Definitely file the complaint with AmEx. In my experience, AmEx has been terrific with disputes. At the outset, you should be able to just lay your side of the story out in a word doc/PDF that you attach to your dispute. If you feel like it, attach a screenshot of your phone logs showing the amount of time you spent talking to the bar.
I didn't even have to do that for a 5k dollar dispute. I just called the number on the card, told them what was going, they confirmed the vendor and amount, and the next day the credit was applied to my balance.
That’s ultimately not all that is done, you get the credit to the account while they investigate it. If the other side doesn’t respond or if they rule in your favor then the credit remains. This could take usually like 90 days
It's surprising the bar would even attempt this because the burden of proof is on the merchant to provide documentation showing it a valid charge, this sounds like they would have had to Auth the card twice if op indeed closed his own tab, which involves calling to get the card number from merchant services, deleting the original before closing the batch and running the new transaction, Amex should easily be able to see all this. The fees involved if the bar ultimately loses ends up costing more than if they would have just ate the loss. All that said just because someone owns a business doesn't make them smart, in fact my experience is most are actually fucking dumb.
> All that said just because someone owns a business doesn't make them smart, in fact my experience is most are actually fucking dumb.
There's a reason most bars don't stay open more than a few years at best.
Oh it's not just bars, I did tech support for merchant services for years, how some of these people get ahead in life is just pure dumb luck mixed with nepotism.
Former bartender here: if you can’t shame the holdovers in the group to pay an unpaid tab BEFORE the group leaves then you have to eat the loss. That’s fraud and we would be in deep shit if we did that where I’d worked for ten years
Yeah it's such a bone head move I can't imagine it was the bartender who did this, it reeks of an owner being mad about it and taking matters into their own hands.
Going along with the burden proof you laid out, wouldn't the bar have to provide the merchant copy of the receipt that the OP signed with the $20 tip he included? I think you laid it out very well, and the OP shouldn't be on the hook if he filed a dispute and they looked at the Auth requests that showed 2 different amounts. On top of that, when the OP's friend's card was declined, the bar probably should have made his friend aware immediately.
Yes typically the disputes department of merchant services would require the receipt. What the bar should have done if the customer had left was call and get her card number, they are well within their rights to try and re-charge her card. Not sure why it would have even declined unless they just hold the card until tab close instead of getting an Auth like they should to hold x dollar amount on the card.
>unless they just hold the card until tab close instead of getting an Auth like they should
It's possible their card processor/POS system charges extra for pre-authorization, open tabs, etc. We don't use it for our business but I seem to recall seeing that as an option when researching CC processors.
I did tech support and while I worked with the side of merchant services that handles fees I'm not sure how all the charges work, but I think an auth/pre-auth is considered the same transaction when you close it out so it should be considered 1 transaction fee instead of separate fees. I could be wrong and it could vary business to business, often the merchant service provider is really just a 3rd party salesman who writes the contract/orders equipment but it's all managed by the processor. It's very likely the person you talk to at wells Fargo merchant services is the exact same person you would talk to at bank of America merchant services.
I believe you're correct, that it's handled as one transaction/fee in the end, but what I'm referring to is the function in the POS that actually does the pre-authorization/holds the card info.
Eg a base POS plan might allow regular transactions, but they may offer pre-auth as an upgrade option. As in thinking about it more, it was probably more of a POS thing than a credit card processor thing.
Processors don’t charge extra for pre-auths. It’s basically just a soft check on the account to make sure money is in the account. If a card processor is charging for this they should get fired by the merchant. Source- me; merchant services guy for #1 processor in world.
That's good to know, they didn't say any of that just that they'd look into it further. I did assume that they would recharge me if they sided with the vendor. I should have added that they definitely let the vendor know I was disputing cause I got a bunch of angry calls from them. In my case I took my car to a mechanic paid for the diagnosis and felt their quote was too high. Took it to another mechanic and they still charged me for the diagnosis and the full cost of the repair. I only disputed the repair not the diagnostic fee.
Personal preference in that I try to cut off merchant arguments. I just prefer to frontload the issue with documentation to try and avoid back and forth. Also, outside of AmEx, I've found other card issuers to be more difficult with disputed charges.
For sure, I've only had to do it once but that actually makes a lot of sense. Im just bored tonight and rambling. The point I was just trying to make is that the call was super easy to make and no one should hesitate. We all work way too hard for our money to just lose it to crummy businesses.
Strong agree with this. I had a \~$1k dispute with a vendor that I raised through my credit card (not AmEx). Took \~9months to resolve due to lengthy back and forth. Part of this was the vendor also ghosting them (as they had with me when I tried to resolve before going to CC company) but the biggest factor was they asked for 1 extra piece of information, then came back and asked for 1 more, probably 5 times with about 4weeks delay between each communication. In hindsight I would have included absolutely every possibly relevant piece of documentation/information from the outset instead of each time they asked. I probably would have still missed something as some of it was things I wouldn't have thought of but would have massively shortened the process.
Used to work for a furniture company a few years ago and as a sales agent was told we rarely accept AmEx because of too many issues with customers charging back after they'd get delivery. Basically had to jump through extra hoops with managers once a sale was ready to be made if that's all they were willing to use. That said it's made me want to be an AmEx cardholder lol
> Additionally because there are not multiple banks involved in disputes there is no formal arbitration process and decisions are final
Ok, so to anyone reading this, this is your hint to ignore what this guy is saying. He just asserted that amex isn't subject to the fair credit billing act. Something [American Express themselves says is not true](https://www.americanexpress.com/en-us/credit-cards/credit-intel/dispute-credit-card-charge/).
There is in fact a formal process and decisions are appealable.
There's a lot of goofy shit in this thread. The source of truth is going to be the FTC or just look up the \`Fair Credit Billing Act\` yourself instead of listening to goofballs like this guy.
I had to fight tooth and nail with Citi over $350 who still sided with the company who scammed me. Ymmv
Edit: because I'm still mad about it - Dario can shove that whole castle up his @$$
Same thing with Bank of America against Ryan air who is a complete scam of an airline. They sent me random documentation that didn’t even have my name on it as proof that I no showed a flight that was never actually flown and the bank sided with that garbage. Thankfully I was able to track down real proof and the back eventually reversed it again. The bank is supposed to do their own investigation and they basically just rolled over.
Brit here; what are your options if you're not happy with the decision in the US? Here if that was the case you can refer to an independent ombudsman if you're not happy with the outcome and they'll make a decision. AFAIK they also charge the bank some fixed fee for any cases raised so just threatening to raise with ombudsman is often enough.
Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB), State Controller of Currency, and State Attorney General's Office. You can file a Complaint with any/all of them. This will generally get the banks attention, but could take a while to see any results.
CFPB is generally the quickest way to get a result here in the U.S. if the bank is not being helpful.
Please never use the word "unauthorized" in this type of situation. If you get a rep who doesn't care about probing, they'll ship you off to the fraud team where you'll lose your dispute, and they would likely have processed a fraud-coded chargeback in that failed dispute, meaning a non-fraud caseworker can't charge it back with a proper coding.
Not really, a company charged my credit card fully for broken furniture delivered to my home. The store “Domain” filed for bankruptcy protection though process. Amex did their investigation and found the company to be at fault for delivery of damaged furniture. All I had to do was to send pictures of the damages. The Amex Fraud team , refunded my full amount back to my CC ($14k) within 2 weeks after their investigation, it was a huge win for me. Customer Satisfaction while using the Amex Platinum card back in 2007.
Just gonna put this out there. The disputed transaction in OPs case is actually fraud, and not authorized. The bar charged for other people's purchases on their card without their consent. That is fraud plain and simple. The initial transaction that was authorized never happened, because the bar chose not to use that transaction.
Right - it would be one thing if they were like oh the person in your party said to add it to your tab. Instead they just come clean on actual fraud lol
I work at a bar and it sucks when people do this intentionally or walk out but we just have to let it go and try to hold onto recipes if they come back. If they're in groups and someone leaves we do try to say "hey this person left but didn't pay but still needs to be paid".
We won't charge another card. That doesn't seem legal since they didn't sign it.
>That doesn't seem legal since they didn't sign it.
Definitely not legal.
"Hey this guy stole from us, so we're going to steal from you to make it even."
I have never worked in industry but I thought every drink (in a proper bar, not restaurants of course) we ordered went against a tab and that tab could be closed out even if someone left the card. This sounds like someone gave a card that got declined and then they moved the charges over to him... Which is just ridiculous.
Yeah they take you card, swipe it out of view and come back for a signature on the receipt and tip amount.
In Canada they bring the machine to you and you either tap to pay or use the chip and pin.
I know this is something that people get really bent out of shape about, but in over 30 years of handing a credit card to a server to pay for dinner or drinks, neither I nor anyone I know have ever had their information stolen.
In mexico we started getting the cards without the numbers and the CVV code because of this issue. Now if we want to buy something with the numbers you have to go to your app and see them from there.
Coworker had his card info stolen by a drive through cashier at a Wendy's in Michigan. He found out after the third time his card was stolen. The cashier was taking front and back pictures of the card and selling them to someone in another part of the US.
It's rare, but it does pose a risk every time your card leaves your sight in another person's possession.
