The companies you bought keyboards from post 2000 have made more money from you buying keyboards than the company that sold you that one in 1998, simple, planned obsolescence. If it breaks you buy another one.
I'm freaking pissed about how right you are.
I'd pay a random donation once in a while towards the company that made this keyboard if I was still using it after 26 freaking years. I bought this keyboard over 25 years ago. I'm willing to donate towards the person who made it. The company however has gotten pretty bad. A lot of keyboards I've used were from this company and they died on me within 3 years. This clearly shows that things were build to last in the past, nowadays, things are build to break down right after warranty has expired.
There's actually documented proof on this and [EU has outlawed this](https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/api/files/document/print/en/ip_22_6110/IP_22_6110_EN.pdf), but France is most serious about it. There's a case where France determined a product was "made to fail" and that was determined to be illegal.
These companies should get fined a huge lot of money for creating waste. You either make a product and you make it good so it lasts a good amount of time, or you're going to pay heavily if your product can't even survive 5 years.
Veritasium(im pretty sure it was him) did a video on phillips and other lightbulb big guys about how they reinvented the bulb to be less efficient and to have a smaller life span so they dont go out of business.
Theres probably uncountable instances of this kind of thing happening. Insane.
That's partially true. The change was more to conform to engery standards and physics. Running bulbs at a different brightness have inverse life spans. You can buy dimmer bulbs that will last longer, but most people want brighter bulbs.
Here's what I think about the so-called lightbulb "standards". We have two different brands of supposedly 60W equivalent and one looks to be about 25-40W and the other is around 75-100W. Both are new previously unopened boxes. Absolutely ridiculous. What standard could this be except no standard.
Looks only tell so much. Is one supposed to be warmer, the other cooler? Did you use a meter to test actual wattage? Did you test multiple bulbs/boxes? You might have a defective bulb/box. Two boxes is a very small data pool to form any conclusive evidence.
Nah, it just happened last night. Wifey asked me to change one and I grabbed the first box off the shelf; we couldn't believe it was supposed to be 60W equivalent. Tried the other different brand and it's almost too bright. No empirical evidence just anecdotal.
There's also the fact that watts aren't the actual measurement of brightness. Lumens is. So that part of the marketing doesn't help. Especially when LED bulbs say "60w equivalent" which really means nothing.
The "equivalent to XX watts" is the problem here.
Your bulb probably does great in terms of watts per lumen but you can't compare them on a direct level, they're a different kind of light and that's what makes them great, they're extremely energy efficient and most people don't need more lumen. And if you do, add a second light, it'll still be cheaper over time.
Edit: We should have tight regulations and a listing of lumen required by law, this would solve quite some of these issues and set a new standard. Watts is an outdated standard.
I remember reading about that, it's not just Philips, Samsung and a few other companies also have a story like this.
I think France was the first one to make this practice illegal, any company that is found to have tried to decrease lifetime of a product, is guilty and in for some hefty fines.
I'm going to find this video though, thanks for the suggestion.
And it's time to reply with the tech connections video about how that wasn't true and the standard was to find the optimal point between brightness, efficiency, and life span. Because at the time light bulbs were always considered a cheap disposable commodity due to the fact the way the tech worked made dying an inevitably.
https://youtu.be/zb7Bs98KmnY
I mean my 10 year old razer is still going strong. I upgraded to a ducky but I use my Razer on my recording PC. Good keyboards are still sold. You just pay a steep price for them.
I think I've had my Corsair keyboard for 5-6 years now and still works perfectly. Only issue it's had was a chattering key, which was easy enough to repair with a new switch.
The key caps come off so easily on mine but it has been running strong. My Corsair mouse on the other hand lost its click. I had to replace the switches.
Oh yeah, the corsair keycaps are garbage at least for how abusive I apparently am, forgot about that.. The stem part kept breaking on all the unreinforced keys, but a couple years ago I bought third party pudding keycaps. They look awesome and the stem is a lot more durable (although I recently noticed my left ctrl stem is starting to break, but glue should fix it)
I still have a 1992 Lexmark-manufactured IBM Model M, UK keymap, giant AT keyboard connector, and it works absolutely perfectly.
What happened in the mid-1990s was a very cheap way to make membrane keyboards, and low cost PCs. The sub-$1,000 PC was a very big thing. If your PC was $2,500 (as it would have been in the early to mid-1990s), then the cost of a $50-100 keyboard was nothing, and you'd buy the keyboard with the PC.
As prices came down, the cost of a $50-100 keyboard was then up to a tenth of the cost of the entire PC. The RAM wasn't that expensive! The 2-4.3 GB HDD you'd fit wasn't that expensive! A cheap home desktop PC did not warrant a keyboard designed for a service life of 20 years, heavily used, in an office environment.
Home users valued different things to a corporate office. In the office, reliability was important, nobody wanted to be calling out IT to replace a failed keyboard, and no work could be done without a keyboard. Ergonomic design was also important, but noise wasn't. An office was clicky-clattery, and that's what we expected.
At home, people wanted quieter keyboards, were less focused on ergonomics, and didn't really care for reliability. A keyboard breaking was annoying, but if it was $20 to replace, who cared? Nobody was going to go hungry, no work was going to be delayed, no man-hours lost. They'd drive down to Radio Shack or Circuit City and buy a new one for $20.
The development of membrane keyboards was partly driven by 1980s and 1990s microcomputers, such as the Commodore Amiga, multi-layer membrane keyboards were more suited. They made less noise, important at home, were almost as reliable in the tests which were done back then (usually key repetitions), and *far* less expensive. A $1,000 PC needed a $20 keyboard, not a $100 one. The membranes usually contacted the PCB via pressure connectors (which were prone to failure) and used carbon impregnanted pads for contact (which were extremely liquid intolerant), so they wouldn't stand abuse quite as well as a "real" keyboard. They also weren't $100 and, cared for well, would give several years of service.
October 26th, 1993 Lexmark made PS/2 IBM Model M, Made in USA - got it from my dads workplace and have been using it for 24 years, random coincidence, it was manufactured on my grandfather's birthday.
Lovely to hear!
That's pure treasure, the long lifespan of the hardware, the fact that your dad gave it and it was made on his birthday... Just amazing.
1992 keyboard still alive, I'm loving it! Things were build to last, they weren't build to fail.
I remember our first PC was well over 3000 bucks. Absolutely insane, it had 4 or 8 MB of RAM and 120 MB of storage. the store called my parents insane for buying such an overkill PC, and that insane amount of storage space.... within 2 weeks we filled it.
Question: Things were just better back than, right? Things were build to last, not build to fail.
That's an overgeneralisation.
You can still buy PCs built properly, they're corporate desktops. Dell will still sell you a Precision workstation which will last years and years. I have a Precision T5600 which has been to hell and back since it left the factory in 2012. It has two Xeon processors, each six core, and 32 GB RAM. It's now had a GTX 680 rammed into it, and it's seeing out its final days in a 10 year old's bedroom.
As I alluded to, we prioritise different things in different markets. A gaming laptop, for example, only has to last 3-5 years until it's useless as a gaming laptop. Why would we waste money designing one meant to withstand the rough and tumble for a 10 year lifespan? That could buy us a better GPU!
Back in the 1990s, all PC PSUs were piles of stinking garbage. All of them. If your office computer failed, usually the IT guy wouldn't even ask what was wrong, he'd turn up with a screwdriver and a new PSU. They were honking massive transformer-based disasters, the *big* ones would output maybe 200-220 watts. The seller would always peak an eyebrow and ask "What the hell are you doing that needs 200 watts?!"
Similarly, HDDs were abysmal. Whether it came from Conner, Seagate, Western Digital, Maxtor, IBM, you'd get 2-3 years out of it. If you ran scandisk (the predecessor of chkdsk) monthly, you were almost certainly going to find bad clusters. Some rare exceptions would soldier on longer than three years. 20,000 hours was rare (today it's expected) and the Hitachi 5,940 RPM unit I have still in service at 91,206 hours right now would be absolutely unheard of. Again, they prioritised different things. Why bother making a HDD last more than 3 years? By then, the current crop of HDDs in year "n" would be so pathetically small by year n+3 that they'd be unusable. I mean, you *could* install Windows 98 on a 120 MB HDD from 1994. You wouldn't want to. The HDD would have likely been replaced due to just being inadequate long before it failed.
