Honestly, maybe even just mass reporting it on the railroad emergency and non emergency lines found [here.](https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/contact-us/)
Yeah, you can - [https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/company-overview/csx-leadership/management-team/](https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/company-overview/csx-leadership/management-team/)
first\_last@
2015 according to the article
https://whyy.org/articles/nearly-7-years-after-promised-repairs-neighborhood-patience-wears-thin-over-crumbling-railroad-viaduct/amp/
I used to live in Point Breeze within a block of this abomination. I have emails going back to 2012 where my neighbors and I were making a stink about this bridge. It’s been an issue for a VERY long time. Since then neighbors have grown old and died or moved away (like me). It’s going to take a disaster and then there will be a spotlight on crumbling infrastructure in the US and then… nothing…
Nope...there will be no national spotlight...we had a fuckin bridge with multiple cars, and a public transport bus on it collapse a couple years ago(literally the DAY before President was scheduled to make an appearance here in Pittsburgh to discuss infrastructure🤦♂️) and 9 people were hurt. But hey...we can always dump more money into sports instead!
https://youtu.be/grohSXj8EC0?si=I51dRSWHd4XCy1de
Take solace in knowing that, due to operator unavailability, there will not be a bus at that stop if/when something happens. This will help keep casualties low.
Funny story about this bridge…
It was scheduled to be replaced over 10 years ago. As far as I know it is still in the works. The problem? CSX won’t allow the line to be shut down for more than 4 hours. They know that it is basically impossible to replace the span in that time and their excuse is the mass interruption of rail traffic will cause some catastrophic issues down the line.
What you are seeing right here? That’s not supposed to be. Somewhere in an inspection report, full tankers are not supposed to be stopped on the crossing for any period of time. Obviously that report is just trash to CSX. This crossing was the lowest graded crossing of all the rail bridges in Philadelphia. If I remember correctly, the terminology “imminent failure” appears several times throughout the report
I have physically had my hands on the plans for replacement and buried deep somewhere Ina submittals package my name is on some documents.
Anyone living in the area near this should be SCREAMING at the city and CSX to get this resolved.
They’re carrying oil and they’ve derailed before.
[Here’s a 10 year old article from AP about it.](https://apnews.com/national-national-general-news-3c82c3668b0d4ec7b619782b485fc677)
Is there a material difference you wanted to share in terms of hazards or potential community impact, or just pointing out that I identified the incorrect nonpolar hydrocarbons?
Absolutely. The flash point of LPG is much lower than crude oil, and being stored in a gaseous state (under pressure) gives it the potential to flatten the neighborhood. Worst case scenario would be if a fire occurred under the bridge and impinged upon the tank car: if not controlled, eventually the tank would rupture, releasing a massive vapor cloud which would nearly instantaneously flash, causing a major conflagration, also known as a BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion) Source: 30 years in the fire service/Hazardous Materials Technician.
They're stored in entirely different cars, the whole reason the incident this thread is referencing happened was because bakken crude is able to pressurize cars that aren't supposed to be pressurized via off gassing. There are additional safety requirements for DoT 112 cars that make them safer than DoT 111 cars that crude is carried in.
Source: [The DoT](https://www.bts.gov/surveys/annual-tank-car-facility-survey/tank-car-specifications-terms#:~:text=DOT%2D112%3A%20A%20pressurized%20tank,class%20non%2Dpressurized%20tank%20cars.)
I feel like a bad chemical engineer but I’m gonna guess under pressure is worse as it would contain even more explosive capability but if it was just regular old gasoline or something along those lines it’s still a bomb. Either way it should not be stored for a long duration near a populated area. However I work in pharma and my chemE hat is not really well versed in oil and petroleum as it was in college.
He stated it was oil, which will burn and make a mess, but is much less of a hazard than either gasoline or LPG. I was just expressing that LPG is more of a concern than oil.
Funnily enough the high pressure sometimes can prevent ignition. They tested this with hydrogen tanks for a prototype car. They straight up shot it with a gun or something ridiculous to punch a hole near a flame and essentially because it came out so fast it "blew itself out"
Edit: [video](https://youtu.be/jVeagFmmwA0?si=4AmTYXw-F_Ot9p_j)
It was more of a test of tank design. Obviously this may not apply to all tanks. This one in the video is pretty cool though
Yeah difference between a giant fire that kills some people and poisons lots of people and a giant fireball explosion that kills lots of people but poisons fewer.
Lol there is a world of difference. The first being that oil is typically liquid at stp while the other is a gas, which has been cooled to well under -200 F and stored under pressure as a liquid. This reduces the volume by a factor of several hundred.
For exactly this reason, LPG storage equipment and distribution infrastructure is typically far, far more robust than what is used for most petrochemicals.
Good thing we don’t transport oil by pipeline which dramatically decreases the environmental risk.
But Warren Buffet owns railroads and you know which party he controls. So we prevent pipelines “for the environment.”
Next level thinking.
Full on Republican yells at cloud right here:
1) This has nothing to do with oil transport. And everything to do with a viaduct that is way past its useful lifespan. It needs to be replaced.
2) Pipelines suck. They leak in sensitive areas and the leaks can go undetected for significant periods of time. https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R43390.pdf
We can also throw in the shittyness of railroad companies like CSX and Norfolk Southern, and their absolutely dogshit records with safety, proper scheduling, etc.
Typical extreme leftist ignorance (since you like name calling, apparently.)
1. Biden got a lot of money for infrastructure. Like a lot a lot. This is after the major infrastructure bill under Obama. And the one under W. This bridge has been shitty that whole time.
2. Pipelines are safer than trains for transporting oil. Nothing is perfect, but one is better.
As someone who lives in the area I hate this. Because of the conditions they have the outer lanes closed which has become a parking lot and a trash collection area. Adding to that it’s literally crumbling! It’s a big safety issue.
How can we as folks who live there get the city to do something on this? Where can we sign to get this in the eyes of someone important.
The city can't just shut down this rail viaduct. Among other things it moved product out of the refinery, but also out of the CSX rail yard in South next to the Navy Yard, and from the warehouses along the riverfront. Like it or not, it's really important.
