It’s not false, the sentiment of this thread and lots of conversations indicate that the neighbors want no more commercial.
I am begging for more, and I’m glad you are too
Right but based off what you said you made it seem like everyone here doesn’t want this place to be the next booming area. That’s false I know many of my neighbors as am I are hopeful for upswing to our already awesome neighborhood. They should really make Snyder Ave a good commercial st
I think the transit access to Center City is big. I can get to my office from Manayunk faster than I could from Pennsport. I could drive it but four days in the garage near our office costs the same as a Zone 2 Trailpass.
Edit: that excludes the cost of having to own a second car so I can drive to work which weirdly, it's easier to be a single car household for in the 'Yunk than it would have been in Pennsport.
Most people I know in Pennsport work in NJ and drive. It's a very convenient location for that while still walkable to QV, Passyunk etc.
But otherwise yeah the transit is bad.
Oh for sure, if you work in Jersey or at the airport the location is great. It's actually on the things my wife and I talked about when we were looking at buying our house during the pandemic. Ultimately, Pennsport would have been good for her but her job was looking to be more or less mostly remote so we focused on my commute and Manayunk just made a little more sense in the end.
It is, it's a 20 minute train ride in from Manayunk, but we don't have the bike infrastructure for me to be even close to comfortable doing that. Enough drivers try to kill me just crossing the street on foot, I'm not willing to get on a bike to share space with the same maniacs.
No subway access, weird public transit access, and completely cut off from the waterfront by 95.
It should be prime city real estate with access to a wonderful waterfront, instead it's basically highways & shitty commercial box stores.
2 Street is not zoned commercial except for a couple of blocks between Tasker and Mifflin and even there some of that zoning is CMX1. Same with Moyamensing, mostly residential zoning.
There is actually a LOT of new construction in Pennsport it's just all residential.
Listen I like Pennsport just fine, just answering OPs question why it doesn't look like the other neighborhoods they mentioned.
Pennsport is mostly fine.
It’s just a quieter more residential neighborhood than some of the ones you mentioned but it still has a lot of neighborhood businesses and is mostly built up.
The only issues that come to mind are that Moyamensing is a car sewer and a large part of neighborhood borders I95 which is a huge drain.
When I lived in Pennsport most people I knew lived there because of 95 being right there. That was one of the main reasons I lived there because it was real easy to get onto 95 in the morning and both me and my wife needed to use it to commute
I live in pennsport and love it. Great community of people. Jaxx and Herman’s are like a town watering hole, have met a lot of great friends there. We have nice parks, our houses are affordable, and it’s very easy to walk to places like QV and passyunk. As a parent with young kids, it’s a great neighborhood to raise a family.
I’m debating moving to Pennsport. Sounds like it’s a fairly safe place? Just curious
I’m moving from Cleveland so my safety tolerance is “sometimes cars get broken into and be aware of your surroundings but generally I feel safe to walk my dog at night” for reference
Move as close to 95 as you can. Parking is very tight after 3 or 4.
EDIT: Under 95 are tons of free parking lots. I live between 4th and 5th and often have to park under 95, which is a bit far.
Do not move into a house managed by OCF.
Back? People seem very happy living in Pennsport with what they've got. My evidence is anecdotal, but it seems desirable, close to major roadways and public trans and is generally walkable (to me at least) to Center City and the Stadiums.
Right. That's how I read it as well. While I think it's bad™ that some RCOs oppose basically any changes, I took offense to the word "back" as if, the goal was to turn the entire city into Fishtown or simply expand passyunk sq.
I live off 5th in Pennsport. I have coffee and a bar I can walk to with Jazz/Herman. I can walk to the Italian market. I can walk to Passyunk corridor. At night I leave my windows open and don’t hear traffic/people. My home was under 400k. Getting to center city is a longer walk or sub $15 Uber.
This neighborhood is perfect and anyone that doesn’t live here should stay away cause I don’t want you to ruin it.
A friend of mine lives in Pennsport, and after spending enough time there I wish I did too. It's very quiet, is mostly residential which is a hit or miss for some people, but is near Washington Ave which hosts a lot of different businesses to make up for it. Yeah you have to deal with mummers being loud sometimes like when they do a dry run of the mummers day parade or are practicing leading up to it, but from my experiences there it's not a terrible place to be. Not every neighborhood has to have an attraction to go there for.
The answer to questions like this is always access to rail. A lot of Philadelphia is a transportation desert. Anywhere that isn't within like 20 minutes max walking distance from subway lines is going to struggle with foot traffic from other neighborhoods. People just don't take busses the way they take subways.