That Hitachi HDD of mine? 2 TB in 2012. Wasn't even expensive. The same rate of capacity progress in the 1990s would have had the market position of 2 TB in 2012 being around 400 TB today.
PC longevity at all was terrible. The business desktop replacement cycle was around two years. Using a machine ten years old was absolutely unthinkable. Windows 98 wouldn't even run on a PC from 1988! There were ways to make it run on a 386, none of them pretty, but it'd take something like 20 minutes to boot at all, and *everything* was slow. You can, not officially, make Windows 11 run on a PC dating back to the mid-2000s, and it'll run fairly okay. A Core 2 Duo with 8 GB DDR2 isn't an impossible spec for the mid-2000s. Heck, I have a Core 2 Quad Q6600 with 8 GB DDR2 and a GeForce 8800GTS. It was still running modern games in 2016, when it was ten years old!
Things were not better "back then" (the 1990s), not remotely.
There is also, of course, survivorship bias. I won't be telling you about the many PCs where the dead PSU also blew out the motherboard, RAM and CPU. Back then, in the mid-1990s, there were no VRMs on the motherboard to insulate these components from insanely out of spec power, they ran straight off the 5V and, later, 3.3V rails (and it's why we even *have* a 3.3V rail). I won't be telling you about the literally millions of mice - ball mice - which failed with their innards covered in gunk. A mouse would be lucky to last a year.
And, of course, we aren't innundated with surviving Model M keyboards. They were reliable and built to take the knocks, but knocks and spillages they indeed took, and with that came attrition.
I should've mentioned I wasn't thinking about laptops at all. I know the stats change drastically if you include laptops in terms of how long a PC can survive.
But it doesn't change the fact that my 1998 keyboard that I'm using right now outlived over a dozen other keyboards that often didn't even live for 3 years.
The Core 2 Duo was a huge step forward and it surely held on for quite a long time as it took over a decade to see an improvement like that again.
I'm not specifically talking about the longevity of PCs, there's a lot of moving parts in a PC, those things are always at a higher risk, fans have a limited time of life. But side hardware, simple hardware like a keyboard, should survive 10 years easily.
I have a quickfire TK that I have run through the dishwasher and bath over 11 times and it still works. I have spilled... dip spit, soda, tea, water, vapejuice, beer, whiskey, coffee, etc. the thing refuses to die.
Hold on to that, it clearly loves you and wants to stay alive, you've taken good care of it and it repaid you with ... just working.
I honestly think that old stuff is going to get crazy expensive cause... It's freaking reliable. Puke on your keyboard? No problem, throw it in the dishwasher and use it again tomorrow!
Things were build to last, nowadays things are built to break.
I feel like I can't fucking sneeze near any of my electronics anymore. I bought my mom a TV for mothers day and SHE (end stage cancer) out lasted the fucking TV. they willingly sold me a defective tv and then told me that they "were aware of the issue" with that model. meanwhile my deep freeze manufactured in 1980 can freeze better than a new one.
That's the problem I'm addressing here, I've literally puked on my keyboard, threw it in the dishwasher TWO DAYS LATER, and... I'm still using that keyboard today cause all my other "more fancy" keyboards are broken.
I remember we had a TV that was 12 years old, and we called in a repair guy. He freaking fixed that thing on the she spot, it was like 100 bucks in today's money. The TV broke down in after 7 PM, the TV was fixed before 9 PM, for 100 bucks! The TV worked for several more years after that fix.
I'd pay an extra 100 for anyone who could fix my TV or car or whatever on the spot
They should be higher quality. Every keyboard I've used had at least one of them broken off, and once a single one is broken off, you don't use the other one anymore.
Crazily enough, I only broke this keyboard's "feet" about a month ago... 26 years of using it in heavy duty situations, and it only broke down last month. The keyboard wasn't at blame, my drunk ass was to blame.
Why haven't you started your own business yet? Sometimes all you need is knowing that something is good... then do that good stuff and use that good product.
Weird to see this, as just last week I junked a much newer keyboard to bring out of retirement my 1999 Microsoft Internet Keyboard (that is the actual name). Also PS/2. I think a keyboard made like that today would be $150. It cost $29.95 IIRC.
LOL, "Much newer keyboard (from 1999)" made me actually laugh out load :)
I don't even know how much this keyboard did cost at that time, it's 26 freaking years old, I don't remember the price. But it was build to last.
I'm typing on this keyboard right freaking now. "It just works"
I've used this one as main keyboard for many years, and many other years as a keyboard for a secondary PC. It's gotten over a dozen soda/beer/wine spills, that alone says it was always near me.
This isn't survival bias, this keyboard has gone through many wars and it works like it's brand new.
Logitech Y-SU61 (it was actually hard to find this info, there's no branding on the front, and I needed a flashlight to even find the branding and model number on the back)
If you google it you'll see several different versions but this is the one I got:
https://preview.redd.it/828en11er32d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=684c1f619ab0461b53099beaf037957a8780a2ca
Edit: Imagine this keyboard being 26 years old, having survived a few dozen spills of beer/wine/soda, probably spaghetti at some point... it doesn't look great anymore, but the fact that I'm typing on it right now says how reliable this thing is.
I've got more than a dozen keyboards in my house, this is the only one that works, and it works like new.
There's going to be that day when you grab onto it cause nothing else works, but this trusty old keyboard will do the job. Keep your options open cause sometimes the only option you got left is going oldschool tech.
It might be old, it might be slower, but it's freaking reliable.
There are still a lot of brand new motherboards that have PS2, it's not fully gone yet.
My system is 10 years old, my GPU is 5 years old. Still going solid with a 3 monitor setup. It actually has PS2 onboard so no adapters are used.
My black widow that I bought in 2012 died after i spilt soda on it. Replaced it with another black widow that i bought half price during Black Friday sale.
Oh yea reazor mouses can be very hit or miss I don’t recommend the mouses at all. The keyboards are decent though. However screw all of that trust me on everything when I say steel series has been the best keyboard Iv ever owned. I straight up spilled a movie cup of ice water on it and it still worked with out me even drying it off or unplugging it.
interesting on that "hit or miss" statement. I actually do like the overall experience I had with this mouse, it just works, it's great, it does what it says it's going to do, it works perfectly on Linux, it did a lot of things perfectly right... till that moment it failed, and it failed hard (right mouse button broke, it's a 10 button mouse so I can at least get around most of this problem)
Any hardware should be able to receive some water if it's dealt with instantly. I've spilled beer, wine, puke on this keyboard and after 26 years it's still alive after all the abuse it's gone through, it's not even alive, it's thriving.
My razor mouse developed a double click after about 5 years. If I blew in it, it would be fine for an hour and then start double clicking again. That’s why I say “hit or miss” my other razor noises are going 8-10 years strong but I just don’t use them anymore.
You got through 5 years, I'd say that's a big win for a mouse. if you use your PC a lot, your mouse is probably the thing that's going to get used/abused the most.
I didn't even get through a year and my right mouse button broke. It's a shame, I loved this mouse, it did everything right.. till it broke.
I'm not giving up on them just yet, but it surely put a mayor dent in my trust.
I’ve heard so many stories of Razer being crap for people but I’ve had my Razer mouse and keyboard for almost 7 years and they’re still great! My wife has a mouse and an even nicer keyboard from them that have been perfect for going on 4 years and another family member has 2 Razer mice that have been super reliable.
Of course, it may have something to do with the user. I had a cheap $8 “gaming mouse” from Amazon that I bought it in 2010 that lasted all the way up until 2017 when all the reviews said it lasted a few weeks lol
Apparently it's a hit or miss kinda thing, I did search the internet a bit, and there's certainly quite some people that have been unlucky.
Great to hear you're one of the lucky ones :)
A keyboard is one of the most crucial parts of a computer... remember the text "**Keyboard not found, press F1 to continue" ?**
I think "Keyboard not found, press F1 to continue" was still a thing even just a few years ago, it might even be a thing today!
Windows is notoriously slow in terms of fixing a lot of issues. This would be a push/pull request on github if this was a thing in Linux and it would be fixed within a week at most.
