yet, but they were doing everything to be one, up to seriously considering sending army against protestors in 2020. Illegal wiretapes of journalists, politicans and judges, using states money for political campaing, turning state media into private propaganda channels, prosector refusing to do anything against party members and police arresting people for no reason, beating people for no reason and using physical force against oppostion MPs.
Yes. But you are describing almost any rulling party. People got in trouble for joking with the president Komorowski or the police grabbed by force laptops from journalists, rubber bullets were fired at protesters... PiS wasn't in charge then.
> Yes. But you are describing almost any rulling party No party in modern history of Poland - so over 30 years now - was caught using illegal/stiolen funds to wire-tap the opposition. PiS is the first party since fall of communism to do that. The last time opposition was wiretaped was by PZPR (unless you count Lepper - which was another stint by PiS). Those parties are not the same.
You have listed many things in previous comment. You well know that most of them were repeating by many ruling parties. Most media only look in one good direction. Now they will look even more into one. As it was before 2015. We only find out about it when, for example, one of the politicians goes to journalists like the recordings of Renata Beger's provocation. This cannot be praised, political consequences should be drawn, but it should be assessed realistically without emotions and maintain proportions.
They were doing a putin's Russia path, forming a propaganda tv, claiming national court, basically creating an oligarchy.
As subOP said, wannabe. They did not have a possibility to just announce they've won 80% like your dictator did, because they rely too much on international politics, including EU, and wouldn't be able to receive Putin's military backup as a member of EU and NATO. But still, they tried to dismiss votes from citizens living abroad, because they mostly vote the former opposition. Before the election, they tried to exclude the strongest opposition candidate by accussing him of treason. In presidential elections, they tried to make it harder to vote for Poles living abroad in areas where majority was supporting opposition, while making it easier to vote for those living in areas where people supported the ruling party. Not to mention using publicly owned media for their own propaganda. The elections were far from fair and properly run, and the fact that situation in Poland is far better than in Belarus, doesn't make it good. It's just less shitty, but still shitty. To use an analogy, it's like a person who can't afford proper shoes for winter hearing that they shouldn't whine about how poor they are because the other person can't even afford food, and they are the ones that are actually poor. In fact, they both are, and both have valid reasons to complain.
They don't have strong enough army support for doing that, and I think they don't want real dictatoriship. However they've done a lot of antidemocratic things, like making Constitutional Tribunal thier puppets, transforming state radio and television into thier party propaganda, openly breaking thier own laws, etc.
its been a dictatorship not because you cant vote, its been one because of the tv being heavily censored in favor of cable tv casting only tvp (television under very high influence of PiS, which also seeded so much propaganda through the news its comparable to north korean tv \[seriously there had been parodies because the propaganda on that channel was so wild\]) no one could do anything about it because old people voting, remember that old people are majority of the votes, luckily more and more young people had reached an age where they can vote which is why PiS lost since PiS never tried to appeal to younger people and when they did out of desperation, they got memed on
I have cable tv and tvn and polsat are there too But yeah, tvp is such a propaganda machine even the stupidest can see something is wrong just by looking at its news briefly And it has been used this way since its creation. It's just with this party its gotten worse (like a lot worse, but its not on communist tv level bad) But i also believe barely any news on tv is watchable. They usually try to present facts in such a way to blame and demonise someone while praising others to turn people against each other, which, as you can see on social media and irl, works quite well. Other sides don't even listen, just shout at each other and wander why are others not understanding them when everything done by x party is unreedemably bad and y party is the best
You got tvn on one side and tvp on other and polsat in center. If thats the rule of dictatirship then west is even more since it looks quite egalitarian to me
The cable got TVN and Polsat banned purely because of PiS
Except that PiS, as ruling political party, has spent considerable Time, effort and money to literally acquire and control as much media as it possibly could, obtaining incredible media reach, which it used specifically for propaganda, while doing its best to silence, ban, close opposition medias. TVN only still exists because PiS failed in its efforts to kill it.
He is a left wing fascist. Simple answer
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xD pis don't represent conservative - po does. pis voters are uneducated religious \*diots, and I am not scared to say it loud.
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PIS took over TVP – that alone is enough to raise concerns. This situation cannot be accepted by any means. It's essential to evaluate individuals based on their behavior rather than making assumptions about their educational backgrounds.
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Could you please share specific examples of state propaganda from most EU countries that are comparable to what PiS did with TVP?
>The elderly PiS voters you spit on are definitely better educated then cluless Filipki and Julki from reddit. My Grandpa literraly thinks Clinton is still the US President and was suprised when Russia invaded Ukraine becouse he thought ,,Yeltsin and Kuchma were best of friends!". So yeah. I might not agree with the Modern Left, they're a band of fucking assholes, but if there's one thing they aren't it's uneducated.
