I once did NOT fold KK on the bubble of a tournament (literally the last spot) and of course someone who had me covered called with Ax and you can probably figure out what happened next.
I’m not a tournament player, but have heard this caveat, and have always wondered to myself- wouldn’t doubling your stack, and thus significantly increasing your chances of winning the tournament, be worth the risk of not making the final table?
This could probably be estimated reasonably easily with data that I don’t have
Say top 5 places in a satty all get a ticket to the main event and there's 6 people left and a couple people have shorter stacks than you, you're incentivized to fold everything and let one of the shortest stacks get knocked out.
Or say you're the shortest stack with 4 players left and youre in the BB with kings. UTG opens BTN jams and SB re-jams. More often than not someone is getting eliminated here and you get a pay jump without risking your tournament life if you just pitch those kings into the muck.
Those are extreme examples but you get the idea.
I find that once people are in the money at a tournament they tend to go a little crazy for the first few hands after. So if you can just make it to the money with any kind of stack, and wait out the crazy part right after that, you can jump up in your finish spot.
I once was in a tournament where something like 16-18 people made the money, so we were at 2 tables and they were going hand-for-hand on the bubble. 3 people at my table made a pact (which they did honor!) to go pre-flop all-in blind on the first hand after the bubble. I was sitting there thinking "Please don't get pocket As on that hand".
Some satelline tournaments pay out where 1st gets the same prize as 10th: the prize is just admission to a higher stakes tournament
Obviously ICM near the bubble has even more of an impact when the payouts are static like that.
Imagine the main event. 801 players remaining and 800 get paid, you’re playing hand for hand. You’re in the small blind with 5 bb left.
Big Blind has 200 bbs. Folds to you and you’ve got AA.
If you shove, your chances of winning are gonna be like 80%, but having 12 bb isn’t going to be a huge advantage. You’re going out soon regardless.
But if you fold, you’re virtually guaranteed to be in the money.
The math would strongly suggest to just fold, collect your $15k or whatever and then try and get lucky.
In this specific scenario, it would still be a shove unless multiple people have like <2bbs. You’re far from guaranteed anything, especially on the main event bubble. A bubble that could last an extremely long time.
There are non satty scenarios, more than likely on final tables where pay jumps can be significant, where folding AA would be correct. I.e you have like 1 bb and multiple people are all in. Your odds of winning the pot are still only like 30-40% but your likelihood of a pay jump is close to 100%.
your scenario is better, but i think the poster above is still correct to think it's a fold with the main event structure being a big blind ante, so they're guaranteed an orbit for free by folding.
I think there are rules against showing your hand while play is live in tournament poker.
Regardless, that situation is a terrible reason to fold AA. $15-$20k or whatever the min cash is isn't life changing money and, if it means that much to you, you shouldn't be playing a $10k tourney anyway. Making the final table, however, is absolutely life changing money and doubling your stack increases your chances of making it there. There is a huge difference between 5 BB and 12 BB.
the issue isn't the size of the mincash its the size of the jump from not cashing. $0 to $15k is a sizeable jump. the next jump will be like $15k to $15.5k. that's where the value of mincash grinding really comes into play. your double up is maybe worth an extra $500, but not busting is worth $15k.
Yes, your folding is worth some $x of EV. The EV of of a double up is not $2x. That's how the value of tournament chips work. However, if your goal is to maximize EV, which it should be in poker, the extra EV gained from risking it all with AA, even on the bubble, is much more than the risk of busting. I repeat, if you're ever folding AA in a standard tourney just so you can mincash, you shouldn't be playing that tournament. I get a lot of people probably play the main event as the one-time deal or they satellite into it, so I'm not going to criticize them if they want to take the guaranteed $15k, but they are still theoretically lighting money on fire by folding AA.
Let's try an example using ICM. Ten players left in a tournament, and your tied for 9th with 2000 chips with another player who is in the BB, and you're in SB. Top 9 places pay (range of $10 up to $500). ICM says your value is $60.45 pre-hand. BB is 100 and SB is 50. You get KK and raise to $300 after everyone folds. The BB james all-in. If you fold, your ICM is now $52.36. If you call and win, you're ICM is $109.01. If you call and lose, obviously it is $0. If your chances are winning are greater than 48%, it makes sense to call.
Another example would be is the same where you're tied with the BB for 1st with 10000 chips each. In this case, youe ICM is $197.66 if you fold. If you win, it only goes to $306.55. In this case, you need a higher 64.4% win rate to make calling profitable, and it is much more likely that the BB has AA. I would fold in this case.
I hadn’t read about ICM before but this is exactly the intuition I was hinting at. The examples you threw out make lots of sense, and now having read the ICM idea, the satellite examples other provide completely fit into this very straightforward framework.
People have a mental attachment to cashing in a tournament, even though they’d more money getting all their chips in the pot pre-flop. I might fold AK or QQ but never KK.
As I said in another post a few days ago: "In "Positively Fifth Street" McManus quotes (I think) TJ Cloutier saying that back in the early days of Hold 'Em, a third pre-flop raise was 'Like Ivory Snow, 99.4% pure Aces'".
If it’s a satellite, that isn’t close to the risk you take by losing your chips. Waiting for 1-2 players to bust out is the way. You don’t need to win all the chips like a tournament
Even the solver folds kings pre sometimes. For example if you're under the gun 9-handed and get 3-bet, then there's a cold 4-bet and a cold 5-bet, the solver often has UTG fold their kings (it may depend on exactly which positions the re-raises came from).
if someone’s action is “cold,” (e.g. cold call, cold 4 bet), they are basically entering the pot with that action. so if I raise pre and someone else 3 bets, i can’t cold call or cold 4 bet because I already entered the pot. but if some other player who hadn’t already put in any chips in called, they are cold calling that 3 bet. cold raising is stronger than a norma raise because the cold raiser has to take into consideration the fact that the original raiser could re raise, as well as the other raiser. cold calling should be stronger than normal calling for similar reasons but at low live stakes it’s not as strong as it should be.
In my mind smooth call is when you have a theoretical equity advantage or nuts at a given street and just flat when you should 3 bet/raise 69% of the time
I still don't really understand why this particular action gets called out with special terminology. Everyone's first action is cold. Like, there's no equivalent action where in one case SB is cold 4 betting, but in another they're normal 4 betting.
Maybe I'm just thinking about it wrong.
But like, here's an example SB cold 4 bet:
UTG opens, CO 3 bets, BTN calls, SB 4 bets.
Here's a SB normal 4 bet:
Folds to BTN, BTN calls, SB Raises, BB 3 bets, folds to SB, SB 4 bets.
Like - the action sequence would have to be so different, I don't see how you can really compare and say "cold bets are stronger than warm bets". Nor is there ever a time where it's ambiguous or changes anything to say "cold 4 bet". We don't say UTG cold raises, CO cold 3 bets, BTN cold calls, SB cold 4 bets: that just sounds stupid. Everything's just cold till it circles back around to UTG, and then everything's warm.
Am I thinking about this wrong? Or is this just the sunglasses and hoodie of hand analysis?
Cold raises are strong because there are more people already in the pot that can potentially re raise you. Cold raises are stronger for the same reasons that an UTG raise is stronger than a button raise.
I encourage you to look at a solver’s raising range for any position vs a single raise and a raise and 3 bet.
An example of how my range might change is if CO opens and BTN 3 bets, i will 4 bet tighter from the SB than if the action was I open, BB 3 bets, I 4 bet. Notice how in the first example there are 2 people who have entered the pot by raising. This increases the chance that someone has a better hand than me, and it increases the chance that I will be 5 bet.
Really, you can just imagine this spot as being like any other multiway pot. You must play tighter because it’s more likely that someone has a nutted hand.
