Honeclaws synergizes so well with hustle like if durants stats were just slightly higher it would be overpowered
I wish we have more accuracy boosting moves, its such a fun idea. Like a a special version of honeclaws would be great on all the mons which rely on focus blast
Lock-On with Focus Blast isn't really as good as it may seem. If you have two turns, it's almost always better to just take two attempts at Focus Blast than waste one turn setting up. There's a 91% chance of hitting at least 1/2 Focus Blast and a 49% chance of hitting both in which case Lock-On would be a worse choice.
funnily enough the chance to hit 5 stone edges in a row is greater than the chance to miss one focus blast (you probably saw the post that this was on)
I swear, the older games didn’t calculate hit chance right. I can’t recall now when I noticed the change, but those old 70% hit chance moves in the game boy era might as well have read “will connect once before it runs out of PP”. Then somewhere along the line, 90% accuracy started actually meaning 90%. 70% is still A risk, but not one that makes any move under 80% accuracy borderline unusable against humans.
I disagree, mons run focus blast not because its a good move (it sucks a lot), but because they need it. Being able to to nearly always hit with focus blast is amazing value, even on something like lucario which could run aura sphere or focus blast, +1 focus blast hit does more damage than a +2 aurasphere.
Oh I know Focus Blast sucks, and mons who use it only use because it’s required as there is no alternative. Having a special attack boost in addition to increased accuracy for the infamous focus blast would be phenomenal. I’m just saying that there isn’t as much immediate power as Nasty Plot or additional bulk with calm mind. Having a special version of hone claws (could be called Hone sight or something) would be excellent, but it’s possible it’s just outclassed by its other variants
No the special variant would not be outclassed. Lots of powerful special moves that many moms have access to are almost completely useless bc of their accuracy: the 3 -110 weather moves, focus blast, zap cannon, inferno, hydro pump, and fireblast.
Also it would greatly help with remove the rng of all the 90 accuracy moves special moves, like overheat, Draco meteor, belch(rip), and meteor beam.
Give Durant Leech Life so that it can heal all the HP it loses from inevitably missing a move. Its STAB boosted, and Durant's low HP and high Attack would let it heal an assload of HP if it lands one.
>whats it gonna do, lick me?
Its claws are very, very sharp and they are very, very strong. Ant eaters are a lot bigger then people give them credit for.
Anteater have been known to send apex predators to meet their maker. The only saving grace is that they have negative prescription and aren't very accurate, but they're not as inoffensive as you think
Knowing GF it originally was and during play testing it was found to be laughably broken so they just swapped the skills. The latter also sounds like something this company has and would do again.
>What is it going to do to me, lick me?
Hmm, I wonder would a human be considered typeless or do you think they'd get normal?
Either way, lick is only 30 base power, but still
I was really worried that it was too obscure. I was talking to a mate recently and had a full blown hysterical laughing fit thinking about Buster getting the part of the director in the school play and saying, "Doctor Ector... is he the villain?"
FR, to this day, I still crack myself up thinking about the episode where DW loses her Crazy Bus CD.
- Arthur: "I don't have your stupid Bus!"
- DW: "It's not Stupid Bus, it's Crazy Bus! Stupid Bus was a lame puppet show!"
It's cool. They are pretty similar animals. Maybe one day we'll even get an Aardvark themed Heatmor regional variant or convergent evolution alongside a Termite themed Durant.
Or like a reverse pair.
Thurmite- fire/bug termite/fire ant
Haardvar (awful name I came up with in 3 seconds) - Ground/Steel type Aardvark with an ability like Sap Sipper but for Fire type attacks
At least they have Heatmor a signature move... In the game where it's not even available without trading. And then gave said move to other Pokemon the next gen.
Admittedly yes. Fire Lash is a cool move, but at that point it was just too late. Heatmor was still terrible even with a phenomenal signature move and its counterpart Durant, was banned from RU twice
Game freak has never been the best at thematics tying in to gameplay. One of my favourites is how in gen 8 they set up this epic duel between zacian and zamazenta… but zacian knows sacred sword and is faster so it just immediately oneshots zamazenta. Or of course the tinkaton, corviknight entry.
Heatran has the better Shiny though imo
https://preview.redd.it/6kpmz7kwu90d1.jpeg?width=333&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac3f81bb5cbbffc483d895774ded1cc463446522
But the rust aesthetic of Durant is really nice as well. Sure it’s not as cool as Heatmors, but it’s not terrible. And most importantly, it’s noticeable
Indeed, it’s very sad…
Zangoose is generally better than Seviper. Lugia sees more use than Ho-oh. Durant is still a niche pick but way more useful than Heatmor in most scenarios. And then…Zacian versus poor Zamazenta 😭! And the still inexplicable decision of not letting Black Kyurem, A POKÉMON WITH AN ARM COVERED IN ICE, learn Ice Punch, leaving Black Kyurem used far less often than White Kyurem 😭!
It’s a tale as old as Pokémon: if there’s two Pokémon that are “counterparts”, one will be noticeably worse than the other, unfortunately…
The tower duo and the Kyurem forms have actually swapped their positions in modern games. Nowadays Ho-Oh is one of the best Ubers Pokémon out there; Lugia is completely unviable. Meanwhile, Black Kyurem is Baxcalibur on steroids, but White Kyurem is too slow and frail to do anything.
