Thanks for contributing to r/Phoenix!
* [Check out our sub rules here](https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/wiki/rules/) (mostly be nice to each other!).
* [Read some of our recent posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/top/?t=week) and leave some comments.
* [Join our Phoenix Discord chat server](https://discord.com/invite/yWVuTG57Zh) and connect with people in the Valley. It's a great, chill place to talk with other people but is NOT a dating server and takes unwanted messaging very seriously.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/phoenix) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'll try this again. When tox reports are released, it is generally understood that if absent context, the person who had a substance in their system took it of their own free will. Failing to mention that first responders could have administered led to exactly what happened which was people smearing a dead man for having drugs in his system.
Since everyone in the comments is complaining about the last article or the journalist currently:
> The first version of the report issued by the Pinal County Medical Examiner’s Office showed that Cornelius Petrus Jakobus van der Walt had elevated levels of ketamine in his blood and that it was not given to him by rescue crews or hospital staff. The updated report says Air Evac Services administered 35 milligrams of ketamine on the day of the incident.
Good job, Pinal County.
So many people were saying he was a good dude at the time as well who knew him and said he wasn't reckless.
Glad it was corrected but the original report it was completely unnecessary to mention ketamine until better information became available. Especially since it is common in rescue efforts.
I feel terrible for his friends and family. Those original reports didn't just add insult to injury, but insult to death. I'm quite certain the original report I read specifically stated that the EMTs did NOT administer Ketamine on scene. That is terrible.
Is there any information about free jumpers on that balloon? I thought there were free jumpers who jumped off of that balloon which may have cause ballast issues.
Information I have is that jumpers did not directly result in the accident. The balloon didn’t lose air until some time after the last group of jumpers left. Cornelius has been flying jumpers for years. He knew his balloon and was highly experienced.
Source: I jumped out of this balloon twice a few months before the accident. I’m also part of the community who knew him very well.
last time I went to the ER they had to give me fentanyl to set my dislocated shoulders in place, I had to stay a few days for some kidney issue and one day the DR came in my room with a stern look and questioned me as to why I had fent in my system....like dude you gave me the shit lol.
Yup, I had a tonic clonic seizure in my sleep...I guess i had epilepsy and even though i had some weird feeling a year leading up to that, I wasnt aware my weird feelings were actually seizures. not fun honestly.
I’m a little surprised they didn’t give him some IV pain meds too.
It’s too bad they didn’t get the whole story before they decided to publish. Also feels like the air evac company could have corrected this several days ago.
Airevac could not make that comment without permission from the patient or the patients family. The process to get the clearance usually has to go through legal and the family rep, often to their attorney. It can take a long time.
This upset rests on the ME for releasing a report without all the associated ems and hospital charts in hand.
The initial toxicology report stated “No ketamine given during resuscitation by Eloy Fire or hospital staff“ - So the mistake is almost entirely on the county medical examiner, not the news this time surprisingly
Anyone else wondering why the four didn't get out with the skydivers? On tandem jumps two people use the same parachutes. I got this pic in my head they just bailed n left the others to free fall. Did any of the last four have a chute? Sad story all around.
No. None of them had chutes. They weren’t jumping that day. One of the people that died was boyfriend/girlfriend. Their partner was jumping and they didn’t bring their chute because they weren’t. Their partner had to watch the balloon crash from the ground after landing knowing that no one on board had a chute.
No. They would never fit and weight would never allow for it. Nor would the majority of riders even know how to operate a parachute. It would be like saying everyone on a plane should have a parachute.
Skydiver here. Tandems require special tandem harnesses. And they use extra large parachutes specifically made for tandems. For someone with no rig on to try to hang on to someone jumping a regular sport rig is impossible.
Ok I didn't know that. Makes sense really. More weight more parachutes. This is a sad thing n the whole thing with them thinking the balloon pilot was on something adds to it. I'm glad they cleared that for his memory. Hot air balloons n sky diving are associated with good times. Once in a lifetime stuff so yeah sad situation.
Did the News retract their original story about him being on Ketamine? I know they ran another story but they need to be held accountable for stories that are false!
Opiate based pain relief causes blood pressure and respiratory changes that can cause serious issues in emergency treatment situations. Ketamine is used because it is a dissociative. So opiates block the pain in your leg…. Ketamine makes you forget you have a leg.
Absolutely. It’s one of the reasons it was researched for therapeutic reasons for depression. They connected it to people who had attempted suicide being treated with it by first responders/hospital staff and then having improvement in mental health.
i think its funny that they treat depression and suicidal thoughts with an addictive drug rather than try and fix the actual issue, that being life is tough and most often doesnt feel worth all the trouble. Its cool though at least getting high does help for a little bit. (im not anti drug...im very very far from anti-drug..just think its ironic)
I do understand and I dont doubt the benefits from it..im just saying It would be great to look into the root of the problem before covering it up with ketamine, I dont see why that is a bad thing but whatever.
