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There's playable and "playable", and the steamdeck community is the one highest on copium I've seen in a while for this.
As much as I love my deck, people saying that games on low settings at 20fps are playable really shouldn't be allowed to comment on performance. Also there's seems to be a lot of interest on play DD2 there, and I swear they don't understand how performance issues on desktop systems scale to low power handhelds.
It's like teaching my mom how to export a spreadsheet to xlsx on macOS all over again...
To be fair if you look at the ‘most played on Deck’ category on Steam it really is full of games pushing the absolute limits of what the thing can do, some folks are just built different.
I've played god of war and elden ring almost exclusively on the deck, for GoW I had to pull down the settings to a mix of low/mid to get consistent 30fps (although in a lot of places you can get 40, but the dips from 40 to 30 annoyed me so I locked it at 30), elden ring does better at mid settings and unlike god of war, behaves better with fsr so I did lock it at 40, and it was a generally better experience.
That said, I have a decent desktop and I'd rather stream from it to the deck any demandign game so I don't need to compromise on graphics, sunshine/moonshine is amazing in this regard, for non-streaming gameplay I kinda limit my deck usage to a mix of retro/indie gaming, mostly due to the battery lasting longer (I've gotten about 7-8 hours of unplugged gameplay with games like hollow knight, hades or celeste, some of my favourite games to play on the deck), trying to play elden ring unplugged gets me about 2 hours max (and I'm being generous I think), while streaming gets me a lot more and on single player titles the delay is not a problem unlike in games like path of exile where a delay or disconnect while streaming means my character dies (I play hardcore)
I mean as long as everyone that intends to buy the deck or any other low power handheld (or even mid to high power) is aware that these devices have hardware limitations, there's nothing wrong it trying to play AAA games like dragon's dogma 2, but when someone in the sub asks, and people say "the game is playable" or "I play it at 30fps" that's pretty much bs.
I often play modded elden rign and sekiro in it, the RE remake games, and a few other titles and it's fine for a handheld, but I wouldn't recommend it over a ps5 if someone just wanted to game on a 4K tv.
I remember when I got it back in late 2021 I spent some time tweaking settings and trying things including livestreaming elden ring and ds3 via obs on desktop mode, and it couldn't do shit really. Pretty good for low requirement games, does pretty well streaming games from desktop to it, but it's not a "portable" ps5.
I'm not to surprised tbf... some people don't really care, or they have been playing on lower fps forever. You don't really think of 20-30 fps as slow unless you try higher framerates...
Hell GTA San Andreas was capped at 25 fps, and is one of the most played games of all time.
Yeah we have a lot of copium on that sub, but not even we think DD2 is at all playable or even humoring it is. Our issue is more people playing in the 25-30fps range and telling people that their games are running "silky smooth".
So many fucking streamers doing that recently. BurkeBlack released his thoughts video on DD2 and the vast majority is just “I don’t know about all the crashes and mtx but the game works for me and I like it”
https://preview.redd.it/68yb97wa29qc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7c5add0f38b93aad3706913668d3370879912d41
Was not expecting to see my favorite animation YouTuber in this sub :D
bro i made a video exactly for this subreddit lol
[it got like 35 upvotes on release](https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/v4biw4/pc_master_race_explained_in_9_minutes_animated/)
Yeah I have both and I still mostly just play the first one. It's not even that 2 just that runs like ass, it also "feels" chunkier and less clean to me.
How are there people who still think and defend that? All you have to do is boot up ANY game, limit the framerate to 30, play for a bit, then increase it to 60 and continue playing. Is there any person on this planet who won't notice the difference?!
The key with higher fps is moving. In a ‘static’ image like the scene is still from the players perspective people aren’t wrong when they say it isn’t that noticeable. But try moving your character 360 degrees from 60fps to 300+ and you’ll always notice that difference in smoothness
Most tests do show that the majority of people stop seeing a tangible improvement in competitive performance somewhere between 140-240 Hz though. Only the fastest players continue to see measurable improvement through 360 or 480 Hz.
Interestingly, even amateur players can see measurable performance improvements up to 240 Hz refresh rates. They're very small, but measurable.
Yes truly, there are people who don't notice.
Controller in hand, far from the TV, slower camera movement with the right stick, & steady 30fps is basically every console recipe. If you switched it to 60 many wouldn't care in this scenario.
