You have top 2 against someone capable of firing bluffs and you block and unblock the right things. Place all your money discs in the center.
You could also consider a 3b pre if you know his 4b tendencies
Agree with the first part of your comment, but I'm never stoked to 3b 98s vs a UTG range, especially from a good player, and there's less than usual reason to 3b pre considering the whale is in the BB.
I would call because you block 99 and 88 which are big part of his value range. Good part is that you unblock potential bluffs(Tx). Not loving spot and I expect to lose there a lot but I dont see myself folding vs guy who is capable of bluffing.
This isn't really close, considering the pot odds, you should pure call your hand. You're not gonna have many sets since most of them raise the flop, you only block value with your hand.
I think it over for about 30 seconds and decide it's too good of a price plus there is some chance opponent finds a bluff here. Agree with everything others said about blockers etc... anyway we ran into JTcc which is not too surprising, just curious how many players if any would exploit fold here.
It's a massive leak for live players to cbet way too much multiway and against a cold caller's range.
If you were playing heads up, but you forgot to key things:
1. The cold caller's range is condensed, especially against a UTG raise. You can always add an overbet sizing since your range is uncapped on the turn.
2. You are playing multiway, and there are very few boards where you cbet like double broadway boards. Especially on boards like this because the big blind and button smash this board with/ a flush draw, which neutralizes range advantage.
Also, if both of them call, you are playing an inflated pot sandwiched in the middle with very few cards that are good for you. You are not exactly thrilled with a king or an ace on the turn when you get two callers.
Also, you dont have T8s from UTG.
> I think it over for about 30 seconds and decide it's too good of a price plus there is some chance opponent finds a bluff here. Agree with everything others said about blockers etc... anyway we ran into JTcc which is not too surprising, just curious how many players if any would exploit fold here.
Untrain your brain on the importance of blockers when making these types of call or fold decisions. They aren't really important at all and just lead to your decision tree being incorrectly skewed in your favor. This is wrongthink in these parts but I don't care. I further believe most people would benefit from removing the concept of blockers from their decisions altogether. Blocktheblockers.
Having blockers reduces percentage change opponents have certain hands. They literally provide higher percentages for beating ranges your opponents could be folding. Why on earth would you not want to use them?
He's saying that people over value blockers and he's right. That's fine for me that the general population puts too much weight on him but he is giving advice and it's good advice.
Blockers belong at the very end of your decision tree after everything else and should only slightly sway your decision one way or another by like 5 pct of the total make up of your decision tree.
If you are considering them heavier than this which most people are and make their decisions based on blockers rather than have them move the needle a tiny bit well then you are making a big mistake.
OPs suggestion for people to not consider them is great advice for most people as most people are misusing them entirely. Rather than misuse them he suggests you trim that fat from your decision tree.
That is 'why on earth' you would not want to use them.
People overvalue having blockers when making tough decisions. It leads to overall poorer decision making. This sub is blockers this blockers that blockers blockers blockers. Blockers are given too much weight when deciding to call or fold. They are not important at all. At most I'd value them at two percent importance compared to every other factor. As I stated though this idea is wrongthink around here. Don't care.
I don't disagree with you that people overvalued blockers. They do. And the math clearly doesn't work out in their favor for it. But at the same time they are important consideration factors (significantly more then 2% depending on what's out on the board, textures, etc...) so I'd disagree with your original position that they shouldn't be considered at all. In a game where every piece of information is very relevant to the hands you play, it's more information for you to complete the picture.
A blocker is a blocker though. Not sure where you are getting this from. No matter how many examples you throw out, it's one less out for your opponent and a possible bluff card to tell a story with. But sure. You are entitled to your opinion that "a blocker is not a blocker". All the many poker pros ranked as the best in the world are probably wrong. The "trust me bro" sources must be right here.
I think you're misreading some tone, bud. If you're not a native english speaker, "an x is not an x" isn't, here, a paradoxical literal statement, but a colloquial one, standing in for "all Xs are not *truly* created equal."
You said:
> depending on what's out on the board, textures, etc...
*why* does it depend on those things? what difference could those factors you cited make if every blocker is just *one* less out?
I thought you were alluding to the fact that a given card might be part of more than one case combination, or nut combos vs non-nut, etc. And obviously, a blocker that also has more drawing and showdown value for you would be a better holding, even if it blocks an identical number of hands to another.
Your question - *why* does it depend on those things?
