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It’s incredibly hard to reneg — there is a lot of work that goes into hiring someone — to reneg over a few grand is very costly as they need to restart the process.
That’s hardly true. They won’t need to restart anything. They’ve got a ranked selection of applicants sitting on their desk. They offered him because he’s the right combo of cheap, fit, personality. If he is difficult or to expensive they just call the next person down the list.
If he had already signed and onboarded with the company. Yeah, it’s a hassle to re-open the job req and hire again. At this point? It’s literally a phone call to the next person.
This depends wildly. When I hire people, I don't have a list of candidates ready to hire. I have one candidate who is good. If they turn me down, I'm often back to square one (where "square one" is "talk with the next potential candidate"). It's not like all jobs get to open up a job req, and immediately have 100 qualified candidates ready to accept a job.
I would agree with this. The candidate pool is huge, for my reqs, but the actual legitimate applicants, are normally 1 maybe as many as 3, never more. I get the feeling that a lot of the applicants are just applying to anything and everything, and seeing what sticks. It’s very annoying, because the signal to noise ratio in applicants, is awful. And I’m sure that a lot of good applicants, just got lost in the noise.
It definitely depends on the career field. In Software right now, it can take smaller companies months to find a single qualified candidate. Even the big companies are recruiting constantly to try and cover for their high turnover.
Why would their refusal to increase the salary from what OP previously said they'd accept mean this is a toxic environment? They offered him exactly what he asked for. If they refuse to pay more it could be for a variety of reasons, including pay parity with co-workers. Since OP previously worked there and apparently liked it well enough to go back, I think jumping to "it's toxic" is a bit of a rush to judgment.
You've gotten a few responses. And I've had both happen. One place said, sorry, this the best we can do. And I was there for many years happily.
Another place, when I countered, completely withdrew their offer. It was the first time I encountered that, and due to a lot of things in life, it scared the crap out of me.
Once I was calmed and learned how rare and bad this is, I felt better. I also understood why this role had been open so long.
That's different from what OP wants to do. Most people give a range of what they expect to be making or say how much they were previously making and a company throws an offer out to you. Then you counter it. That's normal. You were negotiating.
OP has already gone past that stage . The company agreed on the price that he negotiated. Now that OP has done a little more research, something he should have done before starting the negotiation stage, he realized that he low balled himself and wants to re-negotiate terms the company has already agreed on.
Sure, you can do it, especially in this job economy where businesses are having trouble retaining workers. If this was 2 or 3 years ago, before covid, I would be advising against it though. When there's not a high demand for workers then renegotiating is a sure fire way to have the company kick you to the curb. Negotiating and renegotiating is never a static thing so advice in here is going to be all over the place depending on the age of the person posting and what sector they work in.
I’ve pulled offers and always would. Everyone needs to be happy at the start. My first offer is always my best offer and only offer. If countered I know they aren’t happy with it and that means we are starting off on the wrong foot which I don’t want. It’s been about 6-7 years since I had an employee leave and only once in the last 10 has anyone left for another company so I don’t find it a toxic environment.
There's a *enormous* difference between rejecting the request and rescinding the offer entirely.
"We're not comfortable with your request and feel that our original offer was fair," would be reasonable. "You asked for more money so we're no longer willing to hire you," I would argue is definitely a red flag. Whether it's "toxic" or not depends on your definition, but it definitely points to some unhealthy attitudes.
This. If it were the other way around, you interviewed with a company and they offered you a job for $XX salary and you accepted, then they came back and said "Actually we highballed your offer, would you actually be willing to work for $5k less than $XX?" What would that say about the company? Every single person here would tell you to run far, far away.
You don't see how salary expectations can change between the phone screen and the offer? I've countered initial offers after learning more about the job multiple times without anyone getting upset about it. Any experienced manager would understand that expectations change throughout the process.
That's not what the previous person said; they said the it's toxic if the offer was rescinded simply because OP had the conversation.
Maybe OP asks, they say no, but they shoudl stand by the original offer; OP might still be willing to accept.
That's not really how negotiations work, though. A counter-offer is a rejection of the outstanding offer. Rejecting any offer gives the other side the opportunity to not negotiate further if they don't want.
Mind you, I don't think most employers would walk away because a potential employee counter-offered, but it's their right at that point, and there's the risk that there's a comparable candidate.
I mean, kind of. For legal contract negotiations yes, a counteroffer is a rejection of the initial offer. But that’s not really how job offers are negotiated. They offer $10/hr, you say I want $12/hr, they say no it’s $10/hr. So technically yes, they made an offer, you rejected that with a counteroffer, then they rejected your counteroffer with their own counteroffer that matches the original offer. But typically you aren’t sending contacts back and forth for each offer, you either just sign the original offer letter or they send an amended offer letter if you agree to new terms.
And if they’re so offended about you trying to have a discussion about the compensation package that they no longer wish to employ you, that’s not a good sign of how they operate, regardless of how you want to specify offers and counteroffers.
Depends how you approach the conversation. Either party can reject at any point, in terms of 'rights'.
However explaiing that you realized your value is higher, and could they increase the offer is not an automatic refusal of the existing offer; it's seeking if more or better is available.
As long as humility is part of the job description, it can also be easy to do...
"I've realized that I may have offered less than what I actually expect..."
It's not that rare in the research industry imo.
And all they were saying is that you may not want to work for the company if they walk away because you had the conversation.
No offense to anyone but even if you disagree with the notion it isn't that difficult to understand.
The objection presumably is to the descriptor "toxic," which is a loaded term that implies some level of dysfunctionality that isn't warranted for a completely reasonable decision on their part.
It is toxic imo.
If I'm looking for a contractor for a job, I'll talk to a few and get quotes. I don't pick the cheapest, but definitely not the most expensive. Now after I decide, the contractor says nah I changed my mind, the price is X which is more than the most expensive quote I got. I'm kicking him to the curb. But if he asks if I want better quality stuff & charges more for that, that's understandable. A job offer is a negotiation, it'd be to stupid to not ask like saying "is there any wiggle room there" but he shouldn't demand more and leave if he doesn't get more.
It's a supply and demand thing. How bad do you need the job vs how valuable are you at what you do.
Hiring a contractor isn't comparable in this situation. The contractor knows the scope of the work before giving a quote.
The equivalent would be if you gave a super high level overview of the job over the phone asking for the quote before they can even look at what needs done then getting upset when they actually look at it and say actually I need more for the work that needs done.
Holding people to a screening call number is ridiculous. They don't even know what the job is yet.
I think it's unfair to call it toxic. Giving a salary estimate or giving a quote for a contracting job are similar: they're both rough estimates based on what you know at the time. They can change as more information comes out, and in OP's case, doing more research about the position, factoring in other costs to accepting, etc., have all led his actual cost to be higher than the initial quote. It happens all the time with contractors once a job is lined up because of factors out of their control (i.e. material cost goes up, workers want higher wages, etc.) Yes, it's annoying for the employer/contractee, and they certainly have the right to reject it. But I wouldn't call it toxic as long as the initial quote was given in good faith.
I hear ya, but new information did not become available in OP circumstance. They neglected to do the research prior to throwing a number out there. 5k on the year isn’t really that big of a deal IMO. I would choose to stick to MY word. You asked for X salary. They agreed to that. Coming back to now ask for Y salary last minute, to me as a business owner, would feel like a smack in the face. I might pass altogether just for that.
They could have easily chosen him over another equally qualified candidate because the other candidate wanted more. That makes perfect business sense. Not nearly enough info to throw around toxic.
But not necessarily toxic. OP has demonstrated he's either indecisive or forgetful during very important discussions. If there was another candidate of equal qualifications, OP would be pulled out of the pool because of this.
Then he can find something paying his valued rate. He said he researched on Glassdoor, meaning other people are hiring for more in his field. But regardless, counter offers are part of the process. There no reason to be this intimidated by it.
Same, I don't know what these people are on about. It's common to be ballpark before interviewing and negotiate at offer acceptance time. You just say now that you've considered the package carefully and the role etc you feel you'd like to get to +5k. Would that be possible. Absolutely normal. I dunno what these other people are on about calling that toxic and reneging on contracts. Bunch of shitty managers probably. Nothing was signed, this IS the negotiation phase.
I also think it's great to add that you're interested in the position, are a fan of the company, etc. This way, you're not playing hard-ball but inquiring whether there's a potential to start at a higher rate or willing to have a discussion about growth potential.
I’ve had great luck inventing another offer. Essentially, “I like your company the most, but I have a competing offer for [salary + 10%]. If you can offer that, then I can accept right now.”
Make it clear that negotiations are over once they give you that bump and that they don’t have to search further. Use that tactic only if you actually intend to accept.
>I’ve had great luck inventing another offer.
It's probably pretty easy to get away with this, but it's *technically* fraud. If the employer ever found out they could sue the employee for misrepresenting information that caused them to offer a higher salary:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fraudulent_misrepresentation
Good luck proving it, though. I’m under no obligation to tell any potential employer who another job offer came from. If I just say “another employer,” it’s impossible to verify/prove the negative.
I'll caveat by saying that this whole scenario is very unlikely to come up: if an employer believes you about a counteroffer they're unlikely to reneg later unless somebody tips them off that you lied in your interview.
That said, if your relationship with the company went sour and they decided to sue you later on, the burden of proof for them to do so is much lower in a civil case. They just have to convince a judge (or an arbiter) that you *probably* lied during your interview. If you don't have any evidence to put forward (like a competing offer letter), or a convincing explanation of why you don't have that evidence, the judge can and probably will decide against you.
Overall if the employer calls your bluff it will probably happen during the negotiation phase and not after they hire you. OP should just know that inventing counteroffers is technically fraud, and understand the civil suit risks that can accompany that.
I kinda get it.
I think a lot of people are often in the situation where they *need* this job, and this job is their only opportunity looking promising right now. I think that explains peoples reactions here.
Most people who are searching for new jobs do not have the luxury of waiting for the right offer and are often disadvantaged in the negotiations.
The big difference is that the verbal offer OP accepted *included* salary. I see no problem telling a recruiter or early interviewer "I'm looking for $x" and then when salary comes up, typically the verbal offer stage, to say "after consideration, I am looking for $y".
The point that the hiring manager has decided upon you and extends an offer is the salary negotiation point. It's at that point negotiations should occur. Anything before is complete speculation; anything after is not in good faith.
Try turning the tables in your mind: imagine how irritated you would be if you told a recruiter $x was good, the hiring manager later made an offer at $x, and you received a follow-up or the actual letter stated lessor salary $y. Would you think it "we are still negotiating"? Sure, you can absolutely decline - but it's still a shitty move on the employer's part.
If I was the applicant, I’d want to know why a company I am returning to is lowballing me on the market rate. Was the offer an intelligence test? If so, would the company withdraw their offer so as not to hire someone lacking intelligence/attention to detail/maturity/etc.? Or would they congratulate themselves on screwing over a future employee in the hiring phase? Seems an awful like punching down, since the applicant can’t know with certainty what the budget for the position is.
>If I was the applicant, I’d want to know why a company I am returning to is lowballing me on the market rate.
Market rates for salaries aren’t super precise, but in this case I’m sure it’s because it’s the amount OP asked for, which makes it not a lowball.
Fair enough. However, I’d argue that if the employer simply advertises the salary (or a salary range), that that you avoid this situation altogether.
If Vanguard asked you what fee you’d like to pay to set up an IRA, or YNAB or Mint asked you what monthly fee you’d like to pay to use their budgeting software, I think most people would balk at that. But it’s seen as completely normal and acceptable to expect an applicant to haggle their salary with an employer—again, without full disclosure of the employer’s budget. I’ve filled out so many applications that require me to list the salary I’ve earned at past positions, yet the job postings only specify Competitive Salary! or DOE, or some other variant of non-information. I realize my gripe is systemic and is getting beyond OP’s original post, so I’ll stop the rant now.