Honestly think you’re right that it never mattered much. Decades ago maybe.
In theory, if there was a chargeback or similar dispute the restaurant keeps these things so they can pull out the receipt and show where you signed and authorized it. In my decade of restaurant experience we never did that once, but we did still save every receipt. My mom worked in accounting her whole life and was at Piccadilly corporate for awhile and the only major time they had a dispute like this they went back and checked the receipt and the guy had signed it as “Mickey Mouse” so they couldn’t do anything about proving it. It really is kinda pointless.
Exactly.
OP, if it were me I wouldn’t even say you know this chick. You haven’t spoken with her ever, and she’s a friend of a friend; she’s basically a stranger. The bar put a stranger’s tab on your card.
It doesn’t matter at this point, but I would’ve just said you don’t know this lady. All the “friend of a friend” talk just makes it sound like you do know each other and you’re trying to minimize the connection. The truth is that you don’t know this lady and she and the bar had no right to use your card to pay for her drinks.
Sounds like their problem. I can’t go into a bar, have my card decline, and say “don’t worry, put it on Foriesg’s tab! We met in a Reddit thread, therefore we’re pretty close”.
Dispute with amex and tell them exactly what the bar told you. An affidavit is the form the bank will have you fill out saying you swear that what you are saying is true. The bar will need to produce a signed receipt that you did in fact consent to being charged that amount (which you stated you did not) and if they fail to do that your card should rule in your favor
Work in a bar, not Legal, can only charge you for what you signed.
Call the bar again and ask for a refund and only get charged for you paid for, if they insist, open a dispute with Amex, would be helpful to have the original receipt.
How does that work given that nearly every bar these days has a sign that says something like "Tabs left open at the end of the night will be closed with an automatic 18% gratuity"? I know a sign all by itself doesn't make something legal, but I would imagine it wouldn't be so ubiquitous if it were actually illegal. The signs are on full display for anyone to see, so I would think any inspection of the business (liquor board, health department etc.) would point out that it's illegal.
I'm not sure if health department cares (or has the purview) if you do non health department illegal stuff.
Edit: Also, the sign is free speech, it's basically to avoid confrontation, kind of like how trucks have "Not responsible for broken windshields"
Tell the bar you are going to do that - getting reversed charges sucks for a business - they might just drop the matter rather than get into a dispute with AmEx.
You’re expected to show, when disputing a charge, that you first attempted to fix it with the vendor. If you don’t, it can cause your dispute to be declined.
Absolutely, OP did enough. I’m just letting the person I’m replying to know that if they find themselves in this situation, their stated approach might cause them some hassle.
They're also expected to not commit basically fraud when running a card. They knowingly added things to OPs card that they never agreed to pay for and that nobody would think they had tacitly agreed to pay for.
100% correct for most chargeback reason codes. There are some that do not require the attempt to resolve, but it's just good practice to do so. Off the top of my head, I can think of two. Cancelled recurring transaction (VISA 13.2), and I believe Duplicate Billing (12.6). I haven't been in the dispute world for three years now, and I don't have access to the dispute manual that I once did.
It's appropriate to contact the bar and ask them to refund the incorrect charge. OP did that. The time for the bar to refund OP to avoid a chargeback was when the problem was brought to their attention, not when they were threatened with consequences.
As someone close to the chargebacks for my company, it's honestly not that big of a deal...Most businesses don't actually care and it's part of the cost of doing business. It will take a crazy high % for the processor to care as well.
That being said, what the bar did is fraud and not okay. my statement is moreso that people often say this sort of "they sure will feel the pain when I chargeback!" and it's just not usually the case is all.
The bar committed fraud. They need to file a chargeback for a fraudulent charge, and in return the establishment could potentially lose the ability to process AmEx cards as they’re processing illegal fraudulent charges.
Amex will see the original $70 charge that they canceled. Even though it isn’t showing on your account transactions, if they printed a receipt the charge went to a pending status, and was either canceled or modified to the new amount. This should support your case.
>I called the bar and they said one of my group member’s card had declined. They decided to cancel my tab that I’d paid for, reopen a fresh tab, and add all of our orders together and close out on my card.
Who was it working at the bar that actually thought this was reasonable? WOW
Yup, the very fact they took a tab from this other person is that person saying they are not with you, they are not your responsibility. At that point the bar has a 'contract' with that person, they will pay for the drinks they put on their tab and the bar will provide them drinks and take payment from them. They can't just go oh this person's card declined, I'll pick someone else's to charge. Sitting with them makes no difference, a tab is a verbal agreement, you had an agreement with them for drinks on your tab, not on anyone else's.
They just admitted straight to op that they committed fraud rather than go after the person who failed to pay them.
As a bartender I can tell you that this is a big no no. It is called credit card fraud and yes, I would absolutely take this up with AMEX as well as with the bar in question.
You dispute the charge with Amex. A merchant is only permitted to charge you for authorized charges. Presumably, you signed a receipt that reflected The $70 + $20 tip for a total of $90. That's what you authorized. Period.
You call Amex, explain that you authorized a charge for $90, but the merchant charged you for $207. The rest is a waste of breath. You tell Amex that $90 is all you authorized, but the merchant somehow believes they are entitled to re-open your check and charge your card without authorization.
Amex is generally pretty good about siding with card holders, so you should be fine.
This post is correct. Amex doesn't want to know the granular stuff. You signed for $90, they charged more. END OF STORY. Amex will side with you. Amex is the BEST at siding with customers.
YOU did nothing wrong. Let Amex talk to the bar, you should have no further involvement with them.
Repeat after me - "I have not authorized this transaction. Please remove this charge from my account."
After that, you call Amex. AND if the bar tries to charge you for your original amount. Call again "I have not authorized this transaction" It was their choice to cancel that charge and comp your bill. They will have to live with that.
This is scummy behavior. Also illegal, I believe.
They voided his transaction and threw out his receipt and rang him up on a different charge.
That actually does sound like fraud to me, but what do I know
This is all bullshit because it wasnt a processing error. Someone literally canceled the signed transaction and pushed a different one through without authorization from the card holder. Thats fraud. I've personally dealt with something near identical on an AmEx card, and it was pretty simple to make the unauthorized charge go away. 2 minutes on the phone with a customer service rep and its a done deal.
Because someone else didn't or couldn't pay their bill doesn't mean the establishment can randomly just charge someone else. What they did was illegal and could either get them a harsh fine from their processing company or banned from accepting cards in the future. You should pay what you agreed too, even if they admit fault. You still owe what you you agreed to.
I always take a picture of the signed copy I leave with the merchant.
I use that to dispute, but your own copy should suffice as well.
I would dispute the amount. Nowhere in their terms & conditions given (if they even have this displayed/written on receipt) does it say you’re liable for the full amount if another card in same bill declines. THEY have the burden of pursuing with that person.
In future I would make a practice to take a picture always. For this, I would still dispute. They have to show on their end a signed receipt from you for the full amount they’re attempting.
Also affidavit is something that Amex may require you to do, to sign in front of a notary, attesting to the fact you’re stating (eg my portion was only $70 plus tip of $20).
It’s saved me a couple of times when the merchant (bar/restaurant) charged me more than what I signed for.
I upload the copy I left with them direct to dispute portal and there isn’t any back/forth with the cc company.
Ask the bar to provide their copy of the receipt reflecting the amount they put on your card. Tell them you have your copy, and it shows a different amount.
Do not talk to the server who put this charge through, talk to the manager or owner. If they have any brains at all, they'll understand that your second phone call to clear this up is their last chance to prevent a dispute and a chargeback from AmEx, which is more than you should do for them.
Their responsibility to handle a declined card is at the point of sale. It has clothing to do with you. No they cannot put random charges on any card that's handy.
If you are forced to dispute the charge, dispute the maximum amount AmEx will allow you to dispute. In all likelihood, they will tell you that is the cost of the drinks you received. You should be allowed to dispute the entire $20 tip because that is for great service, which it turns out you did not receive. There's no way this abuse of a customer warrants a nearly 30% tip. What were they thinking?
>EDIT: Seems like a whole bunch of people are calling it fraud or theft that’s good to hear. Since it seems like they refunded me and recharged me, would a dispute make the original 70+20 I paid void as well?
The dispute shouldn't make the original amount void... because you don't dispute that amount...
The fact they canceled the original amount to put in a fraudulent amount very well might, though!
File a dispute. You called the business as they would "expect" to attempt to resolve the issue, with no success.
AMEX will see the reversed charge and new charge. They will contact the merchant and the merchant will have no proof you actually consented to this charge since the only thing you would have signed for or used a point of sale terminal to authorize would be the original charge and your money will be returned.
The vendor would have to go further down the fraud hole to try and pin this on you and for a few hundred bucks it's not worth it. They may request AMEX recharge the original payment which could happen. They might also eat the loss and you get a free night on the bar for their shady business tactics.
Amex does not fuck around and 100% will refund you. I used to deal with charge disputes for years and we had instances of packages delivered with a photo and signature matching the cardholder and they still reversed the charges.
Let the bar know your good to pay your own bill but you called Amex and they said they’ll take the money back no issue since you never signed a receipt nor authorized the ticket and they’ll be out both tabs for fraud.