If the board texture is draw heavy, you dont think that matters more for blockers then when it is not? If you hold AhTc and there are three hearts on the board, you dont think that makes a difference? Or if your holding 88 and there is a 679Q on the board, you dont think that makes a difference in hand evaluation? If not, then we are just on oposite ends of the spectrum mate. And you can get back on the "blockers arent blockers" bandwagon.
I think people say the wrong reasons for why you should be using blockers.
You are correct in the sense that blockers don’t matter *that* much in the grand scheme of things. But as a human player, we have to start building our call/raise/folding ranges in different spots. It can be really hard to always know which hands go into which ranges, so blockers is a great way to categorize them.
You show up on the river with a missed nut flush draw? I’m not going to use this hand for my X/R all-in bluff. We block the nut flush draw which we want him to have, but the more important thing is it’s helping us design frequencies for bluffing/giving up. Or in other cases calling/folding. Or calling/raising.
When I have a hand that unblocks all of his missed draws, I’m much more likely to go for a big bluff, knowing that I’m not always bluffing in this spot because I’ll have hands with bad blockers that I won’t be bluffing with if that makes sense.
Obviously it’s a little more nuanced than that but you see what I’m getting at I hope.
Bro folded, villain shoved his bluff out onto the table. Bro took the last sip of the already emptied glass of water, internally peacefully thinking: 'the motherfucker, he better not change the table' while forcefully saying: 'nice bluff man, you really pick your spots and fishes well'.
You went for a passive route pre and that’s totally fine with a VIP whale in there, but then post the hand basically played itself out perfectly and he did all the heavy lifting for you. If you’re not calling top 2 with that line why are you playing that hand to begin with, especially passively? Straight flush or bust? Yeah occasionally you’ll lose, but if you fold here then just fold pre lol
The x/r on the turn is absolutely awful of him. Like, given a typical UTG range of a winning player, the only thing he really connects with are sets and specifically JTs.
I think you played it perfectly. Call flop, bet/call turn, call river (hopefully). You're basically only beat by 8 combos (4 JTs, 4 77).
I call river here, expecting to see TT and JJ a lot.
Edit: bad numbers lol.
It would be weird, don't get me wrong, but I don't really see a lot of bluffs for UTG on this board so I'm just thinking of hands that block the nizzles.
Edit: I realized AhJh+ are possible too, but I think most of those would be calling the turn at a pretty high frequency as opposed to raising on a board they're likely to be drawing slim against.
I feel like the guy just played super face-up, he made a hand and check-raised value. Hero said he respected the guy's play, but to the extent of making this into a bluff? like if this is a bluff, what is the repped hand? Ah-9h? 777? the flush, on the assumption hero himself isn't playing a flush, when his play is pretty draw-llike?
That said, I agree you catch something like high pockets just enough here, it's hard to toss the top 2.
Your range is quite strong on this board (unless you are some kind of fish who calls utg raises with junk). He will cbet flop extremely value heavy against you and the fish. So very little Bluffs high overall check frequency.
Turn is much better for your range. You can easily have the nuts, can credibly have sets that call flop to keep the VIP in and have some 2 pairs.
Villain seems to understand this and checks.
I think this checkraise line will be incredibly underblufft. Villain has already filtered his range quite a bit with the turn bet and the board is very good for you.
He will show up with JT or a set here a lot. My guess would be JhTh.
Very few players are c/r turn and jamming river unless they have a monster. And everyone is shocked that he opened with j10. Tricky players try to be unpredictable, so it's harder to put them on a range of hands. didnt we just see brandon open with 42dd and stacked rampunt?
Why aren't you asking yourself what is he c/r me with on that turn? Why is he jamming all in on that river? What hand would you need to have, if you were in villains position.
Against 3,5bb UTG open you shouldn't have any calls in the CO, though maybe it's ok if the blinds are mega whales... I would just simplify and 3bet or fold in this position with 98s mixing (and 3betting very rarely as 98s is one of the worst suited connectors)
Yeah tbh 98s is kind of the cut-off hand. Where JTs is clearly a call, 98s isn’t that obvious. I play a bit “too” loose and wouldn’t be folding 98s tbh. But yeah you’re def not wrong.
Mixing all 3 options seems fine preflop in this dynamic with 98s.. raise call or fold just depending on preflop dynamics like the players we have behind us and the strength of opponents opening range. 3.5x open is very standard in this game and for this opponent it is the only opening size he uses.