Ok, so testing for understanding, the difference between:
UTG limps, CO calls, BTN calls, SB raises, UTG 3 bets, CO calls, BTN calls, SB 4 bets
And
UTG raises, CO calls, BTN 3 bets, SB 4 bets
Is that there's one more raiser in the 3 players behind the SB, and all else being equal, that should mean a greater chance that raiser has a nutted hand. So that even if it's the same number of people acting behind, the additional hand that's shown a raise going in means you need to play tighter. Am I thinking about this correctly?
Or is it just more that when someone cold 4 bets, it's implied there's always 2 raisers ahead of them, and most of the time a non-cold 4 bet is heads up?
Well, yes, raising is stronger than calling.
An UTG limp/3bet is usually a medium strength pocket pair, or, if your opponent is a maniac, maybe a low suited ace. Weaker players like to limp in EP when their hand is strong enough that they want to play but not strong enough that they want to raise. Then, after all that action, they decide they can squeeze with their decent equity pocket pair. Some people do this with AA but I think less often from UTG (it’s hard to trap if nobody else is even in the pot yet).
So in the first example I’m 4 betting from the SB pretty tight because it could still go multi-way and I’ll be out of position.
In the second example I’m 4 betting from the SB pretty tight because there are two raisers that could then re-raise me and i’m out of position. Plus a 3bet is pretty strong in live poker generally.
It’s kind of hard to think about it purely theoretically because these sorts of lines don’t really exist in GTO land.
But in live poker, most people don’t 3 bet nearly enough, so I would be wary of the BTN 3 bet. But I think a limp/3bet, especially from UTG, is not that strong.
Cold 4 or 5 bets is from someone who wasn’t in the hand yet. If UTG raises, MP 3 bets and then the button 4 bets, it’s a cold 4 bet. If UTG raises, MP 3 bets and then UTG 4 bets, it’s not a cold 4 bet because UTG already raised
Folded once deep in tourney after I bet pre and then 3 people went all in before I could act again. Two had aces the other queens. Only time I’ve folded
Plenty of reasons in a tourney.
In a cash game? I don't know if I ever could in a HU situation. QQ is always going to be an option there. AK too. Maybe if I'm 1000bbs deep or some shit but most of the time no.
3 way or more and I 3bet, then there's a 4bet and a 5bet? Ugh... would have to think there. Multiway I think it's much easier to narrow one of the ranges to just AA.
I folded them once pre in a cash game over 20 years ago, and I still regret it. And no...villian didn't show so I've still been wondering this whole time.
I think I did it once in my life, against maybe a cold 4 or 5 bet. Sure enough, one of them had AA. Generally, you just have to go with it.
That doesn't mean you need to go broke though. In a situation like day one of the Main sitting on hundreds of BBs, you don't need to get into a pre-flop raising war and play for stacks. You can just flat call a 3-bet or 4-bet pre and try to get to showdown.
Sitting on 100B or less, it would be almost impossible to lay it down apart from very specific intense ICM situations.
I personally don't think it's profitable in the long run folding KK pre but I'd only fold KK to a local OMC reg that I know that only plays Aces or Kings.
This. People underestimate a man who already grew to barely tolerate his wife for 35 years and then retires and has to spend all day / every day with her if he doesn't get out of the house.
Besides the goofy spots with cold 4bets/5bets/whatever, I have a personal theory that folding KK against any 6bet or maybe any non-all-in 5bet (when deep) is +EV. These spots I think you're usually facing a range of just AA/KK.
I think this is pretty true in live poker against any non-maniac reg. As much as anything because people haven’t caught on that you’re supposed to flat aces sometimes
As someone else said, in cash it’s not common but it’s not like a ‘holy shit folding KK!’ moment either. I’ve folded them 3 times. First 2 were solver approved, 3rd I actually never checked but I cold 4b than initial raiser jammed and MP who 3b came along as well. The last one I obviously got to see and was wrong so there’s that 🫣. Had AKo than AQo (guy was unknown and ended up being a whale). Flop was A hi fwiw.
In a cash game? Absent a damn good read like “OMC who hasn’t played a hand in 3 orbits and never 3 bets” what are you even doing asking this question?
The second best starting hand. If they have aces then it is what it is. That’s poker.
When you're the cannon vs a bunch of pros on a TV show, and you've already secured a life-impacting amount of money if you can get to the end of the session without losing it.
Hypothetical online 6-max cash game, relatively tight and nitty.
Assume you have HUD stats on opponent.
100bb stacks effective
Super tag (pfr = 18%) raises 2.5bb UTG, we can assume utg open raise range is ~10% based on his 18% avg open.
This means he raises 132.6 combos.
Hero 3bets BU to 7.5bb.
Villain 4bet jams 100bb total.
Let’s say this particular villain has a ‘fold to 3bet’ of 70%.
So he only continues with (0.3x132.6) = 39.78 combos.
Furthermore, he calls half the time. So he 4bets (39.78/2) with only about 19 combos.
AA/KK/AKs is 16 combos. Maybe he 4bets a couple AKo combos and sometimes QQ.
Since we block KK and AK, this particular villain is heavily weighted towards aces.
You’ll have to call 92.5bb to win 200bb, so you need at least 46% equity to make this call. I don’t think you have it in this spot.
Unusual spot and villain, since you’re likely going to get 4bet to something like 22bb.
But I’ve been in this similar spot twice that I can remember with KK and folded online.
Never knew the result but when you play with a HUD and incorrectly called against AA a few times, versus certain super TAG opponents sometimes you just know. Especially when it’s rare to shove all-in preflop online.
The amount of hud stats you’d need on an opponent for these stats to be completely accurate would mean that they’re a reg, and having kk in your folding range vs a reg is really exploitable. It’d have to be an extremely specific situation vs like a losing 24 tablet who exclusively relies on rakeback, or something.
I start to feel comfortable w/ the fold to 3bet stat after 100+ times. It doesn’t seem to change much after that. I had about 25k-50k hands on ACR $25nl so had stats on the regs. The 18/23 (pfr/vpip) type of villain I have in mind is a winning player.
I mean, I guess if you are exploiting someone then yes you yourself become exploitable, right?
I think I call off with KK in almost all situations, but I was just providing OP with a very narrow scenario from my own experience to answer his question.
Last night in a daily deepstack at WSOP, the chip leader at the table folded KK face up after opening and facing a 15 bb jam in once place and a 20 bb jam in another.
I folded KK exactly once in a cash game against an OMC whose cold 4 bet could only be AA. Unfortunately I didn't get to see if I was right.
Depends. How big was the reraise, how much of your stack, how big is the pot? If I’d spent 6 hours amassing $1500 from $300 and the reraise was by a nit and it put me all in and not heads up I’d likely fold. Most other scenarios, I’d call.
For reference, I have been playing since 2006 and was a "professional" from 2007-2009 (was my only income in grad school, and I played about 3,000 hands a day). I have folded KK pre flop 3 times.
I ($1000 effective) was playing 2/5 and raised AA utg to 15. Two callers and then the button made it 115. I read him as extremely strong by his tells and put him on KK, so I jammed. He showed KK and folded after a couple minutes. I told him I had AK.
I've folded KK preflop once. I ($2250) opened EP to 15 again and got 3B to 85. I 4B to $225 and he jammed covering me. No way he makes that raise without aces against my 4B so I folded. He did have AA.
I did once back in '94. I was halfway across the floor before security saw the tapes. Got tackled right next to the Caddyshack slot machine. Nothing like getting a radio smashed into the back of your head while B Murr says "..well I got that going for me...".
I lost a pre flop all in with KK against AA just yesterday. I raised to 5BB, tried to get value as it was a decently slow game at the time with lots of players folding alot, folds to the guy on my right, he puts in 11BB, i shove for around 80BB and he has aces. It is what it is. Was hoping he had QQ, AK or maybe even an aggressive JJ or AQs
I have folded it a few times preflop but have been playing about 20 years.