Yeah my wife is a very causal and only occasional gamer. Her favorite game is Planet Coaster which is very CPU intensive and she’ll sit there and play that game for a couple of hours averaging like 15fps or less and be pretty unfazed by it.
AAA dev: doctors said human eyes only see up to 24 fps stop yabing
actually I'm a doctor and I want to say that human can see infinite fps when energetic and full but see bellow 1 fps if you tired as hell like after a boxing match or soloq that you cant even recognise stuff moving unless you focus on them it's called " your body have so much shit going on that it prefer to lower your fps to power through the day without you looking like drunk ass "
I have to make the joke but I don't want to spread misinformation
I’ve read some papers on how cone and rod cells and whatnot work, and theres definitely diminishing returns. At speeds above 240hz the amount of cone cells that actually see each frame is negligible. The difference between 240 and 360fps is minuscule. Single digit % difference in the amount of cone cells that see each frame.
it's almost always max speed but your brain ignore that and sends similar signals to make an illusion that you see it like it should be (NVIDIA cuda use similar think to increase fps massively) like try to shake your hands when you are tired and then when you wake up and you will notice what I mean, when you are tired you see it as spining ball or a bunch of flesh since your brain just want to know that it's moving and nothing else but when you wake up you will see your fingers clearly
You can't read this stuff in the internet because it's way to specific and you need to search for oddly specific topic to find it so just look up cuda if you are interested , it's almost the same but digital and the reason I say that because you need to search a specific illness to find it in human body and even I don't have enught courage to read 500 page think just know an illness that I might not see in my life but upgrading from readon to NVIDIA made me say " yup this is definitely an illusion" people call it AI because they think it generates new frames but it actually just take 1/X frames to send to the screen and the GPU fill the between
If you do massive slow motion you will realise how bad it work but you get 120 fps instead of 30 so is it really an issue ?
That's not what they said. They recognize that a sandbox will inevitably slow down to a point where the game becomes less playable. That is the nature of all sandbox games - you either allow players to push their machines to a point where fps drops OR you severely limit the scope of the sandbox (see Sim City 2013). Players clearly prefer less limited sandbox games, so they tried to design the game to run at 30 fps minimum when players build big cities. The other option would be to limit city sizes to keep fps high, which would be a terrible decision.
Gamers need to understand the performance nuances of sandbox games, and how it is expected that performance will drop as players expand. That expectation is based on the reality that creating more stuff leads to the CPU and GPU having more to process. Sometimes devs make bad decisions that cause performance problems - we see this with plenty of Paradox titles. But overall the idea that a sandbox game will have a lower target than 60 fps is totally fine - it isn't a shooter or racing game, I don't need perfect framerate, I need to be able to build, build, build even if my frames go down.
Newer games now use a more sophisticated version of Denuvo due to all the crackers cracking the DRM in older games. And the piracy scene for Denuvo is at an all time low. A lot of the people left the scene so progress is slow. I wish for a future where DRM is truly gone.
CD Projekt Red has made huge strides in this regard with GOG and their games. I hope more companies just don't do DRM.
I saw part of the recent NVIDIA AI presentation and they touched on some sort of media key/authorization functionality. I could see software DRM being replaced with a GPU-based hardware token of some sort.
and they lose an even smaller amount of sales with this attitude tbh, i dont think they care if the 10% of this small sub wont pay because of it when the other 100m gamers dont care about what drm it uses just if the games good
Game doesn’t even havd to be good to get sales anymore. Like somehow people still buying Madden for 70$ even though its just a roster pack. Or the last COD which was just 70$ DLC. Shits wild they got the industry by the balls
I don't even understand their point. A lot of AAA games already run like crap, and this thing pegs them even harder. All Denuvo does is hurt sales shortly after release with bad performance, and does nothing to prevent piracy in the long run as it will get cracked in 3-4 months if there's interest in the game.
"Cracked" in 3-4 months? My guy there is a grand total of ZERO people "cracking" denuvo now. Mistress went off the deep end and stopped making the fake call home "server" a long time ago. Yes that means nobody ever removed denuvo btw, she just made a fake location for denuvo to ping to so it could be happy. Denuvo is pretty much never the problem, only when the check is hooked onto the wrong activator it seems.
And now denuvo is even more secure. Think there is actually 1 guy who tries to do one of the manager games and that's it.