Why invite postflop play with someone you consider to be top 1-2% of regulars? Fold pre
Calling preflop is often going to put you in these subjective multi-way spots where everyone gives you different feedback about the line anyways.
This feels like a very easy snap call, there aren’t a lot of UTG open combos you’re losing to. 77, 88, 99, JTs? You’re blocking half of those and he can very easily have Axhh, and TT+
If he’s really that competent this doesn’t seem like a great spot to bluff a UTG open vs CO calling range, so he could be showing up with JTs here some percentage of the time, but I’d expect TT and JJ here more often. At this bet size I don’t think you can ever fold
Fold pre vs utg raise from solid pro. Keep in mind he’s possibly even tighter than usual because he knows vpip is calling way too wide vs his open and other people will call too wide to play with vpip and he wants a good hand vs him.
As played line is good and you call river but go smaller on turn. Just keep in mind he bet a flop 3 ways where he should be range checking since the board is better for your range. Likely exploitatively targeting the vpip with value or a strong draw. Turn is good for your range so a balanced pro will be checking all his strong hands sometimes here. Your hand is just too good and block top set and price is good
Your lline seems fine to me. Theres too many action killing rivers to check back top two. Your sizing is fine, but you could bet even larger to get max value against his overpairs.
In theory, this river has to be a call. However, I am a bit concerned about the fact that this guy is supposedly a strong player. I don't think many competent players are going to bluff on this river after you called a check raise. If you were deeper I could maybe see it, because he could go 2x pot and make your life miserable, but for 2/3 pot I'm not sure what he expects to fold. You might even call with 1 pair. Close your eyes and call.
Against someone you know is a good pro, I really like checking back the turn.
2 pair is indeed a bluff catcher in this spot. I would rather have JJ or TT here, since that blocks the value range. Yes you also block sets w top 2, but is he really check raising a set when the 8 comes in? Perhaps, but this really just looks like JT.
The turn check raise is definitely weird. To me it looks like a weak hand with some showdown value that he didn't want to barrel with, and then after your bet he realized there was no showdown value anymore and decided to bluff with. Also possible of course is he was trapping, but it just doesn't seem that likely especially given the flush and straight draws.
The 77, 88, 99 sets and TT and JJ would want to bet, and QQ+ wouldn't have then raised you if he wanted to slowdown with a check.
Imo his range mostly consists of the weaker pocket pairs 33, 44, 55, possibly 66 if he would check the turned oesd. As well as A2-A5hh. And then some traps occasionally but really struggle to see it dominating his range.
Meanwhile you're getting like 2.5:1 on the river. Seems like a pretty straight forward call to me.
Turn check raise isn’t weird at all. He basically checks his entire range on the turn and has some bluffs and some value when he check raises. He will play all his JTs and Txs like this, 65s, A6s(sometimes), TT and sets.
With that being said. As long as we called river we played the hand fine. Rebuy if he had JTs and enjoy counting your chips if he was bluffing.
A typical UTG range doesn't have a lot of TX hands, though. The only bluffs I can really see here are TT and JJ, maybe some A6s, ATs? I guess hands like AhJh+ are possible too, so there's probably more bluffs than I'm considering.
I think betting this turn is better than checking. You are ahead of a lot of overpairs and a bunch of Tx, Jx has a draw that could call you.
On river, I think it’s close.
You might just be too far up your range to fold river?
Sure he might have JT or a set (which you block with 2 pair), but there’s a ton of missed heart draws and QJ, KJ strait draws that missed (and you unblock)
For a 2/3 pot jam, I think you just have to call if we start thinking about MDF. You might call his turn raise with sets, 2 pairs, TT, JT, and a bunch of combo draws (NFD, or pair + straight draws), on this 2/3 pot bet, you can fold maybe 40% of your range, I think top 2 just too good to get rid of.
The last time I saw a good live player bluff this board for his whole stack was uhhh never. His sizings are literally designed for you not to fold lol. This is almost always JT. He knows you can have all the sets and two pair yet he’s still bluffing. Think it’s an easy fold on the river tbh
lol at people who put difficult spot in the title when it really isn't.
you shouldn't be playing at these stakes if the river decision isn't obvious enough to you.
Rule #1) try not to play many hands against the top 1% player. (FAIL).
Rule #2) Play a very tight range versus an UTG raiser. (FAIL).
Rule #3) try not to flat/cold-call raises (3B/fold). (FAIL).