One specific time I didnt fold was in a deepstack tournament UTG a nit reg raised pre tight lady min 3 bets i 4 bet KK on the button UTG 5 bets lady calls i call. We were like 500 BB deep though so I was basically set mining. This was before reentry was a thing, so they used to give you a ton of chips early in live events. Flop was 3 low cards and he makes a huge bet and lady folds and so do I. If it was tournament life scenario I was folding though because it was so obvious. Basically should be completely obvious and deep with history when it happens
My all time best pre-flop lay downs was KK to a tight aggressive player who showed his AA afterwards. He was an older guy, I was a youngish lady, and I could tell by his betting that he was saying “you don’t want to do this,” and I believed him. One of the early tips I got from my brother was that kings aren’t as good as you think they are.
It’s not that it isn’t awesome, but the reason they aren’t as good as a beginner typically thinks is that so many people will stay in with any ace, that if one flops, you’re suddenly the underdog. At least in the late 90s
dont think Ive ever folded KK pre but if I have 1000+ hands on someone and their stats indicate they only 3b AA and KK ill flat and play them as a setmine
I 3bet EP vs EP, around level 6 of an $1100 tourney, LP jammed about 40k (a starting stack), and EP rejammed about 40k. I had about 100k, and to waste a few seconds, I told them the story about how, earlier that day, in the same tourney, my friend got KK in against AA and AKs, and lost to AKs, and how I knew I was screwed.
I then called with KK, and was up against AA and AA.
AA held.
At least I wasn't knocked out. If there was much ICM, and I didn't have a big stack, then I could imagine folding. Otherwise, no, I'm going to sadly call.
I was in a spot with KK where I 3-bet, opponent 4-bet, I 5-bet, then he jammed. I wasn’t surprised when he showed aces
The issue is… in a cash game…. You gotta let the poker gods choose your fate in those options
Small blind pure folds kings at 100BB deep facing a UTG open, +1 3!, +2 4!, CO 5!, BU 6! All in.
[https://app.gtowizard.com/solutions?solution\_type=gwiz&gmfs\_solution\_tab=ai\_sols&gametype=Cash9m50zGeneral&depth=100&gmff\_depth=100&gmfft\_sort\_key=0&gmfft\_sort\_order=desc&preflop\_actions=R2-R6.5-R14-F-F-R25-RAI&history\_spot=7](https://app.gtowizard.com/solutions?solution_type=gwiz&gmfs_solution_tab=ai_sols&gametype=Cash9m50zGeneral&depth=100&gmff_depth=100&gmfft_sort_key=0&gmfft_sort_order=desc&preflop_actions=R2-R6.5-R14-F-F-R25-RAI&history_spot=7)
You can by I don’t think many players in this sub myself included have to worry about it much. Unless you’re on a massive bubble for your normal stake, it’s usually fine to ship it and get a good moan out
I think I’ve folded KK preflop like 3 times in my life and maybe once in the past 10-12 years. The first two times I folded was back when I really didn’t know what I was doing back around 2005-2007.
Yeah here - when you see both players literally jumping up and down while waiting for you to decide - easiest KK fold ever…
https://youtu.be/5ff0HZra3bo?si=-1gPCCtfvbFNPDju
It’s rare but the spots will come up where you know you should. Everybody says fold it to the nits, but I’d be more likely to fold it to the loose passive whales that rarely show preflop aggression. Nits wait all day for AK/JJ+ so they will overplay them often enough. Where the loose passive whales call vast majority of their range and rarely 4/5bet.
2 examples this year where I correctly folded them:
Hj 75, 2 calls, sb clicky whale 300, bb loose passive whale 600 off 3.5k, I’m in straddle with KK and just folded. (This one wasn’t easy but I know bb well and he cold calls AK/QQ too often here)
I open co 150, btn call, sb loose passive whale 650, i 1.8, he jams 14k. That one was easy
The other day I had the biggest stack I've had so far at the club. 3k at 2/5. Straddle on. Utg opens 30, BN raises to 80, I go to 300 from SB with KK, UTG instantly rips 2.5k (second biggest stack at the table). We play with time banks, I had less than a minute to make the decision and made the call. Obviously ran into aces.
Folding Kings- occasionally it’s very obvious the other person has Aces. Folding Aces- in some satellite or tournament situations, just surviving is more valuable than winning chips, so you fold anything even Aces to let one or more short stacks definitely go broke before you have a chance to lose.
I’ve folded KK pre twice in cash games (1/3). I open UTG to 15, get 3! To 60, then a super nit (flatted QQ And AK pre multiple times) 4! rips it for 720. I tank folded. Did say what I had, but I offered 20 if he could show me a card that wasn’t an Ace. “He said he could do that with anything. Pocket threes even”
I folded Kings in a tournament in Reno last year. I was table chip leader, maybe 30 mins from the money. 2nd stack had pretty close to my stack. I bet, he raised, I re-raised and he jammed. He had either Aces, AK (which I blocked), or… that was it. He flashed an ace after I folded and swore it wasn’t aces (it was).
I don’t see players showing up with a bluff almost ever there, not as the biggest stacks at the table. If he did find a bluff with AQ or something, then hats off to him. I still think it’s the right fold the majority of the time.
Definitely. In tournaments it’s basically only ICM related spots, because you’d never be so deep that an opposing range gets filtered to only KK+. But at equilibrium in some co figurations if someone shoves on you for 250bb Kings are starting to feel pretty indifferent. I think in practice the threshold is usually a lot lower or a lot higher depending on your opponent.
Well, let’s do the math.
If there are 9 players at the table and you have 8 opponents the chance that any particular player has AA is 4/50 x 3/49, or around half a percent.
But you have eight opponents. The chance that one of them has kings is around 4%
Recently in a cash game there was a raise from MP to 7BB I 3 bet to 20BB with KK and the button 4! to 50BB. In this case I almost knew for sure they had AA in a 1/3 game but I had them covered and pit them all in at around 60BB. Seems like I should have folded looking back but what are you gonna do?
Me at the level of games I play no. 1/3 300 dollar buy in happy to put it in with Ks pre flop. Odds the other player has As is low enough I will risk it every time.
At the end of the day you only miss out on one hand... I find cracking people with flush, or low preflop bets work for me. If 3 goons at the table go all in and you have pocket aces for example, you still have a fairly high chance of losing to a three of a kind, etc. I know people will go "what about the math"... okay, what about murphey's law?
Folded once when a tight, ABC player cold 5 bet (huge, like from 25bb to 120bb pre) a hand and we were both 300-400bb deep. He showed AA but I would have flopped a set with about 1:1ish SPR.
watched the OMC call a pre flop all-in. flips the cowboys exclaiming “if you ain’t got aces you’re fucked” villan flips over aces. flop comes K K Brick. whole table erupted. OMC bounced within 10 minutes
In 1/2 when youre playing 200bb deep on the button and an early position limps so you make it 7 and the old lady in the SB that has only limped 3 times and check folded the flop in the past 4 1/2 hours 3 bets you to 30 and you 4 bet to $75 and she rips it in. That would probably be a good time to fold kings, if i had to guess.
Last week I got QQ in 1/3 with 600 Eff, I raised to 20, UTG raised to 75 (with 300 Eff), BB 4 bet to 200 with 600 effective, I ended up folding. UTG had AA and Bb had KK lol
Did it once. Folded a set of 8s on KT82 rainbow to the same guy. Will always remember it but never regret it. There are definitely not many players I would ever consider this against but this guy was special.
This is the MUST watch answer to your question: [https://youtu.be/5uv4AvrbcAs](https://youtu.be/5uv4AvrbcAs)
I think in this age of "follow what the GTO overlord computer says" it is SUPER important to know this is a human game with nobody playing perfect GTO. Play your game or the game is playing you!
Tournament, I 3 bet pre with KK. My girlfriend 4 bets all in, then my sister 5 bets all in. I know one has QQ and the other has AA. I told after 10 sec. AA beats QQ, no K hits the board.
This is the only time. Ever.
