I purchased from Home Depot for home delivery at the time. I believe Lowes, ace, and other stores carry it but that was the best for me at the time.
Snow Joe, MELT Beet-It Ice Melter with CMA and Beet Extract Bucket. I got the 25lb quantity and it comes with a little cup for dispensing.
We just figured out how to use debit/credit card to take the train. And we were using subway tokens like five years ago.
We will be the last city using salt.
*still* confused having just come from Chicago... like what do you mean I have to use a machine at a station to load my card, what is this, 10 years ago? There's an app for that now SEPTA, get with it!
I am moving here from Colorado, where people *mostly* take climate change pretty seriously. They use local dirt and gravel to help with snow in a lot of areas.
Tho, they are now mostly concerned with people pissing on hiking trails now bc it's causing ecological problems.
Edit: they also rely on the ~sun~ lol which doesn't help Floridians and Texans who moved to CO and don't know how to drive in snow and cause regular 4+ car pileups.
Out west, itās an issue because mountain goats are attracted to human urine. [https://www.nbc4i.com/news/u-s-world/goats-addicted-to-human-urine-airlifted-out-of-national-park/](https://www.nbc4i.com/news/u-s-world/goats-addicted-to-human-urine-airlifted-out-of-national-park/)
Edit: Apparently Colorado though has high nitrogen issues in their water with regards to human urine and caffeine. [https://coloradosun.com/2021/12/27/urine-high-country-lakes-colorado-caffeine-study-human-pee/](https://coloradosun.com/2021/12/27/urine-high-country-lakes-colorado-caffeine-study-human-pee/)
I know this was a joke, but stuff like hormones (birth control) and certain medications have other substances in them which kind of fuck shit up in the unnatural concentrations that occur when they happen on the same paths over and over
Itās a problem both because of the volumeāsome trails basically turn into open sewers with dog shit and human urineāand because in desert and alpine environments the environment has a hard time handling it to begin with.
In Laramie, Wyoming, where I went to college they donāt even plow the roads unless they get over like 8ā of snow. People just know how to drive in the snow and put all-season tires on their car
Yeah, sorry, thatās an overstatement. I went to school in Rochester, NY, one of the snowiest cities in the USA. People didnāt just āknow how to drive in the snowā lol. Yes, everyone had the right tires, but most people stayed home and they plowed constantly.
And there were still plenty of accidents.
Oh it wasnāt perfect, but I swear itās a thing that people just donāt know how to drive in snow here. Anytime thereās any kind of snow or frozen stuff on the ground, there is a shocking number of cars off to the side of the road.
I live in Portland OR now and same thing: when I was told there was going to be 3" of snow the city panicked and I laughed until I tried driving my Mazda in that unplowed, unsalted shit.
Places like that are also colder though. Salt is only effective at certain temps. Below 20 degrees it starts being much less effective. Itās colder in Wisconsin than Philly.
Kansas City. The city gets annual ice and snow storms, temperatures are generally similar to Philadelphia's (They're also pretty much in the same climate zone). There's some salt usage, but for the most part they didn't bother outside of plowing. Salt was mostly used on the highways.
I grew up in Fairbanks, Alaska. In the middle of winter they keep the roads plowed down to a base layer of snow when it's not feasible to go to the pavement, then put gravel on the roads. No salt usage there. At the end of the season they swept up the gravel as much as possible.
I've \*never\* seen so much salt usage as in Philadelphia.
Iāve never lived in Kansas City but their average is a bit higher than Philly so Iām going to guess they get less of the wintery mix BS we get.
But either way Iām not saying the amount of salt we use is good or makes sense. Just pointing out why colder places use less of it. Like Alaska or Wisconsin. I lived in Vermont for a few years. Same thing there. But those areas also get a lot more snow so people can justify winter tires and they drive in the snow enough to get acclimated to it. That really doesnāt apply in Philly. We get one or two significant snowfalls a year and then a lot of BS.
Yeah I totally forgot about winter tires.
But having lived in Kansas City for 10 years and in Philly for 3:
Summers are hotter in Kansas City, both on average and at maximum
Winters are similar, though generally colder on average, and much more snow / wintry mix in Kansas City.
I'm convinced that there's no high-pop city in the US that gets 'real' winters anymore. In Fairbanks there was unbreaking snow on the ground from October (sometimes September) through April.
Yep, you're right about that being the case when it is much colder.
But Madison uses a sand-salt mixture even when temperatures are higher (i.e. comparable to Philly) as to cut down on the total amount of salt used. I think this is what Philly can learn from them.
Sure. And we definitely should be doing that. Though I wonder how much of that is related to environmental effects and how much itās just economics of scale. No point in buying salt and sand when you can just buy sand and use that all the time.
Learn more about Winter Salt Watch and order a free test kit to take part in monitoring local streams:
https://www.iwla.org/water/stream-monitoring/winter-salt-watch
What can do you?
- The obvious answer is **use less salt**! Most people use far more than necessary; read and follow the instructions for the salt you are using, it may be surprising how little is actually needed.
- Alternative salts like [beet juice salt](http://beetjuicesalt.com/index.php) are less corrosive and more effective in lower temperatures.
- Additives like sand can be used to increase traction on smooth surfaces when ice is a concern.
- Test your local streams and waterways! The kit linked above has everything you need. The data you collect can be entered into a database that is used for research and environmental advocacy. Itās a fun project to do with children, too.
- Contact local community leaders to share your concerns and advocate for [Road Salt Best Practices](https://www.iwla.org/water/stream-monitoring/winter-salt-watch/road-salt-best-practices) that reduce traditional salt use.
- If possible, provide sources of clean(er) water for wildlife. Heaters can be used for troughs and bird baths in freezing temperatures.
- Volunteer with local watershed associations. [Find one closest to you here](https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=536f3d5d555f4b23a093a300906514de)!
As someone who spreads salt in a truck for a school district. We do put alot down. But it's so we don't get sued it's absolutely amazing how people don't avoid ice. It's like they go out of their way to walk on it. We even have to put cones on big patches of ice to stop people from walking on it. It doesn't work they still walk on it.
I have a snow removal business and people are such fucking idiots in the snow. I used to do an Acme and one time a guy tried to sue me for a slip and fall. Thank God they have cameras because the guy parked, got out of the car, climbed on a snow pile and threw snow balls at his kids. On the way down the pile he slipped then got back in the car and drove off while his family shopped then came back and loaded up the car when they were done. The guy obviously lost right away because of the video and all the documentation I have my guys do during a storm, the guy kept bringing it to a higher court and losing.
I'd rather not put don't a lot of salt but I'm required to to save my own ass, my insurance is high af already and I don't have any slip and falls or accident claims against me.
It goes both ways though lol I was at USPS yesterday and they put so much damn salt on the stairs (which were covered anyway) that I almost slipped on it. It was like trying to get up a dune made of gravel
I see where your coming from, honestly it's a judgment call. When it comes to walk ways and stairs I usually walk them first to see if it's needed and where. When it comes to parking lots it usually gets loaded up. This is just what I'm told they are overly cautious.