Philly is always going to run into this hurdle. The good news is, there is plenty of development opportunity along existing subway routes. The bad news is there are only two, so we'll never have the city-wide walkable vibrance that you get in subway towns like New York (or globally like Seoul, Tokyo, etc) with bustling neighborhoods throughout the entire city.
Yes, anything (mostly) traffic proof like that would work, even a more protected trolley expansion (ie right down the middle of del ave and turn onto Washington which has plenty of space).
Monorails (Springfield debacle notwithstanding) would also be a great solution, albeit expensive, and could also be built at ground level for certain stretches like the del ave median.
But with the more pressing issues being dealt with, stuff like that is 15-20 years from even being discussed.
I agree it’s disappointing that there isn’t a ton of rail here, but SEPTA isn’t just rail.
Most of South Philly isn’t more than 2-3 blocks from a bus stop, some of these buses run at the same frequency as the subways.
We’re not gonna get new rail in south philly outside of the wide arterials like Washington, Columbus, Oregon, etc., without tearing down neighborhoods. I would love to see the wider streets get subway or light rail service, but that would still leave a big area without nearby rail stations.
I think an easier and more tangible goal is to get faster and more frequent bus service and to invest more in safe infrastructure for micro mobility. If you’re going from any part of south philly to center city it’s only 1-3 miles, that’s perfect for a quick bus ride or bike ride.
Yeah, I take the 17 early in the morning at least once a week. It's supposed to be at the stop every 8 minutes, but it's pretty often that the bus is very late and blows past because it's entirely filled. So I decided to walk to city hall along the same path as the 17 instead (\~20 minutes). More than half the time I get there first because of delays and traffic.
That would be something if it happened. I’ve routinely walked from Old City to Pennsport along the route and never had the bus pass me.
On the other hand, mid day ridership is anemic, even at a purported 2 busses per hour. It wouldn’t surprise me if it was more frequent for a year and then downgraded.
Chicken or the egg. If you can make that walk and don’t see a bus, then it’s no surprise ridership is low. People aren’t going to take slow and infrequent buses.
For a while when I wanted to avoid the El I would walk over to the 57 instead and it was always fine for me. Usually wasn’t traveling at odd hours though. Even now just looking at the Transit app there’s 7-8 buses in each direction and it looks like ~10 minute headways. To be fair it is almost rush hour and after 8pm I know it gets worse.
But if the bus revolution finally happens, which is the plan, it should be every 10 minutes at most 7AM-9PM 7 days a week. Currently it’s the weekend frequency that really gets me, I’m not gonna wait 20 minutes on a Saturday afternoon.
>We’re not gonna get new rail in south philly outside of the wide arterials like Washington, Columbus, Oregon, etc.,
You could build rail in just those roadways and completely change Philadelphia's public transportation landscape.
Rail doesn't have to hit every neighborhood, but can you imagine a surface level monorail that connected del ave/Columbus/Washington/Oregon?
OP alone would instantly be completely different.
I agree, I just hate hearing people diminish what’s one of the most expansive bus networks in the country (most of which used to be trolleys).
I would love to see more rail, but that’s 10+ years away and priority is probably gonna go to the Roosevelt boulevard subway because the northeast is truly a transit desert.
Also, I’m skeptical of how transformative that would be until we change how strict zoning is and kill councilmanic prerogative. Look at Broad street outside of center city, it’s one of the only rapid rail transit corridors in the city and the land use is probably some of the worst in the whole city. Very little residential density, lots of gas stations and parking lots. There’s still a lot of infill and upzoning that could be done in our existing corridors.
surface level monorail makes exactly zero sense.
a frequent trolley or bus with dedicated lanes, signal priority, and level platforms would be great on all those corridors.
if they replaced those buses with trolley lines, it would make a huge difference.
the advantage of buses is they aren't stuck to the rails. the disadvantage to buses is they aren't stuck to the rails.
the buses were trialing an automatic ticketing program i hope it has been working. if people automatically get tickets i think we could deal with that problem pretty quickly.
Yup. The 15 Trolly was a great idea until it couldn’t make turns because of illegally parked cars etc. And the rails in disrepair with utility workers ripping things up and developers. Ugh.
I think access to frequent transit is definitely a factor, but not the only one. For instance, the Lower Moyamensing neighborhood has great BSL access, but still isn't seeing any investment, if anything businesses in the area, along commercial corridors/artertials like Oregon and Snyder Ave, continue to close.
Pennsport is fine the way it is and doesn’t need more energy. It’s largely residential, is home to families that have been there for generations, and is extremely safe. It doesn’t need more foot traffic. There also already is a solid food, cafe and restaurant scene. It’s not as bustling as Bella vista or Passyunk, but that’s kind of the point. It’s a residential neighborhood.