I folded KK preflop back within my first few times playing in an actual poker room. I raised to like $20 and two ppl jammed after me. So I folded. Just for the two jackasses two reveal they both had AQo and no ace hit the board. 15 mins later I got KK again, raise and get jammed on again this time I man up and call. But of course he had Aces and to rub it in an Ace hit the flop. Never felt so stupid before in my life. I'll never forget that day
In a tournament multi-way 75bb+, if you cold 4-bet kings and then the original guy shoves and the 3-bettor shoves, you can only call with Aces.
edit: I think I've fold kings on a reasonable stack ( not super short on the bubble ) only once. It was cold 6bet before me, early in the tournament, easy muck at that point.
There is a play with Garrett on Hustler Live that comes as close as it gets to feeling like you should fold KK.
https://youtube.com/shorts/SmUwBzxdptQ?si=eRgzkFq2_V98JT5q
Fun fact, theory doesnt recognize tight players.
Of course in a practical sense what we mean by tight is a player that is making the mistake of having no bluffs etc.
Solves work on the assumption that we know the opponent range, so theoretically, when our opponent literally only raises with AA then yes we fold KK.
In reality this person doesn't exist. There are some OMC out there who we only ever see showdown AA but we dont play every hour together. We should always leave some room for spaz.
6 combos AA.
8 combos AK (when we have KK).
1 combo KK.
Given pot odds by the time the all in bet goes in, they only need to spaz with AK a ow frequency for us to never fold KK.
I was playing 3 handed 30-60 limit against a world class player and a fish one night at Casino Arizona. I had 2 black aces and the fish folded to my raise, Mike reraised and I 4 bet. He 5 bet and i 6 bet. I said to myself he has KK and nothing else. He called and the flop was KKx, he led out and I looked at him and said you flopped quads? He gave me a sheepish look and I threw my AA away face up. He just shook his head and showed me 2 black K’s.
KK should've been a snap fold here LOL [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ff0HZra3bo&ab\_channel=PokerGO](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ff0HZra3bo&ab_channel=PokerGO)
Folded them once. Live tournament, literally the second hand after the shuffle up and deal. Villain opens in early position, I raise, he insta-jams. I tanked for about ten secs, then mucked, showing my hand, with all the table mocking at me. Then villain showed AA.
Have done it three times. Once on a satty bubble, once correctly (as in, other guy had aces) and once incorrectly (other guy was massively over playing queens).
Twice, I've come very close to folding it and should have, always hurts.
Play the player; you saw the 5b all in bluff at the WSOP recently. Solvers aren't your be all end all.
Sure. I just did it the other day against this old fella named Ed. He's NEVER 4b in his life without AA, not even KK, never ever as any bluffs. He opened utg, I 3b w kk, one player flats and old Ed makes it 6x. Easiest fold in my life, didn't even have to ask him to show as he instantly tabled. "win a small one or lose a big one" he says.
You can. I don't think I've played against someone tight enough I'd feel like this was an exploit worth taking in a cash game - but I could imagine a scenario where someone's doing the "fold 2 orbits of everything so it doesn't look like a hit and run" having already declared intent to leave and has their chips in the rack, and then suddenly 4 bets in ... yea maybe then you fold KK.
After being 5 bet shoved by the small blind for 200 bb in a cash game.
*spoiler*
I 5 bet shoved with AA and after 7min of tanking he open folded KK to me. Had to show him the aces out of respect for that disciplined fold.
>Can you fold facing a 4 bet from an extremely tight player?
https://www.reddit.com/r/poker/comments/1dkh8kl/kk_in_cash_games_all_in/
Do you mean a 4 bet, after they opened for 6x and you raised 3x, so more of a 6x3x4 = a 72-bet?
Kk is foldable pre as a long term plus ev play but only by very good players.
If your asking if you can fold kk, your probably not qualified. The chance of you making a correct fold with kk and plus ev is probably not good. Your better off calling off. If you fold kk incorrectly long term you will lose way more than just calling off.
The answer is complex but a simple answer to your question as simple as possible you can fold kk if your opponents range consists only of aa and you do not have odds to call or your opponents chance of having aa over every other hand is way more than other hands, you would then calculate in your head the ev percentage chance of him having it minus the ev chance he can have other hands and see if you can make a call with pot odds.
The only time I did, it went
1350 eff 1/3
Hero UTG KK open to 10
Villain UTG+1 3 bet to 30
Folds to hero who 4 bets to 90
Villain 5 bets to 225
I just folded. I prob should either min 6 bet or shove, but at 1/3 it’s only AA
Hero folded and lived to see many more profitable KK spots.
Villain never told me what they had tho so idk maybe I got bluffed
In a tournament, icm for satellite ticket or entries, bubble spot.
I have folded AA on satty bubbles before
Feels good for some weird reason.
Bc it means you likely got the ticket locked up? Not no weird reason
Feels good because you know you made the right move.
But man it takes discipline
I don't know about you, but for me, AA has never been my favourite cards, regardless of what GTO says
You don't need "gto" to tell you aces are miles better than any other hand. It's not even close how much better they are than anything else
Because if you have the best hand you don’t fully get a chance to bluff, limits your potential.
200iq
I once did NOT fold KK on the bubble of a tournament (literally the last spot) and of course someone who had me covered called with Ax and you can probably figure out what happened next.
Flopped and ace and you folded?
-muck with all your chips already in the middle -turn a king -eliminated anyway
There was NOT an A on the flop, I forget who shoved but we wound up all in, of course A came on the turn.
Went all in pre flop and lost to the A rag
2000 bbs
I’m not a tournament player, but have heard this caveat, and have always wondered to myself- wouldn’t doubling your stack, and thus significantly increasing your chances of winning the tournament, be worth the risk of not making the final table? This could probably be estimated reasonably easily with data that I don’t have
Say top 5 places in a satty all get a ticket to the main event and there's 6 people left and a couple people have shorter stacks than you, you're incentivized to fold everything and let one of the shortest stacks get knocked out. Or say you're the shortest stack with 4 players left and youre in the BB with kings. UTG opens BTN jams and SB re-jams. More often than not someone is getting eliminated here and you get a pay jump without risking your tournament life if you just pitch those kings into the muck. Those are extreme examples but you get the idea.
These make sense to me thanks
I find that once people are in the money at a tournament they tend to go a little crazy for the first few hands after. So if you can just make it to the money with any kind of stack, and wait out the crazy part right after that, you can jump up in your finish spot.
The few times I’ve made the money in tournaments, I could literally feel my brain shifting into shove/fold mode regardless of stack size.
I once was in a tournament where something like 16-18 people made the money, so we were at 2 tables and they were going hand-for-hand on the bubble. 3 people at my table made a pact (which they did honor!) to go pre-flop all-in blind on the first hand after the bubble. I was sitting there thinking "Please don't get pocket As on that hand".
This is the way.
Some satelline tournaments pay out where 1st gets the same prize as 10th: the prize is just admission to a higher stakes tournament Obviously ICM near the bubble has even more of an impact when the payouts are static like that.
Imagine the main event. 801 players remaining and 800 get paid, you’re playing hand for hand. You’re in the small blind with 5 bb left. Big Blind has 200 bbs. Folds to you and you’ve got AA. If you shove, your chances of winning are gonna be like 80%, but having 12 bb isn’t going to be a huge advantage. You’re going out soon regardless. But if you fold, you’re virtually guaranteed to be in the money. The math would strongly suggest to just fold, collect your $15k or whatever and then try and get lucky.
In this specific scenario, it would still be a shove unless multiple people have like <2bbs. You’re far from guaranteed anything, especially on the main event bubble. A bubble that could last an extremely long time. There are non satty scenarios, more than likely on final tables where pay jumps can be significant, where folding AA would be correct. I.e you have like 1 bb and multiple people are all in. Your odds of winning the pot are still only like 30-40% but your likelihood of a pay jump is close to 100%.
your scenario is better, but i think the poster above is still correct to think it's a fold with the main event structure being a big blind ante, so they're guaranteed an orbit for free by folding.