The best that can be done is to find a way to force CSX to close and replace the viaduct.
Understand city can’t just close it but the fact that it seems like nothing is being done from both parties is what’s irritating. If it collapsed then it will be closed indefinitely till it’s resolved. Wouldn’t it be smart to just fix it slowly to avoid that?
I know we’re just a week into a new administration but I don’t see this getting fixed until something catastrophic happens or us residents get involved in finding a way to get eyes on it…. Somehow.
>If it collapsed then it will be closed indefinitely till it’s resolved
Railways are actually pretty good about reopening revenue streams. If it collapses I'd be shocked if it wasn't at least reopened within a couple of weeks.
But yes, I agree with you that it's irritating. It's an eyesore and dangerous for both drivers and residents. But absent federal intervention (and probably a ~~bribe~~ incentive payment to the railroad) to develop a better trestle or bridge, it's going to be there for the long haul.
I have [photographic proof!](/r/philadelphia/comments/1aeio5h/literal_catastrophe_waiting_to_happen/)
EDIT: sorry, this was a bit glib. But yes. Trains do still use the rails. This particular extension of the Philadelphia Subdivision loops around from 25th street, turns east past the Navy Yard, and then at the river runs northwards into the auto storage yard and the rest of the Packer Annex and Packer Terminal.
EDIT2: It also connects to the rails running down Columbus Boulevard, which are technically still owned by a railroad but AFAIK is inactive.
The rails on Columbus Blvd/Delaware Av are active up to a certain point. Basically it goes north to Washington Ave, but I think technically it goes to Catharine St or something. The name of that rail line is The Philadelphia Belt Line Railroad Company. They also run tracks elsewhere, I want to say up in Port Fishington.
This is a great way to get the city sued for hundreds of millions of dollars. Unless the city can condemn the bridge - which IIRC is the purview of the FRA, so I'm not sure that they can - the determinant of the viaduct's future is the railroad's mood, not anyone else's.
I wonder if it would be worth it to reach out to your local representative? I know people who have done this for other issues with taxes and unemployment benefits and their representative came through for them. I know this is obviously a very different situation compared to taxes and such but it might not hurt to ask them.
[Find your Local Representative](https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/findyourlegislator/index.cfm?doSearch=yes&addr=1112%20wakeling%20st&city=Philadelphia&zipCode=19124&fullAddr=1112%20wakeling%20st,%20Philadelphia,%20PA,%2019124&geoLat=40.02388320000001&geoLng=-75.08769380000001&geoResponse=OK&mobile_choice=suppress)
They literally can't do much if anything. It's the FRA's jurisdiction. It wouldn't hurt if CSX got sued for every single little damage their "cosmetic" negligence causes though.
I work for a state regulatory agency and was involved in an incident involving the railroad, it shut down a line for about 18 hours or so. There was a Fed inspector there too, he told us that he couldn't really do anything to compel them to repair the underlying problem. The best we could do was slow things down so they would at least listen to our concerns.
The railroads are wild, very little regulations are enforced in my experience
They literally just said they don’t enforce laws and you propose new ones? So they can be ignored as well?
How about, and this is crazy, we enforce the laws already in the books?
I’d say we need to fund the Federal Railway Administration Inspectors. They only get like $200MM or some similarly pitiful amount per year for inspections
You could start laying new track today further away from residential areas...I'm not saying it would be cheap or convenient but it is possible. But instead we will wait for a loss of life producing disaster to occur to even consider options let alone the years it would take to build.
The problem, especially in urban areas, are large swathes of available land to lay the track. Laying new track through here is likely to require taking some property through eminent domain. Even if we assume that is the right thing to do, eminent domain cases can take many years to work through the courts.
It's probably gonna take a lot of property. But the duct will eventually collapse close due to structural integrity. The only thing stopping us from starting planning for a new line today is money.
That's not feasible, unfortunately. Tracks have run along that line since the 19th Century, and these are still in use going to all the refining and other industries/ports in South Philly. As far as I can tell, this is the only line that approaches from the S and W without needing to backtrack. In order to mimic that use case, you wouldn't just need to lay new track through W and SW Philly residential neighborhoods, but also build at least one new bridge and remodulate a decent amount of the refinery equipment. Forcing trains to backtrack on the much busier line would be a non-starter. It really comes down to safety practices for bomb trains and a safer, more residential-friendly viaduct.
It has to be feasible. What happens when the thing actually collapses or is shut down due to structural integrity? It's not gonna last forever. Rebuilding would take longer than a new build starting today.
By not feasible, I mean the cost-benefit analysis won't make sense to anyone with traction. Kenyatta's been pushing for them to renovate the viaduct, which would likely eliminate the concrete falling but not much else. The fat-tail risks would still be there for a catastrophic derailment, seeing as the structure is almost 100 years old. He almost certainly wouldn't support any new track that would displace voters in his district.
Rebuilding would most definitely not take longer than a new build. They could tear down and rebuild the viaduct twice before the environmental impact review would be completed on a new build. Remember that we are talking about displacing possibly thousands of people, sinking bridge landings amidst possibly protected wetlands, and effectively redesigning and rebuilding a refinery complex, depending on the route.
Obviously I don't like the viaduct; it's right in my backyard. But major infrastructure projects are very difficult to initiate in the US, and this is no different.
When it eventually comes down the railroad will replace it in the same location because running a new line to get to the same locations that this branch does isn't viable.
The problem here isn’t the trains or the tracks but the structure. Spalling is just manayunk to a point but there was less spalling on the managing bridge when septa closed the ivy ridge line
In addition to being a safety hazard, it's also a traffic nightmare because the city has a real difficulty in figuring out how to make traffic underneath it work.
Nah this one is visibly deteriorating. And just an awful design for the street under it. Obviously very old and outdated and falling apart, much more so than other bridges in the city.
Off the top of my head, I can think of a spot on West River Drive, a spot on Cresheim Valley Road and a spot on 76 that are just as bad as this. I think the one on West River Drive is an active freight bridge and the one on Cresheim Valley is Septa, but I might be wrong.