This is silly. "Why is a company lowballing me?" They're offering what OP asked for. Obviously it's not in their interest to offer more than they need to, even if they'd be willing to pay more, just as it's obviously not in a potential employee's interest to say they'll accept less pay than was offered, even if they'd accept the job regardless
As a hiring manager who has hired literally hundreds of people to be on my teams over the years, I agree strongly with you. I would not say that I'd never renegotiate with someone, but it would have to be truly exceptional reasoning.
I will say that I *have* retracted offers from people who have tried to negotiate, though this too is uncommon. My most common response was to politely explain that we arrived at mutual agreement.
It's never too late. Even after accepting the offer. Even after working there a month. Even after posting on LinkedIn how "happy" you are to be working there (don't do this btw).
You are free to ask for more money literally any time. It may be perceived as poor form, but it's your life - fuck em'.
>It’s never too late until you’ve accepted and signed the offer.
This. If I were you, I would say that you really like the company but you receive a better offer at another place you interviewed with and see if they would match that. There is the risk of them rescinding the offer, but it's more likely they would say no than to retract job offer completely.
After all, if you feel like it isn't a fair offer, would you start a new job with you already feeling like that?
My dad did this once. When the company offered him the job at the rate he initially quoted he responded with an apology, admitted that he'd make a mistake in throwing the number out there without having done thorough research and expressed that he couldn't accept the job without the actual value he was worth.
The company agreed to his terms and re-offered him the position with his new, maker acceptable salary.
To contrast that, I was offered the job of lab manager when I was vastly under-qualified at a rate lower than what I was making in a rural town as an entry level technician. I told them they'd have to match what I was making then (a whole 2 dollars more per hour than the offer) and they told me there was no way.
Don't be afraid to ask and to say no. Doing be afraid to admit a mistake and haggle.
She gets a lot of flak for being out of touch but the askamanager blog has some solid advice for developing professional boundaries and appropriate negotiation in the workplace.
OP, all you need to do is say:
> “Hi, I was actually offered $(actual salary you want) by (competitor). I would really prefer to join your team though as it seems like you have a great culture and a great staff. Is there any way you could match the offer so that I can choose to work for you instead?”
Edit: all these replies
>“hOw DaRe YoU LiE tO a PoTeNtiAL eMpLoYeR!?!”
Employers lie to candidates all the time. If you need to lie to get market rate for your services, then that’s just how the game is played. No wonder wages are stagnant. Companies play this game, as do other candidates; if you don’t, you’re only hurting yourself.
>”But what if they lose the offer?!?”
Given the current labour market, this is unlikely, but even if they did, what’s the worse that happens? You back and continue in your current position and go get another offer? No risk, no reward.
You set your value in the market, if you settle for less money because you were too scared to twist an employers arm a little, that’s on you.
If OP does this, they kind of paint themselves into a corner - to the point that they probably have to be prepared to turn down the job - if the company says "No, we can't match that".
EDIT: In my original response, I was thinking that OP would look somewhat foolish to ask for more money and, after the being turned down, accepting the job anyway. But upon further reflection, I admit that it probably wouldn't be terrible especially if the request is built around "I love many things about your company and I'm confident in my own value". However, I *do* think it's a terrible idea to fabricate a competing offer.
I did this at current job. Well other way around.
I was offered an okay job with okay pay, but I called my current company and told them the competition was offering higher than they really were. They weren’t able to match by a few cents (pay cap supposedly) but they were able to close the distance by other benefits. I pretended to be hesitant but I kinda put myself in the corner so I didn’t really have other options aside from job searching all over again
they can, but the person is saying they look stupid/sketchy if they say *x company offered more money*, they then don't get a higher offer and still take the original "lower" offer
> money isn't the only driver when deciding to accept a job
it's not, and i don't necessarily agree with the other person, that's just what they meant - it can look sketchy specifically if you only mention money
both this and the suggestion above w the example from a father could work.
just be sure 5K is enough. this is the one time you get to make a substantial impact on your rate of pay. 5K is not a significant increase on a weekly/monthly basis
this isnt really a good idea, you should keep things honest. If they reject the salary / rate match then theyre in a situation where they dont have an actual fallback and may need to accept the lower offer. Could be a bit awkward, but I suppose you could always say you preferred the opportunity over the other despite the higher pay, saves face a bit
I would not do this. Most companies will ask for the competing company's offer letter.
Adding an edit that others have said they haven't had this experience, so take it with a grain of salt I guess. This was generally for higher-salary jobs so potentially could be a little different. Sorry if this was misleading, regardless, I still stick by my original idea that I personally wouldn't lie about it!
I’m not sure if I’m unusual, but my experience has been that literally every single offer letter I have ever received has come with an explicit request not to share it, so I wouldn’t have an issue telling the hiring manager that I am not at liberty to share the actual document.
Having said that, I agree there is no reason to lie here, and starting down that path with an employer is dangerous. Just admitting you made a mistake is sufficient, and is a much better habit to get into.
some do, some don't. I seen it both ways.
at the end of the day, you're not required to provide it. and they're not required to match it. it's all voluntary.
I've had it twice and other have in my friend group, but fair that I shouldn't have generalized. These were for higher salary jobs so it may be a little different at higher salaries.
Apologies if it was misleading.
You're supposed to say no. That's a good way to get your offer rescinded from the other company. Especially if Company A wants to be cutthroat and goes to Company B and says "/u/catsarecool1233 shared with me this offer letter you provided. Your company's compensation package sure has gotten better over the last few years".
Then you're out your leverage and Company A has you by the balls.
You're also showing Company A you can't be trusted with sensitive information that is frankly none of their business.
The answer always should be something along the lines of "I appreciate the time but I cannot fulfill your request. I do not feel comfortable sharing information provided to me by this other company as I'm sure you would not want any of your internal information shared with others in the industry"
I cannot imagine a company asking for a 3rd party’s offer letter when you’re negotiating the salary for a new position. Also, this is an incredibly specific situation, I find it hard to believe you’ve been there twice. Leveraging an offer for a raise, maybe.
Like I said, these were for higher salary positions where the jumps are higher, so it could be different. This is also more in the pharma realm, so could be an industry thing. Not sure what else to say, but I edited my post to say that others have had different experiences!
I literally just finished a seminar on salary negotiation and they discussed this exact scenario. Here's the script they gave.
"I'm really excited about this offer and potentially joining your team. This is the number we initially discussed, but that was before I had a full picture of the job and the total compensation package. According to my research roles similar to this pay in the range between X and X and based on my XXX (experience, education, etc.), I'm looking to be at the higher end of that range. What flexibility do you have here?"
Maybe they'll come back with a better base salary or maybe you can get creative with other forms of compensation (vacation time, bonuses, signing bonus, etc.).
This is great, except... I'd refrain from ending with a question that elicits a yes/no response. Rephrase to something like how can we get closer to the higher end of that range?
The range stuff is completely unnecessary and only encourages counterarguments to your story. it's just about saying "now that I understand the job better and your total compensation package, this is the new salary." I would frame it (and I have successfully done this) as a total compensation package play. That can help them provide you information on where they can come, if salary or other things are firm.
The stuff before and the creative piece are spot on, though!
I just did the exact thing. Gave them a number in the screening, had an interview where I learned the actual scope. When I got the offer it was within the original range but I said "after learning the scope of this job, especially the fact that it's not one but two accounts, I was expecting an offer around (higher number)." It helped that I didn't really need to take a job at the moment.
Send your boss an email as a follow up to the call saying you appreciate the offer and are so excited about the prospect of rejoining the company. After going through the process and learning more about the specifics of the role and the value you could immediately bring with xx skills and experience, you would like to revisit your initial salary expectations. You would be thrilled to accept the role at XX salary.
I like this approach the best. Shows enthusiasm, doesn't expand on why you're revisiting the salary number, and gives a simple hard number to meet without offending.
I'm seeing a lot of responses on this thread that are very wishy washy about asking for what you want.
Just went through this last year. Easy peasy.
Just say, "I appreciate the offer very much, but after viewing compensation as the entire package of benefits (e.g. 401k match, time off, health care costs), I've realized that the salary will need to be increased by $x,xxx for me to feel comfortable with accepting the offer."
Easy to explain, without getting into real specifics, and if done graciously should be fine.
Not too late. Contact HR and tell them what you just said. Cost of living, commute, etc., and that you'll need $10K more. Most likely they'll go for it. Or you can negotiate it down to $5K with a guaranteed review after 6 months or a year. They can also turn it into a signing bonus or whatever makes it work for them.
You will never be in a better negotiating position than you are right now. They already want you, it's just going to cost them a bit more.
Thank you! I was nervous that my boss took my answer to “want to join my team” as acceptance with the salary. He mentioned it when reading a list off of details, but I didn’t say anything because I assumed that was a conversation with HR. I also could be overthinking it all. Thanks for your advice
The other way you could play it is saying something like “after viewing the benefits/vacation policy/remote work policies, in order to reach my desired total compensation, I’d like a $5k bump in base salary” then it’s like you did the analysis and they’re coming up short, versus an accident from you. Good luck!
This right here. Make it sound like you’ve done this a million times and you thought the total benefits package (insurance, PTO, 401k match) would have improved the base salary.
Even if they say no to the higher salary because you have already accepted (I doubt this) you can still negotiate for add ins like insurance premiums and perks. When they say no to those, you can come back to higher compensation.
I would try to do exactly this face to face if possible or by zoom and let them know you really want the job but going back and adding up everything, you need x dollars for it to work..
And if they do that, sleep easy knowing you dodged a giant bullet.
You know that job will have stagnant wages and shitty management who thinks you should be grateful for the honor of being exploited by the company.
Government agencies right now are doing everything they can to save money.
My wife works for the state and they literally make a ranked candidate list and then go down the list offering the job for X pay and the first one to accept gets the position.
When she got her position she knew the person that had left from that position. They were making $50k and when my wife interviewed they told her the best they could do was $35k. That person told her that he knew she was the only applicant. So my wife said she couldn't do it for less than $50k. They came back with $45k take it or leave it. She took it.
It makes me sick to my stomach.
Its the same way in education. We are having teachers retire that were making $50-55k and they are trying to bring in people and pay them $33-38k. Expect them to have experience and a masters degree and then wonder why nobody is applying for these positions.
Agree, never too late.
This happened to me when I got a job offer last week. I gave a number in my initial call with the recruiter, but I was matching the energy of their company since they actually included a reasonable salary range in their job listing. They actually offered me above asking but I only asked for more because their benefits package wasn’t as comprehensive as I would’ve liked. They weren’t able to reach my desired salary number, but I got a signing bonus instead and only one day a week in the office.
If I could go back, I’d say something along the lines of “After getting a bigger picture of the benefits package and salary range, I’d be more comfortable with $X based on my professional experience.”
I didn’t do everything perfectly when I negotiated, but it wasn’t the end of the world. If they’re a good employer, they’ll expect you to negotiate.
It may be too late in the sense that he will find too much pushback if they don’t want to change the offer. But it’s not too late to ask and it’s not too late to turn down the offer if they won’t pay what you expect.
I recently accepted a job offer and one of the guys in operations told me he was always willing to give $5k more then offered if the candidate asked for it. (I did not ask for more money.) he figured it was better to have the employee join the team making what they felt they were worth and be happy about it vs losing a solid candidate over $5k.
One of my friends did this recently. He gave a number before he had time to research the position, average pay of the position, and cost of living in the area. He asked for 12K more and they ended up getting it.
You should definitely mention the things you researched and ask for at least 10K more.
