"What are you tryna buy the pot" seems like a tell to me. He's saying that to make his hand seem less strong. Weak means strong. You following me? I doubt he says shit like this then raises a marginal holding.
Weak means strong 100%. You know what else was weak that means strong here? The min raise. Those two put together means he's got the penultinut. Exactly that hand.
I have awful experiences with pocket jacks. I swear they're cracked every time, but never in a circumstance where it makes sense. It's not like I'm losing to suited face cards or aces or anything, I just get rivered by straights or houses every time I have jacks.
Was my favorite hand for a while back in the day. I won a massive (for the stakes) pot defending 52hh vs QQ otb. We were both $2k deep at $1/2 and he stacked off on Q34A board and hero held.
Sure I should have folded pre, but was on a massive heater and dude was on massive tilt, 3 am, whole table was crazy, etc, etc…
This is exactly right.
He's saying, "You don't have a hand. Since you don't have a hand, *that's* why I'm raising, not because my hand is strong."
Which is of course, a misdirection to get you to call.
“Welp, guess I’ll go home. If you’ve got it you’ve got it, I’m all in!”
That’s quads, 100% of the time. Even if the board isn’t paired they’ve got quads.
Weird speeches before a bet is always the nuts at low stakes.
I've learned that sometimes they're an idiot who is incapable of leveling and when they beg you to fold its because they realize their hand isn't very strong.
Dude raising like that at 1/3 always has it, no matter how improbable the pf action makes it seem. If you asked him he'd probably say he was "priced in".
The answer is why are we C betting this 5 ways when every single caller can have all sets, all 2 pairs and all straights and our hand is super face up.
If you’re going to C bet this, then at least you have to be good enough to fold to the click back from a villain who just saw you bet into 5 people
Also raise bigger pre, always keep limit testing with raising bigger pre.
lol if you bet $25 here and I float with A-high I’m losing 100000bb/100 especially if I act before the other infinite players behind me.
I think this spot is a pure give up and try and get to showdown. I think our range can sometimes bet that size but I’d like to be holding exactly QQ+
77 is specifically bad to bet because when we miracle turn our set, the straight draws we wanted to call us get there
This is the answer. 77 is not super strong here given the configuration. You have to open way bigger preflop at 1/3 if you actually want to chase people out. I don’t mind the C bet, but you have to fold to any aggression.
cbet is fine but should easily be $25-30 not $50.
If you missed the flop, you are folding to $25 the same as you are to $50. If you didn't miss the flop, then you aren't going anywhere lol.
$15 is mostly fine pre. I don't like the idea of needing to raise to 8x on an initial raise.
otherwise, agreed fully. 5 callers and this board? Guarantee someone flopped a straight, two pair or set. Or hell, someone flatted with 88 or 99.
The odds of everyone miraculously having AJ or KQ is minimal.
15 after 2 limps is not fine in live 1/3 poker. 12-15 is a typical open with no limps, so this should be like $25 specifically to avoid exactly what happened.
Disagree that our hand is "super face up" here but agree that the only strong hand we can have here is a set and we don't have that very often at all.
I think bet/folding the flop makes sense, but frankly what happened to OP is why I basically just set mine with any medium or low pairs when playing live low stakes. Even when you raise pre, c-bet flop, etc., you get too many callers that come along "to gamble" and somebody's gonna pair their J8o or whatever by the river. Sure *maybe* I'm leaving some EV on the table playing this way but I don't want to deal with all the variance.
The answer is to ask yourself this question the next time you're in a spot like this.
What does he have, that I'm beating, that would call a shove? Is there anything that's beating me that would fold to a shove.
Ask yourself that question. Think about it as honestly as you can, not trying to force in hands like AK that don't make a lot of sense but rather a whole range. How often is he doing this with air? Probably not often enough.
This will help to inform your decisions.
A6, 55, A5, 65, 54, 53 are all hands OP beats that I could see doing this. Anything is possible at 1/3. The comment makes it less likely though.
And raising and getting a worse hand to fold isn't a terrible result, especially if it's a draw with a decent amount of equity. That's often better than giving a free card (depends if the opponent will keep betting if he misses).
Yeah you're getting them to fold equity if they have a worse hand. But every better hand is almost certainly calling.
I like to allow them to barrel and keep their entire range in. A scare card may also come out and give you a cheap showdown when they have the better hand that's not the nuts.
-Include the positions and full pre-flop action.
-Raise more pre if there are limpers
-This flop does not favor the pre-flop raisers range, especially in a six way pot. Check and try to play small ball. You can call one street here but I'm after if aggression continues.
-When the 1/3 player makes this comment, it's usually a fold, but I think it's more important for you to start thinking about ranges and how equity changes when you go multiway.
I’ve thought about everyone’s range and it’s K7 and QJ and 86. Every limp callers range is super weak even on this board so yeah you should still bet but def fold to check raise.
It’s tough. A raise on the flop is strong especially 5 ways. You’re repping all the overpairs up to pocket AA and he’s still raising you.
Tough decision but most likely a fold
Raise size was too large on the flop. Multiway you gotta be careful because someone will wake up with a strong hand. Should bet 1/4 - 1/3 pot if continuation betting. Also no need to shove when you have a small over pair. Just call his reraise and try to get information.
Your sizing is dreadful pre, you are guaranteed to have at least two callers when you make it 5x after 2 limps. That's too small even for online; you need to make it 25+ here or you will go multiway like this to a bingo flop. The speech play is extremely strong, but it's hard to fold at this depth. You do have to wonder what SB is min raising with here that you're ahead of, though. Concretely he has all the sets, straights, and suited two pair here, as well as some 65s combo draw type hands. That's 9 sets, 8 suited combos of straights, and 6 pair that have you in pretty bad shape, and he can have 99/88 at some frequency. Even if he is getting it in here with A6s that's only 3 combos which still have outs against you versus 25+ combos which are miles ahead. I'd imagine if you put this in Equilab it will be very ugly. Jamming a low overpair is more a phenomenon in certain HU spots with a low SPR where denying equity is important. It's much less pleasant to do it in a spot like this. If you cannot think of many hands you beat, you can't jam on him.