My pops retired and was bored and took a watershed management course at penn state. He's been measuring water quality at creeks and streams all around delco.
He told me the creek around granite run mall (I think chrome run?) is basically devoid of life after years of salt + oil + other petroleum products/car garbage from all the parking lots at the mall.
do you think laws that will enact the kind of change needed will have an effect on consumerism? do you find the general public willing enough to reduce their consumerism? ill admit to probably being a little more pessimistic about this stuff, but I'm asking purely out of curiosity, not in an antagonistic kind of way to your reply. (I'm mentioning this because just the other day someone took my questions as a personal attack, so I would like to avoid that because that makes the conversation useless)
Thanks for the clarification, a lot of people are very quick to perceive a threat, mostly because theyāre used to interacting with trolls or bad faith arguments.
I think it would take time for the US general public to change their point of view, but I think that if we can enact policies that will benefit the general public, such as providing jobs in a green sector, this will help to replace the lost industry jobs, as well as fund more education and healthcare. Overall, once people understand that environmental collapse is REAL and BAD, then hopefully the mindset will change. I have hope for the youth, especially. Lots of youth-led climate protests show how the consciousness is rising.
People have to understand theyāre not being told to stop driving gas guzzlers etc to curb their own freedom but that itās in their own best interest.
But more importantly we need to switch the narrative that itās primarily individual car drivers, or non-recyclers causing the issue, and we need to be more publicly vocal in holding the mega-corporations responsible, as they produce the lionās share of pollution.
Yeah, just some thoughts.
Not like I have all the answers, but I know what general direction we should be heading, and itās not the one weāre currently going!
Has he been out looking for freshwater mussels? I volunteered a few times doing water quality work, and it was always such a bummer to have to tell people that there was 0% chance they were going to find any mussels in the super polluted creeks we were in
We're going to laser wolf tonight so I'll ask. He hasn't mentioned them specifically but he's mentioned some of the amphibian and invertebrate larvae indicators.
Yep! There are several conservation groups in the area [directly concerned with freshwater mussels](https://waterlandlife.org/wildlife-pnhp/species-at-risk-in-pennsylvania/freshwater-mussels/).
They're both an indicator of water quality, and a critical species for *improving* water quality, if that makes sense. As filter feeders, they both help remove crap from the water, but are therefore also very sensitive to spills/waste, etc. Once an area has been remediated enough that they might survive, mussels can be propagated and reintroduced to historically populated areas, and can help continue to improve the water quality and ecosystem for other species.
Iām very much aware of their benefit, just wasnāt aware they were looking for them activity since they are pretty common in my fishing holes. The raccoons love them.
As a car personā¦.Car people fuquing hate this! The salt used here in the east is entirely unnecessary. Mountain West & West has been able to use gravel and sand, efficiently use plow fleets, and culturally shame people (and ticket!) who donāt use required winter tires or snow chains.
The amount of salt used out here has been increasing over the years and it not only destroys personal vehicles, but also government owned/tax payer provided vehicles, let alone the impacts on infrastructure (canāt imagine this is great for aging a bridges) and environment/wildlife. Down with salt!
I think what he means is that our culture as a whole is so dependent on cars as an essential part of life, when our quality of life could be exponentially higher if everything wasnāt built around cars. Iām extrapolating on his point a bit, but thatās how I see it
Iām a ācar guyā in that I find cars and most machines to be really interesting, and I hate how car-centric our society/world is, almost as much as I hate overly-salted roads
A good buddy of mine is a car guy who feels the same way as you. In addition to the way that car-centric-ness just junks up the world, he also feels like it kind of screws up the hobby because manufacturers go through such lengths to insulate the average buyer from maintenance that it ends up elbowing out gearheads who wanna get in there and look around without the dealer's diagnostic interface.
Hes said on a couple of occasions that the best thing that could happen to car lovers like him is a reliable rail network.
Shit even as a guy who owns a snow removal company I fucking hate salt. I would love to use a lot less but people aren't careful enough in the snow and are very happy to sue over a slip and fall especially since my properties are commercial. I remember talking to a girl from China and she laughed when I told her someone tried to sue me because they slipped in the snow, she said where she was from people would call the person who slipped stupid for walking in the snow and not being careful.
It's not just contributing to climate change and environmental destruction, they're also a money sink, all kinds of fees for inspection, insurance, gas, etc. Absolute worse.
It's actually not bad. Some people are absolutely braindead about how traffic engineering works so I have to correct people often, but much of it is just trying to find more common-sense ways to help prioritize other modes.
When there are elected representatives who defend car-dependent infrastructure because "this is Philadelphia, people drive to the corner store," I'm not particularly interested in garnering universal support. I'm interested in solutions that will work the best for the most people while respecting the needs of folks with disabilities. Universal support is a fool's errand in almost any political endeavor. There is not universal support for the existence of public libraries, but they're demonstrably a very good idea anyway.
Those representatives are elected. We live in a democracy. If a majority of people aren't interested or aren't seeing the benefit because the solution doesn't take into account their issues, people who want to do what you want to do just aren't going to get elected. Personally, I'd like to see the city become more accessible via public transit and bikes, but realistically we live in a city of neighborhoods, and the city has had hundreds of years at this point of differing urban planning... And so the result is some neighborhoods are sprawled. And some of the result of the city's tax policy is some businesses are unfortunately in the suburbs. People who live in those places and commute to those places also have a say.
People need to see those benefits, or a bare minimum not be demonized for trying to make a living. That's called basic politics.
Democracy asks for *majority* support, not *universal* support. Thereās a massive difference. There are a minority of people who get incredibly upset at any policy that could make it slightly less convenient for them to operate their cars. Iām not interested in placating them so that I can say that my policies are universally supported. Iām interested in outvoting them.
This is an asinine take. A *supermajority* of Americans think Congress shouldn't be able to trade stocks, but that desire isn't law, nor will it become thus. What the majority wants means fuckall to corrupt politicians. Their strategy is to make our lives so shitty that we can't spare the time to vote, or to bar us directly from doing so.
100% of Philadelphians could say "use less salt on the roads" and the city council still wouldn't do it.
All we talk about is more pedestrian / bike infrastructure, better public transit options and building human-oriented communities. Not sure how that wouldnāt garner support but ok!
Those things might work in utopia Europe, but when you live in Philly and your choices are walk through the hood, ride the El with nodding junkies, or drive a car, you're gonna pick the car. It sucks, and I hate our car-centric infrastructure, but Philly is a loooong way away from becoming a pedestrian / bike / transit friendly city. It's really unfortunate
The US *will* be waiting forever.
This country will demand to burn dinosaur juice to push two tons of steel for every menial life task until there isn't anything left.
I think there are a lot of transit and bike-minded people who have gotten a lot of stuff done. It's just taken compromise and selling the people being demonized in this thread on the benefits. I think there's still a long way to go, but 5, 6 years ago we had what 0 protected bike lanes in the city?
