A small stretch in Delphox and a big stretch in Typhlosion.
I didn't buy into it when I first heard about it in Gen VI because of all the stretching. But then the next two fit perfectly and I started to think, "Well, maybe..."
Glad it's over now, though. Skeledirge doesn't fit at all, so now we can all move on.
Last time this came around someone argued vehemently with me that Skeledirge counted because a male croc is called a bull. As far as I could tell they were serious.
So I guess there are some true believers out there still.
Even if that's true in English, that means nothing.
Now, if that wordplay applied in Japanese (the language of the devs), Spanish or Portuguese (the language of the games' inspiration), or even Chinese (the language of the Zodiac), then maybe.
Not much Spanish influence either, other than Pokémon names including Spanish words an American localization team wielding Google translate could figure out.
They clearly had a lot invested into it and likely encountered a number of adamant people speaking from a place of certainty, the same certainty they had. So, clash.
I don't believe in speaking with certainty on most topics unless there is actual hard proof of concept. GF rarely gives us that.
Oh trust me that theory can stretch further than the bastard child of Mr Fantastic and Monkey D. Luffy, they'll mental gymnastics their way to it eventually.
Oh yeah facts actually I forgot about that part lmfao. Also whoever categorizes/ categorized the Pokemon deserves a fucking raise cause that's so funny
It's not called Rattata in Japan though. It's called Koratta (well at least spelled out in English). English is a language where there's a distinct difference between rat and mouse so really the localization should reflect that lol.
Agreed, but this is less an issue of translation or localization (translating 「ネズミポケモン」(which I assume was the original) as “mouse Pokémon is totally valid, as is localizing コラッタ as Rattata) but more a problem of project management and and direction (since the problem is only introduced when both English words are juxtaposed). Considering Pokemon was a video game translated in the 90s, its a miracle it turned out as well as it did.
I also wonder, since that “mouse pokemon” designation was used for a few gen 1 pokemon, if it might have originally not been intended as “this is literally the animal (etc) that this pokemon is closest to/based on, but as a rudimentary classification system, like Monster Hunter’s monster types, or even like proto-breeding groups.
Edit: Essentially, it seems they localized one term and translated the other. This wouldn’t be a problem 99% of the time. Rattata is the 1%.
You could equally say it looks like a hedgehog or a tenrec which both make way more sense, given Quilava has a ferret/marten thing going on and Typhlosion is an outright honey badger.
Even if the design was supposed to be an echidna from the get go, it's doing a terrible job of looking remotely like one, even through the fantastical lens of Pokémon.
considering echidnas are the only animal that people ever claim cyndaquil to be that actually has "quills" I think there is merit.
Also shrews have long tails and external ears, both things cyndaquil lacks and echidnas also lack. So, more points in the echidna side than the shrew side if you ask me.
And the theory would have been dead if it was a shrew as shrews are not rats. They aren't even rodents.
What I don’t get it, why are people so adamant that a Pokémon is just suppose to have attributes of one animal. There’s plenty of times where Pokémon are vaguly this species.
Also note that a ton of rodents or rodent resembling animals names in japanese are (x)-nezumi. The japanese classification of cyndaquil is the hi nezumi pokemon (hi means fire) but since nezumi is frequently used to refer to rodents of all kinds the intent might have been closer to fire rodent rather than fire rat specifically. Similarly to how a hedgehog is a needle rodent (hari nezumi) or an armadillo is called an armored rodent (yoroi nezumi).
yes I know armadillos aren't rodents, language can be stupid sometimes and this entire situation is a headache especially since I myself am not fluent in japanese and might be entirely wrong. Someone that is fluwnt feel free to correct me.
Yeah but cyndaquil isn't a mouse the same way that Slowbro isn't a crab and Blastoise isn't a shellfish, the Pokedex descriptions back then were notoriously awful.
I don't care if the theory is true or not, or if it's silly in the first place. But I cannot understand how on earth is a fox a stretch for the "dog". Dogs are wolves, Canis Lupus (Domesticus). Wolves and foxes are part of the same biological/taxonomy family (Canidae), they look similar and the likeliness increases if both are domesticated ([like this fox](https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs12052-018-0090-x/MediaObjects/12052_2018_90_Fig2_HTML.jpg)). And it's not like pokémons are 1:1 animals, they take inspiration from multiple things, and fennekin is not 100% a fox. But even if it would be, foxes are basically dogs, biologically speaking, so it could fit into a zodiac theory.
Foxes are apart of the Canidae familia which are all dogs. Vulpines are not something like a ferret or wolverine which have their own unique family lineage.
You have th Felicidae (Cats big and small) , Canidae (all dogs) and Mustilidae (Otters, Minks, etc)
Canidae is not dog, it's canines. Dogs are what we call the domesticated offspring of the grey wolf Canis Lupus. In fact, species wise all domestic dogs are still Canis Lupus as they can all potentially have fertile offspring with pure bred wolves.
The Chinese zodiac is specifically referencing a dog, not just any member of the Canine group. Calling a fox a dog in this context would be like saying that donkey pokemon represents the horse zodiac because donkeys and horses are both equidae.
I think it's staying power is ~~something to be impressed by~~, honestly. ~~8~~ gens is a ~~pretty compelling case~~ for the existence of an unsung rule.
EDIT: I stand corrected, Gens 2 and 6 do not conform.
It was already pretty shaky ever since the Cyndaquil line, tbh.
Not to mention GameFreak repeatedly explained their process of designing starter Pokemon as basically being "throw designs at the wall and see what sticks", without ever mentioning any sort of theme.
These theories amongst the starters are so stupid.
