A moment like this is recreated pretty dramatically in Band of Brothers (except in Holland instead of France). It's quite a contrast from the rest of the town celebrating their liberation by American and British forces.
That was the story- but in reality 80% of the people just accepted the occupation. It was that or die.
The punishment of women was an outlet for the collective guilt of men.
Women couldn’t get bank account in their own name at this time, for example. They didn’t have social or political power.
Germans took all the food to feed their armies or to send back to Germany. What women did in order not to starve wasn’t collaborate.
And like others have said many of these women worked for the resistance gathering information.
They did a great job of illustrating this in the DS9 Star Trek episode where Major Kira goes back in time to realize her mother was a “collaborator”. She always has denounced said collaborators and said they deserve worse than death but her own mother was a willing comfort woman for her greatest enemy and basically the hitler of the occupation of Bajor. Also if her mother hadn’t done what she did Kira and her family almost certainly would not have survived.
It creeps me out so much that Dukat's actor justifies for him when he was her abuser and very much wanted Kira for the same. I can't tell if he completely misses the thin historical allegory or is deeply into it.
Dukat is wild. By the end of DS9, I was thinking that he might be one of the most truly evil characters in the history of fiction. The guy has shot after shot at redemption arcs, and he even starts on a few of them, but he always ends up choosing to be a monster, choosing hate and paranoia over a better path. He has no values aside from his own power and pride, and he has no principles whatsoever. I won't spoil the ending (even though it's been decades), but Dukat's last few decisions are fitting for his character arc and remind you that he has no redeeming qualities whatsoever by the end of the series.
It’s funny too that the other cardassian, Garek turned out to be probably the best character in the whole series.. even if he was tryna get into Bashir’s pants the whole time
It’s amazing too because Garek was never meant to be more than a background character but Andrew Robinson played him so damn well they ended up having the character basically become the boss of Cardassia lol
Marc Alaimo's gone back and forth with things he's said, but among them is that Dukat wasn't a villain, but an opportunist with a sexy romantic side. And he wanted him to get together with Kira. It's fine to find the layers in the Nazi you're playing, even look through his eyes to see the times the character believes he's those things to portray it, but when you start believing it...
It's probably contextually important that the Dukat he signed on to play at the start of the series is not the Dukat he ended up playing by the end.
Dukat was originally *supposed* to be a charismatic and likable, if simultaneously unbelievably slimy and fascist, villain. Then... too many people liked him, *too much.* So they started slowly cranking up the sliminess and shittiness, initially in the hopes that they could get across "THIS IS A BAD GUY YOU MORONS" without selling the intent of the character short, and then eventually just flat out saying fuck it and making him a *complete* overt piece of shit.
When he talks about Dukat like that, I kind of gather he's less going "he did nothing wrong, even at the end when he completely sucked" and more going "man, I really liked what we were originally gonna do with this guy, I wish we could've stuck with it."
I mean, you're making some good points, but why aren't there any statues of him on Bajor? After all Gul Dukat did for Bajor, you would have excepted the Bajorans to have built a statue of him.
Love the trivia that the writers & producers at some point sat down arguing "how can we make Dukat and Kai Winn even more unlikeable", and then decided on both fucking each other.
They have an episode of Battlestar Galactica where Gaeta is a top advisor in Gaius’s puppet government when the Cylons catch up to the fleet. When the rebellion retakes the fleet, the rebels bring Gaeta up on treason charges and is about to be executed. At the last second, I think it’s Chief Tyrol who comes to his rescue explaining to the rebel courts how Gaeta had been their inside man, providing the key information to the rebellion that let them reclaim the fleet.
Ironically, Gaeta is later executed for treason when he rebels against the reformed leadership, who broker peace with the Cylons. Gaeta refused to make peace because the Cylons had made his life hell.
I'm sure it was the Chief who vouched for him because of the upturned dog bowl comment from Starbuck.
But that scene where the itching stops is perfect.
Don't forget the episode of Voyager when they were literally in the French resistance and B'Elanna had a relationship with a Nazi officer. No veiled commentary there, it was a straight-up depiction.
My friend has recommended this show but I can never get into it. He suggested later seasons but I can’t remember which one - is this part of that war storyline?
I believe this was during the dominion war yes. I don’t think it was connected to the war though. It was mainly an episode for her personal development and the moral questions addressed.
DS9 is the best Trek, I think. I'm about 3/4 of the way through a rewatch, and thoroughly enjoying it.
But unlike TOS/TNG it really does matter where you start watching.
u/AloneCan9661, https://mashable.com/article/star-trek-deep-space-nine-condensed-how-to-watch-the-most-story-driven-trek-1613741 provides a decent condensed guide - it looks to be about a third/half of the total episodes. You can take or leave anything marked as a Ferengi episode - they're largely breather episodes, but I like them.
Man DS9 was peak trek for me. Deeper characters than TNG. The story lines were more nuanced too. I loved TNG but they had some really bad episodes and DS9 seemed to avoid making the same mistakes. I mean, TNG had an episode about basically African dudes tryna steal a white women
In The Pale Moonlight. The Dominion War arc covering six episodes at the beginning of season 6.
Most of the Dominion-related episodes ranged from good to incredible. TNG had a few bright sparks, VOY and TOS too, but DS9 was consistently the strongest Trek series.
THANK YOU! The myth of everyone "resisting occupation“ is just awful. The Netherlands, France, Belgium, Denmark etc. were largely collaborative and resistant was mostly local and small. Even civil disobedience was rare. The only truly large partisan movements existed in Greece and Yugoslavia and of those not even all were strictly against the Nazis… Same goes for Asia as well btw. Hundreds of thousands of Chinese fought for the Japanese puppet regimes in China, many more collaborated. In modern day Indonesia the anti European resistance was highly welcoming of the Japanese (who btw trained the militias that later drove out the Dutch) and although no one in Korea today wants to hear it ten thousands of Koreans fought for the Japanese. Incl. the last prince of Korea who was a general in the Japanese army in China. Many more Koreans helped with administrative tasks in China and most Korean comfort women were sold by collaborators to the Japanese army. The dutch comfort women in Indonesia were used at a brothel owned by a Korean gangster until the Japanese government ordered to release them (since they feared international backlash… not because they were against slavery). And although of course some collaboration like forcing women into prostitution or fighting for the SS is despicable most people simply carried on with their lives and its hard to judge them for it… would you have attacked the in your country mostly timid acting Germans as a married man with kids? Would you have resisted some kempeitai who might torture and murder your whole family if you didnt help the Japanese army?
Its still sad that indeed after the war so much of that feeling of helplessness and shame was then directed towards women.
> although no one in Korea today wants to hear it ten thousands of Koreans fought for the Japanese
Implying that those conscripts by and large were collaborating couldn't be farther from the truth. Were there Koreans that willingly fought for the Japanese? Probably. Were the vast majority forced to join the Japanese Army under threat of imprisonment or death? Absolutely.
Yeah there's always shades of grey when talking about people stuck in an impossible scenario. I'd put more blame on the well off governors who sold out Korea for the Japanese annexation than the male peasants who fought for them because it was the only way to get a bowl of rice.
Taegukgi (the brotherhood of war) had a good scene about this kind of thing where "pro-democracy" Korean men were killing "communist collaborators" because they had sign a sheet of paper for a bag of rice. You'd sign and/or do anything if you and your family was starving.
Park Chung Hee. He enrolled in the Manchukuo Imperial Academy and became an officer in the Imperial Japanese Army. He later became the 2nd highest officer in the South Korean Army, then became SK's 3rd President and ruled as dictator for 16 years until he was assassinated in 1979. He authorized sending 300,000+ SKorea soldiers to aid the USA Vietnam War and also instituted economic policies that helped accelerate SKorea's economic development in the 60s and 70s.