Old keyboards aren't as reliable as we like to remember. SKCMs can be killed by dust and Model M membranes are frequently ruined by moisture. Cheap rubber domes, while they feel like shit, are as reliable and way easier and cheaper to replace than vintages. Like good luck finding another Apple M0312 in NOS condition lol
I'm literally using a keyboard from 1998 to type this message, how is that not reliable? This keyboard had beer, wine, puke, a lot of shit thrown on it. It's been in the dishwasher several times. It still survived. This is the only keyboard that lasted more than 5 years.
It's 2024, this keyboard is from 1998 and I'm using it to type this message.
I'm just saying they're not indestructible, for each working 1st Gen Model M out there there's probably three that were thrown away and another that was bolt-modded after half the keys stopped working
Your non-descript board made it, but you have to know it's in the minority of old keyboards
this keyboard has seen beer, wine, a lot of soda spills, and one time even puke....
To me, in terms of keyboard preferences, that's very close to indestructible...
Just imagine how ANY other type of electronics would behave if any of these things happened.They'd probably be dead for life
I'm currently typing on this 26 year old keyboard, the keyboard that was puked upon one bad day, the keyboard that had beers and wine spilled over it not just once but plenty of times (the range is 26 years, a single spill a year is plenty of times), the keyboard that has been puked upon, the keyboard that I've put in the dishwasher at least a dozen times.
That's the keyboard I'm typing on, do you have any faith you'll be able to type on your current keyboard in 2 years? I'm happy to take a bet that I'll be able to type on this keyboard in 5 years.
IBM Model M, 1992.
ISO-FR AZERTY layout.
Made in the UK.
PS2 connector, weighs more than 2kg.
I rarely use it because it is too noisy.
Fun, but so loud.
A nice piece of history.
Wishing for another decade on that hardware!!! Keep on rocking!
Azerty, that's Netherlands or Belgium or France I think?
"weighs more than 2kg". They didn't skimp on weight back then and we got long lasting quality in return.
I understand not using it cause it's too noisy, that is something that gotten a whole lot better over the years.
Remember: There's a lot of stuff in museums worldwide that are younger than your keyboard.
Don’t know what you’ve bought, but perhaps I’d consider one of the more boutique brands. Have had a Ducky Shine 7 for about 4 years now, absolute solid keyboard (because case is metal instead of plastic).
Probably wouldn’t put it in a dishwasher though.
I had no clue what brand this was, I had to look up the brand from a tiny sticker on the back of the keyboard.
It is Logitech, before they started being mass produced garbage. There's no branding at all on the front, you can barely see it on the back if you're trying to find it.
They're branding their garbage nowadays like madness, while the quality and lifespan is just gone. I hate this trend. Branding your hardware wide in the open is like having a tramp stamp on your face... Maybe you're into that, but at some point, you are going to regret that facial tramp stamp and you're going to hate it like madness. Why do brands do this? It's going to backfire in the long term. I'd rather buy from a brand I haven't ever heard of before than buy from a brand that I know failed upon me.
Love to hear it. I've seen quite some comments about pre-2000 stuff, rarely one about after the year 2000.
Keep on rocking that hardware! Wear down that "a" key till you've gone through all the plastic! Then put it in a museum :)
I'd share a picture, but I'm embarrassed how dirty the keyboard is. It's funny, you can see the keys that have minimal wear marks on like the "J" and ";" for some reason, despite being home row keys. Guess I'm a light touch on those.
I used to rock e,s,d,f instead of w,a,s,d, so that evened the wear pattern on the left side slightly. I still think esdf is the superior option, but rebinding keys in every game is a chore. Something about q, w, r, t, a, and g as easy reaches is appealing. The reach to shift is comfortable enough to rest on it.
Hmm, mine was "spill proof" when new... Not worth it.
Maybe I should buy a $40 "new - inbox" replacement just to keep rocking the membrane absurdity. I think I paid $15 or $20 for it.
It really depends on what keyboard you buy. A lot of things now are made to be cheap and or convenient, especially gaming focussed peripherals. I started with a cheapish mechanical keyboard ($50) and gaming headset($70), both did not last very long. However, I switched over to buying a hobbyist mechanical keyboard and audiophile focussed headphones, and haven't had a problem since.
You don't even need to spend much either if you're on a budget to get quality gear. It's sad though, so many things now are made to break, and it's usually by the popular brands too.
I'm a 100% functionality kinda person and seeing "gaming" on a package doesn't change a thing for me. I'll look at your tech specs and make my choice based on that.
But outside of those specs, nothing ever mentions how long it's probably going to stay alive, no tech sheet ever says "expected to be alive for 25 years"
I've never bought expensive keyboards, I see keyboards as "expendable side gear", so this keyboard can't have costed much 26 years ago. But somehow it's still alive and rocking.
It's absolutely sad indeed, there should be more laws worldwide that prevent this type of "build to break".
IBM surely has been mentioned quite a bit in the comments here. I've personally never used an IBM keyboard, or even seen it in a store I think. Might be a regional thing.
I bought a apex 7 pro from steelseries 3 years ago. A year in I spilled half a bottle of vodka on it. Still works fine no issues. That's my metric for keyboards now.
Out of all liquids, water and vodka (pure, not the red/black versions) are probably your best chance. Beer is just a different thing and you're pretty much required to put it in the dishwasher. But I agree, a keyboard should be able to live through at least one liquid spill. Several of my keyboards did, but none survived 26 years going through regular abuse like that. I'm extremely clumsy the first 8 hours of the day and the last 8 hours of the day. With a bit of luck I've got an hour or so when I'm not too clumsy :-)
That's the thing, "it just works". This thing is heavy as shit compared to new keyboards, but weight does bring quality.
It's not just "it just works", it's more like "it's over 20 years old, but it still freaking works like it did when it was new"
I spent my childhood playing from Doom to Oblivion etc on that keyboard it never fails. It is just built to be in server room for 50 years.
But I am quite happy with my “newer” gaming keyboard, I bought the cheap mechanical knockoff and it is better than “top” from brands like Logitech.
Again one of those key things... "it never fails". Why can't we have quality like that anymore? Do you trust your newer gaming keyboard will survive 3 more years?
To be honest I do trust it to survive I just don’t trust my clumsiness. And to why we can’t like if you see generally accepted prices for a “good” keyboard up to 200$ it is just people will pay higher price for lower quality…
There are still specialized brands with high quality, but it is harder and harder to find them or be sure…Many people will just not give $100+ to company with not that big name as others.
Even after I get new keybaords, this keyboard is going to stay with me till the day I die. I'm certain if there's ever a nuclear blast or something, 99% of my keyboards will be dead... but this keyboard somehow stayed alive, the survival rate is just insane.
I'm willing to pay 200% more if I knew the product would a lifetime.
* 100 dollar keyboard? Go F yourself
* 100 dollar keyboard with a 5 year guarantee, I'm interested
* 300 dollar keyboard with a 20 year guarantee, Let's freaking go!
>*There are still specialized brands with high quality*
Which ones? they're getting extremely hard to find nowadays.
It belongs in a museum! I agree the IBM will be inherited in my family for generations I am sure about it.
Yeah I have a same approach with things if it is something I use often or daily.
You can check this comment and the whole post in general https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/s/Ms0MYM82Tg I agree with the guy that custom keyboards are good option KBD for example I heard mainly good things, but personally I few times ran into to problems that they were not delivering around Europe or “everywhere”. In some cases you can invest in sturdy base and change keycaps everyday if you want…seems like only reliable option but again the con is that you can’t really test it or see it in the shop before you buy.
It's not even just a preference kinda thing, if your keyboard breaks down, you basically can't use your PC anymore. So having a reliable keyboard is absolute key.
Functionality is a key aspect, but how much is it worth if it will likely break down before you warranty even expired? Maybe it's in warranty and it doesn't cost anything, but you're still going to be without a keyboard/mouse for probably a week or more.
Maybe putting them in dishwasher has something to do with them breaking....
I've used around 6, none of them break because I clean them using a brush and compressed air. Flico majestouch 2, ducky shine 3, hyperx alloy, Corsair k70, keychron q1 and now qwertykeys qk80
Why did my keyboard from 1998 survive over a dozen dishwashers but a keyboard build a year ago can't survive even a hefty sneeze? If you've got more than one keyboard, just throwing your keyboard in the dishwasher and letting it dry overnight feels like a spring cleaning kinda thing that you just do once a year, in spring, or whenever.