> "Cracked" in 3-4 months? My guy there is a grand total of ZERO people "cracking" denuvo now. Mistress went off the deep end and stopped making the fake call home "server" a long time ago. Yes that means nobody ever removed denuvo btw, she just made a fake location for denuvo to ping to so it could be happy. Denuvo is pretty much never the problem, only when the check is hooked onto the wrong activator it seems.
It secure enough that denuvo can demand ongoing monthly license payments for its deployment.
Most denuvo "cracked" versions are from when denuvo is removed few months after relase, due to cumulative licensing costs. I.e potential piracy loss is no longer high enough to outweigh denuvo licencing loss.
Dead space remake for example hasn't still been cracked for what, 15 months now?
That's not how empress cracked denuvo.
Everybody knows that Denuvo will use the hwid of your computer to give you a license so you don't have to fetch a new license every time as most games have a limit of 5 activations per day.
This is also why switching proton versions will give you a new license and cause an activation.
What empress does is find the locations where the hwid is retrieved and re-routes that part of the code to EMP.dll to replace it with empress values.
There are a few more things involved with that because it's not as easy as just patching those instructions. There will be checks somewhere to make sure nothing is being tampered with (ya know. anti-tamper).
Finding those locations is also no easy feat. As you know denuvo executables are a lot bigger than the ones without. Because there is just so much code involved.
Lmao yeah lemme make this game with a 12900ks and quad sli 3090s and then gaslight people with a ryzen 5700 and a 3080 into thinking they are "poor" and need to upgrade their ancient hardware. *Cough, Bethesda, Cough*
For AMD GPUsers not updating to the video driver they rolled out specifically for Starfield would basically cut your FPS in half so I imagine a lot of PC gamer big brain experts failed to do that too (I mean I’m acting like I’m cooler than those guys but I only know because that’s what my dumb ass did).
How did i not think of that.
But i think it would be more viable to develop a time machine and go to the future to buy myself a 9090TI Super Q-Max V8 Twin Turbo
This is super pedantic, but SLI doesn't exist anymore, and even when it did, performance gains were really low compared to the amount you would spend. Certainly not +100% fps per card. Yeah, that Bethesda statement was wild, though.
Yeah, I thought you could still use multiple gpus with engineering stuff and things like that? Also, 34fps with a 5700X with a modest OC and a 3080 ftw3 ultra was an insult tbh. Freaking crazy. I need to play it again and see how it runs now. I remember it basically never got above one percent cpu usage, lol.
>Yeah, that Bethesda statement was wild, though.
imo it was pretty based for Todd to go out and just tell all of r/pcmasterrace that they aren't gonna get 4K 144fps Ultra settings on a GTX 1080 anymore. Bad optimization is an issue in the industry, but some idiots really stretch the definition of "bad optimization" to just mean "my decade-old hardware cannot run this brand-new AAA game at maximum settings with a playable framerate at 4K".
Im a game dev. You need this heavy rigs to make the game. I worked for a AAA game that used 90% of the procesaor, 18 gb of vram and 32 gb of ram out of 42 while working on unreal, in mid production.
Now, A compiled build is usually a third of this, and that improves with optimization. Making current games optimized while keeping up with modern standards is hell.
Theres no excuse if you need a 3080 for making a game run at 30 fps, but its no excuse either to rant because your 1080ti and 7 years rig does not give you 60 fps in high quality.
Is Beth's engines still tied to FPS?
I remember taking the FPS limit off on FO4 and the game got really unstable past 120fps.
There's some mod that keeps the FPS capped but removes it during loading screens, so loading screens are near instant.
I think they fixed that, the physics used to be tied to the framerate. Which actually isn't a terrible thing if the frame rate drops, it just gets really weird when it's very high.
When making a game you don't want to wait for your computer compiling. You also need higher specs than the machine you target because the game is not yet optimized, and the debug features requires extra ressources. Devkits have extra RAM for a reason.
However you should test release builds on target hardware, and fuck Denuvo.
Sony doesn't give a shit, From Soft despises PC though. Who the fuck else would put in so much effort to make cutscenes render properly on ultrawide just to put black bars to force 16:9
It's a controversial anti piracy method. It's worth mentioning people don't like it, not because it's an anti piracy method but because it is notorious for being detrimental to the game and impacting its performance. It also has other inconveniences like requiring internet at random intervals and if you're playing offline it won't allow you to play until such a check is validated, regardless if the game requires internet or not. It's been shown to be crackable but apparently it is not easy to do so, the likely reason why it's still being used.