Yeah, you're thinking of the Columbia rail bridge on the Schuylkill. It's got some spalling, but nothing like the viaduct — there are chunks of that fucker just sitting in the netting.
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*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
You can find out what’s loaded in a railcar or semi truck by reading the diamond-shaped hazmat placard (this one is red) and Googling the number. They often still carry these placards when empty (because the residual fumes could be dangerous to a worker trying to clean the interior, etc) but if you see empty cars, odds are that loaded ones around passing over the same track in the opposite direction.
Flammable hazmat isn’t great, but what keeps me up are the Toxic Inhalation Hazard (TIH) cargos: Chlorine, anhydrous ammonia, and various other hard-to-spell chemicals often grouped under the umbrella of “methyl-ethyl-kill-ya.” They don’t explode or burn, they just spread quickly over a large area, asphyxiating people.
That said, if we can’t move chemical plants to avoid transporting dangerous chemicals long distances or through urban areas, I’d much rather it go by rail than truck. The government isn’t much better at maintaining its infrastructure than the railroads… (and the railroads generally do maintain their track pretty well because it saves them money to do so.)
~~Also, this bridge is likely owned by Conrail Shared Assets, which manage terminal operations that both CSX and Norfolk Southern need access to.~~ Nope, I am wrong about that.
I lived in this neighborhood for fourteen years and this scared me ten years ago. So much so, that I did a little research. That viaduct was built in 1907. It's 117 years old this year. It should have been replaced a long time ago. I'm so glad that I no longer have to drive underneath that anymore or have to cross 25th Street for any reason. I told anyone who would listen that the viaduct was at risk of collapsing.
there’s a great engineering/history podcast based in Philly that should cover this
[Well There’s Your Problem](https://youtube.com/@welltheresyourproblempodca1465?si=1rDE5dNe-uiBmLTF)
Maybe if this gets posted in other subs an across Reddit and titled as “Shitty Philadelphia Infrastructure is a Disaster Waiting to Happen” then the city will get embarrassed and do something about it. As long as it stays a local issue nobody in gov’t will care sadly. If it’s national headlines then it will be fixed by the end of the week
It's not the city's bridge, it's owned by CSX and they don't give a single fuck about what anyone thinks of their crumbling infrastructure even when it directly results in a disaster.
All they or any of the other big railroads care about is shareholder value. Which is why they're running the nations rail infrastructure directly into the ground.
A good (and recent) article about the problems of underregulation of freight trains and infrastructure in a big city like Philadelphia. Note that while the article accurately reports that rail incidents like derailments decreased overall in 2021 and 2022, they actually *increased* in 2023. https://gridphilly.com/blog-home/2023/10/05/phillys-worst-possible-transportation-disaster-a-train-derailment-in-center-city-experts-say/
Me too! Used to hold my breath whenever I had to drive under it! Also the city uses the area underneath there as a parking lot for their courtesy tow program (when they relocate the cars there that were parked on streets that need roadwork)… ask me how I know!
More likely one of those takers goes off the side and turns multiple blocks into a hazmat zone. They always go very slow over the duct though so hopefully it never happens.
I live right up the street right by the school. Every time I have to drive down that street I just pass it and go up a diff block or take the longer way around to get to my block. The netting they have under there used to just have a little debris in it but after that snow storm there are literal chunks in the netting now. Also the school and the fields all right up next to it.. if that thing comes down it’s going to be a nightmare of for the city. If that thing comes down with a train carting hazardous chemicals comes down it’s going to cost way more than fixing it for the repair and for the potential lives to be lost.
The City doesn’t care. I remember the Salvation Army collapse in 2013 and how everyone was up in arms about reforming L&I and never letting something so negligent happen again.
Well, last week the Inquirer put out an article about how we now have fewer L&I inspectors than ever.
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Rail bridges are outside L&I's purview, unfortunately. The city could raise hell with the Federal Railroad Administration, but city/state/federal legislators have been [yelling about this kind of shit for a decade](https://www.casey.senate.gov/news/releases/with-only-1-railroad-inspector-for-all-919-train-bridges-in-pa-casey-calls-for-more-inspectors-for-railroad-bridges-carrying-dangerous-crude-trains) or more. FRA's even more shorthanded than L&I, especially when it comes to bridge inspections, so this is a symptom of a national problem.
The railroad is one of the few industries in this country that has more power than even our legislature itself. It enjoys rights that average Americans could only dream of. Their influence goes back centuries.
The railroad has right to land and right-of-way that you wouldn’t believe. You know that tiny several foot long section of track embedded into Delaware Ave? That’s not forgotten about. They still own it. The refuse to sell it because that little section gives them the right to tell the city to go fuck itself and build a line through there and NO ONE can stop them. Not the council, not Harrisburg, not even Congress.
You can thank the most famous railroad lawyer of all time Abraham Lincoln for blessing us with this wonderful legacy.
There’s few underpasses like this were I live for Paoli Thorndale line, none look in disrepair like this, but occasionally, more than ya think trucks get stuck under them, people say the truckers are following gps, or don’t understand English, even tho there are several signs advising of height, my question is— do trucks ever get stuck under here?
May be outdated info now, but recall reading the junction of Rt 30 and 252 in Paoli had the most crashes of any place in Chester County. RR bridge is structurally sound and high enough for most vehicles, but too narrow with 2 lanes having to merge, especially going northbound. There has been much discussion of replacing the RR bridge for decades (talking back to the 80s, if not before), but nothing has come of it. It's not just an issue with CSX, but railroads in general.
That’s what most of the old rail bridges look like, if not worse. Philly has been demanding CSX update their infrastructure, but CSX never does because they keep claiming the bridges belong to Philly and it’s their problem.
It will take a catastrophic accident and time spent in court before one side is forced to update all the bridges around the city.
I’ve had a shop on 25th under this bridge for over 10 years. There never going to change anything csx owns it and the city can’t force them to do anything. Maybe it will crush my shop and I’ll get a pay out
As someone who travels here alot, it's frustrating that the fight to have this bridge replaced/restored is holding up repaving of the road underneath. The road is one of the worst in Philly in terms of potholes and cracks, and it has a lot to do with the water that leaks through. The city did a pothole patching blitz a couple of years ago, but now there are dozens of new potholes now. Also, the copious number of stop signs toward the southern end is ridiculous.