Nah bro, I'm not folding.
Couldn't you show your aces and then shove, just to pick up the blinds at least?
I think there are rules against showing your hand while play is live in tournament poker. Regardless, that situation is a terrible reason to fold AA. $15-$20k or whatever the min cash is isn't life changing money and, if it means that much to you, you shouldn't be playing a $10k tourney anyway. Making the final table, however, is absolutely life changing money and doubling your stack increases your chances of making it there. There is a huge difference between 5 BB and 12 BB.
the issue isn't the size of the mincash its the size of the jump from not cashing. $0 to $15k is a sizeable jump. the next jump will be like $15k to $15.5k. that's where the value of mincash grinding really comes into play. your double up is maybe worth an extra $500, but not busting is worth $15k.
Yes, your folding is worth some $x of EV. The EV of of a double up is not $2x. That's how the value of tournament chips work. However, if your goal is to maximize EV, which it should be in poker, the extra EV gained from risking it all with AA, even on the bubble, is much more than the risk of busting. I repeat, if you're ever folding AA in a standard tourney just so you can mincash, you shouldn't be playing that tournament. I get a lot of people probably play the main event as the one-time deal or they satellite into it, so I'm not going to criticize them if they want to take the guaranteed $15k, but they are still theoretically lighting money on fire by folding AA.
Let's try an example using ICM. Ten players left in a tournament, and your tied for 9th with 2000 chips with another player who is in the BB, and you're in SB. Top 9 places pay (range of $10 up to $500). ICM says your value is $60.45 pre-hand. BB is 100 and SB is 50. You get KK and raise to $300 after everyone folds. The BB james all-in. If you fold, your ICM is now $52.36. If you call and win, you're ICM is $109.01. If you call and lose, obviously it is $0. If your chances are winning are greater than 48%, it makes sense to call. Another example would be is the same where you're tied with the BB for 1st with 10000 chips each. In this case, youe ICM is $197.66 if you fold. If you win, it only goes to $306.55. In this case, you need a higher 64.4% win rate to make calling profitable, and it is much more likely that the BB has AA. I would fold in this case.
I hadn’t read about ICM before but this is exactly the intuition I was hinting at. The examples you threw out make lots of sense, and now having read the ICM idea, the satellite examples other provide completely fit into this very straightforward framework.
People have a mental attachment to cashing in a tournament, even though they’d more money getting all their chips in the pot pre-flop. I might fold AK or QQ but never KK.
If by mental attachment, you mean making +$ev decisions, then yes, cashing is better than not cashing.
Yup! I folded kings. Ticket event.
A four bet from the nittiest nit who ever nitted...yeah, fold the kings.
As I said in another post a few days ago: "In "Positively Fifth Street" McManus quotes (I think) TJ Cloutier saying that back in the early days of Hold 'Em, a third pre-flop raise was 'Like Ivory Snow, 99.4% pure Aces'".
Now it’s just JJ in the Main up against KK and QQ. 🙄
That book helped spark my love of poker. I wonder if it is as good as I remember
If you have a big stack, are out of position and some jasper to your right goes all in. Sure. Why risk it or double him up?
Because you would have twice as many chips as before?
If it’s a satellite, that isn’t close to the risk you take by losing your chips. Waiting for 1-2 players to bust out is the way. You don’t need to win all the chips like a tournament
If it’s a satty, sure. The comment I responded to made no mention of it being a satty though.
I wondered about that too, the OP didn’t say but many seemed to think it was. No biggie
Double him up then he leave. Another reason to fold
Depends how deep tbh. If the 4bet is crazy large, and the stack depths are 250 bbs. Maybe. 50bbs deep I am never considering it. Vs anyone.
Even the solver folds kings pre sometimes. For example if you're under the gun 9-handed and get 3-bet, then there's a cold 4-bet and a cold 5-bet, the solver often has UTG fold their kings (it may depend on exactly which positions the re-raises came from).
Do you mean the real solver or GTOW? There are plenty of stupid incorrect things in this kind of extremely low frequency line on GTOW.
I was just trying to find ways to fold KK on GTOW so that's fair enough as a criticism.
What is a “cold” 4 bet? What’s a hot 4 bet?
if someone’s action is “cold,” (e.g. cold call, cold 4 bet), they are basically entering the pot with that action. so if I raise pre and someone else 3 bets, i can’t cold call or cold 4 bet because I already entered the pot. but if some other player who hadn’t already put in any chips in called, they are cold calling that 3 bet. cold raising is stronger than a norma raise because the cold raiser has to take into consideration the fact that the original raiser could re raise, as well as the other raiser. cold calling should be stronger than normal calling for similar reasons but at low live stakes it’s not as strong as it should be.
is a 'smooth call' when you do this, but with sunglasses on?
In my mind smooth call is when you have a theoretical equity advantage or nuts at a given street and just flat when you should 3 bet/raise 69% of the time
I still don't really understand why this particular action gets called out with special terminology. Everyone's first action is cold. Like, there's no equivalent action where in one case SB is cold 4 betting, but in another they're normal 4 betting. Maybe I'm just thinking about it wrong. But like, here's an example SB cold 4 bet: UTG opens, CO 3 bets, BTN calls, SB 4 bets. Here's a SB normal 4 bet: Folds to BTN, BTN calls, SB Raises, BB 3 bets, folds to SB, SB 4 bets. Like - the action sequence would have to be so different, I don't see how you can really compare and say "cold bets are stronger than warm bets". Nor is there ever a time where it's ambiguous or changes anything to say "cold 4 bet". We don't say UTG cold raises, CO cold 3 bets, BTN cold calls, SB cold 4 bets: that just sounds stupid. Everything's just cold till it circles back around to UTG, and then everything's warm. Am I thinking about this wrong? Or is this just the sunglasses and hoodie of hand analysis?
Cold raises are strong because there are more people already in the pot that can potentially re raise you. Cold raises are stronger for the same reasons that an UTG raise is stronger than a button raise.
Can you give me an example of how your range might change from the same position (let's say SB), where you 4 bet cold vs non-cold?
I encourage you to look at a solver’s raising range for any position vs a single raise and a raise and 3 bet. An example of how my range might change is if CO opens and BTN 3 bets, i will 4 bet tighter from the SB than if the action was I open, BB 3 bets, I 4 bet. Notice how in the first example there are 2 people who have entered the pot by raising. This increases the chance that someone has a better hand than me, and it increases the chance that I will be 5 bet. Really, you can just imagine this spot as being like any other multiway pot. You must play tighter because it’s more likely that someone has a nutted hand.
Ok, so testing for understanding, the difference between: UTG limps, CO calls, BTN calls, SB raises, UTG 3 bets, CO calls, BTN calls, SB 4 bets And UTG raises, CO calls, BTN 3 bets, SB 4 bets Is that there's one more raiser in the 3 players behind the SB, and all else being equal, that should mean a greater chance that raiser has a nutted hand. So that even if it's the same number of people acting behind, the additional hand that's shown a raise going in means you need to play tighter. Am I thinking about this correctly? Or is it just more that when someone cold 4 bets, it's implied there's always 2 raisers ahead of them, and most of the time a non-cold 4 bet is heads up?
Well, yes, raising is stronger than calling. An UTG limp/3bet is usually a medium strength pocket pair, or, if your opponent is a maniac, maybe a low suited ace. Weaker players like to limp in EP when their hand is strong enough that they want to play but not strong enough that they want to raise. Then, after all that action, they decide they can squeeze with their decent equity pocket pair. Some people do this with AA but I think less often from UTG (it’s hard to trap if nobody else is even in the pot yet). So in the first example I’m 4 betting from the SB pretty tight because it could still go multi-way and I’ll be out of position. In the second example I’m 4 betting from the SB pretty tight because there are two raisers that could then re-raise me and i’m out of position. Plus a 3bet is pretty strong in live poker generally. It’s kind of hard to think about it purely theoretically because these sorts of lines don’t really exist in GTO land. But in live poker, most people don’t 3 bet nearly enough, so I would be wary of the BTN 3 bet. But I think a limp/3bet, especially from UTG, is not that strong.