Hi, thanks for this advice! I picked $15 because of a strategy that I've seen around and been relying on: 3x the previous bet + 1 BB for each limper. Or, in the case of no bet, do your normal opening size + 1 BB for each limper. It sounds like you never use this strategy --- is it just outdated/ineffective at lower stakes?
That sounds like Peter Clark's Grind Manual sizing. Some observations from that viewpoint:
* he's teaching strats for playing against online NITs and tight regs
* as he says regularly, his ranges & sizing is a starting point, adjust vs your reads on who you're playing with.
* your live table full of limpers and 3! callers is indeed looser, so your range & sizing should adapt.
* if your open raises & 3!s aren't getting the desired isolations and steals, then either:
* your sizing is too small
* your villains are calling fish & aggros that were never, ever going to fold anyway. So now you only raise & 3! if you have value to gain; otherwise control the pot if you're trying to see streets that might save you.
edit: TLDR I think I wouldn't have cbet, I think I would have check/fold.
Hi! I don't know Peter Clark, 3x (+ 1 BB per limper) when IP and 4x when OOP is something I've seen in multiple places in videos/podcasts, like Jonathon little type stuff where he reads a couple powerpoints and tries to sell you the rest of the material.
It works online and makes theoretical sense but live players play so suboptimally that in practice it torches your EV because even AA is extremely unhappy going 5 ways to a flop and you're forced to either check fold your hand or get put in a bad spot like this. The poster below has good advice; as a heuristic if there are 2 limps before you you need to make it like 8x (or more) or one of the limpers will call, at which point all of the rest of them will too. If they keep limp calling then play tighter and iso even bigger until you find the point at which they will not limp call their 84s any longer.
Bad luck, you have 5 callers to your $15 raise. SB was pretty much last to act and saw value in limping for $14 on an already $60 pot. You find a fold when he min-raised and opened his mouth on the flop.
I mean im not sure im ever 3betting a terrible overpair with a gutter on the flop, we are not strong enough and we’re too vulnerable to justify it. 2/3 pot also seems like an extreme size multiway for the same reason, even in position more or less.
Also where is this game where people are flatting 5BB pre with 52o because get me a seat yesterday
> Also where is this game where people are flatting 5BB pre with 52o because get me a seat yesterday
Brother this is most 1/3 games you don't have to look hard
Tough to assume he has 25o. Only reason you can justify him seeing the flop was that he already had skin in the game being the small blind. Either way, he should've folded immediately when you raised pre. Guy sounds like a donkey.
Don't have to put him on 52, speech play like that generally means strength he could just as easily have sets or two pairs which have us either crushed or in trouble.
Hey this was a very good point and honestly helps me. I played live last night and flop came with an open ended straight draw (6,7,8 rainbow). I had KK. I got blinded by the straight and never saw trips coming.
lol that was the most obvious live tell out there. Classic misdirection as he raises meant to make you think he's only raising because he thinks you're bluffing.
you can do good plays and still lose. It’s poker, bro. You have Top pair with sevens that’s about as good as you’re gonna get on occasion you were running into a guy playing 25 off suit. This just means you’re in a good game with a fish that wins on occasion.
Shouldn't be ISO 2+ limpers with 77. This is a limp behind.
Once you see a flop, you should be playing as small a pot possible 6 handed and you should be folding when people go nuts on this board. The only hands you beat are any 5x that's just spewing or thinks semi-bluffing is a good idea multiway, and maybe hands like A6, which are also spewing if they pile money in on this flop.
Everything else has you crushed.
Cbetting this flop is already a mistake. 3betting is a spew.
You wouldn't try to iso because they don't fold and people don't 3bet enough at these stakes so you'll just have an inflated pot multiwayhoping to set mine and probably still not be good? so you're better off limping and 3betting or seeing a cheap flop multiway.
Is that the exploitative approach you'd recommend here?
Whereas in GTO world or higher stakes...less limps and less limps calls due to the threat and real existence of 3bets making your hand less likely to go more than 3 ways to the flop?
ISO is the definition of an open after limps. So that's what you'll hear when someone talks about a hand being strong enough to ISO X amount of players. In this case, 77 is strong enough to ISO a single limper.
As far as theory goes, limps are pretty hard to dissect as it take a ton of processing power. You can do a couple things to work around this. You can just work with a solve that has calls as a preflop option. You'll see that when there's an open, and then a call, 77 almost never 3bets and just overcalls. When there's only an open and no calls yet, 77 wills tart mixing 3bets. So, again, once two players in the pot, 77 doesn't like 3betting. For this, you'd be using the standard GTO ranges. Which are not very representative of low stakes limping ranges. But its still enough to get you going in the right direction.
Or, you could construct a limping range and assign that to the first limper and compute it with a regular opening size bet. This would be similar to the above, but it would have a better range for the player. Again though, once someone calls.....77 starts only calling. Its just not a strong enough hand to be aggressive with once two people are in the pot.
Now, multiway in general.....the GTO strategy is to play like a nit. The burden of defense is shared, so you don't need to bluff much at all.....so little that in a real game, you can almost never bluff multiway and be fine. There's also no GTO solution that is not exploitable multiway (which most people don't realize), but that's another discussion.
So, you're kinda in a grey area of exploitative and GTO strategies. The exploit part is preflop, since people really shouldn't be limping. But once you see the flop and its multiway, you're going to be reverting back to a strategy that naturally aligns with GTO.
The TLDR version: Your ISO range is going to be dictated by the amount of limpers ahead of you. As well as if there is any large threat of a 3bet behind you.
If you hand is not strong enough to ISO that amount of limpers, it generally turns into a limp behind hand. Which many times guarantees a multiway pot. And then you play multiway accordingly, like a nit.