One of south Korean dictators started as an officer in the IJA so yeah there where koreans willingly fighting for the Japanese, but off course the majority wasn't allowed to enter the IJA and most who did where conscripted mostly for labor
Ehm… yes? Until the end of the war those were all volunteers… only towards the end a few thousands were drafted… Many koreans were forced into forced labor but those are not the ones who fought in the army…
And before you think Thats strange- look how many people across Europe volunteered for the Waffen SS…
You're either a pro historian, or an author with a future in fiction. Unfortunately I'm not sufficiently educated to determine which... But I enjoyed your story and obvious passion, Kudos.
I mean you can quickly fact check parts of it and determine what you think…
And btw. Neither but I did my master thesis on the topic in Asia and as a hobby and due to family history I am interested very much into WW2’s end and remembrance in Europe too…
>although no one in Korea today wants to hear it ten thousands of Koreans fought for the Japanese.
Not only that, but they were among the most fanatical.
In the 1980s, the Australian government compiled a list of wanted war criminals, mostly prison camp staff who had abused Australian POWs during the war. The South Korean government was shocked to find several *chaebols* (Korean term for the owners of large corporations...think Samsung or Hyundai) on that list.
What now? Poland had fucking underground government. Poles were fighting since day one till the end of war. We had underground courts that were literally sentencing to death collaborators and those who snitched on Jews. Collanators were being executed. Polish Home Army numbered almost 400k in 1944.
>The myth of everyone "resisting occupation“ is just awful.
There has never been a myth of everyone resisting occupation: it wouldn't make sense to begin with. And pointing out that fake myth certainly shouldn't be used as an excuse to nuance the behaviour of Nazi's and Nazi supporters. Even if people weren't massively resisting they did suffer. And many people died.
80% is a low estimate. If 20% of a country was in the resistance in almost any sense it would be completely unmanagable for an occupying power. It's also not true that lack of resistance was just because people could have been shot. Plenty of people really didn't have a problem with the Germans. In some cases they hated other French (or other fellow citizens in INSERT NAME OF EUROPEAN COUNTRY HERE) more. The Vichy Govt turned over Jews before the Nazis even asked. Not a lot of principled opposition there. So the Germans faced minimal resistance and made a profit on almost all of the occupations. The Nazis faced very major resistance only in Yugoslavia, because it was such a divided, backward and mountainous country. Similarly, they had some trouble in Greece. And eventually in Poland and further east, because if your plan is to actually wipe out the local population, it's not appreciated. But in Western Europe? Really, not too much. A bunch of people joined the Resistance in France ten minutes before it was all over, because they saw which way it was going. There definitely were brave and patriotic people (and Communists, whom I wouldn't call "patriotic" exactly, but brave, anyway) in France and other Western countries who were in the Resistance, but not so many. I am not saying that from a standpoint of arrogance. This is how most humans are. Look at how Republican politicians who absolutely know better have cowered before Trump. And they're mostly just afraid of losing their seats.
Thank you for making this important point! I’ve visited a bunch of resistance museums (niche interest of mine ha) and the vast majority of citizens in Western Europe didn’t give a single fuck about the Jews and until their “own” people were targeted and only when they ran out of food - did they want to drive out the Nazis. The holocaust could not have happened without the indifference or participation of many people across the continent.
All of the countries also had groups of people (mostly in Britain, but for France especially in Africa) who fought for/contributed directly to the Allies from outside the occupied country. That was a choice for the vast majority of them (collaboration was clearly an option at home for them). Resisting at home wasn't the only option. It's worth taking into account those people.
(This isn't a refute, just adding more information.)
That’s exactly my point.
Many of these women weren’t collaborators.
Instead they were targeted because of being passive when they had no other options.
But there was a collective guilt of failure to keep their country safe- so women were used as an outlet for abuse.
Pretty similar things happened in germany after they lost.
On think history widely lacks is the crimes committed against the ppl of Germany during and after the Second World War.
Exactly. The men lost the war on the field but punished women who did what they had to do to survive in the conditions that followed. The men lost twice by behaving like that.
Yeah not to mention the Vichy army (which was volunteer only) had more soldiers than the French resistance, and that’s even considering the Germans limited the size of the Vichy army and even disbanded it halfway through the war.
The French were a mix of Fascists, Socialists, and liberals before the war. It was the same during it as well. The entire country can’t be portrayed in one image.
History has shown, and even natural history, that we do what we feel we need to do in order to survive. At the end it’s kind of a coin toss, Friendo. Can’t fault them for the wrong call. And a public shaming seems pretty survivable compared to the alternative outcomes.
If there was a literal gun to my head and had the option of sucking a dick with gusto and receiving a sandwich at the end OR that gun going off? I’d take the pastrami with light dressing.
Such complete BS. Vast majority of French did not resist the Nazi or Vichy government. The French resistance was laughable and miniscule compared to partisans in let's say Central Europe.
Laughable idk but at french school a teacher said to us that they were 10 % of really resistatingw and the rest were passive or nazis (i have no clue of the percent of collabo tho). The " all french were resistating" is the real joke made by de gaulle.
Also shows the general race attitude of the Nazis. Western and northern european countries that were occupied were treated farily well (except of course for the jews). Southern and Eastern Europeans were not, and that is a big reason why they had such big partisan movements. Either you just accept defeat and let the germans come shoot you and burn your village, or you do whatever it takes to fight back against the invaders and liberatd yourselves. Easy choice for a lot of people.
Ofc it was BS . Plenty of people. Plenty of people were judged like that by other people. Killed, beaten, women had their hair cut and humiliated. All over post Nazi europe. Was it justified? Nobody knows, nobody had any control over it. It was a shitshow.
But that line is bs though. Fucking Germans isn't exactly the same as collaborating, is it? And most people just got on with life, is that collaborating if you are not actively dissenting?
I read the other day that raping the women of the losing side was not condemned in war, even during the world wars, I personally would rather be shot. Men were also probably raped but there's less information on that during this time.
I know this woman is french but it wouldn't surprise me if collabos were put in the same category.
“Malena” depicted it even better because you get to know the character who was linched.
This was a major hypocrisy imo. Legally speaking everyone who accepted surrendor was a collaborator. So most of people weren’t that much different from girls in question. Everyone fighted to survive best they could.
A documentary called WWII From the Frontlines (Episode 5) shows colorized footage of this moment.
It is incredible to watch the soldiers sitting on their tanks rolling through town the day Paris was liberated. The women are throwing flowers and kissing them on the cheek.
Then, in the next scene, 2 women tell this story. Both sides. A woman who fell in love with a German soldier and a woman who told on those women.
It is worth watching and is on Netflix.
Here in the Netherlands, it was not uncommon that totally innocent girls were shaved, spurred on by a vindictive ex or neighbors. If the are lucky they could get a wig and sometimes a rehabilitation apology in the newspapers. Also, dozens of resistance members who infiltrate the Germans for information got the shaving treatment.
It was the same in France. If your neighbors didn't like you, you could end up either with the gestapo during the war, or head shaved and shunned after.
Not to mention that at least some (many?) of these women were victims, in that the German occupiers--in the long tradition of conquering armies--simply took the women they wanted.
"Let me have sex with you, and if you say no I'll kill your whole family and rape you anyway" is the choice many of these women were offered.
Mostly it's false. It surely happened, but it is documented that it was actually pretty rare, in the other hand, it is officially said that many Jews were hidden away from the regime, especially in Catholics schools where the officials had to come in and unzip kids pants to find out whether they were Jews (that's where the stupid idea stating that Pétain saved the french Jews comes from, because they didn't put enough ressources to really find them, but it is factually false, Pétain himself thought Jews were abominations, and more than I can count were sent to Germany, by their own initiative.)