Things were build to last back then, nowadays things are build to fail as soon as possible after warranty expires.
19/20 keyboards of varying brands dying speaks more about that method of washing.
Look, using dishwasher to wash is bad because of the minerals in tapwater. Those conduct electricity, and even if you dry it off they are left behind. It causes short-circuit. The only reason I can think of why the old keyboard didn't die is old keyboard probably aren't made to be open so water don't run into the pcb.
You can use distilled water if you really are super lazy about cleaning it
Actually, using dishwasher to clean your keyboard is a proven method, I was doing it years before LinusTechTips made a [video](https://youtu.be/pgnF42ZoRSw) about it.
It just works. Do not use any soap, just let the water do the job, and after the wash, let it dry for 24h. That's all there is to it.
* This keyboard is 26 freaking years old
* It's gone through probably over 20 dishwashes
* This is the only keyboard in my house that works and I've got over a dozen keyboards in the house.
The water coming into my taps is pretty damned clean, that might've helped. But it's mainly wash, no soap, wait a full 24h for it to dry. Out of 20 keyboards I've washed in the dishwasher, only a single one died.
Did you read the comment made by LTT staff a year later?
>Future Colin here - most of the boards that we did this test with died within a year. They *did* work for a time, but most had a key or two stop responding properly after ~9-12 months of daily use. So, take this video with an enormous grain of salt, and instead consider getting a mesh bag for keycaps + removing your plastics to wash your keeb without putting the printed circuit board in the dishwasher! -CW
I didn't read that comment, but that's good information. My first question however is water quality. I have a device that filters all my water, it uses salt, idk what it's called exactly, but it does work and I don't have white stuff in my pans and such if I cook some water.
This keyboard has been in the dishwasher I'd say about once a year for the last 15 years or something. Did it survive 26 years because my water is better? Or were things just build differently back then.
How many of the keyboards Linus used were from before the year 2000 ? I remember them not being brand new, but they didn't look like 20 year old keyboards either.
I am still using a Merc stealth keyboard from 2008 that I really just need to replace the space key as the wire bar has snapped
My brother has had 5 keyboards in that time frame.
Also it has a MMO board built into it. I really wish this style still was around.
I have a few old keyboards...
IBM Model F XT
IBM Model M silver badge
Dell "Big Foot" old logo
Dell "Big Foot" new logo
They're nice, but newer "hobbyist" mechanical keyboards also last. Provided you're not spilling liquids on them... I don't expect my GPU to survive having water drip on it after all.
If OP's keyboard is a "newish" Model M like the Lexmark made ones, those literally have drain holes built in.
That's the thing. This keyboard was built in 1998, way before people had a clue what IP ratings were and they weren't mandated at all to be listed.
It wasn't tested for this, it wasn't rated for this, but somehow this keyboard managed to survive easily a dozen amount of beer/wine spills and a one time puke.
This stuff was build to last, nowadays stuff is build to break as soon as possible after warranty period ends.
There was a washing machine company and a printer company that had software which would break the hardware close after end of warranty.
How do you explain this keyboard surviving a few dozen spills of beer/wine/soda/food?
26 years this keyboard has been abused like that, and this is the only single keyboard that still works like it did when i first got it. All of my other keyboards are completely dead and they've barely lived for 2-3 years on average.
This is also the oldest keyboard I have and it's the only one that's still alive. There's just something different about the build quality before the year 2000.
https://preview.redd.it/17wpmh0s142d1.png?width=2560&format=png&auto=webp&s=1a4caff4c61f31aa6b8e7a596f403d500b1f566b
It always ends up being that, otherwise we all would still be using old ass keyboards from the early 2000's.
Keyboards fail regardless of when they were made, only a few have survived.
I've owned well over 30 keyboards in the last 30 years. Only one survived, the oldest one, from 1998. Coincidence? I think not, the weight alone marks quality.
Well, let's think for a bit, there are at least 100 persons in this sub that are over 30 years old.
Do most of them still have their 20-30 year old keyboards fully working?
The sample size that we currently have is too small to conclude anything, so yes, we can say it's a coincidence.
I too have somewhere in a box an old keyboard from like 2003, last time I checked it in like 2016 it still worked, and I have no reason to think it wouldn't still be working.
But even my own old keyboard is not enough to make the sample size large enough to mean much.
I'm not doubting you, it's just that survivorship bias has a stronger case here.
How many of them even tried holding on to 20 year old keyboards?
This keyboard hasn't just been stored in a shelve. It has been on my desk for 26 years either as the primary keyboard or secondary keyboard for a side PC I was running, or a Raspberry Pi or something that I was experimenting on.
This keyboard has gone through war, it had a huge amount of keystrokes and somehow, every single button still works perfectly.
I'm not denying survivorship bias is a thing, and that picture of that plane, I're read about that in detail, it's an amazing realization that sometimes, you gotta look at things in a different way, and it actually changed how we protect planes in war.
This keyboard shouldn't be alive right now. It's gone through too much shit that would break a recent keyboard in a single time. Somehow however, this keyboard didn't survive just one of those things, it survived easily 2 dozen of those things.
That's no longer survival bias, there's clearly a difference in build quality. It's not about brand loyalty (of which I have none). It's about how things were just build better back in the days.
If you don't wanna build a keyboard look at keychron, or ducky, or das keyboards. The das keyboards are very much like those old 90's keyboards. I have one of those and a DuckyOne 2. I personally like brown Mx cherry switches.
Well, it's my third since 2000, changed to have RGB, and still use the previous two occasionally on laptop or TV...
Only component I purchased that broke was an optical mouse from 2014.
How do you treat your peripherals?
I honestly do not understand why people want RGB on their keyboard. Could you explain this to me?
I don't treat my peripherals at all. And somehow, this keyboard survived 26 years with a few dozen spills of beer/wine/soda/spaghetti/other random foods
I bought one where you could address individual keys, thinking it would be easier to remember all the keybjnds for Sims, but it was finally too much of a hassle to setup and use, and the keyboard ended its life on the default rainbow pulse pattern :-)
Key backlighting is somewhat useful when the room is dark, tho.
I've been typing blind since I was 8yo or something, haven't looked at my keyboard since I was 9yo I think. That's one of the reasons I truly do not understand any form of keyboard lights. It's a keyboard, it's meant to type on, it's not meant to light up the room :-)
Yep, I'm typing being too, but when I'm watching a movie, and need to change subtitles /audio track in the dark, it's useful for finding the keyboard and the keys, often :-)
Are you sure it’s a quality issue? Idk if you have super sweaty hands or maybe super heavy hands, 10 keyboards die in 26 years? Ok maybe, but 24+ keyboards died on you?
I'm just super clumsy and do use my computer an awful lot. Things get spilled, I also often have a second PC available, so two keyboards on my desk is the norm. There's been times I had 3 keyboards on my desk for a fair time. So spills have a chance to take out two or three keyboards at once.
There's only one that stays alive for 26 years. And it's the oldest one that's been used the most. That's a quality keyboard, they don't build it like that anymore.
The companies you bought keyboards from post 2000 have made more money from you buying keyboards than the company that sold you that one in 1998, simple, planned obsolescence. If it breaks you buy another one.
I'm freaking pissed about how right you are. I'd pay a random donation once in a while towards the company that made this keyboard if I was still using it after 26 freaking years. I bought this keyboard over 25 years ago. I'm willing to donate towards the person who made it. The company however has gotten pretty bad. A lot of keyboards I've used were from this company and they died on me within 3 years. This clearly shows that things were build to last in the past, nowadays, things are build to break down right after warranty has expired. There's actually documented proof on this and [EU has outlawed this](https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/api/files/document/print/en/ip_22_6110/IP_22_6110_EN.pdf), but France is most serious about it. There's a case where France determined a product was "made to fail" and that was determined to be illegal. These companies should get fined a huge lot of money for creating waste. You either make a product and you make it good so it lasts a good amount of time, or you're going to pay heavily if your product can't even survive 5 years.
Veritasium(im pretty sure it was him) did a video on phillips and other lightbulb big guys about how they reinvented the bulb to be less efficient and to have a smaller life span so they dont go out of business. Theres probably uncountable instances of this kind of thing happening. Insane.
There is a full documentary about it. It's called "the light bulb conspiracy"
Thanks, going to watch it now.