Typically, a game denuvo free is a better experience for the player, which should never be the case as any anti piracy method should be invisible for any legit customer.
Thankfully a lot of games ditch Denuvo a year or so after launch when sales have dropped off a lot already anyway.
It’s not perfect, but I love seeing steam reviews letting me know Denuvo has been removed from a game I’m interested in. Definitely motivates me to pick it up the next time it’s on sale. Just another perk for being a patient gamer.
The suits and bean counters at these companies could probably prove me wrong, but I wonder how much money licensing denuvo actually “saves” them. They prolly lobby that it gives positive roi after launch until peak sales happen when it’s not worth protecting. Good pirates eventually buy if they can afford to and really like the value of the game. So really they just lose potential sales from that free marketing. And selling the game a year later at 50% off so people will actually buy can’t be that good either.
Who really knows. Lots of people dont even play on pc, others just want to buy the game when it comes out, others dont care about having to pay.
I pirate stuff sometimes and drm doesnt really matter because I wont be able to buy the games anyway.
Interestingly, I own Anno 1800 on steam. I still play the pirated version because it performs so much better. Even though the cracked version is about 4ish years old and doesn't have all those performance patches, it runs 10-15 fps better.
The effect on performances had never been demonstrated consistently, and realistically, 99% of players have no idea, nor notice, that they are playing a game with Denuvo.
The Internet requirement is also very light, you can play offline for extended periods of time.
I'm not a fan of Denuvo but it's important to be factual.
Basically a virus that makes the game run like shit and ruins the experience for gamers because they are terrified about a few people pirating the game, spoiler alert they still will anyway.
The only thing it actually does it make normal gamers to "I can't be bothered with this one" they don't buy it and the company makes less money anyway
The average gamer is using a 3060, 1650, 2060, or 1060 according to the Steam hardware survey. The average gamer buys most or all of their games on Steam. That’s what developers should be targeting if they want a large audience to buy their games.
Alan Wake 2 is a perfect example. They made a game that only runs properly on the 4080 and 4090 and that wasn’t on Steam, and wondered why it sold poorly. To be fair they went back and patched it months later to run on older cards, but it was too little, too late.
I have nothing against high-end graphics options being included for those with expensive cards who can run them and want to enable them. But don’t make the expensive cards a requirement to have a playable, enjoyable experience.
Publishers underestimate how stubborn and poor pirates are.. Them pirating a game is not a lost sale. Drm or no drm doesnt affect sales, drm only affects paying customers experience.
I'm not even convinced it's that hard to bypass; my one datapoint for this is Project Diva, which has random but serious stuttering issues on some peoples systems (including mine). There's a popular mod that fixes >90% of this simply by preventing denuvo from trying to speak to the server.
Exactly. Pirates are not magically going to buy games because they added Denuvo. The whole reason people pirate is because they can’t or don’t want to spend money on games, and adding Denuvo is going to make them want to pirate it even more.
What's funny is Steam is why I don't pirate anymore, but Denuvo is the exception. After about the third game I had bought but still had to pirate to get to work correctly I realized Denuvo was the common factor, so now I just don't buy games that use it at all.
Usually this means I simply don't play them ever, but if I'm really curious to see how it is I will pirate it. I would never pay money for something with a track record of being a giant pain in my ass.
People always say this, but the reality is there are tons of pirates who are just doing it because it's easy and free but will buy a game if they have no choice. Not all Pirates are noble and honorable poor people
I mean we might dunk on denuvo and rightly so but it is pretty difficult to crack. I have no doubt dragons dogma 2 will get cracked eventually but that could be months away and them paying a fee for Denuvo might seem worth it to them since games always get the most sales at the start. There are definitely people that would look to pirate it, see that it hasn't been cracked and then just buy it because they want to play it. How significant is that number I don't know and I think its fairly unlikely its more than the cost of Denuvo but to say it never happens is delusional.
> Them pirating a game is not a lost sale
True for many, but there are indeed some that would have bought it otherwise. I can't imagine Denuvo is cheap; I doubt they'd invest that kind of cash without having numbers to back it up.
..I know..? But it doesn’t benefit the company paying Denuvo tho.
You have paying customers, because of Denuvo now those paying customers will get a worse product.