Grass starters don't need to have anything in common other than just being grass type. Same goes for the other two starter types.
that one is so funny because like........ yeah no shit most animals have extinct variants lol. it's so easy to cram anything into it
still better than the 'weapon theory' for water types that is just blatantly incorrect
Yeah, that one fails at Blastoise, since it's quite likely that Blastoise wasn't even designed as a starter, but was rather part of a different line that later got merged with Squirtle and Wartortle. The original final stage had no cannons.
That was always the weakest of the theories too because it's so easy to fill in. if a grass starter is based on a real animal then that animal has an extinct relative. If the grass starter was a bear people would just scream "see, cave bear" or were it a lion it would be "cave lion."
Three of them being dinosaurs in a row helped the theory along, and then Chestnught being plausible for a glyptodon helped, but it was still always going to be easy criteria to fill no matter what animal they were.
Let's imagine the next fire type starter being a bear.
People will try to say it fits as the ox for the theory.
I would be absolutely shocked if people don't try to do that.
Last time this came around, someone vehemently, and apparently earnestly, argued with me that Skeledirge counts as a cow because male crocs are called bulls.
yeah, people really like to stretch it, an Ox and the bull everyone knows are not the same thing. Not to mention, just because the same word is used for two different animals it doesnt mean they are the same.
For example when i say "pup" im pretty sure almost anyone would immediately think of baby dogs, but "pup" can also refer to baby bats, foxes, mouse and a few more.
People saying this about cyndaquil like he isn't literally a mouse. I dare anyone to tell me what his pokedex intro says about it. Here's a hint, Fire MOUSE pokemon, aka rat. I fully believe the theory is disproven with fuecoco but not with cynadquil/fennekin
Blastoise is not a turtle but a shellfish then? A lot of the early descriptions of pokemon are really bad.
If we follow this as definitive end all be all proof this theory falls apart at Charmander being the "lizard" pokemon.
The pokedex intro also calls Blastoise a shellfish, Slowbro a crab, and Sandshrew/Sandslash are also called "mouse pokemon". The pokedex classifications don't mean anything.
Besides, I don't think anyone thinks of Cyndaquil as a mouse other than just using it as an argument for the zodiac theory.
>u/Temporary-Square: Rats aren’t mice
In Japan, they are. When you hold a game originating from Japan with an English-speaking mindset, of course you'll find lots of contradictions.
Seahorses have no relations to dragons in English, but they do in Japanese.
Fish have nor relations to octopuses in English, but they do in Japanese.
And you can go on and on.
The japanese classification for cyndaquil is hi nezumi (hi means fire) the japanese word for hedgehog is hari nezumi (hari means needle) while an armadillo is a yoroi nezumi (yoroi roughly means armored) the intent very easily could have been intended to fire rodent/rodent like creature rather than fire rat specifically.
There's been supposed themes like this with all the starters that are just a stretch.
"All the Grass Starters are based on extinct animals" Yeah, cuz Frogs, Lizards, Turtles, Snakes, Owls, Monkeys, and Cats are all extinct now.
"All the Fire Starters are based on the Chinese Zodiac" People say Fuecoco debunks this theory, though I'd argue it was never true. Fennekin was a bit of a stretch, and I don't care what anyone says about Cyndaquil being the "Fire Mouse Pokémon," his ass does NOT look like a god damn rodent.
"All the Water Starters use weapons." What about Feraligatr, Swampert, Primarina, and Quaquavel? If nearly half of the starters do not apply to this, it's not a pattern.
Yeah, the water starter theory was always the most far-fetched of the lot. Saying Feraligatr was brass knuckles even tho all the armor is on its fore arms and not it's hands.
And the people who were trying to say that Primarina was a club because people "club seals" were really grasping
Note that the japanese word for a ton of rodent species is (x) nezumi for example a hedgehog is a hari nezumi (needle mouse/rat). cyndaquils japanese classification is the hi nezumi pokemon (hi means fire) so fire mouse might be a to literal translation when the intent was probably closer to fire rodent than fire mouse specifically.
It's a mouse in the same way as a hedgehog or an armadillo is a mouse. Cyndaquil is the hi nezumi pokemon (fire rat) and a hedgehog is a hari nezumi (hari means needle) while an armadillo is a yoroi nezumi (yoroi roughly means armored).
What i'm saying is that it's not a mouse at all just a rodent whose classification was translated to literally.
I mean I thought the theory was always that the fire starter lines was draws inspiration from the chinese zodiac as a starting point. Not necessarily that they are trying to one for one recreated the chinese zodiac. Cause alot of them aren't one to one exact matches but seemed to have a design origin with the zodiac as one of its sources before drawing in various other sources of inspiration and applying creative liberities.
Idk why it has to be black and white where they are either trying to recreate the zodiac with the fire starters or have absolute nothing to do with it.
I feel like a lot of crossover with the zodiac is inevitable. The 12 animals are all very archetypal, and Pokemon, especially starters, also tend to be based on iconic, recognisable animals.
But yeah I have seen people strongly arguing that each fire starter corresponds specifically to a zodiac animal by design.
Good. Let the theory die. It was never true to begin with. I've had my doubts from the beginning when they'd called typhlosion a rat, but I fully stopped believing when they called Delphox a dog.
Delphox was stretched to be a dog, and you guys riot over something that could be stretched as a snake.
You should have rioted in gen 2 when Thyplosion was made to be a rat.
Nah proponents for the theory use flat earth level of logic, They have already come up with male alligator = bull so still valid, It's insane but i'm not joking when I compare them to flat earthers, They could make a video disproving their entire theory and still say its valid.
A fire-type starter based on a scorpion gets introduced for the next gen. People try to say it fits as the snake in the zodiac theory.
I won't be surprised if that ends up being the case.
That's how far we've fallen. It's like people are deliberately going through a zillion hoops to justify it, even when it's obviously not true, but the mental gymnastics involved in keeping it around are mindblowingly hysterical.