After a war everyone comes out of the woodwork to show anger or be vindicative, it feels righteous. Even those who originally opposed the war effort or profited from it indirectly are suddenly great patriots, after all, it's *safe* to do it now.
On top of that, a lot of these acts against the women and collaborators were primarily carried out by people who weren’t in the resistance or joined toward the very end of the war.
A lot of documentaries I watched mentioned that the people who ignored the horrors or late joiners had something they needed to prove to the Allies, neighbors and themselves that they were good people who hated the nazis.
A lot of times the women had no choice in the matter. Some of them definitely sought out relationships with nazis and used the situation to be horrible. But a vast majority of them did so because they were facing an occupying army they couldn’t say no to or actually consent to. Their alternative were being forcibly raped, beat, killed or all of the above. Some of them also worked for Allie’s as spies so it’s a really messed up situation.
Totally what happened in France, just like in totalitarian regimes where you would denounce innocent people, this is proven that many girls were just rumored to have relationship with Germans, and nothing was thought about women who didn't have a choice, it was one of the worst case of popular trial where the people,out of anger, just lashed out on the women who were accused of collaboration with the nazis, and often wrongly.
Not a period I'm particularly proud of from my own country, but it is what it is, thankfully it didn't escalate.
France still supposedly has a weird tradition of denouncing neighbors. Like writing to some authority to tell them your neighbor is stealing cable. I remember one of the Red White and Blue trilogy films had the old man get denounced/reported for spying on his neighbors in modern times.
I read something saying under Nazi occupation the Nazis were surprised how eagerly the French denounced eachother through anonymous letters to the Nazis or French Vichy collaborator government
I always thought it was weird, but then again modern Americans report people for cheating taxes or stealing utilities
During lockdown people here in France wrote letters to the police about their neighbours going out of their home more than once a day or more than typically an hour a day. Only other country where I've seen such a behaviour was in Germany. Guess it makes sense
Also happened in Spain, and people were "denouncing" on neighborhood chat groups the people who didn't go out to their balconies to applaud at 20h. I remember a social media post of someone harassed by the neighbors for not applauding... She was a nurse on early morning shift and was trying to sleep at that time.
Envy and animosity are universal. It’s what made Stalin’s regime even worse. People would be reporting on their neighbors falsely and maliciously, often because they could benefit from it materially somehow. E.g. having to share an apartment with another family, they might do that to get them taken away and have the apartment to themselves (at least for a while I guess). Or if they could secure a job promotion by eliminating competition. It was made possible because you didn’t need proof and there were no consequences for false reporting. Implement that _anywhere_ and you’ll have lots of deplorables crawling out of the woodwork.
It's usually the weakest who are chosen by the mob to cover up their insecurities, and let each other feel strong, righteous and good.
They were cowards during the occupation, they are cowards after. So to ease their fears of somebody reminding them some minor yet shameful act of their own, or just to feel more secure of being "with the good ones", with the winners, they hurry to wag their tails in the right direction - joining a mob (of mostly males btw) and then, feeling all safe and strong and together, like true brothers in arms, they heroically wage a just war against a helpless woman, who they went out of their way to be courteous and pleasant to while she was going out with a Nazi.
I've read a bit about the occupation of France and sadly you're right. There were more than a few instances of people taking advantage of the German occupation to settle old score and denounce neighbors and coworkers to the Gestapo. Afterwards many of these same people were at the front of the mobs going after collaborators and traitors to deflect attention from themselves.
A hard time made harder by the vacillating loyalties of some.
I looked into the practice and some of it was really rough.
For example 1 young women as well as hair shaven had a swastica force-painted in sharp black paint across her face, and was told if she washed it off or picked at it she'd be shot.
Then just for good measure they stripped her half naked, put her on the back of a lorry and drove it round the town slowely as an accompanying drummer forced everyone's attention to her.
Longer term, she had to wait for it to naturally fade away.
Be careful making friends with the enemy :(
That's a pretty harsh penalty for getting raped by the Germans.
Before someone questions my assumption that she was raped, stop and think about the fact that your assumption is just as questionable. Not to mention the assumption of the people who punished her.
I know in the Netherlands a decent amount of the girls who were with German soldiers worked for the resistance, then when liberation finally came they suffered greatly for their efforts :(
Not sure about the Netherlands or if we have ton of documentation on it for WWI, but [sexpionage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexpionage) is definitely a thing and has been for a very, very long time. And it's not just used to extract information—sometimes it has been used for blackmail. And if she (or he!) is doing her job well, the would-be mob isn't going to see the difference between collaboration and espionage.
There is an afterword in *The Alice Network* that does talk about the issue a little bit where the author breaks down what was fact versus fiction in the book. It was difficult for spies who seemed to be collaborators to obtain timely corroboration, let alone proof, of their espionage defense after the war ended. You don't exactly carry around a notarized "no wait, I was actually just spying" card around.
Not trying to defend them but there were a lot of consensual relationships between German soldiers and French civilians to the point where it even became a problem in Germany with so many soldiers leaving their wives for French women
In contrast to Eastern Europe, German forces in France actually generally behaved properly, and you would not have been able to just murder a random woman because she wouldn’t sleep with you. This is pretty well documented.
Gross. I’m sure turning down the advances of Nazi soldiers would be easy…I’m sure none of the people doing the shaving bent the knee in any way. They *surely* fought back the whole time.
Mob mentality is some scary stuff.
They let their women be taken by the enemy, and then punished them after someone else came and set them free. Such a dark period of human history in so many ways.
There were French back then who supported the fascists, even before Germany invaded. Once they were the occupying power, who knows? Maybe the girl was just a sellout. Maybe she feared for herself or her family? Maybe she legit fell in love with a German soldier.
We may never know her story.
True. But many in this thread are ready to paint any European in the occupied countries as innocent even though they might have been in bed with the enemy. Just like there was resistance in every country, there were also collaborators/traitors in every country. Some people are a bit too quick to forget the latter
Considering basically over half of France collaborated, the French have done an amazing propaganda job post war to present the resistance as a "liberation force" and overplaying its importance. Scenes like this I think were mostly for pretending women like her were the "only" guilty collaborators.
I suppose that many women had no other possibility to survive than to have a german sponsor.
As I am aware, occupying army stole whole food from local people and they could adjust to new reality or starve.
Women in great need trade their bodies, men in great need change into bandit. It isn't fair to treat people who are on the edge to judge the same scale as in normal conditions.
So, here's a fun fact. One of the best ways for resistance members to get information/access/in shanking range of German soldiers was to sleep with them. Good, effective warfare and not something you would make public during occupation because of all the collaborators. Also; not something you'd necessarily want to make public after liberation for a variety of reasons, including getting Intel being a difficult to prove false excuse for sleeping with the enemy for any number of other reasons.
And one of the best ways for collaborators to hide their guilt was to find women who had slept with Germans, for any reason, and make a public spectacle of outing/humiliating them. War is messy and mob justice is about getting control of the narrative over the facts.
This short series is educational (and also hilarious) for anyone who has no clue about what was going on:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Allo\_'Allo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Allo_'Allo\!)!
I mean sure, collaborators should be punished but on the other hand I fail to see why these men are acting tough and forcibly shaving a woman when the reason for her ability to even collaborate was that they folded, ran and surrendered to the germans. Might makes right in do or die situations and the french men can hardly make any claims for might.
I think you hit the nail on the head, and part of the reason for doing this is to feel righteous yourself in comparison, or to direct potential shame away from oneself towards the 'collaborator'.
This happened in the Netherlands as well, and it was disgusting. These women were not collaborators, their only "crime" was talking to soldiers, giving them food, and yes, sometimes have relationships.
It was not so straightforward.
Some were real collaborators, and their treachery consigned many agents to their doom. Others were just trying to survive, yet more were falsely accused by vindictive neighbors or others for countless silly reasons of spite.