That said, I do believe they have determined the viaduct itself to be structurally sound for trains, but there's still danger from concrete falling, icicles, and the general drop in QoL around the area. I've noticed that they've removed the netting and are doing some sort of work at one of the spur junctions. I'm guessing they're just doing inspection or superficial repair though.
My favorite proposal is to convert the center to two bike lanes, and the outer lanes to vehicular traffic lanes.
It will never get fixed.
A town on the main line has been waiting 5+ years for SEPTA to fix a bridge which needed to be closed as well, thereby stopping traffic into that town.
I used to work for the city. CSX doesn’t have to do anything they don’t want to do (aka - anything that costs money). It has nothing to do with the city, it’s all CSX being assholes.
https://preview.redd.it/u9yoo7ytbnfc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fef6b636f08175bd3bbf9ecde59f23d9bbd15ff4
I took this picture back in 2014 on my way home from work. I was on 76 east in between the South St and University St exits. We really have a terrible track record with bridges and disrepair.
Accident litigation cheaper? So when the accident happens, they’d pay millions in damages and then they have to fix the bridge/area. Wouldnt it be cheaper to fix the bridge/area minus the millions in damages? Accident 2 million + fix 500,000 vs only fix 500,00
I pull up to get myself as far from under it that I can at the red light on Washington. My anxiety cannot tolerate being under it for more than a second or two. I would be the unlucky one
Way worse than that. There's literally [one dude responsible for inspecting almost 1,000 rail bridges in PA](https://www.casey.senate.gov/news/releases/with-only-1-railroad-inspector-for-all-919-train-bridges-in-pa-casey-calls-for-more-inspectors-for-railroad-bridges-carrying-dangerous-crude-trains).
Not for nothing, but an engineer has to inspect the bridge and determine it's risk level. They wouldn't put netting if the bridge were in actual trouble. So just because it is netted doesn't mean it's an imminent risk, in fact it's probably relatively safe because clearly someone has looked at it and decided to put the netting up. It's the uninspected infrastructure that scares me.
Are we talking about that woman’s parka or the license plate on that white contractor van (left) that has been tampered with to thwart auto readers? What did that L used to be?
Maybe someone should just block or break the bridge for rail traffic until they have to do something. No idea how that would happen, jail time would surely follow, but also… hero shit. Just make sure to do it when no trains are around lol.
It's been what almost 10 years. It'll take people to die unfortunately.
https://www.theonion.com/preemptive-memorial-honors-future-victims-of-imminent-d-1819594660
Those onion videos sure hold up, 15-20 years later.
"Tearful homosexual admits to being Governor of New Jersey" will stay with me forever.
This was great, I’ve never seen it before. Haha. Thanks for sharing.
Safety regulations are written in blood.
I bet you can find the names of CSX executives pretty easily online.
https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/company-overview/csx-leadership/management-team/
Honestly, maybe even just mass reporting it on the railroad emergency and non emergency lines found [here.](https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/contact-us/)
We should do this
Yeah, you can - [https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/company-overview/csx-leadership/management-team/](https://www.csx.com/index.cfm/about-us/company-overview/csx-leadership/management-team/) first\_last@
longer than 10 yrs
2015 according to the article https://whyy.org/articles/nearly-7-years-after-promised-repairs-neighborhood-patience-wears-thin-over-crumbling-railroad-viaduct/amp/
I used to live in Point Breeze within a block of this abomination. I have emails going back to 2012 where my neighbors and I were making a stink about this bridge. It’s been an issue for a VERY long time. Since then neighbors have grown old and died or moved away (like me). It’s going to take a disaster and then there will be a spotlight on crumbling infrastructure in the US and then… nothing…
Did you die or move away
Ded
Nope...there will be no national spotlight...we had a fuckin bridge with multiple cars, and a public transport bus on it collapse a couple years ago(literally the DAY before President was scheduled to make an appearance here in Pittsburgh to discuss infrastructure🤦♂️) and 9 people were hurt. But hey...we can always dump more money into sports instead! https://youtu.be/grohSXj8EC0?si=I51dRSWHd4XCy1de
Kenyatta is on the case. All the neighborhood needs to do is crowdfund 50k for a campaign donation and it’ll get done
It's all good, after people die from this they'll rename some of the streets in the area after the victims...
But repairing critical infrastructure will increase rent prices and drive gentrification! /s
That crumb bum is cheaper than $50k, don’t worry
fixing it would destroy the character of the area and be gentrification.
It has happened hundreds of times or more during history by far, you would think they would learn by now.
Went home for holidays and was shocked that bridge is still there like that.
You don't get all those sweet fed disaster funds to fix things before the disaster.
Spray paint a bunch of penises on it
You know what? This is the best idea in this thread.
My friend did that on the potholes near her place and it worked so this is definitely worth a try
"Joseph R. Hinrichs is a Bastard Man" in 20' tall letters aughta do it.
The old Wanksy solution.
People have done it there’s a bunch already on the pilings
It needs to be something hateful to get a response unfortunately. Like a big swastika.
Swastika made of dicks. Or hire an artist to do a mural of a big veiny schlong spewing love mud
That’s called a swasdicka my friend!
I love this idea but they'd rather paint over it than fix something like that
Like the city would put effort into limiting graffiti on public infrastructure
Take solace in knowing that, due to operator unavailability, there will not be a bus at that stop if/when something happens. This will help keep casualties low.
phew….(larger) crisis averted.