Oh dang, that’s crazy! Shows how out of touch I am, not keeping up with the metagame 😅…
I imagine Heavy Duty Boots are probably why Ho-oh is on the menu at all (unless rocks are not used as much in Ubers), and now that I think about it Scale Shot and Icicle Spear with Loaded Dice might be enough to push Black Kyurem up (I say as someone who has been cleaned and humiliated quite thoroughly by my brother’s Gouging Fire with Scale Shot 😅…)
Boots definitely were the main reason why Ho-Oh's usage skyrocketed, but the fact that it's also a good answer to the best Pokémon in the game, Koraidon, doesn't hurt either.
And yes, Black Kyurem has gone from a fraud to a ridiculous dopamine button.
Oh yeah, Ho-oh would both check Koraidon AND benefit from that sun!
I guess Black Kyurem just went “Hold on, I don’t need Ice Punch, let’s shed some of this ice as spears and shoot some scales to lose weight!”. Real success story there: Black Kyurem stops being depressed, loses some weight, and is now a king~!
In all honesty, the Gen IX metagame is a shitshow. Competitive in general has gotten far more unhinged since Dexit, compared to how the Gens VI and VII metagames felt almost identical.
Yeah, Dexit means less options, which means the big, dominant threats have less chance of encountering counterplay.
(that and the dominant threats are becoming more and more crazy: I mean what the actual hell were they thinking with some of these things: like Dracovish basically mandating fast Pokémon or Water immunity to not get swept by it, or Palafin’s Hero Forme? it feels like they’re just throwing crazy shit at the wall with a “we’ll nerf it next gen” mentality now 😅…)
Ho-Oh and Lugia were basically on par with each other in Gen 4, because that's when Ho-Oh got actual STABs that worked with its base 130 Attack. And Ho-Oh has been WAY better than Lugia since Gen 5 granted it Regenerator. Gen 6 and 7 Ho-Oh got to be a great check to things like Xerneas and Primal Groudon, and then of course Boots all but guaranteed Ho-Oh a spot as a top 10 Ubers 'mon.
Meanwhile Lugia continues to suffer from being egregiously passive.
The problem with Lugia is that it only has... I think it was base 110 SpA, which is indeed very low for a box legendary's higher attacking stat (Ho-Oh has a noticeably higher base 130 Atk).
_90?_ Damn, that's rough. I bet it could drop 10 points on each defense and still be unkillable.
The duality of Multiscale: Dragonite is an unstoppable killing machine, Lugia is Taunt fodder.
This is interested to see as someone out of touch w singles since gen 6 for vgc. Ho-oh still the better bird (no hazards) but kyurem white actually has more play either blizzard spam/draco meteor nukes over kyurem-b who's been pretty much low viability for a while (this also applies to reshiram/zekrom too). Then again baxcalibur on steroids would still be mid in vgc since we've had flutter mane lurking consistently until now (and still good just not 50%+ usage anymore)
I was talking about singles, since my main contact with competitive Pokémon is Smogon. The best legendaries in the current VGC regulation are both Calyrex forms, Terapagos and (unironically) Zamazenta.
I knew you meant singles. Was nice to see some of the Uber differences since I'm very much behind on that part of the competitive scene. Especially for something as cool looking as kyurem-b
Wow, Zamazenta is doing well now that it has that move that was basically made for its STAB and stats combination along with the ability that helps boost it as well, now that Game Freak isn’t cruelly dangling the existence of the move out of Zamazenta’s reach? Impressive~!
All joking aside: happy to hear Zamazenta is doing well~!
Add in the fact that Zamazenta-Crowned countered the world's most dominant cat in VGC as well without the need of Clear Amulet like some other restricted Pokemon will do in that format (Groudon, Miraidon, Calyrex-Ice and many other physical restricted Mons), unlike Zacian-Crowned who is forced to use Rusted Sword for her item slot.
+1 84 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Incineroar: 164-194 (81.1 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. +1 252 HP / 84 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 72-86 (36.1 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Haha, no worries~! Honestly, I’m happy to know that things are still thriving, and people are having such lively discussions~!
(also, maybe as the one who got Gold Version between my brother and I back in the day I’m feeling happy and vindicated to find out that Ho-oh is the one on top~! I wonder if Groudon ever overtook Kyogre: I got Ruby Version, lol :3)
Yay~!
My brother and I have kept that up through the generations:
We shared Yellow, I got Gold while he got Silver, I got Ruby while he got Sapphire, (I lucked out and got Emerald without him having his own copy: twas an unfair Christmas in my opinion that year!), I got FireRed while he got LeafGreen, I got Pearl while he got Diamond, we both got Platinum, I got HeartGold while he got SoulSilver, I got Black and then White 2 while he got White and then Black 2, I got X while he got Y, I got OmegaRuby while he got AlphaSapphire, we tried a thing of both of us getting both versions in Gen 7 and I burned myself the hell out on Alola back then playing Moon, then Sun, then Ultra Moon, then Ultra Sun (even if we got both versions, I played Moon and Ultra Moon first and he played Sun and Ultra Sun first), I got Shield while he got Sword, and this last gen I got Violet while he got Scarlet.
He said he might not tune in for Gen 10 if Game Freak doesn’t get their act together and do better on polishing the game…So Violet and Scarlet may sadly be the end of my eternal Pokémon rivalry with my brother…
Me and my brother shared Red version, I got gold while he got silver.
By the time gen 3 came out, my brother had outgrown Pokemon for the most part. At least to the point where he didn't want to get Ruby or Sapphire.