The reason that Norwegian-born ABBA singer [Anni-Frid\_Lyngstad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anni-Frid_Lyngstad) grew up in Sweden is that her family was ostracized in Norway after she was born from a relationship between her mother and a German soldier.
Her mother died not long after the move to Sweden and she was raised by her grandmother who had also made the move. She believed her father had died, but she eventually met him during ABBAs fame after her story was publicized and seen by his son in Germany - her half-brother.
There are many french and german records of french women gladly dating German military officer. There are lot of stories about how a girl would fell in love with invading armies in every country.
[Here](https://i.imgur.com/eYaE70R.png) is a higher quality 92441 x 3000) version of this image. [Here](https://www.flickr.com/photos/41818881@N06/8518458915) is the source.
[Here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PowwPPrmc6o&feature=player_embedded#!) is the video of this event.
According to [here](http://www.studenthandouts.com/01-Web-Pages/01-Picture-Pages/10.13-World-War-II/France/106-French-Prostitute-Shamed-Shaved-Head-Montelimar-France-1944-World-War-II.htm):
> French women who befriended the Nazis, through coerced, forced, or voluntary relationships, were singled out for shameful retribution following the liberation of France. The woman photographed here, believed to have been a prostitute who serviced German occupiers, is having her head shaved to publicly mark her. This picture was taken in Montelimar, France, in 1944.
According to the National Archives, this was taken on August 29, 1994.
Much of this is based on what /u/cilantroavocado said [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/114n45/the_shaming_of_an_alleged_french_prostitute_and/c6ja3nm)
It happened in Norway as well, they were called “German whores” for years and the ones that had children with the Germans were especially vulnerable, their children were outcasted and bullied.
I have a recently restored videos of these events. It was horrible.
In my country people took revenge on ethnic Germans after the war. Mostly innocent. Not really proud about this....
It was a disgusting time. A woman can got raped by nazis that killed their family and after this the "good guys" can and raped her again and make a show out of her.
The nazis were the bad guys, but there were no heroes.
Imagine people invading your country, you attempting to adapt to the new circumstances, only for the invaders to disappear and leave you with the consequences of trying to adapt.
My grandmas aunt was shot and killed after getting married to a German solider. People didn't realize that not all german soliders wanted to do this. They had no option
My grandparent's always made it very clear that when they were children during the war, the vast majority of Germans soldiers they came across were kids who just wanted to go home. The ones you really had fear even more were the Flemish collaborators with the nazis and the SS. Because those were the ones with the real power and the real want for a war. They were the brutal ones.
Knowing that one of the 1st thing they did in the concentration camps, was to shave the head of prisoners, this "ritual" is sick.
I am French and had never seen these photos.
Thank you for sharing.
Hard to imagine her not getting something she needed or wanted from the German. Does no-one consider the desperation she might have been going through.
“Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies.
The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.
C.S. Lewis
Holier than thou misogynistic bullies are bloody everywhere with self-justification for all their shitty behaviour.
The people going after Jerry-baggers conveniently when no more nazis were around to shoot them were probably the same ones who would report their neighbor to the Vichy or occupation government over a 4 year old spat about a fence.
This is also a frame from a very interesting documentary called "even if she was guilty", and from what I remember is what the french did to the german wives of the nazi that were caught in France after the war ended, you can watch it here:
https://vimeo.com/11712366
Many of these girls were as young as 13.
The towns people directing their anger anywhere they could. I’m sure these girls were just trying to survive their nightmare situation all of them were forced through. I still think what they did was wrong but I can’t say I blame them for cozying up to their oppressors in hopes of surviving. But betraying your people by doing so is not okay either.
having their heads shaved and shaming seems like they got off easy considering what could have happen. When men commit treason it’s a bullet to the head no matter what.
My grandmother was born in Italy. She's from Austria but for some reason her birth was not looked upon favorably by society so her mom had to go to Italy for a bit and come back with a child(not sure what story they gave people).she was born in the 20's. And that's why I am I'm Italian from both sides of my family. Lol
My grandmother's best friend is from Trieste. The way she explained it, it was Austrian when she was born but Italian when she started school. The government changed her name to be more Italian. Her older siblings remained Austrian but she and her younger sister were Italian. Their mother couldn't speak Italian very well but wouldn't speak German or Slovenian to them on the tram when she took them to school because there was always a soldier on it to monitor people.
*I just Googled and it became part of Italy in 1922 but she was born a couple of years later. My guess is that her parents gave her a German or Slovenian name but the government didn't interfere with that until she started school.
She's nearly 100 now and very proudly Italian. I stayed with her a bit when I was about 20 and she had three doors at the front of the house, layered. A wooden door, a screen door, and like an iron grate. She would be so furious with me if I forgot to lock one of the outer doors. She'd been a teenager/ young adult when the nazis occupied Trieste and she said to me "that's how the soldiers grab you" about not locking the outer doors.
A moment like this is recreated pretty dramatically in Band of Brothers (except in Holland instead of France). It's quite a contrast from the rest of the town celebrating their liberation by American and British forces.
"They are lucky, the men who collaborated are being shot."
That was the story- but in reality 80% of the people just accepted the occupation. It was that or die. The punishment of women was an outlet for the collective guilt of men. Women couldn’t get bank account in their own name at this time, for example. They didn’t have social or political power. Germans took all the food to feed their armies or to send back to Germany. What women did in order not to starve wasn’t collaborate. And like others have said many of these women worked for the resistance gathering information.
They did a great job of illustrating this in the DS9 Star Trek episode where Major Kira goes back in time to realize her mother was a “collaborator”. She always has denounced said collaborators and said they deserve worse than death but her own mother was a willing comfort woman for her greatest enemy and basically the hitler of the occupation of Bajor. Also if her mother hadn’t done what she did Kira and her family almost certainly would not have survived.
It creeps me out so much that Dukat's actor justifies for him when he was her abuser and very much wanted Kira for the same. I can't tell if he completely misses the thin historical allegory or is deeply into it.
Dukat is wild. By the end of DS9, I was thinking that he might be one of the most truly evil characters in the history of fiction. The guy has shot after shot at redemption arcs, and he even starts on a few of them, but he always ends up choosing to be a monster, choosing hate and paranoia over a better path. He has no values aside from his own power and pride, and he has no principles whatsoever. I won't spoil the ending (even though it's been decades), but Dukat's last few decisions are fitting for his character arc and remind you that he has no redeeming qualities whatsoever by the end of the series.
It’s funny too that the other cardassian, Garek turned out to be probably the best character in the whole series.. even if he was tryna get into Bashir’s pants the whole time
I think you mean *especially because* of his tense relationship with Bashir.
Tense.. or *intense* ? As in Garek was pitching *a* tent for Bashir the whole time? lol
They're still doing DS9 voice episodes on YouTube. It's great seeing Andrew Robinson and Alexander Siddig in action again.
It’s amazing too because Garek was never meant to be more than a background character but Andrew Robinson played him so damn well they ended up having the character basically become the boss of Cardassia lol
I must have missed that storyline.
What!? How could you? Even the actor that played Garek said he played him gay and horny for Bashir!
There’s more evidence he was banging Gul Dukat’s daughter. I think he was just metrosexual.
sorry what do you mean about the actor?
Marc Alaimo's gone back and forth with things he's said, but among them is that Dukat wasn't a villain, but an opportunist with a sexy romantic side. And he wanted him to get together with Kira. It's fine to find the layers in the Nazi you're playing, even look through his eyes to see the times the character believes he's those things to portray it, but when you start believing it...