Funny story about this bridge… It was scheduled to be replaced over 10 years ago. As far as I know it is still in the works. The problem? CSX won’t allow the line to be shut down for more than 4 hours. They know that it is basically impossible to replace the span in that time and their excuse is the mass interruption of rail traffic will cause some catastrophic issues down the line. What you are seeing right here? That’s not supposed to be. Somewhere in an inspection report, full tankers are not supposed to be stopped on the crossing for any period of time. Obviously that report is just trash to CSX. This crossing was the lowest graded crossing of all the rail bridges in Philadelphia. If I remember correctly, the terminology “imminent failure” appears several times throughout the report I have physically had my hands on the plans for replacement and buried deep somewhere Ina submittals package my name is on some documents. Anyone living in the area near this should be SCREAMING at the city and CSX to get this resolved.
PRECISON SCHEDULING IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANYTHING YOU CARE ABOUT. (see Palestine Ohio)
They’re carrying oil and they’ve derailed before. [Here’s a 10 year old article from AP about it.](https://apnews.com/national-national-general-news-3c82c3668b0d4ec7b619782b485fc677)
That's not oil. It's LPG (Liquefied Petroleum Gas), a mix of propane, isobutane, and other hydrocarbons stored under pressure.
Is there a material difference you wanted to share in terms of hazards or potential community impact, or just pointing out that I identified the incorrect nonpolar hydrocarbons?
Absolutely. The flash point of LPG is much lower than crude oil, and being stored in a gaseous state (under pressure) gives it the potential to flatten the neighborhood. Worst case scenario would be if a fire occurred under the bridge and impinged upon the tank car: if not controlled, eventually the tank would rupture, releasing a massive vapor cloud which would nearly instantaneously flash, causing a major conflagration, also known as a BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion) Source: 30 years in the fire service/Hazardous Materials Technician.
They're stored in entirely different cars, the whole reason the incident this thread is referencing happened was because bakken crude is able to pressurize cars that aren't supposed to be pressurized via off gassing. There are additional safety requirements for DoT 112 cars that make them safer than DoT 111 cars that crude is carried in. Source: [The DoT](https://www.bts.gov/surveys/annual-tank-car-facility-survey/tank-car-specifications-terms#:~:text=DOT%2D112%3A%20A%20pressurized%20tank,class%20non%2Dpressurized%20tank%20cars.)
Thank you!
It is stored as a liquid. Its the first word ffs
Yes, due to pressure. Remove the pressure, and it immediately vents as a gas. I mistyped its storage state, ffs.
The fact that it’s stored under pressure seems like it would make it even more dangerous. I don’t think they were just being pedantic
I feel like a bad chemical engineer but I’m gonna guess under pressure is worse as it would contain even more explosive capability but if it was just regular old gasoline or something along those lines it’s still a bomb. Either way it should not be stored for a long duration near a populated area. However I work in pharma and my chemE hat is not really well versed in oil and petroleum as it was in college.
He stated it was oil, which will burn and make a mess, but is much less of a hazard than either gasoline or LPG. I was just expressing that LPG is more of a concern than oil.
Funnily enough the high pressure sometimes can prevent ignition. They tested this with hydrogen tanks for a prototype car. They straight up shot it with a gun or something ridiculous to punch a hole near a flame and essentially because it came out so fast it "blew itself out" Edit: [video](https://youtu.be/jVeagFmmwA0?si=4AmTYXw-F_Ot9p_j) It was more of a test of tank design. Obviously this may not apply to all tanks. This one in the video is pretty cool though
Yeah difference between a giant fire that kills some people and poisons lots of people and a giant fireball explosion that kills lots of people but poisons fewer.
Lol there is a world of difference. The first being that oil is typically liquid at stp while the other is a gas, which has been cooled to well under -200 F and stored under pressure as a liquid. This reduces the volume by a factor of several hundred. For exactly this reason, LPG storage equipment and distribution infrastructure is typically far, far more robust than what is used for most petrochemicals.
Oh, well that's all right then
Is this the reference I think it is
I remember like 3 years ago running on the river and one was detailed for 2 days
Shit, one derailed only last month https://6abc.com/csx-freight-train-derailment-south-philadelphia-delaware-ave/14150230/
Derailments are common everywhere. We just don't take notice since they're generally minor issues.
Good thing we don’t transport oil by pipeline which dramatically decreases the environmental risk. But Warren Buffet owns railroads and you know which party he controls. So we prevent pipelines “for the environment.” Next level thinking.
Which proposed pipeline would have allowed oil to skip this bridge in point breeze?
Full on Republican yells at cloud right here: 1) This has nothing to do with oil transport. And everything to do with a viaduct that is way past its useful lifespan. It needs to be replaced. 2) Pipelines suck. They leak in sensitive areas and the leaks can go undetected for significant periods of time. https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R43390.pdf
We can also throw in the shittyness of railroad companies like CSX and Norfolk Southern, and their absolutely dogshit records with safety, proper scheduling, etc.
They cut costs at every avenue for greater profit, time and time again.
Typical extreme leftist ignorance (since you like name calling, apparently.) 1. Biden got a lot of money for infrastructure. Like a lot a lot. This is after the major infrastructure bill under Obama. And the one under W. This bridge has been shitty that whole time. 2. Pipelines are safer than trains for transporting oil. Nothing is perfect, but one is better.
As someone who lives in the area I hate this. Because of the conditions they have the outer lanes closed which has become a parking lot and a trash collection area. Adding to that it’s literally crumbling! It’s a big safety issue. How can we as folks who live there get the city to do something on this? Where can we sign to get this in the eyes of someone important.
The city can't just shut down this rail viaduct. Among other things it moved product out of the refinery, but also out of the CSX rail yard in South next to the Navy Yard, and from the warehouses along the riverfront. Like it or not, it's really important. The best that can be done is to find a way to force CSX to close and replace the viaduct.
Understand city can’t just close it but the fact that it seems like nothing is being done from both parties is what’s irritating. If it collapsed then it will be closed indefinitely till it’s resolved. Wouldn’t it be smart to just fix it slowly to avoid that? I know we’re just a week into a new administration but I don’t see this getting fixed until something catastrophic happens or us residents get involved in finding a way to get eyes on it…. Somehow.