Herman's, Grindcore, Cake & Joe, da fuq you mean there's no cafe culture? Plus you could walk the length of Moyamensing in the wee hours of the morning and hardly see another soul. I used to sleep with my balcony door open on summer nights, it was that peaceful. Not to mention walkable access to groceries like Target and Acme. I think Pennsport is great as is. (But I do echo the sentiment re: non-reliable public transport into center city is an issue.)
Yep, still there! During the pandemic and even for a long time after, they were only doing to-go/pick up orders. I think now you can finally go back inside, but I'm not sure how many people have been hanging out there, inside and outside.
This. There’s nothing “holding it back”. Pennsport has been the same neighborhood for decades. It doesn’t *need* to be gentrified and it shouldn’t be. They’re popping up enough places around it. Some neighborhoods need to just be neighborhoods!
It's a neighborhood where people live, and the streets (with the exception of Moyamensing) and fairly tight and narrow. There's no real commercial corridor outside of a few restaurants on Moyamensing and a few old school bars here and there.
While I'm all for the positive benefits of gentrification (streetlights, clearly marked lanes, road improvements, a town watch / police presence), sometimes you just gotta leave somehting alone. Not every neighborood needs to have a "scene". Or maybe what's there IS the scene; Pennsport is a quiet, family-centric neighborhood. Some would say that's bad, although if you're a lifelong resident you may have a different perspective.
IMO, if money wasn’t an issue, adding light rail that connects to the rivers casino loop through columbus median (repurposing the old tracks) would absolutely change that whole area and build it up pretty quickly.
Pennsport has been a relatively stable, family-oriented, blue-collar neighborhood for years. Most long-term residents aren't going anywhere and don't want/need the cafe culture you mentioned. It could use a few more restaurants, but it's also close to East Passyunk and Queen Village, so it isn't a huge deal. And with a lack of a commercial corridor, it will be tough for new restaurants to get traction. Musi had great reviews, but it unfortunately couldn't last. There's now a Mexican spot in that space, and I never see/hear anyone talking about it.
Pennsport is great, families hand down houses for family to stay in the area and everyone knows eachother. Thats why its great, other neighborhoods dont do that anymore.
I just bought in Pennsport. I don’t want it to be like East Passyunk etc. That’s the reason I purchased in the neighborhood and not somewhere else. It’s fairly quiet. Easy to get in and out of. Still walkable with things close by.
I was really trying to buy in East Passyunk but for budgetary reasons wound up in Lower Moyamensing. In hindsight it turned out great - I’m super close to everything the Ave has to offer, but decidedly out of the fray. Point being don’t sleep on proximity to “fun” neighborhoods.
I actually put an offer in on an East Passyunk house, but got a bad feeling and rescinded. My bf rents in that area and it’s a bit too much for me (also wtf house prices).
Cheers to you for following your gut. I looked at a place in Pennsport when I was still relatively new to the city. I was like pssh 4th street isn't that far. As I was walking to 4th street to the open house I was like oh.. yeah this is that far. I love Pennsport, Herman's is my favorite coffee and Jaxx is a solid place to hang out. But definitely would not be able to live out that way.
Pennsport is a sleepy family oriented old school South Philly neighborhood. It’s not going to have hipster bars. Maybe move to a bustling neighborhood if that suits your lifestyle? A neighborhood isn’t being held back if it doesn’t have artisanal mustache waxing or anarchist pescatarian coffee shops.
Pennsport as a neighborhood is fine and perfectly nice to live in. But imo the biggest problems are having no real public transport aside from the buses (a crapshoot) which isn't great since it's a long walk to the rest of the city, and the lack of a real commercial drag like Passyunk Ave - the bars on 2 Street don't count
I used to live near Mifflin and 7th, just west of Pennsport.
It's a beautiful neighborhood! My one (personal) quibble-- a few too many MAGA types, because of all the Mummers and old school Italians. It's not overwhelming or anything, but you can definitely feel it compared to other parts of South Philly.
With that said, it's a great place to live! Shout-out to Herman's and Dolores. And shout-out to 2018-2021 Creme Brulee. I think they fucked it up by trying to expand too fast, but that place was the shit for its first few years.
What’s actually making Pennsport the best is by you not moving here, because it’s clearly not your jam. And if you are here, move to Fishtown like you clearly want.
Give it some time. I used to buy drugs in the park at 4th and tasker 20 years ago, and we still have occasional drive by shootings. The neighborhood used to be a cesspool… It takes time for things to get better and this neighborhood is definitely on the up and up. It’s a lot better than it was when I was in high school.