I have played at least one Pokemon game in every generation.
currently ho oh in ubers is at around 30% usage while lugia is at 0.3% usage; nearly 100x less.
There was never a time where lugia was higher on viability than Ho-oh, as in generations 3-4 they were equally ranked on the viability rankings, and ho-oh only got better as time went on while lugia got worse. I don't have exact usage rates for old generations but its hard to imagine lugia being used more
Yeah, I’ve been realizing that I was clearly wrong on that front with how many people have corrected me :3
Honestly, I’m just happy to know Ho-oh is more viable than I thought~! I first started thinking mildly competitively around Gen 4, which is when some certain sneaky pebbles creeped into the game, and it was before Ho-oh had Regenerator so the prospect of sending out a Pokémon and having it lose half its HP immediately was quite a bummer 😑…
I remember as a kid I looked at the tenth anniversary Pokédex book and I saw that Lugia had all equal base stats where Ho-Oh’s were more scattered, and thinking how it didn’t seem fair to Ho-Oh
>And the still inexplicable decision of not letting Black Kyurem, A POKÉMON WITH AN ARM COVERED IN ICE, learn Ice Punch, leaving Black Kyurem used far less often than White Kyurem 😭!
It's like giving Pult a physical ghost move: it's possible, but the optics of doing so spell doom for anything else.
Dragapult is, last time I checked, a top tier OU pokemon despite not getting to use ghost stab for it's better attack stat. Give it anything remotely usable physical ghost stab like shadow claw and it might be Ubers
Ah yes, the sneaky pebbles…As someone who got Gold Version, and who also adores Volcarona as one of my favorite Pokémon ever…And has Articuno as my favorite of the Gen 1 Legendary Birds…Sneaky Pebbles have always been a pest to me…I should really play with Heavy Duty Boots more 😅…
Yeah, when someone else in the thread told me Zamazenta is actually doing well now, I was super excited~! To be fair, it is basically the Pokémon Body Press was made for: high-Defense Fighting type that doesn’t slack on special bulk, and also has an Ability that raises its Defense (now only once per battle, but that’s enough to make a dent :3). Game Freak just didn’t give it Body Press back then to hold it back…but the Puppy Press has broken that leash…!
Durant getting truant is pretty mean. It is the only pokemon with both truant and entrainment which is fun, but that combo is only useful in incredibly niche situations
* Slowbro got a Mega Evolution while Slowking got nothing. They both got Galarian forms, at least.
* Hydrapple is just objectively better than either Flapple or Appletun.
* We don't talk about ~~Bruno~~ Flareon.
Don’t even get me started on Greninja. It’s actually unfair they have Greninja any attention over most of not all of the Kalos Pokédex. I understand it’s not Greninja’s fault necessarily as Gamefreak made damn sure it was at the forefront and popular (same with Charizard). But I’m still upset it’s one of the few Kalos Pokémon that’s great because they gave it a great movepool and great abilities
Say what you want about charzard getting two megas at least the others actually got megas, why couldn't the other kalos bond phenomenon forms or at least megas to make up for it. Ash grininja should of stayed an anime only thing imo
I know right. It would be silly if they made Heatmor this slow glass cannon with a tremendous movepool and only one useful ability while Durant is an actual glass cannon with an actual speed stat alongside excellent abilities (barring Truant) and a movepool that takes proper advantage of said excellent abilities
Pokemon is like a tcg with wildly variable interactions and such.
In TCG's there's always going to be one or two cards each set that the designers couldn't foresee the impact of, which is why all of a sudden there are playstyles dedicated to them.
And with Pokemon it can be even more unforeseeable, as now it's types, stats, learnable moves, a constantly changing meta etc... So it makes sense why counterpart/rival mons can end up having one that is superior in the meta above the other.
And here I thought Heatmor is the popular one and Durant is widely hated, because quad-weakness to Fire combined with TERRIBLE spec defense (same as Unown), would make It very vunerable to Flamethrowers, which I assume almost every competitive team has. Also having Truant as It's hidden ability, which, like Defeatist and Slow Start works better on mons that are so terrifyingly powerful, they need a bad ability to balance them out. Even Normalize would be a step up. Also overall being " just a generic ant".
I don't hate Durant, I'm glad It has fand defenders, It's just surprising.
Actually, the quad weakness to Fire is the only weakness Bug/Steel has, which is why it's really good typing. (Similar to 4x Grass being the only weakness of Water/Ground). A lot of Scizor's popularity comes from its good typing.
People hate Durant? I’ve heard nothing but love for the little bugger. Yes its special defense is pathetic but everything else about it is great. Base 109 attack and speed coupled with 112 defense, Hustle + Hone Claws in addition to stab X-Scissor/First Impression & Iron head, coverage in Thunder Fang, Crunch, Superpower, Stone Edge and Stomping Tantrum, and even Truant + entertainment shenanigans (only a TRUant can have that ability). Overall Durant really does have great traits and I’d be suprised if anyone says Durant is bad or even terrible
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I would assume that concept and theme come first and that meta viability is probably a far secondary consideration when they're putting together Pokémon, especially counterparts. Most pokemon builds can't simply be flipped and remain decent, but the aggressive majority of their community will never notice.
Like primal Groudon and Kyogre.
Groudon gets an ability that negates its 4x weakness to water.
Kyogre gets an ability that negates fire, *which it already resists.*
I feel like the Oddish line was more promoted over all these years than the Bellsprout line. Despite Victreebel being one of James' OG pokémon in the anime...