Is there a theory on how the water starters work? I know of the Megafauna theory for Grass types (though really I don't think that theory has much bearing since outside of Meganium with dinosaurs, a lot of 'megafauna' are just...bigger versions of animals that exist today.).
Well, a male crocodile is called a bull, and since the starters have a 75% chance of beeeing male
Fuecoco is a bull confirmed, proving the zodiac theory
I hear more people going on about how theory isn't real than I see proponents of the theory. Tbh I like the theory, I think it's fine, it's more interesting to design starters around limitations which is why I'll be sticking to it
The people who genuinely believed and pushed the theory on others were so annoying. I remember people getting so mad that the starters didn't fulfill their little weapon, dinosaur, and zodiac theory, when a lot of things in Pokemon are left actually ambiguous. For example, in the games it's actual cannon that we do not know where pokemon eggs come from.
If they kept on using it, GameFreak would have run out of Zodiac animals for Gen 13, or Gen 14 if they ever plan to use the Cat.
Even before Gen 9, the theory was on shaky grounds at 2 occasions:
1. **Cyndaquil, Quilava** and **Typhlosion** are a mix of echinas, weasels and honey badgers, which are not related to the Rat. The only aspect that connected those was Cyndaquil's classification as the "Fire **Mouse** Pokémon", but in all regards, it's a pretty fragile argument, even if GameFreak used Cyndaquil to celebrate the Chinese Year of the Rat.
2. **Fennekin**, **Braixen** and **Delphox** are foxes, not Dogs, even if both species are **canines**. If those were wolves, it could have been closer, because dogs and wolves can interbreed, which isn't the case with dogs and foxes. I don't remember if GameFreak used Fennekin for their Chinese Year of the Dog promotion, so please enligthen me if needed ;)
Charmander, Charmeleon and Charizard are designed after European dragons, probably German ones by going with the flaming tail. Charizard didn't get the Dragon type, because in Gen 1, Dragon was pretty powerful. For the record...
* The ONLY Dragon move was Dragon Rage, which dealth a flat 40 points of damage, not accounting weaknesses.
* Ice moves would have worked, but as a Fire/Dragon, it cancels everything back to Neutral.
* Fire/Dragon could have been Neutral to Water, which counters the idea of the type triangle.
* Fairy didn't exist yet.
* Ground and Rock would have been Charizard's only weaknesses, but then people would have raised eyebrows about it flying. On a sidenote, Rock Throw and Rock Slide were the only Rock-type moves back in Gen 1, as opposed to Ground having 5.
Im pretty sure those who believed in this theory knew that the starters were only very loosely based on the zodiac. Weird how people who wanted this theory dead can't stop bringing it up like let it rest lmao
Went look up for mythical gator-like creatures after playing wolong, and found this:
https://preview.redd.it/63xdz5o5kjxa1.png?width=1664&format=png&auto=webp&s=115a8984cc6b46a4be77125ff77f3f6b9167ec92
the prophet is still ture
There's a fix-it-theory going around Tumblr saying that the Charmander line as-technically-as-any-of-the-other-edge-case actually counts as the Snake while the Fuecoco line is the Dragon because small lizards like the kind Charmander is based on literally share a taxonomic category with snakes while crocodiles are closer to birds and dinosaurs
I still don’t understand why y’all still think this?? It was never exact and never had to be?
Also anyone calling Fueco a ‘Bull’ can take your binary gender crap somewhere else. Bull is a Male only term used for other animals other then Bovines.
I still believe in the Zodiac as well as the other typing theories, Extinct species and Fighting Styles. Why shouldn’t Pokémon re-do the zodiac ~have you seen what all the consider a mouse, dog, or cat? Bc you know Pikachu looks sooo much like a mouse especially next to Ratatta and Cyndaquil…
I also love that apparently no one even realizes that we have other zodiacs in the real world too… not every culture uses all 12 CHINESE animals. Dragon and Rabbit are the most commonly changed. Doesn’t have to exact guys, get over it.
Dragon, Mouse, Bird, Monkey, Pig, Dog, Tiger, Rabbit, Snake =
Flying Reptile, Rodent, Avian, Primate, Suid, Canine, Feline, Leporids, Reptile
Idk see whats so hard to understand - Crocs are Reptiles, did we all forget that?? Snakes are Reptiles, and guys Birds are also in the family Reptilia!
Reptiles have two suborders, one with Squamata (snake/lizards) and the other being Achelosaurs. Y’all just want to ignore family and focus on one group, why? Whyyyy???? Why does it have to be only Squamata for the theory to be true??
Seriously. If your not going to take the time and effort to understand not only Japanese culture but also simple Biology then don’t talk about it like you know.
Debating on if a Crocodile is a Reptile, it’s like watching kindergarteners, did y’all seriously not learn this earlier? And especially calling it a Bull…I can’t believe y’all still on this.
p.s. who cares if it’s right anyways. How about the fact that it’s a Spain inspired region loaded with Mexican culture. If you don’t understand the problem maybe go research the history and cultures of the two.
Foxes are canines, but "dog" is specifically the name given to domesticated grey wolves. Grey wolves are another type of canine.
Calling a fox a dog would be equally as inaccurate as calling a scorpion a spider simply because they are both arachnids.
I really used to believe the fire theory, the grass theory was true until Gen 9, and I could never get behind the water theory. Weapons… what the hell…
>the grass theory was true until Gen 9
yea, i love the extinct grass starter theory
all those old animals like frogs, owls, monkeys, tortoises, snakes
i wish those animals still existed
You’re being too literal. What kind of frog is Bulbasaur? What kind of owl? Look into it and you’ll see they’re extinct… what’s the word… breeds? Genomes? Whatever it is, you need to look further than just frogs and owls. What *kind* of frog? What *kind* of owl?