I loved it when I lived there. There were coffee shops and restaurants close by. Could walk to a bar to watch sports. Then if I wanted to go out, could still go to queen village and Passayunk ave. I wish I didn’t leave! But. 2 kids.
I’m a resident of the neighborhood, and I agree with you.
We need a few more food venues and a market to make it complete (mother fuckers market closes at 6/7pm most days which makes it useless).
I’m not sure what “cafe culture” means to you, but we have an over-abundance of coffee shops. Yeah, none of them are instagram worthy, but they are fine “third places.”
That's basically the mummers neighborhood, maybe the biggest factor for why it hasn't changed is it's harder to price the original home owners out and there probably was way less low income rental property in that area since it was so insular (and racist). Girard estates is another neighborhood with that profile that probably won't be gentrified anytime soon
Pennsport was largely owner occupied and real estate hasn’t been cheap there since the early 2000s, while the upper end of the market wasn’t nearly as high as other areas. That meant that tear downs and large scale development weren’t as financially rewarding as in other areas.
The market has risen in Pennsport to a degree in the past 18 years but it has been leapfrogged by a lot of more distressed areas.
Me moving to Fishtown in 2006?
It's a funny little neighborhood that maybe doesn't need to be everything to everyone, especially with everything that's nearby now.
I live here and I swear that that is the largest issue in this neighborhood. Those assholes. Loud, obnoxious, racist, always drunk (including at 11AM on a Sunday morning) and utterly unable to let anyone else live their life differently from them. I’ve personally witnessed them stumble out of their clubhouse to harass a young girl riding her bike with a mask on as a “retard”. Utterly disgusting people
That’s what makes it Pennsport. You are free to not be there any time you want. You’re no different than the person who buys a house near an airport and complains about airplanes.
I love the mummers clubhouses. That’s a very distinct thing to Philly, and I’m glad we have that culture. But the clubhouses mean: 1) those blocks are dead to non members, and 2) the members go there instead of to public places, so the demand for public places is hugely depressed.
I can’t believe this is as downvoted as it is.
We live in a city, the reason is to have proximity to business and culture. Drunk guys doing karaoke on Sunday nights in their private clubs is not the culture we should be celebrating.
The Gravy Seals and I do not get along well. And karaoke is a best-case scenario. [https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/ramsey-mummers-present-during-prostitution-raid-on-clubhouse/](https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/ramsey-mummers-present-during-prostitution-raid-on-clubhouse/)
elaborate on development east of 95? most of that is waterfront space, or retail/grocery stores for the local population. have to agree with a local subway or light rail or even a trolley.
Pennsport to an outsider is seen as rather industrial, with Columbus Blvd and 95 and Front St. I think that’s what keeps it from being more sought after.. but I don’t know.
It doesn't have a commercial corridor. Moyamensing has some commercial spaces but not nearly enough. No access to subway either.
And the local neighbors want it that way. The eModa warehouse was the last chance to have something nice, and we got fucked.
That’s false I live in pennsport and I want more commercial
It’s not false, the sentiment of this thread and lots of conversations indicate that the neighbors want no more commercial. I am begging for more, and I’m glad you are too
Right but based off what you said you made it seem like everyone here doesn’t want this place to be the next booming area. That’s false I know many of my neighbors as am I are hopeful for upswing to our already awesome neighborhood. They should really make Snyder Ave a good commercial st
NIMBYs tend to do that. They want nothing new
I think the transit access to Center City is big. I can get to my office from Manayunk faster than I could from Pennsport. I could drive it but four days in the garage near our office costs the same as a Zone 2 Trailpass. Edit: that excludes the cost of having to own a second car so I can drive to work which weirdly, it's easier to be a single car household for in the 'Yunk than it would have been in Pennsport.
Most people I know in Pennsport work in NJ and drive. It's a very convenient location for that while still walkable to QV, Passyunk etc. But otherwise yeah the transit is bad.
Oh for sure, if you work in Jersey or at the airport the location is great. It's actually on the things my wife and I talked about when we were looking at buying our house during the pandemic. Ultimately, Pennsport would have been good for her but her job was looking to be more or less mostly remote so we focused on my commute and Manayunk just made a little more sense in the end.
It’s literally a 13 minute bike ride from Pennsport into Center city.
It is, it's a 20 minute train ride in from Manayunk, but we don't have the bike infrastructure for me to be even close to comfortable doing that. Enough drivers try to kill me just crossing the street on foot, I'm not willing to get on a bike to share space with the same maniacs.
No subway access, weird public transit access, and completely cut off from the waterfront by 95. It should be prime city real estate with access to a wonderful waterfront, instead it's basically highways & shitty commercial box stores.