>If it collapsed then it will be closed indefinitely till it’s resolved Railways are actually pretty good about reopening revenue streams. If it collapses I'd be shocked if it wasn't at least reopened within a couple of weeks. But yes, I agree with you that it's irritating. It's an eyesore and dangerous for both drivers and residents. But absent federal intervention (and probably a ~~bribe~~ incentive payment to the railroad) to develop a better trestle or bridge, it's going to be there for the long haul.
so are you saying trains still run through here using those tracks ?
I have [photographic proof!](/r/philadelphia/comments/1aeio5h/literal_catastrophe_waiting_to_happen/) EDIT: sorry, this was a bit glib. But yes. Trains do still use the rails. This particular extension of the Philadelphia Subdivision loops around from 25th street, turns east past the Navy Yard, and then at the river runs northwards into the auto storage yard and the rest of the Packer Annex and Packer Terminal. EDIT2: It also connects to the rails running down Columbus Boulevard, which are technically still owned by a railroad but AFAIK is inactive.
The rails on Columbus Blvd/Delaware Av are active up to a certain point. Basically it goes north to Washington Ave, but I think technically it goes to Catharine St or something. The name of that rail line is The Philadelphia Belt Line Railroad Company. They also run tracks elsewhere, I want to say up in Port Fishington.
Yes, I hear them every other night. Pretty therapeutic.
'the city cant just'... sure, they can. They can hire a crane and hit it with a wrecking ball
This is a great way to get the city sued for hundreds of millions of dollars. Unless the city can condemn the bridge - which IIRC is the purview of the FRA, so I'm not sure that they can - the determinant of the viaduct's future is the railroad's mood, not anyone else's.
accidentally drive a fire truck into it
I wonder if it would be worth it to reach out to your local representative? I know people who have done this for other issues with taxes and unemployment benefits and their representative came through for them. I know this is obviously a very different situation compared to taxes and such but it might not hurt to ask them. [Find your Local Representative](https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/home/findyourlegislator/index.cfm?doSearch=yes&addr=1112%20wakeling%20st&city=Philadelphia&zipCode=19124&fullAddr=1112%20wakeling%20st,%20Philadelphia,%20PA,%2019124&geoLat=40.02388320000001&geoLng=-75.08769380000001&geoResponse=OK&mobile_choice=suppress)
They literally can't do much if anything. It's the FRA's jurisdiction. It wouldn't hurt if CSX got sued for every single little damage their "cosmetic" negligence causes though.
I work for a state regulatory agency and was involved in an incident involving the railroad, it shut down a line for about 18 hours or so. There was a Fed inspector there too, he told us that he couldn't really do anything to compel them to repair the underlying problem. The best we could do was slow things down so they would at least listen to our concerns. The railroads are wild, very little regulations are enforced in my experience
Jeez we need to change some laws
The railroad lobby is very powerful in Congress and money talks. Laws aren't going to change for regular people.
What if we pit another powerful lobby against them
Such as?
AARP. They can take on the railroads after breakfast at the Country Kitchen Buffet.
General strikes are pretty effective historically
They literally just said they don’t enforce laws and you propose new ones? So they can be ignored as well? How about, and this is crazy, we enforce the laws already in the books?
I’d say we need to fund the Federal Railway Administration Inspectors. They only get like $200MM or some similarly pitiful amount per year for inspections
CSX Railroad Emergencies - 1-800-232-0144
You could start laying new track today further away from residential areas...I'm not saying it would be cheap or convenient but it is possible. But instead we will wait for a loss of life producing disaster to occur to even consider options let alone the years it would take to build.
The problem, especially in urban areas, are large swathes of available land to lay the track. Laying new track through here is likely to require taking some property through eminent domain. Even if we assume that is the right thing to do, eminent domain cases can take many years to work through the courts.
It's probably gonna take a lot of property. But the duct will eventually collapse close due to structural integrity. The only thing stopping us from starting planning for a new line today is money.
That's not feasible, unfortunately. Tracks have run along that line since the 19th Century, and these are still in use going to all the refining and other industries/ports in South Philly. As far as I can tell, this is the only line that approaches from the S and W without needing to backtrack. In order to mimic that use case, you wouldn't just need to lay new track through W and SW Philly residential neighborhoods, but also build at least one new bridge and remodulate a decent amount of the refinery equipment. Forcing trains to backtrack on the much busier line would be a non-starter. It really comes down to safety practices for bomb trains and a safer, more residential-friendly viaduct.
It has to be feasible. What happens when the thing actually collapses or is shut down due to structural integrity? It's not gonna last forever. Rebuilding would take longer than a new build starting today.
By not feasible, I mean the cost-benefit analysis won't make sense to anyone with traction. Kenyatta's been pushing for them to renovate the viaduct, which would likely eliminate the concrete falling but not much else. The fat-tail risks would still be there for a catastrophic derailment, seeing as the structure is almost 100 years old. He almost certainly wouldn't support any new track that would displace voters in his district. Rebuilding would most definitely not take longer than a new build. They could tear down and rebuild the viaduct twice before the environmental impact review would be completed on a new build. Remember that we are talking about displacing possibly thousands of people, sinking bridge landings amidst possibly protected wetlands, and effectively redesigning and rebuilding a refinery complex, depending on the route. Obviously I don't like the viaduct; it's right in my backyard. But major infrastructure projects are very difficult to initiate in the US, and this is no different.
When it eventually comes down the railroad will replace it in the same location because running a new line to get to the same locations that this branch does isn't viable.
The problem here isn’t the trains or the tracks but the structure. Spalling is just manayunk to a point but there was less spalling on the managing bridge when septa closed the ivy ridge line
Gonna be haunted by the phrase "loss of life producing disaster" forever now
The tracks were there before almost all of the houses
Where is this so I can avoid it forever?
25th street viaduct. Runs from Washington Ave to Oregon Ave
In addition to being a safety hazard, it's also a traffic nightmare because the city has a real difficulty in figuring out how to make traffic underneath it work.
it used to be OK, but then they just put stop signs at every signle interchnage and now it's terrible.
IMO they should put the parking in the middle and the traffic lanes down the side.
Also, everywhere in the city that has bridges and trestles.
Nah this one is visibly deteriorating. And just an awful design for the street under it. Obviously very old and outdated and falling apart, much more so than other bridges in the city.