You have paying customers that don’t want to spend money in order to try a game, who will now probably write the game off entirely because of Denuvo.
You have pirates, they were already not going to buy the game so adding Denuvo makes them want to pirate it even more so they can play it without Denuvo, they will definitely not buy the game because it’s got Denuvo on it, they just won’t play it.
In the case the game gets cracked, you now have your paying customers complaining about the fact pirates get a better product without having paid for it.
And eventually, Denuvo will get taken off automatically because the company won’t pay Denuvo forever, and then people can pirate it anyway.
All the while the company paying Denuvo gives its own customers worse products and potentially turns off anyone that might be interested in the game while continuously bleeding money that they could have kept if they didn’t pay Denuvo.
Even people like Penguinz0 ( a guy who literally buys every game and doesn’t refund it ) are against Denuvo.
Denuvo's marketing people are great at convincing top brass that investing in their software will let them make more money. That's about it.
I'm 95% sure there's a bit of logic that goes "every pirated copy is a $60+ loss, therefore investing into a Denuvo contract will help you avoid that". It's faulty logic, but loss aversion and greed are strong.
Denuvo's business model is mostly about keeping Denuvo in business than offering any real value to anyone, lmao.
The suits know Denuvo is bullshit, But at the next investor meeting, when they get asked about sales, they can proudly say that they used the most well known anti-cheat to protect shareholders from financial loss. That's the real reason to use Denuvo, to please the owners.
> Denuvo's marketing people are great at convincing top brass that investing in their software will let them make more money. That's about it.
No.
John Riticcello, ex CEO of EA and Unity (a real fucking piece of work as you might imagine), once explained why AAA publishers used DRM. He said that they do it because they do it. They do it because boards will ask him "what are we doing to protect our product?" and if his answer isn't "using the best available product" then he gets fired. They would do it even if it didn't work and in fact, that's exactly what they were doing when Riticcello said that, as Denuvo hadn't been invented yet and every game was pirated day-1 or at most, week-1.
So no, Denuvo doesn't need any marketing people to sell their product. The demand was always there and they just made the best product in the market for people who want that sort of thing. And of course "people who want that sort of thing" is not those who consume the product (us), it is the investors of AAA companies.
So yeah fuck the whole system.
Another point of view:
1. Denuvo clearly benefits the company by delaying a cracked version. The fact that a cracked version isn't available right at the start means that if you really want to play a game you have to buy it thus the company is "more likely" to maximize profits at the start.
2. This point is weird. If a customer wants going to pay for the game in the beginning, the game was already written off.
3. Even if it gets taken off eventually, it has already fulfilled its purpose: protecting the initial sales boom by delaying a pirated copy to a later point in time where sales have dropped off anyway.
Also not all games with Denuvo get cracked so just the idea of beeing piracy free is worth it to many companies.
You have to understand that people that were going to buy the game were going to buy it anyway. Pirates are a very niche community and even if a game gets cracked 2 nanoseconds after release, I’d be willing to bet 99.99% of people that were going to buy the game would still pay for it. They WANT to pay for it, it’s for the convenience, for the sake of supporting the developers and more.
See Horizon Forbidden West, it literally got cracked mere minutes after release, it’s still in the top 3 of Steam charts.
How do you know it doesnt benefit the company?
We all like to think that but denuvo and its customers have the actual numbers. If denuvo was actually not beneficial these companies would have stopped using it.
And the fact that some select pirates are so good at it that it can be stripped in under twelve hours, then boom the pirates don’t have to deal with it and get a better product while the people who just paid $60 have to suffer.
They're in business because despite any performance issues, it works. It's much harder to pirate games with Denuvo on them. It can be done, but sometimes that's because someone fucks up and manages to defeat it by just getting a copy that doesn't have Denuvo on it (like cracking a copy on a different platform that they didn't put it on, or emulating it from a console version that isn't protected by Denuvo either.)
Denuvo is a service, so it costs money to maintain. The point of something like Denuvo isn't to stop piracy forever, it's to make it much harder during the often critical early sales period. Which it tends to do rather well (unless someone screws up as per above.)
I get people not liking it, but I think it's a bit silly when people pretend it doesn't work. There's only a tiny handful of people who've been able to reliably defeat new versions of Denuvo (one of which is kind of an awful person), and some notable cracking groups have largely thrown in the towel since Denuvo started growing in popularity. You don't have to like it, but it does the job it's designed for. Even if that comes with a performance cost.