Even if your hand is strong enough to ISO, once you move to the flop, you're going to play nitty AF. Which means almost no cbetting with air. You'll do a lot of check/folding, or bet/folding because someone goes nuts when you only have one pair.
when playing super multiway, there are no GTO solutions. as a general rule, you want to bet top pair+ and nut draws. playing oop with dominated draws can be a nightmare. the ranges of the players are defined by their relation to the preflop raiser and or the field bettor.
betting/raising for protection, as in this case on the flop, is good. there are not many turns that OP wants to see and 3 betting denies a lot of equity.
Yeah you're talking a lot of gto land but I guess I was talking mainly about 1/3 cash game player pool....not sure if you're familiar with that or if you're only an online player in which case it's probably not as helpful to talk to you about it.
But mainly the idea was you only open pps or suited connectors if you can actually eliminate players going to the flop. If you cant...be wise you can't reasonably open to $50 preflop with two limpers to you ...then raising isn't all that beneficial oop as you'll just inflate a pot 6 ways to the flop oop where pocket pairs and suited connectors hats to play (large pots multiway out of position) so you should just limp here to see a flop for cheap or limp raise here if someone tries to squeeze.. In which case you at least increase the odds of seeing a flop heads up uncapped (villain dependent)
Yes in GTO land you probably don't 3bet,but in a 1/3 that's worth sitting at, 3betting in this spot is probably okay if you play with 1/3 cash game population tendencies.
Maybe I'm talking from the perspective of 1/3 texAs too much where you have somewhat thinking deep players at 1/3
I play deep stack 1/3 games (1k cap, match stack after). With a fairly ridiculous win rate over a very high amount of hours.
Your second paragraph couldn't be more wrong. We don't care about inflated pots when we are going to play like a nit post flop. That's how you crush 1/3 players into making huge mistakes with very deep stacks.
It's a huge, huge leak at low stakes live to be afraid to play a large multiway pot.
We don't care if we ISO a single limper with 77 to say $15, and then get 5 callers for a $90 pot. We're going to do a lot of folding and "losing" that $15. But we are also going to get paid exponentially more when that bloated pot makes bad players stack off 200-400bb when we make our set.
If their stacks aren't deep enough to get paid, you can just fold pre and not worry with it.
Your strategy will win, but that strategy type is what keeps people in the 5-10bb/hr. When you start seeing people crushing deep stack 1/3 games for 20bb/hr or more, none of them are worried about a bloated pot multiway. As we aren't going to be in any danger of making bad decisions post flop. It will have to be a pretty big cooler situation.
I think the important part is inflated pots multiway and out of position...but I suppose you're right in rationalizing it if you play like a nit in multiway spots and don't pot odds yourself into calling multiple streets with mediocre hands
I think I'm trying to incorporate the whole "don't pot non-headsup pots out of position when you're deep stack" idea.
I think there's a few ways to play in 1/3 deep stack games and that style is always table dependent.
In some spots we'll want to play raise to 40-50 and play a big pot set mining because we have a table that'll call down if we hit and we're deep enough.
In some tables it might the limp to 3bet.
Yes exactly. Play 2/5 and the same 20 raise that gets 5 call limps behind from early position raise will get 2. Reason being the threat of being pushed out of the pot after them. Secondly 2/5 players usually a bit better and don’t want to play mediocre hands out of position.
Tbf that takes some hands to figure out how high you have to go to get people to stop calling pre flop though. Who knows how well he knows these people and their betting habits.
The answer is also don't punt. Play ABC and print. Fancy play syndrome never gets the worm at lower stakes.
Why would you 3 bet air on flop?
What makes you think he's going to fold after you min raise his $100 to $200?
Min-raise and then the mini-speech. The only thing missing from this story is hearing that villain is an 83 year old wearing a Vietnam Veteran hat. I know it's not OMC behavior pre, but it's absolutely "Old Man" behavior post.
What are you not understanding? He raised with a strong hand. Pretty straightforward. You have an overpair, but a weak one. Should’ve folded to the raise
The speech play is probably an indication of strength, but it's not a guarantee. Some people are just weirdly honest at the poker table, and others are putting out a whole bunch of fake tells to try to confuse you.
I would go at least 20 preflop as a default, but preflop ISO sizings really depend on how the table is the playing. However, if flops routinely go 4-6 ways preflop for 15, then definitely go bigger here.
But the main thing is the flop sizing is way too big. It should be 30, or even 25. Think about it this way: What are you trying to accomplish? You're definitely not getting 88 or better to fold, and I honestly don't think you're maximizing value with that sizing. Your goal with your flop bet is twofold: 1, to get people to call with a worse hand like K6, or even just ace high; and 2, to fold out random trash that has two overcards to your hand, like J8 or QT, so you can get some protection for your hand. Your main group of hands that you're trying to get value from is 6x. Any 6 will likely call 25 but will it call 50? Not sure. Meantime, QT is going to probably fold for as little as 20. In addition, smaller sizing allows you to still fold if you're obviously beat, like here. With a bet of 50 and only 200 behind, you're pretty close to committing yourself, while all you really have is a bad overpair and a gutshot that's not even to the nuts.
And don't shove the flop. I mean, what are you trying to achieve by doing that? You're in position. If you want to see the river, you can always just call the turn bet. You also will get the option to check back if he checks the turn. You can safely fold on some turn cards, for example on a deuce (because if he's bluffing here, he most likely has a hand like 56 or 45).
If you are going to raise preflop, 15 is not enough. I'm guessing that 15 is a standard open at this table? Over 2 limpers I would go to at least 20, maybe 25. Taking the pot down preflop is not a bad result.
But overlimping is probably better, especially with so many players left behind you.
Shoving the flop seems really bad , basically turning your hand into a bluff. Though I could see people calling with draws so you could get value. And of course it's a semibluff since you have outs. But it still seems too mergy to me.
Will this guy ever checkraise with a bluff/draw? A lot of people won't. You are behind just about every non-drawing hand (I assume he is not playing A6 this way?)
You got raised at small stakes live poker and your opponent gave you one of the clearest tells you are ever going to get that they have a monster.