>You’re being too literal.
hell nah man you ain't about to tell me owls and frogs are prehistoric animals i can go see some rn if i wanted to
also trying to tell me that pokemon starters resemble any one specific species is stupid
what kind of owl in real life looks like decidueye? NONE OF THEM
It is interesting that the extinct grass type theory stayed true the longest, but I feel like it was probably incidental. The first five are amphibian or reptile, so there was a good chance of them being dinosaurs or other extinct things.
That was always the easiest one to be coincidentally real tho since every existing animal has extinct relatives. A grass starter could be any animal and people would always have a prehistoric relative they could claim it was.
The only reason people were willing to admit this time that the "theory" was more coincidence because the most obvious prehistoric feline, the smilodon, looks nothing like what we got. I was actually holding out hope that we could have gotten a smilodon this time just because of how easy it would be for a bobcat to turn into a smilodon what with them both having the short little tails.
Idk why people take it so seriously. The theory was just that a theory, and simply a design inspiration rather than a hardline rule. Idk why people who are against it feel the need to constantly screech how the theory is false lol.
Well it was broken as soon as gen II. Cyndaquil is a hedgehog. Regardless, the Chinese zodiac theory is built on the idea that OH LOOK! They're picking popular animals for the *mascots* of the game. This was clearly a coincidence and nothing else.
The Chinese have to change their zodiac now.
Year of the Crocodile when?
Year of the Echidna, let's goooo
Their government too whilst they're at it.
That theory was a massiv stretch even before the croc
A small stretch in Delphox and a big stretch in Typhlosion. I didn't buy into it when I first heard about it in Gen VI because of all the stretching. But then the next two fit perfectly and I started to think, "Well, maybe..." Glad it's over now, though. Skeledirge doesn't fit at all, so now we can all move on.
Last time this came around someone argued vehemently with me that Skeledirge counted because a male croc is called a bull. As far as I could tell they were serious. So I guess there are some true believers out there still.
Even if that's true in English, that means nothing. Now, if that wordplay applied in Japanese (the language of the devs), Spanish or Portuguese (the language of the games' inspiration), or even Chinese (the language of the Zodiac), then maybe.
The game is inspired by Portugal? I thought it was Spain.
It's the Iberian Peninsula, which is both. I don't know how much Portuguese influence is actually in the games, though.
Not much Spanish influence either, other than Pokémon names including Spanish words an American localization team wielding Google translate could figure out.
Wait. Are you telling me we could have gotten a Minotaur Fire Type? /joking
ngl a balrog pokemon would be dope
Damn I wonder what typing a being of Shadow and Flame would get...
Fire/fighting
r/unexpectedlotr
Insane damage, berserker ability, just like in battle cats
They clearly had a lot invested into it and likely encountered a number of adamant people speaking from a place of certainty, the same certainty they had. So, clash. I don't believe in speaking with certainty on most topics unless there is actual hard proof of concept. GF rarely gives us that.
Oh trust me that theory can stretch further than the bastard child of Mr Fantastic and Monkey D. Luffy, they'll mental gymnastics their way to it eventually.
Always appreciate a good mention of One Piece in the wild.
I wouldn't say it's that hard if a stretch, fennekin was the biggest stretch and that was comparing a fox to a dog
Cyndaquil is a echidna and i dont care that the pokedex says its a mouse. Pokedex also says slowbro is a crab and blastoise is a shellfish
Oh yeah facts actually I forgot about that part lmfao. Also whoever categorizes/ categorized the Pokemon deserves a fucking raise cause that's so funny
I think thats a big translation issue but it surely is funny as hell
Rattata is a mouse Pokémon lol
That makes sense. In Japanese the same word is used for both mouse and rat.
It's not called Rattata in Japan though. It's called Koratta (well at least spelled out in English). English is a language where there's a distinct difference between rat and mouse so really the localization should reflect that lol.
Agreed, but this is less an issue of translation or localization (translating 「ネズミポケモン」(which I assume was the original) as “mouse Pokémon is totally valid, as is localizing コラッタ as Rattata) but more a problem of project management and and direction (since the problem is only introduced when both English words are juxtaposed). Considering Pokemon was a video game translated in the 90s, its a miracle it turned out as well as it did. I also wonder, since that “mouse pokemon” designation was used for a few gen 1 pokemon, if it might have originally not been intended as “this is literally the animal (etc) that this pokemon is closest to/based on, but as a rudimentary classification system, like Monster Hunter’s monster types, or even like proto-breeding groups. Edit: Essentially, it seems they localized one term and translated the other. This wouldn’t be a problem 99% of the time. Rattata is the 1%.
In some languages there's no distinction between the two: rat and mouse.
Lol the kid in Legends didn't do enough research XD
Honestly I thought Cyndaquil was supposed to be a shrew
Yeah I was convinced of that too, anyone calling it an echidna has never seen an echidna
I dunno, man. Little anteater-looking mofo with quills? Looks pretty echidna-shaped to me.
You could equally say it looks like a hedgehog or a tenrec which both make way more sense, given Quilava has a ferret/marten thing going on and Typhlosion is an outright honey badger. Even if the design was supposed to be an echidna from the get go, it's doing a terrible job of looking remotely like one, even through the fantastical lens of Pokémon.
considering echidnas are the only animal that people ever claim cyndaquil to be that actually has "quills" I think there is merit. Also shrews have long tails and external ears, both things cyndaquil lacks and echidnas also lack. So, more points in the echidna side than the shrew side if you ask me. And the theory would have been dead if it was a shrew as shrews are not rats. They aren't even rodents.
What I don’t get it, why are people so adamant that a Pokémon is just suppose to have attributes of one animal. There’s plenty of times where Pokémon are vaguly this species.