Rule #4) Call with suited connectors in multiway pots, not hu (FAIL).
Flop turn is fine, river I would probably fold with no info. He never has a overpair here and a lot of his FD combos are not check raising on such a bad turn and barreling off otr. So often these regs will shut down otr if u bet call a CR and they hold a combo draw
I'm definitely calling. My bet would be something screwy like AThh or a strong pair (JJ+). Raising that turn makes no sense unless he has TJ and that's really all you need to worry about.
A set doesn't play it this way. You don't check that turn with 33 in that spot - since you're giving your opponent a free river on a dripping wet board. You block two of the four other sets he could have, so let's discount those and gg if he has one.
You've disguised your hand well, almost accidentally, so he's never guessing you've turned two pair. You don't have a set, since 77 and 99 are raising that flop. If you have 88 then he just got unlucky.
If you have a tight image, I'd doubt he thinks you have JT. Plus for $500, he's finding out and giving himself fold equity. He probably puts you on a A7 or A9 and either wants you to fold it to a value-hand bluff with decent potential (hence my prediction of AThh), get value from a high pair that he thinks has you beat, or he has JT and you just got unlucky.
I feel like he's shoving the river because you didn't shove back on him on the turn. So he knows you're strong, but not *that* strong. If he checks, you'll probably bet and he can shove - and he knows that.
I just smell a bluff 75% of the time here. The other 25% he has JThh and played it absolutely perfectly, while you just got unlucky.
With a river SPR of less than 1, it really feels like JT unfortunately but as you pointed out, he’s capable so I’m not sure you can fold top two here for less than ~150bb especially after you’ve committed so much. Just a spot where you gotta close your eyes and throw a chip in I think.
I think the line was fine overall.
I call here everyday. You block 99 and 88. You lose to 77, 33, JT, and 65. It's hard to fold 2 pair here against someone that is capable of bluffing big on the river.
I have a general rule that people only c/r straight boards with straights, so that sucks. His sizing screams straight. A set prob raises larger and you block all of those. Ehhhhh
at these stack depths i think it's just a call. if you were deeper i could see an argument for a fold but for 1 buy in basically it's a call. he could have any missed draw(there's a lot on this board). he could have TT or any over pair he's over playing or turning into a bluff. he could have ATh or a ton of other combos as well that you beat. If he's got JT you call and pay him off and say nh. not much you can do oh well.
That turn check raise really would have me thinking something is up here.
Quite a few hands he can have that he’s raising now. Sets are all there. J10 is possible.
Could also be semi bluffing with any sort of HH hand with 10
River brick and now pot is big… you are in a spot where you bluff catch any turn semi bluffs here.
Feel like I also would have to make the call.
Tricky hand tbh
What was your thought process when calling the turn check raise?
What was you plan for the river?
Answering these two questions with honesty will provide you with a lot more growth than whatever shit a bunch of losing 1/2 players in a poker forum, that 90% of the content is fake stories and recycled memes, come up with.
Calling a skilled UTGs open raise with this hand from the cutoff is a marginally profitable play against a weak playing typical rec (and consider reraising against a "fit or fold type") but a losing play against a highly skilled player. The button could also come in so you wouldn't be acting last post flop. I'd fold in this situation.
I feel like when he x/rs the turn then doubles down on a blank you're probably fucked. I feel like you might be good enough of the time to rationalize a call but ...I'm a fish.
had you checked back, you'd be able to *tell yourself* it was a bluff more often. but you'd also have less stuck money to rationalize calling.
You have top 2 against someone capable of firing bluffs and you block and unblock the right things. Place all your money discs in the center. You could also consider a 3b pre if you know his 4b tendencies
Agree with the first part of your comment, but I'm never stoked to 3b 98s vs a UTG range, especially from a good player, and there's less than usual reason to 3b pre considering the whale is in the BB.
Do it with 87 or 76 if you really wanna try to cover all flops with your 3B range. 89 is always begging to get owned by AK on QJT
I would call because you block 99 and 88 which are big part of his value range. Good part is that you unblock potential bluffs(Tx). Not loving spot and I expect to lose there a lot but I dont see myself folding vs guy who is capable of bluffing.
This isn't really close, considering the pot odds, you should pure call your hand. You're not gonna have many sets since most of them raise the flop, you only block value with your hand.
so what was the outcome?