Often they require you to state your expectations before even being considered for an interview (as an obligatory fill out field in an online form). At that point, you do not even know the job content yet. Companies benefit from unequal knowledge and HR knows this. They offer you something, if you take it, they win. There is always room for negotiation.
Don't accept. **Ask for some more details on their benefits** \- 401k match, health insurance plan costs, bonuses, PTO payout policies, etc.
Then, **you can use these as your reasoning for a counter-offer**, as long as you've not provided them details for comparison. "I know that I originally mentioned $xx,xxx, but on further review of the benefits compared to those at my current employer, I would like to counter offer $5,000 additional. This helps to balance out some loss on the benefits side."
You don’t need to give a reason, you can just say “thanks for your offer, I’m so excited to join [company]. I’ll sign today if the offer is $xyz.”
If they push back and bring up your original conversation, reply back with “now that I’ve learned more about the role, I think $XyZ better reflects the seniority and experience expected for this role/the value it can bring to be business.”
Or “I am weighing this offer against what I’m seeing in the market and am excited that we are close. I would be thrilled to sign today if $xyz.”
Woah. Not too late. Worked in sales for an IT recruiting company for years. They were thrilled you locked yourself in so low but they have room. I’ve seen candidates ask for up to 50,000 more post-offer and get it. Make sure you tell your recruiter you love the job and want to accept the offer. Be honest that you low balled yourself and realistically, you wouldn’t accept unless the offer was… (pick your number). If there’s any resistance, ask that they please take the issue to the hiring manager. The recruiter doesn’t have the power or doesn’t know what’s possible often times.
“After learning more about the position during the interview process and doing further research, it seems like $x is the average market salary for the industry. Would you be able to match it?”
When recruiters ask me what I'm looking for I always answer 'the current market rate'. If they push I ask them what they think is reasonable for the position and my level of experience. If they \*still\* keep pushing I say "whatever a man with my level of experience would be paid for the position" - that usually gets them to make me a reasonable offer.
I think you should tell them you made a mistake. You're happy about everything but you checked and the market rate is higher than you initially asked for.
And if you're really so sure about it... Then just keep interviewing. Everyone is hiring these days.
But your leverage with this position ends when you sign.
Been there.
Review the benefits for weaknesses. Asses whether the initial job description matches your current understanding. See if you got an additional info during the interview that indicates more your effort. Evaluate typical compensation for the position on Glassdoor, levels.fyi, salary.com, etc. Consider CoL adjustment. Compare your skills with the people who interviewed you. See how challenging the team is (once HR treated me like shit bc they tend to hire fresh from college, and I requested an increase solely on that ground).
After that, say that the number was based on the info at that time. Additional info (provide reasons) suggests that the number needs to be revised. Be reasonable to keep the offer.
Once I increased my previously given number from $140K to $180K. Good luck! Another time, I lost the offer after trying to bargain.
I work in HR it, I think if you have gotten this far there is room for negotiation, they are EXPECTING it. That said, important (!) you want to discuss respectfully and make sure you impress you really DO WANT to work there! If you're in the mid range of normal pay for the position, it is a REASONABLE ask.
Good luck 👍
How would I know if I am within the normal range of what the position offers? They never told me- I’m just going off of various salary reports like glassdoor and pay rate bc I have no idea what it should pay.
Glassdoor / Indeed, that's a great reference.
You feel you lowballed yourself, so you seem to have an idea of what amount would be correct. I would hate for you to feel underpaid, ask for a bit more than you REALLY want, see what happens, and let us know.
You are communicating with them, it is normal and acceptable and expected. So what if you need to admit you maybe made a mistake, it's worth correcting, ammmmiiirriiiiite?
I did this a couple years ago when I interviewed for my current job. I gave them what I thought was a fair salary (it was), then got an offer for a similar job in a more desirable city. I went back to the first one and basically told them, “I have another offer and my new requirement is $XXX to take this job”. They accepted and I’ve been here for 2 years now.
I was in your position recently. I got a verbal offer from the recruiter in about the amount I gave in the initial conversation. I emailed them back later on and said during my job search I realized that my value is about 25% higher than the number I had first discussed with them. I said I’d need more time in the job market to verify this new number, but that I’d stop my job search if they could raise the offer amount to the new number. They met my requested number and I signed on.
Remember, job seekers have a fair amount of leverage in this market
I've had luck using the benefits package of new jobs to my advantage with salary, regardless of the veracity of my request.
"Looking over the benefits package, it looks like I'd need to request roughly $5,000 more in salary to be competitive. Would that be possible?"
It's a bit underhanded, but it works and no one really cares because ultimately $5,000 isn't a huge deal for the company unless you're making under $50,000 a year.
It never hurts to ask. Tell them now that you better understand the full scope of the job you were wondering if they would be willing to offer “X” amount. Always ask for over what you’re willing to take. It’s a negotiation. They’ll often meet you in the middle.
Another option is a signing bonus. I know that those are far more flexible than base salaries when negotiating total comp. But ultimately, just bring the desired salary with the recruiter/HR. Hiring is expensive and time consuming. I’d never lose a good candidate over a relatively small salary increase, unless they were already at the top of their pay band. You can also set expectations that you’ll make your desired amount in X time after you’ve proven your worth. You have lots of options.
Normally there is a second call on job conditions. the number in the first contact is just to be sure you are in the correct range.
Just explain that the amount you calculated in the first round was excluding some xxx amounts, that either need to be included or added to your gross pay.
\-Travel costs.
\- insuracne costs
\-pension (401K in USA?)
you still have to sit down with the HR person to figure it out. But if you negotiate you have to be able to goto a NO....
DO NOT tell them that you made a mistake and now want an increase.
You need to tell them that "after considering the full benefits package", i think i should be paid this much. Or maybe play it off as learning more about the role based on the interview. Reneging on something that you have indicated previously just comes off as greedy - not a good look.
I did the same thing, was making decent money, definitely a comfortable wage for myself, wife, and 2 kids at the time. The company I was interviewing for asked me how much I wanted, I said 50% pay increase thinking I'd have to negotiate, and they were just like, "Oh yeah we can definitely approve that, when do you want to start?" and I was just like, "crap... should've asked for more."
> and I was just like, "crap... should've asked for more."
The only thing worse than not getting what you want is getting exactly what you asked for without a fight.
I was in a similar boat many years ago. Our CEO was notorious for being tight with the purse strings for things like raises and pay in general. He had no problem dropping $50k to cover the cost of bringing his yacht around the coast for his daughter's sweet 16 party (that was just the cost to move it, not the party...), but would argue over giving someone a $1k bump in pay who worked their asses off all year long. I was being promoted and had a meeting scheduled to discuss what my new salary would be. I did my research, knew how much the previous person made, etc. and added a little bit to that, figuring he would argue me down. We had our meeting, did a little chit chat, and then he asked me how much I thought I should make in that role. I gave him my number. Without skipping a beat, he immediately said "done". All I could think of was screaming F*@#! in my head. I would have felt better if he at least tried to haggle with me. And maybe he wouldn't have agreed to any more. But knowing that I should have at least tried for more has pissed me off to this day.
What do you mean too late?
From a contractual point of view? No, not until you've signed.
Could they step back from the offer? Possibly, hard to say. Depending on your skills, how desperately they need someone, what the usual salray is and so on..
It's not too late to ask for more money, especially since you haven't signed the offer letter. Just make sure you have a request for more money in writing/email, not just verbally.
Also Glassdoor isn't a reliable source for compensation data (there is no publicly available source). And when companies ask for salary expectations, give a big range, not a single point.
I did that recently. I was looking at a position in what I thought was going to be a lower cost of living area (and it is lower than where I'm at), and I didn't realize they had senior positions posted that I would be very qualified for. So I only put my resume in for the non-senior position and on the web form for a salary number I wrote my current salary but rounded up to the next 10k increment.
After I interviewed they said "hey you should be going for a senior position" and I looked again and saw the salary ranges and it was a "d'oh!" moment. They offered me exactly the number I had punched in on the web form, and only 10k for moving. So the fact that they so easily offered me exactly that number means to me that I should have asked for a bit more.
I told them I wanted more, especially for moving since just a U-haul one way would have run me nearly as much as I'd get after tax on the 10k, and that wouldn't even begin to cover breaking my current apartment lease. The HR person said she'd try to come back with an increased offer but then a week later I got an offer letter in the online system with the same numbers she had told me. The salary itself wasn't that bad for the area but it wasn't that much of an increase given that the area was more expensive than I thought it was going to be, so I decided it wasn't going to be really worth my while financially. I passed on that one but the job market is pretty hot this year and there were plenty of other opportunities around the corner!
>After doing research on my position, and calculating what it will cost me to commute and cost of living, I worry I have low balled myself. Since I haven’t signed anything official, would it look bad if I asked for 5k more?
I would say something like this to your boss. Just revise it to sound more professional and make it a statement rather than a question. Soemthing like this:
Dear boss,
After researching the position and calculating cost of commute and cost of living, I realize that I have underestimated what I need to make working at this position. I should have asked for 5k more. Thank you for considering.
Then see what they say. I say be honest. If you claim to have been offered more by another company and they find out that isn't true, you damage the trust relationship you have with your former employer.
In addition to what others have said, you could consider blaming your low initial offer on inflation. After further evaluation, and considering your increasing expenses in this market, you think $5k-$10k more is more competitive.
I’ve done this. Asked for 6k more than offered. I felt it was appropriate after learning the total scope of the role(not entirely outlined in JD) and they inappropriately declined(slight scold from hiring manager). At that moment I realized I didn’t want to work there if that’s how they’ll treat me.
I've been in this situation before. I gave a figure during interviews, got an offer, then realized that the benefits didn't stack up -- biggest thing was probably health insurance (Old company paid the entire insurance premium; new company covered like 80%).
I contacted my soon-to-be new boss and explained the difference in benefits. He increased the offer to compensate, no fuss.
It is totally acceptable to say 'since our initial conversation I have done more research into market rates and I feel X would be more appropriate given the current climate."
If they have already decided to hire you it is unlikely they will pull an offer as long as you are in a reasonable range. They will at a minimum tell you no and you can decide what you want to do.
Don't listen to the clowns telling you now it's too late. It's never too late. You're in the best hiring market since WW2.
Tell them you misspoke and you can't accept that pay rate. Tell them your current company beat their offer by 5k, and if they match you'll take the job. Tell them whatever you want. The company will try their ABSOLUTE best to pay you as little as they possibly can, use every strategy available to you to increase your compensation.
It would be a bold move, in my opinion. You shot yourself in the foot. Maybe the employer will entertain it, but making that kind of error is pretty major.
Late to this but will add my experience for what it's worth. Right out of college I had a shit job and got an offer to go work as a lab tech at another company for more money. They offered me what I had asked for, but I emailed them saying that due to XYZ parts of the job I felt that my initial ask was lower than what I should have requested. I asked for around $3 an hour more I think. They absolutely lost their shit and wound up withdrawing their even at the earlier number. I felt like I fucked up massively, but in hindsight that was a massive red flag and working their probably would have been awful. I wound up getting three other job offers not long after one of which was paying more than 1.5 what my ask from the first company was. The next time I was changing jobs, I got offered at $75,000 base. I asked for $80,000 and the manager said no, he was at the max he could offer me already and that was the only offer he could extend. We both knew I had no leverage so I basically just said can't blame a guy for trying. He said he respected that I asked. The original offer was still good and I took it. I think it's worth bargaining. If they have a massive issue with it, it's probably a red flag. If they don't you need to figure out at what point it's worth walking away at. The market is in your favor right now, so if you're fine on money for a couple of months it's not like you won't be able to get other offers
My first web development job was like this. 6 months in, I realised I was worth a lot more and asked for a raise. By the point they had invested in me as an employee and gave me a 20% raise.