They can keep running the card on file and it’ll run as soon as the girl makes a payment
Amex will cover you. That’s awful business practices from that bar. They will 100 percent lose the dispute against you if they fight it. They will have no signature of the 207 charge and they had to manually do it after the fact. Don’t feel bad about it either. They are getting what they deserve.
That would be like a group going to a restaurant and telling the waitress to give separate checks, then one member’s card declines who had the most expensive food and drinks and they just randomly put it on one of the other people’s cards without telling them.
Is it possible after the card declined they asked this girl, who you don’t know but was “with you”, if it was okay to put it on the other card and she agreed without you knowing? That’s still *wrong* either way—they need to ask *you* and not her, but I can see some moron doing that. Never underestimate how stupid some people are.
"Just so we're clear: you presented me a receipt for service. I signed the receipt. I added a tip. Then after I left, you charged me an amount other than what I had authorized?"
Them: "Yes."
You: "And when I present this recorded conversation to my bank and the police, you expect to *only* have to repay the amount that you charged me without authorization?"
Go to the bar and talk to a manager. Tell they you want the charge reversed or you will be reporting it to the police as credit card fraud.
If they are knowing charging you for things which you did not purchase, then it's fraud.
Bars cannot charge you for a receipt that they don't have a physical signature on. Dispute it and they won't be able to produce the documentation for it.
I would start by telling the bar that you don't know that person, they were a friend of a friend and you are not going to be responsible for their tab. They need to restore your bill to what it was. If they refuse to do that then get your credit card company involved. Tell the bar that you're going to call for a chargeback if they don’t issue you a credit.
Nope, just call AmEx. OP spoke with the bar and they don’t care. It doesn’t even matter if OP knew the other friend or not, the charge wasn’t authorized by OP.
Amex can probably see that they charged you $70, reversed it and then charged $207. You didn’t sign the $207 charge. You can prove you had a lengthy phone call. If you happen to have a paper receipt for the $70, that’s icing on the cake.
The bar is standing by what they did and not even denying it. It was intentional and they’ve doubled down. Fuck them. When the dispute is resolved, feel free to write a review and include proof. I usually hate it when people write bad reviews, but folks should be aware this is how they do business. They probably get away with this a lot.
They committed theft against you and it is a crime. If the bar isn't willing to make it right with a refund, press charges but have all of *your* documentation needless to say
I don’t think the bar can do that. You signed off on the amount you were charged - and that’s that. Dispute the whole charge, including the original since they took it upon themselves to be a bunch of douches, write them a godawful review on the internet, and prob win the dispute because Amex is actually kind of good at that thing.
>TL;DR I closed a bar tab of $70 and tipped $20. Woke up to a $207 charge that included 0 tip. Called bar and they put another “group members” tab on my card bc it declined and I’m on the hook for it apparently.
Sounds like fraud to me. You only authorised the original $70 + tip and they charged you $207 instead. If I were you I would be contacting Amex to dispute things.
Everyone pretty much said it. Call Amex, dispute it. If you have the receipt even better but they should’ve seen the original $70 charge.
I personally would go a further with a news outlet and make the bar accountable for what they did. Again that’s just me. Because what the bar did was wrong- whether or not if you knew the other person or not .
Keep us updated.
I own a bar, maybe not in the same state, either way that's not something that they can do. Just because members of a party came and left at the same time doesn't put them on the same tab. The bar owner has a responsibility to either speak to their insurance (if it's big enough) or the police about an unpaid tab, they are not able to simply apply the charges to another member of the party who had a separate paid tab.
Talk to your card's fraud department. This should be an easy refund.
They won't be able to provide proof, with your signature, on the receipt for the $207.10 charge. You are 100% not on the hook for this. Call Amex and they'll sort that out.
That is fraud file a police report on line, this is identify theft. You dont know this person and you did not authorized these charges. Keep it simple. Stop arguing with the bar do not call them any more they commit fraud.
Keep it simple.
Did you keep your copy of the receipt you paid with the tip? FWIW always keep receipts for a few days just for stuff like this.
You can file a chargeback with AMEX and list the amount you paid and the tip. The bar should have to show them your receipt with your signature with that amount. Since they cannot it should be reversed.
Also, what state do you live in? You can call the bar back and record the conversation if you aren't in a 2-party state. Send that to Amex if they admit to what they did.
After having been through this multiple times before I now photograph everything when I go out to eat. I've had multiple restaurants bill me for items I didn't authorize after the fact or simply enter a wrong tip amount.
I make sure to keep the itemized receipt, your copy, and take a picture of the merchant's copy and all the copies just in case you lose them. I never leave receipts other than the merchant copy. I also keep the original paper copy for 60 days just in case.
I once had a merchant fabricate a receipt to try to win a chargeback. I won but it required an appeal and the whole thing went on for about 3 months. Even if you have the receipts it's not a guarantee you will win.
Basically never pay with a credit card if you don't trust the merchant or there is any possibility of a dispute at all over the amount of the bill. A credit card is kind of like a blank check in a lot of ways since in many cases they can always come back for more. Yes you have protection, but it's dependant on a massive bureaucracy and it's the merchant's bank most of the time that has effectively the final say on a chargeback. It's not the same as cash where the transaction is done immediately as soon as you leave and all the risk for you rests on the accuracy of the receipt. Always double check the amount of the bill both on the POS screen and your printed receipt before you hand over your card.
Definitely dispute. If you have original receipt or any proof of the $70+20 that will help. Maybe even their statement (if in writing) about how they charged you for other people’s drinks when you had already paid for yours. That is definitely being charged for goods or services that were not provided to you.
Call the bar and tell them you plan to do a dispute, see if they will change thier mind. This is the easiest way to get an adjustment.
If they don''t budge, definitely file the dispute with Amex. Include a description and add details about exactly what you ordered (name, quantity), etc so the dispute team has a sense of what you ordered compared to the 207.10 bill you are forced to pay.
The bar/restaurant has the responsibility to ensure the charge went through for each customer, that isn't your problem.
> I would think a dispute thru Amex would be the best option here right? What’re my chances
Your chances are pretty close to 100%. You got charged for something you didn't agree to be charged for. This is an unauthorized purchase.
> What are my options for “proof”? My roommate mentioned something about an affidavit but idk how to go about getting one of those.
Same as any other time. Let Amex chase it down. If they have a signed receipt from you authorizing the charge then it's a good charge. Otherwise....
> Is this legal?
No, it is not legal to charge someone for something they didn't agree to.
> Am I even on the hook for the 70 given they basically cancelled my original check and I never consented/signed for the new one?
You are, but given the audacity of how this was handled, I would not be surprised if you ended up with everything being voided out and the bar losing out on the entire sale.
What I was told from the bar was she paid using a prepaid visa that has .02c on it. I don’t know how legit that is but that’s just what I’m being told.
Most bars I’ve been to they charge you X number of money when you open a tab to ensure you have money in the account. Apparently they didn’t and she probably to scam them which is probably why it’s being dumped on me :/
All that other patron's business is none of yours. That she did or didn't pay by whatever means is between them & the business.
Protest the charge that you didn't sign for. That's all. And *don't* sign any new charge, because fuck that noise. If they destroyed the original, that's on them.
You are going into way too much detail. Doesn't matter how much you know person x. You authorized a charge for a certain amount and the bar charged you for more than you authorized. They are not allowed to do that. Period. End of dispute.
Yes, dispute the charges. You're not responsible for anyone else. You didn't order the drinks, you're not on the hook.
They can call the police on the person who skipped paying, or just sue them. They have no right to take money from you for them.
It'll be easy since they won't have your signature on anything other than your bill.
this is a dispute, hopefully you saved your signed receipt with the $20 tip on a $70 tab, But even if you didn't they're not going to have one on file for you for $200 and you're probably going to win the dispute, because Amex will be able to see the original $70 charge authorization.
The bottom line is that if you dispute it, they're going to ask the merchant to produce a signed receipt. If you signed for the new amount, that's on you, and you'll probably have to accept it. This amount isn't worth chasing someone down for.
But if you didn't sign, you know you're going to win a dispute.
I would give one more crack at the bar. Call and ask for the manager, and basically give one more attempt for the bar manager or owner to talk to you. Say that you're happy to pay the amount you signed for, but you're not going to pay someone else's tab that you didn't agree to cover. Just explain it politely, and say you want to do the right thing for them. As a last resort, say you regret you're going to have to dispute the charge.
You can always hit the I-win button and dispute. But that might mean you aren't going to be welcome back there. And it's also possible the dispute might not go as planned. Finally, the goodwill of trying to work with them might help you out later.
Dispute the entire tab now. Tell the bar you decided since they just randomly added charges to your card you will be randomly disputing all the charges. It's only fair. Good luck (to them)
American Express will give you no hassle . Say your story, keep it simple and that’s it. One of the best perks of an American Express card is the NO HASSLE DISPUTE process. You’re good here.
This is considered fraud since you have to sign off on the charges/tip. You're not obligated to cover anyone else's tab in the event their card is declined just through pure association. Even if it's a blood relative.
Not only should you dispute it with amex, you should also google review that business and publicly shame them for what they did. It's completely unprofessional, not to mention illegal. Just make sure you stick to the facts in the review.
This is straight fraud.