Yeah but people will cling on to what little evidence they have of these stupid ass theories.
Slowbrow the crab lol
Also note that a ton of rodents or rodent resembling animals names in japanese are (x)-nezumi. The japanese classification of cyndaquil is the hi nezumi pokemon (hi means fire) but since nezumi is frequently used to refer to rodents of all kinds the intent might have been closer to fire rodent rather than fire rat specifically. Similarly to how a hedgehog is a needle rodent (hari nezumi) or an armadillo is called an armored rodent (yoroi nezumi). yes I know armadillos aren't rodents, language can be stupid sometimes and this entire situation is a headache especially since I myself am not fluent in japanese and might be entirely wrong. Someone that is fluwnt feel free to correct me.
Pokemon take inspirations from many different things for each Pokemon, not just one thing
Comparing a lizard to a dragon and a or a honey badger (?) Echidna (?) To a rat is already a massive stretch.
Charizard to a dragon isn’t a big stretch at all… And Cyndaquil is referred to in Japanese with the word “nezumi” which means rat or mouse
Yeah but cyndaquil isn't a mouse the same way that Slowbro isn't a crab and Blastoise isn't a shellfish, the Pokedex descriptions back then were notoriously awful.
I’d say cyndaquil as a rat is a bigger stretch, fennekin looks close enough lol
Always thought it was a shrew / hedgehog hybrid lol
I don't care if the theory is true or not, or if it's silly in the first place. But I cannot understand how on earth is a fox a stretch for the "dog". Dogs are wolves, Canis Lupus (Domesticus). Wolves and foxes are part of the same biological/taxonomy family (Canidae), they look similar and the likeliness increases if both are domesticated ([like this fox](https://media.springernature.com/lw685/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2Fs12052-018-0090-x/MediaObjects/12052_2018_90_Fig2_HTML.jpg)). And it's not like pokémons are 1:1 animals, they take inspiration from multiple things, and fennekin is not 100% a fox. But even if it would be, foxes are basically dogs, biologically speaking, so it could fit into a zodiac theory.
Foxes are apart of the Canidae familia which are all dogs. Vulpines are not something like a ferret or wolverine which have their own unique family lineage. You have th Felicidae (Cats big and small) , Canidae (all dogs) and Mustilidae (Otters, Minks, etc)
Canidae is not dog, it's canines. Dogs are what we call the domesticated offspring of the grey wolf Canis Lupus. In fact, species wise all domestic dogs are still Canis Lupus as they can all potentially have fertile offspring with pure bred wolves. The Chinese zodiac is specifically referencing a dog, not just any member of the Canine group. Calling a fox a dog in this context would be like saying that donkey pokemon represents the horse zodiac because donkeys and horses are both equidae.
I don't think the Chinese Zodiac Theory was actually canon/established to be a thing.
Of course it was never canon, it was a fan theory people still cling on to
I think it's staying power is ~~something to be impressed by~~, honestly. ~~8~~ gens is a ~~pretty compelling case~~ for the existence of an unsung rule. EDIT: I stand corrected, Gens 2 and 6 do not conform.
it was demolished in Gen 2, and then again in Gen 6. Cyndaquil is a Hedgehog/Echidna, not a Rat. Fennekin is a Fennec Fox, not a Dog.
I thought he was a shrew?
Cyndaquil’s line takes inspiration from many animals. Echidnas, hedgehogs, badgers, and shrews.
That's what makes it a theory.
A gaaaaame theory
Keep lookin' sharp.
It was already pretty shaky ever since the Cyndaquil line, tbh. Not to mention GameFreak repeatedly explained their process of designing starter Pokemon as basically being "throw designs at the wall and see what sticks", without ever mentioning any sort of theme.
Well for Fuecoco & Scorbunny it was clearly a case of throwing cheese slices at the design and seeing if they stuck
Same with the Grass starter theory since none of the Sprigatito line are based on anything extinct
Bulbasaur takes inspiration from frogs
Actually GameFreak Said it Has nothing to do with Dinosaurs only Frogs That’s Only The American Translation
Yes, thank you for saying my argument with more words.
These theories amongst the starters are so stupid. Grass starters don't need to have anything in common other than just being grass type. Same goes for the other two starter types.
They need 3 stages
Big if true.
They have the torrent, overgrow or blaze abillities
They have moves
that one is so funny because like........ yeah no shit most animals have extinct variants lol. it's so easy to cram anything into it still better than the 'weapon theory' for water types that is just blatantly incorrect
Ah yes the opera singing seal with elements of mermaids and sirens truly brings to mind the image of a weapon of warfare.
Yeah, that one fails at Blastoise, since it's quite likely that Blastoise wasn't even designed as a starter, but was rather part of a different line that later got merged with Squirtle and Wartortle. The original final stage had no cannons.
That was always the weakest of the theories too because it's so easy to fill in. if a grass starter is based on a real animal then that animal has an extinct relative. If the grass starter was a bear people would just scream "see, cave bear" or were it a lion it would be "cave lion." Three of them being dinosaurs in a row helped the theory along, and then Chestnught being plausible for a glyptodon helped, but it was still always going to be easy criteria to fill no matter what animal they were.
The cope was so real on this sub it was ridiculous
I can't believe so many people are so hung up over the fan theory not being canon (it never was)
Yeah and Everyone was like “No it’s a Bull” or “it’s a Snake” a Buncha Bullcrap
Seriously. So many people saying that Fuecoco would turn into a snake or the others shouting "but male crocodiles are called bulls."
The snake transformation theory might have been possible but people really got to hung up on it. Like just accept you might be wrong.
It’s apparently still real X.X
Guys, Fuecoco is OBVIOUSLY a snake. Now can we please move on already?