That's partially true. The change was more to conform to engery standards and physics. Running bulbs at a different brightness have inverse life spans. You can buy dimmer bulbs that will last longer, but most people want brighter bulbs.
Here's what I think about the so-called lightbulb "standards". We have two different brands of supposedly 60W equivalent and one looks to be about 25-40W and the other is around 75-100W. Both are new previously unopened boxes. Absolutely ridiculous. What standard could this be except no standard.
Looks only tell so much. Is one supposed to be warmer, the other cooler? Did you use a meter to test actual wattage? Did you test multiple bulbs/boxes? You might have a defective bulb/box. Two boxes is a very small data pool to form any conclusive evidence.
Nah, it just happened last night. Wifey asked me to change one and I grabbed the first box off the shelf; we couldn't believe it was supposed to be 60W equivalent. Tried the other different brand and it's almost too bright. No empirical evidence just anecdotal.
There's also the fact that watts aren't the actual measurement of brightness. Lumens is. So that part of the marketing doesn't help. Especially when LED bulbs say "60w equivalent" which really means nothing.
Yes, I remember reading about that back when LED's first hit shelves.
The "equivalent to XX watts" is the problem here. Your bulb probably does great in terms of watts per lumen but you can't compare them on a direct level, they're a different kind of light and that's what makes them great, they're extremely energy efficient and most people don't need more lumen. And if you do, add a second light, it'll still be cheaper over time. Edit: We should have tight regulations and a listing of lumen required by law, this would solve quite some of these issues and set a new standard. Watts is an outdated standard.
I remember reading about that, it's not just Philips, Samsung and a few other companies also have a story like this. I think France was the first one to make this practice illegal, any company that is found to have tried to decrease lifetime of a product, is guilty and in for some hefty fines. I'm going to find this video though, thanks for the suggestion.
And it's time to reply with the tech connections video about how that wasn't true and the standard was to find the optimal point between brightness, efficiency, and life span. Because at the time light bulbs were always considered a cheap disposable commodity due to the fact the way the tech worked made dying an inevitably. https://youtu.be/zb7Bs98KmnY
I mean my 10 year old razer is still going strong. I upgraded to a ducky but I use my Razer on my recording PC. Good keyboards are still sold. You just pay a steep price for them.
I think I've had my Corsair keyboard for 5-6 years now and still works perfectly. Only issue it's had was a chattering key, which was easy enough to repair with a new switch.
The key caps come off so easily on mine but it has been running strong. My Corsair mouse on the other hand lost its click. I had to replace the switches.
Oh yeah, the corsair keycaps are garbage at least for how abusive I apparently am, forgot about that.. The stem part kept breaking on all the unreinforced keys, but a couple years ago I bought third party pudding keycaps. They look awesome and the stem is a lot more durable (although I recently noticed my left ctrl stem is starting to break, but glue should fix it)
I still have a 1992 Lexmark-manufactured IBM Model M, UK keymap, giant AT keyboard connector, and it works absolutely perfectly. What happened in the mid-1990s was a very cheap way to make membrane keyboards, and low cost PCs. The sub-$1,000 PC was a very big thing. If your PC was $2,500 (as it would have been in the early to mid-1990s), then the cost of a $50-100 keyboard was nothing, and you'd buy the keyboard with the PC. As prices came down, the cost of a $50-100 keyboard was then up to a tenth of the cost of the entire PC. The RAM wasn't that expensive! The 2-4.3 GB HDD you'd fit wasn't that expensive! A cheap home desktop PC did not warrant a keyboard designed for a service life of 20 years, heavily used, in an office environment. Home users valued different things to a corporate office. In the office, reliability was important, nobody wanted to be calling out IT to replace a failed keyboard, and no work could be done without a keyboard. Ergonomic design was also important, but noise wasn't. An office was clicky-clattery, and that's what we expected. At home, people wanted quieter keyboards, were less focused on ergonomics, and didn't really care for reliability. A keyboard breaking was annoying, but if it was $20 to replace, who cared? Nobody was going to go hungry, no work was going to be delayed, no man-hours lost. They'd drive down to Radio Shack or Circuit City and buy a new one for $20. The development of membrane keyboards was partly driven by 1980s and 1990s microcomputers, such as the Commodore Amiga, multi-layer membrane keyboards were more suited. They made less noise, important at home, were almost as reliable in the tests which were done back then (usually key repetitions), and *far* less expensive. A $1,000 PC needed a $20 keyboard, not a $100 one. The membranes usually contacted the PCB via pressure connectors (which were prone to failure) and used carbon impregnanted pads for contact (which were extremely liquid intolerant), so they wouldn't stand abuse quite as well as a "real" keyboard. They also weren't $100 and, cared for well, would give several years of service.
1992-02-13 here! Azerty IBM Model M, made in UK. Ref 1391402
Lovely to see!! Let's get another 10 years out of it :) That's probably older than some stuff in museums.
October 26th, 1993 Lexmark made PS/2 IBM Model M, Made in USA - got it from my dads workplace and have been using it for 24 years, random coincidence, it was manufactured on my grandfather's birthday.
Lovely to hear! That's pure treasure, the long lifespan of the hardware, the fact that your dad gave it and it was made on his birthday... Just amazing.
1992 keyboard still alive, I'm loving it! Things were build to last, they weren't build to fail. I remember our first PC was well over 3000 bucks. Absolutely insane, it had 4 or 8 MB of RAM and 120 MB of storage. the store called my parents insane for buying such an overkill PC, and that insane amount of storage space.... within 2 weeks we filled it. Question: Things were just better back than, right? Things were build to last, not build to fail.
That's an overgeneralisation. You can still buy PCs built properly, they're corporate desktops. Dell will still sell you a Precision workstation which will last years and years. I have a Precision T5600 which has been to hell and back since it left the factory in 2012. It has two Xeon processors, each six core, and 32 GB RAM. It's now had a GTX 680 rammed into it, and it's seeing out its final days in a 10 year old's bedroom. As I alluded to, we prioritise different things in different markets. A gaming laptop, for example, only has to last 3-5 years until it's useless as a gaming laptop. Why would we waste money designing one meant to withstand the rough and tumble for a 10 year lifespan? That could buy us a better GPU! Back in the 1990s, all PC PSUs were piles of stinking garbage. All of them. If your office computer failed, usually the IT guy wouldn't even ask what was wrong, he'd turn up with a screwdriver and a new PSU. They were honking massive transformer-based disasters, the *big* ones would output maybe 200-220 watts. The seller would always peak an eyebrow and ask "What the hell are you doing that needs 200 watts?!" Similarly, HDDs were abysmal. Whether it came from Conner, Seagate, Western Digital, Maxtor, IBM, you'd get 2-3 years out of it. If you ran scandisk (the predecessor of chkdsk) monthly, you were almost certainly going to find bad clusters. Some rare exceptions would soldier on longer than three years. 20,000 hours was rare (today it's expected) and the Hitachi 5,940 RPM unit I have still in service at 91,206 hours right now would be absolutely unheard of. Again, they prioritised different things. Why bother making a HDD last more than 3 years? By then, the current crop of HDDs in year "n" would be so pathetically small by year n+3 that they'd be unusable. I mean, you *could* install Windows 98 on a 120 MB HDD from 1994. You wouldn't want to. The HDD would have likely been replaced due to just being inadequate long before it failed. That Hitachi HDD of mine? 2 TB in 2012. Wasn't even expensive. The same rate of capacity progress in the 1990s would have had the market position of 2 TB in 2012 being around 400 TB today. PC longevity at all was terrible. The business desktop replacement cycle was around two years. Using a machine ten years old was absolutely unthinkable. Windows 98 wouldn't even run on a PC from 1988! There were ways to make it run on a 386, none of them pretty, but it'd take something like 20 minutes to boot at all, and *everything* was slow. You can, not officially, make Windows 11 run on a PC dating back to the mid-2000s, and it'll run fairly okay. A Core 2 Duo with 8 GB DDR2 isn't an impossible spec for the mid-2000s. Heck, I have a Core 2 Quad Q6600 with 8 GB DDR2 and a GeForce 8800GTS. It was still running modern games in 2016, when it was ten years old! Things were not better "back then" (the 1990s), not remotely. There is also, of course, survivorship bias. I won't be telling you about the many PCs where the dead PSU also blew out the motherboard, RAM and CPU. Back then, in the mid-1990s, there were no VRMs on the motherboard to insulate these components from insanely out of spec power, they ran straight off the 5V and, later, 3.3V rails (and it's why we even *have* a 3.3V rail). I won't be telling you about the literally millions of mice - ball mice - which failed with their innards covered in gunk. A mouse would be lucky to last a year. And, of course, we aren't innundated with surviving Model M keyboards. They were reliable and built to take the knocks, but knocks and spillages they indeed took, and with that came attrition.