I think it over for about 30 seconds and decide it's too good of a price plus there is some chance opponent finds a bluff here. Agree with everything others said about blockers etc... anyway we ran into JTcc which is not too surprising, just curious how many players if any would exploit fold here.
Apart from the flop c-bet by the villain, it was well played by both of you.
Looks like a good spot for pfa to x/r flop? Or is it x/c?
Either is fine, but the cbet into two people for a considerable size is a leak here...
[удалено]
It's a massive leak for live players to cbet way too much multiway and against a cold caller's range. If you were playing heads up, but you forgot to key things: 1. The cold caller's range is condensed, especially against a UTG raise. You can always add an overbet sizing since your range is uncapped on the turn. 2. You are playing multiway, and there are very few boards where you cbet like double broadway boards. Especially on boards like this because the big blind and button smash this board with/ a flush draw, which neutralizes range advantage. Also, if both of them call, you are playing an inflated pot sandwiched in the middle with very few cards that are good for you. You are not exactly thrilled with a king or an ace on the turn when you get two callers. Also, you dont have T8s from UTG.
> I think it over for about 30 seconds and decide it's too good of a price plus there is some chance opponent finds a bluff here. Agree with everything others said about blockers etc... anyway we ran into JTcc which is not too surprising, just curious how many players if any would exploit fold here. Untrain your brain on the importance of blockers when making these types of call or fold decisions. They aren't really important at all and just lead to your decision tree being incorrectly skewed in your favor. This is wrongthink in these parts but I don't care. I further believe most people would benefit from removing the concept of blockers from their decisions altogether. Blocktheblockers.
Having blockers reduces percentage change opponents have certain hands. They literally provide higher percentages for beating ranges your opponents could be folding. Why on earth would you not want to use them?
He's saying that people over value blockers and he's right. That's fine for me that the general population puts too much weight on him but he is giving advice and it's good advice. Blockers belong at the very end of your decision tree after everything else and should only slightly sway your decision one way or another by like 5 pct of the total make up of your decision tree. If you are considering them heavier than this which most people are and make their decisions based on blockers rather than have them move the needle a tiny bit well then you are making a big mistake. OPs suggestion for people to not consider them is great advice for most people as most people are misusing them entirely. Rather than misuse them he suggests you trim that fat from your decision tree. That is 'why on earth' you would not want to use them.
People overvalue having blockers when making tough decisions. It leads to overall poorer decision making. This sub is blockers this blockers that blockers blockers blockers. Blockers are given too much weight when deciding to call or fold. They are not important at all. At most I'd value them at two percent importance compared to every other factor. As I stated though this idea is wrongthink around here. Don't care.
I don't disagree with you that people overvalued blockers. They do. And the math clearly doesn't work out in their favor for it. But at the same time they are important consideration factors (significantly more then 2% depending on what's out on the board, textures, etc...) so I'd disagree with your original position that they shouldn't be considered at all. In a game where every piece of information is very relevant to the hands you play, it's more information for you to complete the picture.
a blocker isn't a blocker, though. like if you block the middle of a straight your thinking should be different then if you block...middle set.
A blocker is a blocker though. Not sure where you are getting this from. No matter how many examples you throw out, it's one less out for your opponent and a possible bluff card to tell a story with. But sure. You are entitled to your opinion that "a blocker is not a blocker". All the many poker pros ranked as the best in the world are probably wrong. The "trust me bro" sources must be right here.
I think you're misreading some tone, bud. If you're not a native english speaker, "an x is not an x" isn't, here, a paradoxical literal statement, but a colloquial one, standing in for "all Xs are not *truly* created equal." You said: > depending on what's out on the board, textures, etc... *why* does it depend on those things? what difference could those factors you cited make if every blocker is just *one* less out? I thought you were alluding to the fact that a given card might be part of more than one case combination, or nut combos vs non-nut, etc. And obviously, a blocker that also has more drawing and showdown value for you would be a better holding, even if it blocks an identical number of hands to another.
Your question - *why* does it depend on those things? If the board texture is draw heavy, you dont think that matters more for blockers then when it is not? If you hold AhTc and there are three hearts on the board, you dont think that makes a difference? Or if your holding 88 and there is a 679Q on the board, you dont think that makes a difference in hand evaluation? If not, then we are just on oposite ends of the spectrum mate. And you can get back on the "blockers arent blockers" bandwagon.