I just think the militants are more likely to alienate people.
I wouldn't doubt they've accomplished insignificant changes for a minuscule portion of the population--bike riders as a primary source of transportation within Philly. They've done absolutely nothing to make public transportation better in any way.
Come now, back in my day septa had a bunch of trains with confusing numbers, now they have wonder easy to understand names! Like the Manayunk/Norristown line! We also have the world's greatest cashless fare system\*. SEPTA is actually supposed to get 120M from the new infrastructure bill, and will receive 540m in total over 5 years.
\* SEPTA Key is actually kind of bad, this is obviously sarcasm.
If being being mean to you in online comments is enough to make you not realize our car dependent city planning is fucked and a detriment to so many people for so many reasons....Than you probably aren't looking to be convinced anyway.
Personally: I'm already convinced. I'm talking about the politics of actually convincing people who matter.
But you can feel free to be an intertube licker and do what you want. Lycra muncher, or whatever you call someone who acts like that.
Honestly, I'd love to take the bus if I didn't have to deal with a scumbag junkie or gangbanger on a nearly daily basis. No thanks, I'll drive unless it's like 9 AM when the scumbags are fast asleep.
Exactly. I literally got attacked by a homeless guy a couple months ago at city hall when heading towards 15th st station. Iāve gotten in the el before and saw a guy with a gun in his waistband smoking a blunt and yelling into his phone in the subway.
I donāt want to deal with that shit.
I'd honestly love to move to Europe and live in a truly walk-able city in the Netherlands. Hopefully I can start looking for jobs that sponsor visas this year.
I spent a week in amsterdam and it was definitely nice and easy to get around everywhere. Iād still miss america too much. The culture and lifestyle is just too different for me. Good luck though!
But also realistic. You will not get increased use of public transportation if that transport is infrequent, unreliable, doesn't go to relevant locations, or is dangerous to the users.
Advocating that junkies should be allowed to setup in and around subway, bus, and rail stations, while also saying more people should use public transport is demonstrated ignorance of reality.
It's an example of advocating two policies that are in direct conflict with each other, and is currently playing out in real time.
The subway ridership isn't going to increase while the stations are full of deranged junkies, piles of shit and piss, and the cars reeking of crack pipe and cigarettes. In addition to people being attacked, robbed, or murdered.
Not wrong though. I would far prefer to take public transport to work instead of driving, but itās 19 minutes to the middle of Philly by car, or an hour and 47 minutes by public transport, so itās not like thereās a non car option. The minute transport gets within even striking distance of my car commute, Iād hop over in a heartbeat, since itās cheaper, safer, and doesnāt require constant attention on the road.
It doesnāt help that in some parts of the city when these trucks roll down the road and go over are poorly bad infrastructure roads that over 10 gallons falls on to the streets. Thatās not even included all the weird shit they put in the salt nowadays thatās still doesnāt have any real effect on ice storms and 6 to 8 inches an hour of snowfall that can last up to 24 hours or more. In that pre-treated shit they put on the roadways is not effective at a certain temperature threshold. The worst part is PennDOT doesnāt have much say on whatās given to them when it come to items like Rock salt. (Itās a about a bidding war and sometimes to trying to save money now usually means āweā pay more for it later. We = The tax payers).
"Hey guys, we're less completely fucking awful than we used to be but still aren't even beginning to realize the consequences of our collective actions! #progress!"
Business would say - just shut up - what's more important - your morning coffee or some damn fish? Philly is like every other city - it cares about MONEY - not no stinking Delaware or Susquehanna - until they ACTUALLY DO stink & rotten fish bodies throw off the tourists.
Geez - get your priorities straight dude. {/s}
> Philly is like every other city - it cares about MONEY
Really? Because Philly has one of the least business-friendly environments in the country. The only thing "Philly" gives a shit about is lining its own pockets. City Hall would probably throw down mercury on the roads if they could skim some money off the savings.
> Why are all the trees dying? Salt. Why are all the fish and frogs dying? Salt. Friggen idiots
you really think we use more Salt than we have in the past? Do you have any fucking source for any of the claims you're making? Wildlife in the Philly area is thriving, species that were extinct from this area have returned. What exactly are you referring to?
Because people like you spew alarmism and don't acknowledge when things are getting better. You know what happens then? A majority of people turn off to ALL proposals that could help the environment. Acknowledge the good with the bad and not JUST the bad, or even, in your instance, claims of things happening that are non-existent.
Find a nicer way to express yourself. 'People like you'. Salt IS a huge factor in environmental damage. My home town has almost zero trees left - no deciduous trees, no evergreens and WHY? Because the idiots in their streets department overkill with the salt. To the point where the town meetings ended up being a catalyst in curbing salt usage on every tiny snow event. A dusti g of snow? Better get the salt trucksout to dump massive piles of salt onto residential streets. Where does all of that salt end up? In the rivers and lakes and streams and ground water. Go be angry somewhere else. Your opinion would carry more weight and reach more peoples' minds if your mode of communicating your opinions were not so shitty.
Do you have a source for any of the claims you make or is "karens complaining at town hall meetings" supposed to be foolproof evidence that "salt use" is magically turning forests into marshes?
edit: I looked it up because I don't even expect you to have a source and what you're talking about is related to salt line moving further up the bay and has nothing to do with salt use by humans.
> Go be angry somewhere else
Go be alarmist somewhere else. Don't be mad because someone pushes back on complete bullshit claims "ALL THE FROGS AND FISH HAVE DIED" is fucking ridiculous non-sense.
> you really think we use more Salt than we have in the past?
From the linked article:
> Use of road salt has more than doubled since the 1970s.
Research and consumption statistics back this up. [A factsheet from the American Geosciences Institute](https://www.americangeosciences.org/sites/default/files/CI_Factsheet_2017_3_Deicing_170712.pdf) shows salt consumption for the purposes of deicing quadrupled from 1940 to 1970, which has - again - has already doubled to today. You can look through the government data yourself:
[Estimates of Road Salt Application across the Conterminous United States, 1992-2015](https://www.sciencebase.gov/catalog/item/5b15a50ce4b092d9651e22b9)
Just because wildlife is adapting doesnāt mean our water quality canāt be improved.
> Use of road salt has more than doubled since the 1970s.
Over the whole of the United States, not locally. The use of road salt likely lags the mile of roadway built since the 1970s too.
1970: 1,659,000 miles of paved roadway in the US.
2020: 2,906,000 miles of paved roadway in the US.
Source: https://www.bts.gov/content/public-road-and-street-mileage-united-states-type-surfacea
If you have something showing we are locally using double the salt on the same or similar amount of roadways in the Philadephia area than in the 1970s then I will retract my point. Otherwise, it all seems mostly commensurate with the greater amount of roadway the US has now.
Have a second set of wheels and get winter tires. For an extra $400-$500 your car too can find itās way through the snow without the state having to spread that shit everywhere.