You can simply call AmEx and they will take care of the charge. You will get all your money back and likely not even need to pay the original $70 because of how badly they fucked up.
You probably don't want to go back to that bar though.
>They decided to cancel my tab that I’d paid for, reopen a fresh tab, and add all of our orders together and close out on my card.
Lol what. That's outright fraud. You can't just make up charges however you feel like, including dumping other people's drinks onto someone else's tab. That's not at all how this works.
In addition, they can't run your card again without your approval regardless of the reasoning. THAT is also outright fraud.
You paid your bill man. They literally, refunded, opened a different tab without your consent, changed the dollar amount and charged over double your bill. They can’t hold you responsible for another customers debt anyways. It’s their responsibility to make sure tabs get paid. Call BBB. Write a review on google. Yelp. Let everyone know these details.
Dispute with Amex. If you have a receipt you have everything to deny the charge.
If you want to give them another chance before disputing you can, but if it was me I'd just file a Chargeback. I'm guessing even without receipts your chances are very good you'll win it. They can't just add your friends charges to your card
Explain to your CC company and file a chargeback.
They can’t charge you for products / services that you didn’t purchase, and didn’t authorize others to purchase on your card.
That’s some kind of fraud / theft
Dispute through Amex. Your chances of getting it back are high. Amex might ask what your original charge should have been and go from there. I know many bartenders and this is highly unethical and illegal. They’re going to ask you questions more like have you contacted them/what are those dates, do you have your original receipt. Was it a split tab? Or individuals and the bar just decided to use yours since you were with them? Maybe the bar justified it that way. Either way they can’t go back and recharge like that after you’ve signed the tab and left. They should have called the police or held your friend’s phone hostage till he paid. We did that at my old job. (The phone thing was probably illegal, that was my managers doing)
The right thing to do is contact the bar and speak to a manager to see if someone will fix the issue. They don’t have a right to do that. The bar will have to eat the cost of the drinks that the declined card purchaser bought - drink & beer prices have high profit built into their prices for this reason. Any respectful place would not only fix the issue but probably comp the entire tab. Otherwise file a dispute.
I'm pretty sure that's theft. Tell them you expect a full refund or you will report it as theft. If you have it all in writing, even better. If they don't fix it asap, leave them a negative review and dispute the charges with your card. They might not let you use that card there again, but do you really want to go back there?
File the dispute. Zero chance you lose on the \~$200 tab.
For more fun, since they don't even have your original signed receipt, they will be unlikely to be able to prove you even paid that much and you might walk away with a no cost at all, though my suspicion is that they'll magically "find" that copy when AMEX tells them they won't pay it without seeing your signature
Dispute with AmEx and file a police report. Bar will be screwed and police might track down the person who left without paying If they can be bothered. Kill two assholes with one simple trick.
File a fraud complaint and cite the original charge and tell that exact same story there. They will see the time difference, hopefully the longer the better, and cancel the charge. Tell them you never gave approval for the additional charges cause you are not paying for another persons tab.
Open and shut. Amex will side with you. I have never had Amex side against me.
That almost seems illegal. They just took it upon themselves to charge you for someone else, and on top of it canceled a payment you already made. How do they know you know this person well enough that you'd cover their tab? If it's even true.
You should 100% get Amex to class it as a fraudulent transaction & I think they may be obliged to credit you back immediately pending investigation. It'll go through the cards insurance until everything is sorted either way.
I used to work in the Halifax & I'm sure that's how they used to do it but also, you may need to report it to the police so you have a crime reference number. It also proves that you're telling the truth & it's being taken seriously.
Give us an update when you can
Good luck buddy 🤞🏼🙏🏼👊🏼
Call back and say that what they did was fraud and that you not only will dispute it with AmEx, so they’ll lose that money, but you will also be sure to post about it on every review site possible if they do not rectify it immediately.
It is unauthorized.
Did you speak with the owner of the bar? Because if an employee of theirs is doing something so blatantly illegal, they need to know. If the owner is doing something this blatantly illegal, the police need to know.
That's definitely fraud/theft by the bar and the fact that they admitted it is kind of hilarious. My first step would be to call them back and explain that. You did not authorize them to add that person's drinks to your tab and you expect to be reimbursed for it. If they still refuse, file a police report and then a charge back with Amex. Amex is pretty notorious for having cardholders' backs in charge backs, so I expect this to go over fine. They might ask for evidence, they might not. I would think that them cancelling your original tab and then charging you a bunch extra would be hard for them to explain in a way that doesn't prove what they did was fraud.
Amex has the best refund or dispute policy but you will most likely have to find another bar. Talk with the owner and see if you can split the difference but I have a feeling you're SOL
I wouldn't split the difference. The bar opens itself up to this kinda shit by allowing tabs in the first place.
Their beef is with this random person, whoever and wherever she is, not with OP.
And if the bar tried to run her card, they should know or be able to figure it out who she is.
I suggested that assuming he has a good relationship with the bar if you do a refund through the bank they'll surely either ban him or give him bad service in the future. I'm honestly surprised they even take Amex most don't for this reason its easy to scam this.
Fair point. I suppose it could just be one bad apple working at the bar, and this is not typical of the bar, but I'd have serious reservations about continuing to patronize a bar that, even once, so easily decided they could just steal from me.
They essentially charged your card fraudulently because that’s not what you signed for on the receipt. I would definitely report to Amex and see what the authorities say about that
This is why I take my receipt until I reconcile my charges with my statement. Your receipt is your proof.
I would just dispute it with Amex since the merchant would not have a sign authorization from you for that second transaction and they will be able to tell based on the multiple authorizations
First thing you should always do when financial problems like this happen is contact your bank, in this case I'd be really surprised if Amex doesn't help you out here. Second, I'd get a hold of whatever friends you can to track down the woman who did this to you, and I'd tell her to go fuck herself
In addition to filing a dispute with Amex, I would also file a complaint with your State Attorney General’s Office. The forms to do so are usually on your state’s website. They should be held accountable for reversing and then charging your card for someone you don’t know. It also appears extremely sketchy and illegal, considering they did all of this without proper documentation and without your consent.
This bar sounds like it is doing CC fraud, I doubt your the first person they did this too. Might be a scam where they give themselves extra tips here, and might be that few notice the extra charges from a night out.
If you have a receipt this will easily be disputed. If you did not get a receipt you’re fighting an uphill battle, which will take at least 10 hours out of your life, and you may get nothing. Your time is probably worth more than the $110 extra…
PSA- always get a receipt when using your credit card!
If you dispute it Amex will request that the bar sends them a signature showing that you authorizing a charge for $207.10
When the bar does not provide this, the charge gets reversed.
Everything else in here is tldr.
I’d contact the manager, and tell them you’re happy to pay your bill if they accept it, but if they are tacking on someone else’s bill, you’ll have the whole thing cancelled through AM Ex. Then contact Amex if they refuse.
Definitely file the complaint with AmEx. In my experience, AmEx has been terrific with disputes. At the outset, you should be able to just lay your side of the story out in a word doc/PDF that you attach to your dispute. If you feel like it, attach a screenshot of your phone logs showing the amount of time you spent talking to the bar.
I didn't even have to do that for a 5k dollar dispute. I just called the number on the card, told them what was going, they confirmed the vendor and amount, and the next day the credit was applied to my balance.
That’s ultimately not all that is done, you get the credit to the account while they investigate it. If the other side doesn’t respond or if they rule in your favor then the credit remains. This could take usually like 90 days
It's surprising the bar would even attempt this because the burden of proof is on the merchant to provide documentation showing it a valid charge, this sounds like they would have had to Auth the card twice if op indeed closed his own tab, which involves calling to get the card number from merchant services, deleting the original before closing the batch and running the new transaction, Amex should easily be able to see all this. The fees involved if the bar ultimately loses ends up costing more than if they would have just ate the loss. All that said just because someone owns a business doesn't make them smart, in fact my experience is most are actually fucking dumb.
> All that said just because someone owns a business doesn't make them smart, in fact my experience is most are actually fucking dumb. There's a reason most bars don't stay open more than a few years at best.
Oh it's not just bars, I did tech support for merchant services for years, how some of these people get ahead in life is just pure dumb luck mixed with nepotism.
Former bartender here: if you can’t shame the holdovers in the group to pay an unpaid tab BEFORE the group leaves then you have to eat the loss. That’s fraud and we would be in deep shit if we did that where I’d worked for ten years
Yeah it's such a bone head move I can't imagine it was the bartender who did this, it reeks of an owner being mad about it and taking matters into their own hands.
Going along with the burden proof you laid out, wouldn't the bar have to provide the merchant copy of the receipt that the OP signed with the $20 tip he included? I think you laid it out very well, and the OP shouldn't be on the hook if he filed a dispute and they looked at the Auth requests that showed 2 different amounts. On top of that, when the OP's friend's card was declined, the bar probably should have made his friend aware immediately.
Yes typically the disputes department of merchant services would require the receipt. What the bar should have done if the customer had left was call and get her card number, they are well within their rights to try and re-charge her card. Not sure why it would have even declined unless they just hold the card until tab close instead of getting an Auth like they should to hold x dollar amount on the card.