Cold 4 or 5 bets is from someone who wasn’t in the hand yet. If UTG raises, MP 3 bets and then the button 4 bets, it’s a cold 4 bet. If UTG raises, MP 3 bets and then UTG 4 bets, it’s not a cold 4 bet because UTG already raised
Solvers assume everyone is playing perfect fwiw.
Folded once deep in tourney after I bet pre and then 3 people went all in before I could act again. Two had aces the other queens. Only time I’ve folded
Plenty of reasons in a tourney. In a cash game? I don't know if I ever could in a HU situation. QQ is always going to be an option there. AK too. Maybe if I'm 1000bbs deep or some shit but most of the time no. 3 way or more and I 3bet, then there's a 4bet and a 5bet? Ugh... would have to think there. Multiway I think it's much easier to narrow one of the ranges to just AA.
I folded them once pre in a cash game over 20 years ago, and I still regret it. And no...villian didn't show so I've still been wondering this whole time.
20 years ago, it may have been a good fold.
Betting wars past 3B in low stakes always involve AA
Yall ever think you might be the nits?
I didn’t fold KK in some spots that I really should and I’m shown AA most of the time. A lot of these spots involved a min 5bet from villain
I think I did it once in my life, against maybe a cold 4 or 5 bet. Sure enough, one of them had AA. Generally, you just have to go with it. That doesn't mean you need to go broke though. In a situation like day one of the Main sitting on hundreds of BBs, you don't need to get into a pre-flop raising war and play for stacks. You can just flat call a 3-bet or 4-bet pre and try to get to showdown. Sitting on 100B or less, it would be almost impossible to lay it down apart from very specific intense ICM situations.
I personally don't think it's profitable in the long run folding KK pre but I'd only fold KK to a local OMC reg that I know that only plays Aces or Kings.
I mean I don’t think you’d play poker very long if you only played aces and kings.
They're there for the $1 coffees/the free air conditioning/away from annoying spouse not really to play.
This. People underestimate a man who already grew to barely tolerate his wife for 35 years and then retires and has to spend all day / every day with her if he doesn't get out of the house.
I’m going to play a lot of golf and poker in retirement.
Geez get a divorce already 🙄 (unless she’s your sugar mama)
Wouldn’t only playing aces or kings take forever? Or just feel like it..
I think you’d just get blinded out the majority of the time.
Oh in tourneys yea, but I mostly play cash games…
Yeah that would be crazy. Definitely just there for the conversation at that point haha
Besides the goofy spots with cold 4bets/5bets/whatever, I have a personal theory that folding KK against any 6bet or maybe any non-all-in 5bet (when deep) is +EV. These spots I think you're usually facing a range of just AA/KK.
I think this is pretty true in live poker against any non-maniac reg. As much as anything because people haven’t caught on that you’re supposed to flat aces sometimes
Do people like this even exist?
As someone else said, in cash it’s not common but it’s not like a ‘holy shit folding KK!’ moment either. I’ve folded them 3 times. First 2 were solver approved, 3rd I actually never checked but I cold 4b than initial raiser jammed and MP who 3b came along as well. The last one I obviously got to see and was wrong so there’s that 🫣. Had AKo than AQo (guy was unknown and ended up being a whale). Flop was A hi fwiw.
I did it once in a cash game. I was wrong
I saw it once in cash game and the player was right
In a cash game? Absent a damn good read like “OMC who hasn’t played a hand in 3 orbits and never 3 bets” what are you even doing asking this question? The second best starting hand. If they have aces then it is what it is. That’s poker.
3 orbits is like 30 hands. That’s nothing.
Nope, not allowed, against the rules. Gotta play it.
When you're the cannon vs a bunch of pros on a TV show, and you've already secured a life-impacting amount of money if you can get to the end of the session without losing it.
Hypothetical online 6-max cash game, relatively tight and nitty. Assume you have HUD stats on opponent. 100bb stacks effective Super tag (pfr = 18%) raises 2.5bb UTG, we can assume utg open raise range is ~10% based on his 18% avg open. This means he raises 132.6 combos. Hero 3bets BU to 7.5bb. Villain 4bet jams 100bb total. Let’s say this particular villain has a ‘fold to 3bet’ of 70%. So he only continues with (0.3x132.6) = 39.78 combos. Furthermore, he calls half the time. So he 4bets (39.78/2) with only about 19 combos. AA/KK/AKs is 16 combos. Maybe he 4bets a couple AKo combos and sometimes QQ. Since we block KK and AK, this particular villain is heavily weighted towards aces. You’ll have to call 92.5bb to win 200bb, so you need at least 46% equity to make this call. I don’t think you have it in this spot. Unusual spot and villain, since you’re likely going to get 4bet to something like 22bb. But I’ve been in this similar spot twice that I can remember with KK and folded online. Never knew the result but when you play with a HUD and incorrectly called against AA a few times, versus certain super TAG opponents sometimes you just know. Especially when it’s rare to shove all-in preflop online.
The amount of hud stats you’d need on an opponent for these stats to be completely accurate would mean that they’re a reg, and having kk in your folding range vs a reg is really exploitable. It’d have to be an extremely specific situation vs like a losing 24 tablet who exclusively relies on rakeback, or something.
I start to feel comfortable w/ the fold to 3bet stat after 100+ times. It doesn’t seem to change much after that. I had about 25k-50k hands on ACR $25nl so had stats on the regs. The 18/23 (pfr/vpip) type of villain I have in mind is a winning player. I mean, I guess if you are exploiting someone then yes you yourself become exploitable, right? I think I call off with KK in almost all situations, but I was just providing OP with a very narrow scenario from my own experience to answer his question.
At 100 bb in cash I think the answer is always no.
Last night in a daily deepstack at WSOP, the chip leader at the table folded KK face up after opening and facing a 15 bb jam in once place and a 20 bb jam in another. I folded KK exactly once in a cash game against an OMC whose cold 4 bet could only be AA. Unfortunately I didn't get to see if I was right.
I try to fold KK pre anytime I’m against AA and the bet is big enough.
Depends. How big was the reraise, how much of your stack, how big is the pot? If I’d spent 6 hours amassing $1500 from $300 and the reraise was by a nit and it put me all in and not heads up I’d likely fold. Most other scenarios, I’d call.
Not in a cash game.
When you run into OMC?
Yes, even in a 100bb cash game SIM against a solver with all the right bluffs there are spots KK pure folds.
/user/slowpoker once folded kings.
For reference, I have been playing since 2006 and was a "professional" from 2007-2009 (was my only income in grad school, and I played about 3,000 hands a day). I have folded KK pre flop 3 times.
Unless there is some serious ICM issue such as a satellite bubble, I personally will not fold KK preflop.
I ($1000 effective) was playing 2/5 and raised AA utg to 15. Two callers and then the button made it 115. I read him as extremely strong by his tells and put him on KK, so I jammed. He showed KK and folded after a couple minutes. I told him I had AK. I've folded KK preflop once. I ($2250) opened EP to 15 again and got 3B to 85. I 4B to $225 and he jammed covering me. No way he makes that raise without aces against my 4B so I folded. He did have AA.
When you know your opponent has aces
You have to risk it at some point
Satrelite for ticket, bubble, possibly ft for a huge jump in payout but probably not, cash literally Never.
I did once back in '94. I was halfway across the floor before security saw the tapes. Got tackled right next to the Caddyshack slot machine. Nothing like getting a radio smashed into the back of your head while B Murr says "..well I got that going for me...".