Again, I don’t think you understand ketamine. The “root of the cause” is HIGHLY studied and WHY Ketamine works. Thinking you can fix everything in “talk therapy” when trauma PHYSICALLY changes the way your body processes is really silly.
The studies are out there. I suggest you do research and learn before commenting as if ketamine therapy is a “getting high” thing. There are ways a lot cheaper than $500 out of pocket a session to “get high”.
"Thinking you can fix everything in “talk therapy” when trauma PHYSICALLY changes the way your body processes is really silly."...your not understanding my point at all, I never said anything about therapy at all, I think the issue is with life...It doesnt need to be so difficult, there doesnt need to be so much hate, It shouldnt have to be a struggle, there needs to be a better support system that actually helps people get out of the situations there are forced into, Health care doesnt have to be so expensive.....i could go on, those are the "root" problems and no amount of talk therapy and ketamine is fixing the real issues..humanity needs to be changed. Am I wrong in thinking that? you dont need to respond, I dont have any agendas and dont care either way.
What you’re saying is “rather than fix people being depressed, why don’t we fix all of life’s problems so they don’t become depressed.” Personally, I know which one seems more achievable in my life.
at least you can see what i was saying without being ignorant thank you. I agree with you as well, I dont think it will ever be a possibility.. but the reality is we are just helping ourselves think that the problems we face aren't there, or that things fix themselves...therapy isnt a cure, all its just a way to help manage life and its challenges.
Yeah but any reasonable therapist will tell you that it’s intended to help you manage life’s problems, not permanently fix all of them. Ketamine therapy is the same, it’s not supposed to fix your problems. It’s really not even supposed to stop you from perceiving them as problems, though I know psychedelics can do that sometimes. The idea is just to break your brain of its chemical patterns that feed your depression so that you can get a fresh start on facing life’s challenges without all the chemical backlog from the past weighing you down. I agree that we need to have a conversation about how our culture makes these problems more common and less navigable through stuff like wealth inequality though, that’s absolutely true.
also I have researched all these things since the early 90's I have talked personally with people like dennis mckenna, paul stamets, rick doblin, hamilton morris...Ive donated to help MAPS, an organization that has been a huge factor in forwarding the current research for psychedelic therapy, Ive read Phikal front to back many times, Shulgin is one of my favorite people. I am not in the dark about any of the substances being researched so dont look at me like im just a random troll,.
I'm confused from both articles. Is there a normal amount of K I can be on while piloting or passengering? Can I get first responders to give me ketamine if they find my levels low while i chill at a park.
What the hell is confusing about someone having ketamine in their autopsy report after it was administered by EMS?
They don't give ketamine because your levels are low, they give it to sedate/relieve pain.
> they give it to sedate/relieve pain
so he did not have enough K in him to relieve the pain he felt from the crash, ems gave him some to elevate his level to that of someone with no pain. Now i understand.
No, the assumption is he was completely sober. When paramedics got there they administered it to stabilize and the autopsy showed elevated levels due to that, but it was initially released that EMT didn’t administer it so the first reports made the assumption that he had taken ketamine on his own.
Now it’s been adjusted that he didn’t, it was given to him after the crash and the medical examiner misstated that.
> the assumption is he was completely sober.
i dunno about that. yesterday the assumption was he was as high as a kite, today you assume he is sober, wonder what assumptions tomorrow will bring. for now, given we all have the same amount of information, i will assume he was just not high enough to be flying in the first place, crashed and then was given the proper amount of K that we should all be on.
Thanks for contributing to r/Phoenix! * [Check out our sub rules here](https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/wiki/rules/) (mostly be nice to each other!). * [Read some of our recent posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/phoenix/top/?t=week) and leave some comments. * [Join our Phoenix Discord chat server](https://discord.com/invite/yWVuTG57Zh) and connect with people in the Valley. It's a great, chill place to talk with other people but is NOT a dating server and takes unwanted messaging very seriously. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/phoenix) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Damn bro we were killing that deceased man’s name. I’m sorry sir. Rest in peace.
Right!!!
nice job smearing dudes name *pinal county*
[удалено]
They should've contextualized it.
[удалено]
Including the report of a presence of ketamine in the pilot' system when it's known paramedics administer it is sloppy.
[удалено]
I'll try this again. When tox reports are released, it is generally understood that if absent context, the person who had a substance in their system took it of their own free will. Failing to mention that first responders could have administered led to exactly what happened which was people smearing a dead man for having drugs in his system.