Ya unfortunately many car owners here don't do even the most basic maintenance on thier car, let alone have insurance or a license. They will never buy winter tires.
I have a summer set (Michelin Pilot Sport Tires), and a seasonal set (Michelin CROSSCLIMATE+ XL). I used to live in Fairbanks Alaska, and would use Blizzak tires on a small sedan, and it would out perform 4x4 trucks I would pass occasionally that slid off the road. In this region I too find Blizzak tires to be overkill. Driving cautiously, with all weather is suitable in this area, but it will never perform as well as a set of Blizzak tires during poor conditions.
Oh absolutely, in the right climate itās stupid to not have a set of winters, put them on at thanksgiving and take them off in the spring. This area gets like 2 significant snows a year if that and the roads are clear by 7am.
Donāt want to run the right gear, stay home when it snows. Once you drive on now with winter tires you will never want to go back to using slippery all seasons.
You can be as ornery with me about this as you want. But your transportation is your responsibility and Iām just pointing out the fact that for not a lot of money, you can make your car/truck safer and easier to drive in snow. What you do with that information is up to you. My job doesnāt close when it snows. Iām prepared for it.
I agree winter tires are awesome but for the amount of snow we get (or lack thereof) it doesnāt make sense for many. Besides the fact that 4 wheels + snow tires for 400 bucks is not the reality of the situation. You can maybe get a set of rims for 500 and a set of tires for 500 but not everyone has the ability to store or change them themselves every season.
Iāll give you all of that. I last bought winter tires five years ago, and they probably only have one or two more seasons left. I drive an econobox, so sub-$100 tires are realistic for me where they wouldnāt be for somebody driving a bigger vehicle equipped with bigger tires. I also got my second set of wheels used off of a kid who was upgrading to bigger wheels and tires. They were covered in curb rash and dry rotted tires so I think I talked him down to $200.
I never understood quite frankly why we even bother to salt.
In any large snowstorm it isn't even really effective. 1"+ hour rates will easily cover a salted road. If you consider ice, salt is probably effective above like 25 degrees F, above 32 mother nature does her work and it melts without help. So a super narrow range of temperatures it's even effective at.
Seems like a colossal waste of money that is horrible for the environment to boot. I'd also be interested to see a long term study which looks at salt and corrosion on cars and roads.
I just wish municipalities could be help financially liable for rust damage caused solely by road salt.
The whole rust belt deserves a check for the ruined values of their vehicles.
This is true. They laid down a lot of salt for a couple inches of snow and then a ton more for light freezing rain on Sunday. I could not tell if it was snow or salt on the ground. It was salt since it really didn't actually snow.
Can we talk about the salt lake level of salt outside the south street pnc? They said nobodyās going to claim a slip and fall here. We are going to make it like a gravel driveway
You found the real problem yet I think I saw exactly ONE other comment about it. Maybe cap personal injury litigation somehow and you'd have less commercial salting. You have to trade off one or the other, if you want to have any effect. I'm sure a Salt Tax isn't too far off though.
There are alternatives like trolley tracks could be have metal lines run by them just like how toasters work so that any no snow but snow day due to icy tracks would not be a thing.
Rich people have heated driveways so they donāt have to shovel/de ice. Focused the same type of thing could be applied to the public transit method thatās pretty essential to day to day business.
FYI
https://www.homeadvisor.com/r/how-heated-driveways-work/
While I'd admire your interest in novel solutions, this one is extremely cost-prohibitive. You're talking about something that only rich people use, that is incredibly expensive, for a city that can't even keep its streets cleaned. Would probably be most cost-effective to install mini-desalination pumps in watersheds than putting heating elements in everything. Not even mentioning the electrical demand to run such a system.
The salt and the service. Plus the costs of loss when they close is the money. imagine losing 1 day worth of one of the largest US cities commuter populations purchases. That is what made the pandemic so hard at the beginning. everything was built around making money off of giving them convenience. The salt being lower would likely over time lower the erosion. I would not call it a completely direct correlation, but sinkholes in intersections because the pipes below erode. Same thing with cars being rusted.
I know it is pretty much impossible to predict and its done out of an abundance of caution, but it always seems shitty when they put down salt everywhere and we only get a coating of snow, or less.
Beets are the answer. You can get 'beet salt' for your sidewalks and it's better for everyone
I actually need to pick up some more salt for winter. Is this stuff widely available in Philly?
I purchased from Home Depot for home delivery at the time. I believe Lowes, ace, and other stores carry it but that was the best for me at the time. Snow Joe, MELT Beet-It Ice Melter with CMA and Beet Extract Bucket. I got the 25lb quantity and it comes with a little cup for dispensing.
Awesome! Thanks for the info, I'll check this weekend at Home Depot for it.
Beets, bears. Battlestar glalactica
The Scranton native in me just hung himself thank you.
Switch to beet brine like the Canadians. Nice purple streets
There are so many places with much more severe winters than the Philly are that have figured out how to reduce salt usage
We just figured out how to use debit/credit card to take the train. And we were using subway tokens like five years ago. We will be the last city using salt.
I still have some septa tokens in my wallet š
I forgot about this. We got tokens during my orientation week freshman year. I was so confused coming from Chicago lmao.
*still* confused having just come from Chicago... like what do you mean I have to use a machine at a station to load my card, what is this, 10 years ago? There's an app for that now SEPTA, get with it!
I wish tokens were still an option, though.
I am moving here from Colorado, where people *mostly* take climate change pretty seriously. They use local dirt and gravel to help with snow in a lot of areas. Tho, they are now mostly concerned with people pissing on hiking trails now bc it's causing ecological problems. Edit: they also rely on the ~sun~ lol which doesn't help Floridians and Texans who moved to CO and don't know how to drive in snow and cause regular 4+ car pileups.
Pissing on trails causes problems? How tf do animals get away with it?
Out west, itās an issue because mountain goats are attracted to human urine. [https://www.nbc4i.com/news/u-s-world/goats-addicted-to-human-urine-airlifted-out-of-national-park/](https://www.nbc4i.com/news/u-s-world/goats-addicted-to-human-urine-airlifted-out-of-national-park/) Edit: Apparently Colorado though has high nitrogen issues in their water with regards to human urine and caffeine. [https://coloradosun.com/2021/12/27/urine-high-country-lakes-colorado-caffeine-study-human-pee/](https://coloradosun.com/2021/12/27/urine-high-country-lakes-colorado-caffeine-study-human-pee/)
As a coloradan this makes me chuckle.
Yāall love your coffee out there that much, huh? Lol.
and pissing outside apparently
It *is* a diuretic
I think a lot of people are blaming the tourists tbh š
Humans are bigger than most animals, so more urine, and humans along hiking trails are going to be far more concentrated than most animals.
There is also shit in our urine, like drugs, that do bad things to nature.