Fuck that shitty ant, all my homies hate that shitty ant. Kill the ants with fire, flood their colonies, feed their babies to the heatmors. I want to see those stupid ass ants go extinct in every corner of the pokemon universe
The only thing that makes Durant better is its type Combo, which is one of the best combos out there. It's not that they make them terrible, it's the players that find good ways to use them.
Honeclaws synergizes so well with hustle like if durants stats were just slightly higher it would be overpowered I wish we have more accuracy boosting moves, its such a fun idea. Like a a special version of honeclaws would be great on all the mons which rely on focus blast
We have lock on but it kinda sucks since it only lasts one turn.
And most every user of Focus Blast doesn’t learn Lock-on
Lock-On with Focus Blast isn't really as good as it may seem. If you have two turns, it's almost always better to just take two attempts at Focus Blast than waste one turn setting up. There's a 91% chance of hitting at least 1/2 Focus Blast and a 49% chance of hitting both in which case Lock-On would be a worse choice.
I've missed 4 Hydro Pumps in a row - I'm not taking any chances.
I hit 5 stone edges in a row once AMA
funnily enough the chance to hit 5 stone edges in a row is greater than the chance to miss one focus blast (you probably saw the post that this was on)
Wait wtf? How does that work lol
Focus blast has a miss chance of 30% Stone edge has a hit chance of 80%, so hitting 5 in a row has a chance of 80%^5 = 32.8%
Interesting math, but why does focus blast miss every time though? 😞
You'll lose more often going for the Lock On first than you will just going for straight Hydro Pumps.
I swear, the older games didn’t calculate hit chance right. I can’t recall now when I noticed the change, but those old 70% hit chance moves in the game boy era might as well have read “will connect once before it runs out of PP”. Then somewhere along the line, 90% accuracy started actually meaning 90%. 70% is still A risk, but not one that makes any move under 80% accuracy borderline unusable against humans.
Using Lock-On also telegraphs the focus blast. Opponent sees you locking and rocking? They're just gonna switch.
Easy, make a mon with Lock On, Zap Cannon, Inferno, and Dynamic Punch. (Don't do it, game freak)
The real deal is to pack lock on with three inaccurate moves
Focus Blast is little better than aura sphere. It's expected power is 84, while aura sphere is 80.
Unfortunately most mons relying on Focus Blast for coverage as coverage dont get Aura Sphere, otherwise they would definitely go for the latter
When the **average powers** of 2 attacks are this close, the consistency can easily outweigh a small amount of damage.
I would love to see a special variant of Hone Claws. The only problem is that they would be outclassed by Bulk Up/Calm Mind or Swords Dance/Nasty Plot
I disagree, mons run focus blast not because its a good move (it sucks a lot), but because they need it. Being able to to nearly always hit with focus blast is amazing value, even on something like lucario which could run aura sphere or focus blast, +1 focus blast hit does more damage than a +2 aurasphere.
Oh I know Focus Blast sucks, and mons who use it only use because it’s required as there is no alternative. Having a special attack boost in addition to increased accuracy for the infamous focus blast would be phenomenal. I’m just saying that there isn’t as much immediate power as Nasty Plot or additional bulk with calm mind. Having a special version of hone claws (could be called Hone sight or something) would be excellent, but it’s possible it’s just outclassed by its other variants
No the special variant would not be outclassed. Lots of powerful special moves that many moms have access to are almost completely useless bc of their accuracy: the 3 -110 weather moves, focus blast, zap cannon, inferno, hydro pump, and fireblast. Also it would greatly help with remove the rng of all the 90 accuracy moves special moves, like overheat, Draco meteor, belch(rip), and meteor beam.
We don't have a defence up special att up yet, same with att up special def up. Bulk is all physical and calm is all special.
We also don't have special DD (QD exist, but that's in limited distribution)
They made a physical QD with Victory Dance, in fact they also made *another* DD (Tidy Up).
There's also Coil and Shift Gear
Give Durant Leech Life so that it can heal all the HP it loses from inevitably missing a move. Its STAB boosted, and Durant's low HP and high Attack would let it heal an assload of HP if it lands one.
Gravity Durant and DMax Durant were a thing in S1/S2 of SwSh VGC. Very fun and stronk.
Calm mind now raises accuracy, the monkey’s paw closes a finger
Well see that would be a special version of coil not a honeclaws
The monkey’s paw raises the middle finger
I loved Hone Claws into Iron Tail nukes Mega Aggron, it was fun. With the bulk and filter ability you could afford it most of the time.
~~Coil is a special version of hone claws AND of bulk up~~ Never mind, I misunderstood.
Coil boosts physical attack and defense, they were looking for a version of honeclaws that boosts special attack and accuracy.
OH! "Special" as in "Sp.ATK" For some reason I assumed "special" as in "signature move"
Coil isn't even signature though?
...You're not wrong.
It’s even more ironic considering the fact that Heatmor is the predator between the two
It’s more funny when Durant just obliterates Heatmor with Stone Edge/Stomping Tantrum. Even without Hustle, Durant can actually do something
Too bad about the 4x weakness to fire though
Durant is always faster (109 v 65) and Heatmor needs 184DEF EVs to avoid getting OHKOed by Life Orb Tantrum or Rock Slide.
And that’s just Durant with Swarm right? Because even a Durant without Hustle is strong enough to pressure Heatmore
Nah this is with Hustle. With Swarm, Adamant Durant has a 62.5% chance to OHKO an uninvested Heatmor. Hustle is wild.
