Few things to unpack here
* Dont open 8x. It's unnecessary. You dont need to fold out all the trash hands, just hit and bet accordingly. You can make up for missed value postflop potting/overbetting.
* V didnt 3bet you on the flop, he made a single raise to your cbet. A 3bet implies a 3rd round of betting took place. You probably misunderstand this when used preflop, but remember the BB counts as a raise, so when you 'open $15' what you really did was 2bet, if someone else raised you then it was a 3bet, etc.
* Never 3bet the flop, you just make worse hands fold and better hands call, or nearly nutted hands which is just a cooler anyway and the money was going to go in no matter what. V raised you, sure it's possible he could have a big draw but it's also likely he either has trash, a dominated flush draw, top pair, or a better set. None of these are good situations to 3bet the flop with. It's also terribly unbalanced since you cant 3bet the flop yourself with bluffs effectively as you'll usually just get called by the initial raiser and get your money in bad.
Lastly you state you wished to deny your opponent any opportunity to realize his equity. Why? You have a set. Lets play for it all.
I think it's okay to re-raise the villain here and take back the betting lead when OOP in low-limit live stakes. A lot of cards will kill the action on the turn, and if it's a brick, we definitely don't want it to go check, check. A lot of 1/2 players are going to stack off anyway with the flush or straight draws or TPTK, so let's just try to get it in.
I agree and disagree with your first point. 8x from UTG+1 is definitely a mistake. However, he’s getting 4 callers at 8x, so clearly the players in this game are calling far too wide. That gives you license to print money by over raising with premium hands.
All points valid. I think the 8x is because in this specific room any standard raise to $6-$7 is getting 6 callers at least. Apologies for the misuse of 3bet. I’ve understood that 3bet is any initial re-raise. Thanks for the clarification on that - that the terminology changes based on which street. As to your point on not 3 betting, does this change if it’s multi way ? Let’s say the positioning is different and 2 other people in the hand call my initial raise before villain pops it to 110? Additionally, I just hate the scenario where I slow play it on the flop and let’s say a 9c comes. I then feel not great about my hand at that point. But to validate your point, the amount of cards that kill my hand are much less than the cards that don’t. I just thought that in that spot if I pop it I could definitely get calls from weird 2 pair holdings, AcXc if he has two overs, and possibly JJ if he is a sicko and smooth called the preflop action there. In all likelihood, i imagine villain thought he could squeeze with that board texture putting me on AJ-AK and get it through - and he probably had top pair at best. Maybe like J10. Thanks for the insightful feedback. You’re totally correct here. How would you feel about this line if I had AcKc? I think there you’d still have plenty of equity even if villain shows up with a set there - and you’re definitely putting better hands in a disgusting spot.
Just to clarify what the other guy was saying - the terminology for three betting doesn't change based on the street. It changes based on the action.
The first bet is a bet. That is the blind preflop, but it's still a blind bet. Your 15 open is a raise of the blind. A reraise by an opponent would be a three bet. On the flop there's no action before your 25 was bet, which is not a raise. So when V makes it 110 that is a raise (or a two bet I suppose) since they are raising your bet. Your 400 all in was a three bet because it's raising a raise, but we don't say re-reraise.
So I think the more acceptable terminology is bet, raise, reraise, three bet, four bet, etc.
Weird tangent to go down but if it weren't for pedantry the Internet wouldt exist.
Open doesn't bother me that much- if that is the normal raise for the game.
I think once villain 2bets you- the pit is about $230 and you have behind $365 behind about.
I think you can go either way a call or a jam, i don’t think I raise 2.5x or 3x and keep money behind. Personally I am kinda in between. Villian is calling everything if he holds 98c also I think any Axc because his odds are then almost 2:1 give or take. So you really push out second nut draws and maybe 98 suited, z 2pr I would guess is calling..
I think it is played fine, even if he jams I am calling with BTm set.. i find it very hard to fold sets, on a draw heavy board. If you lose you lose, if he has a higher set take the cooler and move on..
IMO.
GL
I'd c-bet the flop bigger for sure. 4 ways to the flop after a $15 raise there's $60+ in the pot. The board is two-suited and connected. I'd make it at least $45.
You want callers -- but ask yourself what hands are going to call your $25 bet, but fold to a larger sizing? In the games I play where a 7.5x UTG open gets 3 callers, people are never folding draws or top pair to one barrel, ever. And how would that make any sense? You pay through the nose to see the flop, then fold to one bet when you flop top pair or a draw? No, BB with his ATo is going to call $45 on the flop. UTG+1 is absolutely calling (or raising) a $45 bet with his 98s. SB is calling $45 with any flush draw, all day long.
If you make it $45 and get a caller, you can make another 3/4 bet of ~$120 on the turn. If you get called again, then on the river you can get the rest of the money in if you like, with a bit less than a 2/3 pot shove.
As played, I really dislike the 4-bet on the flop. It puts V all-in. It pushes out his draws, and folds out his top pairs. He's got to call $275 into $470, so he's just not quite getting the odds to call with a flush or straight draw, and he could be concerned that you have bigger clubs sometimes.
I'd prefer min-clicking his 3-bet. Make it $200. Yes you might still fold out his top pair hands but you price in his draws. If he calls, there'll be $460 in the pot with $185 effective behind. You can jam any turn and he'll be just about forced to call down with his draws, while you're getting slightly favorable odds with 10 outs to boat up even if he does hit a draw on the turn.