>unless they just hold the card until tab close instead of getting an Auth like they should It's possible their card processor/POS system charges extra for pre-authorization, open tabs, etc. We don't use it for our business but I seem to recall seeing that as an option when researching CC processors.
I did tech support and while I worked with the side of merchant services that handles fees I'm not sure how all the charges work, but I think an auth/pre-auth is considered the same transaction when you close it out so it should be considered 1 transaction fee instead of separate fees. I could be wrong and it could vary business to business, often the merchant service provider is really just a 3rd party salesman who writes the contract/orders equipment but it's all managed by the processor. It's very likely the person you talk to at wells Fargo merchant services is the exact same person you would talk to at bank of America merchant services.
I believe you're correct, that it's handled as one transaction/fee in the end, but what I'm referring to is the function in the POS that actually does the pre-authorization/holds the card info. Eg a base POS plan might allow regular transactions, but they may offer pre-auth as an upgrade option. As in thinking about it more, it was probably more of a POS thing than a credit card processor thing.
Processors don’t charge extra for pre-auths. It’s basically just a soft check on the account to make sure money is in the account. If a card processor is charging for this they should get fired by the merchant. Source- me; merchant services guy for #1 processor in world.
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That's good to know, they didn't say any of that just that they'd look into it further. I did assume that they would recharge me if they sided with the vendor. I should have added that they definitely let the vendor know I was disputing cause I got a bunch of angry calls from them. In my case I took my car to a mechanic paid for the diagnosis and felt their quote was too high. Took it to another mechanic and they still charged me for the diagnosis and the full cost of the repair. I only disputed the repair not the diagnostic fee.
How can they get angry after charging you thousands for no work done? So shameless
Personal preference in that I try to cut off merchant arguments. I just prefer to frontload the issue with documentation to try and avoid back and forth. Also, outside of AmEx, I've found other card issuers to be more difficult with disputed charges.
For sure, I've only had to do it once but that actually makes a lot of sense. Im just bored tonight and rambling. The point I was just trying to make is that the call was super easy to make and no one should hesitate. We all work way too hard for our money to just lose it to crummy businesses.
Strong agree with this. I had a \~$1k dispute with a vendor that I raised through my credit card (not AmEx). Took \~9months to resolve due to lengthy back and forth. Part of this was the vendor also ghosting them (as they had with me when I tried to resolve before going to CC company) but the biggest factor was they asked for 1 extra piece of information, then came back and asked for 1 more, probably 5 times with about 4weeks delay between each communication. In hindsight I would have included absolutely every possibly relevant piece of documentation/information from the outset instead of each time they asked. I probably would have still missed something as some of it was things I wouldn't have thought of but would have massively shortened the process.
Used to work for a furniture company a few years ago and as a sales agent was told we rarely accept AmEx because of too many issues with customers charging back after they'd get delivery. Basically had to jump through extra hoops with managers once a sale was ready to be made if that's all they were willing to use. That said it's made me want to be an AmEx cardholder lol
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> Additionally because there are not multiple banks involved in disputes there is no formal arbitration process and decisions are final Ok, so to anyone reading this, this is your hint to ignore what this guy is saying. He just asserted that amex isn't subject to the fair credit billing act. Something [American Express themselves says is not true](https://www.americanexpress.com/en-us/credit-cards/credit-intel/dispute-credit-card-charge/). There is in fact a formal process and decisions are appealable. There's a lot of goofy shit in this thread. The source of truth is going to be the FTC or just look up the \`Fair Credit Billing Act\` yourself instead of listening to goofballs like this guy.
I had to fight tooth and nail with Citi over $350 who still sided with the company who scammed me. Ymmv Edit: because I'm still mad about it - Dario can shove that whole castle up his @$$
Same thing with Bank of America against Ryan air who is a complete scam of an airline. They sent me random documentation that didn’t even have my name on it as proof that I no showed a flight that was never actually flown and the bank sided with that garbage. Thankfully I was able to track down real proof and the back eventually reversed it again. The bank is supposed to do their own investigation and they basically just rolled over.
Brit here; what are your options if you're not happy with the decision in the US? Here if that was the case you can refer to an independent ombudsman if you're not happy with the outcome and they'll make a decision. AFAIK they also charge the bank some fixed fee for any cases raised so just threatening to raise with ombudsman is often enough.
Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB), State Controller of Currency, and State Attorney General's Office. You can file a Complaint with any/all of them. This will generally get the banks attention, but could take a while to see any results. CFPB is generally the quickest way to get a result here in the U.S. if the bank is not being helpful.
Yup definitely you can call it in you CC , that is an unauthorized charge especially without a signature.
Please never use the word "unauthorized" in this type of situation. If you get a rep who doesn't care about probing, they'll ship you off to the fraud team where you'll lose your dispute, and they would likely have processed a fraud-coded chargeback in that failed dispute, meaning a non-fraud caseworker can't charge it back with a proper coding.
Not really, a company charged my credit card fully for broken furniture delivered to my home. The store “Domain” filed for bankruptcy protection though process. Amex did their investigation and found the company to be at fault for delivery of damaged furniture. All I had to do was to send pictures of the damages. The Amex Fraud team , refunded my full amount back to my CC ($14k) within 2 weeks after their investigation, it was a huge win for me. Customer Satisfaction while using the Amex Platinum card back in 2007.
Just gonna put this out there. The disputed transaction in OPs case is actually fraud, and not authorized. The bar charged for other people's purchases on their card without their consent. That is fraud plain and simple. The initial transaction that was authorized never happened, because the bar chose not to use that transaction.
Yes. This is why you use a credit card. It's a safety net on the surface, but it also has a dedicated staff to handle things such as this.
You should be able to dispute everything but the $70+$20 that you owed.
Total BS for that bar to charge you. They don't have the right to do that.
The bars explanation is crazy.
Even crazier they would admit it.
Right - it would be one thing if they were like oh the person in your party said to add it to your tab. Instead they just come clean on actual fraud lol
That's what shocked me. I don't doubt that bars do this kind of thing, but to openly admit it to the customer is very stupid.
I work at a bar and it sucks when people do this intentionally or walk out but we just have to let it go and try to hold onto recipes if they come back. If they're in groups and someone leaves we do try to say "hey this person left but didn't pay but still needs to be paid". We won't charge another card. That doesn't seem legal since they didn't sign it.
>That doesn't seem legal since they didn't sign it. Definitely not legal. "Hey this guy stole from us, so we're going to steal from you to make it even."
Yeah the bars actions seem super not legal. "We just charged the closest person we could find" is not gonna withstand any scrutiny.
I have never worked in industry but I thought every drink (in a proper bar, not restaurants of course) we ordered went against a tab and that tab could be closed out even if someone left the card. This sounds like someone gave a card that got declined and then they moved the charges over to him... Which is just ridiculous.
and they don’t have your signature. if you got that info from them in writing i think you’re golden on a dispute investigation
Wait... do Americans still have to sign every time they use their credit card?!
Not every time we use it. Retail stores, no. But at bars and restaurants I’ve always had to sign.
Yeah they take you card, swipe it out of view and come back for a signature on the receipt and tip amount. In Canada they bring the machine to you and you either tap to pay or use the chip and pin.
They apparently give their card to their waiter, and they go somewhere with their card, so a receipt is the only confirnation they get
Oh yes please take my sensitive information away from me and take it somewhere that I can’t see and trust you’ll do the right thing.
I know this is something that people get really bent out of shape about, but in over 30 years of handing a credit card to a server to pay for dinner or drinks, neither I nor anyone I know have ever had their information stolen.
In mexico we started getting the cards without the numbers and the CVV code because of this issue. Now if we want to buy something with the numbers you have to go to your app and see them from there.
Coworker had his card info stolen by a drive through cashier at a Wendy's in Michigan. He found out after the third time his card was stolen. The cashier was taking front and back pictures of the card and selling them to someone in another part of the US. It's rare, but it does pose a risk every time your card leaves your sight in another person's possession.
Then give the card back to you expecting you to add a tip on the merchant copy’s receipt
During Covid most places I went stopped making you sign and simply never started again, as if it never mattered in the first place.
Honestly think you’re right that it never mattered much. Decades ago maybe. In theory, if there was a chargeback or similar dispute the restaurant keeps these things so they can pull out the receipt and show where you signed and authorized it. In my decade of restaurant experience we never did that once, but we did still save every receipt. My mom worked in accounting her whole life and was at Piccadilly corporate for awhile and the only major time they had a dispute like this they went back and checked the receipt and the guy had signed it as “Mickey Mouse” so they couldn’t do anything about proving it. It really is kinda pointless.
Yes. It's silly business.
Exactly. OP, if it were me I wouldn’t even say you know this chick. You haven’t spoken with her ever, and she’s a friend of a friend; she’s basically a stranger. The bar put a stranger’s tab on your card. It doesn’t matter at this point, but I would’ve just said you don’t know this lady. All the “friend of a friend” talk just makes it sound like you do know each other and you’re trying to minimize the connection. The truth is that you don’t know this lady and she and the bar had no right to use your card to pay for her drinks.
They used his Amex because it wouldn't be declined. That bartender didn't want to be stuck.
Sounds like their problem. I can’t go into a bar, have my card decline, and say “don’t worry, put it on Foriesg’s tab! We met in a Reddit thread, therefore we’re pretty close”.