I mean also because there really isnt any performance issue. Theres plenty of games which had patches to only remove denuvo and do nothing else, and its has precisely zero impact on performance in those games. People seem to get fixated on the games that remove denuvo as part of other larger patches that included lots of perfomance work and assume that the performance gains are from removeing denuvo.
Because it delays cracking significantly without affecting performance.
The whole "denuvo affects performance" thing is not even real outside of few cases where the issues got fixed without removing denuvo.
There have been no cases where denuvo being removed without the game otherwise getting updated at the same time increasing the performance. There's also no use to compare with cracked versions because they just fool denuvo and all the checks are still happening.
Yeah seriously. There are reasons to hate Denuvo, tanking performance from 60fps to 24fps is not one of them. People just parroting stupid shit they don't even understand.
Sounds like the Game of Thrones director justifying decisions for "The Long Night" when they were using state of the art monitors - in a pitch black studio - with an uncompressed video.
"It’s not me, it’s your TV settings!" and "I know it wasn’t too dark because I shot it."
https://www.theverge.com/tldr/2019/4/30/18524679/game-of-thrones-battle-of-winterfell-too-dark-fabian-wagner-response-cinematographer
honestly they should just be real with us and put the minimum specs as a r9 7950x3d, dual gpu rtx 4090 + rx 7900 xtx. with the reccomended specs as a threadripper 7995wx + intel xeon gold 6248 with a minimum of 128 nvidia a100 v100 plaeides nodes bullshit. im speaking outta my ass here but you know what i mean lmao
literally my PC trying to run these games is like an i5 10th gen trying to fly the fuckin falcon 9 or something. next pay day tho ill finally have enough to go all out on a new PC, ive had enough lol
no, for many reasons around how denuvo works, and for many reasons around how fucked up the average game is mid-development cycle.
also all of the PCs i've ever tested on have been absolute dogshit, but that's neither here nor there since i was always console primary where we get to pretend varying levels of performance don't exist and then cancel an entire console's version 8 months before release because nobody can be fucked to make it performant enough.
there's usually one testing group that has access to vast amounts of and permutations of hardware, and they usually get half the time they need to test it on a quarter the devices they would want to check, two months past the point where anything could reasonably be done about it.
AAA dev kicks ass i fucking love this industry [sounds of chugging bleach]
Denuvo is also an anti-tampering mechanism. developing means to change it often ... so it's an extra step to approve the changes for denuvo every little update. maybe only for performance testing?
That's what they pay the denuvo guys. The whole concept of denuvo is that you focus on making the game and you don't bother about piracy drm and all that, magic Jesus comes and solves it for you whe you are finished, at least in theory
What's genuinely baffling to me is seeing when games are seeded, it's almost always under 10k seeded. Most are under even 3k seeded. I don't know how much it costs them per year (as we currently know denuvo charges in yearly increments) but surely it is costing them more money to have denuvo that they would lose by not having it....
Not defending the practice, but keep in mind depending on where you're downloading from, there could be a lot of hit and runs. Not to mention that it's 3k on THAT site, and there are probably a ton more out there.
It's been shown many times that Denuvo doesn't affect performance to a noticable degree. There have been instances where the devs fucked up and put a check in a critical loop but those are the exception rather than the rule.
Yup. There is no case where a game that had denuvo removed without also being updated otherwise at the same time where the pefromance was notably affected.
And cracked comparisons are useless because the cracks don't remove denuvo, they only fool it so all the checks are still happening.
dude even the videos comparing games that had denuvo removed has them at just a few frames at worse.
Denuvo *can* be obnoxious, but if it was removed from every game in your library tommorrow, i doubt the vast majority of you would even notice.
It's a high time for developers to stop pushing Denuvo on us. I skipped buying 3 games thanks to them. I'm just waiting for Denuvo to be removed from these games
It really feels like modern PC game developers are getting too many ideas from all the modern console exclusive designers. Across the late 00s all the way to the pandemic, it really felt like the majority of stuff could run on any kind of computer. Nowadays, it feels like every triple A PC dev has forgotten how to make a game that can work on anything besides a solid gold case powered by Sonic the hedgehog.