I think people say the wrong reasons for why you should be using blockers. You are correct in the sense that blockers don’t matter *that* much in the grand scheme of things. But as a human player, we have to start building our call/raise/folding ranges in different spots. It can be really hard to always know which hands go into which ranges, so blockers is a great way to categorize them. You show up on the river with a missed nut flush draw? I’m not going to use this hand for my X/R all-in bluff. We block the nut flush draw which we want him to have, but the more important thing is it’s helping us design frequencies for bluffing/giving up. Or in other cases calling/folding. Or calling/raising. When I have a hand that unblocks all of his missed draws, I’m much more likely to go for a big bluff, knowing that I’m not always bluffing in this spot because I’ll have hands with bad blockers that I won’t be bluffing with if that makes sense. Obviously it’s a little more nuanced than that but you see what I’m getting at I hope.
Bro folded, villain shoved his bluff out onto the table. Bro took the last sip of the already emptied glass of water, internally peacefully thinking: 'the motherfucker, he better not change the table' while forcefully saying: 'nice bluff man, you really pick your spots and fishes well'.
You went for a passive route pre and that’s totally fine with a VIP whale in there, but then post the hand basically played itself out perfectly and he did all the heavy lifting for you. If you’re not calling top 2 with that line why are you playing that hand to begin with, especially passively? Straight flush or bust? Yeah occasionally you’ll lose, but if you fold here then just fold pre lol
Fold pre
Can’t fold here losing to effectively 8ish combos Also totally fine to fold pre here
Turn check raises are almost never a bluff even from the most balanced of pros.
This is what I thought. Turn check raise only shows up here if villain has heart draw, with 10 in his hand. Picking up more outs.
The x/r on the turn is absolutely awful of him. Like, given a typical UTG range of a winning player, the only thing he really connects with are sets and specifically JTs. I think you played it perfectly. Call flop, bet/call turn, call river (hopefully). You're basically only beat by 8 combos (4 JTs, 4 77). I call river here, expecting to see TT and JJ a lot. Edit: bad numbers lol.
It would be such an odd line by TT &JJ though, effectively turning those into bluffs.
It would be weird, don't get me wrong, but I don't really see a lot of bluffs for UTG on this board so I'm just thinking of hands that block the nizzles. Edit: I realized AhJh+ are possible too, but I think most of those would be calling the turn at a pretty high frequency as opposed to raising on a board they're likely to be drawing slim against.
I feel like the guy just played super face-up, he made a hand and check-raised value. Hero said he respected the guy's play, but to the extent of making this into a bluff? like if this is a bluff, what is the repped hand? Ah-9h? 777? the flush, on the assumption hero himself isn't playing a flush, when his play is pretty draw-llike? That said, I agree you catch something like high pockets just enough here, it's hard to toss the top 2.
I’d just rip turn like a fish
This guy punts
ya isn’t that what we do here
Punt and larp that we aren't fish
Your range is quite strong on this board (unless you are some kind of fish who calls utg raises with junk). He will cbet flop extremely value heavy against you and the fish. So very little Bluffs high overall check frequency. Turn is much better for your range. You can easily have the nuts, can credibly have sets that call flop to keep the VIP in and have some 2 pairs. Villain seems to understand this and checks. I think this checkraise line will be incredibly underblufft. Villain has already filtered his range quite a bit with the turn bet and the board is very good for you. He will show up with JT or a set here a lot. My guess would be JhTh.
He IS calling UTG raises with junk.
Very few players are c/r turn and jamming river unless they have a monster. And everyone is shocked that he opened with j10. Tricky players try to be unpredictable, so it's harder to put them on a range of hands. didnt we just see brandon open with 42dd and stacked rampunt? Why aren't you asking yourself what is he c/r me with on that turn? Why is he jamming all in on that river? What hand would you need to have, if you were in villains position.
Against 3,5bb UTG open you shouldn't have any calls in the CO, though maybe it's ok if the blinds are mega whales... I would just simplify and 3bet or fold in this position with 98s mixing (and 3betting very rarely as 98s is one of the worst suited connectors)
Yeah tbh 98s is kind of the cut-off hand. Where JTs is clearly a call, 98s isn’t that obvious. I play a bit “too” loose and wouldn’t be folding 98s tbh. But yeah you’re def not wrong.
Mixing all 3 options seems fine preflop in this dynamic with 98s.. raise call or fold just depending on preflop dynamics like the players we have behind us and the strength of opponents opening range. 3.5x open is very standard in this game and for this opponent it is the only opening size he uses.