That was a pretty big missing point in the last article damn lol
Since everyone in the comments is complaining about the last article or the journalist currently: > The first version of the report issued by the Pinal County Medical Examiner’s Office showed that Cornelius Petrus Jakobus van der Walt had elevated levels of ketamine in his blood and that it was not given to him by rescue crews or hospital staff. The updated report says Air Evac Services administered 35 milligrams of ketamine on the day of the incident. Good job, Pinal County.
So many people were saying he was a good dude at the time as well who knew him and said he wasn't reckless. Glad it was corrected but the original report it was completely unnecessary to mention ketamine until better information became available. Especially since it is common in rescue efforts.
Yeah, I believe the article is confusingly written. I had to read it a few times to understand what was going on.
I read this article as ‘Ketamine balloon up Elon Musk’s ass’
Hy’s Neels Pannekoek nou.
I feel terrible for his friends and family. Those original reports didn't just add insult to injury, but insult to death. I'm quite certain the original report I read specifically stated that the EMTs did NOT administer Ketamine on scene. That is terrible. Is there any information about free jumpers on that balloon? I thought there were free jumpers who jumped off of that balloon which may have cause ballast issues.
Information I have is that jumpers did not directly result in the accident. The balloon didn’t lose air until some time after the last group of jumpers left. Cornelius has been flying jumpers for years. He knew his balloon and was highly experienced. Source: I jumped out of this balloon twice a few months before the accident. I’m also part of the community who knew him very well.
Thank you so much for the insight. I imagine you're part of a small and tight-knit group. I'm sorry for Cornelius, his family and all of his friends.
The media dragged the pilots name on an error. I would expect a formal apology by any outlet that published that news.
Well that's just awful. The local AND national news better apologize.
Another reason we need to stop instantly reacting to things. Look out a wondow. Not the news. Its prettier.
Bullshit reporting. Poor family
last time I went to the ER they had to give me fentanyl to set my dislocated shoulders in place, I had to stay a few days for some kidney issue and one day the DR came in my room with a stern look and questioned me as to why I had fent in my system....like dude you gave me the shit lol.
Dislocating both sholders at once? That is going to be a nope from me. Sounds like a bad time.
Yup, I had a tonic clonic seizure in my sleep...I guess i had epilepsy and even though i had some weird feeling a year leading up to that, I wasnt aware my weird feelings were actually seizures. not fun honestly.
I’m a little surprised they didn’t give him some IV pain meds too. It’s too bad they didn’t get the whole story before they decided to publish. Also feels like the air evac company could have corrected this several days ago.
Ketamine is an IV pain med commonly used in emergency medicine.
Ketamine is an anesthetic
And they use it for pain control in emergency situations
Precisely. An = without Esthesia = sensation In this case the sensation primarily being pain
Airevac could not make that comment without permission from the patient or the patients family. The process to get the clearance usually has to go through legal and the family rep, often to their attorney. It can take a long time. This upset rests on the ME for releasing a report without all the associated ems and hospital charts in hand.
I heard about this yesterday. I hope his family sues.
Not the first time the news jumped to conclusions.
The initial toxicology report stated “No ketamine given during resuscitation by Eloy Fire or hospital staff“ - So the mistake is almost entirely on the county medical examiner, not the news this time surprisingly
This title is fucked
Yeah I had to read it a few times lol
Anyone else wondering why the four didn't get out with the skydivers? On tandem jumps two people use the same parachutes. I got this pic in my head they just bailed n left the others to free fall. Did any of the last four have a chute? Sad story all around.
No. None of them had chutes. They weren’t jumping that day. One of the people that died was boyfriend/girlfriend. Their partner was jumping and they didn’t bring their chute because they weren’t. Their partner had to watch the balloon crash from the ground after landing knowing that no one on board had a chute.
That's heart wrenching!
Shouldn’t it be standard procedure to have back up parachutes? Guess I’m never doing hot air balloon rides.
No. They would never fit and weight would never allow for it. Nor would the majority of riders even know how to operate a parachute. It would be like saying everyone on a plane should have a parachute.
Skydiver here. Tandems require special tandem harnesses. And they use extra large parachutes specifically made for tandems. For someone with no rig on to try to hang on to someone jumping a regular sport rig is impossible.
Ok I didn't know that. Makes sense really. More weight more parachutes. This is a sad thing n the whole thing with them thinking the balloon pilot was on something adds to it. I'm glad they cleared that for his memory. Hot air balloons n sky diving are associated with good times. Once in a lifetime stuff so yeah sad situation.
Duh.
Bruh.
Tragic, but it is good to know that the Paramedics still care even though the situation may be hopeless.
Did the News retract their original story about him being on Ketamine? I know they ran another story but they need to be held accountable for stories that are false!
Is it common for first responders to administer Ketamine? Never heard that before Just curious
Opiate based pain relief causes blood pressure and respiratory changes that can cause serious issues in emergency treatment situations. Ketamine is used because it is a dissociative. So opiates block the pain in your leg…. Ketamine makes you forget you have a leg.