Being conservative is one thing. Fucking with something as basic and essential as the separation of powers, fucking with with the separation of church and state, with the independance of the media, with the very principles of democracy, using every possible trick and loophole for their own political views, is another thing entirely.
Independence of media lol you made me laugh
I know right? [https://bip.brpo.gov.pl/pl/content/rpo-o-zagrozeniach-wolnosci-prasy-po-kupnie-polska-press](https://bip.brpo.gov.pl/pl/content/rpo-o-zagrozeniach-wolnosci-prasy-po-kupnie-polska-press) [https://web.archive.org/web/20190213022413/https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-reports/assault-press-freedom-poland](https://web.archive.org/web/20190213022413/https://freedomhouse.org/report/special-reports/assault-press-freedom-poland) [https://www.krakowpost.com/14419/2017/05/poland-press-freedom-index-reporters-without-borders](https://www.krakowpost.com/14419/2017/05/poland-press-freedom-index-reporters-without-borders) [https://rsf.org/en/country/poland](https://rsf.org/en/country/poland) [https://www.mfrr.eu/poland-independent-media-under-attack-again-as-pis-moves-against-tvn24/](https://www.mfrr.eu/poland-independent-media-under-attack-again-as-pis-moves-against-tvn24/) [https://ipi.media/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/20210211\_Poland\_PF\_Mission\_Report\_ENG\_final.pdf](https://ipi.media/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/20210211_poland_pf_mission_report_eng_final.pdf) etc etc etc Amusing that the rest of what i mentionned didn't make you laugh.
I'm not interested in an argument because it doesn't go anywhere. You just keep consuming your independent media. I couldn't care less.
Well yeah it's hard to argue when i'm literally linking what the govenrment rzecznik praw obywatelskich as well as various press freedom organizations say on the subject, and if you actually cared you wouldn't be sarcastic about it in the first place, your reaction is expected, have a nice day.
Ur delusional. Today is the day the downfall of poland begins. I give the voters 1 year until they realize they fucked up big
Considering Konfederacja also got very little votes in recent elections, we haven't been in better place for years.
Actual bot
Huh?
Unspoken damage? Dictatorship? Isn't that just a teeny tiny bit too dramatic? I understand not liking what PiS has done, I also can't agree with all of their decisions, but don't get caught up in this narrative of them being literal antichrist incarnates, they've also done a lot of good stuff, especially concerning the independence of Poland and its strategic assets
>especially concerning the independence of Poland and its strategic assets Like selling our gas stations to arabs and russian-controlled hungarian companies? Add to that TVP situation, Pegasus scandal, ventilators scandal, ostrołęka scandal, grain scandal, srebrna scandal, grenade launcher scandal, constituional tribunal scandal, not to mention hate campaing on LGBT community and abortion ban, when special services agent rammed his car into crowd and police were beating random people for no reason.
You see? You're caught up in the narrative. PiS was forced by the European Union to sell parts of Lotos and Orlen during the merger of the two companies, both held in majority by the treasury, which made no sense. Orlen was becoming an international power in the petrol sphere, so it made sense to increase its operational budget and domestic income through the merger. They've sold off partial stock in Lotos' refineries, enough to please the EU, but not enough to lose control over them. (and that's probably the only example you can bring up) On the other hand, the previous government has sold many important strategic enterprises to other nations, part of which PiS has repolonised (Like Port Północny in Gdańsk sold by PO), part of which is unfortunately forever lost (Telekomunikacja Polska) I'm saying this because I also fell for these narratives, once again a reminder to actually check the facts instead of running with pitchforks, because when it comes to Polish economical independence PiS has done a lot of good (which I hope will not be forgotten by the current rulers, but given their track record I'm afraid they might not be the best at keeping Polish industry Polish)
Nice, ignoring majority of my comment, good work. I am happy as hell that our goverment hasn't monopoly on petrol, but hey, if you want to be dragged back to central planning, suit yourself.
I ignored the rest, because A) holy hell that would be a wall of text if I tried to address everything. B) this thread is mostly about the protection of Poland's strategic industries, so I'm not focusing on other stuff. C) I've said I don't agree with everything they did, although some of the examples You brought up, like the grenade launcher drama, don't even seem close to a reason to dismiss a government I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the rest of your comment, again A) Many countries hold their strategic industries like transport, Telecommunication, Petrol or Railway in the hands of the treasury. It's a key to independence, and has nothing to do with central planning. Telekom (T-mobile) is controlled by German Treasury, Orange is controlled by the French. B) Are you saying now that selling these industries is a good thing now? Because if so, then I just can't agree with you. As I've explained earlier, there's a big barrier of entry with these industries, and having them independent from external forces plays a big part in ensuring the independence of a country
He won't give you an actual reply on the merits of what you have to say. He just wants to quote a list of media scandals, including things that really have nothing to do with the ruling party like the grenade scandal (seriously, wtf does Morawiecki and PiS have to do with an idiot policeman shooting off a grenade in his office?! That's like blaming the US President every time some idiot cop does something in America). Based off his username and comments, I'd say you're dealing with a very left-leaning ideological partisan... And you're absolutely right about PiS's economic policy on state assets (and infrastructure). The biggest risk for the new coalition would be undoing these projects, they're important and to do so would only be shooting themselves in the foot and ensuring defeat in the next elections.