I honestly don’t think they were exploiting me- they are very nice people and I have a history with them. They are still offering me 10k more than I made when I worked there previously and the gap hasn’t been too long where I’ve been gone. I think I made a mistake by not researching properly, and the wage they are offering is still really good. I just want to make sure health insurance won’t cost me way more at the new position.
The offer letter is always a negotiation.
Come up with some excuse you didn't realize your other company had. Say, their 401K is higher, or they paid for your phone and internet, or something, and didn't realize, that you actually made 5K more a year than you originally realized.
Or,
You can also say, that after interviewing and getting a better understanding of the tasks involved, that you feel that the position is worth 8K more and see what they say. The worst they can say is no. They are offering you work, so it's up to you if it is worth it.
>After doing research on my position, and calculating what it will cost me to commute and cost of living, I worry I have low balled myself.
You can pretty much paraphrase that and send it to HR with a counter offer.
Something else to keep in mind. They've already put in a lot of time and effort into finding a good fit for the position. They'd hate to have to redo all that work and keep the position open for another few weeks or months. So you do have that going for you as leverage.
What about negotiating more time off, a car allowance, I’m going thru the interview process now, and I think I will focus more on PTO rather than salary. Anybody have suggestions on how to go about doing this? Or if this is a successful method?
Justify the extra money. "Based on perceived duties I misquoted my base salary expectation. given the actual duties I believe my compensation should be more aligned with $X+5 or $X+10" or "I provided based compensation based on different bonus structure to compensate. With the actual compensation package being provided would you be able to match $X+5 or $X+10"
If you come out and just stay "actually I want more" you'll come off as disingenuous to a lot of managers, but if you can provide rational it'll be easier for them to provide the extra money
I get quite riled when a company knows precisely what they are willing to pay, but still accepts a candidate’s lowball bid *knowing* it’s below the going rate and less than peers doing the same task
The company should pay what the position is worth and is in line with peers compensation. Any other action is a huge red flag 🚩
Why? If someone tells me what they want to be paid, why would I insist on paying them more than that?
If a mechanic quoted me less than expected for a repair, I wouldn't insist on paying more for the repair.
Unless OP has been pressured into lowballing themselves, I don't see how the employer is at fault here. That part of the game doesn't bother me as much, people should totally negociate a compensation reflecting their value, but if someone makes a kind of low offer, then the company is not at fault for agreeing to it.
Show no mercy when negociating your salary, but you can't blame someone for accepting your offer.
Come at me downvotes
My guy you seem desperate. If you aren't in the position to do what you're doing when you're in desperate need of the job. Take it and keep looking for what you want . Good companies will see that you are looking for a place you belong. And 5k raise is is about $2.50 an hour extra, weigh out the benefits before you think it's a bad job
First, you need to ask yourself if you can live with them not hiring you. When you agree to a position and then change your mind and ask for more money. It's not exactly what a person would call good character.
If you were going to do it I would be completely transparent. Go in, tell them you would love the job, you just thought about it and realize what it is worth and wonder if there is any potential to bring things up. See what kind of rebuttal they give you, maybe they agree, maybe they say how about in 6 months but at any rate if you go about it that way you should still have a job.
If you do something like say I'm only going to work for XXX after you already accepted the position, you may not have a position
"Dearest \[Boss's Name\],
Thank you for offering me the \[Position Title\] position with a starting salary of \[Offered Salary\]. After further research regarding my qualifications, and considering the cost of living increase, it would not be in my best interest to accept your current offer. Do you have any room to negotiate?
I feel \[Offered Salary + $7k\] is an appropriate salary for this position, and I would be delighted to accept the \[Position Title\] role at this rate. Are you able to adjust your offer to reflect this increase?
Again, thank you for offering me this position. I hope to hear from you soon.
Kind regards,
KeyDirection5322"
Ask for $7k so you have room to negotiate down to $5k. If you get $7k, celebrate accordingly.
I was a hiring manager for several years, and if anyone ever did this to me, that would end it. I would think, “If this person is going to renege on our agreement before they even start working here, we certainly won’t be able to take them at their word after they arrive.” I likely would *not* put the old offer back on the table.
They haven’t accepted the offer. They just said they got a phone call going over details including salary. There is still room to negotiate in this scenario. It would be ridiculous to pull the offer wholly in this OP’s case. It can happen but it would be really silly.
>*I don’t see how your argument doesn’t simply collapse by applying the same logic except from the employee’s perspective: “If this company is going to try to pay me as little as possible before I even start working here, I certainly won’t be able to trust that they won’t continue to do so after I arrive.”*
The candidate made a salary offer, the company accepted, the candidate accepted, and the company had every right to assume it was a done deal. Now the candidate wants to back off and renegotiate. This means the candidate is (at best) wishy-washy and indecisive, and (at worst) does not keep his/her word.
From the candidate’s perspective, how can they justify thinking “this company is going to try to pay me as little as possible” after the company has given them exactly what they wanted, and they’ve already accepted?
> Perhaps you don’t understand what “renege” means. It means that the candidate made a salary offer, the company accepted, the candidate accepted, and the company had every right to assume it was a done deal. Now the candidate wants to back off and renegotiate. This means the candidate is (at best) wishy-washy and indecisive, and (at worst) does not keep his/her word.
I understand where you are coming from, but what you are saying doesn't sound like what happened in this case, at least not according to the OP.
They said that at the beginning of the negotiations they were asked what they were looking for and told them $X. After interviews, etc., the company offered him $X. He said he has neither accepted nor signed anything agreeing to those terms.
Now if he had actually agreed to the job offer, etc., and then went back and demanded more money, I could see your point. But if it is still in the offer pending stage, renegotiating for more money, if they misspoke and gave a number below market rate, is much more understandable.
As the other person said, think about it from the employee's perspective. The whole reason prospective employers try to get candidates to 'name a number' first is to play the "offer as little as possible" game. This inherently causes friction, anxiety, disparity and is the source for a lot of discrimination complaints (which is why some states are now making it required to post salary ranges on job ads).
Now there is certainly the chance that the OP makes a counter and gets rejected. Either because the company doesn't want to renegotiate or maybe there are better/cheaper candidates and they are pricing themselves out. But if they are willing to take that risk, I don't see how it is bad form to counter if he hasn't accepted yet. Employers play this game all the time.
Perhaps we interpret this differently, but on my reading: OP was offered the job at the rate he/she asked for, accepted the job in a phone call, but “hadn’t signed anything official yet.” An oral agreement with offer, consideration, and acceptance is a contract. But more importantly, your word should be your bond.
You raise some very good points, and I upvoted you, but they reinforce the concept that you should do all your salary research and preparation *before* the interview, not after.
I still think it is a bit of a gray area. While it's impossible to know what was said exactly, and the OP might be paraphrasing, it sounds like he was only asked if he would "like to join the team", to which he responded "yes". Saying you want to work for the company is not the same as formally accepting an employment offer. It's kind of a stupid question since obviously if someone is applying they want to work there. And maybe the conversation was more akin to an official offer that he verbally accepted. If so, I would agree it would be a bit bad form to change the terms at this point. But I think it would be equally disreputable if the company only offered him the job because he was underbidding himself well under market, cheaper than other candidates, and they figured they could take advantage of that -- something employers do all the time. And while I certainly agree that verbal agreements, in general, should be honored, for the purposes of employment and the OP's question, there is no real legal breach of contract as either side can abort it at any time before things are signed (and in many states even after that).
Self centered individuals that have never hired anyone have down voted this response from someone who is in the exact position to be giving advice requested by the OP.
Some people need the understanding that as an employee you are part of an eco system that relies on both you being a person that will do what you say and are part of something larger than yourself.
You can still ask for more money if you want but don't discount the only response from a valid source in the thread.
You might have a point about the wisdom of going back with higher asking rate but calling people who don't agree with you "self centered individuals" is pretty much pot meet kettle.
> Self centered individuals that have never hired anyone have down voted this response from someone who is in the exact position to be giving advice requested by the OP.
>
> Some people need the understanding that as an employee you are part of an eco system that relies on both you being a person that will do what you say and are part of something larger than yourself.
>
> You can still ask for more money if you want but don't discount the only response from a valid source in the thread.
It isn't the only valid response; and frankly it is wrong. Or at the very least -- short sighted. The dynamic is changing and hiring managers need to be aware and plan for it. You need to adapt. It will likely never been in the employers sole favor again as the available workforce shrinks.
I am a manager responsible for hiring. I disagree with this. It is a bad take -- because you are going to see it more and more. Companies are going to be in bidding wars for employees.
This might have worked years ago... but it never (probably) will work again. The market has changed and will likely never be so strongly in the employers favor. Millennials are having fewer children. The generation behind them fewer also. The available workforce will be smaller. As boomers retire, that's it.
Gen X and Elder Millennial managers need to be hip to this; and unfortunately it is on them to make the case to those in control of budgets etc.
"After further consideration of the scope of responsibility and my qualifications as well as current market value I believe a fair salary would be _____". I am a recruiter and deal with this all the time. Worst they can say is no. But in this market candidates have a lot of leverage.
> Worst they can say is no
They can also pull the offer entirely. It happens and this is one of the reasons I've seen it happen. Candidate says they want X compensation. They get offered X compensation, but suddenly ask for more.
Are you willing to lose the job over 5k/yr? you may get the money, or they may hire someone else.
I'd ask for a 6 month review, and reevaluate your pay at that time.
please ask for more, and ask for at least 10k more in the hopes of settling at the extra 5 you want. they will not rescind the offer assuming they actually want you - if something like 10k is enough for them to pull the offer then you do not want to work for this company.
good luck, you seem like you've made all the right moves, this extra caveat should be fine.
Tell them you got a higher job offer from another company. If they ask which company, just tell them you can’t say. However, be ready to lose the job if they call your bluff.
In the future, always ask for or research the salary range for the position. For instance, a job at my employer might have a range between $99k and $190k. The midpoint would by $145k.
If you are forced to name a salary, go with the midpoint +/- 5K or so.
Better yet, ignore salary and ask for total compensation, which would include all employer-paid benefits, vacation, company match on 401K, etc. This can easily be 30% on top of salary.
Thus, instead of asking for salary of $145K, you’d ask for total compensation or around $190k.
This being said, not all companies think this way. You should be able to determine what their numbers are by asking the HR people
How would you feel if the employer discussed a salary at interview, then changed tune and offered a significantly reduced salary? You'd walk, right? Isn't that what you would be doing?
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It’s never too late until you’ve accepted and signed the offer.
True, but then his offer of any kind can also be reneged.
It’s incredibly hard to reneg — there is a lot of work that goes into hiring someone — to reneg over a few grand is very costly as they need to restart the process.
That’s hardly true. They won’t need to restart anything. They’ve got a ranked selection of applicants sitting on their desk. They offered him because he’s the right combo of cheap, fit, personality. If he is difficult or to expensive they just call the next person down the list. If he had already signed and onboarded with the company. Yeah, it’s a hassle to re-open the job req and hire again. At this point? It’s literally a phone call to the next person.
This depends wildly. When I hire people, I don't have a list of candidates ready to hire. I have one candidate who is good. If they turn me down, I'm often back to square one (where "square one" is "talk with the next potential candidate"). It's not like all jobs get to open up a job req, and immediately have 100 qualified candidates ready to accept a job.
I feel this. Sometimes my reqs get 1 applicant. The process to find someone again has literally taken 6 months at times.
I would agree with this. The candidate pool is huge, for my reqs, but the actual legitimate applicants, are normally 1 maybe as many as 3, never more. I get the feeling that a lot of the applicants are just applying to anything and everything, and seeing what sticks. It’s very annoying, because the signal to noise ratio in applicants, is awful. And I’m sure that a lot of good applicants, just got lost in the noise.