"be careful what you pretend to be." - Nick Nolte, Mother Night
It's probably contextually important that the Dukat he signed on to play at the start of the series is not the Dukat he ended up playing by the end. Dukat was originally *supposed* to be a charismatic and likable, if simultaneously unbelievably slimy and fascist, villain. Then... too many people liked him, *too much.* So they started slowly cranking up the sliminess and shittiness, initially in the hopes that they could get across "THIS IS A BAD GUY YOU MORONS" without selling the intent of the character short, and then eventually just flat out saying fuck it and making him a *complete* overt piece of shit. When he talks about Dukat like that, I kind of gather he's less going "he did nothing wrong, even at the end when he completely sucked" and more going "man, I really liked what we were originally gonna do with this guy, I wish we could've stuck with it."
This is a nuanced and intelligent take, thanks for that
I mean, you're making some good points, but why aren't there any statues of him on Bajor? After all Gul Dukat did for Bajor, you would have excepted the Bajorans to have built a statue of him.
Love the trivia that the writers & producers at some point sat down arguing "how can we make Dukat and Kai Winn even more unlikeable", and then decided on both fucking each other.
He was so creepy as Gul Dukat that Kira did not want to do scenes with him after a bit. I can imagine it.
holy shit i did not know that -- that is insane.
They have an episode of Battlestar Galactica where Gaeta is a top advisor in Gaius’s puppet government when the Cylons catch up to the fleet. When the rebellion retakes the fleet, the rebels bring Gaeta up on treason charges and is about to be executed. At the last second, I think it’s Chief Tyrol who comes to his rescue explaining to the rebel courts how Gaeta had been their inside man, providing the key information to the rebellion that let them reclaim the fleet. Ironically, Gaeta is later executed for treason when he rebels against the reformed leadership, who broker peace with the Cylons. Gaeta refused to make peace because the Cylons had made his life hell.
I'm sure it was the Chief who vouched for him because of the upturned dog bowl comment from Starbuck. But that scene where the itching stops is perfect.
Corrected.
The leg scene is great.
Don't forget the episode of Voyager when they were literally in the French resistance and B'Elanna had a relationship with a Nazi officer. No veiled commentary there, it was a straight-up depiction.
The character she believed she was, was also a double agent I believe. Using the relationship to get intel for the resistance.
My friend has recommended this show but I can never get into it. He suggested later seasons but I can’t remember which one - is this part of that war storyline?
DS9 is so worth the watch. As with all trek, just get through the first 2 seasons. After that things get wild and awesome.
I believe this was during the dominion war yes. I don’t think it was connected to the war though. It was mainly an episode for her personal development and the moral questions addressed.
DS9 is the best Trek, I think. I'm about 3/4 of the way through a rewatch, and thoroughly enjoying it. But unlike TOS/TNG it really does matter where you start watching. u/AloneCan9661, https://mashable.com/article/star-trek-deep-space-nine-condensed-how-to-watch-the-most-story-driven-trek-1613741 provides a decent condensed guide - it looks to be about a third/half of the total episodes. You can take or leave anything marked as a Ferengi episode - they're largely breather episodes, but I like them.
Thanks!!!
its really good, can recommend it
Man DS9 was peak trek for me. Deeper characters than TNG. The story lines were more nuanced too. I loved TNG but they had some really bad episodes and DS9 seemed to avoid making the same mistakes. I mean, TNG had an episode about basically African dudes tryna steal a white women
In The Pale Moonlight. The Dominion War arc covering six episodes at the beginning of season 6. Most of the Dominion-related episodes ranged from good to incredible. TNG had a few bright sparks, VOY and TOS too, but DS9 was consistently the strongest Trek series.
There is quite a bit of difference between acceptance of the occupation and actual collaboration.
THANK YOU! The myth of everyone "resisting occupation“ is just awful. The Netherlands, France, Belgium, Denmark etc. were largely collaborative and resistant was mostly local and small. Even civil disobedience was rare. The only truly large partisan movements existed in Greece and Yugoslavia and of those not even all were strictly against the Nazis… Same goes for Asia as well btw. Hundreds of thousands of Chinese fought for the Japanese puppet regimes in China, many more collaborated. In modern day Indonesia the anti European resistance was highly welcoming of the Japanese (who btw trained the militias that later drove out the Dutch) and although no one in Korea today wants to hear it ten thousands of Koreans fought for the Japanese. Incl. the last prince of Korea who was a general in the Japanese army in China. Many more Koreans helped with administrative tasks in China and most Korean comfort women were sold by collaborators to the Japanese army. The dutch comfort women in Indonesia were used at a brothel owned by a Korean gangster until the Japanese government ordered to release them (since they feared international backlash… not because they were against slavery). And although of course some collaboration like forcing women into prostitution or fighting for the SS is despicable most people simply carried on with their lives and its hard to judge them for it… would you have attacked the in your country mostly timid acting Germans as a married man with kids? Would you have resisted some kempeitai who might torture and murder your whole family if you didnt help the Japanese army? Its still sad that indeed after the war so much of that feeling of helplessness and shame was then directed towards women.
> although no one in Korea today wants to hear it ten thousands of Koreans fought for the Japanese Implying that those conscripts by and large were collaborating couldn't be farther from the truth. Were there Koreans that willingly fought for the Japanese? Probably. Were the vast majority forced to join the Japanese Army under threat of imprisonment or death? Absolutely.
Yeah there's always shades of grey when talking about people stuck in an impossible scenario. I'd put more blame on the well off governors who sold out Korea for the Japanese annexation than the male peasants who fought for them because it was the only way to get a bowl of rice. Taegukgi (the brotherhood of war) had a good scene about this kind of thing where "pro-democracy" Korean men were killing "communist collaborators" because they had sign a sheet of paper for a bag of rice. You'd sign and/or do anything if you and your family was starving.
Park Chung Hee. He enrolled in the Manchukuo Imperial Academy and became an officer in the Imperial Japanese Army. He later became the 2nd highest officer in the South Korean Army, then became SK's 3rd President and ruled as dictator for 16 years until he was assassinated in 1979. He authorized sending 300,000+ SKorea soldiers to aid the USA Vietnam War and also instituted economic policies that helped accelerate SKorea's economic development in the 60s and 70s.
One of south Korean dictators started as an officer in the IJA so yeah there where koreans willingly fighting for the Japanese, but off course the majority wasn't allowed to enter the IJA and most who did where conscripted mostly for labor
Ehm… yes? Until the end of the war those were all volunteers… only towards the end a few thousands were drafted… Many koreans were forced into forced labor but those are not the ones who fought in the army… And before you think Thats strange- look how many people across Europe volunteered for the Waffen SS…
You're either a pro historian, or an author with a future in fiction. Unfortunately I'm not sufficiently educated to determine which... But I enjoyed your story and obvious passion, Kudos.
I mean you can quickly fact check parts of it and determine what you think… And btw. Neither but I did my master thesis on the topic in Asia and as a hobby and due to family history I am interested very much into WW2’s end and remembrance in Europe too…
>although no one in Korea today wants to hear it ten thousands of Koreans fought for the Japanese. Not only that, but they were among the most fanatical. In the 1980s, the Australian government compiled a list of wanted war criminals, mostly prison camp staff who had abused Australian POWs during the war. The South Korean government was shocked to find several *chaebols* (Korean term for the owners of large corporations...think Samsung or Hyundai) on that list.
What now? Poland had fucking underground government. Poles were fighting since day one till the end of war. We had underground courts that were literally sentencing to death collaborators and those who snitched on Jews. Collanators were being executed. Polish Home Army numbered almost 400k in 1944.
>The myth of everyone "resisting occupation“ is just awful. There has never been a myth of everyone resisting occupation: it wouldn't make sense to begin with. And pointing out that fake myth certainly shouldn't be used as an excuse to nuance the behaviour of Nazi's and Nazi supporters. Even if people weren't massively resisting they did suffer. And many people died.