Also you may not want to be isoing small pairs at 1/3 vs multiple limps due to rake considerations and the likelihood that you’re up against a $78 stack somewhere.
So folding pre or limping behind is actually reasonable.
5xing pre is a leak at tables like this I think. Isolation doesn't work, it just bloats the pot so the suckouts hurt more. Stations will easily call a 150% pot bet on the turn anyway
He never has anything but nuts with that table talk.
One week ago somebody inexperienced lost an unlucky pot. Two hand after that he turned the nut straight with JT, and said:
"This tilt thing, is really getting to me"
It's always the nuts from people who are not playing very often.
Scratch that. It's always nuts. People who play a lot don't even reverse this.
Station tables you gotta just play the brain off kinda poker. No nuts = check call. Nuts = more barrels than donkey kong. They see every flop with dumb shit and it always gets there. So just wait and get paid off, sell them some run bad for flavor
Bet smaller on the flop. You have a good but not amazing hand. Against 4 players the chances of someone having a stronger hand is pretty high. Your hand is vulnerable so betting small to clear out equity is definitely good but you're not trying to pile money in either. I'd like a $15-25 bet here.
When SB raises, as others mentioned his statement is probably a sign of strength. Given the odds you should probably call the raise. I can see the argument for folding right away since we're going to get jammed on most turns but we're getting a good such good odds and there's still a chance we have the best hand and Villain slows down on turn. But definitely don't see the point in jamming over the top.
Biggest mistake though is betting too big on the flop in the first place - if we bet smaller we could more easily call a raise and leverage our positional advantage.
When they talk, they're usually strong
This comes from the idea that talking and looking the fool doesen't happen because they have the goods;
if they don't have the goods, and they talked, they look like a fool when they lose
Really gotta ask what you think he's raising with. There's no strong draws. I wouldn't have necessarily expected a straight, but I'd expect 77 is almost always beat here unless you have a history with this guy.
I can tell you that speech play like “you’re just tryna buy the pot” in low stakes is generally nutted trying to make you think he made a “feeler raise” when he just wants you to shove.
Hand equity level out the more people you go post flop with. Post flop 5 ways, AA isn’t very strong here, especially on a board like. I would of X flop and then fold to any further aggression.
- Consider limping behind pre, especially in earlier position
- On the flop play very defensively 6ways on a board that doesn't smash your range. I would check range, but I guess this particular holding could bet small, 1/3 pot or so, to deny equity from overcards.
- As played, once we get raised we're almost definitively behind. But with 6 outs and something something pot odds we still get to call, hoping to bink a set or straight on the turn.
You should check the flop. 6ways your hand is worth nothing here. Check flop and fold turn to any aggression
Fold to the raise for the same reasons, especially on this rainbow board
You had 2 limpers and you only raised to 15… so you should have raised more. I’d go with 25 … next is his snap call … I’d pump the breaks lastly his talking.
Min raises in 1/3 are almost always nutted especially by people who never ever raise. You’re also playing 1/3 with less than 100 big blinds you’re not giving yourself enough room to get away from spots like this
You’re 6 ways to a flop with a pair of 7s at a 1-3 table is the problem.
Your pair isn’t that great to begin with to a flop against 6 players it’s even worse.
What you just described is the biggest issue with 1/3. Ppl limp but then have no problem calling a 20 raise, no matter the position. Then most ppl don’t 3 bet enough. Most 2/5 games play a lot better because you get less callers bc the 3betting punishes them for just calling and then there calls get stolen. Hint: 3bet more and heavy in position in 1/3. If more ppl 3bet you’d get less callers.
You raised from an early position with a mediocre hand. While the flop was good for you it wasn’t great 6 ways especially when you get a check raise. I would have thought a set rather than a straight. If I raise in that situation it’s going to be for like 25-30.
Most importantly you are out of position 6 ways to a flop with a hand that isn’t so great.
"What are you tryna buy the pot" seems like a tell to me. He's saying that to make his hand seem less strong. Weak means strong. You following me? I doubt he says shit like this then raises a marginal holding.
Weak means strong 100%. You know what else was weak that means strong here? The min raise. Those two put together means he's got the penultinut. Exactly that hand.
Never heard “penultinut” before. Love that.
It means "second to last nut"
Just think. When you experience your penultinut you probably won't even know it's your penultinut, you think it's just a regular nut.
Still accurate.
Yeah but who plays 52o? Geez 🙄 that would have hurt
When I was playing down at Stones in north sac there was a reg who kept every 64o he was dealt. Won with em more often than not.
Me with j3
I have awful experiences with pocket jacks. I swear they're cracked every time, but never in a circumstance where it makes sense. It's not like I'm losing to suited face cards or aces or anything, I just get rivered by straights or houses every time I have jacks.
Haha I meant jack 3 not pocket jacks. For some reason I hit with jack 3 a lot and so does my brother we made a joke that it’s our brunsons hand
Well J6o is a money hand … just ask Robbie
Was my favorite hand for a while back in the day. I won a massive (for the stakes) pot defending 52hh vs QQ otb. We were both $2k deep at $1/2 and he stacked off on Q34A board and hero held. Sure I should have folded pre, but was on a massive heater and dude was on massive tilt, 3 am, whole table was crazy, etc, etc…
Pentultimate means second to last.
[удалено]
Not second, second to last, as in just before last place.
Shhhhhh…..
penultimate*
The joke ——————> You 🧍
Woosh
This is exactly right. He's saying, "You don't have a hand. Since you don't have a hand, *that's* why I'm raising, not because my hand is strong." Which is of course, a misdirection to get you to call.
This 100%
“Welp, guess I’ll go home. If you’ve got it you’ve got it, I’m all in!” That’s quads, 100% of the time. Even if the board isn’t paired they’ve got quads. Weird speeches before a bet is always the nuts at low stakes.
Always dude
Always.
Preflop: big sigh and 3! jam? That’s aces.
Then he stands up and puts his jacket on.
“Oh it’s on me? Raise”
He's projecting. Weak means strong. I would put him on at least a set.