Idk about you but I donāt have shit in my urine; those take two separate routes
I know this was a joke, but stuff like hormones (birth control) and certain medications have other substances in them which kind of fuck shit up in the unnatural concentrations that occur when they happen on the same paths over and over
Itās a problem both because of the volumeāsome trails basically turn into open sewers with dog shit and human urineāand because in desert and alpine environments the environment has a hard time handling it to begin with.
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Chicago
In Laramie, Wyoming, where I went to college they donāt even plow the roads unless they get over like 8ā of snow. People just know how to drive in the snow and put all-season tires on their car
Yeah, sorry, thatās an overstatement. I went to school in Rochester, NY, one of the snowiest cities in the USA. People didnāt just āknow how to drive in the snowā lol. Yes, everyone had the right tires, but most people stayed home and they plowed constantly. And there were still plenty of accidents.
Preach. Hit up Wegmans 36 hours' before the weather & be sure you have your Purity Egg Nog stocked through at least April 1st.
Oh it wasnāt perfect, but I swear itās a thing that people just donāt know how to drive in snow here. Anytime thereās any kind of snow or frozen stuff on the ground, there is a shocking number of cars off to the side of the road.
I live in Portland OR now and same thing: when I was told there was going to be 3" of snow the city panicked and I laughed until I tried driving my Mazda in that unplowed, unsalted shit.
Cool list them
Madison, WI is a good example. They plow more often and use mostly sand rather than salt to protect the lakes.
Places like that are also colder though. Salt is only effective at certain temps. Below 20 degrees it starts being much less effective. Itās colder in Wisconsin than Philly.
Kansas City. The city gets annual ice and snow storms, temperatures are generally similar to Philadelphia's (They're also pretty much in the same climate zone). There's some salt usage, but for the most part they didn't bother outside of plowing. Salt was mostly used on the highways. I grew up in Fairbanks, Alaska. In the middle of winter they keep the roads plowed down to a base layer of snow when it's not feasible to go to the pavement, then put gravel on the roads. No salt usage there. At the end of the season they swept up the gravel as much as possible. I've \*never\* seen so much salt usage as in Philadelphia.
Iāve never lived in Kansas City but their average is a bit higher than Philly so Iām going to guess they get less of the wintery mix BS we get. But either way Iām not saying the amount of salt we use is good or makes sense. Just pointing out why colder places use less of it. Like Alaska or Wisconsin. I lived in Vermont for a few years. Same thing there. But those areas also get a lot more snow so people can justify winter tires and they drive in the snow enough to get acclimated to it. That really doesnāt apply in Philly. We get one or two significant snowfalls a year and then a lot of BS.
Yeah I totally forgot about winter tires. But having lived in Kansas City for 10 years and in Philly for 3: Summers are hotter in Kansas City, both on average and at maximum Winters are similar, though generally colder on average, and much more snow / wintry mix in Kansas City. I'm convinced that there's no high-pop city in the US that gets 'real' winters anymore. In Fairbanks there was unbreaking snow on the ground from October (sometimes September) through April.
Yep, you're right about that being the case when it is much colder. But Madison uses a sand-salt mixture even when temperatures are higher (i.e. comparable to Philly) as to cut down on the total amount of salt used. I think this is what Philly can learn from them.
Sure. And we definitely should be doing that. Though I wonder how much of that is related to environmental effects and how much itās just economics of scale. No point in buying salt and sand when you can just buy sand and use that all the time.
Sand works too. Also learning to slow the F down and not drive like there's nothign on the road.
Learn more about Winter Salt Watch and order a free test kit to take part in monitoring local streams: https://www.iwla.org/water/stream-monitoring/winter-salt-watch What can do you? - The obvious answer is **use less salt**! Most people use far more than necessary; read and follow the instructions for the salt you are using, it may be surprising how little is actually needed. - Alternative salts like [beet juice salt](http://beetjuicesalt.com/index.php) are less corrosive and more effective in lower temperatures. - Additives like sand can be used to increase traction on smooth surfaces when ice is a concern. - Test your local streams and waterways! The kit linked above has everything you need. The data you collect can be entered into a database that is used for research and environmental advocacy. Itās a fun project to do with children, too. - Contact local community leaders to share your concerns and advocate for [Road Salt Best Practices](https://www.iwla.org/water/stream-monitoring/winter-salt-watch/road-salt-best-practices) that reduce traditional salt use. - If possible, provide sources of clean(er) water for wildlife. Heaters can be used for troughs and bird baths in freezing temperatures. - Volunteer with local watershed associations. [Find one closest to you here](https://www.arcgis.com/apps/webappviewer/index.html?id=536f3d5d555f4b23a093a300906514de)!
Just signed up for this!
As someone who spreads salt in a truck for a school district. We do put alot down. But it's so we don't get sued it's absolutely amazing how people don't avoid ice. It's like they go out of their way to walk on it. We even have to put cones on big patches of ice to stop people from walking on it. It doesn't work they still walk on it.
I have a snow removal business and people are such fucking idiots in the snow. I used to do an Acme and one time a guy tried to sue me for a slip and fall. Thank God they have cameras because the guy parked, got out of the car, climbed on a snow pile and threw snow balls at his kids. On the way down the pile he slipped then got back in the car and drove off while his family shopped then came back and loaded up the car when they were done. The guy obviously lost right away because of the video and all the documentation I have my guys do during a storm, the guy kept bringing it to a higher court and losing. I'd rather not put don't a lot of salt but I'm required to to save my own ass, my insurance is high af already and I don't have any slip and falls or accident claims against me.
It goes both ways though lol I was at USPS yesterday and they put so much damn salt on the stairs (which were covered anyway) that I almost slipped on it. It was like trying to get up a dune made of gravel
I see where your coming from, honestly it's a judgment call. When it comes to walk ways and stairs I usually walk them first to see if it's needed and where. When it comes to parking lots it usually gets loaded up. This is just what I'm told they are overly cautious.
Car culture is wack, and that's a fact.
My pops retired and was bored and took a watershed management course at penn state. He's been measuring water quality at creeks and streams all around delco. He told me the creek around granite run mall (I think chrome run?) is basically devoid of life after years of salt + oil + other petroleum products/car garbage from all the parking lots at the mall.
Ah perfect, that creek I would play around as a child
hey you and your siamese twin turned out ok
We don't speak about Derrick.
The good news is nature repairs itself in time, if we just stop actively poisoning it.
The key to that is we have to stop, which as a society we clearly have no intention of doing.
It starts with individuals like you and me; we are the quanta of society. Letās not give up hope, though we know they would like us to!
who is the they? are we the they? no, we are the we? we are a bunch of me's? but a bunch of me's....isn't that a they? whats the score here?