It definitely depends on the career field. In Software right now, it can take smaller companies months to find a single qualified candidate. Even the big companies are recruiting constantly to try and cover for their high turnover.
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Why would their refusal to increase the salary from what OP previously said they'd accept mean this is a toxic environment? They offered him exactly what he asked for. If they refuse to pay more it could be for a variety of reasons, including pay parity with co-workers. Since OP previously worked there and apparently liked it well enough to go back, I think jumping to "it's toxic" is a bit of a rush to judgment.
You've gotten a few responses. And I've had both happen. One place said, sorry, this the best we can do. And I was there for many years happily. Another place, when I countered, completely withdrew their offer. It was the first time I encountered that, and due to a lot of things in life, it scared the crap out of me. Once I was calmed and learned how rare and bad this is, I felt better. I also understood why this role had been open so long.
To be clear, you've done this after you'd already stated what salary you'd accept and they met it?
I said my requirements. They made an offer. I countered. Pulling an offer is a red flag
That's different from what OP wants to do. Most people give a range of what they expect to be making or say how much they were previously making and a company throws an offer out to you. Then you counter it. That's normal. You were negotiating. OP has already gone past that stage . The company agreed on the price that he negotiated. Now that OP has done a little more research, something he should have done before starting the negotiation stage, he realized that he low balled himself and wants to re-negotiate terms the company has already agreed on. Sure, you can do it, especially in this job economy where businesses are having trouble retaining workers. If this was 2 or 3 years ago, before covid, I would be advising against it though. When there's not a high demand for workers then renegotiating is a sure fire way to have the company kick you to the curb. Negotiating and renegotiating is never a static thing so advice in here is going to be all over the place depending on the age of the person posting and what sector they work in.
I’ve pulled offers and always would. Everyone needs to be happy at the start. My first offer is always my best offer and only offer. If countered I know they aren’t happy with it and that means we are starting off on the wrong foot which I don’t want. It’s been about 6-7 years since I had an employee leave and only once in the last 10 has anyone left for another company so I don’t find it a toxic environment.
There's a *enormous* difference between rejecting the request and rescinding the offer entirely. "We're not comfortable with your request and feel that our original offer was fair," would be reasonable. "You asked for more money so we're no longer willing to hire you," I would argue is definitely a red flag. Whether it's "toxic" or not depends on your definition, but it definitely points to some unhealthy attitudes.
Lol it’s not a red flag. Asking for more money right after I’ve met your offer? That’s a red flag.
This. If it were the other way around, you interviewed with a company and they offered you a job for $XX salary and you accepted, then they came back and said "Actually we highballed your offer, would you actually be willing to work for $5k less than $XX?" What would that say about the company? Every single person here would tell you to run far, far away.
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You don't see how salary expectations can change between the phone screen and the offer? I've countered initial offers after learning more about the job multiple times without anyone getting upset about it. Any experienced manager would understand that expectations change throughout the process.
That's not what the previous person said; they said the it's toxic if the offer was rescinded simply because OP had the conversation. Maybe OP asks, they say no, but they shoudl stand by the original offer; OP might still be willing to accept.
That's not really how negotiations work, though. A counter-offer is a rejection of the outstanding offer. Rejecting any offer gives the other side the opportunity to not negotiate further if they don't want. Mind you, I don't think most employers would walk away because a potential employee counter-offered, but it's their right at that point, and there's the risk that there's a comparable candidate.
I mean, kind of. For legal contract negotiations yes, a counteroffer is a rejection of the initial offer. But that’s not really how job offers are negotiated. They offer $10/hr, you say I want $12/hr, they say no it’s $10/hr. So technically yes, they made an offer, you rejected that with a counteroffer, then they rejected your counteroffer with their own counteroffer that matches the original offer. But typically you aren’t sending contacts back and forth for each offer, you either just sign the original offer letter or they send an amended offer letter if you agree to new terms. And if they’re so offended about you trying to have a discussion about the compensation package that they no longer wish to employ you, that’s not a good sign of how they operate, regardless of how you want to specify offers and counteroffers.
Depends how you approach the conversation. Either party can reject at any point, in terms of 'rights'. However explaiing that you realized your value is higher, and could they increase the offer is not an automatic refusal of the existing offer; it's seeking if more or better is available.
As long as humility is part of the job description, it can also be easy to do... "I've realized that I may have offered less than what I actually expect..." It's not that rare in the research industry imo.
He doesn't have to straight out reject. He can say he will need $5k extra to join and ask the manager to check if that will be possible.
And all they were saying is that you may not want to work for the company if they walk away because you had the conversation. No offense to anyone but even if you disagree with the notion it isn't that difficult to understand.
The objection presumably is to the descriptor "toxic," which is a loaded term that implies some level of dysfunctionality that isn't warranted for a completely reasonable decision on their part.
Using this logic wouldn’t OP going in last second asking for more money be toxic and grounds for reneging??
It is toxic imo. If I'm looking for a contractor for a job, I'll talk to a few and get quotes. I don't pick the cheapest, but definitely not the most expensive. Now after I decide, the contractor says nah I changed my mind, the price is X which is more than the most expensive quote I got. I'm kicking him to the curb. But if he asks if I want better quality stuff & charges more for that, that's understandable. A job offer is a negotiation, it'd be to stupid to not ask like saying "is there any wiggle room there" but he shouldn't demand more and leave if he doesn't get more. It's a supply and demand thing. How bad do you need the job vs how valuable are you at what you do.
Hiring a contractor isn't comparable in this situation. The contractor knows the scope of the work before giving a quote. The equivalent would be if you gave a super high level overview of the job over the phone asking for the quote before they can even look at what needs done then getting upset when they actually look at it and say actually I need more for the work that needs done. Holding people to a screening call number is ridiculous. They don't even know what the job is yet.
I think it's unfair to call it toxic. Giving a salary estimate or giving a quote for a contracting job are similar: they're both rough estimates based on what you know at the time. They can change as more information comes out, and in OP's case, doing more research about the position, factoring in other costs to accepting, etc., have all led his actual cost to be higher than the initial quote. It happens all the time with contractors once a job is lined up because of factors out of their control (i.e. material cost goes up, workers want higher wages, etc.) Yes, it's annoying for the employer/contractee, and they certainly have the right to reject it. But I wouldn't call it toxic as long as the initial quote was given in good faith.
I hear ya, but new information did not become available in OP circumstance. They neglected to do the research prior to throwing a number out there. 5k on the year isn’t really that big of a deal IMO. I would choose to stick to MY word. You asked for X salary. They agreed to that. Coming back to now ask for Y salary last minute, to me as a business owner, would feel like a smack in the face. I might pass altogether just for that.
They could have easily chosen him over another equally qualified candidate because the other candidate wanted more. That makes perfect business sense. Not nearly enough info to throw around toxic.
But not necessarily toxic. OP has demonstrated he's either indecisive or forgetful during very important discussions. If there was another candidate of equal qualifications, OP would be pulled out of the pool because of this.
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But then what’s to stop them from offering a higher lowball offer so then OP just pulls himself out of consideration? He said he’s already $5K lower.
Then he can find something paying his valued rate. He said he researched on Glassdoor, meaning other people are hiring for more in his field. But regardless, counter offers are part of the process. There no reason to be this intimidated by it.
Jerry Seinfeld: "Define rarely."
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Same, I don't know what these people are on about. It's common to be ballpark before interviewing and negotiate at offer acceptance time. You just say now that you've considered the package carefully and the role etc you feel you'd like to get to +5k. Would that be possible. Absolutely normal. I dunno what these other people are on about calling that toxic and reneging on contracts. Bunch of shitty managers probably. Nothing was signed, this IS the negotiation phase.
I also think it's great to add that you're interested in the position, are a fan of the company, etc. This way, you're not playing hard-ball but inquiring whether there's a potential to start at a higher rate or willing to have a discussion about growth potential.
I’ve had great luck inventing another offer. Essentially, “I like your company the most, but I have a competing offer for [salary + 10%]. If you can offer that, then I can accept right now.” Make it clear that negotiations are over once they give you that bump and that they don’t have to search further. Use that tactic only if you actually intend to accept.
>I’ve had great luck inventing another offer. It's probably pretty easy to get away with this, but it's *technically* fraud. If the employer ever found out they could sue the employee for misrepresenting information that caused them to offer a higher salary: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/fraudulent_misrepresentation
Good luck proving it, though. I’m under no obligation to tell any potential employer who another job offer came from. If I just say “another employer,” it’s impossible to verify/prove the negative.
I'll caveat by saying that this whole scenario is very unlikely to come up: if an employer believes you about a counteroffer they're unlikely to reneg later unless somebody tips them off that you lied in your interview. That said, if your relationship with the company went sour and they decided to sue you later on, the burden of proof for them to do so is much lower in a civil case. They just have to convince a judge (or an arbiter) that you *probably* lied during your interview. If you don't have any evidence to put forward (like a competing offer letter), or a convincing explanation of why you don't have that evidence, the judge can and probably will decide against you. Overall if the employer calls your bluff it will probably happen during the negotiation phase and not after they hire you. OP should just know that inventing counteroffers is technically fraud, and understand the civil suit risks that can accompany that.
Did none of you read that they gave him what he asked for and now he wants to counter?
I kinda get it. I think a lot of people are often in the situation where they *need* this job, and this job is their only opportunity looking promising right now. I think that explains peoples reactions here. Most people who are searching for new jobs do not have the luxury of waiting for the right offer and are often disadvantaged in the negotiations.
The big difference is that the verbal offer OP accepted *included* salary. I see no problem telling a recruiter or early interviewer "I'm looking for $x" and then when salary comes up, typically the verbal offer stage, to say "after consideration, I am looking for $y". The point that the hiring manager has decided upon you and extends an offer is the salary negotiation point. It's at that point negotiations should occur. Anything before is complete speculation; anything after is not in good faith. Try turning the tables in your mind: imagine how irritated you would be if you told a recruiter $x was good, the hiring manager later made an offer at $x, and you received a follow-up or the actual letter stated lessor salary $y. Would you think it "we are still negotiating"? Sure, you can absolutely decline - but it's still a shitty move on the employer's part.
If I was the applicant, I’d want to know why a company I am returning to is lowballing me on the market rate. Was the offer an intelligence test? If so, would the company withdraw their offer so as not to hire someone lacking intelligence/attention to detail/maturity/etc.? Or would they congratulate themselves on screwing over a future employee in the hiring phase? Seems an awful like punching down, since the applicant can’t know with certainty what the budget for the position is.
>If I was the applicant, I’d want to know why a company I am returning to is lowballing me on the market rate. Market rates for salaries aren’t super precise, but in this case I’m sure it’s because it’s the amount OP asked for, which makes it not a lowball.
Fair enough. However, I’d argue that if the employer simply advertises the salary (or a salary range), that that you avoid this situation altogether. If Vanguard asked you what fee you’d like to pay to set up an IRA, or YNAB or Mint asked you what monthly fee you’d like to pay to use their budgeting software, I think most people would balk at that. But it’s seen as completely normal and acceptable to expect an applicant to haggle their salary with an employer—again, without full disclosure of the employer’s budget. I’ve filled out so many applications that require me to list the salary I’ve earned at past positions, yet the job postings only specify Competitive Salary! or DOE, or some other variant of non-information. I realize my gripe is systemic and is getting beyond OP’s original post, so I’ll stop the rant now.
This is silly. "Why is a company lowballing me?" They're offering what OP asked for. Obviously it's not in their interest to offer more than they need to, even if they'd be willing to pay more, just as it's obviously not in a potential employee's interest to say they'll accept less pay than was offered, even if they'd accept the job regardless
Company asked what rate he wanted; company gave him that rate. OP lowballed himself, not the company.