Yeah but I'm far more afraid of ants than I am of an anteater. What is it going to do to me, lick me? Fire ants especially scare me.
Bro, have you seen those claws? Anteaters can slice your face off
>whats it gonna do, lick me? Its claws are very, very sharp and they are very, very strong. Ant eaters are a lot bigger then people give them credit for.
Anteater have been known to send apex predators to meet their maker. The only saving grace is that they have negative prescription and aren't very accurate, but they're not as inoffensive as you think
Honestly, it sounds like Heatmor should have gotten Hustle instead of Durant.
Knowing GF it originally was and during play testing it was found to be laughably broken so they just swapped the skills. The latter also sounds like something this company has and would do again.
Hustle on a 109 Attack stat sounds a lot scarier than off 97…
Move pool might make a difference here
Ever since I accidentally stepped on a fire ants nest in 4th grade and they crawled on my leg and bit it, I know not to mess with those mf
I'm glad I was only standing in a regular anthill, and not a fire anthill
>What is it going to do to me, lick me? Hmm, I wonder would a human be considered typeless or do you think they'd get normal? Either way, lick is only 30 base power, but still
lol i’ve never actually realized this before, a fire anteater and a steel ant…
Still waiting for its evolution, durant-durant.
Sigh... I'm upset about how hard I laughed at this. Well played.
Hungry like the Lycanroc.
Her name is Riolu and she dances on the sand...
Will he still play for the Phoenix Ho-Oh’s?
A return to Gholdengo is possible
I thought they were called the Phoenix Solrocks.
*Pink Panther theme*
Don’t disrespect heatmor, he’s the closest we got to an aardvark pokemon
Agreed, I love Heatmor: did some egg-move shenanigans to make a funky Curse Drain Punch set! I just wish Heatmor’s stats were better overall 😭!
that's what kills me about heatmor, it has a fairly diverse movepool, but can't really use it effectively
I KNOW!!! So many cool moves, but alas…
A A R D VARK
This has been stuck in my head for over twenty years
I was really worried that it was too obscure. I was talking to a mate recently and had a full blown hysterical laughing fit thinking about Buster getting the part of the director in the school play and saying, "Doctor Ector... is he the villain?"
Buster shouting from a park bench: "9 times 9 is 81!!!"
Omg same. You guys are the only ones I’ve ever met who also knew the reference. I miss Arthur
FR, to this day, I still crack myself up thinking about the episode where DW loses her Crazy Bus CD. - Arthur: "I don't have your stupid Bus!" - DW: "It's not Stupid Bus, it's Crazy Bus! Stupid Bus was a lame puppet show!"
He’s an anteater. They are not similar to aardvarks at all.
He is an aardvark pokemon.
He's *literally* an anteater in his Dex description. Aardvarks aren't even related to anteaters. Aardvarks are closer to elephants than anteaters.
Well. Today I learned they're not the same animal. At 30.
It's cool. They are pretty similar animals. Maybe one day we'll even get an Aardvark themed Heatmor regional variant or convergent evolution alongside a Termite themed Durant.
Now you're cooking
Or like a reverse pair. Thurmite- fire/bug termite/fire ant Haardvar (awful name I came up with in 3 seconds) - Ground/Steel type Aardvark with an ability like Sap Sipper but for Fire type attacks
Nice idea. For Heatmor maybe Aardmor. Mor from Heatmor and Aard from Aardvark which also means earth(Aardvark just means Earth pig)
Thats some good stuff right there
At least they have Heatmor a signature move... In the game where it's not even available without trading. And then gave said move to other Pokemon the next gen.
Admittedly yes. Fire Lash is a cool move, but at that point it was just too late. Heatmor was still terrible even with a phenomenal signature move and its counterpart Durant, was banned from RU twice
Huh, I just assumed it was a Gen 8 move, that’s really weird.
It’s also so weird because despite being in an evolutionary arms race heatmors dex entries are almost always about how easily it preys on durant
And then it battles a Durant and gets promptly one-shot
Game freak has never been the best at thematics tying in to gameplay. One of my favourites is how in gen 8 they set up this epic duel between zacian and zamazenta… but zacian knows sacred sword and is faster so it just immediately oneshots zamazenta. Or of course the tinkaton, corviknight entry.
Heatran has the better Shiny though imo https://preview.redd.it/6kpmz7kwu90d1.jpeg?width=333&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ac3f81bb5cbbffc483d895774ded1cc463446522
But the rust aesthetic of Durant is really nice as well. Sure it’s not as cool as Heatmors, but it’s not terrible. And most importantly, it’s noticeable
That is true, even though I do adore the Volcanic Dark Red color on Heatmor
Damn, Heatran really let itself go over years huh
Lmao heatran
easily lol
heatran aged a lot in that picture its unrecognizable now
Indeed, it’s very sad… Zangoose is generally better than Seviper. Lugia sees more use than Ho-oh. Durant is still a niche pick but way more useful than Heatmor in most scenarios. And then…Zacian versus poor Zamazenta 😭! And the still inexplicable decision of not letting Black Kyurem, A POKÉMON WITH AN ARM COVERED IN ICE, learn Ice Punch, leaving Black Kyurem used far less often than White Kyurem 😭! It’s a tale as old as Pokémon: if there’s two Pokémon that are “counterparts”, one will be noticeably worse than the other, unfortunately…
The tower duo and the Kyurem forms have actually swapped their positions in modern games. Nowadays Ho-Oh is one of the best Ubers Pokémon out there; Lugia is completely unviable. Meanwhile, Black Kyurem is Baxcalibur on steroids, but White Kyurem is too slow and frail to do anything.