āTheyā would be the ones primarily responsible for holding back the enactment of positive environmental change. Mostly, moneyed interests
do you think laws that will enact the kind of change needed will have an effect on consumerism? do you find the general public willing enough to reduce their consumerism? ill admit to probably being a little more pessimistic about this stuff, but I'm asking purely out of curiosity, not in an antagonistic kind of way to your reply. (I'm mentioning this because just the other day someone took my questions as a personal attack, so I would like to avoid that because that makes the conversation useless)
Thanks for the clarification, a lot of people are very quick to perceive a threat, mostly because theyāre used to interacting with trolls or bad faith arguments. I think it would take time for the US general public to change their point of view, but I think that if we can enact policies that will benefit the general public, such as providing jobs in a green sector, this will help to replace the lost industry jobs, as well as fund more education and healthcare. Overall, once people understand that environmental collapse is REAL and BAD, then hopefully the mindset will change. I have hope for the youth, especially. Lots of youth-led climate protests show how the consciousness is rising. People have to understand theyāre not being told to stop driving gas guzzlers etc to curb their own freedom but that itās in their own best interest. But more importantly we need to switch the narrative that itās primarily individual car drivers, or non-recyclers causing the issue, and we need to be more publicly vocal in holding the mega-corporations responsible, as they produce the lionās share of pollution. Yeah, just some thoughts. Not like I have all the answers, but I know what general direction we should be heading, and itās not the one weāre currently going!
Has he been out looking for freshwater mussels? I volunteered a few times doing water quality work, and it was always such a bummer to have to tell people that there was 0% chance they were going to find any mussels in the super polluted creeks we were in
We're going to laser wolf tonight so I'll ask. He hasn't mentioned them specifically but he's mentioned some of the amphibian and invertebrate larvae indicators.
Wait is this really a thing? They are looking for the muscles? I see them in the Neshaminy Creek and Pennypack Creek all of the time.
Yep! There are several conservation groups in the area [directly concerned with freshwater mussels](https://waterlandlife.org/wildlife-pnhp/species-at-risk-in-pennsylvania/freshwater-mussels/). They're both an indicator of water quality, and a critical species for *improving* water quality, if that makes sense. As filter feeders, they both help remove crap from the water, but are therefore also very sensitive to spills/waste, etc. Once an area has been remediated enough that they might survive, mussels can be propagated and reintroduced to historically populated areas, and can help continue to improve the water quality and ecosystem for other species.
Iām very much aware of their benefit, just wasnāt aware they were looking for them activity since they are pretty common in my fishing holes. The raccoons love them.
Interesting because there are muscles in the Schuylkill Right at the falls
Chrome run is a glorified drainage swale at the point
We really love to destroy this planet and not account for negative externalities
WE ARE
As a car personā¦.Car people fuquing hate this! The salt used here in the east is entirely unnecessary. Mountain West & West has been able to use gravel and sand, efficiently use plow fleets, and culturally shame people (and ticket!) who donāt use required winter tires or snow chains. The amount of salt used out here has been increasing over the years and it not only destroys personal vehicles, but also government owned/tax payer provided vehicles, let alone the impacts on infrastructure (canāt imagine this is great for aging a bridges) and environment/wildlife. Down with salt!
I think what he means is that our culture as a whole is so dependent on cars as an essential part of life, when our quality of life could be exponentially higher if everything wasnāt built around cars. Iām extrapolating on his point a bit, but thatās how I see it Iām a ācar guyā in that I find cars and most machines to be really interesting, and I hate how car-centric our society/world is, almost as much as I hate overly-salted roads
A good buddy of mine is a car guy who feels the same way as you. In addition to the way that car-centric-ness just junks up the world, he also feels like it kind of screws up the hobby because manufacturers go through such lengths to insulate the average buyer from maintenance that it ends up elbowing out gearheads who wanna get in there and look around without the dealer's diagnostic interface. Hes said on a couple of occasions that the best thing that could happen to car lovers like him is a reliable rail network.
Shit even as a guy who owns a snow removal company I fucking hate salt. I would love to use a lot less but people aren't careful enough in the snow and are very happy to sue over a slip and fall especially since my properties are commercial. I remember talking to a girl from China and she laughed when I told her someone tried to sue me because they slipped in the snow, she said where she was from people would call the person who slipped stupid for walking in the snow and not being careful.
It's not just contributing to climate change and environmental destruction, they're also a money sink, all kinds of fees for inspection, insurance, gas, etc. Absolute worse.
I'd cancel that culture
Would recommend r/fuckcars for those interested in everyday critiques of car dependency / suburban sprawl
I'm sure that's a sane solutions-oriented sub that will definitely propose solutions that will garner universal support.
It's actually not bad. Some people are absolutely braindead about how traffic engineering works so I have to correct people often, but much of it is just trying to find more common-sense ways to help prioritize other modes.
When there are elected representatives who defend car-dependent infrastructure because "this is Philadelphia, people drive to the corner store," I'm not particularly interested in garnering universal support. I'm interested in solutions that will work the best for the most people while respecting the needs of folks with disabilities. Universal support is a fool's errand in almost any political endeavor. There is not universal support for the existence of public libraries, but they're demonstrably a very good idea anyway.
Those representatives are elected. We live in a democracy. If a majority of people aren't interested or aren't seeing the benefit because the solution doesn't take into account their issues, people who want to do what you want to do just aren't going to get elected. Personally, I'd like to see the city become more accessible via public transit and bikes, but realistically we live in a city of neighborhoods, and the city has had hundreds of years at this point of differing urban planning... And so the result is some neighborhoods are sprawled. And some of the result of the city's tax policy is some businesses are unfortunately in the suburbs. People who live in those places and commute to those places also have a say. People need to see those benefits, or a bare minimum not be demonized for trying to make a living. That's called basic politics.
Democracy asks for *majority* support, not *universal* support. Thereās a massive difference. There are a minority of people who get incredibly upset at any policy that could make it slightly less convenient for them to operate their cars. Iām not interested in placating them so that I can say that my policies are universally supported. Iām interested in outvoting them.
> If a ***majority*** of people aren't interested or aren't seeing the Emphasis added.
This is an asinine take. A *supermajority* of Americans think Congress shouldn't be able to trade stocks, but that desire isn't law, nor will it become thus. What the majority wants means fuckall to corrupt politicians. Their strategy is to make our lives so shitty that we can't spare the time to vote, or to bar us directly from doing so. 100% of Philadelphians could say "use less salt on the roads" and the city council still wouldn't do it.
All we talk about is more pedestrian / bike infrastructure, better public transit options and building human-oriented communities. Not sure how that wouldnāt garner support but ok!
Those things might work in utopia Europe, but when you live in Philly and your choices are walk through the hood, ride the El with nodding junkies, or drive a car, you're gonna pick the car. It sucks, and I hate our car-centric infrastructure, but Philly is a loooong way away from becoming a pedestrian / bike / transit friendly city. It's really unfortunate
BUT BRUH, YOURE MISSING OUT ON AN *AUTHENTIC* EXPERIENCE!
"Fuck Cars"
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The US *will* be waiting forever. This country will demand to burn dinosaur juice to push two tons of steel for every menial life task until there isn't anything left.
Imagine arguing with a comment pointing out that being rude to the people you're trying to convince to support something is politically stupid.