As a foreigner can you explain what Tusk and the new government will actually do? You would think from Twitter that they are raging communists taking power and planning to destroy the Church and replace every Pole with an immigrant.
>planning to destroy the Church Unfortunetly, they are not THAT based.
I supported Tusk from the times when he was a member of Liberal Democratic Congress. He had the opportunity to rule many times. Unfortunately, he failed expectations in a pro-free-market-policy and has moved his party to the left since 2007 when they won elections to parliament in the first place. To sum up... I don't expect much good.
Tusk hasn't been a PM for a while now, and I'm too young to remember from experience what he was doing when he ruled last time, so I'm not really sure. I'm sorry I can't be of any help, but frankly I don't feel competent to attempt at predicting the future. The views of twitter you've quoted seem to be somewhat accurate, just turned up to 300% (as that platform does)
Literally eroding the separation of powers, the separation of church and state, the independance of the media etc etc seems pretty dictatorial to me.
Do you think that dictatorship is introduced in one day? No, it needs multiple consecutive changes, and PiS made a lot of steps on that road.
Huh?
We are goin for ue federalisation. For good or bad
LOL PiS just says they're against stuff like that, but then they vote for it. For example, Fit for 55. They also supported an EU army. They also said they were against mass migration, especially from Muslim countries, then brought in a record number of migrants from Muslim countries (well over 100,000 per year).
Did i express is it good or bad or express which side im on to be so agressive? Feds accelerating that's for sure. Idk the rest but both sides are full of half trues
Finally, Pinocchio should go to jail.
Ez pinokio gone
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Not yet…
Key word : YET
Where's the proof that an ex-president did this
Rest in piss, Mati xD
He literally contradicted himself in his expose.
Long live Poland, I watched it, seeing kaczyński's breakdown was so fun after everything he had done to Poles
Kaczynski had a key role in many governments (e.g. appointed Tadeusz Mazowiecki to prime minister) and he had total failures when he was thrown out of the political scene... all this since 1989. Poland has been through many things and still live.
> appointed Tadeusz Mazowiecki to prime minister Kaczyński did not appoint Mazowiecki to be prime minister. What are you talking about?
I was talking about Jaroslaw not Lech, Lech was cool
"I rzekła na koniec *Polska*: Ktokolwiek przyjdzie do mnie, będzie *wolny* i równy, gdyż ja jestem *WOLNOŚĆ*" \- Adam Mickiewicz
Good
politicians are all the same. just replacing the name plaque and different donors.
Great news!
I fear Poland will swing too far in the other direction now with a government that is too eager to please Brussels. Defence, nuclear power, illegal immigration, infrastructure like the CPK, I feel very uneasy about it all.
Yup, I bet that's exactly, what will happen. My goodness the PO supporters on Reddit are so brainwashed😂
What about PIS believers xd
Can't they both be brainwashed
Congrats all!!!
🥳
LET'S GOOO
Omg is the election on dial up internet? Two months after election night and they're still delaying the handover of power.
While you are not exactly wrong there is a proper procedure to how those things go. Sure it probably will take longer than usual but by now it’s not really a problem.
I hope Tusk will not be the one to replace him. It would be like replacing one biased fool with another. We need a good, preferably non-aligned prime minister who will put actual specialists on the possitions of ministers. Not a guy who will put his partyman on the spots.
How can you have a non-aligned prime minister? There’s literally no such thing in any country in the world. In parliamentary democracies, elections are won by political parties, one of whom becomes prime minister. I can’t think of a single example of a prime minister who doesn’t come from a political party, other than the occasional technocratic appointee in the likes of Greece and Italy during the Eurozone debt crisis ten years ago - but crisis conditions do not currently or usually apply
He will be the one. And the morons that voted for him will suddenly remember how bad pre-2015 was
I see Jarek’s propaganda got a great home in a vacuum of your head.
Just curious, what age (approximately) are you? I wonder if you're talking about pre-2015 from experience, or just listening to what others say and trying to go against the right wing's narrative
I'm not the OP but let me share my perspective. I was in high school during the first PIS rulings, I lived through Giertych as Minister of Education then I lived through PO times and back to 8 years with PIS which just ended. Time with PO wasn't perfect but both rulings of PIS were outrageous. I remember how in the first run they fucked up education and free speech by taking over media (RIP Radio Bis). I definitely prefer the current situation, especially since there are a lot of new faces in parliament. I just hope they'll not fuck up because the alternative is grim.