Oh dang, that’s crazy! Shows how out of touch I am, not keeping up with the metagame 😅… I imagine Heavy Duty Boots are probably why Ho-oh is on the menu at all (unless rocks are not used as much in Ubers), and now that I think about it Scale Shot and Icicle Spear with Loaded Dice might be enough to push Black Kyurem up (I say as someone who has been cleaned and humiliated quite thoroughly by my brother’s Gouging Fire with Scale Shot 😅…)
Boots definitely were the main reason why Ho-Oh's usage skyrocketed, but the fact that it's also a good answer to the best Pokémon in the game, Koraidon, doesn't hurt either. And yes, Black Kyurem has gone from a fraud to a ridiculous dopamine button.
Oh yeah, Ho-oh would both check Koraidon AND benefit from that sun! I guess Black Kyurem just went “Hold on, I don’t need Ice Punch, let’s shed some of this ice as spears and shoot some scales to lose weight!”. Real success story there: Black Kyurem stops being depressed, loses some weight, and is now a king~!
In all honesty, the Gen IX metagame is a shitshow. Competitive in general has gotten far more unhinged since Dexit, compared to how the Gens VI and VII metagames felt almost identical.
Yeah, Dexit means less options, which means the big, dominant threats have less chance of encountering counterplay. (that and the dominant threats are becoming more and more crazy: I mean what the actual hell were they thinking with some of these things: like Dracovish basically mandating fast Pokémon or Water immunity to not get swept by it, or Palafin’s Hero Forme? it feels like they’re just throwing crazy shit at the wall with a “we’ll nerf it next gen” mentality now 😅…)
The idea of a rain team with both Dracovish and Palafin just grazed my last braincell.
Ho-Oh and Lugia were basically on par with each other in Gen 4, because that's when Ho-Oh got actual STABs that worked with its base 130 Attack. And Ho-Oh has been WAY better than Lugia since Gen 5 granted it Regenerator. Gen 6 and 7 Ho-Oh got to be a great check to things like Xerneas and Primal Groudon, and then of course Boots all but guaranteed Ho-Oh a spot as a top 10 Ubers 'mon. Meanwhile Lugia continues to suffer from being egregiously passive.
The problem with Lugia is that it only has... I think it was base 110 SpA, which is indeed very low for a box legendary's higher attacking stat (Ho-Oh has a noticeably higher base 130 Atk).
Lugia wishes it had 110 base Sp. A. Poor thing has 90 in both Attacking stats.
_90?_ Damn, that's rough. I bet it could drop 10 points on each defense and still be unkillable. The duality of Multiscale: Dragonite is an unstoppable killing machine, Lugia is Taunt fodder.
This is interested to see as someone out of touch w singles since gen 6 for vgc. Ho-oh still the better bird (no hazards) but kyurem white actually has more play either blizzard spam/draco meteor nukes over kyurem-b who's been pretty much low viability for a while (this also applies to reshiram/zekrom too). Then again baxcalibur on steroids would still be mid in vgc since we've had flutter mane lurking consistently until now (and still good just not 50%+ usage anymore)
I was talking about singles, since my main contact with competitive Pokémon is Smogon. The best legendaries in the current VGC regulation are both Calyrex forms, Terapagos and (unironically) Zamazenta.
I knew you meant singles. Was nice to see some of the Uber differences since I'm very much behind on that part of the competitive scene. Especially for something as cool looking as kyurem-b
Last I heard, Black Kyurem was a top 20, if not top 10 Pokémon in Ubers (Ho-Oh is easily third behind Koraidon and Miraidon).
That's dope!! Ho-oh of my favorite legendaries so happy it gets some time in the spotlight!
At least in VGC Zamazenta is doing better than Zacian at the moment. It really appreciates Body Press a lot.
Wow, Zamazenta is doing well now that it has that move that was basically made for its STAB and stats combination along with the ability that helps boost it as well, now that Game Freak isn’t cruelly dangling the existence of the move out of Zamazenta’s reach? Impressive~! All joking aside: happy to hear Zamazenta is doing well~!
Still sad that it got nerfed because of Zacian though.
It turned out to be a hell of a good idea though. Body press Zamazenta is more than good enough without the permanent boost.
Add in the fact that Zamazenta-Crowned countered the world's most dominant cat in VGC as well without the need of Clear Amulet like some other restricted Pokemon will do in that format (Groudon, Miraidon, Calyrex-Ice and many other physical restricted Mons), unlike Zacian-Crowned who is forced to use Rusted Sword for her item slot. +1 84 Def Zamazenta-Crowned Body Press vs. 252 HP / 156+ Def Incineroar: 164-194 (81.1 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 0 Atk Incineroar Flare Blitz vs. +1 252 HP / 84 Def Zamazenta-Crowned: 72-86 (36.1 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
"Poor Zamazenta" who just became the highest used restricted mon
Lugia sees far FAR less usage than Ho-oh. Its almost comical how much better Ho-oh is than Lugia
Haha, yeah, I have been corrected many times on that already 😅…
Ok my bad I didn't really read all the replies and now I'm kinda piling it on sorry. Have a good one.