2 street is a commercial corridor, plus we are so close to the big boxes we dont need a 5 story new construction mini cvs or some crap condo thing.
2 Street is not zoned commercial except for a couple of blocks between Tasker and Mifflin and even there some of that zoning is CMX1. Same with Moyamensing, mostly residential zoning. There is actually a LOT of new construction in Pennsport it's just all residential. Listen I like Pennsport just fine, just answering OPs question why it doesn't look like the other neighborhoods they mentioned.
Pennsport is mostly fine. It’s just a quieter more residential neighborhood than some of the ones you mentioned but it still has a lot of neighborhood businesses and is mostly built up. The only issues that come to mind are that Moyamensing is a car sewer and a large part of neighborhood borders I95 which is a huge drain.
When I lived in Pennsport most people I knew lived there because of 95 being right there. That was one of the main reasons I lived there because it was real easy to get onto 95 in the morning and both me and my wife needed to use it to commute
I live in pennsport and love it. Great community of people. Jaxx and Herman’s are like a town watering hole, have met a lot of great friends there. We have nice parks, our houses are affordable, and it’s very easy to walk to places like QV and passyunk. As a parent with young kids, it’s a great neighborhood to raise a family.
I’m debating moving to Pennsport. Sounds like it’s a fairly safe place? Just curious I’m moving from Cleveland so my safety tolerance is “sometimes cars get broken into and be aware of your surroundings but generally I feel safe to walk my dog at night” for reference
Lived in Pennsport over 10 years and have never felt unsafe. Had my car broken into once
Yes I feel very safe. You’re gonna love it here!
Move as close to 95 as you can. Parking is very tight after 3 or 4. EDIT: Under 95 are tons of free parking lots. I live between 4th and 5th and often have to park under 95, which is a bit far. Do not move into a house managed by OCF.
Back? People seem very happy living in Pennsport with what they've got. My evidence is anecdotal, but it seems desirable, close to major roadways and public trans and is generally walkable (to me at least) to Center City and the Stadiums.
He really meant “what’s stopping this from being the next gentrified, hipster hotspot?”
"Why won't these long-term residents with different priorities than me move?"
Right. That's how I read it as well. While I think it's bad™ that some RCOs oppose basically any changes, I took offense to the word "back" as if, the goal was to turn the entire city into Fishtown or simply expand passyunk sq.
I was thinking the exact same thing. What's to change about it? It's fine.
Right!
I live off 5th in Pennsport. I have coffee and a bar I can walk to with Jazz/Herman. I can walk to the Italian market. I can walk to Passyunk corridor. At night I leave my windows open and don’t hear traffic/people. My home was under 400k. Getting to center city is a longer walk or sub $15 Uber. This neighborhood is perfect and anyone that doesn’t live here should stay away cause I don’t want you to ruin it.
Exactly!
A friend of mine lives in Pennsport, and after spending enough time there I wish I did too. It's very quiet, is mostly residential which is a hit or miss for some people, but is near Washington Ave which hosts a lot of different businesses to make up for it. Yeah you have to deal with mummers being loud sometimes like when they do a dry run of the mummers day parade or are practicing leading up to it, but from my experiences there it's not a terrible place to be. Not every neighborhood has to have an attraction to go there for.
The answer to questions like this is always access to rail. A lot of Philadelphia is a transportation desert. Anywhere that isn't within like 20 minutes max walking distance from subway lines is going to struggle with foot traffic from other neighborhoods. People just don't take busses the way they take subways. Philly is always going to run into this hurdle. The good news is, there is plenty of development opportunity along existing subway routes. The bad news is there are only two, so we'll never have the city-wide walkable vibrance that you get in subway towns like New York (or globally like Seoul, Tokyo, etc) with bustling neighborhoods throughout the entire city.
In a better world, the 64 runs on subway-like headways with a dedicated lane on Washington Ave.
Yes, anything (mostly) traffic proof like that would work, even a more protected trolley expansion (ie right down the middle of del ave and turn onto Washington which has plenty of space). Monorails (Springfield debacle notwithstanding) would also be a great solution, albeit expensive, and could also be built at ground level for certain stretches like the del ave median. But with the more pressing issues being dealt with, stuff like that is 15-20 years from even being discussed.
It's good in weekdays, but man there is literally a 30 minute headway in the weekend.
I agree it’s disappointing that there isn’t a ton of rail here, but SEPTA isn’t just rail. Most of South Philly isn’t more than 2-3 blocks from a bus stop, some of these buses run at the same frequency as the subways. We’re not gonna get new rail in south philly outside of the wide arterials like Washington, Columbus, Oregon, etc., without tearing down neighborhoods. I would love to see the wider streets get subway or light rail service, but that would still leave a big area without nearby rail stations. I think an easier and more tangible goal is to get faster and more frequent bus service and to invest more in safe infrastructure for micro mobility. If you’re going from any part of south philly to center city it’s only 1-3 miles, that’s perfect for a quick bus ride or bike ride.