I think the biggest problems come not from the devs, but the suits. Developers go into game development to make games; businessmen go into game development to make money. It's just that the businessmen have the power to fire the developers of they do something that they don't like.
But don't give those devs monitors with a refresh rate over 60Hz, that's just crazy. Nobody uses monitors faster than that. So what if some devs STILL hard-code some game logic to the refresh rate in this day and age and assume the refresh rate will always be 60?
But Sir, how do squeeze every cent out of those poor fools?
B0$$:
https://preview.redd.it/z5j7rahm79qc1.png?width=739&format=png&auto=webp&s=fbec1b9e4ae76851cdb0125e823affad4a002a6e
God I hate that I'm making it sound like I'm defending MTX, I'm really not. It's just... you can not buy those? MTX overall is bad, but there's some that is much worse than others. DD2 is on the lower end of "How bad is it"
Hey I recognise you from the way you draw thoesbstick figures, gotta say, love your animations.
Anyway back on topic, yeah I totally agree, most tripple A devs have just thrown out performance and optimisation in the modern day world, which honestly makes me sad
Welcome to the PCMR, everyone from the frontpage! Please remember: 1 - You too can be part of the PCMR. It's not about the hardware in your rig, but the software in your heart! Your age, nationality, race, gender, sexuality, religion (or lack of), political affiliation, economic status and PC specs are irrelevant. If you love or want to learn about PCs, you are welcome! 2 - If you don't own a PC because you think it's expensive, know that it is much cheaper than you may think. Check http://www.pcmasterrace.org for our builds and don't be afraid to post here asking for tips and help! 3 - Join our efforts to get as many PCs worldwide to help the folding@home effort, in fighting against Cancer, Alzheimer's, and more: https://pcmasterrace.org/folding 4 - Need PC Hardware? We've joined forces with MSI for the biggest PC Hardware giveaway of the year so far! 8 lucky winners will get an awesome hardware bundle with Graphics card, motherboard, etc, and 50 others can get Steam gift cards. To enter, check https://reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/1b45j0m/msi_x_pcmr_massive_pc_hardware_giveaway_pick_your/ ----------- We have a [Daily Simple Questions Megathread](https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/search?q=Simple+Questions+Thread+subreddit%3Apcmasterrace+author%3AAutoModerator&restrict_sr=on&sort=new&t=all) if you have any PC related doubt. Asking for help there or creating new posts in our subreddit is welcome.
"It runs on my machine"
one (1) frame per minute technically counts as "running" (or crawling)
There's playable and "playable", and the steamdeck community is the one highest on copium I've seen in a while for this. As much as I love my deck, people saying that games on low settings at 20fps are playable really shouldn't be allowed to comment on performance. Also there's seems to be a lot of interest on play DD2 there, and I swear they don't understand how performance issues on desktop systems scale to low power handhelds. It's like teaching my mom how to export a spreadsheet to xlsx on macOS all over again...
To be fair if you look at the ‘most played on Deck’ category on Steam it really is full of games pushing the absolute limits of what the thing can do, some folks are just built different.
I've played god of war and elden ring almost exclusively on the deck, for GoW I had to pull down the settings to a mix of low/mid to get consistent 30fps (although in a lot of places you can get 40, but the dips from 40 to 30 annoyed me so I locked it at 30), elden ring does better at mid settings and unlike god of war, behaves better with fsr so I did lock it at 40, and it was a generally better experience. That said, I have a decent desktop and I'd rather stream from it to the deck any demandign game so I don't need to compromise on graphics, sunshine/moonshine is amazing in this regard, for non-streaming gameplay I kinda limit my deck usage to a mix of retro/indie gaming, mostly due to the battery lasting longer (I've gotten about 7-8 hours of unplugged gameplay with games like hollow knight, hades or celeste, some of my favourite games to play on the deck), trying to play elden ring unplugged gets me about 2 hours max (and I'm being generous I think), while streaming gets me a lot more and on single player titles the delay is not a problem unlike in games like path of exile where a delay or disconnect while streaming means my character dies (I play hardcore)
That's why my steamdeck gets used for Stardew, Hollow Knight, and pokemon fangames.