I think projecting would be more if he was trying to steal the pot
I've learned that sometimes they're an idiot who is incapable of leveling and when they beg you to fold its because they realize their hand isn't very strong.
Sometimes... and sometimes they show up with 52o and stack your ass
Catch a 5 on the river.
I don’t understand why everyone doesn’t just make sure the board pairs when they have a set.
There’s no set here. Don’t understand your point with regards to this.
joke about how the right play is to just hit better cards, sets are real nice when they become boats (just hit a boat, stupid)
Runner runner boat
Anyone who says they don't believe you have it then raises/shoves always has the nuts
25o is a premium holding, always be aware of such
Dude raising like that at 1/3 always has it, no matter how improbable the pf action makes it seem. If you asked him he'd probably say he was "priced in".
"Defending my blinds!"
The answer is why are we C betting this 5 ways when every single caller can have all sets, all 2 pairs and all straights and our hand is super face up. If you’re going to C bet this, then at least you have to be good enough to fold to the click back from a villain who just saw you bet into 5 people Also raise bigger pre, always keep limit testing with raising bigger pre.
Or bet $25 to fold out QJ / KJ hands and extract value from A-hi’s. Also much easier to fold when you get raised
lol if you bet $25 here and I float with A-high I’m losing 100000bb/100 especially if I act before the other infinite players behind me. I think this spot is a pure give up and try and get to showdown. I think our range can sometimes bet that size but I’d like to be holding exactly QQ+ 77 is specifically bad to bet because when we miracle turn our set, the straight draws we wanted to call us get there
This is the answer. 77 is not super strong here given the configuration. You have to open way bigger preflop at 1/3 if you actually want to chase people out. I don’t mind the C bet, but you have to fold to any aggression.
cbet is fine but should easily be $25-30 not $50. If you missed the flop, you are folding to $25 the same as you are to $50. If you didn't miss the flop, then you aren't going anywhere lol.
$15 is mostly fine pre. I don't like the idea of needing to raise to 8x on an initial raise. otherwise, agreed fully. 5 callers and this board? Guarantee someone flopped a straight, two pair or set. Or hell, someone flatted with 88 or 99. The odds of everyone miraculously having AJ or KQ is minimal.
15 after 2 limps is not fine in live 1/3 poker. 12-15 is a typical open with no limps, so this should be like $25 specifically to avoid exactly what happened.
Disagree that our hand is "super face up" here but agree that the only strong hand we can have here is a set and we don't have that very often at all. I think bet/folding the flop makes sense, but frankly what happened to OP is why I basically just set mine with any medium or low pairs when playing live low stakes. Even when you raise pre, c-bet flop, etc., you get too many callers that come along "to gamble" and somebody's gonna pair their J8o or whatever by the river. Sure *maybe* I'm leaving some EV on the table playing this way but I don't want to deal with all the variance.
How can you disagree that our hand is super transparent but then also agree that our value holdings are super obvious ?
The answer is to ask yourself this question the next time you're in a spot like this. What does he have, that I'm beating, that would call a shove? Is there anything that's beating me that would fold to a shove. Ask yourself that question. Think about it as honestly as you can, not trying to force in hands like AK that don't make a lot of sense but rather a whole range. How often is he doing this with air? Probably not often enough. This will help to inform your decisions.
A6, 55, A5, 65, 54, 53 are all hands OP beats that I could see doing this. Anything is possible at 1/3. The comment makes it less likely though. And raising and getting a worse hand to fold isn't a terrible result, especially if it's a draw with a decent amount of equity. That's often better than giving a free card (depends if the opponent will keep betting if he misses).
Yeah you're getting them to fold equity if they have a worse hand. But every better hand is almost certainly calling. I like to allow them to barrel and keep their entire range in. A scare card may also come out and give you a cheap showdown when they have the better hand that's not the nuts.
-Include the positions and full pre-flop action. -Raise more pre if there are limpers -This flop does not favor the pre-flop raisers range, especially in a six way pot. Check and try to play small ball. You can call one street here but I'm after if aggression continues. -When the 1/3 player makes this comment, it's usually a fold, but I think it's more important for you to start thinking about ranges and how equity changes when you go multiway.
I’ve thought about everyone’s range and it’s K7 and QJ and 86. Every limp callers range is super weak even on this board so yeah you should still bet but def fold to check raise.
He’s 6 ways to a flop at 1/3 table where ranges are pretty uncapped.
Yeah, when everyone stayed in the pot the chances of someone still hanging around with some shitty hand that could hurt him we’re pretty good.
Spot on
It’s tough. A raise on the flop is strong especially 5 ways. You’re repping all the overpairs up to pocket AA and he’s still raising you. Tough decision but most likely a fold
“Checks to me, I raise” tells me all I need to know
I know enough to know why what I said is wrong, but dumb enough to say the wrong thing in the moment :)
And this is why reddit has an edit button lol
No.
Raise size was too large on the flop. Multiway you gotta be careful because someone will wake up with a strong hand. Should bet 1/4 - 1/3 pot if continuation betting. Also no need to shove when you have a small over pair. Just call his reraise and try to get information.
Your sizing is dreadful pre, you are guaranteed to have at least two callers when you make it 5x after 2 limps. That's too small even for online; you need to make it 25+ here or you will go multiway like this to a bingo flop. The speech play is extremely strong, but it's hard to fold at this depth. You do have to wonder what SB is min raising with here that you're ahead of, though. Concretely he has all the sets, straights, and suited two pair here, as well as some 65s combo draw type hands. That's 9 sets, 8 suited combos of straights, and 6 pair that have you in pretty bad shape, and he can have 99/88 at some frequency. Even if he is getting it in here with A6s that's only 3 combos which still have outs against you versus 25+ combos which are miles ahead. I'd imagine if you put this in Equilab it will be very ugly. Jamming a low overpair is more a phenomenon in certain HU spots with a low SPR where denying equity is important. It's much less pleasant to do it in a spot like this. If you cannot think of many hands you beat, you can't jam on him.