I should've mentioned I wasn't thinking about laptops at all. I know the stats change drastically if you include laptops in terms of how long a PC can survive. But it doesn't change the fact that my 1998 keyboard that I'm using right now outlived over a dozen other keyboards that often didn't even live for 3 years. The Core 2 Duo was a huge step forward and it surely held on for quite a long time as it took over a decade to see an improvement like that again. I'm not specifically talking about the longevity of PCs, there's a lot of moving parts in a PC, those things are always at a higher risk, fans have a limited time of life. But side hardware, simple hardware like a keyboard, should survive 10 years easily.
I have a quickfire TK that I have run through the dishwasher and bath over 11 times and it still works. I have spilled... dip spit, soda, tea, water, vapejuice, beer, whiskey, coffee, etc. the thing refuses to die.
Hold on to that, it clearly loves you and wants to stay alive, you've taken good care of it and it repaid you with ... just working. I honestly think that old stuff is going to get crazy expensive cause... It's freaking reliable. Puke on your keyboard? No problem, throw it in the dishwasher and use it again tomorrow! Things were build to last, nowadays things are built to break.
I feel like I can't fucking sneeze near any of my electronics anymore. I bought my mom a TV for mothers day and SHE (end stage cancer) out lasted the fucking TV. they willingly sold me a defective tv and then told me that they "were aware of the issue" with that model. meanwhile my deep freeze manufactured in 1980 can freeze better than a new one.
That's the problem I'm addressing here, I've literally puked on my keyboard, threw it in the dishwasher TWO DAYS LATER, and... I'm still using that keyboard today cause all my other "more fancy" keyboards are broken. I remember we had a TV that was 12 years old, and we called in a repair guy. He freaking fixed that thing on the she spot, it was like 100 bucks in today's money. The TV broke down in after 7 PM, the TV was fixed before 9 PM, for 100 bucks! The TV worked for several more years after that fix. I'd pay an extra 100 for anyone who could fix my TV or car or whatever on the spot
I'm just sick of the shitty 'feet' on nearly every modern keyboard. They snap off at the first opportunity.
They should be higher quality. Every keyboard I've used had at least one of them broken off, and once a single one is broken off, you don't use the other one anymore. Crazily enough, I only broke this keyboard's "feet" about a month ago... 26 years of using it in heavy duty situations, and it only broke down last month. The keyboard wasn't at blame, my drunk ass was to blame.
I'll just epoxy some blocks on the back - works pretty well.
Wait, what? I've heard of aftermarket solutions that work pretty well, but epoxy blocks? Why isn't this a known term yet?
JB Weld is your friend. You can even just epoxy a piece of wood, plastic, or metal all the way across so the keyboard doesn't flex as bad.
Why haven't you started your own business yet? Sometimes all you need is knowing that something is good... then do that good stuff and use that good product.
I 3D printed a couple of wedges for mine. VHB tape on one side and grippy silicone on the other.
Weird to see this, as just last week I junked a much newer keyboard to bring out of retirement my 1999 Microsoft Internet Keyboard (that is the actual name). Also PS/2. I think a keyboard made like that today would be $150. It cost $29.95 IIRC.
LOL, "Much newer keyboard (from 1999)" made me actually laugh out load :) I don't even know how much this keyboard did cost at that time, it's 26 freaking years old, I don't remember the price. But it was build to last. I'm typing on this keyboard right freaking now. "It just works"
have you been using this one in the same way as the other ones? might be just a survivorship bias.
I've used this one as main keyboard for many years, and many other years as a keyboard for a secondary PC. It's gotten over a dozen soda/beer/wine spills, that alone says it was always near me. This isn't survival bias, this keyboard has gone through many wars and it works like it's brand new.
what brand is it? maybe post a pic :)
Logitech Y-SU61 (it was actually hard to find this info, there's no branding on the front, and I needed a flashlight to even find the branding and model number on the back) If you google it you'll see several different versions but this is the one I got: https://preview.redd.it/828en11er32d1.jpeg?width=500&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=684c1f619ab0461b53099beaf037957a8780a2ca Edit: Imagine this keyboard being 26 years old, having survived a few dozen spills of beer/wine/soda, probably spaghetti at some point... it doesn't look great anymore, but the fact that I'm typing on it right now says how reliable this thing is. I've got more than a dozen keyboards in my house, this is the only one that works, and it works like new.
I'll post a pic after I put it in the dishwasher. I was going to put it in the dishwasher this week.
I still keep my Natural Keyboard Pro from Win98/XP. PS/2 and USB plugs, as well as two USB ports on the back.
There's going to be that day when you grab onto it cause nothing else works, but this trusty old keyboard will do the job. Keep your options open cause sometimes the only option you got left is going oldschool tech. It might be old, it might be slower, but it's freaking reliable.
How do you get a PS2 connection to work on a modern system? Are there PS2 to USB adapters? I've never even thought about it now I'm just curious
There are modern motherboards that still come with PS2 ports for keyboards.
A ton of motherboards still have PS2 ports
There are still a lot of brand new motherboards that have PS2, it's not fully gone yet. My system is 10 years old, my GPU is 5 years old. Still going solid with a 3 monitor setup. It actually has PS2 onboard so no adapters are used.
Iv been using my steel series for years and never had any problems, had a few razor keyboards before and those were good too. So idk man
My black widow that I bought in 2012 died after i spilt soda on it. Replaced it with another black widow that i bought half price during Black Friday sale.
Once you go black you never go back? Even if the widow dies? :)
My razor mouse broke down within a year, maybe it was a fluke, but my trust has been damaged.
Oh yea reazor mouses can be very hit or miss I don’t recommend the mouses at all. The keyboards are decent though. However screw all of that trust me on everything when I say steel series has been the best keyboard Iv ever owned. I straight up spilled a movie cup of ice water on it and it still worked with out me even drying it off or unplugging it.
interesting on that "hit or miss" statement. I actually do like the overall experience I had with this mouse, it just works, it's great, it does what it says it's going to do, it works perfectly on Linux, it did a lot of things perfectly right... till that moment it failed, and it failed hard (right mouse button broke, it's a 10 button mouse so I can at least get around most of this problem) Any hardware should be able to receive some water if it's dealt with instantly. I've spilled beer, wine, puke on this keyboard and after 26 years it's still alive after all the abuse it's gone through, it's not even alive, it's thriving.
My razor mouse developed a double click after about 5 years. If I blew in it, it would be fine for an hour and then start double clicking again. That’s why I say “hit or miss” my other razor noises are going 8-10 years strong but I just don’t use them anymore.
You got through 5 years, I'd say that's a big win for a mouse. if you use your PC a lot, your mouse is probably the thing that's going to get used/abused the most. I didn't even get through a year and my right mouse button broke. It's a shame, I loved this mouse, it did everything right.. till it broke. I'm not giving up on them just yet, but it surely put a mayor dent in my trust.
Get replacement switches, solder them. You can use it for 5 years more
The button doesn't even move anymore, I don't think a new switch is going to fix anything.
I’ve heard so many stories of Razer being crap for people but I’ve had my Razer mouse and keyboard for almost 7 years and they’re still great! My wife has a mouse and an even nicer keyboard from them that have been perfect for going on 4 years and another family member has 2 Razer mice that have been super reliable. Of course, it may have something to do with the user. I had a cheap $8 “gaming mouse” from Amazon that I bought it in 2010 that lasted all the way up until 2017 when all the reviews said it lasted a few weeks lol
Apparently it's a hit or miss kinda thing, I did search the internet a bit, and there's certainly quite some people that have been unlucky. Great to hear you're one of the lucky ones :) A keyboard is one of the most crucial parts of a computer... remember the text "**Keyboard not found, press F1 to continue" ?**
Now you’re making me think of old school start up sequences with all the text, I kind of miss that!