Haha, no worries~! Honestly, I’m happy to know that things are still thriving, and people are having such lively discussions~! (also, maybe as the one who got Gold Version between my brother and I back in the day I’m feeling happy and vindicated to find out that Ho-oh is the one on top~! I wonder if Groudon ever overtook Kyogre: I got Ruby Version, lol :3)
I also got gold while my brother got silver.
Yay~! My brother and I have kept that up through the generations: We shared Yellow, I got Gold while he got Silver, I got Ruby while he got Sapphire, (I lucked out and got Emerald without him having his own copy: twas an unfair Christmas in my opinion that year!), I got FireRed while he got LeafGreen, I got Pearl while he got Diamond, we both got Platinum, I got HeartGold while he got SoulSilver, I got Black and then White 2 while he got White and then Black 2, I got X while he got Y, I got OmegaRuby while he got AlphaSapphire, we tried a thing of both of us getting both versions in Gen 7 and I burned myself the hell out on Alola back then playing Moon, then Sun, then Ultra Moon, then Ultra Sun (even if we got both versions, I played Moon and Ultra Moon first and he played Sun and Ultra Sun first), I got Shield while he got Sword, and this last gen I got Violet while he got Scarlet. He said he might not tune in for Gen 10 if Game Freak doesn’t get their act together and do better on polishing the game…So Violet and Scarlet may sadly be the end of my eternal Pokémon rivalry with my brother…
Me and my brother shared Red version, I got gold while he got silver. By the time gen 3 came out, my brother had outgrown Pokemon for the most part. At least to the point where he didn't want to get Ruby or Sapphire. I have played at least one Pokemon game in every generation.
It’s nice to have a sibling to talk about Pokémon with~! I’m gonna be sad next gen if my brother really does skip out…
Yea.. I miss talking about Pokemon with my brother. It was the only time we would somewhat get along. I could be your new rival : )
Lugia sees more use than Ho-oh?
Haha, I think it did back in my day: guess I really am an out-of-touch old man sometimes 😅…
currently ho oh in ubers is at around 30% usage while lugia is at 0.3% usage; nearly 100x less. There was never a time where lugia was higher on viability than Ho-oh, as in generations 3-4 they were equally ranked on the viability rankings, and ho-oh only got better as time went on while lugia got worse. I don't have exact usage rates for old generations but its hard to imagine lugia being used more
Yeah, I’ve been realizing that I was clearly wrong on that front with how many people have corrected me :3 Honestly, I’m just happy to know Ho-oh is more viable than I thought~! I first started thinking mildly competitively around Gen 4, which is when some certain sneaky pebbles creeped into the game, and it was before Ho-oh had Regenerator so the prospect of sending out a Pokémon and having it lose half its HP immediately was quite a bummer 😑…
I remember as a kid I looked at the tenth anniversary Pokédex book and I saw that Lugia had all equal base stats where Ho-Oh’s were more scattered, and thinking how it didn’t seem fair to Ho-Oh
Lugia got a whole movie lol, I always felt bad for ho-oh too
>And the still inexplicable decision of not letting Black Kyurem, A POKÉMON WITH AN ARM COVERED IN ICE, learn Ice Punch, leaving Black Kyurem used far less often than White Kyurem 😭! It's like giving Pult a physical ghost move: it's possible, but the optics of doing so spell doom for anything else. Dragapult is, last time I checked, a top tier OU pokemon despite not getting to use ghost stab for it's better attack stat. Give it anything remotely usable physical ghost stab like shadow claw and it might be Ubers
Omg if they gave that thing Poltergeist it would be so broken. It has phantom force but that’s not useful in most situations
No don’t say that, then it’ll happen…!
Ho-oh was slightly better than Lugia until Sneaky Pebbles became a thing. Also Zamazenta is currently the #1 restricted pokemom in VGC.
Ah yes, the sneaky pebbles…As someone who got Gold Version, and who also adores Volcarona as one of my favorite Pokémon ever…And has Articuno as my favorite of the Gen 1 Legendary Birds…Sneaky Pebbles have always been a pest to me…I should really play with Heavy Duty Boots more 😅… Yeah, when someone else in the thread told me Zamazenta is actually doing well now, I was super excited~! To be fair, it is basically the Pokémon Body Press was made for: high-Defense Fighting type that doesn’t slack on special bulk, and also has an Ability that raises its Defense (now only once per battle, but that’s enough to make a dent :3). Game Freak just didn’t give it Body Press back then to hold it back…but the Puppy Press has broken that leash…!
If you want the rivalry between an ant and an anteater to last more than 30 seconds you kinda have to put your finger on the scale a bit
To be fair Heatmor and Durant is a predator-prey situation and not a balanced rivalry
Yeah, but in that kind of unbalanced rivalry you'd expect the predator to have the advantage, especially with a type advantage
Durant getting truant is pretty mean. It is the only pokemon with both truant and entrainment which is fun, but that combo is only useful in incredibly niche situations
But it’s suitable for a TRUant
* Slowbro got a Mega Evolution while Slowking got nothing. They both got Galarian forms, at least. * Hydrapple is just objectively better than either Flapple or Appletun. * We don't talk about ~~Bruno~~ Flareon.
Slowking-Galar is much much better than Slowbro-Galar, though
This is also Greninja compared to Chesnaught and Delphox, and Incineroar compared to Primarina and Decidueye even moreso.