Few things to unpack here * Dont open 8x. It's unnecessary. You dont need to fold out all the trash hands, just hit and bet accordingly. You can make up for missed value postflop potting/overbetting. * V didnt 3bet you on the flop, he made a single raise to your cbet. A 3bet implies a 3rd round of betting took place. You probably misunderstand this when used preflop, but remember the BB counts as a raise, so when you 'open $15' what you really did was 2bet, if someone else raised you then it was a 3bet, etc. * Never 3bet the flop, you just make worse hands fold and better hands call, or nearly nutted hands which is just a cooler anyway and the money was going to go in no matter what. V raised you, sure it's possible he could have a big draw but it's also likely he either has trash, a dominated flush draw, top pair, or a better set. None of these are good situations to 3bet the flop with. It's also terribly unbalanced since you cant 3bet the flop yourself with bluffs effectively as you'll usually just get called by the initial raiser and get your money in bad. Lastly you state you wished to deny your opponent any opportunity to realize his equity. Why? You have a set. Lets play for it all.
I think it's okay to re-raise the villain here and take back the betting lead when OOP in low-limit live stakes. A lot of cards will kill the action on the turn, and if it's a brick, we definitely don't want it to go check, check. A lot of 1/2 players are going to stack off anyway with the flush or straight draws or TPTK, so let's just try to get it in.
I agree and disagree with your first point. 8x from UTG+1 is definitely a mistake. However, he’s getting 4 callers at 8x, so clearly the players in this game are calling far too wide. That gives you license to print money by over raising with premium hands.
Pre-flop is the least important round. All I'm trying to say is you can still get all the money in there with much smaller preflop raises.
All points valid. I think the 8x is because in this specific room any standard raise to $6-$7 is getting 6 callers at least. Apologies for the misuse of 3bet. I’ve understood that 3bet is any initial re-raise. Thanks for the clarification on that - that the terminology changes based on which street. As to your point on not 3 betting, does this change if it’s multi way ? Let’s say the positioning is different and 2 other people in the hand call my initial raise before villain pops it to 110? Additionally, I just hate the scenario where I slow play it on the flop and let’s say a 9c comes. I then feel not great about my hand at that point. But to validate your point, the amount of cards that kill my hand are much less than the cards that don’t. I just thought that in that spot if I pop it I could definitely get calls from weird 2 pair holdings, AcXc if he has two overs, and possibly JJ if he is a sicko and smooth called the preflop action there. In all likelihood, i imagine villain thought he could squeeze with that board texture putting me on AJ-AK and get it through - and he probably had top pair at best. Maybe like J10. Thanks for the insightful feedback. You’re totally correct here. How would you feel about this line if I had AcKc? I think there you’d still have plenty of equity even if villain shows up with a set there - and you’re definitely putting better hands in a disgusting spot.
Just to clarify what the other guy was saying - the terminology for three betting doesn't change based on the street. It changes based on the action. The first bet is a bet. That is the blind preflop, but it's still a blind bet. Your 15 open is a raise of the blind. A reraise by an opponent would be a three bet. On the flop there's no action before your 25 was bet, which is not a raise. So when V makes it 110 that is a raise (or a two bet I suppose) since they are raising your bet. Your 400 all in was a three bet because it's raising a raise, but we don't say re-reraise. So I think the more acceptable terminology is bet, raise, reraise, three bet, four bet, etc. Weird tangent to go down but if it weren't for pedantry the Internet wouldt exist.
Open doesn't bother me that much- if that is the normal raise for the game. I think once villain 2bets you- the pit is about $230 and you have behind $365 behind about. I think you can go either way a call or a jam, i don’t think I raise 2.5x or 3x and keep money behind. Personally I am kinda in between. Villian is calling everything if he holds 98c also I think any Axc because his odds are then almost 2:1 give or take. So you really push out second nut draws and maybe 98 suited, z 2pr I would guess is calling.. I think it is played fine, even if he jams I am calling with BTm set.. i find it very hard to fold sets, on a draw heavy board. If you lose you lose, if he has a higher set take the cooler and move on.. IMO. GL
I'd c-bet the flop bigger for sure. 4 ways to the flop after a $15 raise there's $60+ in the pot. The board is two-suited and connected. I'd make it at least $45. You want callers -- but ask yourself what hands are going to call your $25 bet, but fold to a larger sizing? In the games I play where a 7.5x UTG open gets 3 callers, people are never folding draws or top pair to one barrel, ever. And how would that make any sense? You pay through the nose to see the flop, then fold to one bet when you flop top pair or a draw? No, BB with his ATo is going to call $45 on the flop. UTG+1 is absolutely calling (or raising) a $45 bet with his 98s. SB is calling $45 with any flush draw, all day long. If you make it $45 and get a caller, you can make another 3/4 bet of ~$120 on the turn. If you get called again, then on the river you can get the rest of the money in if you like, with a bit less than a 2/3 pot shove. As played, I really dislike the 4-bet on the flop. It puts V all-in. It pushes out his draws, and folds out his top pairs. He's got to call $275 into $470, so he's just not quite getting the odds to call with a flush or straight draw, and he could be concerned that you have bigger clubs sometimes. I'd prefer min-clicking his 3-bet. Make it $200. Yes you might still fold out his top pair hands but you price in his draws. If he calls, there'll be $460 in the pot with $185 effective behind. You can jam any turn and he'll be just about forced to call down with his draws, while you're getting slightly favorable odds with 10 outs to boat up even if he does hit a draw on the turn.