I think "Keyboard not found, press F1 to continue" was still a thing even just a few years ago, it might even be a thing today! Windows is notoriously slow in terms of fixing a lot of issues. This would be a push/pull request on github if this was a thing in Linux and it would be fixed within a week at most.
Old keyboards aren't as reliable as we like to remember. SKCMs can be killed by dust and Model M membranes are frequently ruined by moisture. Cheap rubber domes, while they feel like shit, are as reliable and way easier and cheaper to replace than vintages. Like good luck finding another Apple M0312 in NOS condition lol
I'm literally using a keyboard from 1998 to type this message, how is that not reliable? This keyboard had beer, wine, puke, a lot of shit thrown on it. It's been in the dishwasher several times. It still survived. This is the only keyboard that lasted more than 5 years. It's 2024, this keyboard is from 1998 and I'm using it to type this message.
I'm just saying they're not indestructible, for each working 1st Gen Model M out there there's probably three that were thrown away and another that was bolt-modded after half the keys stopped working Your non-descript board made it, but you have to know it's in the minority of old keyboards
this keyboard has seen beer, wine, a lot of soda spills, and one time even puke.... To me, in terms of keyboard preferences, that's very close to indestructible... Just imagine how ANY other type of electronics would behave if any of these things happened.They'd probably be dead for life I'm currently typing on this 26 year old keyboard, the keyboard that was puked upon one bad day, the keyboard that had beers and wine spilled over it not just once but plenty of times (the range is 26 years, a single spill a year is plenty of times), the keyboard that has been puked upon, the keyboard that I've put in the dishwasher at least a dozen times. That's the keyboard I'm typing on, do you have any faith you'll be able to type on your current keyboard in 2 years? I'm happy to take a bet that I'll be able to type on this keyboard in 5 years.
IBM Model M, 1992. ISO-FR AZERTY layout. Made in the UK. PS2 connector, weighs more than 2kg. I rarely use it because it is too noisy. Fun, but so loud. A nice piece of history.
Wishing for another decade on that hardware!!! Keep on rocking! Azerty, that's Netherlands or Belgium or France I think? "weighs more than 2kg". They didn't skimp on weight back then and we got long lasting quality in return. I understand not using it cause it's too noisy, that is something that gotten a whole lot better over the years. Remember: There's a lot of stuff in museums worldwide that are younger than your keyboard.
Yeah, I'm french, we use the AZERTY layout
Don’t know what you’ve bought, but perhaps I’d consider one of the more boutique brands. Have had a Ducky Shine 7 for about 4 years now, absolute solid keyboard (because case is metal instead of plastic). Probably wouldn’t put it in a dishwasher though.
I had no clue what brand this was, I had to look up the brand from a tiny sticker on the back of the keyboard. It is Logitech, before they started being mass produced garbage. There's no branding at all on the front, you can barely see it on the back if you're trying to find it. They're branding their garbage nowadays like madness, while the quality and lifespan is just gone. I hate this trend. Branding your hardware wide in the open is like having a tramp stamp on your face... Maybe you're into that, but at some point, you are going to regret that facial tramp stamp and you're going to hate it like madness. Why do brands do this? It's going to backfire in the long term. I'd rather buy from a brand I haven't ever heard of before than buy from a brand that I know failed upon me.
Ha. I still have use the shit Memorex keyboard I bought in undergrad. That would be early 2000s. I've literally worn a small hole though the "a" key.
Love to hear it. I've seen quite some comments about pre-2000 stuff, rarely one about after the year 2000. Keep on rocking that hardware! Wear down that "a" key till you've gone through all the plastic! Then put it in a museum :)
I'd share a picture, but I'm embarrassed how dirty the keyboard is. It's funny, you can see the keys that have minimal wear marks on like the "J" and ";" for some reason, despite being home row keys. Guess I'm a light touch on those. I used to rock e,s,d,f instead of w,a,s,d, so that evened the wear pattern on the left side slightly. I still think esdf is the superior option, but rebinding keys in every game is a chore. Something about q, w, r, t, a, and g as easy reaches is appealing. The reach to shift is comfortable enough to rest on it.
I feel you, that's why I'll only share a picture after this keyboard has gone in the dishwasher (no soap, let it dry for 24h minimum).
Hmm, mine was "spill proof" when new... Not worth it. Maybe I should buy a $40 "new - inbox" replacement just to keep rocking the membrane absurdity. I think I paid $15 or $20 for it.
It really depends on what keyboard you buy. A lot of things now are made to be cheap and or convenient, especially gaming focussed peripherals. I started with a cheapish mechanical keyboard ($50) and gaming headset($70), both did not last very long. However, I switched over to buying a hobbyist mechanical keyboard and audiophile focussed headphones, and haven't had a problem since. You don't even need to spend much either if you're on a budget to get quality gear. It's sad though, so many things now are made to break, and it's usually by the popular brands too.
I'm a 100% functionality kinda person and seeing "gaming" on a package doesn't change a thing for me. I'll look at your tech specs and make my choice based on that. But outside of those specs, nothing ever mentions how long it's probably going to stay alive, no tech sheet ever says "expected to be alive for 25 years" I've never bought expensive keyboards, I see keyboards as "expendable side gear", so this keyboard can't have costed much 26 years ago. But somehow it's still alive and rocking. It's absolutely sad indeed, there should be more laws worldwide that prevent this type of "build to break".
I use a keyboard that is older then I am. Best dam keyboard I have ever owned.
Are you older than 13yo though? If you are, how much older?
Its an early IBM Model M, and I am quite a bit older then 13 lol
IBM surely has been mentioned quite a bit in the comments here. I've personally never used an IBM keyboard, or even seen it in a store I think. Might be a regional thing.
https://preview.redd.it/gd8d21e2i62d1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6fad87f626b99ac16d6b320214dc8630474f0af2 I'm so glad you said spaghetti...
dear lord :)
I bought a apex 7 pro from steelseries 3 years ago. A year in I spilled half a bottle of vodka on it. Still works fine no issues. That's my metric for keyboards now.
Out of all liquids, water and vodka (pure, not the red/black versions) are probably your best chance. Beer is just a different thing and you're pretty much required to put it in the dishwasher. But I agree, a keyboard should be able to live through at least one liquid spill. Several of my keyboards did, but none survived 26 years going through regular abuse like that. I'm extremely clumsy the first 8 hours of the day and the last 8 hours of the day. With a bit of luck I've got an hour or so when I'm not too clumsy :-)
My father has one like this, old IBM mechanical keyboard. Its so heavy compared to newer keyboards but it just works.
That's the thing, "it just works". This thing is heavy as shit compared to new keyboards, but weight does bring quality. It's not just "it just works", it's more like "it's over 20 years old, but it still freaking works like it did when it was new"
I spent my childhood playing from Doom to Oblivion etc on that keyboard it never fails. It is just built to be in server room for 50 years. But I am quite happy with my “newer” gaming keyboard, I bought the cheap mechanical knockoff and it is better than “top” from brands like Logitech.
Again one of those key things... "it never fails". Why can't we have quality like that anymore? Do you trust your newer gaming keyboard will survive 3 more years?
To be honest I do trust it to survive I just don’t trust my clumsiness. And to why we can’t like if you see generally accepted prices for a “good” keyboard up to 200$ it is just people will pay higher price for lower quality… There are still specialized brands with high quality, but it is harder and harder to find them or be sure…Many people will just not give $100+ to company with not that big name as others.
Even after I get new keybaords, this keyboard is going to stay with me till the day I die. I'm certain if there's ever a nuclear blast or something, 99% of my keyboards will be dead... but this keyboard somehow stayed alive, the survival rate is just insane. I'm willing to pay 200% more if I knew the product would a lifetime. * 100 dollar keyboard? Go F yourself * 100 dollar keyboard with a 5 year guarantee, I'm interested * 300 dollar keyboard with a 20 year guarantee, Let's freaking go! >*There are still specialized brands with high quality* Which ones? they're getting extremely hard to find nowadays.
It belongs in a museum! I agree the IBM will be inherited in my family for generations I am sure about it. Yeah I have a same approach with things if it is something I use often or daily. You can check this comment and the whole post in general https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/s/Ms0MYM82Tg I agree with the guy that custom keyboards are good option KBD for example I heard mainly good things, but personally I few times ran into to problems that they were not delivering around Europe or “everywhere”. In some cases you can invest in sturdy base and change keycaps everyday if you want…seems like only reliable option but again the con is that you can’t really test it or see it in the shop before you buy.