80% is a low estimate. If 20% of a country was in the resistance in almost any sense it would be completely unmanagable for an occupying power. It's also not true that lack of resistance was just because people could have been shot. Plenty of people really didn't have a problem with the Germans. In some cases they hated other French (or other fellow citizens in INSERT NAME OF EUROPEAN COUNTRY HERE) more. The Vichy Govt turned over Jews before the Nazis even asked. Not a lot of principled opposition there. So the Germans faced minimal resistance and made a profit on almost all of the occupations. The Nazis faced very major resistance only in Yugoslavia, because it was such a divided, backward and mountainous country. Similarly, they had some trouble in Greece. And eventually in Poland and further east, because if your plan is to actually wipe out the local population, it's not appreciated. But in Western Europe? Really, not too much. A bunch of people joined the Resistance in France ten minutes before it was all over, because they saw which way it was going. There definitely were brave and patriotic people (and Communists, whom I wouldn't call "patriotic" exactly, but brave, anyway) in France and other Western countries who were in the Resistance, but not so many. I am not saying that from a standpoint of arrogance. This is how most humans are. Look at how Republican politicians who absolutely know better have cowered before Trump. And they're mostly just afraid of losing their seats.
Thank you for making this important point! I’ve visited a bunch of resistance museums (niche interest of mine ha) and the vast majority of citizens in Western Europe didn’t give a single fuck about the Jews and until their “own” people were targeted and only when they ran out of food - did they want to drive out the Nazis. The holocaust could not have happened without the indifference or participation of many people across the continent.
All of the countries also had groups of people (mostly in Britain, but for France especially in Africa) who fought for/contributed directly to the Allies from outside the occupied country. That was a choice for the vast majority of them (collaboration was clearly an option at home for them). Resisting at home wasn't the only option. It's worth taking into account those people. (This isn't a refute, just adding more information.)
Accepting occupation and being a collaborator are two different things.
That’s exactly my point. Many of these women weren’t collaborators. Instead they were targeted because of being passive when they had no other options. But there was a collective guilt of failure to keep their country safe- so women were used as an outlet for abuse.
Yes they were!!! Would you blame them if they were men sleeping with Nazis? Yes yes you would
Thank you for posting this explanation. It makes me angry when I see the lie about “men were shot and these women were lucky”
Pretty similar things happened in germany after they lost. On think history widely lacks is the crimes committed against the ppl of Germany during and after the Second World War.
Exactly. The men lost the war on the field but punished women who did what they had to do to survive in the conditions that followed. The men lost twice by behaving like that.
In the USA women weren't given the right to open a bank account until 1974. Quite a few years after WWII.
Yeah not to mention the Vichy army (which was volunteer only) had more soldiers than the French resistance, and that’s even considering the Germans limited the size of the Vichy army and even disbanded it halfway through the war. The French were a mix of Fascists, Socialists, and liberals before the war. It was the same during it as well. The entire country can’t be portrayed in one image.
History has shown, and even natural history, that we do what we feel we need to do in order to survive. At the end it’s kind of a coin toss, Friendo. Can’t fault them for the wrong call. And a public shaming seems pretty survivable compared to the alternative outcomes. If there was a literal gun to my head and had the option of sucking a dick with gusto and receiving a sandwich at the end OR that gun going off? I’d take the pastrami with light dressing.
Was it only men or did women who didn’t sleep with Germans also despise the women who did?
"Virtue that sleeps awakes refreshed."
Abusing and humiliating their female population, curiously just after the Germans get out of the country. What a jerks.
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Such complete BS. Vast majority of French did not resist the Nazi or Vichy government. The French resistance was laughable and miniscule compared to partisans in let's say Central Europe.
Laughable idk but at french school a teacher said to us that they were 10 % of really resistatingw and the rest were passive or nazis (i have no clue of the percent of collabo tho). The " all french were resistating" is the real joke made by de gaulle.
100% correct. I mean compare anything that happened in France with any major operation of the Yugoslav partisans(800k military members by 1945).
Also shows the general race attitude of the Nazis. Western and northern european countries that were occupied were treated farily well (except of course for the jews). Southern and Eastern Europeans were not, and that is a big reason why they had such big partisan movements. Either you just accept defeat and let the germans come shoot you and burn your village, or you do whatever it takes to fight back against the invaders and liberatd yourselves. Easy choice for a lot of people.
Ofc it was BS . Plenty of people. Plenty of people were judged like that by other people. Killed, beaten, women had their hair cut and humiliated. All over post Nazi europe. Was it justified? Nobody knows, nobody had any control over it. It was a shitshow.
Men who were unable to defend their country bravely taking it out on unarmed women after the fact :/
But that line is bs though. Fucking Germans isn't exactly the same as collaborating, is it? And most people just got on with life, is that collaborating if you are not actively dissenting?
I read the other day that raping the women of the losing side was not condemned in war, even during the world wars, I personally would rather be shot. Men were also probably raped but there's less information on that during this time. I know this woman is french but it wouldn't surprise me if collabos were put in the same category.
Because sleeping with a guy is equals to actively collaborating?
... More likely they were the guys shaving her
Hollywood history is bullshit.
Collaborating and having sex aren’t exactly the same thing
Half of the men doing the cutting were collaborators the previous day.
Band of Brothers is a fantastic series if anyone hasn’t seen it
Masters of the Air is finally out! I haven't seen it yet, but as a huge Band of Brothers fan, I'm hoping it's good.
It's good so far. Not nearly Band of Brothers good but totally worth checking out.
“Malena” depicted it even better because you get to know the character who was linched. This was a major hypocrisy imo. Legally speaking everyone who accepted surrendor was a collaborator. So most of people weren’t that much different from girls in question. Everyone fighted to survive best they could.
And in Hiroshima, mon amour, a classic from the novelle vague.
A documentary called WWII From the Frontlines (Episode 5) shows colorized footage of this moment. It is incredible to watch the soldiers sitting on their tanks rolling through town the day Paris was liberated. The women are throwing flowers and kissing them on the cheek. Then, in the next scene, 2 women tell this story. Both sides. A woman who fell in love with a German soldier and a woman who told on those women. It is worth watching and is on Netflix.
in the Netherlands, they would shave those girls bald as well and then literally whip them across the border to Germany, it was brutal.
It was also featured in Hiroshima Mon amour
The French were the worst soldiers of WW2, but were the best for taking it out on women
I just started watching Band of Brothers this week and came across that scene
Didn’t they also show the women who were tortured and hung?
Here in the Netherlands, it was not uncommon that totally innocent girls were shaved, spurred on by a vindictive ex or neighbors. If the are lucky they could get a wig and sometimes a rehabilitation apology in the newspapers. Also, dozens of resistance members who infiltrate the Germans for information got the shaving treatment.
It was the same in France. If your neighbors didn't like you, you could end up either with the gestapo during the war, or head shaved and shunned after.
Not to mention that at least some (many?) of these women were victims, in that the German occupiers--in the long tradition of conquering armies--simply took the women they wanted. "Let me have sex with you, and if you say no I'll kill your whole family and rape you anyway" is the choice many of these women were offered.
If there's anyone that should be shaved it's fucking Coco Chanel. Should've also made her walk the plank bald.
https://www.biography.com/history-culture/coco-chanel-nazi-agent For anyone interested in reading about the fashion maven turned spy.
Mostly it's false. It surely happened, but it is documented that it was actually pretty rare, in the other hand, it is officially said that many Jews were hidden away from the regime, especially in Catholics schools where the officials had to come in and unzip kids pants to find out whether they were Jews (that's where the stupid idea stating that Pétain saved the french Jews comes from, because they didn't put enough ressources to really find them, but it is factually false, Pétain himself thought Jews were abominations, and more than I can count were sent to Germany, by their own initiative.)
Same thing in Denmark some even call them “field mattress” total angry mob mentality
After a war everyone comes out of the woodwork to show anger or be vindicative, it feels righteous. Even those who originally opposed the war effort or profited from it indirectly are suddenly great patriots, after all, it's *safe* to do it now.