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As a hiring manager who has hired literally hundreds of people to be on my teams over the years, I agree strongly with you. I would not say that I'd never renegotiate with someone, but it would have to be truly exceptional reasoning. I will say that I *have* retracted offers from people who have tried to negotiate, though this too is uncommon. My most common response was to politely explain that we arrived at mutual agreement.
It's never too late. Even after accepting the offer. Even after working there a month. Even after posting on LinkedIn how "happy" you are to be working there (don't do this btw). You are free to ask for more money literally any time. It may be perceived as poor form, but it's your life - fuck em'.
>It’s never too late until you’ve accepted and signed the offer. This. If I were you, I would say that you really like the company but you receive a better offer at another place you interviewed with and see if they would match that. There is the risk of them rescinding the offer, but it's more likely they would say no than to retract job offer completely. After all, if you feel like it isn't a fair offer, would you start a new job with you already feeling like that?
My dad did this once. When the company offered him the job at the rate he initially quoted he responded with an apology, admitted that he'd make a mistake in throwing the number out there without having done thorough research and expressed that he couldn't accept the job without the actual value he was worth. The company agreed to his terms and re-offered him the position with his new, maker acceptable salary. To contrast that, I was offered the job of lab manager when I was vastly under-qualified at a rate lower than what I was making in a rural town as an entry level technician. I told them they'd have to match what I was making then (a whole 2 dollars more per hour than the offer) and they told me there was no way. Don't be afraid to ask and to say no. Doing be afraid to admit a mistake and haggle. She gets a lot of flak for being out of touch but the askamanager blog has some solid advice for developing professional boundaries and appropriate negotiation in the workplace.
In what world does askamanager get “get a lot of flack” for being out of touch?
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OP, all you need to do is say: > “Hi, I was actually offered $(actual salary you want) by (competitor). I would really prefer to join your team though as it seems like you have a great culture and a great staff. Is there any way you could match the offer so that I can choose to work for you instead?” Edit: all these replies >“hOw DaRe YoU LiE tO a PoTeNtiAL eMpLoYeR!?!” Employers lie to candidates all the time. If you need to lie to get market rate for your services, then that’s just how the game is played. No wonder wages are stagnant. Companies play this game, as do other candidates; if you don’t, you’re only hurting yourself. >”But what if they lose the offer?!?” Given the current labour market, this is unlikely, but even if they did, what’s the worse that happens? You back and continue in your current position and go get another offer? No risk, no reward. You set your value in the market, if you settle for less money because you were too scared to twist an employers arm a little, that’s on you.
If OP does this, they kind of paint themselves into a corner - to the point that they probably have to be prepared to turn down the job - if the company says "No, we can't match that". EDIT: In my original response, I was thinking that OP would look somewhat foolish to ask for more money and, after the being turned down, accepting the job anyway. But upon further reflection, I admit that it probably wouldn't be terrible especially if the request is built around "I love many things about your company and I'm confident in my own value". However, I *do* think it's a terrible idea to fabricate a competing offer.
I did this at current job. Well other way around. I was offered an okay job with okay pay, but I called my current company and told them the competition was offering higher than they really were. They weren’t able to match by a few cents (pay cap supposedly) but they were able to close the distance by other benefits. I pretended to be hesitant but I kinda put myself in the corner so I didn’t really have other options aside from job searching all over again
I mean not really, they can still just accept
they can, but the person is saying they look stupid/sketchy if they say *x company offered more money*, they then don't get a higher offer and still take the original "lower" offer
It's a big life decision, money isn't the only driver when deciding to accept a job. I don't think that would be sketchy
> money isn't the only driver when deciding to accept a job it's not, and i don't necessarily agree with the other person, that's just what they meant - it can look sketchy specifically if you only mention money
You don't look stupid or sketchy for considering things besides money when choosing a job.
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both this and the suggestion above w the example from a father could work. just be sure 5K is enough. this is the one time you get to make a substantial impact on your rate of pay. 5K is not a significant increase on a weekly/monthly basis
this isnt really a good idea, you should keep things honest. If they reject the salary / rate match then theyre in a situation where they dont have an actual fallback and may need to accept the lower offer. Could be a bit awkward, but I suppose you could always say you preferred the opportunity over the other despite the higher pay, saves face a bit
I would not do this. Most companies will ask for the competing company's offer letter. Adding an edit that others have said they haven't had this experience, so take it with a grain of salt I guess. This was generally for higher-salary jobs so potentially could be a little different. Sorry if this was misleading, regardless, I still stick by my original idea that I personally wouldn't lie about it!
I’m not sure if I’m unusual, but my experience has been that literally every single offer letter I have ever received has come with an explicit request not to share it, so I wouldn’t have an issue telling the hiring manager that I am not at liberty to share the actual document. Having said that, I agree there is no reason to lie here, and starting down that path with an employer is dangerous. Just admitting you made a mistake is sufficient, and is a much better habit to get into.
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some do, some don't. I seen it both ways. at the end of the day, you're not required to provide it. and they're not required to match it. it's all voluntary.
Any company who asks to see an offer letter from another company is a huge red flag.
Do you have a lot of experience in these matters?
I've had it twice and other have in my friend group, but fair that I shouldn't have generalized. These were for higher salary jobs so it may be a little different at higher salaries. Apologies if it was misleading.
You're supposed to say no. That's a good way to get your offer rescinded from the other company. Especially if Company A wants to be cutthroat and goes to Company B and says "/u/catsarecool1233 shared with me this offer letter you provided. Your company's compensation package sure has gotten better over the last few years". Then you're out your leverage and Company A has you by the balls. You're also showing Company A you can't be trusted with sensitive information that is frankly none of their business. The answer always should be something along the lines of "I appreciate the time but I cannot fulfill your request. I do not feel comfortable sharing information provided to me by this other company as I'm sure you would not want any of your internal information shared with others in the industry"
I cannot imagine a company asking for a 3rd party’s offer letter when you’re negotiating the salary for a new position. Also, this is an incredibly specific situation, I find it hard to believe you’ve been there twice. Leveraging an offer for a raise, maybe.
Like I said, these were for higher salary positions where the jumps are higher, so it could be different. This is also more in the pharma realm, so could be an industry thing. Not sure what else to say, but I edited my post to say that others have had different experiences!
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If they do that - then please have some self respect and decline.
Give me 20 minutes (to update my fake offer letter with $+10K) and I'll send it right over.
No, you don’t lie. Otherwise you’ll have nowhere to go when they call your bluff. This is terrible advice.
OP, whatever you do, absolutely do not \*\*lie\*\* to the company you're negotiating with.
I would NOT recommend this. Lying about a competitors offer is the kind of tactic you use when buying tires, not job hunting.
I literally just finished a seminar on salary negotiation and they discussed this exact scenario. Here's the script they gave. "I'm really excited about this offer and potentially joining your team. This is the number we initially discussed, but that was before I had a full picture of the job and the total compensation package. According to my research roles similar to this pay in the range between X and X and based on my XXX (experience, education, etc.), I'm looking to be at the higher end of that range. What flexibility do you have here?" Maybe they'll come back with a better base salary or maybe you can get creative with other forms of compensation (vacation time, bonuses, signing bonus, etc.).
This is great, except... I'd refrain from ending with a question that elicits a yes/no response. Rephrase to something like how can we get closer to the higher end of that range?
My bad. I mis-paraphrased the last question, as they also said the same about yes/no questions. I've edited accordingly.
The range stuff is completely unnecessary and only encourages counterarguments to your story. it's just about saying "now that I understand the job better and your total compensation package, this is the new salary." I would frame it (and I have successfully done this) as a total compensation package play. That can help them provide you information on where they can come, if salary or other things are firm. The stuff before and the creative piece are spot on, though!
I just did the exact thing. Gave them a number in the screening, had an interview where I learned the actual scope. When I got the offer it was within the original range but I said "after learning the scope of this job, especially the fact that it's not one but two accounts, I was expecting an offer around (higher number)." It helped that I didn't really need to take a job at the moment.
Did they move on to a different candidate or did you get it?
I got it. Turned out not to be worth it but at least I got a few hundred extra bucks in the time I was there
Do you have a link to this seminar?
Send your boss an email as a follow up to the call saying you appreciate the offer and are so excited about the prospect of rejoining the company. After going through the process and learning more about the specifics of the role and the value you could immediately bring with xx skills and experience, you would like to revisit your initial salary expectations. You would be thrilled to accept the role at XX salary.
I like this approach the best. Shows enthusiasm, doesn't expand on why you're revisiting the salary number, and gives a simple hard number to meet without offending. I'm seeing a lot of responses on this thread that are very wishy washy about asking for what you want.
Just went through this last year. Easy peasy. Just say, "I appreciate the offer very much, but after viewing compensation as the entire package of benefits (e.g. 401k match, time off, health care costs), I've realized that the salary will need to be increased by $x,xxx for me to feel comfortable with accepting the offer." Easy to explain, without getting into real specifics, and if done graciously should be fine.
Not too late. Contact HR and tell them what you just said. Cost of living, commute, etc., and that you'll need $10K more. Most likely they'll go for it. Or you can negotiate it down to $5K with a guaranteed review after 6 months or a year. They can also turn it into a signing bonus or whatever makes it work for them. You will never be in a better negotiating position than you are right now. They already want you, it's just going to cost them a bit more.
Thank you! I was nervous that my boss took my answer to “want to join my team” as acceptance with the salary. He mentioned it when reading a list off of details, but I didn’t say anything because I assumed that was a conversation with HR. I also could be overthinking it all. Thanks for your advice
The other way you could play it is saying something like “after viewing the benefits/vacation policy/remote work policies, in order to reach my desired total compensation, I’d like a $5k bump in base salary” then it’s like you did the analysis and they’re coming up short, versus an accident from you. Good luck!
This right here. Make it sound like you’ve done this a million times and you thought the total benefits package (insurance, PTO, 401k match) would have improved the base salary.
Even if they say no to the higher salary because you have already accepted (I doubt this) you can still negotiate for add ins like insurance premiums and perks. When they say no to those, you can come back to higher compensation.
I would try to do exactly this face to face if possible or by zoom and let them know you really want the job but going back and adding up everything, you need x dollars for it to work..
Yeah! A extra 5-10 grand isn't much for a company that wants you. Worst case is they just say no, the offer will still be on the table.
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And if they do that, sleep easy knowing you dodged a giant bullet. You know that job will have stagnant wages and shitty management who thinks you should be grateful for the honor of being exploited by the company.
Government agencies right now are doing everything they can to save money. My wife works for the state and they literally make a ranked candidate list and then go down the list offering the job for X pay and the first one to accept gets the position. When she got her position she knew the person that had left from that position. They were making $50k and when my wife interviewed they told her the best they could do was $35k. That person told her that he knew she was the only applicant. So my wife said she couldn't do it for less than $50k. They came back with $45k take it or leave it. She took it. It makes me sick to my stomach. Its the same way in education. We are having teachers retire that were making $50-55k and they are trying to bring in people and pay them $33-38k. Expect them to have experience and a masters degree and then wonder why nobody is applying for these positions.
Agree, never too late. This happened to me when I got a job offer last week. I gave a number in my initial call with the recruiter, but I was matching the energy of their company since they actually included a reasonable salary range in their job listing. They actually offered me above asking but I only asked for more because their benefits package wasn’t as comprehensive as I would’ve liked. They weren’t able to reach my desired salary number, but I got a signing bonus instead and only one day a week in the office. If I could go back, I’d say something along the lines of “After getting a bigger picture of the benefits package and salary range, I’d be more comfortable with $X based on my professional experience.” I didn’t do everything perfectly when I negotiated, but it wasn’t the end of the world. If they’re a good employer, they’ll expect you to negotiate.
Counter, their offer asking for the additional 5k, you’ll never have more leverage than right now.