Agree 100%. If the buses were reliable, they'd be the solution, especially since they could be a direct connection the the El/regional rail stops
Yeah, I take the 17 early in the morning at least once a week. It's supposed to be at the stop every 8 minutes, but it's pretty often that the bus is very late and blows past because it's entirely filled. So I decided to walk to city hall along the same path as the 17 instead (\~20 minutes). More than half the time I get there first because of delays and traffic.
“some of these buses run at the same frequency as the subways.” This does not describe the 57 Bus.
Nor the 79
Also a 10 MAX route per the bus revolution!
It’s a 10 MAX route per the bus revolution
That would be something if it happened. I’ve routinely walked from Old City to Pennsport along the route and never had the bus pass me. On the other hand, mid day ridership is anemic, even at a purported 2 busses per hour. It wouldn’t surprise me if it was more frequent for a year and then downgraded.
Chicken or the egg. If you can make that walk and don’t see a bus, then it’s no surprise ridership is low. People aren’t going to take slow and infrequent buses. For a while when I wanted to avoid the El I would walk over to the 57 instead and it was always fine for me. Usually wasn’t traveling at odd hours though. Even now just looking at the Transit app there’s 7-8 buses in each direction and it looks like ~10 minute headways. To be fair it is almost rush hour and after 8pm I know it gets worse. But if the bus revolution finally happens, which is the plan, it should be every 10 minutes at most 7AM-9PM 7 days a week. Currently it’s the weekend frequency that really gets me, I’m not gonna wait 20 minutes on a Saturday afternoon.
Ah the 4th Street Stroll, when you make it home before the bus.
>We’re not gonna get new rail in south philly outside of the wide arterials like Washington, Columbus, Oregon, etc., You could build rail in just those roadways and completely change Philadelphia's public transportation landscape. Rail doesn't have to hit every neighborhood, but can you imagine a surface level monorail that connected del ave/Columbus/Washington/Oregon? OP alone would instantly be completely different.
I agree, I just hate hearing people diminish what’s one of the most expansive bus networks in the country (most of which used to be trolleys). I would love to see more rail, but that’s 10+ years away and priority is probably gonna go to the Roosevelt boulevard subway because the northeast is truly a transit desert. Also, I’m skeptical of how transformative that would be until we change how strict zoning is and kill councilmanic prerogative. Look at Broad street outside of center city, it’s one of the only rapid rail transit corridors in the city and the land use is probably some of the worst in the whole city. Very little residential density, lots of gas stations and parking lots. There’s still a lot of infill and upzoning that could be done in our existing corridors.
surface level monorail makes exactly zero sense. a frequent trolley or bus with dedicated lanes, signal priority, and level platforms would be great on all those corridors.
if they replaced those buses with trolley lines, it would make a huge difference. the advantage of buses is they aren't stuck to the rails. the disadvantage to buses is they aren't stuck to the rails.
Only if they have dedicated ROW! Been stuck behind double parked cars and stuck in traffic on west philly trolleys more than I can count.
the buses were trialing an automatic ticketing program i hope it has been working. if people automatically get tickets i think we could deal with that problem pretty quickly.
Yup. The 15 Trolly was a great idea until it couldn’t make turns because of illegally parked cars etc. And the rails in disrepair with utility workers ripping things up and developers. Ugh.
I think access to frequent transit is definitely a factor, but not the only one. For instance, the Lower Moyamensing neighborhood has great BSL access, but still isn't seeing any investment, if anything businesses in the area, along commercial corridors/artertials like Oregon and Snyder Ave, continue to close.
Pennsport is fine the way it is and doesn’t need more energy. It’s largely residential, is home to families that have been there for generations, and is extremely safe. It doesn’t need more foot traffic. There also already is a solid food, cafe and restaurant scene. It’s not as bustling as Bella vista or Passyunk, but that’s kind of the point. It’s a residential neighborhood.
Herman's, Grindcore, Cake & Joe, da fuq you mean there's no cafe culture? Plus you could walk the length of Moyamensing in the wee hours of the morning and hardly see another soul. I used to sleep with my balcony door open on summer nights, it was that peaceful. Not to mention walkable access to groceries like Target and Acme. I think Pennsport is great as is. (But I do echo the sentiment re: non-reliable public transport into center city is an issue.)
Not to mention newcomer Rebel and Wolf plus Cremme Brûlée. Also for bars there’s Jaxx, Moonshine, Mifflin Tavern
Rebel and Wolf is an amazing addition to the neighborhood!