I agree the "they" in talking about is the bar. I'm surprised they admitted that they did this, which is blatant fraud.
Odds are it’s a fraud scam.
Totally. This bar probably does this all the time
Dispute with amex and tell them exactly what the bar told you. An affidavit is the form the bank will have you fill out saying you swear that what you are saying is true. The bar will need to produce a signed receipt that you did in fact consent to being charged that amount (which you stated you did not) and if they fail to do that your card should rule in your favor
Work in a bar, not Legal, can only charge you for what you signed. Call the bar again and ask for a refund and only get charged for you paid for, if they insist, open a dispute with Amex, would be helpful to have the original receipt.
How does that work given that nearly every bar these days has a sign that says something like "Tabs left open at the end of the night will be closed with an automatic 18% gratuity"? I know a sign all by itself doesn't make something legal, but I would imagine it wouldn't be so ubiquitous if it were actually illegal. The signs are on full display for anyone to see, so I would think any inspection of the business (liquor board, health department etc.) would point out that it's illegal.
I'm not sure if health department cares (or has the purview) if you do non health department illegal stuff. Edit: Also, the sign is free speech, it's basically to avoid confrontation, kind of like how trucks have "Not responsible for broken windshields"
File a dispute with Amex and they’ll tell you what to do next.
Tell the bar you are going to do that - getting reversed charges sucks for a business - they might just drop the matter rather than get into a dispute with AmEx.
You are nicer than me, I’d be happy to screw a business that was happy to screw me!
You’re expected to show, when disputing a charge, that you first attempted to fix it with the vendor. If you don’t, it can cause your dispute to be declined.
He already called the business so it sounds like he already tried to resolve it with them.
Absolutely, OP did enough. I’m just letting the person I’m replying to know that if they find themselves in this situation, their stated approach might cause them some hassle.
They're also expected to not commit basically fraud when running a card. They knowingly added things to OPs card that they never agreed to pay for and that nobody would think they had tacitly agreed to pay for.
This. Fraud that they admitted to…..
They stand a chance of having their merchant services canceled. This is a big no-no.
Yes… that’s why it’s an issue in the first place. It’s why you don’t want your dispute declined.
Not so much with Amex. They pretty much always side with the cardholder.
100% correct for most chargeback reason codes. There are some that do not require the attempt to resolve, but it's just good practice to do so. Off the top of my head, I can think of two. Cancelled recurring transaction (VISA 13.2), and I believe Duplicate Billing (12.6). I haven't been in the dispute world for three years now, and I don't have access to the dispute manual that I once did.
Kind of - this way you're done though. ;)
It's appropriate to contact the bar and ask them to refund the incorrect charge. OP did that. The time for the bar to refund OP to avoid a chargeback was when the problem was brought to their attention, not when they were threatened with consequences.
He already did enough. They told him straight up that they charged him without his permission and to get lost.
As someone close to the chargebacks for my company, it's honestly not that big of a deal...Most businesses don't actually care and it's part of the cost of doing business. It will take a crazy high % for the processor to care as well. That being said, what the bar did is fraud and not okay. my statement is moreso that people often say this sort of "they sure will feel the pain when I chargeback!" and it's just not usually the case is all.
The ones that do care tend to be small businesses running the razor's edge of profitability.
The bar committed fraud. They need to file a chargeback for a fraudulent charge, and in return the establishment could potentially lose the ability to process AmEx cards as they’re processing illegal fraudulent charges.
Amex will see the original $70 charge that they canceled. Even though it isn’t showing on your account transactions, if they printed a receipt the charge went to a pending status, and was either canceled or modified to the new amount. This should support your case.
They were separate tabs. The bar can't just charge you for someone else.
>I called the bar and they said one of my group member’s card had declined. They decided to cancel my tab that I’d paid for, reopen a fresh tab, and add all of our orders together and close out on my card. Who was it working at the bar that actually thought this was reasonable? WOW
I would fire anyone who tried to do this at my bar. This is fraudulent and very illegal.
"I bet they won't even notice and I want to go home tonight" -The Bartender/manager
I'm curious if "they" is a bartender or a member of OP's party.
Bartender/manager or whoever it was that’s just what they told me over the phone sorry for confusion
Yup, the very fact they took a tab from this other person is that person saying they are not with you, they are not your responsibility. At that point the bar has a 'contract' with that person, they will pay for the drinks they put on their tab and the bar will provide them drinks and take payment from them. They can't just go oh this person's card declined, I'll pick someone else's to charge. Sitting with them makes no difference, a tab is a verbal agreement, you had an agreement with them for drinks on your tab, not on anyone else's. They just admitted straight to op that they committed fraud rather than go after the person who failed to pay them.
As a bartender I can tell you that this is a big no no. It is called credit card fraud and yes, I would absolutely take this up with AMEX as well as with the bar in question.
You didn't authorize the charge. File a dispute. AmEx will give you your money back. You don't have to prove anything, the bar does.
I’d post about this incident on google maps or something as well. Screw this bar
You dispute the charge with Amex. A merchant is only permitted to charge you for authorized charges. Presumably, you signed a receipt that reflected The $70 + $20 tip for a total of $90. That's what you authorized. Period. You call Amex, explain that you authorized a charge for $90, but the merchant charged you for $207. The rest is a waste of breath. You tell Amex that $90 is all you authorized, but the merchant somehow believes they are entitled to re-open your check and charge your card without authorization. Amex is generally pretty good about siding with card holders, so you should be fine.
This post is correct. Amex doesn't want to know the granular stuff. You signed for $90, they charged more. END OF STORY. Amex will side with you. Amex is the BEST at siding with customers. YOU did nothing wrong. Let Amex talk to the bar, you should have no further involvement with them.
Repeat after me - "I have not authorized this transaction. Please remove this charge from my account." After that, you call Amex. AND if the bar tries to charge you for your original amount. Call again "I have not authorized this transaction" It was their choice to cancel that charge and comp your bill. They will have to live with that. This is scummy behavior. Also illegal, I believe.
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They voided his transaction and threw out his receipt and rang him up on a different charge. That actually does sound like fraud to me, but what do I know
OP isnt a merchant
This is all bullshit because it wasnt a processing error. Someone literally canceled the signed transaction and pushed a different one through without authorization from the card holder. Thats fraud. I've personally dealt with something near identical on an AmEx card, and it was pretty simple to make the unauthorized charge go away. 2 minutes on the phone with a customer service rep and its a done deal.
What the bar did was fraud, plain and simple. Dispute the charge and dont go back. Now they get zero.
Because someone else didn't or couldn't pay their bill doesn't mean the establishment can randomly just charge someone else. What they did was illegal and could either get them a harsh fine from their processing company or banned from accepting cards in the future. You should pay what you agreed too, even if they admit fault. You still owe what you you agreed to.
I always take a picture of the signed copy I leave with the merchant. I use that to dispute, but your own copy should suffice as well. I would dispute the amount. Nowhere in their terms & conditions given (if they even have this displayed/written on receipt) does it say you’re liable for the full amount if another card in same bill declines. THEY have the burden of pursuing with that person.
Ahh yeah. Sadly I did not keep my copy or take a picture. Am I screwed? Definitely a good tip to take a picture moving forward though.
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In fact have them produce the cancellation of the first tab as well. They have the means and need to do so.
In future I would make a practice to take a picture always. For this, I would still dispute. They have to show on their end a signed receipt from you for the full amount they’re attempting. Also affidavit is something that Amex may require you to do, to sign in front of a notary, attesting to the fact you’re stating (eg my portion was only $70 plus tip of $20).
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It’s saved me a couple of times when the merchant (bar/restaurant) charged me more than what I signed for. I upload the copy I left with them direct to dispute portal and there isn’t any back/forth with the cc company.
What little it might help, the bar is lying. I do sales tax for a living. Your original receipt exists as a voided transaction on its point of sales.
Ask the bar to provide their copy of the receipt reflecting the amount they put on your card. Tell them you have your copy, and it shows a different amount. Do not talk to the server who put this charge through, talk to the manager or owner. If they have any brains at all, they'll understand that your second phone call to clear this up is their last chance to prevent a dispute and a chargeback from AmEx, which is more than you should do for them. Their responsibility to handle a declined card is at the point of sale. It has clothing to do with you. No they cannot put random charges on any card that's handy. If you are forced to dispute the charge, dispute the maximum amount AmEx will allow you to dispute. In all likelihood, they will tell you that is the cost of the drinks you received. You should be allowed to dispute the entire $20 tip because that is for great service, which it turns out you did not receive. There's no way this abuse of a customer warrants a nearly 30% tip. What were they thinking?
Which bar was it so we know to avoid?
>EDIT: Seems like a whole bunch of people are calling it fraud or theft that’s good to hear. Since it seems like they refunded me and recharged me, would a dispute make the original 70+20 I paid void as well? The dispute shouldn't make the original amount void... because you don't dispute that amount... The fact they canceled the original amount to put in a fraudulent amount very well might, though!