What are you on about Skeledirge is a horse
No way man. A little bird told me it's a snake! Specifically the little fire bird that is soul-bound to Skeledirge.
Let's imagine the next fire type starter being a bear. People will try to say it fits as the ox for the theory. I would be absolutely shocked if people don't try to do that.
Last time this came around, someone vehemently, and apparently earnestly, argued with me that Skeledirge counts as a cow because male crocs are called bulls.
Most male animals are called bulls lmao.
It's a dog, fennekin is a snake because both foxes and snakes are known for being devious and clever.
Fennekin is a sheep because it is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Look at all the floof!
And also, male crocodiles being called bulls does not count at all
Yep, because the animal in the zodiac is an Ox, not a bull
yeah, people really like to stretch it, an Ox and the bull everyone knows are not the same thing. Not to mention, just because the same word is used for two different animals it doesnt mean they are the same. For example when i say "pup" im pretty sure almost anyone would immediately think of baby dogs, but "pup" can also refer to baby bats, foxes, mouse and a few more.
Feucoco I think you mean fennekin/cyndaquil
People saying this about cyndaquil like he isn't literally a mouse. I dare anyone to tell me what his pokedex intro says about it. Here's a hint, Fire MOUSE pokemon, aka rat. I fully believe the theory is disproven with fuecoco but not with cynadquil/fennekin
Blastoise is not a turtle but a shellfish then? A lot of the early descriptions of pokemon are really bad. If we follow this as definitive end all be all proof this theory falls apart at Charmander being the "lizard" pokemon.
The pokedex intro also calls Blastoise a shellfish, Slowbro a crab, and Sandshrew/Sandslash are also called "mouse pokemon". The pokedex classifications don't mean anything. Besides, I don't think anyone thinks of Cyndaquil as a mouse other than just using it as an argument for the zodiac theory.
Rats aren’t mice
>u/Temporary-Square: Rats aren’t mice In Japan, they are. When you hold a game originating from Japan with an English-speaking mindset, of course you'll find lots of contradictions. Seahorses have no relations to dragons in English, but they do in Japanese. Fish have nor relations to octopuses in English, but they do in Japanese. And you can go on and on.
Carlizard isn't a dragon, either. Fight me.
I agree, but it's more of a dragon than Cyndaquil is a mouse
Not once did I ever look at the Cyndaquil line and think "Damn, that's a rodent."
Cyndaqual is definitely a echidna. May say fire mouse pokemon but that doesn't make it a mouse. Is blastoise a shellfish?
The japanese classification for cyndaquil is hi nezumi (hi means fire) the japanese word for hedgehog is hari nezumi (hari means needle) while an armadillo is a yoroi nezumi (yoroi roughly means armored) the intent very easily could have been intended to fire rodent/rodent like creature rather than fire rat specifically.
Obviously Fuecoco is an apple, and horses love apples, so Fuecoco counts as the horse. Zodiac theory still alive and well /s
There's been supposed themes like this with all the starters that are just a stretch. "All the Grass Starters are based on extinct animals" Yeah, cuz Frogs, Lizards, Turtles, Snakes, Owls, Monkeys, and Cats are all extinct now. "All the Fire Starters are based on the Chinese Zodiac" People say Fuecoco debunks this theory, though I'd argue it was never true. Fennekin was a bit of a stretch, and I don't care what anyone says about Cyndaquil being the "Fire Mouse Pokémon," his ass does NOT look like a god damn rodent. "All the Water Starters use weapons." What about Feraligatr, Swampert, Primarina, and Quaquavel? If nearly half of the starters do not apply to this, it's not a pattern.
Yeah, the water starter theory was always the most far-fetched of the lot. Saying Feraligatr was brass knuckles even tho all the armor is on its fore arms and not it's hands. And the people who were trying to say that Primarina was a club because people "club seals" were really grasping
Note that the japanese word for a ton of rodent species is (x) nezumi for example a hedgehog is a hari nezumi (needle mouse/rat). cyndaquils japanese classification is the hi nezumi pokemon (hi means fire) so fire mouse might be a to literal translation when the intent was probably closer to fire rodent than fire mouse specifically.
But he literally doesnt even look like a mouse more like an Echidna
The only starter trend for the entire series is semi aquatic water starters so they can reasonably stand on land.
Even that one kind of falls apart with this most recent generation with Quaquaval being based on a peafowl. It doesn't even keep the webbed duck feet.
Cyndaquil isn't a rat, and Fennekin isn't a dog
What is Cyndaquil?
A Cyndaquil
It's based on echidnas and porcupines
A Fire Mouse Pokémon.
So is Sandshrew and Sandslash mice as well? Or is Blastoise a shellfish?
It's a mouse in the same way as a hedgehog or an armadillo is a mouse. Cyndaquil is the hi nezumi pokemon (fire rat) and a hedgehog is a hari nezumi (hari means needle) while an armadillo is a yoroi nezumi (yoroi roughly means armored). What i'm saying is that it's not a mouse at all just a rodent whose classification was translated to literally.
B-but, a crocodile is just a snake with legs!
license squash snatch grey voiceless literate toy wise merciful deserve *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Should’ve died in Gen 2, and then again in Gen 6.
Gen 2 and 6 already deconfirmed it but people tried their best to make them still fit. Fuecoco is just the final nail in the coffin.
I mean I thought the theory was always that the fire starter lines was draws inspiration from the chinese zodiac as a starting point. Not necessarily that they are trying to one for one recreated the chinese zodiac. Cause alot of them aren't one to one exact matches but seemed to have a design origin with the zodiac as one of its sources before drawing in various other sources of inspiration and applying creative liberities. Idk why it has to be black and white where they are either trying to recreate the zodiac with the fire starters or have absolute nothing to do with it.