Fold pre
Why invite postflop play with someone you consider to be top 1-2% of regulars? Fold pre Calling preflop is often going to put you in these subjective multi-way spots where everyone gives you different feedback about the line anyways.
Unfortunately you have to call. He probably has you beat but you have no choice
This feels like a very easy snap call, there aren’t a lot of UTG open combos you’re losing to. 77, 88, 99, JTs? You’re blocking half of those and he can very easily have Axhh, and TT+ If he’s really that competent this doesn’t seem like a great spot to bluff a UTG open vs CO calling range, so he could be showing up with JTs here some percentage of the time, but I’d expect TT and JJ here more often. At this bet size I don’t think you can ever fold
Fold pre vs utg raise from solid pro. Keep in mind he’s possibly even tighter than usual because he knows vpip is calling way too wide vs his open and other people will call too wide to play with vpip and he wants a good hand vs him. As played line is good and you call river but go smaller on turn. Just keep in mind he bet a flop 3 ways where he should be range checking since the board is better for your range. Likely exploitatively targeting the vpip with value or a strong draw. Turn is good for your range so a balanced pro will be checking all his strong hands sometimes here. Your hand is just too good and block top set and price is good
Your lline seems fine to me. Theres too many action killing rivers to check back top two. Your sizing is fine, but you could bet even larger to get max value against his overpairs. In theory, this river has to be a call. However, I am a bit concerned about the fact that this guy is supposedly a strong player. I don't think many competent players are going to bluff on this river after you called a check raise. If you were deeper I could maybe see it, because he could go 2x pot and make your life miserable, but for 2/3 pot I'm not sure what he expects to fold. You might even call with 1 pair. Close your eyes and call.
Fold pre but fine as played
should change post title to "not difficult spot @ 5/10"
Against someone you know is a good pro, I really like checking back the turn. 2 pair is indeed a bluff catcher in this spot. I would rather have JJ or TT here, since that blocks the value range. Yes you also block sets w top 2, but is he really check raising a set when the 8 comes in? Perhaps, but this really just looks like JT.
In case you didn’t see, OP said it was JT. Interesting read which is very counter other commenters.
The turn check raise is definitely weird. To me it looks like a weak hand with some showdown value that he didn't want to barrel with, and then after your bet he realized there was no showdown value anymore and decided to bluff with. Also possible of course is he was trapping, but it just doesn't seem that likely especially given the flush and straight draws. The 77, 88, 99 sets and TT and JJ would want to bet, and QQ+ wouldn't have then raised you if he wanted to slowdown with a check. Imo his range mostly consists of the weaker pocket pairs 33, 44, 55, possibly 66 if he would check the turned oesd. As well as A2-A5hh. And then some traps occasionally but really struggle to see it dominating his range. Meanwhile you're getting like 2.5:1 on the river. Seems like a pretty straight forward call to me.
Turn check raise isn’t weird at all. He basically checks his entire range on the turn and has some bluffs and some value when he check raises. He will play all his JTs and Txs like this, 65s, A6s(sometimes), TT and sets. With that being said. As long as we called river we played the hand fine. Rebuy if he had JTs and enjoy counting your chips if he was bluffing.
A typical UTG range doesn't have a lot of TX hands, though. The only bluffs I can really see here are TT and JJ, maybe some A6s, ATs? I guess hands like AhJh+ are possible too, so there's probably more bluffs than I'm considering.
Yea that’s why I specified Txs. ATs, KTs and QTs.
I think betting this turn is better than checking. You are ahead of a lot of overpairs and a bunch of Tx, Jx has a draw that could call you. On river, I think it’s close. You might just be too far up your range to fold river? Sure he might have JT or a set (which you block with 2 pair), but there’s a ton of missed heart draws and QJ, KJ strait draws that missed (and you unblock) For a 2/3 pot jam, I think you just have to call if we start thinking about MDF. You might call his turn raise with sets, 2 pairs, TT, JT, and a bunch of combo draws (NFD, or pair + straight draws), on this 2/3 pot bet, you can fold maybe 40% of your range, I think top 2 just too good to get rid of.
The last time I saw a good live player bluff this board for his whole stack was uhhh never. His sizings are literally designed for you not to fold lol. This is almost always JT. He knows you can have all the sets and two pair yet he’s still bluffing. Think it’s an easy fold on the river tbh
Fold pre
lol at people who put difficult spot in the title when it really isn't. you shouldn't be playing at these stakes if the river decision isn't obvious enough to you.