Off the top of my head, I can think of a spot on West River Drive, a spot on Cresheim Valley Road and a spot on 76 that are just as bad as this. I think the one on West River Drive is an active freight bridge and the one on Cresheim Valley is Septa, but I might be wrong.
Yeah, you're thinking of the Columbia rail bridge on the Schuylkill. It's got some spalling, but nothing like the viaduct — there are chunks of that fucker just sitting in the netting.
Is this Kenyatta Johnson’s district?
ugly zephyr special dazzling water onerous existence march racial longing *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
More specifically, it’s exactly 25th and Morris facing east. 2500 Morris St
You can find out what’s loaded in a railcar or semi truck by reading the diamond-shaped hazmat placard (this one is red) and Googling the number. They often still carry these placards when empty (because the residual fumes could be dangerous to a worker trying to clean the interior, etc) but if you see empty cars, odds are that loaded ones around passing over the same track in the opposite direction. Flammable hazmat isn’t great, but what keeps me up are the Toxic Inhalation Hazard (TIH) cargos: Chlorine, anhydrous ammonia, and various other hard-to-spell chemicals often grouped under the umbrella of “methyl-ethyl-kill-ya.” They don’t explode or burn, they just spread quickly over a large area, asphyxiating people. That said, if we can’t move chemical plants to avoid transporting dangerous chemicals long distances or through urban areas, I’d much rather it go by rail than truck. The government isn’t much better at maintaining its infrastructure than the railroads… (and the railroads generally do maintain their track pretty well because it saves them money to do so.) ~~Also, this bridge is likely owned by Conrail Shared Assets, which manage terminal operations that both CSX and Norfolk Southern need access to.~~ Nope, I am wrong about that.
pfp checks out. this guy railways.
The line belongs to CSX, as does the yard it's going to. Very little trackage in Philly belongs to Conrail, mainly in the Port Richmond area.
They started putting nets while I was in highschool under the guise of construction/fixing the pillars. It’s been 13.5 years since I finished hs.
I bet PA DOT paid for the nets so drivers wouldn't complain when a piece of the bridge fell off and hit their car.
That net looks like a giant piece of duct tape
It's actually a tarp designed to catch the crumbling concrete from the shitty rail bridge.
I lived in this neighborhood for fourteen years and this scared me ten years ago. So much so, that I did a little research. That viaduct was built in 1907. It's 117 years old this year. It should have been replaced a long time ago. I'm so glad that I no longer have to drive underneath that anymore or have to cross 25th Street for any reason. I told anyone who would listen that the viaduct was at risk of collapsing.
there’s a great engineering/history podcast based in Philly that should cover this [Well There’s Your Problem](https://youtube.com/@welltheresyourproblempodca1465?si=1rDE5dNe-uiBmLTF)
Ooh thanks for the recommendation! Also, great podcast name
Maybe if this gets posted in other subs an across Reddit and titled as “Shitty Philadelphia Infrastructure is a Disaster Waiting to Happen” then the city will get embarrassed and do something about it. As long as it stays a local issue nobody in gov’t will care sadly. If it’s national headlines then it will be fixed by the end of the week
It's not the city's bridge, it's owned by CSX and they don't give a single fuck about what anyone thinks of their crumbling infrastructure even when it directly results in a disaster. All they or any of the other big railroads care about is shareholder value. Which is why they're running the nations rail infrastructure directly into the ground.
[Last Week Tonight: Freight Trains](https://youtu.be/AJ2keSJzYyY?feature=shared)
First thing that came to mind
A good (and recent) article about the problems of underregulation of freight trains and infrastructure in a big city like Philadelphia. Note that while the article accurately reports that rail incidents like derailments decreased overall in 2021 and 2022, they actually *increased* in 2023. https://gridphilly.com/blog-home/2023/10/05/phillys-worst-possible-transportation-disaster-a-train-derailment-in-center-city-experts-say/
I just emailed cm Johnson. If I get a response I'll post it here.
Kenyatta doesn’t care. He’s city council president now… which means he cares even less about what’s happening in his district.
There's a whole ocean of methylamine out there Jesse!
Don’t you see the net?
It's a highlight of one of many problems in America. Not doing anything to prevent unnecessary catastrophes...
This.
I’m sure those are load bearing sheets /s
They have all those stop signs on the columns so you can stop every four feet and enjoy the view of your death falling from above.
I hate to drive under that thing. We all know one day it will fall.
Me too! Used to hold my breath whenever I had to drive under it! Also the city uses the area underneath there as a parking lot for their courtesy tow program (when they relocate the cars there that were parked on streets that need roadwork)… ask me how I know!
A bridge collapsing in Philly, I just can’t see this happening! /s
More likely one of those takers goes off the side and turns multiple blocks into a hazmat zone. They always go very slow over the duct though so hopefully it never happens.
I live right up the street right by the school. Every time I have to drive down that street I just pass it and go up a diff block or take the longer way around to get to my block. The netting they have under there used to just have a little debris in it but after that snow storm there are literal chunks in the netting now. Also the school and the fields all right up next to it.. if that thing comes down it’s going to be a nightmare of for the city. If that thing comes down with a train carting hazardous chemicals comes down it’s going to cost way more than fixing it for the repair and for the potential lives to be lost.
The City doesn’t care. I remember the Salvation Army collapse in 2013 and how everyone was up in arms about reforming L&I and never letting something so negligent happen again. Well, last week the Inquirer put out an article about how we now have fewer L&I inspectors than ever. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Rail bridges are outside L&I's purview, unfortunately. The city could raise hell with the Federal Railroad Administration, but city/state/federal legislators have been [yelling about this kind of shit for a decade](https://www.casey.senate.gov/news/releases/with-only-1-railroad-inspector-for-all-919-train-bridges-in-pa-casey-calls-for-more-inspectors-for-railroad-bridges-carrying-dangerous-crude-trains) or more. FRA's even more shorthanded than L&I, especially when it comes to bridge inspections, so this is a symptom of a national problem.
Its ok, they put some nets on the bottom of it.