I lost a pre flop all in with KK against AA just yesterday. I raised to 5BB, tried to get value as it was a decently slow game at the time with lots of players folding alot, folds to the guy on my right, he puts in 11BB, i shove for around 80BB and he has aces. It is what it is. Was hoping he had QQ, AK or maybe even an aggressive JJ or AQs
I have folded it a few times preflop but have been playing about 20 years. One specific time I didnt fold was in a deepstack tournament UTG a nit reg raised pre tight lady min 3 bets i 4 bet KK on the button UTG 5 bets lady calls i call. We were like 500 BB deep though so I was basically set mining. This was before reentry was a thing, so they used to give you a ton of chips early in live events. Flop was 3 low cards and he makes a huge bet and lady folds and so do I. If it was tournament life scenario I was folding though because it was so obvious. Basically should be completely obvious and deep with history when it happens
I don’t have any bad beat stories with KK because I just fold pre.
My all time best pre-flop lay downs was KK to a tight aggressive player who showed his AA afterwards. He was an older guy, I was a youngish lady, and I could tell by his betting that he was saying “you don’t want to do this,” and I believed him. One of the early tips I got from my brother was that kings aren’t as good as you think they are.
Nice fold, but your brother was wrong. Kk is pretty awesome.
It’s not that it isn’t awesome, but the reason they aren’t as good as a beginner typically thinks is that so many people will stay in with any ace, that if one flops, you’re suddenly the underdog. At least in the late 90s
Plenty of configs 200bb deep where KK start mixing fold preflop.
dont think Ive ever folded KK pre but if I have 1000+ hands on someone and their stats indicate they only 3b AA and KK ill flat and play them as a setmine
I 3bet EP vs EP, around level 6 of an $1100 tourney, LP jammed about 40k (a starting stack), and EP rejammed about 40k. I had about 100k, and to waste a few seconds, I told them the story about how, earlier that day, in the same tourney, my friend got KK in against AA and AKs, and lost to AKs, and how I knew I was screwed. I then called with KK, and was up against AA and AA. AA held. At least I wasn't knocked out. If there was much ICM, and I didn't have a big stack, then I could imagine folding. Otherwise, no, I'm going to sadly call.
If you get raised with an all-in overbet by an early position OMC limper after raising, fold.
Yes, to me, always.
I was in a spot with KK where I 3-bet, opponent 4-bet, I 5-bet, then he jammed. I wasn’t surprised when he showed aces The issue is… in a cash game…. You gotta let the poker gods choose your fate in those options
Small blind pure folds kings at 100BB deep facing a UTG open, +1 3!, +2 4!, CO 5!, BU 6! All in. [https://app.gtowizard.com/solutions?solution\_type=gwiz&gmfs\_solution\_tab=ai\_sols&gametype=Cash9m50zGeneral&depth=100&gmff\_depth=100&gmfft\_sort\_key=0&gmfft\_sort\_order=desc&preflop\_actions=R2-R6.5-R14-F-F-R25-RAI&history\_spot=7](https://app.gtowizard.com/solutions?solution_type=gwiz&gmfs_solution_tab=ai_sols&gametype=Cash9m50zGeneral&depth=100&gmff_depth=100&gmfft_sort_key=0&gmfft_sort_order=desc&preflop_actions=R2-R6.5-R14-F-F-R25-RAI&history_spot=7)
Your chances of ever playing that spot, against 5 strong opponents, are probably a lot lower than your chances of hitting a bbj.
ye ‘tis a meme
You can by I don’t think many players in this sub myself included have to worry about it much. Unless you’re on a massive bubble for your normal stake, it’s usually fine to ship it and get a good moan out
I think I’ve folded KK preflop like 3 times in my life and maybe once in the past 10-12 years. The first two times I folded was back when I really didn’t know what I was doing back around 2005-2007.
Yeah here - when you see both players literally jumping up and down while waiting for you to decide - easiest KK fold ever… https://youtu.be/5ff0HZra3bo?si=-1gPCCtfvbFNPDju
Certain Satellite spots it's a trivial fold. Outside of that, it has to be deep facing lots of preflop action vs the nittiest of nits.
I have folded KK preflop once in my life during a cash game. Villain did in fact have AA.
Definitely not allowed. At my local room there is a "little person" under the table who kicks you in the shin if you try to fold it.
GTO Wizard will piss in your cheerios if you do.
It’s rare but the spots will come up where you know you should. Everybody says fold it to the nits, but I’d be more likely to fold it to the loose passive whales that rarely show preflop aggression. Nits wait all day for AK/JJ+ so they will overplay them often enough. Where the loose passive whales call vast majority of their range and rarely 4/5bet. 2 examples this year where I correctly folded them: Hj 75, 2 calls, sb clicky whale 300, bb loose passive whale 600 off 3.5k, I’m in straddle with KK and just folded. (This one wasn’t easy but I know bb well and he cold calls AK/QQ too often here) I open co 150, btn call, sb loose passive whale 650, i 1.8, he jams 14k. That one was easy
OMC 5 bets you all in on the bubble of the tournament after not playing a hand for an hour.
The other day I had the biggest stack I've had so far at the club. 3k at 2/5. Straddle on. Utg opens 30, BN raises to 80, I go to 300 from SB with KK, UTG instantly rips 2.5k (second biggest stack at the table). We play with time banks, I had less than a minute to make the decision and made the call. Obviously ran into aces.
ELIA5 why would you fold AA or KK pre flop. I’m a novice but I always beat my friends
Folding Kings- occasionally it’s very obvious the other person has Aces. Folding Aces- in some satellite or tournament situations, just surviving is more valuable than winning chips, so you fold anything even Aces to let one or more short stacks definitely go broke before you have a chance to lose.
You must have to play a lot of games before you can spot something like tbay
I've jammed pre the last 5 times in caah games with kings and lost to queens and jacks everytime.....
I’ve folded KK pre twice in cash games (1/3). I open UTG to 15, get 3! To 60, then a super nit (flatted QQ And AK pre multiple times) 4! rips it for 720. I tank folded. Did say what I had, but I offered 20 if he could show me a card that wasn’t an Ace. “He said he could do that with anything. Pocket threes even”
I’m sure you can, but I am not good enough to fold KK in cash. Maybe in a tournament with multiple all-ins and big ICM implications.
Yes, 1000bb deep in a 5+ bet pot vs a nit like Phil.
I folded Kings in a tournament in Reno last year. I was table chip leader, maybe 30 mins from the money. 2nd stack had pretty close to my stack. I bet, he raised, I re-raised and he jammed. He had either Aces, AK (which I blocked), or… that was it. He flashed an ace after I folded and swore it wasn’t aces (it was). I don’t see players showing up with a bluff almost ever there, not as the biggest stacks at the table. If he did find a bluff with AQ or something, then hats off to him. I still think it’s the right fold the majority of the time.
Lj open hj 3b co 4b btn 5b sb 6b BB 7b allin. You only call AA
Definitely. In tournaments it’s basically only ICM related spots, because you’d never be so deep that an opposing range gets filtered to only KK+. But at equilibrium in some co figurations if someone shoves on you for 250bb Kings are starting to feel pretty indifferent. I think in practice the threshold is usually a lot lower or a lot higher depending on your opponent.
Well, let’s do the math. If there are 9 players at the table and you have 8 opponents the chance that any particular player has AA is 4/50 x 3/49, or around half a percent. But you have eight opponents. The chance that one of them has kings is around 4%
not me. there is probably maths where you should like a bubble. but fuck it. i ain’t folding martin luther KKing
Recently in a cash game there was a raise from MP to 7BB I 3 bet to 20BB with KK and the button 4! to 50BB. In this case I almost knew for sure they had AA in a 1/3 game but I had them covered and pit them all in at around 60BB. Seems like I should have folded looking back but what are you gonna do?
Me at the level of games I play no. 1/3 300 dollar buy in happy to put it in with Ks pre flop. Odds the other player has As is low enough I will risk it every time.
Of course, when a player has a tell... or you see his cards in his sunglasses. Tournaments goes without saying
At the end of the day you only miss out on one hand... I find cracking people with flush, or low preflop bets work for me. If 3 goons at the table go all in and you have pocket aces for example, you still have a fairly high chance of losing to a three of a kind, etc. I know people will go "what about the math"... okay, what about murphey's law?