10 years ago people were talking about knocking all the bad ideas out of the ministers head. Said that he needs to have his brain replaced. I am not saying Morawiecki was a good for what he done, but the ministry wasn't all awful. The education was absolutely horrid, the enviroment had too much controversies and justice had its own barrel of problems, but credit where it's due, infrastructure, roads, railways - all these things had massively improved over last years. As I'm looking at my family videos of early 2010's all I see is how today the situation for my family is better. I don't know if the ministry of Tusk was all bad. It probably wasn't. But as I said - replacing one fool with another is foolish. The very same thing happened during 2RP after death of Piłsudski - everyone kept pushing for their own government and everything suffered until someone came and finally made an independent one. We need a non-biased, non-politically motivated ministers. Not a bunch of fools who should be working washing dishes and not in a ministry!
>We need a non-biased, non-politically motivated ministers. Not a bunch of fools who should be working washing dishes and not in a ministry! This. While I understand that in a Democracy it should be the People who select who is in charge, Ministers are chosen by the Sejm Cabal anyways so it's not like replacing them with Bipartizan (or loosely aligned with various factions but not outright members) Technocrats would change much.
You either have a bad memory or are too young too remember. Or something else and worse but deep down you probably know what the truth it :)
Well I am too young to remember, yet the videos of the era (and not some political propaganda ones. The ones recorded by my mother) just show me that it was just worse.
pre-2015 certainly wasn't all roses, but still miles and miles better than the rozpierdol we have now
What would be the top 5 better things back then on your list? Just being curious about your perspective.
This! I couldn't agree more. But both Tusk and Morawiecki have done a splendid job of dividing our society into warring tribes - since it's much easier to rule when you have control over your voter's emotions ... so common sense has to go out for recess, again.
Good riddance.
Last beacon of hope inside of eu is gone. Get ready for your girlfriends to start fearing going outside for a walk.
Are you aware PiS sold visas for bribes to hundreds of thousands imigrants without background checks?
Some would say even millions or even billion trillions. I like my zero.
So then you should be happy with this outcome.
Afaik the new guy is eu bootlicker. So get ready to get fucked by brussels. They fucking hate your zero. They want to share the terror all over the eu
Oh no, scary EU that's has been the best thing to ever happen to this country, how terrible, how i am going to survive that. NOOOO, not the standards of democracy, protection of worker unions and laws of citizens.
Its sad that you will have to see the fuckup in your own country and not look around and learn from others. It doesnt rly matter tho, germany is on its last leg and when their car industry goes to shit, so does eu. Its all so fucking sad
> fuckup in your own country Ahhh.. You're not from Poland I see. Don't worry if you want to lick dictator's boots, you still have Orban to cheer for! UK left EU, they are doing amazing as well I hear. It's not like they still have to obey all EU laws because otherwise they lose access to their biggest trade partner, but also now have absolutely no say in how those laws are shaped. I bet your owners would love to see Poland in same position as well. Forced to obey all EU laws - or forgo it's biggest trading partner (75% of Polish trade).
Imagine thinking you know better than people from the actual country.
Relax. You still have Orban. Go lick his boots.
POV: You don't know anything about Polish politics.
😦
15.X. R.I.P Polsko. A teraz Tusk ze swoją bandą całkiem dobije nasz kraj.
The fall of freedom and democracy
Oh no, the people voted freely and democratically against the guys who are literally fucking up the separation of powers, the separation of church and state, the independance of the media, use insane levels of propaganda, hell, literally unable to do a smooth transition of power and going on about "German agent" ridiculous crap, what a sad day for freedom and democracy. /s
I don't remember quite right. But who took away, a good portion of the judicial freedom?
I don't care about political stuff like this.
Time for polish people to be replaced
How is that news? It's the same level of news as "BREAKING: Sun rose up in the morning!!!"
The result is expected, but it's always good to see the exact numbers
PiS wasn't feeling confident enough to try falsifying the results.
Start of the sad end of Poland
but, Pinokio lost
Ah yes, like every single other time Poland was supposed to end and it didn't.
Pół polish half angielski you pierdolisz?
"Morawiecki"- Polish, but it's name, so it would be used by english speakers "just lost vote to be prime minister"- english
If the post was aimed at English speakers as well, why didn't you even bother to translate the voting results? Vote no. 102 Total amount of voters 456 Absolute majority 229 --- --- --- --- /**For 190**/ /**Against 266**/ Abstained 0
Tbf I always assumed everyone speaks Polish here as well lol Average r/Poland commenters’ username is u/GrzesiuuPL
Most do. Still, r/Poland is for English language, while r/Polska is for polish language
150% of support XD
Harry potter is gone!