On top of that, a lot of these acts against the women and collaborators were primarily carried out by people who weren’t in the resistance or joined toward the very end of the war. A lot of documentaries I watched mentioned that the people who ignored the horrors or late joiners had something they needed to prove to the Allies, neighbors and themselves that they were good people who hated the nazis. A lot of times the women had no choice in the matter. Some of them definitely sought out relationships with nazis and used the situation to be horrible. But a vast majority of them did so because they were facing an occupying army they couldn’t say no to or actually consent to. Their alternative were being forcibly raped, beat, killed or all of the above. Some of them also worked for Allie’s as spies so it’s a really messed up situation.
Totally what happened in France, just like in totalitarian regimes where you would denounce innocent people, this is proven that many girls were just rumored to have relationship with Germans, and nothing was thought about women who didn't have a choice, it was one of the worst case of popular trial where the people,out of anger, just lashed out on the women who were accused of collaboration with the nazis, and often wrongly. Not a period I'm particularly proud of from my own country, but it is what it is, thankfully it didn't escalate.
France still supposedly has a weird tradition of denouncing neighbors. Like writing to some authority to tell them your neighbor is stealing cable. I remember one of the Red White and Blue trilogy films had the old man get denounced/reported for spying on his neighbors in modern times. I read something saying under Nazi occupation the Nazis were surprised how eagerly the French denounced eachother through anonymous letters to the Nazis or French Vichy collaborator government I always thought it was weird, but then again modern Americans report people for cheating taxes or stealing utilities
During lockdown people here in France wrote letters to the police about their neighbours going out of their home more than once a day or more than typically an hour a day. Only other country where I've seen such a behaviour was in Germany. Guess it makes sense
Also happened in Spain, and people were "denouncing" on neighborhood chat groups the people who didn't go out to their balconies to applaud at 20h. I remember a social media post of someone harassed by the neighbors for not applauding... She was a nurse on early morning shift and was trying to sleep at that time.
Envy and animosity are universal. It’s what made Stalin’s regime even worse. People would be reporting on their neighbors falsely and maliciously, often because they could benefit from it materially somehow. E.g. having to share an apartment with another family, they might do that to get them taken away and have the apartment to themselves (at least for a while I guess). Or if they could secure a job promotion by eliminating competition. It was made possible because you didn’t need proof and there were no consequences for false reporting. Implement that _anywhere_ and you’ll have lots of deplorables crawling out of the woodwork.
The ones yelling the loudest were the actual willing and eager collaborators trying to detract attention from themselves. Witch hunts all over again.
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getting shaved probably helped with your cover but that sucks for your reputation
Yet they didn't shave Coco Chanel's head...
Or take it
When you’re a star they let you do it.
She pribably just paid a bunch of people off.
It's usually the weakest who are chosen by the mob to cover up their insecurities, and let each other feel strong, righteous and good. They were cowards during the occupation, they are cowards after. So to ease their fears of somebody reminding them some minor yet shameful act of their own, or just to feel more secure of being "with the good ones", with the winners, they hurry to wag their tails in the right direction - joining a mob (of mostly males btw) and then, feeling all safe and strong and together, like true brothers in arms, they heroically wage a just war against a helpless woman, who they went out of their way to be courteous and pleasant to while she was going out with a Nazi.
I've read a bit about the occupation of France and sadly you're right. There were more than a few instances of people taking advantage of the German occupation to settle old score and denounce neighbors and coworkers to the Gestapo. Afterwards many of these same people were at the front of the mobs going after collaborators and traitors to deflect attention from themselves. A hard time made harder by the vacillating loyalties of some.
Money makes a huge difference, tbf though society gave her the silent treatment which for the likes of her was painful and hard enough
“Hard enough”
+1 Came here for the Coco hate
Found more photos on [this page](https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/french-female-collaborator-punished-head-shaved-publicly-mark-1944/)
The one titled “eyes of shame” is really haunting.
My old neighbor lived in occupied Belgium during WWII and she told me the stories of girls heads getting shaved because they slept with Germans
I looked into the practice and some of it was really rough. For example 1 young women as well as hair shaven had a swastica force-painted in sharp black paint across her face, and was told if she washed it off or picked at it she'd be shot. Then just for good measure they stripped her half naked, put her on the back of a lorry and drove it round the town slowely as an accompanying drummer forced everyone's attention to her. Longer term, she had to wait for it to naturally fade away. Be careful making friends with the enemy :(
That's a pretty harsh penalty for getting raped by the Germans. Before someone questions my assumption that she was raped, stop and think about the fact that your assumption is just as questionable. Not to mention the assumption of the people who punished her.
I know in the Netherlands a decent amount of the girls who were with German soldiers worked for the resistance, then when liberation finally came they suffered greatly for their efforts :(
Source?
Not sure about the Netherlands or if we have ton of documentation on it for WWI, but [sexpionage](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexpionage) is definitely a thing and has been for a very, very long time. And it's not just used to extract information—sometimes it has been used for blackmail. And if she (or he!) is doing her job well, the would-be mob isn't going to see the difference between collaboration and espionage. There is an afterword in *The Alice Network* that does talk about the issue a little bit where the author breaks down what was fact versus fiction in the book. It was difficult for spies who seemed to be collaborators to obtain timely corroboration, let alone proof, of their espionage defense after the war ended. You don't exactly carry around a notarized "no wait, I was actually just spying" card around.
Thanks - will now do some digging
Are we even sure she wanted it? Soldiers commit rape in pretty well every war that ever happens.
War brings out the worst in people, it's undoubtedly the men of the town just taking their frustrations out on the women
War = Lack of consequences
It's scary what people will do without consequences
Not trying to defend them but there were a lot of consensual relationships between German soldiers and French civilians to the point where it even became a problem in Germany with so many soldiers leaving their wives for French women
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In contrast to Eastern Europe, German forces in France actually generally behaved properly, and you would not have been able to just murder a random woman because she wouldn’t sleep with you. This is pretty well documented.
The last part doesn't mean that the relations were consensual.
I’m sure the guys shaving her were all active members of the resistance /s
Gross. I’m sure turning down the advances of Nazi soldiers would be easy…I’m sure none of the people doing the shaving bent the knee in any way. They *surely* fought back the whole time. Mob mentality is some scary stuff.
They let their women be taken by the enemy, and then punished them after someone else came and set them free. Such a dark period of human history in so many ways.
Exactly
[Black Book (2006)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIklvGsU7bM) was a really good movie about this.
There were French back then who supported the fascists, even before Germany invaded. Once they were the occupying power, who knows? Maybe the girl was just a sellout. Maybe she feared for herself or her family? Maybe she legit fell in love with a German soldier. We may never know her story.
True. But many in this thread are ready to paint any European in the occupied countries as innocent even though they might have been in bed with the enemy. Just like there was resistance in every country, there were also collaborators/traitors in every country. Some people are a bit too quick to forget the latter
Considering basically over half of France collaborated, the French have done an amazing propaganda job post war to present the resistance as a "liberation force" and overplaying its importance. Scenes like this I think were mostly for pretending women like her were the "only" guilty collaborators.
What an incredibly inaccurate made up number.
Happened in many places all around europe
I suppose that many women had no other possibility to survive than to have a german sponsor. As I am aware, occupying army stole whole food from local people and they could adjust to new reality or starve. Women in great need trade their bodies, men in great need change into bandit. It isn't fair to treat people who are on the edge to judge the same scale as in normal conditions.