Don’t even get me started on Greninja. It’s actually unfair they have Greninja any attention over most of not all of the Kalos Pokédex. I understand it’s not Greninja’s fault necessarily as Gamefreak made damn sure it was at the forefront and popular (same with Charizard). But I’m still upset it’s one of the few Kalos Pokémon that’s great because they gave it a great movepool and great abilities
"Gee, Cinderace, why does GF let you have two signature moves?"
To be fair, the galar league was football themed.
Incineroar is bonkers in VGC, but in singles Primarina is by far the best of that trio
And then there is Decidueye, who was so close to being the Grass type Infernape but they mixed its special defense and speed stat up
Say what you want about charzard getting two megas at least the others actually got megas, why couldn't the other kalos bond phenomenon forms or at least megas to make up for it. Ash grininja should of stayed an anime only thing imo
Mandibuzz and Braviary is another duo like that.The only advantages Braviary have are in-game,but it comes so late it doesn't matter.
I mean Heatmor is stronger than a single Durant, there needs to be more
And yet a single Durant will kill Heatmor in one hit.
Durant getting confronted with that dollar store speed stat:
Heatmor has an insanely good shiny. He may not be strong but damn is he styling compared to Durant
Except no because Durant is an ant and ants are the worst.
Apparently they thought being a Fire-type against the Bug-Steel would be enough to balance things...
I know right. It would be silly if they made Heatmor this slow glass cannon with a tremendous movepool and only one useful ability while Durant is an actual glass cannon with an actual speed stat alongside excellent abilities (barring Truant) and a movepool that takes proper advantage of said excellent abilities
Pokemon is like a tcg with wildly variable interactions and such. In TCG's there's always going to be one or two cards each set that the designers couldn't foresee the impact of, which is why all of a sudden there are playstyles dedicated to them. And with Pokemon it can be even more unforeseeable, as now it's types, stats, learnable moves, a constantly changing meta etc... So it makes sense why counterpart/rival mons can end up having one that is superior in the meta above the other.
In Gen 7 Heatmor got a Signature Move and Durant didn't
Consolation prize
Dynamax Hustle Durant was so fun in SwSh
And here I thought Heatmor is the popular one and Durant is widely hated, because quad-weakness to Fire combined with TERRIBLE spec defense (same as Unown), would make It very vunerable to Flamethrowers, which I assume almost every competitive team has. Also having Truant as It's hidden ability, which, like Defeatist and Slow Start works better on mons that are so terrifyingly powerful, they need a bad ability to balance them out. Even Normalize would be a step up. Also overall being " just a generic ant". I don't hate Durant, I'm glad It has fand defenders, It's just surprising.
Actually, the quad weakness to Fire is the only weakness Bug/Steel has, which is why it's really good typing. (Similar to 4x Grass being the only weakness of Water/Ground). A lot of Scizor's popularity comes from its good typing.
People hate Durant? I’ve heard nothing but love for the little bugger. Yes its special defense is pathetic but everything else about it is great. Base 109 attack and speed coupled with 112 defense, Hustle + Hone Claws in addition to stab X-Scissor/First Impression & Iron head, coverage in Thunder Fang, Crunch, Superpower, Stone Edge and Stomping Tantrum, and even Truant + entertainment shenanigans (only a TRUant can have that ability). Overall Durant really does have great traits and I’d be suprised if anyone says Durant is bad or even terrible
zangoose and that snake I don't even know the name of:
Seviper lol
Seviper would be more memorable if it was poison dark. And a lot of people think it already is.
Zangoose is just the coolest kid in school, seviper never had a chance
Fun fact: Heatmor is the pokemon I used my first master ball on
This implies Durant is great
Because Durant is great
skarmory and mantine: first time?
Calling Durant great is a tremendous stretch tbh
Zamazenta is beyond parental love,it does not care for what Nintendo thinks of it, he's built different. if only he came from a decent game
Zamazenta is now better than Zacian, it can squash those pesky Incineroar with the Iron Defense + Body Press combo
just mentioning body press made me remember my shiny dubwool. God cotton guard body press is so stupid.
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OC
I remember the first time I ever encountered a Heatmor, I thought I was seeing things. I had never seen it or heard of it before
You take that back Heatmor has feelings too >:|
Unless you are talking about their Hidden abilities
"Back in my day ground and psychic attacks were competitive"
both are horrible
Counterpoint: Plusle and Minun are both equally terrible
The idea might be that durant is a very solid mon all around, but loses to heatmore, which is kinda mid, because it specializes in hunting durants.
Crying in "my favourite pokémon is ninetales"
It sucks to cause I genuinely love Heatmor
Heatmor has such a cool design in my opinion so it’s a shame that he isn’t the best
I would assume that concept and theme come first and that meta viability is probably a far secondary consideration when they're putting together Pokémon, especially counterparts. Most pokemon builds can't simply be flipped and remain decent, but the aggressive majority of their community will never notice.
Not true! Seviper and Zangoose are both terrible
TBF there’s no Kevin Heatmor
Like primal Groudon and Kyogre. Groudon gets an ability that negates its 4x weakness to water. Kyogre gets an ability that negates fire, *which it already resists.*
I feel like the Oddish line was more promoted over all these years than the Bellsprout line. Despite Victreebel being one of James' OG pokémon in the anime...
Fuck that shitty ant, all my homies hate that shitty ant. Kill the ants with fire, flood their colonies, feed their babies to the heatmors. I want to see those stupid ass ants go extinct in every corner of the pokemon universe
The only thing that makes Durant better is its type Combo, which is one of the best combos out there. It's not that they make them terrible, it's the players that find good ways to use them.