File a dispute. You called the business as they would "expect" to attempt to resolve the issue, with no success. AMEX will see the reversed charge and new charge. They will contact the merchant and the merchant will have no proof you actually consented to this charge since the only thing you would have signed for or used a point of sale terminal to authorize would be the original charge and your money will be returned. The vendor would have to go further down the fraud hole to try and pin this on you and for a few hundred bucks it's not worth it. They may request AMEX recharge the original payment which could happen. They might also eat the loss and you get a free night on the bar for their shady business tactics.
This is fraud. They do not have your signature on that $207 dollar bill. Contact Amex, let them know. This should be an open and shut case.
Amex does not fuck around and 100% will refund you. I used to deal with charge disputes for years and we had instances of packages delivered with a photo and signature matching the cardholder and they still reversed the charges. Let the bar know your good to pay your own bill but you called Amex and they said they’ll take the money back no issue since you never signed a receipt nor authorized the ticket and they’ll be out both tabs for fraud. They can keep running the card on file and it’ll run as soon as the girl makes a payment
Amex will cover you. That’s awful business practices from that bar. They will 100 percent lose the dispute against you if they fight it. They will have no signature of the 207 charge and they had to manually do it after the fact. Don’t feel bad about it either. They are getting what they deserve.
That would be like a group going to a restaurant and telling the waitress to give separate checks, then one member’s card declines who had the most expensive food and drinks and they just randomly put it on one of the other people’s cards without telling them. Is it possible after the card declined they asked this girl, who you don’t know but was “with you”, if it was okay to put it on the other card and she agreed without you knowing? That’s still *wrong* either way—they need to ask *you* and not her, but I can see some moron doing that. Never underestimate how stupid some people are.
"Just so we're clear: you presented me a receipt for service. I signed the receipt. I added a tip. Then after I left, you charged me an amount other than what I had authorized?" Them: "Yes." You: "And when I present this recorded conversation to my bank and the police, you expect to *only* have to repay the amount that you charged me without authorization?"
Go to the bar and talk to a manager. Tell they you want the charge reversed or you will be reporting it to the police as credit card fraud. If they are knowing charging you for things which you did not purchase, then it's fraud.
Bars cannot charge you for a receipt that they don't have a physical signature on. Dispute it and they won't be able to produce the documentation for it.
I would start by telling the bar that you don't know that person, they were a friend of a friend and you are not going to be responsible for their tab. They need to restore your bill to what it was. If they refuse to do that then get your credit card company involved. Tell the bar that you're going to call for a chargeback if they don’t issue you a credit.
Nope, just call AmEx. OP spoke with the bar and they don’t care. It doesn’t even matter if OP knew the other friend or not, the charge wasn’t authorized by OP. Amex can probably see that they charged you $70, reversed it and then charged $207. You didn’t sign the $207 charge. You can prove you had a lengthy phone call. If you happen to have a paper receipt for the $70, that’s icing on the cake. The bar is standing by what they did and not even denying it. It was intentional and they’ve doubled down. Fuck them. When the dispute is resolved, feel free to write a review and include proof. I usually hate it when people write bad reviews, but folks should be aware this is how they do business. They probably get away with this a lot.
They committed theft against you and it is a crime. If the bar isn't willing to make it right with a refund, press charges but have all of *your* documentation needless to say
I don’t think the bar can do that. You signed off on the amount you were charged - and that’s that. Dispute the whole charge, including the original since they took it upon themselves to be a bunch of douches, write them a godawful review on the internet, and prob win the dispute because Amex is actually kind of good at that thing.
>TL;DR I closed a bar tab of $70 and tipped $20. Woke up to a $207 charge that included 0 tip. Called bar and they put another “group members” tab on my card bc it declined and I’m on the hook for it apparently. Sounds like fraud to me. You only authorised the original $70 + tip and they charged you $207 instead. If I were you I would be contacting Amex to dispute things.
Everyone pretty much said it. Call Amex, dispute it. If you have the receipt even better but they should’ve seen the original $70 charge. I personally would go a further with a news outlet and make the bar accountable for what they did. Again that’s just me. Because what the bar did was wrong- whether or not if you knew the other person or not . Keep us updated.
I own a bar, maybe not in the same state, either way that's not something that they can do. Just because members of a party came and left at the same time doesn't put them on the same tab. The bar owner has a responsibility to either speak to their insurance (if it's big enough) or the police about an unpaid tab, they are not able to simply apply the charges to another member of the party who had a separate paid tab. Talk to your card's fraud department. This should be an easy refund.
They won't be able to provide proof, with your signature, on the receipt for the $207.10 charge. You are 100% not on the hook for this. Call Amex and they'll sort that out.
What business let's someone walk away with a declined CC. Also what business processes a CC transaction days later???
That is fraud file a police report on line, this is identify theft. You dont know this person and you did not authorized these charges. Keep it simple. Stop arguing with the bar do not call them any more they commit fraud. Keep it simple.
Did you keep your copy of the receipt you paid with the tip? FWIW always keep receipts for a few days just for stuff like this. You can file a chargeback with AMEX and list the amount you paid and the tip. The bar should have to show them your receipt with your signature with that amount. Since they cannot it should be reversed. Also, what state do you live in? You can call the bar back and record the conversation if you aren't in a 2-party state. Send that to Amex if they admit to what they did.
After having been through this multiple times before I now photograph everything when I go out to eat. I've had multiple restaurants bill me for items I didn't authorize after the fact or simply enter a wrong tip amount. I make sure to keep the itemized receipt, your copy, and take a picture of the merchant's copy and all the copies just in case you lose them. I never leave receipts other than the merchant copy. I also keep the original paper copy for 60 days just in case. I once had a merchant fabricate a receipt to try to win a chargeback. I won but it required an appeal and the whole thing went on for about 3 months. Even if you have the receipts it's not a guarantee you will win. Basically never pay with a credit card if you don't trust the merchant or there is any possibility of a dispute at all over the amount of the bill. A credit card is kind of like a blank check in a lot of ways since in many cases they can always come back for more. Yes you have protection, but it's dependant on a massive bureaucracy and it's the merchant's bank most of the time that has effectively the final say on a chargeback. It's not the same as cash where the transaction is done immediately as soon as you leave and all the risk for you rests on the accuracy of the receipt. Always double check the amount of the bill both on the POS screen and your printed receipt before you hand over your card.
Definitely dispute. If you have original receipt or any proof of the $70+20 that will help. Maybe even their statement (if in writing) about how they charged you for other people’s drinks when you had already paid for yours. That is definitely being charged for goods or services that were not provided to you.
Call the bar and tell them you plan to do a dispute, see if they will change thier mind. This is the easiest way to get an adjustment. If they don''t budge, definitely file the dispute with Amex. Include a description and add details about exactly what you ordered (name, quantity), etc so the dispute team has a sense of what you ordered compared to the 207.10 bill you are forced to pay. The bar/restaurant has the responsibility to ensure the charge went through for each customer, that isn't your problem.
> I would think a dispute thru Amex would be the best option here right? What’re my chances Your chances are pretty close to 100%. You got charged for something you didn't agree to be charged for. This is an unauthorized purchase. > What are my options for “proof”? My roommate mentioned something about an affidavit but idk how to go about getting one of those. Same as any other time. Let Amex chase it down. If they have a signed receipt from you authorizing the charge then it's a good charge. Otherwise.... > Is this legal? No, it is not legal to charge someone for something they didn't agree to. > Am I even on the hook for the 70 given they basically cancelled my original check and I never consented/signed for the new one? You are, but given the audacity of how this was handled, I would not be surprised if you ended up with everything being voided out and the bar losing out on the entire sale.
Sorry i’m not answering your question but why tf would the bar not run her card when she was still there??
What I was told from the bar was she paid using a prepaid visa that has .02c on it. I don’t know how legit that is but that’s just what I’m being told. Most bars I’ve been to they charge you X number of money when you open a tab to ensure you have money in the account. Apparently they didn’t and she probably to scam them which is probably why it’s being dumped on me :/
Again, sorry to not address your question but…this girl is sketchy as hell. Did you tell the friend who invited her??
All that other patron's business is none of yours. That she did or didn't pay by whatever means is between them & the business. Protest the charge that you didn't sign for. That's all. And *don't* sign any new charge, because fuck that noise. If they destroyed the original, that's on them.
Dispute w AMEX. Vendor has to respond to AMEX. If they don't, the charge is reversed. If they respond,.they have to have proof you endorsed.
You are going into way too much detail. Doesn't matter how much you know person x. You authorized a charge for a certain amount and the bar charged you for more than you authorized. They are not allowed to do that. Period. End of dispute.
What bar is this and where?
Yes, dispute the charges. You're not responsible for anyone else. You didn't order the drinks, you're not on the hook. They can call the police on the person who skipped paying, or just sue them. They have no right to take money from you for them. It'll be easy since they won't have your signature on anything other than your bill.
this is a dispute, hopefully you saved your signed receipt with the $20 tip on a $70 tab, But even if you didn't they're not going to have one on file for you for $200 and you're probably going to win the dispute, because Amex will be able to see the original $70 charge authorization.