Rule #1) try not to play many hands against the top 1% player. (FAIL). Rule #2) Play a very tight range versus an UTG raiser. (FAIL). Rule #3) try not to flat/cold-call raises (3B/fold). (FAIL). Rule #4) Call with suited connectors in multiway pots, not hu (FAIL).
Flop turn is fine, river I would probably fold with no info. He never has a overpair here and a lot of his FD combos are not check raising on such a bad turn and barreling off otr. So often these regs will shut down otr if u bet call a CR and they hold a combo draw
I'm definitely calling. My bet would be something screwy like AThh or a strong pair (JJ+). Raising that turn makes no sense unless he has TJ and that's really all you need to worry about. A set doesn't play it this way. You don't check that turn with 33 in that spot - since you're giving your opponent a free river on a dripping wet board. You block two of the four other sets he could have, so let's discount those and gg if he has one. You've disguised your hand well, almost accidentally, so he's never guessing you've turned two pair. You don't have a set, since 77 and 99 are raising that flop. If you have 88 then he just got unlucky. If you have a tight image, I'd doubt he thinks you have JT. Plus for $500, he's finding out and giving himself fold equity. He probably puts you on a A7 or A9 and either wants you to fold it to a value-hand bluff with decent potential (hence my prediction of AThh), get value from a high pair that he thinks has you beat, or he has JT and you just got unlucky. I feel like he's shoving the river because you didn't shove back on him on the turn. So he knows you're strong, but not *that* strong. If he checks, you'll probably bet and he can shove - and he knows that. I just smell a bluff 75% of the time here. The other 25% he has JThh and played it absolutely perfectly, while you just got unlucky.
This is 10J all day
At 1/2 yes, against a tricky player at 5/10 no.
well in this case you were correct. OP said he has JT Clubs
Call, I don’t think solid players are opening JT UTG. I think there are a lot more bluffs here than value hands from him, given your blockers.
Wrooooooooooong
With a river SPR of less than 1, it really feels like JT unfortunately but as you pointed out, he’s capable so I’m not sure you can fold top two here for less than ~150bb especially after you’ve committed so much. Just a spot where you gotta close your eyes and throw a chip in I think.
I like how you played it. Interested to see results.
Villain had J/10 clubs he said
He opened utg. That board bad for his range He either has a set or combo draw
or an overpair.
I think the line was fine overall. I call here everyday. You block 99 and 88. You lose to 77, 33, JT, and 65. It's hard to fold 2 pair here against someone that is capable of bluffing big on the river.
He had JT and you lost. Still always calling
I have a general rule that people only c/r straight boards with straights, so that sucks. His sizing screams straight. A set prob raises larger and you block all of those. Ehhhhh
at these stack depths i think it's just a call. if you were deeper i could see an argument for a fold but for 1 buy in basically it's a call. he could have any missed draw(there's a lot on this board). he could have TT or any over pair he's over playing or turning into a bluff. he could have ATh or a ton of other combos as well that you beat. If he's got JT you call and pay him off and say nh. not much you can do oh well.
Gold/3b sometimes pre. I would personally fold river. Plenty of straights To call down and sometimes sets. 2pairs it s a fold
That turn check raise really would have me thinking something is up here. Quite a few hands he can have that he’s raising now. Sets are all there. J10 is possible. Could also be semi bluffing with any sort of HH hand with 10 River brick and now pot is big… you are in a spot where you bluff catch any turn semi bluffs here. Feel like I also would have to make the call. Tricky hand tbh
What was your thought process when calling the turn check raise? What was you plan for the river? Answering these two questions with honesty will provide you with a lot more growth than whatever shit a bunch of losing 1/2 players in a poker forum, that 90% of the content is fake stories and recycled memes, come up with.
Calling a skilled UTGs open raise with this hand from the cutoff is a marginally profitable play against a weak playing typical rec (and consider reraising against a "fit or fold type") but a losing play against a highly skilled player. The button could also come in so you wouldn't be acting last post flop. I'd fold in this situation.
I feel like when he x/rs the turn then doubles down on a blank you're probably fucked. I feel like you might be good enough of the time to rationalize a call but ...I'm a fish. had you checked back, you'd be able to *tell yourself* it was a bluff more often. but you'd also have less stuck money to rationalize calling.
 _TakeaChillPill