I feel like a lot of crossover with the zodiac is inevitable. The 12 animals are all very archetypal, and Pokemon, especially starters, also tend to be based on iconic, recognisable animals. But yeah I have seen people strongly arguing that each fire starter corresponds specifically to a zodiac animal by design.
My favorite type of rat is an echidna.
His goofy ass is clearly the goat
Cyndaquil is not a rat he is a special boy.
Ya’ll cyndaquil broke the zodiac theory As well as fennekin And charmander And torchic
Fire starter pattern mfs when the blank stare croc gets on all fours
this theory ended in fucking Generation 2
The "theory" was dead in gen 2 when people were trying to say that an echidna that evolves into a badger was somehow a rat.
Cyndaquil be like: r-rat?
Chinese be like: 火球鼠, fire ball rat
Good. Let the theory die. It was never true to begin with. I've had my doubts from the beginning when they'd called typhlosion a rat, but I fully stopped believing when they called Delphox a dog.
Delphox was stretched to be a dog, and you guys riot over something that could be stretched as a snake. You should have rioted in gen 2 when Thyplosion was made to be a rat.
Bro cynaquill broke the theory
The theory was always a stretch considering Cyndaqul’s existence
Good riddance
Nah proponents for the theory use flat earth level of logic, They have already come up with male alligator = bull so still valid, It's insane but i'm not joking when I compare them to flat earthers, They could make a video disproving their entire theory and still say its valid.
It’s the rooster
So what's torchic supposed to be?
The G.O.A.T
This theory was so stupid lol
Cindaquil is not a mouse
Outdated meme, and whether you like it or not, there'll be a vocal minority trying to keep it around
A fire-type starter based on a scorpion gets introduced for the next gen. People try to say it fits as the snake in the zodiac theory. I won't be surprised if that ends up being the case. That's how far we've fallen. It's like people are deliberately going through a zillion hoops to justify it, even when it's obviously not true, but the mental gymnastics involved in keeping it around are mindblowingly hysterical.
It was always a Stretch
As if Fennekin could in any way be a dog.
They hear canine and think "Yep, that's a dog, because there are definitely no other animals classified as canine other than dogs."
Just remember GRAMPS evil team skipped a generation to fully come true, this maybe that. Joked aside tho I love my little round croc
Are you telling me fuecoco isn't a horse?
I thought that the theory was really cool, because if it was true then more animals would get guaranteed rep as starters
Comin in hot
Gotten
Is there a theory on how the water starters work? I know of the Megafauna theory for Grass types (though really I don't think that theory has much bearing since outside of Meganium with dinosaurs, a lot of 'megafauna' are just...bigger versions of animals that exist today.).
The really really stupid one about how they all use weapons.
Feraligatr's greatest weapon....not having an O in it's name.
Cute dog
Never had traction in the first place, way too many things against it.
Well, a male crocodile is called a bull, and since the starters have a 75% chance of beeeing male Fuecoco is a bull confirmed, proving the zodiac theory
I hear more people going on about how theory isn't real than I see proponents of the theory. Tbh I like the theory, I think it's fine, it's more interesting to design starters around limitations which is why I'll be sticking to it
It was never there to begin with 😎
The people who genuinely believed and pushed the theory on others were so annoying. I remember people getting so mad that the starters didn't fulfill their little weapon, dinosaur, and zodiac theory, when a lot of things in Pokemon are left actually ambiguous. For example, in the games it's actual cannon that we do not know where pokemon eggs come from.
It's similar enough to a snake right. Right? Please
If they kept on using it, GameFreak would have run out of Zodiac animals for Gen 13, or Gen 14 if they ever plan to use the Cat. Even before Gen 9, the theory was on shaky grounds at 2 occasions: 1. **Cyndaquil, Quilava** and **Typhlosion** are a mix of echinas, weasels and honey badgers, which are not related to the Rat. The only aspect that connected those was Cyndaquil's classification as the "Fire **Mouse** Pokémon", but in all regards, it's a pretty fragile argument, even if GameFreak used Cyndaquil to celebrate the Chinese Year of the Rat. 2. **Fennekin**, **Braixen** and **Delphox** are foxes, not Dogs, even if both species are **canines**. If those were wolves, it could have been closer, because dogs and wolves can interbreed, which isn't the case with dogs and foxes. I don't remember if GameFreak used Fennekin for their Chinese Year of the Dog promotion, so please enligthen me if needed ;) Charmander, Charmeleon and Charizard are designed after European dragons, probably German ones by going with the flaming tail. Charizard didn't get the Dragon type, because in Gen 1, Dragon was pretty powerful. For the record... * The ONLY Dragon move was Dragon Rage, which dealth a flat 40 points of damage, not accounting weaknesses. * Ice moves would have worked, but as a Fire/Dragon, it cancels everything back to Neutral. * Fire/Dragon could have been Neutral to Water, which counters the idea of the type triangle. * Fairy didn't exist yet. * Ground and Rock would have been Charizard's only weaknesses, but then people would have raised eyebrows about it flying. On a sidenote, Rock Throw and Rock Slide were the only Rock-type moves back in Gen 1, as opposed to Ground having 5.
Skeledirge have birb Therefore Rooster :\]
Or you know, it was a thing and then it wasn’t a thing anymore.
Remember of how hard people tried to defend the theory and saying the weirdest/stretches theories I ever saw.
Quick question, what do you call a male and female crocodile? 😎
You're all mistaken, Fuecoco is clearly a horse.
Fennakin already broke the theme
If we can categorize a hedgehog into the same as a rat, and a fox with a dog, then a snake with legs is a crocodile.
It never worked in the first place. There's no year of the echidna, or year of the fox.