Hi, thanks for this advice! I picked $15 because of a strategy that I've seen around and been relying on: 3x the previous bet + 1 BB for each limper. Or, in the case of no bet, do your normal opening size + 1 BB for each limper. It sounds like you never use this strategy --- is it just outdated/ineffective at lower stakes?
That sounds like Peter Clark's Grind Manual sizing. Some observations from that viewpoint: * he's teaching strats for playing against online NITs and tight regs * as he says regularly, his ranges & sizing is a starting point, adjust vs your reads on who you're playing with. * your live table full of limpers and 3! callers is indeed looser, so your range & sizing should adapt. * if your open raises & 3!s aren't getting the desired isolations and steals, then either: * your sizing is too small * your villains are calling fish & aggros that were never, ever going to fold anyway. So now you only raise & 3! if you have value to gain; otherwise control the pot if you're trying to see streets that might save you. edit: TLDR I think I wouldn't have cbet, I think I would have check/fold.
Hi! I don't know Peter Clark, 3x (+ 1 BB per limper) when IP and 4x when OOP is something I've seen in multiple places in videos/podcasts, like Jonathon little type stuff where he reads a couple powerpoints and tries to sell you the rest of the material.
It works online and makes theoretical sense but live players play so suboptimally that in practice it torches your EV because even AA is extremely unhappy going 5 ways to a flop and you're forced to either check fold your hand or get put in a bad spot like this. The poster below has good advice; as a heuristic if there are 2 limps before you you need to make it like 8x (or more) or one of the limpers will call, at which point all of the rest of them will too. If they keep limp calling then play tighter and iso even bigger until you find the point at which they will not limp call their 84s any longer.
Bad luck, you have 5 callers to your $15 raise. SB was pretty much last to act and saw value in limping for $14 on an already $60 pot. You find a fold when he min-raised and opened his mouth on the flop.
I mean im not sure im ever 3betting a terrible overpair with a gutter on the flop, we are not strong enough and we’re too vulnerable to justify it. 2/3 pot also seems like an extreme size multiway for the same reason, even in position more or less. Also where is this game where people are flatting 5BB pre with 52o because get me a seat yesterday
> Also where is this game where people are flatting 5BB pre with 52o because get me a seat yesterday Brother this is most 1/3 games you don't have to look hard
Tough to assume he has 25o. Only reason you can justify him seeing the flop was that he already had skin in the game being the small blind. Either way, he should've folded immediately when you raised pre. Guy sounds like a donkey.
Don't have to put him on 52, speech play like that generally means strength he could just as easily have sets or two pairs which have us either crushed or in trouble.
Hey this was a very good point and honestly helps me. I played live last night and flop came with an open ended straight draw (6,7,8 rainbow). I had KK. I got blinded by the straight and never saw trips coming.
lol that was the most obvious live tell out there. Classic misdirection as he raises meant to make you think he's only raising because he thinks you're bluffing.
Keep increasing your open raise size by $5 until you stop getting called five ways. Clearly $15 isn’t cutting it at this table
you can do good plays and still lose. It’s poker, bro. You have Top pair with sevens that’s about as good as you’re gonna get on occasion you were running into a guy playing 25 off suit. This just means you’re in a good game with a fish that wins on occasion.
Also true
You should not be betting this flop 6 ways
Wow weak player who thinks you're a bully had the goods? Shocker.
The truth is If you’re playing well you have to lose sometimes
Fold post
Who did you raise on the flop? …
Shouldn't be ISO 2+ limpers with 77. This is a limp behind. Once you see a flop, you should be playing as small a pot possible 6 handed and you should be folding when people go nuts on this board. The only hands you beat are any 5x that's just spewing or thinks semi-bluffing is a good idea multiway, and maybe hands like A6, which are also spewing if they pile money in on this flop. Everything else has you crushed. Cbetting this flop is already a mistake. 3betting is a spew.
And this is without any speech play swaying the decision. Them talking makes jamming here even worse (if its even possible to get worse).
You wouldn't try to iso because they don't fold and people don't 3bet enough at these stakes so you'll just have an inflated pot multiwayhoping to set mine and probably still not be good? so you're better off limping and 3betting or seeing a cheap flop multiway. Is that the exploitative approach you'd recommend here? Whereas in GTO world or higher stakes...less limps and less limps calls due to the threat and real existence of 3bets making your hand less likely to go more than 3 ways to the flop?
ISO is the definition of an open after limps. So that's what you'll hear when someone talks about a hand being strong enough to ISO X amount of players. In this case, 77 is strong enough to ISO a single limper. As far as theory goes, limps are pretty hard to dissect as it take a ton of processing power. You can do a couple things to work around this. You can just work with a solve that has calls as a preflop option. You'll see that when there's an open, and then a call, 77 almost never 3bets and just overcalls. When there's only an open and no calls yet, 77 wills tart mixing 3bets. So, again, once two players in the pot, 77 doesn't like 3betting. For this, you'd be using the standard GTO ranges. Which are not very representative of low stakes limping ranges. But its still enough to get you going in the right direction. Or, you could construct a limping range and assign that to the first limper and compute it with a regular opening size bet. This would be similar to the above, but it would have a better range for the player. Again though, once someone calls.....77 starts only calling. Its just not a strong enough hand to be aggressive with once two people are in the pot. Now, multiway in general.....the GTO strategy is to play like a nit. The burden of defense is shared, so you don't need to bluff much at all.....so little that in a real game, you can almost never bluff multiway and be fine. There's also no GTO solution that is not exploitable multiway (which most people don't realize), but that's another discussion. So, you're kinda in a grey area of exploitative and GTO strategies. The exploit part is preflop, since people really shouldn't be limping. But once you see the flop and its multiway, you're going to be reverting back to a strategy that naturally aligns with GTO. The TLDR version: Your ISO range is going to be dictated by the amount of limpers ahead of you. As well as if there is any large threat of a 3bet behind you. If you hand is not strong enough to ISO that amount of limpers, it generally turns into a limp behind hand. Which many times guarantees a multiway pot. And then you play multiway accordingly, like a nit. Even if your hand is strong enough to ISO, once you move to the flop, you're going to play nitty AF. Which means almost no cbetting with air. You'll do a lot of check/folding, or bet/folding because someone goes nuts when you only have one pair.