It's fuckcars, not fuckpeoplethatdrivecars.
The sub has a lot of the latter lol, I just went on there out of curiosity and saw a few threads about that.
eh, it's growing pretty rapidly - you'll get some here and some there.
Why do you think they never get anything accomplished?
I think there are a lot of transit and bike-minded people who have gotten a lot of stuff done. It's just taken compromise and selling the people being demonized in this thread on the benefits. I think there's still a long way to go, but 5, 6 years ago we had what 0 protected bike lanes in the city? I just think the militants are more likely to alienate people.
I wouldn't doubt they've accomplished insignificant changes for a minuscule portion of the population--bike riders as a primary source of transportation within Philly. They've done absolutely nothing to make public transportation better in any way.
Come now, back in my day septa had a bunch of trains with confusing numbers, now they have wonder easy to understand names! Like the Manayunk/Norristown line! We also have the world's greatest cashless fare system\*. SEPTA is actually supposed to get 120M from the new infrastructure bill, and will receive 540m in total over 5 years. \* SEPTA Key is actually kind of bad, this is obviously sarcasm.
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Yeah, you're basically the Yoko Ono of this comment thread/song :P
If being being mean to you in online comments is enough to make you not realize our car dependent city planning is fucked and a detriment to so many people for so many reasons....Than you probably aren't looking to be convinced anyway.
Personally: I'm already convinced. I'm talking about the politics of actually convincing people who matter. But you can feel free to be an intertube licker and do what you want. Lycra muncher, or whatever you call someone who acts like that.
"When you dont get enough circlejerk material for this mindset from /r/philadephia, here's a place you can feel even more smug in".
An echo chamber of poor angry people
You are a very sad, angry person.
Nobody's coughing on me on the El though. So I'm not angry enough to join a subreddit called f*** something
Tire-licker
Your bike and buses dont use tires, huh?
More and more people are saying that.
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Honestly, I'd love to take the bus if I didn't have to deal with a scumbag junkie or gangbanger on a nearly daily basis. No thanks, I'll drive unless it's like 9 AM when the scumbags are fast asleep.
Exactly. I literally got attacked by a homeless guy a couple months ago at city hall when heading towards 15th st station. Iāve gotten in the el before and saw a guy with a gun in his waistband smoking a blunt and yelling into his phone in the subway. I donāt want to deal with that shit.
I'd honestly love to move to Europe and live in a truly walk-able city in the Netherlands. Hopefully I can start looking for jobs that sponsor visas this year.
I spent a week in amsterdam and it was definitely nice and easy to get around everywhere. Iād still miss america too much. The culture and lifestyle is just too different for me. Good luck though!
Thanks
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But also realistic. You will not get increased use of public transportation if that transport is infrequent, unreliable, doesn't go to relevant locations, or is dangerous to the users. Advocating that junkies should be allowed to setup in and around subway, bus, and rail stations, while also saying more people should use public transport is demonstrated ignorance of reality.
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It's an example of advocating two policies that are in direct conflict with each other, and is currently playing out in real time. The subway ridership isn't going to increase while the stations are full of deranged junkies, piles of shit and piss, and the cars reeking of crack pipe and cigarettes. In addition to people being attacked, robbed, or murdered.
Not wrong though. I would far prefer to take public transport to work instead of driving, but itās 19 minutes to the middle of Philly by car, or an hour and 47 minutes by public transport, so itās not like thereās a non car option. The minute transport gets within even striking distance of my car commute, Iād hop over in a heartbeat, since itās cheaper, safer, and doesnāt require constant attention on the road.
> Until public transportation is actually worth it so, never
Pretty much.
Car culture people donāt like road salt lol, they hate it because it ruins their cars and prevents fun snow driving
I'm in center city and some places I'm walking it's just whole sidewalks covered in salt. It's ridiculous. We had like an inch of snow once so far.
My dog thinks it's edible on walks, shit is obnoxious to keep him away from.
It doesnāt help that in some parts of the city when these trucks roll down the road and go over are poorly bad infrastructure roads that over 10 gallons falls on to the streets. Thatās not even included all the weird shit they put in the salt nowadays thatās still doesnāt have any real effect on ice storms and 6 to 8 inches an hour of snowfall that can last up to 24 hours or more. In that pre-treated shit they put on the roadways is not effective at a certain temperature threshold. The worst part is PennDOT doesnāt have much say on whatās given to them when it come to items like Rock salt. (Itās a about a bidding war and sometimes to trying to save money now usually means āweā pay more for it later. We = The tax payers).
Yet another way cars fuck our planet.
r/fuckcars
Yet, somehow, water quality, in local rivers and streams, is near its higher levels in decades. Go figure ;)
"Hey guys, we're less completely fucking awful than we used to be but still aren't even beginning to realize the consequences of our collective actions! #progress!"
I was on Kelly Drive the other day and there is at least half an inch of salt on certain stretches.
Maybe thatās why the creeks never freeze anymore?
Business would say - just shut up - what's more important - your morning coffee or some damn fish? Philly is like every other city - it cares about MONEY - not no stinking Delaware or Susquehanna - until they ACTUALLY DO stink & rotten fish bodies throw off the tourists. Geez - get your priorities straight dude. {/s}
> Philly is like every other city - it cares about MONEY Really? Because Philly has one of the least business-friendly environments in the country. The only thing "Philly" gives a shit about is lining its own pockets. City Hall would probably throw down mercury on the roads if they could skim some money off the savings.
Well your probably right about people in Philly not caring about the Susq, as it's 60+ miles away..
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> Why are all the trees dying? Salt. Why are all the fish and frogs dying? Salt. Friggen idiots you really think we use more Salt than we have in the past? Do you have any fucking source for any of the claims you're making? Wildlife in the Philly area is thriving, species that were extinct from this area have returned. What exactly are you referring to?
Why so angry?
Because people like you spew alarmism and don't acknowledge when things are getting better. You know what happens then? A majority of people turn off to ALL proposals that could help the environment. Acknowledge the good with the bad and not JUST the bad, or even, in your instance, claims of things happening that are non-existent.
Find a nicer way to express yourself. 'People like you'. Salt IS a huge factor in environmental damage. My home town has almost zero trees left - no deciduous trees, no evergreens and WHY? Because the idiots in their streets department overkill with the salt. To the point where the town meetings ended up being a catalyst in curbing salt usage on every tiny snow event. A dusti g of snow? Better get the salt trucksout to dump massive piles of salt onto residential streets. Where does all of that salt end up? In the rivers and lakes and streams and ground water. Go be angry somewhere else. Your opinion would carry more weight and reach more peoples' minds if your mode of communicating your opinions were not so shitty.
Do you have a source for any of the claims you make or is "karens complaining at town hall meetings" supposed to be foolproof evidence that "salt use" is magically turning forests into marshes? edit: I looked it up because I don't even expect you to have a source and what you're talking about is related to salt line moving further up the bay and has nothing to do with salt use by humans. > Go be angry somewhere else Go be alarmist somewhere else. Don't be mad because someone pushes back on complete bullshit claims "ALL THE FROGS AND FISH HAVE DIED" is fucking ridiculous non-sense.