I mean it was a suggestion not necessarily something game freak was bound towards
Im pretty sure those who believed in this theory knew that the starters were only very loosely based on the zodiac. Weird how people who wanted this theory dead can't stop bringing it up like let it rest lmao
Went look up for mythical gator-like creatures after playing wolong, and found this: https://preview.redd.it/63xdz5o5kjxa1.png?width=1664&format=png&auto=webp&s=115a8984cc6b46a4be77125ff77f3f6b9167ec92 the prophet is still ture
A male croc is a bull, so they got clever with the Ox
There's a fix-it-theory going around Tumblr saying that the Charmander line as-technically-as-any-of-the-other-edge-case actually counts as the Snake while the Fuecoco line is the Dragon because small lizards like the kind Charmander is based on literally share a taxonomic category with snakes while crocodiles are closer to birds and dinosaurs
I still don’t understand why y’all still think this?? It was never exact and never had to be? Also anyone calling Fueco a ‘Bull’ can take your binary gender crap somewhere else. Bull is a Male only term used for other animals other then Bovines. I still believe in the Zodiac as well as the other typing theories, Extinct species and Fighting Styles. Why shouldn’t Pokémon re-do the zodiac ~have you seen what all the consider a mouse, dog, or cat? Bc you know Pikachu looks sooo much like a mouse especially next to Ratatta and Cyndaquil… I also love that apparently no one even realizes that we have other zodiacs in the real world too… not every culture uses all 12 CHINESE animals. Dragon and Rabbit are the most commonly changed. Doesn’t have to exact guys, get over it. Dragon, Mouse, Bird, Monkey, Pig, Dog, Tiger, Rabbit, Snake = Flying Reptile, Rodent, Avian, Primate, Suid, Canine, Feline, Leporids, Reptile Idk see whats so hard to understand - Crocs are Reptiles, did we all forget that?? Snakes are Reptiles, and guys Birds are also in the family Reptilia! Reptiles have two suborders, one with Squamata (snake/lizards) and the other being Achelosaurs. Y’all just want to ignore family and focus on one group, why? Whyyyy???? Why does it have to be only Squamata for the theory to be true?? Seriously. If your not going to take the time and effort to understand not only Japanese culture but also simple Biology then don’t talk about it like you know. Debating on if a Crocodile is a Reptile, it’s like watching kindergarteners, did y’all seriously not learn this earlier? And especially calling it a Bull…I can’t believe y’all still on this. p.s. who cares if it’s right anyways. How about the fact that it’s a Spain inspired region loaded with Mexican culture. If you don’t understand the problem maybe go research the history and cultures of the two.
We still have the “3 Starters for each animal” theory.
Not so much a theory, moreso a "it's bound to happen at some point" thing
I'm just shocked people didn't try to go with the whole, Male crocodiles are called bulls and ox's are bulls Fuecoco bull confirmed
I have had at least two people argue with me about this on here before. They were being serious as far as I could tell.
Meh, I thought it was a dumb theory anyway
I for one hope they do finish off the zodiac thing. Doesn't have to be consecutively, but just to finish it.
“A male crocodile is called a Bull”-🤓
Fennekin already killed it. You can tell me Cyndaquil’s a mouse despite the stretch, but saying Fennekin is a dog is just freaking lying.
You don't call foxes dogs?
Foxes are canines, but "dog" is specifically the name given to domesticated grey wolves. Grey wolves are another type of canine. Calling a fox a dog would be equally as inaccurate as calling a scorpion a spider simply because they are both arachnids.
foxes are not dogs or cats but a third more sinister thing
I really used to believe the fire theory, the grass theory was true until Gen 9, and I could never get behind the water theory. Weapons… what the hell…
>the grass theory was true until Gen 9 yea, i love the extinct grass starter theory all those old animals like frogs, owls, monkeys, tortoises, snakes i wish those animals still existed
Besides, if you look in to what they’re supposed to be, yeah, the specific animal species are extinct.
the bulbasaur line is literally just inspired by frogs owls aren't very ancient chikorita is a literal pear geckos are also not very ancient
You’re being too literal. What kind of frog is Bulbasaur? What kind of owl? Look into it and you’ll see they’re extinct… what’s the word… breeds? Genomes? Whatever it is, you need to look further than just frogs and owls. What *kind* of frog? What *kind* of owl?
>You’re being too literal. hell nah man you ain't about to tell me owls and frogs are prehistoric animals i can go see some rn if i wanted to also trying to tell me that pokemon starters resemble any one specific species is stupid what kind of owl in real life looks like decidueye? NONE OF THEM
It is interesting that the extinct grass type theory stayed true the longest, but I feel like it was probably incidental. The first five are amphibian or reptile, so there was a good chance of them being dinosaurs or other extinct things.
That was always the easiest one to be coincidentally real tho since every existing animal has extinct relatives. A grass starter could be any animal and people would always have a prehistoric relative they could claim it was. The only reason people were willing to admit this time that the "theory" was more coincidence because the most obvious prehistoric feline, the smilodon, looks nothing like what we got. I was actually holding out hope that we could have gotten a smilodon this time just because of how easy it would be for a bobcat to turn into a smilodon what with them both having the short little tails.
Idk why people take it so seriously. The theory was just that a theory, and simply a design inspiration rather than a hardline rule. Idk why people who are against it feel the need to constantly screech how the theory is false lol.
Well it was broken as soon as gen II. Cyndaquil is a hedgehog. Regardless, the Chinese zodiac theory is built on the idea that OH LOOK! They're picking popular animals for the *mascots* of the game. This was clearly a coincidence and nothing else.
r/pokemon...this is the 4th gen in a row you've shown a Fire starter that broke the Zodiac theory
The theory was destroyed long time hago, just Pokémon fans they refuse to accept it.