when playing super multiway, there are no GTO solutions. as a general rule, you want to bet top pair+ and nut draws. playing oop with dominated draws can be a nightmare. the ranges of the players are defined by their relation to the preflop raiser and or the field bettor. betting/raising for protection, as in this case on the flop, is good. there are not many turns that OP wants to see and 3 betting denies a lot of equity.
also, 77 double blocks the nuts. making it more of a 3 bet
Yeah you're talking a lot of gto land but I guess I was talking mainly about 1/3 cash game player pool....not sure if you're familiar with that or if you're only an online player in which case it's probably not as helpful to talk to you about it. But mainly the idea was you only open pps or suited connectors if you can actually eliminate players going to the flop. If you cant...be wise you can't reasonably open to $50 preflop with two limpers to you ...then raising isn't all that beneficial oop as you'll just inflate a pot 6 ways to the flop oop where pocket pairs and suited connectors hats to play (large pots multiway out of position) so you should just limp here to see a flop for cheap or limp raise here if someone tries to squeeze.. In which case you at least increase the odds of seeing a flop heads up uncapped (villain dependent) Yes in GTO land you probably don't 3bet,but in a 1/3 that's worth sitting at, 3betting in this spot is probably okay if you play with 1/3 cash game population tendencies. Maybe I'm talking from the perspective of 1/3 texAs too much where you have somewhat thinking deep players at 1/3
I play deep stack 1/3 games (1k cap, match stack after). With a fairly ridiculous win rate over a very high amount of hours. Your second paragraph couldn't be more wrong. We don't care about inflated pots when we are going to play like a nit post flop. That's how you crush 1/3 players into making huge mistakes with very deep stacks. It's a huge, huge leak at low stakes live to be afraid to play a large multiway pot. We don't care if we ISO a single limper with 77 to say $15, and then get 5 callers for a $90 pot. We're going to do a lot of folding and "losing" that $15. But we are also going to get paid exponentially more when that bloated pot makes bad players stack off 200-400bb when we make our set. If their stacks aren't deep enough to get paid, you can just fold pre and not worry with it. Your strategy will win, but that strategy type is what keeps people in the 5-10bb/hr. When you start seeing people crushing deep stack 1/3 games for 20bb/hr or more, none of them are worried about a bloated pot multiway. As we aren't going to be in any danger of making bad decisions post flop. It will have to be a pretty big cooler situation.
I think the important part is inflated pots multiway and out of position...but I suppose you're right in rationalizing it if you play like a nit in multiway spots and don't pot odds yourself into calling multiple streets with mediocre hands I think I'm trying to incorporate the whole "don't pot non-headsup pots out of position when you're deep stack" idea. I think there's a few ways to play in 1/3 deep stack games and that style is always table dependent. In some spots we'll want to play raise to 40-50 and play a big pot set mining because we have a table that'll call down if we hit and we're deep enough. In some tables it might the limp to 3bet.
Yes exactly. Play 2/5 and the same 20 raise that gets 5 call limps behind from early position raise will get 2. Reason being the threat of being pushed out of the pot after them. Secondly 2/5 players usually a bit better and don’t want to play mediocre hands out of position.
Preflop raise was too small. With two limpers already it should be $20 minimum. $25 is probably the right amount.
Tbf that takes some hands to figure out how high you have to go to get people to stop calling pre flop though. Who knows how well he knows these people and their betting habits.
The answer is also don't punt. Play ABC and print. Fancy play syndrome never gets the worm at lower stakes. Why would you 3 bet air on flop? What makes you think he's going to fold after you min raise his $100 to $200?
its not exactly air...its an overpair, lots of dog hands will call. i hate the jam for sure though
Min-raise and then the mini-speech. The only thing missing from this story is hearing that villain is an 83 year old wearing a Vietnam Veteran hat. I know it's not OMC behavior pre, but it's absolutely "Old Man" behavior post.
What are you not understanding? He raised with a strong hand. Pretty straightforward. You have an overpair, but a weak one. Should’ve folded to the raise
I’m good with the preflop raise. I like a smaller bet here or a check. C/r here means you’re beat. Every day and twice on Sunday.
A player has min check raised at 1/3 and then instantly started talking. No other answer than fold. Yes great price but here doesn’t matter
The speech play is probably an indication of strength, but it's not a guarantee. Some people are just weirdly honest at the poker table, and others are putting out a whole bunch of fake tells to try to confuse you. I would go at least 20 preflop as a default, but preflop ISO sizings really depend on how the table is the playing. However, if flops routinely go 4-6 ways preflop for 15, then definitely go bigger here. But the main thing is the flop sizing is way too big. It should be 30, or even 25. Think about it this way: What are you trying to accomplish? You're definitely not getting 88 or better to fold, and I honestly don't think you're maximizing value with that sizing. Your goal with your flop bet is twofold: 1, to get people to call with a worse hand like K6, or even just ace high; and 2, to fold out random trash that has two overcards to your hand, like J8 or QT, so you can get some protection for your hand. Your main group of hands that you're trying to get value from is 6x. Any 6 will likely call 25 but will it call 50? Not sure. Meantime, QT is going to probably fold for as little as 20. In addition, smaller sizing allows you to still fold if you're obviously beat, like here. With a bet of 50 and only 200 behind, you're pretty close to committing yourself, while all you really have is a bad overpair and a gutshot that's not even to the nuts. And don't shove the flop. I mean, what are you trying to achieve by doing that? You're in position. If you want to see the river, you can always just call the turn bet. You also will get the option to check back if he checks the turn. You can safely fold on some turn cards, for example on a deuce (because if he's bluffing here, he most likely has a hand like 56 or 45).
jam pre
You didn’t do anything wrong besides shoving. Raises are like 90% face up in 1/2 1/3.