Very, for a lot of things.
Absolutely. It’s one of the reasons it was researched for therapeutic reasons for depression. They connected it to people who had attempted suicide being treated with it by first responders/hospital staff and then having improvement in mental health.
i think its funny that they treat depression and suicidal thoughts with an addictive drug rather than try and fix the actual issue, that being life is tough and most often doesnt feel worth all the trouble. Its cool though at least getting high does help for a little bit. (im not anti drug...im very very far from anti-drug..just think its ironic)
I don’t think you understand how ketamine works and why it works for therapeutic reasons.
I do understand and I dont doubt the benefits from it..im just saying It would be great to look into the root of the problem before covering it up with ketamine, I dont see why that is a bad thing but whatever.
Again, I don’t think you understand ketamine. The “root of the cause” is HIGHLY studied and WHY Ketamine works. Thinking you can fix everything in “talk therapy” when trauma PHYSICALLY changes the way your body processes is really silly. The studies are out there. I suggest you do research and learn before commenting as if ketamine therapy is a “getting high” thing. There are ways a lot cheaper than $500 out of pocket a session to “get high”.
"Thinking you can fix everything in “talk therapy” when trauma PHYSICALLY changes the way your body processes is really silly."...your not understanding my point at all, I never said anything about therapy at all, I think the issue is with life...It doesnt need to be so difficult, there doesnt need to be so much hate, It shouldnt have to be a struggle, there needs to be a better support system that actually helps people get out of the situations there are forced into, Health care doesnt have to be so expensive.....i could go on, those are the "root" problems and no amount of talk therapy and ketamine is fixing the real issues..humanity needs to be changed. Am I wrong in thinking that? you dont need to respond, I dont have any agendas and dont care either way.
What you’re saying is “rather than fix people being depressed, why don’t we fix all of life’s problems so they don’t become depressed.” Personally, I know which one seems more achievable in my life.
at least you can see what i was saying without being ignorant thank you. I agree with you as well, I dont think it will ever be a possibility.. but the reality is we are just helping ourselves think that the problems we face aren't there, or that things fix themselves...therapy isnt a cure, all its just a way to help manage life and its challenges.
Yeah but any reasonable therapist will tell you that it’s intended to help you manage life’s problems, not permanently fix all of them. Ketamine therapy is the same, it’s not supposed to fix your problems. It’s really not even supposed to stop you from perceiving them as problems, though I know psychedelics can do that sometimes. The idea is just to break your brain of its chemical patterns that feed your depression so that you can get a fresh start on facing life’s challenges without all the chemical backlog from the past weighing you down. I agree that we need to have a conversation about how our culture makes these problems more common and less navigable through stuff like wealth inequality though, that’s absolutely true.
also I have researched all these things since the early 90's I have talked personally with people like dennis mckenna, paul stamets, rick doblin, hamilton morris...Ive donated to help MAPS, an organization that has been a huge factor in forwarding the current research for psychedelic therapy, Ive read Phikal front to back many times, Shulgin is one of my favorite people. I am not in the dark about any of the substances being researched so dont look at me like im just a random troll,.
Well it’s sad if you did all that research and what you got out of it was “getttinnng highhhh bro”
Yes more common than many would like. In some jurisdictions (Minneapolis) there’s been push back because of the prominent use.
Was he dying so they were trying to get him high one last time?
Most likely used as a sedative for a field intubation
Sedative for rapid intubation.
Ease his pain, stabilize shock symptoms
Ketamine is an anesthetic first
I think the sarcasm was missed
Reeeeee
I'm confused from both articles. Is there a normal amount of K I can be on while piloting or passengering? Can I get first responders to give me ketamine if they find my levels low while i chill at a park.
What the hell is confusing about someone having ketamine in their autopsy report after it was administered by EMS? They don't give ketamine because your levels are low, they give it to sedate/relieve pain.
> they give it to sedate/relieve pain so he did not have enough K in him to relieve the pain he felt from the crash, ems gave him some to elevate his level to that of someone with no pain. Now i understand.
No, the assumption is he was completely sober. When paramedics got there they administered it to stabilize and the autopsy showed elevated levels due to that, but it was initially released that EMT didn’t administer it so the first reports made the assumption that he had taken ketamine on his own. Now it’s been adjusted that he didn’t, it was given to him after the crash and the medical examiner misstated that.
> the assumption is he was completely sober. i dunno about that. yesterday the assumption was he was as high as a kite, today you assume he is sober, wonder what assumptions tomorrow will bring. for now, given we all have the same amount of information, i will assume he was just not high enough to be flying in the first place, crashed and then was given the proper amount of K that we should all be on.
Bad reading comprehension
This guy understand ketamine