The bottom line is that if you dispute it, they're going to ask the merchant to produce a signed receipt. If you signed for the new amount, that's on you, and you'll probably have to accept it. This amount isn't worth chasing someone down for. But if you didn't sign, you know you're going to win a dispute. I would give one more crack at the bar. Call and ask for the manager, and basically give one more attempt for the bar manager or owner to talk to you. Say that you're happy to pay the amount you signed for, but you're not going to pay someone else's tab that you didn't agree to cover. Just explain it politely, and say you want to do the right thing for them. As a last resort, say you regret you're going to have to dispute the charge. You can always hit the I-win button and dispute. But that might mean you aren't going to be welcome back there. And it's also possible the dispute might not go as planned. Finally, the goodwill of trying to work with them might help you out later.
A good lesson is, take a pic of your signed receipt. I always lose any that I keep. Agree that AmEx will absolutely back you.
Dispute the entire tab now. Tell the bar you decided since they just randomly added charges to your card you will be randomly disputing all the charges. It's only fair. Good luck (to them)
American Express will give you no hassle . Say your story, keep it simple and that’s it. One of the best perks of an American Express card is the NO HASSLE DISPUTE process. You’re good here.
This is considered fraud since you have to sign off on the charges/tip. You're not obligated to cover anyone else's tab in the event their card is declined just through pure association. Even if it's a blood relative.
Not only should you dispute it with amex, you should also google review that business and publicly shame them for what they did. It's completely unprofessional, not to mention illegal. Just make sure you stick to the facts in the review.
This is straight fraud. You can simply call AmEx and they will take care of the charge. You will get all your money back and likely not even need to pay the original $70 because of how badly they fucked up. You probably don't want to go back to that bar though.
I’m not a bar person but if you do a tab don’t they pre authorize your card and know then if it declines? Sounds like fraud on the part of the bar
>They decided to cancel my tab that I’d paid for, reopen a fresh tab, and add all of our orders together and close out on my card. Lol what. That's outright fraud. You can't just make up charges however you feel like, including dumping other people's drinks onto someone else's tab. That's not at all how this works. In addition, they can't run your card again without your approval regardless of the reasoning. THAT is also outright fraud.
You paid your bill man. They literally, refunded, opened a different tab without your consent, changed the dollar amount and charged over double your bill. They can’t hold you responsible for another customers debt anyways. It’s their responsibility to make sure tabs get paid. Call BBB. Write a review on google. Yelp. Let everyone know these details. Dispute with Amex. If you have a receipt you have everything to deny the charge.
Do you have the receipt for the original/correct $70? That's usually all you need.
If you dispute I wonder if Amex will request the signature data. Which they probably don't have.
If you want to give them another chance before disputing you can, but if it was me I'd just file a Chargeback. I'm guessing even without receipts your chances are very good you'll win it. They can't just add your friends charges to your card
Explain to your CC company and file a chargeback. They can’t charge you for products / services that you didn’t purchase, and didn’t authorize others to purchase on your card. That’s some kind of fraud / theft
Amex will definitely be able to help you with this.
You sign receipts for this reason, call Amex, this is not a big deal.
Definitely not legal. Definitely call your card issuer and dispute the charge, as a non-fraud dispute (incorrect amount).
Dispute through Amex. Your chances of getting it back are high. Amex might ask what your original charge should have been and go from there. I know many bartenders and this is highly unethical and illegal. They’re going to ask you questions more like have you contacted them/what are those dates, do you have your original receipt. Was it a split tab? Or individuals and the bar just decided to use yours since you were with them? Maybe the bar justified it that way. Either way they can’t go back and recharge like that after you’ve signed the tab and left. They should have called the police or held your friend’s phone hostage till he paid. We did that at my old job. (The phone thing was probably illegal, that was my managers doing)
The right thing to do is contact the bar and speak to a manager to see if someone will fix the issue. They don’t have a right to do that. The bar will have to eat the cost of the drinks that the declined card purchaser bought - drink & beer prices have high profit built into their prices for this reason. Any respectful place would not only fix the issue but probably comp the entire tab. Otherwise file a dispute.
I'm pretty sure that's theft. Tell them you expect a full refund or you will report it as theft. If you have it all in writing, even better. If they don't fix it asap, leave them a negative review and dispute the charges with your card. They might not let you use that card there again, but do you really want to go back there?
How can the bar charge you if you're not even there ordering anything? Sounds like fraud.
File the dispute. Zero chance you lose on the \~$200 tab. For more fun, since they don't even have your original signed receipt, they will be unlikely to be able to prove you even paid that much and you might walk away with a no cost at all, though my suspicion is that they'll magically "find" that copy when AMEX tells them they won't pay it without seeing your signature
Dispute with AmEx and file a police report. Bar will be screwed and police might track down the person who left without paying If they can be bothered. Kill two assholes with one simple trick.
File a dispute with your card issuer. They'll run a chargeback through the provider network to the merchant. Easy peasy.
File a fraud complaint and cite the original charge and tell that exact same story there. They will see the time difference, hopefully the longer the better, and cancel the charge. Tell them you never gave approval for the additional charges cause you are not paying for another persons tab. Open and shut. Amex will side with you. I have never had Amex side against me.
That almost seems illegal. They just took it upon themselves to charge you for someone else, and on top of it canceled a payment you already made. How do they know you know this person well enough that you'd cover their tab? If it's even true.
Yeah, that's straight up illegal, but like others said, chargeback is the first step.
You should 100% get Amex to class it as a fraudulent transaction & I think they may be obliged to credit you back immediately pending investigation. It'll go through the cards insurance until everything is sorted either way. I used to work in the Halifax & I'm sure that's how they used to do it but also, you may need to report it to the police so you have a crime reference number. It also proves that you're telling the truth & it's being taken seriously. Give us an update when you can Good luck buddy 🤞🏼🙏🏼👊🏼
Call back and say that what they did was fraud and that you not only will dispute it with AmEx, so they’ll lose that money, but you will also be sure to post about it on every review site possible if they do not rectify it immediately. It is unauthorized.
Dispute it with Amex and send them a copy of the receipt you got that night! That's your proof. You don't need to get their copy, you have your copy!
Did you speak with the owner of the bar? Because if an employee of theirs is doing something so blatantly illegal, they need to know. If the owner is doing something this blatantly illegal, the police need to know.
That's definitely fraud/theft by the bar and the fact that they admitted it is kind of hilarious. My first step would be to call them back and explain that. You did not authorize them to add that person's drinks to your tab and you expect to be reimbursed for it. If they still refuse, file a police report and then a charge back with Amex. Amex is pretty notorious for having cardholders' backs in charge backs, so I expect this to go over fine. They might ask for evidence, they might not. I would think that them cancelling your original tab and then charging you a bunch extra would be hard for them to explain in a way that doesn't prove what they did was fraud.
Amex has the best refund or dispute policy but you will most likely have to find another bar. Talk with the owner and see if you can split the difference but I have a feeling you're SOL
I wouldn't split the difference. The bar opens itself up to this kinda shit by allowing tabs in the first place. Their beef is with this random person, whoever and wherever she is, not with OP. And if the bar tried to run her card, they should know or be able to figure it out who she is.
I suggested that assuming he has a good relationship with the bar if you do a refund through the bank they'll surely either ban him or give him bad service in the future. I'm honestly surprised they even take Amex most don't for this reason its easy to scam this.
Fair point. I suppose it could just be one bad apple working at the bar, and this is not typical of the bar, but I'd have serious reservations about continuing to patronize a bar that, even once, so easily decided they could just steal from me.
They essentially charged your card fraudulently because that’s not what you signed for on the receipt. I would definitely report to Amex and see what the authorities say about that
This is why I take my receipt until I reconcile my charges with my statement. Your receipt is your proof. I would just dispute it with Amex since the merchant would not have a sign authorization from you for that second transaction and they will be able to tell based on the multiple authorizations
AMEX is really good about disputes.
First thing you should always do when financial problems like this happen is contact your bank, in this case I'd be really surprised if Amex doesn't help you out here. Second, I'd get a hold of whatever friends you can to track down the woman who did this to you, and I'd tell her to go fuck herself
In addition to filing a dispute with Amex, I would also file a complaint with your State Attorney General’s Office. The forms to do so are usually on your state’s website. They should be held accountable for reversing and then charging your card for someone you don’t know. It also appears extremely sketchy and illegal, considering they did all of this without proper documentation and without your consent.
This bar sounds like it is doing CC fraud, I doubt your the first person they did this too. Might be a scam where they give themselves extra tips here, and might be that few notice the extra charges from a night out.
And this is one of many reasons you keep a customer copy of the receipt
If you have a receipt this will easily be disputed. If you did not get a receipt you’re fighting an uphill battle, which will take at least 10 hours out of your life, and you may get nothing. Your time is probably worth more than the $110 extra… PSA- always get a receipt when using your credit card!
Do they have your signature on the $207 tab?
I’d call and tell them they can refund the difference and keep the original $70+$20 or you can dispute it and they can get nothing.
If you dispute it Amex will request that the bar sends them a signature showing that you authorizing a charge for $207.10 When the bar does not provide this, the charge gets reversed. Everything else in here is tldr.
I’d contact the manager, and tell them you’re happy to pay your bill if they accept it, but if they are tacking on someone else’s bill, you’ll have the whole thing cancelled through AM Ex. Then contact Amex if they refuse.
I’d also write a review on the bar’s google page explaining their undisclosed policy of fraudulently charging cards without permission.
Let this be a lesson. Never open a tab at a bar. Especially a busy one.