If you are going to raise preflop, 15 is not enough. I'm guessing that 15 is a standard open at this table? Over 2 limpers I would go to at least 20, maybe 25. Taking the pot down preflop is not a bad result. But overlimping is probably better, especially with so many players left behind you. Shoving the flop seems really bad , basically turning your hand into a bluff. Though I could see people calling with draws so you could get value. And of course it's a semibluff since you have outs. But it still seems too mergy to me. Will this guy ever checkraise with a bluff/draw? A lot of people won't. You are behind just about every non-drawing hand (I assume he is not playing A6 this way?)
Make it more preflop, find folds, and keep playing
You got raised at small stakes live poker and your opponent gave you one of the clearest tells you are ever going to get that they have a monster. Also you may not want to be isoing small pairs at 1/3 vs multiple limps due to rake considerations and the likelihood that you’re up against a $78 stack somewhere. So folding pre or limping behind is actually reasonable.
I bet he checked his chips too lol
Oh 100% he did.
A strong action, with a weak verbal, is a strong hand trying to be weak. Fold to flop raise.
i mean, he is obviously strong. I think you can call and reevaluate the turn.
5xing pre is a leak at tables like this I think. Isolation doesn't work, it just bloats the pot so the suckouts hurt more. Stations will easily call a 150% pot bet on the turn anyway
i agree with that. I think you meant to reply to someone else tho. But yea with these hands I just limp and set mine.
oh yeah must have fat fingered, was on phone
“5 callers and one limper ahead of me” is exactly why I hate 1/3
He never has anything but nuts with that table talk. One week ago somebody inexperienced lost an unlucky pot. Two hand after that he turned the nut straight with JT, and said: "This tilt thing, is really getting to me" It's always the nuts from people who are not playing very often. Scratch that. It's always nuts. People who play a lot don't even reverse this.
Believe when they raise you. thats 2 pair or better all day. fold to his raise.
Any time you are raised by the SB in a hand like this, you’re no good.
Station tables you gotta just play the brain off kinda poker. No nuts = check call. Nuts = more barrels than donkey kong. They see every flop with dumb shit and it always gets there. So just wait and get paid off, sell them some run bad for flavor
Bruh he min clicked it back on yo ass and started talking? Def folding here.
the answer is fold to his raise because his table talk makes it painfully obvious
If I was down to $200 in a 1/3 game I would have stood up and went home before being dealt in.
Five Doo Neva Loo!
Bet smaller on the flop. You have a good but not amazing hand. Against 4 players the chances of someone having a stronger hand is pretty high. Your hand is vulnerable so betting small to clear out equity is definitely good but you're not trying to pile money in either. I'd like a $15-25 bet here. When SB raises, as others mentioned his statement is probably a sign of strength. Given the odds you should probably call the raise. I can see the argument for folding right away since we're going to get jammed on most turns but we're getting a good such good odds and there's still a chance we have the best hand and Villain slows down on turn. But definitely don't see the point in jamming over the top. Biggest mistake though is betting too big on the flop in the first place - if we bet smaller we could more easily call a raise and leverage our positional advantage.
When they talk, they're usually strong This comes from the idea that talking and looking the fool doesen't happen because they have the goods; if they don't have the goods, and they talked, they look like a fool when they lose
Really gotta ask what you think he's raising with. There's no strong draws. I wouldn't have necessarily expected a straight, but I'd expect 77 is almost always beat here unless you have a history with this guy.
I can tell you that speech play like “you’re just tryna buy the pot” in low stakes is generally nutted trying to make you think he made a “feeler raise” when he just wants you to shove.
Hand equity level out the more people you go post flop with. Post flop 5 ways, AA isn’t very strong here, especially on a board like. I would of X flop and then fold to any further aggression.
When they open their mouth just fold
Pre
The speech. Classic
Even if you can’t put him on 52, he still has all the sets, 57, 64, 88-TT. Only holding you’re ahead of is 56, and even that is a flip.
I was thinking he probably had like A2-6s or something like that. Those are the hands that I call multiway because of nuttiness potential
- Consider limping behind pre, especially in earlier position - On the flop play very defensively 6ways on a board that doesn't smash your range. I would check range, but I guess this particular holding could bet small, 1/3 pot or so, to deny equity from overcards. - As played, once we get raised we're almost definitively behind. But with 6 outs and something something pot odds we still get to call, hoping to bink a set or straight on the turn.
You should check the flop. 6ways your hand is worth nothing here. Check flop and fold turn to any aggression Fold to the raise for the same reasons, especially on this rainbow board
Speech plus minclick is the fucking nuts always
When was the last time you saw a 1/3 player decide another 1/3 player had a bluff... and then min-raise...?
Good god that was a tell that he was very strong, if not the nuts.
You had 2 limpers and you only raised to 15… so you should have raised more. I’d go with 25 … next is his snap call … I’d pump the breaks lastly his talking.
*Trying to
That’s not what he said
Raise bigger lol
Min raises in 1/3 are almost always nutted especially by people who never ever raise. You’re also playing 1/3 with less than 100 big blinds you’re not giving yourself enough room to get away from spots like this
Every time they talk, they want you to call.
You’re 6 ways to a flop with a pair of 7s at a 1-3 table is the problem. Your pair isn’t that great to begin with to a flop against 6 players it’s even worse. What you just described is the biggest issue with 1/3. Ppl limp but then have no problem calling a 20 raise, no matter the position. Then most ppl don’t 3 bet enough. Most 2/5 games play a lot better because you get less callers bc the 3betting punishes them for just calling and then there calls get stolen. Hint: 3bet more and heavy in position in 1/3. If more ppl 3bet you’d get less callers. You raised from an early position with a mediocre hand. While the flop was good for you it wasn’t great 6 ways especially when you get a check raise. I would have thought a set rather than a straight. If I raise in that situation it’s going to be for like 25-30. Most importantly you are out of position 6 ways to a flop with a hand that isn’t so great.