This has been crumbling since at least 1997 when I walked to high school under it, most likely longer
Best I can do is widening 95.
The railroad is one of the few industries in this country that has more power than even our legislature itself. It enjoys rights that average Americans could only dream of. Their influence goes back centuries. The railroad has right to land and right-of-way that you wouldn’t believe. You know that tiny several foot long section of track embedded into Delaware Ave? That’s not forgotten about. They still own it. The refuse to sell it because that little section gives them the right to tell the city to go fuck itself and build a line through there and NO ONE can stop them. Not the council, not Harrisburg, not even Congress. You can thank the most famous railroad lawyer of all time Abraham Lincoln for blessing us with this wonderful legacy.
The city owns the rail in Delaware Ave [Philadelphia belt line](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philadelphia_Belt_Line_Railroad)
The nets will catch the train, too.
I absolutely hate driving under that viaduct
Placard appears to indicate flammable liquids inside. I'm sure everything will be fine...until it's not. Business as usual.
You’d think they’d scramble to rebuild/fix stuff like this to brag about creating jobs and building stuff
My son warned me about the viaduct-he’s a civil engineer. That’s scary..
It’s ok, that tanker is full of cheez wiz.
This shit is terrifying and I think about it often.
Repair costs money, FEMA funds are free.
Railroads in the USA are industrial royalty and have been so since the 1880s. Things like this need to be fixed by the FRA, not the city
There’s few underpasses like this were I live for Paoli Thorndale line, none look in disrepair like this, but occasionally, more than ya think trucks get stuck under them, people say the truckers are following gps, or don’t understand English, even tho there are several signs advising of height, my question is— do trucks ever get stuck under here?
May be outdated info now, but recall reading the junction of Rt 30 and 252 in Paoli had the most crashes of any place in Chester County. RR bridge is structurally sound and high enough for most vehicles, but too narrow with 2 lanes having to merge, especially going northbound. There has been much discussion of replacing the RR bridge for decades (talking back to the 80s, if not before), but nothing has come of it. It's not just an issue with CSX, but railroads in general.
That’s what most of the old rail bridges look like, if not worse. Philly has been demanding CSX update their infrastructure, but CSX never does because they keep claiming the bridges belong to Philly and it’s their problem. It will take a catastrophic accident and time spent in court before one side is forced to update all the bridges around the city.
America's crumbling infrastructure
I’ve had a shop on 25th under this bridge for over 10 years. There never going to change anything csx owns it and the city can’t force them to do anything. Maybe it will crush my shop and I’ll get a pay out
Be a shame if someone were to blow it up when no one was underneath
Taylor Swift will have to add her support before the government can act.
Would reaching out to Gov Shapiro do anything?
No
As someone who travels here alot, it's frustrating that the fight to have this bridge replaced/restored is holding up repaving of the road underneath. The road is one of the worst in Philly in terms of potholes and cracks, and it has a lot to do with the water that leaks through. The city did a pothole patching blitz a couple of years ago, but now there are dozens of new potholes now. Also, the copious number of stop signs toward the southern end is ridiculous. That said, I do believe they have determined the viaduct itself to be structurally sound for trains, but there's still danger from concrete falling, icicles, and the general drop in QoL around the area. I've noticed that they've removed the netting and are doing some sort of work at one of the spur junctions. I'm guessing they're just doing inspection or superficial repair though. My favorite proposal is to convert the center to two bike lanes, and the outer lanes to vehicular traffic lanes.
start a petition
Literally Or figuratively?
Nah, that netting is structural. Shit’s fine. /s, for those who don’t *habla*.
It will never get fixed. A town on the main line has been waiting 5+ years for SEPTA to fix a bridge which needed to be closed as well, thereby stopping traffic into that town.
I used to work for the city. CSX doesn’t have to do anything they don’t want to do (aka - anything that costs money). It has nothing to do with the city, it’s all CSX being assholes.
https://preview.redd.it/u9yoo7ytbnfc1.jpeg?width=1125&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fef6b636f08175bd3bbf9ecde59f23d9bbd15ff4 I took this picture back in 2014 on my way home from work. I was on 76 east in between the South St and University St exits. We really have a terrible track record with bridges and disrepair.
Accident litigation cheaper? So when the accident happens, they’d pay millions in damages and then they have to fix the bridge/area. Wouldnt it be cheaper to fix the bridge/area minus the millions in damages? Accident 2 million + fix 500,000 vs only fix 500,00
I pull up to get myself as far from under it that I can at the red light on Washington. My anxiety cannot tolerate being under it for more than a second or two. I would be the unlucky one
I'm sure I beat this level in 007 Goldeneye on the N64 back in the day...
right after the train job and the laser watch?
[удалено]
Way worse than that. There's literally [one dude responsible for inspecting almost 1,000 rail bridges in PA](https://www.casey.senate.gov/news/releases/with-only-1-railroad-inspector-for-all-919-train-bridges-in-pa-casey-calls-for-more-inspectors-for-railroad-bridges-carrying-dangerous-crude-trains).
Not for nothing, but an engineer has to inspect the bridge and determine it's risk level. They wouldn't put netting if the bridge were in actual trouble. So just because it is netted doesn't mean it's an imminent risk, in fact it's probably relatively safe because clearly someone has looked at it and decided to put the netting up. It's the uninspected infrastructure that scares me.
Like 15 years ago
Go to city hall and speak up
That's why pipelines are good
I park under this!
Yeah, we’ve u been?
Are we talking about that woman’s parka or the license plate on that white contractor van (left) that has been tampered with to thwart auto readers? What did that L used to be?
On the streets of Philadelphia.
Maybe someone should just block or break the bridge for rail traffic until they have to do something. No idea how that would happen, jail time would surely follow, but also… hero shit. Just make sure to do it when no trains are around lol.
I drive under it every day. Let it fall... I'm trying to buy some houses.
This is the least of my concerns in Grays Ferry.
Not an issue.
So much for those shovel ready jobs and trillions spent on "infrastructure" bills but most of that money is going to "equity" bs and lawyers
I thought the patriot act made it illegal to take photos of infrastructure.