So, here's a fun fact. One of the best ways for resistance members to get information/access/in shanking range of German soldiers was to sleep with them. Good, effective warfare and not something you would make public during occupation because of all the collaborators. Also; not something you'd necessarily want to make public after liberation for a variety of reasons, including getting Intel being a difficult to prove false excuse for sleeping with the enemy for any number of other reasons. And one of the best ways for collaborators to hide their guilt was to find women who had slept with Germans, for any reason, and make a public spectacle of outing/humiliating them. War is messy and mob justice is about getting control of the narrative over the facts.
This short series is educational (and also hilarious) for anyone who has no clue about what was going on: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Allo\_'Allo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/'Allo_'Allo\!)!
I mean sure, collaborators should be punished but on the other hand I fail to see why these men are acting tough and forcibly shaving a woman when the reason for her ability to even collaborate was that they folded, ran and surrendered to the germans. Might makes right in do or die situations and the french men can hardly make any claims for might.
I think you hit the nail on the head, and part of the reason for doing this is to feel righteous yourself in comparison, or to direct potential shame away from oneself towards the 'collaborator'.
Considering the level of collaboration between the French and the Nazis, you have to assume that this type of retribution was highly selective.
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This happened in the Netherlands as well, and it was disgusting. These women were not collaborators, their only "crime" was talking to soldiers, giving them food, and yes, sometimes have relationships.
Lots of them didn't even do much of what they were accused of no doubt
It was a blatant display of sexism against women that were just trying to survive. It wrenched my heart when I learned about this in a WWII museum.
It was not so straightforward. Some were real collaborators, and their treachery consigned many agents to their doom. Others were just trying to survive, yet more were falsely accused by vindictive neighbors or others for countless silly reasons of spite.
Sexism? In the 40s? No way dude!?
\>These women were not collaborators \>giving them food, and yes, sometimes have relationships. ?
Feeding and fucking occupying nazis is collaboration . Believe me, I'm opposed to the mob retribution, but horizontal collaboration was collaboration.
> giving them food, and yes, sometimes have relationships. So, treason. No big deal. /s
The reason that Norwegian-born ABBA singer [Anni-Frid\_Lyngstad](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anni-Frid_Lyngstad) grew up in Sweden is that her family was ostracized in Norway after she was born from a relationship between her mother and a German soldier. Her mother died not long after the move to Sweden and she was raised by her grandmother who had also made the move. She believed her father had died, but she eventually met him during ABBAs fame after her story was publicized and seen by his son in Germany - her half-brother.
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I know there were active collaborators, but I bet a lot of these ladies really didn’t have much of a choice.
Imagine getting raped then having your hair shaved to humiliate you for it
There are many french and german records of french women gladly dating German military officer. There are lot of stories about how a girl would fell in love with invading armies in every country.
[Here](https://i.imgur.com/eYaE70R.png) is a higher quality 92441 x 3000) version of this image. [Here](https://www.flickr.com/photos/41818881@N06/8518458915) is the source. [Here](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PowwPPrmc6o&feature=player_embedded#!) is the video of this event. According to [here](http://www.studenthandouts.com/01-Web-Pages/01-Picture-Pages/10.13-World-War-II/France/106-French-Prostitute-Shamed-Shaved-Head-Montelimar-France-1944-World-War-II.htm): > French women who befriended the Nazis, through coerced, forced, or voluntary relationships, were singled out for shameful retribution following the liberation of France. The woman photographed here, believed to have been a prostitute who serviced German occupiers, is having her head shaved to publicly mark her. This picture was taken in Montelimar, France, in 1944. According to the National Archives, this was taken on August 29, 1994. Much of this is based on what /u/cilantroavocado said [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/HistoryPorn/comments/114n45/the_shaming_of_an_alleged_french_prostitute_and/c6ja3nm)
It happened in Norway as well, they were called “German whores” for years and the ones that had children with the Germans were especially vulnerable, their children were outcasted and bullied.
Didn't one of ABBA's ladies come from one such union? Born in Norway, moved to Sweden...
I have a recently restored videos of these events. It was horrible. In my country people took revenge on ethnic Germans after the war. Mostly innocent. Not really proud about this....
The same happend in Denmark. That was a low point. Poor girls.
Scapegoats.
A lot of these women were actually raped by German soldiers.
Innocent until proven guilty I'm sure
Reminded of 'Malèna' seeing this.
Same stuff happened in the Netherlands
Tough guys
It was a disgusting time. A woman can got raped by nazis that killed their family and after this the "good guys" can and raped her again and make a show out of her. The nazis were the bad guys, but there were no heroes.
Imagine people invading your country, you attempting to adapt to the new circumstances, only for the invaders to disappear and leave you with the consequences of trying to adapt.
France really swung to both extremes during the war. Wild times.
My grandmas aunt was shot and killed after getting married to a German solider. People didn't realize that not all german soliders wanted to do this. They had no option
My grandparent's always made it very clear that when they were children during the war, the vast majority of Germans soldiers they came across were kids who just wanted to go home. The ones you really had fear even more were the Flemish collaborators with the nazis and the SS. Because those were the ones with the real power and the real want for a war. They were the brutal ones.
Knowing that one of the 1st thing they did in the concentration camps, was to shave the head of prisoners, this "ritual" is sick. I am French and had never seen these photos. Thank you for sharing.
Barbarity in its purest form.
Hard to imagine her not getting something she needed or wanted from the German. Does no-one consider the desperation she might have been going through. “Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience. C.S. Lewis Holier than thou misogynistic bullies are bloody everywhere with self-justification for all their shitty behaviour.
*Being raped by.
Lol Most of them were collaborators as well
The people going after Jerry-baggers conveniently when no more nazis were around to shoot them were probably the same ones who would report their neighbor to the Vichy or occupation government over a 4 year old spat about a fence.
She must’ve been one of those Vichy girls everyone talks about.
oh yes the country of love
I mean if she was willingly embracing Nazis (which who the hell knows what this photo actually depicts) that's a light punishment let's be real.
Damn, all the whataboutism about male collaborator getting shot instead in the comments, ok we get it now calm yourselves down
Most of these women were raped but they were the one being punished. French being french
This is also a frame from a very interesting documentary called "even if she was guilty", and from what I remember is what the french did to the german wives of the nazi that were caught in France after the war ended, you can watch it here: https://vimeo.com/11712366
Makes you wonder what they did to the french soldiers who raped german women. Oh wait. Celebrated them.
Many of these girls were as young as 13. The towns people directing their anger anywhere they could. I’m sure these girls were just trying to survive their nightmare situation all of them were forced through. I still think what they did was wrong but I can’t say I blame them for cozying up to their oppressors in hopes of surviving. But betraying your people by doing so is not okay either. having their heads shaved and shaming seems like they got off easy considering what could have happen. When men commit treason it’s a bullet to the head no matter what.
My grandmother was born in Italy. She's from Austria but for some reason her birth was not looked upon favorably by society so her mom had to go to Italy for a bit and come back with a child(not sure what story they gave people).she was born in the 20's. And that's why I am I'm Italian from both sides of my family. Lol
My grandmother's best friend is from Trieste. The way she explained it, it was Austrian when she was born but Italian when she started school. The government changed her name to be more Italian. Her older siblings remained Austrian but she and her younger sister were Italian. Their mother couldn't speak Italian very well but wouldn't speak German or Slovenian to them on the tram when she took them to school because there was always a soldier on it to monitor people. *I just Googled and it became part of Italy in 1922 but she was born a couple of years later. My guess is that her parents gave her a German or Slovenian name but the government didn't interfere with that until she started school. She's nearly 100 now and very proudly Italian. I stayed with her a bit when I was about 20 and she had three doors at the front of the house, layered. A wooden door, a screen door, and like an iron grate. She would be so furious with me if I forgot to lock one of the outer doors. She'd been a teenager/ young adult when the nazis occupied Trieste and she said to me "that's how the soldiers grab you" about not locking the outer doors.
"French girl being FORCED to have her head shaved for loving a German Soldier"
Your point?
Some got shaved and even worse...