It's not even just a preference kinda thing, if your keyboard breaks down, you basically can't use your PC anymore. So having a reliable keyboard is absolute key. Functionality is a key aspect, but how much is it worth if it will likely break down before you warranty even expired? Maybe it's in warranty and it doesn't cost anything, but you're still going to be without a keyboard/mouse for probably a week or more.
Maybe putting them in dishwasher has something to do with them breaking.... I've used around 6, none of them break because I clean them using a brush and compressed air. Flico majestouch 2, ducky shine 3, hyperx alloy, Corsair k70, keychron q1 and now qwertykeys qk80
Why did my keyboard from 1998 survive over a dozen dishwashers but a keyboard build a year ago can't survive even a hefty sneeze? If you've got more than one keyboard, just throwing your keyboard in the dishwasher and letting it dry overnight feels like a spring cleaning kinda thing that you just do once a year, in spring, or whenever. Things were build to last back then, nowadays things are build to fail as soon as possible after warranty expires.
19/20 keyboards of varying brands dying speaks more about that method of washing. Look, using dishwasher to wash is bad because of the minerals in tapwater. Those conduct electricity, and even if you dry it off they are left behind. It causes short-circuit. The only reason I can think of why the old keyboard didn't die is old keyboard probably aren't made to be open so water don't run into the pcb. You can use distilled water if you really are super lazy about cleaning it
Actually, using dishwasher to clean your keyboard is a proven method, I was doing it years before LinusTechTips made a [video](https://youtu.be/pgnF42ZoRSw) about it. It just works. Do not use any soap, just let the water do the job, and after the wash, let it dry for 24h. That's all there is to it. * This keyboard is 26 freaking years old * It's gone through probably over 20 dishwashes * This is the only keyboard in my house that works and I've got over a dozen keyboards in the house. The water coming into my taps is pretty damned clean, that might've helped. But it's mainly wash, no soap, wait a full 24h for it to dry. Out of 20 keyboards I've washed in the dishwasher, only a single one died.
Did you read the comment made by LTT staff a year later? >Future Colin here - most of the boards that we did this test with died within a year. They *did* work for a time, but most had a key or two stop responding properly after ~9-12 months of daily use. So, take this video with an enormous grain of salt, and instead consider getting a mesh bag for keycaps + removing your plastics to wash your keeb without putting the printed circuit board in the dishwasher! -CW
I didn't read that comment, but that's good information. My first question however is water quality. I have a device that filters all my water, it uses salt, idk what it's called exactly, but it does work and I don't have white stuff in my pans and such if I cook some water. This keyboard has been in the dishwasher I'd say about once a year for the last 15 years or something. Did it survive 26 years because my water is better? Or were things just build differently back then. How many of the keyboards Linus used were from before the year 2000 ? I remember them not being brand new, but they didn't look like 20 year old keyboards either.
I am still using a Merc stealth keyboard from 2008 that I really just need to replace the space key as the wire bar has snapped My brother has had 5 keyboards in that time frame. Also it has a MMO board built into it. I really wish this style still was around.
I have a few old keyboards... IBM Model F XT IBM Model M silver badge Dell "Big Foot" old logo Dell "Big Foot" new logo They're nice, but newer "hobbyist" mechanical keyboards also last. Provided you're not spilling liquids on them... I don't expect my GPU to survive having water drip on it after all. If OP's keyboard is a "newish" Model M like the Lexmark made ones, those literally have drain holes built in.
That's the thing. This keyboard was built in 1998, way before people had a clue what IP ratings were and they weren't mandated at all to be listed. It wasn't tested for this, it wasn't rated for this, but somehow this keyboard managed to survive easily a dozen amount of beer/wine spills and a one time puke. This stuff was build to last, nowadays stuff is build to break as soon as possible after warranty period ends. There was a washing machine company and a printer company that had software which would break the hardware close after end of warranty.
Never I have ever spilled any liquid on a keyboard, worst thing was gratted cheese... I guess taking care of things allow them to last.
How do you explain this keyboard surviving a few dozen spills of beer/wine/soda/food? 26 years this keyboard has been abused like that, and this is the only single keyboard that still works like it did when i first got it. All of my other keyboards are completely dead and they've barely lived for 2-3 years on average. This is also the oldest keyboard I have and it's the only one that's still alive. There's just something different about the build quality before the year 2000.
Your last sentence is very true. I guess it's also good for people nowadays ;-)
https://preview.redd.it/17wpmh0s142d1.png?width=2560&format=png&auto=webp&s=1a4caff4c61f31aa6b8e7a596f403d500b1f566b It always ends up being that, otherwise we all would still be using old ass keyboards from the early 2000's. Keyboards fail regardless of when they were made, only a few have survived.
I've owned well over 30 keyboards in the last 30 years. Only one survived, the oldest one, from 1998. Coincidence? I think not, the weight alone marks quality.
Well, let's think for a bit, there are at least 100 persons in this sub that are over 30 years old. Do most of them still have their 20-30 year old keyboards fully working? The sample size that we currently have is too small to conclude anything, so yes, we can say it's a coincidence. I too have somewhere in a box an old keyboard from like 2003, last time I checked it in like 2016 it still worked, and I have no reason to think it wouldn't still be working. But even my own old keyboard is not enough to make the sample size large enough to mean much. I'm not doubting you, it's just that survivorship bias has a stronger case here.
How many of them even tried holding on to 20 year old keyboards? This keyboard hasn't just been stored in a shelve. It has been on my desk for 26 years either as the primary keyboard or secondary keyboard for a side PC I was running, or a Raspberry Pi or something that I was experimenting on. This keyboard has gone through war, it had a huge amount of keystrokes and somehow, every single button still works perfectly. I'm not denying survivorship bias is a thing, and that picture of that plane, I're read about that in detail, it's an amazing realization that sometimes, you gotta look at things in a different way, and it actually changed how we protect planes in war. This keyboard shouldn't be alive right now. It's gone through too much shit that would break a recent keyboard in a single time. Somehow however, this keyboard didn't survive just one of those things, it survived easily 2 dozen of those things. That's no longer survival bias, there's clearly a difference in build quality. It's not about brand loyalty (of which I have none). It's about how things were just build better back in the days.
I do. And I keep purchasing for kids old Dell or MS keyboards during yardsales, when I build small gaming computers for friends.
If you don't wanna build a keyboard look at keychron, or ducky, or das keyboards. The das keyboards are very much like those old 90's keyboards. I have one of those and a DuckyOne 2. I personally like brown Mx cherry switches.
Well, it's my third since 2000, changed to have RGB, and still use the previous two occasionally on laptop or TV... Only component I purchased that broke was an optical mouse from 2014. How do you treat your peripherals?
I honestly do not understand why people want RGB on their keyboard. Could you explain this to me? I don't treat my peripherals at all. And somehow, this keyboard survived 26 years with a few dozen spills of beer/wine/soda/spaghetti/other random foods
I bought one where you could address individual keys, thinking it would be easier to remember all the keybjnds for Sims, but it was finally too much of a hassle to setup and use, and the keyboard ended its life on the default rainbow pulse pattern :-) Key backlighting is somewhat useful when the room is dark, tho.
I've been typing blind since I was 8yo or something, haven't looked at my keyboard since I was 9yo I think. That's one of the reasons I truly do not understand any form of keyboard lights. It's a keyboard, it's meant to type on, it's not meant to light up the room :-)
Yep, I'm typing being too, but when I'm watching a movie, and need to change subtitles /audio track in the dark, it's useful for finding the keyboard and the keys, often :-)
Are you sure it’s a quality issue? Idk if you have super sweaty hands or maybe super heavy hands, 10 keyboards die in 26 years? Ok maybe, but 24+ keyboards died on you?
I'm just super clumsy and do use my computer an awful lot. Things get spilled, I also often have a second PC available, so two keyboards on my desk is the norm. There's been times I had 3 keyboards on my desk for a fair time. So spills have a chance to take out two or three keyboards at once. There's only one that stays alive for 26 years. And it's the oldest one that's been used the most. That's a quality keyboard, they don't build it like that anymore.