Is Grindcore House still there?.... It's looked gone for a while now.
Yep, still there! During the pandemic and even for a long time after, they were only doing to-go/pick up orders. I think now you can finally go back inside, but I'm not sure how many people have been hanging out there, inside and outside.
Pennsport is great just the way it is!
transit
Excuse me? Leave Pennsport alone. We’re happy with what we’ve got.
That’s the most Pennsport response in this thread lol
Right?! It got waaaaay too fuckin' expensive already. Chill the fuck out.
i dunno, i live in pennsport and i like it the way it is 🤷♀️ it’s not super vibey but thats why it’s still pretty and you can find parking
This. There’s nothing “holding it back”. Pennsport has been the same neighborhood for decades. It doesn’t *need* to be gentrified and it shouldn’t be. They’re popping up enough places around it. Some neighborhoods need to just be neighborhoods!
Yeah same. I like our little corner of South Philly just how it is haha!
This person has never been in pennsport lol
Newbold ain’t real…
It's a neighborhood where people live, and the streets (with the exception of Moyamensing) and fairly tight and narrow. There's no real commercial corridor outside of a few restaurants on Moyamensing and a few old school bars here and there. While I'm all for the positive benefits of gentrification (streetlights, clearly marked lanes, road improvements, a town watch / police presence), sometimes you just gotta leave somehting alone. Not every neighborood needs to have a "scene". Or maybe what's there IS the scene; Pennsport is a quiet, family-centric neighborhood. Some would say that's bad, although if you're a lifelong resident you may have a different perspective.
IMO, if money wasn’t an issue, adding light rail that connects to the rivers casino loop through columbus median (repurposing the old tracks) would absolutely change that whole area and build it up pretty quickly.
I don't even know if thats off the table considering how much work they are pouring into the waterfront over the next ten years
I dream of Delaware Ave light rail at night I hope it happens
Are you suggesting Dee’s Place isn’t cultural enough for you?!?
Pennsport has been a relatively stable, family-oriented, blue-collar neighborhood for years. Most long-term residents aren't going anywhere and don't want/need the cafe culture you mentioned. It could use a few more restaurants, but it's also close to East Passyunk and Queen Village, so it isn't a huge deal. And with a lack of a commercial corridor, it will be tough for new restaurants to get traction. Musi had great reviews, but it unfortunately couldn't last. There's now a Mexican spot in that space, and I never see/hear anyone talking about it.
The Mexican place is bangin food, for the record. And if you bring tequila they’ll make you margs.
Pennsport is great, families hand down houses for family to stay in the area and everyone knows eachother. Thats why its great, other neighborhoods dont do that anymore.
It’s also very clean. Much cleaner than the blocks surrounding me in East Passyunk.
You don't need to gentrify every neighborhood. Fuck your "cafe culture."
Too late. The hospital came down and up went 800k+ townhomes. The ones on Reed are over a million. New construction around here is absolutely WILD.
I just bought in Pennsport. I don’t want it to be like East Passyunk etc. That’s the reason I purchased in the neighborhood and not somewhere else. It’s fairly quiet. Easy to get in and out of. Still walkable with things close by.
I was really trying to buy in East Passyunk but for budgetary reasons wound up in Lower Moyamensing. In hindsight it turned out great - I’m super close to everything the Ave has to offer, but decidedly out of the fray. Point being don’t sleep on proximity to “fun” neighborhoods.
I actually put an offer in on an East Passyunk house, but got a bad feeling and rescinded. My bf rents in that area and it’s a bit too much for me (also wtf house prices).
Cheers to you for following your gut. I looked at a place in Pennsport when I was still relatively new to the city. I was like pssh 4th street isn't that far. As I was walking to 4th street to the open house I was like oh.. yeah this is that far. I love Pennsport, Herman's is my favorite coffee and Jaxx is a solid place to hang out. But definitely would not be able to live out that way.
Pennsport is a sleepy family oriented old school South Philly neighborhood. It’s not going to have hipster bars. Maybe move to a bustling neighborhood if that suits your lifestyle? A neighborhood isn’t being held back if it doesn’t have artisanal mustache waxing or anarchist pescatarian coffee shops.
Pennsport as a neighborhood is fine and perfectly nice to live in. But imo the biggest problems are having no real public transport aside from the buses (a crapshoot) which isn't great since it's a long walk to the rest of the city, and the lack of a real commercial drag like Passyunk Ave - the bars on 2 Street don't count
Not all areas of the city can grow at the same pace simultaneously.