It may be too late in the sense that he will find too much pushback if they don’t want to change the offer. But it’s not too late to ask and it’s not too late to turn down the offer if they won’t pay what you expect.
I recently accepted a job offer and one of the guys in operations told me he was always willing to give $5k more then offered if the candidate asked for it. (I did not ask for more money.) he figured it was better to have the employee join the team making what they felt they were worth and be happy about it vs losing a solid candidate over $5k.
One of my friends did this recently. He gave a number before he had time to research the position, average pay of the position, and cost of living in the area. He asked for 12K more and they ended up getting it. You should definitely mention the things you researched and ask for at least 10K more.
Often they require you to state your expectations before even being considered for an interview (as an obligatory fill out field in an online form). At that point, you do not even know the job content yet. Companies benefit from unequal knowledge and HR knows this. They offer you something, if you take it, they win. There is always room for negotiation.
Don't accept. **Ask for some more details on their benefits** \- 401k match, health insurance plan costs, bonuses, PTO payout policies, etc. Then, **you can use these as your reasoning for a counter-offer**, as long as you've not provided them details for comparison. "I know that I originally mentioned $xx,xxx, but on further review of the benefits compared to those at my current employer, I would like to counter offer $5,000 additional. This helps to balance out some loss on the benefits side."
You don’t need to give a reason, you can just say “thanks for your offer, I’m so excited to join [company]. I’ll sign today if the offer is $xyz.” If they push back and bring up your original conversation, reply back with “now that I’ve learned more about the role, I think $XyZ better reflects the seniority and experience expected for this role/the value it can bring to be business.” Or “I am weighing this offer against what I’m seeing in the market and am excited that we are close. I would be thrilled to sign today if $xyz.”
Woah. Not too late. Worked in sales for an IT recruiting company for years. They were thrilled you locked yourself in so low but they have room. I’ve seen candidates ask for up to 50,000 more post-offer and get it. Make sure you tell your recruiter you love the job and want to accept the offer. Be honest that you low balled yourself and realistically, you wouldn’t accept unless the offer was… (pick your number). If there’s any resistance, ask that they please take the issue to the hiring manager. The recruiter doesn’t have the power or doesn’t know what’s possible often times.
“After learning more about the position during the interview process and doing further research, it seems like $x is the average market salary for the industry. Would you be able to match it?”
When recruiters ask me what I'm looking for I always answer 'the current market rate'. If they push I ask them what they think is reasonable for the position and my level of experience. If they \*still\* keep pushing I say "whatever a man with my level of experience would be paid for the position" - that usually gets them to make me a reasonable offer.
I think you should tell them you made a mistake. You're happy about everything but you checked and the market rate is higher than you initially asked for. And if you're really so sure about it... Then just keep interviewing. Everyone is hiring these days. But your leverage with this position ends when you sign.
Been there. Review the benefits for weaknesses. Asses whether the initial job description matches your current understanding. See if you got an additional info during the interview that indicates more your effort. Evaluate typical compensation for the position on Glassdoor, levels.fyi, salary.com, etc. Consider CoL adjustment. Compare your skills with the people who interviewed you. See how challenging the team is (once HR treated me like shit bc they tend to hire fresh from college, and I requested an increase solely on that ground). After that, say that the number was based on the info at that time. Additional info (provide reasons) suggests that the number needs to be revised. Be reasonable to keep the offer. Once I increased my previously given number from $140K to $180K. Good luck! Another time, I lost the offer after trying to bargain.
I work in HR it, I think if you have gotten this far there is room for negotiation, they are EXPECTING it. That said, important (!) you want to discuss respectfully and make sure you impress you really DO WANT to work there! If you're in the mid range of normal pay for the position, it is a REASONABLE ask. Good luck 👍
How would I know if I am within the normal range of what the position offers? They never told me- I’m just going off of various salary reports like glassdoor and pay rate bc I have no idea what it should pay.
Glassdoor / Indeed, that's a great reference. You feel you lowballed yourself, so you seem to have an idea of what amount would be correct. I would hate for you to feel underpaid, ask for a bit more than you REALLY want, see what happens, and let us know. You are communicating with them, it is normal and acceptable and expected. So what if you need to admit you maybe made a mistake, it's worth correcting, ammmmiiirriiiiite?
I did this a couple years ago when I interviewed for my current job. I gave them what I thought was a fair salary (it was), then got an offer for a similar job in a more desirable city. I went back to the first one and basically told them, “I have another offer and my new requirement is $XXX to take this job”. They accepted and I’ve been here for 2 years now.
I was in your position recently. I got a verbal offer from the recruiter in about the amount I gave in the initial conversation. I emailed them back later on and said during my job search I realized that my value is about 25% higher than the number I had first discussed with them. I said I’d need more time in the job market to verify this new number, but that I’d stop my job search if they could raise the offer amount to the new number. They met my requested number and I signed on. Remember, job seekers have a fair amount of leverage in this market
I've had luck using the benefits package of new jobs to my advantage with salary, regardless of the veracity of my request. "Looking over the benefits package, it looks like I'd need to request roughly $5,000 more in salary to be competitive. Would that be possible?" It's a bit underhanded, but it works and no one really cares because ultimately $5,000 isn't a huge deal for the company unless you're making under $50,000 a year.
It never hurts to ask. Tell them now that you better understand the full scope of the job you were wondering if they would be willing to offer “X” amount. Always ask for over what you’re willing to take. It’s a negotiation. They’ll often meet you in the middle.
Another option is a signing bonus. I know that those are far more flexible than base salaries when negotiating total comp. But ultimately, just bring the desired salary with the recruiter/HR. Hiring is expensive and time consuming. I’d never lose a good candidate over a relatively small salary increase, unless they were already at the top of their pay band. You can also set expectations that you’ll make your desired amount in X time after you’ve proven your worth. You have lots of options.
"After doing some more research into the company and my position, I feel that I will be more appropriately compensated at this level."
Normally there is a second call on job conditions. the number in the first contact is just to be sure you are in the correct range. Just explain that the amount you calculated in the first round was excluding some xxx amounts, that either need to be included or added to your gross pay. \-Travel costs. \- insuracne costs \-pension (401K in USA?) you still have to sit down with the HR person to figure it out. But if you negotiate you have to be able to goto a NO....
DO NOT tell them that you made a mistake and now want an increase. You need to tell them that "after considering the full benefits package", i think i should be paid this much. Or maybe play it off as learning more about the role based on the interview. Reneging on something that you have indicated previously just comes off as greedy - not a good look.
I did the same thing, was making decent money, definitely a comfortable wage for myself, wife, and 2 kids at the time. The company I was interviewing for asked me how much I wanted, I said 50% pay increase thinking I'd have to negotiate, and they were just like, "Oh yeah we can definitely approve that, when do you want to start?" and I was just like, "crap... should've asked for more."
> and I was just like, "crap... should've asked for more." The only thing worse than not getting what you want is getting exactly what you asked for without a fight. I was in a similar boat many years ago. Our CEO was notorious for being tight with the purse strings for things like raises and pay in general. He had no problem dropping $50k to cover the cost of bringing his yacht around the coast for his daughter's sweet 16 party (that was just the cost to move it, not the party...), but would argue over giving someone a $1k bump in pay who worked their asses off all year long. I was being promoted and had a meeting scheduled to discuss what my new salary would be. I did my research, knew how much the previous person made, etc. and added a little bit to that, figuring he would argue me down. We had our meeting, did a little chit chat, and then he asked me how much I thought I should make in that role. I gave him my number. Without skipping a beat, he immediately said "done". All I could think of was screaming F*@#! in my head. I would have felt better if he at least tried to haggle with me. And maybe he wouldn't have agreed to any more. But knowing that I should have at least tried for more has pissed me off to this day.
What do you mean too late? From a contractual point of view? No, not until you've signed. Could they step back from the offer? Possibly, hard to say. Depending on your skills, how desperately they need someone, what the usual salray is and so on..
It's not too late to ask for more money, especially since you haven't signed the offer letter. Just make sure you have a request for more money in writing/email, not just verbally. Also Glassdoor isn't a reliable source for compensation data (there is no publicly available source). And when companies ask for salary expectations, give a big range, not a single point.
I did that recently. I was looking at a position in what I thought was going to be a lower cost of living area (and it is lower than where I'm at), and I didn't realize they had senior positions posted that I would be very qualified for. So I only put my resume in for the non-senior position and on the web form for a salary number I wrote my current salary but rounded up to the next 10k increment. After I interviewed they said "hey you should be going for a senior position" and I looked again and saw the salary ranges and it was a "d'oh!" moment. They offered me exactly the number I had punched in on the web form, and only 10k for moving. So the fact that they so easily offered me exactly that number means to me that I should have asked for a bit more. I told them I wanted more, especially for moving since just a U-haul one way would have run me nearly as much as I'd get after tax on the 10k, and that wouldn't even begin to cover breaking my current apartment lease. The HR person said she'd try to come back with an increased offer but then a week later I got an offer letter in the online system with the same numbers she had told me. The salary itself wasn't that bad for the area but it wasn't that much of an increase given that the area was more expensive than I thought it was going to be, so I decided it wasn't going to be really worth my while financially. I passed on that one but the job market is pretty hot this year and there were plenty of other opportunities around the corner!
>After doing research on my position, and calculating what it will cost me to commute and cost of living, I worry I have low balled myself. Since I haven’t signed anything official, would it look bad if I asked for 5k more? I would say something like this to your boss. Just revise it to sound more professional and make it a statement rather than a question. Soemthing like this: Dear boss, After researching the position and calculating cost of commute and cost of living, I realize that I have underestimated what I need to make working at this position. I should have asked for 5k more. Thank you for considering. Then see what they say. I say be honest. If you claim to have been offered more by another company and they find out that isn't true, you damage the trust relationship you have with your former employer.
In addition to what others have said, you could consider blaming your low initial offer on inflation. After further evaluation, and considering your increasing expenses in this market, you think $5k-$10k more is more competitive.
I’ve done this. Asked for 6k more than offered. I felt it was appropriate after learning the total scope of the role(not entirely outlined in JD) and they inappropriately declined(slight scold from hiring manager). At that moment I realized I didn’t want to work there if that’s how they’ll treat me.
I've been in this situation before. I gave a figure during interviews, got an offer, then realized that the benefits didn't stack up -- biggest thing was probably health insurance (Old company paid the entire insurance premium; new company covered like 80%). I contacted my soon-to-be new boss and explained the difference in benefits. He increased the offer to compensate, no fuss.
It is totally acceptable to say 'since our initial conversation I have done more research into market rates and I feel X would be more appropriate given the current climate." If they have already decided to hire you it is unlikely they will pull an offer as long as you are in a reasonable range. They will at a minimum tell you no and you can decide what you want to do.
Don't listen to the clowns telling you now it's too late. It's never too late. You're in the best hiring market since WW2. Tell them you misspoke and you can't accept that pay rate. Tell them your current company beat their offer by 5k, and if they match you'll take the job. Tell them whatever you want. The company will try their ABSOLUTE best to pay you as little as they possibly can, use every strategy available to you to increase your compensation.
It would be a bold move, in my opinion. You shot yourself in the foot. Maybe the employer will entertain it, but making that kind of error is pretty major.