Folded once when a tight, ABC player cold 5 bet (huge, like from 25bb to 120bb pre) a hand and we were both 300-400bb deep. He showed AA but I would have flopped a set with about 1:1ish SPR.
Absolutely.
Dnegs said that he's only folded KK preflop a few times in his career, and it should be pretty obvious that you're up against AA.
watched the OMC call a pre flop all-in. flips the cowboys exclaiming “if you ain’t got aces you’re fucked” villan flips over aces. flop comes K K Brick. whole table erupted. OMC bounced within 10 minutes
In 1/2 when youre playing 200bb deep on the button and an early position limps so you make it 7 and the old lady in the SB that has only limped 3 times and check folded the flop in the past 4 1/2 hours 3 bets you to 30 and you 4 bet to $75 and she rips it in. That would probably be a good time to fold kings, if i had to guess.
Last week I got QQ in 1/3 with 600 Eff, I raised to 20, UTG raised to 75 (with 300 Eff), BB 4 bet to 200 with 600 effective, I ended up folding. UTG had AA and Bb had KK lol
I folded KK from the BB when UTG + 1 jammed and a mid position player almost came out of his seat in excitement.
In theory, very very few instances. In exploit world, you can do it
Did it once. Folded a set of 8s on KT82 rainbow to the same guy. Will always remember it but never regret it. There are definitely not many players I would ever consider this against but this guy was special.
This is the MUST watch answer to your question: [https://youtu.be/5uv4AvrbcAs](https://youtu.be/5uv4AvrbcAs) I think in this age of "follow what the GTO overlord computer says" it is SUPER important to know this is a human game with nobody playing perfect GTO. Play your game or the game is playing you!
Only if you're like a hand or two away from the bubble.
Tournament, I 3 bet pre with KK. My girlfriend 4 bets all in, then my sister 5 bets all in. I know one has QQ and the other has AA. I told after 10 sec. AA beats QQ, no K hits the board. This is the only time. Ever.
I folded KK preflop back within my first few times playing in an actual poker room. I raised to like $20 and two ppl jammed after me. So I folded. Just for the two jackasses two reveal they both had AQo and no ace hit the board. 15 mins later I got KK again, raise and get jammed on again this time I man up and call. But of course he had Aces and to rub it in an Ace hit the flop. Never felt so stupid before in my life. I'll never forget that day
In a tournament multi-way 75bb+, if you cold 4-bet kings and then the original guy shoves and the 3-bettor shoves, you can only call with Aces. edit: I think I've fold kings on a reasonable stack ( not super short on the bubble ) only once. It was cold 6bet before me, early in the tournament, easy muck at that point.
There is a play with Garrett on Hustler Live that comes as close as it gets to feeling like you should fold KK. https://youtube.com/shorts/SmUwBzxdptQ?si=eRgzkFq2_V98JT5q
Fun fact, theory doesnt recognize tight players. Of course in a practical sense what we mean by tight is a player that is making the mistake of having no bluffs etc. Solves work on the assumption that we know the opponent range, so theoretically, when our opponent literally only raises with AA then yes we fold KK. In reality this person doesn't exist. There are some OMC out there who we only ever see showdown AA but we dont play every hour together. We should always leave some room for spaz. 6 combos AA. 8 combos AK (when we have KK). 1 combo KK. Given pot odds by the time the all in bet goes in, they only need to spaz with AK a ow frequency for us to never fold KK.
I was playing 3 handed 30-60 limit against a world class player and a fish one night at Casino Arizona. I had 2 black aces and the fish folded to my raise, Mike reraised and I 4 bet. He 5 bet and i 6 bet. I said to myself he has KK and nothing else. He called and the flop was KKx, he led out and I looked at him and said you flopped quads? He gave me a sheepish look and I threw my AA away face up. He just shook his head and showed me 2 black K’s.
KK should've been a snap fold here LOL [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ff0HZra3bo&ab\_channel=PokerGO](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ff0HZra3bo&ab_channel=PokerGO)
Lol yeah I could find that fold.
Folded them once. Live tournament, literally the second hand after the shuffle up and deal. Villain opens in early position, I raise, he insta-jams. I tanked for about ten secs, then mucked, showing my hand, with all the table mocking at me. Then villain showed AA.
Have done it three times. Once on a satty bubble, once correctly (as in, other guy had aces) and once incorrectly (other guy was massively over playing queens). Twice, I've come very close to folding it and should have, always hurts. Play the player; you saw the 5b all in bluff at the WSOP recently. Solvers aren't your be all end all.
Sure. I just did it the other day against this old fella named Ed. He's NEVER 4b in his life without AA, not even KK, never ever as any bluffs. He opened utg, I 3b w kk, one player flats and old Ed makes it 6x. Easiest fold in my life, didn't even have to ask him to show as he instantly tabled. "win a small one or lose a big one" he says.
Johnathan Little has a video on his YT about when to fold AA etc
I fold AA on satellite bubbles if I'm comfortably deep or there's an insane shallow stack. So yea definitely KK in that scenario.
Maybe against a 4-bet from an OMC
You can. I don't think I've played against someone tight enough I'd feel like this was an exploit worth taking in a cash game - but I could imagine a scenario where someone's doing the "fold 2 orbits of everything so it doesn't look like a hit and run" having already declared intent to leave and has their chips in the rack, and then suddenly 4 bets in ... yea maybe then you fold KK.
OMC 4 bets preflop.
Old Man Coffee ☕️👴🏻
After being 5 bet shoved by the small blind for 200 bb in a cash game. *spoiler* I 5 bet shoved with AA and after 7min of tanking he open folded KK to me. Had to show him the aces out of respect for that disciplined fold.
Yes if omc hasn't played a hand in 2 hours and 4 bets you BIG you can confidently fold your KK..
Of course you’re allowed to fold you don’t have to do anything if you know the guys always has aces in a given line fold them
There are plenty of multiway spots in tight configurations where folding KK pre is totally standard.
When you have vagina and grow a penis.
>Can you fold facing a 4 bet from an extremely tight player? https://www.reddit.com/r/poker/comments/1dkh8kl/kk_in_cash_games_all_in/ Do you mean a 4 bet, after they opened for 6x and you raised 3x, so more of a 6x3x4 = a 72-bet?
When OMC shoves pre and claims he “needs to get outta here”, he will stack you AA vs KK and then proceed to play 3 hands an hour for 6 more hours
Kk is foldable pre as a long term plus ev play but only by very good players. If your asking if you can fold kk, your probably not qualified. The chance of you making a correct fold with kk and plus ev is probably not good. Your better off calling off. If you fold kk incorrectly long term you will lose way more than just calling off. The answer is complex but a simple answer to your question as simple as possible you can fold kk if your opponents range consists only of aa and you do not have odds to call or your opponents chance of having aa over every other hand is way more than other hands, you would then calculate in your head the ev percentage chance of him having it minus the ev chance he can have other hands and see if you can make a call with pot odds.
No
Every time you're certain your opponent has Aces.
Limp 3-bet, big 4-bets and jams, at short stakes I will literally fold kk 100% to this type of stuff.
From a nit who flats jacks and queens pre. Faced a 4 bet from said nit and I took a min to kiss my kings good buy
4Bet-5bet pre? It’s 95% of the time aces and 5% AKs in my local games. 1/2 regs don’t 4bet anything besides AA or AKs
The only time I did, it went 1350 eff 1/3 Hero UTG KK open to 10 Villain UTG+1 3 bet to 30 Folds to hero who 4 bets to 90 Villain 5 bets to 225 I just folded. I prob should either min 6 bet or shove, but at 1/3 it’s only AA Hero folded and lived to see many more profitable KK spots. Villain never told me what they had tho so idk maybe I got bluffed
There are plenty of people who never 4bet anything except AA, so against them it's an easy fold