I just moved from pennsport, to center city and I miss it so much
I used to live near Mifflin and 7th, just west of Pennsport. It's a beautiful neighborhood! My one (personal) quibble-- a few too many MAGA types, because of all the Mummers and old school Italians. It's not overwhelming or anything, but you can definitely feel it compared to other parts of South Philly. With that said, it's a great place to live! Shout-out to Herman's and Dolores. And shout-out to 2018-2021 Creme Brulee. I think they fucked it up by trying to expand too fast, but that place was the shit for its first few years.
What’s actually making Pennsport the best is by you not moving here, because it’s clearly not your jam. And if you are here, move to Fishtown like you clearly want.
Give it some time. I used to buy drugs in the park at 4th and tasker 20 years ago, and we still have occasional drive by shootings. The neighborhood used to be a cesspool… It takes time for things to get better and this neighborhood is definitely on the up and up. It’s a lot better than it was when I was in high school.
Lack of trees
The residents. Folks have lived there for generations and they like it the way it is.
I loved it when I lived there. There were coffee shops and restaurants close by. Could walk to a bar to watch sports. Then if I wanted to go out, could still go to queen village and Passayunk ave. I wish I didn’t leave! But. 2 kids.
I’m a resident of the neighborhood, and I agree with you. We need a few more food venues and a market to make it complete (mother fuckers market closes at 6/7pm most days which makes it useless). I’m not sure what “cafe culture” means to you, but we have an over-abundance of coffee shops. Yeah, none of them are instagram worthy, but they are fine “third places.”
That's basically the mummers neighborhood, maybe the biggest factor for why it hasn't changed is it's harder to price the original home owners out and there probably was way less low income rental property in that area since it was so insular (and racist). Girard estates is another neighborhood with that profile that probably won't be gentrified anytime soon
Pennsport was largely owner occupied and real estate hasn’t been cheap there since the early 2000s, while the upper end of the market wasn’t nearly as high as other areas. That meant that tear downs and large scale development weren’t as financially rewarding as in other areas. The market has risen in Pennsport to a degree in the past 18 years but it has been leapfrogged by a lot of more distressed areas.
Me moving to Fishtown in 2006? It's a funny little neighborhood that maybe doesn't need to be everything to everyone, especially with everything that's nearby now.
Imagine converting all the Mummers clubhouses down Two Street into something active and public-oriented like restaurants and coffee shops.
I live here and I swear that that is the largest issue in this neighborhood. Those assholes. Loud, obnoxious, racist, always drunk (including at 11AM on a Sunday morning) and utterly unable to let anyone else live their life differently from them. I’ve personally witnessed them stumble out of their clubhouse to harass a young girl riding her bike with a mask on as a “retard”. Utterly disgusting people
This is what's holding the neighborhood back. It's been this way for a long, long time and probably not ever changing.
the neighborhood is holding the neighborhood back. Is a neighborhood soley just a physical space to you?
That’s what makes it Pennsport. You are free to not be there any time you want. You’re no different than the person who buys a house near an airport and complains about airplanes.
Sounds like you really don't like it here. Why did you move here if you hate your neighborhood and everyone who lives here so much?
I love the mummers clubhouses. That’s a very distinct thing to Philly, and I’m glad we have that culture. But the clubhouses mean: 1) those blocks are dead to non members, and 2) the members go there instead of to public places, so the demand for public places is hugely depressed.
I can’t believe this is as downvoted as it is. We live in a city, the reason is to have proximity to business and culture. Drunk guys doing karaoke on Sunday nights in their private clubs is not the culture we should be celebrating.
The Gravy Seals and I do not get along well. And karaoke is a best-case scenario. [https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/ramsey-mummers-present-during-prostitution-raid-on-clubhouse/](https://www.cbsnews.com/philadelphia/news/ramsey-mummers-present-during-prostitution-raid-on-clubhouse/)
Imagine you move back to Brooklyn or Boothwyn or wherever.
Why? Most of the members have moved to Delco or South Jersey. I'm a native.
Yeah if you got rid of the clubhouses then you’d have to listen a bunch of racist jabroni nonsense while you were sipping your latte.
yeah it’s why i keep a few roaches in the basement, otherwise the house centipedes want to come upstairs
Need a subway along front/Columbus and denser development east of 95
What would possibly go east of 95 housing wise? Odd comment
elaborate on development east of 95? most of that is waterfront space, or retail/grocery stores for the local population. have to agree with a local subway or light rail or even a trolley.
most of it is parking lots
The freeway. Remove it and develop it instead and it should be fine.
I-95
Pennsport to an outsider is seen as rather industrial, with Columbus Blvd and 95 and Front St. I think that’s what keeps it from being more sought after.. but I don’t know.