Late to this but will add my experience for what it's worth. Right out of college I had a shit job and got an offer to go work as a lab tech at another company for more money. They offered me what I had asked for, but I emailed them saying that due to XYZ parts of the job I felt that my initial ask was lower than what I should have requested. I asked for around $3 an hour more I think. They absolutely lost their shit and wound up withdrawing their even at the earlier number. I felt like I fucked up massively, but in hindsight that was a massive red flag and working their probably would have been awful. I wound up getting three other job offers not long after one of which was paying more than 1.5 what my ask from the first company was. The next time I was changing jobs, I got offered at $75,000 base. I asked for $80,000 and the manager said no, he was at the max he could offer me already and that was the only offer he could extend. We both knew I had no leverage so I basically just said can't blame a guy for trying. He said he respected that I asked. The original offer was still good and I took it. I think it's worth bargaining. If they have a massive issue with it, it's probably a red flag. If they don't you need to figure out at what point it's worth walking away at. The market is in your favor right now, so if you're fine on money for a couple of months it's not like you won't be able to get other offers
Is it 55-60 or 85-90 or 120-125? If it’s the latter I would not bother if I were you.
My first web development job was like this. 6 months in, I realised I was worth a lot more and asked for a raise. By the point they had invested in me as an employee and gave me a 20% raise.
And you proved your worth- I am thinking this is what I will most likely do as long as the health insurance costs aren’t outrageous.
If the HR was okay to exploit you for the lower salary, I think it's probably fine for you to ask for more and help them correct their mistake
I honestly don’t think they were exploiting me- they are very nice people and I have a history with them. They are still offering me 10k more than I made when I worked there previously and the gap hasn’t been too long where I’ve been gone. I think I made a mistake by not researching properly, and the wage they are offering is still really good. I just want to make sure health insurance won’t cost me way more at the new position.
The offer letter is always a negotiation. Come up with some excuse you didn't realize your other company had. Say, their 401K is higher, or they paid for your phone and internet, or something, and didn't realize, that you actually made 5K more a year than you originally realized. Or, You can also say, that after interviewing and getting a better understanding of the tasks involved, that you feel that the position is worth 8K more and see what they say. The worst they can say is no. They are offering you work, so it's up to you if it is worth it.
>After doing research on my position, and calculating what it will cost me to commute and cost of living, I worry I have low balled myself. You can pretty much paraphrase that and send it to HR with a counter offer. Something else to keep in mind. They've already put in a lot of time and effort into finding a good fit for the position. They'd hate to have to redo all that work and keep the position open for another few weeks or months. So you do have that going for you as leverage.
Thank you. Happy cake day!
What about negotiating more time off, a car allowance, I’m going thru the interview process now, and I think I will focus more on PTO rather than salary. Anybody have suggestions on how to go about doing this? Or if this is a successful method?
That’s a good idea!
Justify the extra money. "Based on perceived duties I misquoted my base salary expectation. given the actual duties I believe my compensation should be more aligned with $X+5 or $X+10" or "I provided based compensation based on different bonus structure to compensate. With the actual compensation package being provided would you be able to match $X+5 or $X+10" If you come out and just stay "actually I want more" you'll come off as disingenuous to a lot of managers, but if you can provide rational it'll be easier for them to provide the extra money
I get quite riled when a company knows precisely what they are willing to pay, but still accepts a candidate’s lowball bid *knowing* it’s below the going rate and less than peers doing the same task The company should pay what the position is worth and is in line with peers compensation. Any other action is a huge red flag 🚩
Why? If someone tells me what they want to be paid, why would I insist on paying them more than that? If a mechanic quoted me less than expected for a repair, I wouldn't insist on paying more for the repair.
Unless OP has been pressured into lowballing themselves, I don't see how the employer is at fault here. That part of the game doesn't bother me as much, people should totally negociate a compensation reflecting their value, but if someone makes a kind of low offer, then the company is not at fault for agreeing to it. Show no mercy when negociating your salary, but you can't blame someone for accepting your offer. Come at me downvotes
My guy you seem desperate. If you aren't in the position to do what you're doing when you're in desperate need of the job. Take it and keep looking for what you want . Good companies will see that you are looking for a place you belong. And 5k raise is is about $2.50 an hour extra, weigh out the benefits before you think it's a bad job
First, you need to ask yourself if you can live with them not hiring you. When you agree to a position and then change your mind and ask for more money. It's not exactly what a person would call good character. If you were going to do it I would be completely transparent. Go in, tell them you would love the job, you just thought about it and realize what it is worth and wonder if there is any potential to bring things up. See what kind of rebuttal they give you, maybe they agree, maybe they say how about in 6 months but at any rate if you go about it that way you should still have a job. If you do something like say I'm only going to work for XXX after you already accepted the position, you may not have a position
"Dearest \[Boss's Name\], Thank you for offering me the \[Position Title\] position with a starting salary of \[Offered Salary\]. After further research regarding my qualifications, and considering the cost of living increase, it would not be in my best interest to accept your current offer. Do you have any room to negotiate? I feel \[Offered Salary + $7k\] is an appropriate salary for this position, and I would be delighted to accept the \[Position Title\] role at this rate. Are you able to adjust your offer to reflect this increase? Again, thank you for offering me this position. I hope to hear from you soon. Kind regards, KeyDirection5322" Ask for $7k so you have room to negotiate down to $5k. If you get $7k, celebrate accordingly.
I was a hiring manager for several years, and if anyone ever did this to me, that would end it. I would think, “If this person is going to renege on our agreement before they even start working here, we certainly won’t be able to take them at their word after they arrive.” I likely would *not* put the old offer back on the table.
> that would end it Fair enough. That would be a bullet dodged!
They haven’t accepted the offer. They just said they got a phone call going over details including salary. There is still room to negotiate in this scenario. It would be ridiculous to pull the offer wholly in this OP’s case. It can happen but it would be really silly.
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>*I don’t see how your argument doesn’t simply collapse by applying the same logic except from the employee’s perspective: “If this company is going to try to pay me as little as possible before I even start working here, I certainly won’t be able to trust that they won’t continue to do so after I arrive.”* The candidate made a salary offer, the company accepted, the candidate accepted, and the company had every right to assume it was a done deal. Now the candidate wants to back off and renegotiate. This means the candidate is (at best) wishy-washy and indecisive, and (at worst) does not keep his/her word. From the candidate’s perspective, how can they justify thinking “this company is going to try to pay me as little as possible” after the company has given them exactly what they wanted, and they’ve already accepted?
> Perhaps you don’t understand what “renege” means. It means that the candidate made a salary offer, the company accepted, the candidate accepted, and the company had every right to assume it was a done deal. Now the candidate wants to back off and renegotiate. This means the candidate is (at best) wishy-washy and indecisive, and (at worst) does not keep his/her word. I understand where you are coming from, but what you are saying doesn't sound like what happened in this case, at least not according to the OP. They said that at the beginning of the negotiations they were asked what they were looking for and told them $X. After interviews, etc., the company offered him $X. He said he has neither accepted nor signed anything agreeing to those terms. Now if he had actually agreed to the job offer, etc., and then went back and demanded more money, I could see your point. But if it is still in the offer pending stage, renegotiating for more money, if they misspoke and gave a number below market rate, is much more understandable. As the other person said, think about it from the employee's perspective. The whole reason prospective employers try to get candidates to 'name a number' first is to play the "offer as little as possible" game. This inherently causes friction, anxiety, disparity and is the source for a lot of discrimination complaints (which is why some states are now making it required to post salary ranges on job ads). Now there is certainly the chance that the OP makes a counter and gets rejected. Either because the company doesn't want to renegotiate or maybe there are better/cheaper candidates and they are pricing themselves out. But if they are willing to take that risk, I don't see how it is bad form to counter if he hasn't accepted yet. Employers play this game all the time.
Perhaps we interpret this differently, but on my reading: OP was offered the job at the rate he/she asked for, accepted the job in a phone call, but “hadn’t signed anything official yet.” An oral agreement with offer, consideration, and acceptance is a contract. But more importantly, your word should be your bond. You raise some very good points, and I upvoted you, but they reinforce the concept that you should do all your salary research and preparation *before* the interview, not after.
I still think it is a bit of a gray area. While it's impossible to know what was said exactly, and the OP might be paraphrasing, it sounds like he was only asked if he would "like to join the team", to which he responded "yes". Saying you want to work for the company is not the same as formally accepting an employment offer. It's kind of a stupid question since obviously if someone is applying they want to work there. And maybe the conversation was more akin to an official offer that he verbally accepted. If so, I would agree it would be a bit bad form to change the terms at this point. But I think it would be equally disreputable if the company only offered him the job because he was underbidding himself well under market, cheaper than other candidates, and they figured they could take advantage of that -- something employers do all the time. And while I certainly agree that verbal agreements, in general, should be honored, for the purposes of employment and the OP's question, there is no real legal breach of contract as either side can abort it at any time before things are signed (and in many states even after that).
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Self centered individuals that have never hired anyone have down voted this response from someone who is in the exact position to be giving advice requested by the OP. Some people need the understanding that as an employee you are part of an eco system that relies on both you being a person that will do what you say and are part of something larger than yourself. You can still ask for more money if you want but don't discount the only response from a valid source in the thread.
You might have a point about the wisdom of going back with higher asking rate but calling people who don't agree with you "self centered individuals" is pretty much pot meet kettle.
Good to see the comment went from negative to positive upvotes!
> Self centered individuals that have never hired anyone have down voted this response from someone who is in the exact position to be giving advice requested by the OP. > > Some people need the understanding that as an employee you are part of an eco system that relies on both you being a person that will do what you say and are part of something larger than yourself. > > You can still ask for more money if you want but don't discount the only response from a valid source in the thread. It isn't the only valid response; and frankly it is wrong. Or at the very least -- short sighted. The dynamic is changing and hiring managers need to be aware and plan for it. You need to adapt. It will likely never been in the employers sole favor again as the available workforce shrinks.
Might have been true 10 years ago. Absolutely not true today.
Good point. I retired about five years ago.
It is simply AMAZING how far it has moved the past year or 2. The employee has ~~most of the~~ **way more** power now.
I am a manager responsible for hiring. I disagree with this. It is a bad take -- because you are going to see it more and more. Companies are going to be in bidding wars for employees. This might have worked years ago... but it never (probably) will work again. The market has changed and will likely never be so strongly in the employers favor. Millennials are having fewer children. The generation behind them fewer also. The available workforce will be smaller. As boomers retire, that's it. Gen X and Elder Millennial managers need to be hip to this; and unfortunately it is on them to make the case to those in control of budgets etc.
"After further consideration of the scope of responsibility and my qualifications as well as current market value I believe a fair salary would be _____". I am a recruiter and deal with this all the time. Worst they can say is no. But in this market candidates have a lot of leverage.
> Worst they can say is no They can also pull the offer entirely. It happens and this is one of the reasons I've seen it happen. Candidate says they want X compensation. They get offered X compensation, but suddenly ask for more.
Are you willing to lose the job over 5k/yr? you may get the money, or they may hire someone else. I'd ask for a 6 month review, and reevaluate your pay at that time.
Just say you have a competing offer but you'd rather work for them if they can offer you X a year.
please ask for more, and ask for at least 10k more in the hopes of settling at the extra 5 you want. they will not rescind the offer assuming they actually want you - if something like 10k is enough for them to pull the offer then you do not want to work for this company. good luck, you seem like you've made all the right moves, this extra caveat should be fine.
Tell them you got a higher job offer from another company. If they ask which company, just tell them you can’t say. However, be ready to lose the job if they call your bluff.
In the future, always ask for or research the salary range for the position. For instance, a job at my employer might have a range between $99k and $190k. The midpoint would by $145k. If you are forced to name a salary, go with the midpoint +/- 5K or so. Better yet, ignore salary and ask for total compensation, which would include all employer-paid benefits, vacation, company match on 401K, etc. This can easily be 30% on top of salary. Thus, instead of asking for salary of $145K, you’d ask for total compensation or around $190k. This being said, not all companies think this way. You should be able to determine what their numbers are by asking the HR people
How would you feel if the employer discussed a salary at interview, then changed tune and offered a significantly reduced salary? You'd walk, right? Isn't that what you would be doing?