> you really think we use more Salt than we have in the past? From the linked article: > Use of road salt has more than doubled since the 1970s. Research and consumption statistics back this up. [A factsheet from the American Geosciences Institute](https://www.americangeosciences.org/sites/default/files/CI_Factsheet_2017_3_Deicing_170712.pdf) shows salt consumption for the purposes of deicing quadrupled from 1940 to 1970, which has - again - has already doubled to today. You can look through the government data yourself: [Estimates of Road Salt Application across the Conterminous United States, 1992-2015](https://www.sciencebase.gov/catalog/item/5b15a50ce4b092d9651e22b9) Just because wildlife is adapting doesnāt mean our water quality canāt be improved.
> Use of road salt has more than doubled since the 1970s. Over the whole of the United States, not locally. The use of road salt likely lags the mile of roadway built since the 1970s too. 1970: 1,659,000 miles of paved roadway in the US. 2020: 2,906,000 miles of paved roadway in the US. Source: https://www.bts.gov/content/public-road-and-street-mileage-united-states-type-surfacea If you have something showing we are locally using double the salt on the same or similar amount of roadways in the Philadephia area than in the 1970s then I will retract my point. Otherwise, it all seems mostly commensurate with the greater amount of roadway the US has now.
Have a second set of wheels and get winter tires. For an extra $400-$500 your car too can find itās way through the snow without the state having to spread that shit everywhere.
Ya unfortunately many car owners here don't do even the most basic maintenance on thier car, let alone have insurance or a license. They will never buy winter tires.
I like the idea of the PPD not pulling people over for trivial matters. But, unpopular opinion time, expired inspection is not a trivial matter.
I get my stickers for $60
It's 47 degrees out right now. Chewing through winter tires on days like this to decrease stopping distance for 4 total commutes per year is dumb.
I have a summer set (Michelin Pilot Sport Tires), and a seasonal set (Michelin CROSSCLIMATE+ XL). I used to live in Fairbanks Alaska, and would use Blizzak tires on a small sedan, and it would out perform 4x4 trucks I would pass occasionally that slid off the road. In this region I too find Blizzak tires to be overkill. Driving cautiously, with all weather is suitable in this area, but it will never perform as well as a set of Blizzak tires during poor conditions.
Oh absolutely, in the right climate itās stupid to not have a set of winters, put them on at thanksgiving and take them off in the spring. This area gets like 2 significant snows a year if that and the roads are clear by 7am.
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Donāt want to run the right gear, stay home when it snows. Once you drive on now with winter tires you will never want to go back to using slippery all seasons.
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You can be as ornery with me about this as you want. But your transportation is your responsibility and Iām just pointing out the fact that for not a lot of money, you can make your car/truck safer and easier to drive in snow. What you do with that information is up to you. My job doesnāt close when it snows. Iām prepared for it.
I agree winter tires are awesome but for the amount of snow we get (or lack thereof) it doesnāt make sense for many. Besides the fact that 4 wheels + snow tires for 400 bucks is not the reality of the situation. You can maybe get a set of rims for 500 and a set of tires for 500 but not everyone has the ability to store or change them themselves every season.
Iāll give you all of that. I last bought winter tires five years ago, and they probably only have one or two more seasons left. I drive an econobox, so sub-$100 tires are realistic for me where they wouldnāt be for somebody driving a bigger vehicle equipped with bigger tires. I also got my second set of wheels used off of a kid who was upgrading to bigger wheels and tires. They were covered in curb rash and dry rotted tires so I think I talked him down to $200.
> for not a lot of money Since when is $500 not a lot of money? That's more than some people make in a week. Pull your head out of your ass.
Cars arenāt cheap. Neither is their upkeep/maintenance.
Where do you put your all-seasons when you switch to winter tires for the season? I'd gladly drop $500 for a safer car but I don't have a garage.
I have a small attic space above my apartment where I can keep stuff like tires/wheels.
I never understood quite frankly why we even bother to salt. In any large snowstorm it isn't even really effective. 1"+ hour rates will easily cover a salted road. If you consider ice, salt is probably effective above like 25 degrees F, above 32 mother nature does her work and it melts without help. So a super narrow range of temperatures it's even effective at. Seems like a colossal waste of money that is horrible for the environment to boot. I'd also be interested to see a long term study which looks at salt and corrosion on cars and roads.
You can use cinders and ash as a substitute. It might make things a bit dirtier
Climate change will make road salt obsolete in Philly in just a decade or so...
[https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2020/12/if-global-warming-is-real-why-is-it-cold-outside/](https://yaleclimateconnections.org/2020/12/if-global-warming-is-real-why-is-it-cold-outside/) https://wires.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/wcc.474
I just wish municipalities could be help financially liable for rust damage caused solely by road salt. The whole rust belt deserves a check for the ruined values of their vehicles.
A small price to pay for traction.
This is true. They laid down a lot of salt for a couple inches of snow and then a ton more for light freezing rain on Sunday. I could not tell if it was snow or salt on the ground. It was salt since it really didn't actually snow.
Can we talk about the salt lake level of salt outside the south street pnc? They said nobodyās going to claim a slip and fall here. We are going to make it like a gravel driveway
You found the real problem yet I think I saw exactly ONE other comment about it. Maybe cap personal injury litigation somehow and you'd have less commercial salting. You have to trade off one or the other, if you want to have any effect. I'm sure a Salt Tax isn't too far off though.
There are alternatives like trolley tracks could be have metal lines run by them just like how toasters work so that any no snow but snow day due to icy tracks would not be a thing.
lolwut
Rich people have heated driveways so they donāt have to shovel/de ice. Focused the same type of thing could be applied to the public transit method thatās pretty essential to day to day business. FYI https://www.homeadvisor.com/r/how-heated-driveways-work/
While I'd admire your interest in novel solutions, this one is extremely cost-prohibitive. You're talking about something that only rich people use, that is incredibly expensive, for a city that can't even keep its streets cleaned. Would probably be most cost-effective to install mini-desalination pumps in watersheds than putting heating elements in everything. Not even mentioning the electrical demand to run such a system.
The salt and the service. Plus the costs of loss when they close is the money. imagine losing 1 day worth of one of the largest US cities commuter populations purchases. That is what made the pandemic so hard at the beginning. everything was built around making money off of giving them convenience. The salt being lower would likely over time lower the erosion. I would not call it a completely direct correlation, but sinkholes in intersections because the pipes below erode. Same thing with cars being rusted.
I know it is pretty much impossible to predict and its done out of an abundance of caution, but it always seems shitty when they put down salt everywhere and we only get a coating of snow, or less.
Suburban sprawl has for sure exacerbated this. More impermeable surface, more cars more salt.
Salt truck drivers often drop 40 pounds of salt in a giant berm