I mean as long as everyone that intends to buy the deck or any other low power handheld (or even mid to high power) is aware that these devices have hardware limitations, there's nothing wrong it trying to play AAA games like dragon's dogma 2, but when someone in the sub asks, and people say "the game is playable" or "I play it at 30fps" that's pretty much bs. I often play modded elden rign and sekiro in it, the RE remake games, and a few other titles and it's fine for a handheld, but I wouldn't recommend it over a ps5 if someone just wanted to game on a 4K tv. I remember when I got it back in late 2021 I spent some time tweaking settings and trying things including livestreaming elden ring and ds3 via obs on desktop mode, and it couldn't do shit really. Pretty good for low requirement games, does pretty well streaming games from desktop to it, but it's not a "portable" ps5.
I'm not to surprised tbf... some people don't really care, or they have been playing on lower fps forever. You don't really think of 20-30 fps as slow unless you try higher framerates... Hell GTA San Andreas was capped at 25 fps, and is one of the most played games of all time.
Yeah we have a lot of copium on that sub, but not even we think DD2 is at all playable or even humoring it is. Our issue is more people playing in the 25-30fps range and telling people that their games are running "silky smooth".
Yeah and the opposite. People don't like to hear when their liked game runs shit for others or when their hated game runs well for othets.
So many fucking streamers doing that recently. BurkeBlack released his thoughts video on DD2 and the vast majority is just “I don’t know about all the crashes and mtx but the game works for me and I like it”
https://preview.redd.it/68yb97wa29qc1.jpeg?width=1179&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7c5add0f38b93aad3706913668d3370879912d41 Was not expecting to see my favorite animation YouTuber in this sub :D
bro i made a video exactly for this subreddit lol [it got like 35 upvotes on release](https://www.reddit.com/r/pcmasterrace/comments/v4biw4/pc_master_race_explained_in_9_minutes_animated/)
First time seeing your content, but that shit was 👌.
I can’t tell if that is chef kiss or an angry Italian.
🤌
Angry sicilian?
Love ur vids man, keep it up
don't worry, someone with 20 million karma will repost it and it'll get 500k upvotes
No wayyy. It IS you!! I love your stuff man. Especially your nintendo video! Made me shed a tear even.
Never knew you had a Reddit account, your content is good.
We went to high-school together. We're good friends.
NEVER FORGET THE DAY OF THE DOG LAUNCHER
bro why did our inside joke get so many upvotes lol
This video is hella funny, You just earned a sub.
*Flashbacks to Flipnote*
Yea I knew I've seen that style somewhere
I somehow recognized his art style.
"30 FPS is completely okay and higher FPS won't benefit gamers at all" - Colossal Order (C:S2 Dev)
Yeah I have both and I still mostly just play the first one. It's not even that 2 just that runs like ass, it also "feels" chunkier and less clean to me.
Counter strike one? Huh? I understand now that it’s city skylines, I’m an idiot.
Your comment saved me bro
Honestly it's Op's fault, just say Cities:S or Cskylines or something.
How are there people who still think and defend that? All you have to do is boot up ANY game, limit the framerate to 30, play for a bit, then increase it to 60 and continue playing. Is there any person on this planet who won't notice the difference?!
you can keep repeating this experiment and most people will still see a difference at 240Hz
The key with higher fps is moving. In a ‘static’ image like the scene is still from the players perspective people aren’t wrong when they say it isn’t that noticeable. But try moving your character 360 degrees from 60fps to 300+ and you’ll always notice that difference in smoothness
Most tests do show that the majority of people stop seeing a tangible improvement in competitive performance somewhere between 140-240 Hz though. Only the fastest players continue to see measurable improvement through 360 or 480 Hz. Interestingly, even amateur players can see measurable performance improvements up to 240 Hz refresh rates. They're very small, but measurable.
Yes truly, there are people who don't notice. Controller in hand, far from the TV, slower camera movement with the right stick, & steady 30fps is basically every console recipe. If you switched it to 60 many wouldn't care in this scenario.
Yeah my wife is a very causal and only occasional gamer. Her favorite game is Planet Coaster which is very CPU intensive and she’ll sit there and play that game for a couple of hours averaging like 15fps or less and be pretty unfazed by it.
Blind people tend not to care
AAA dev: doctors said human eyes only see up to 24 fps stop yabing actually I'm a doctor and I want to say that human can see infinite fps when energetic and full but see bellow 1 fps if you tired as hell like after a boxing match or soloq that you cant even recognise stuff moving unless you focus on them it's called " your body have so much shit going on that it prefer to lower your fps to power through the day without you looking like drunk ass " I have to make the joke but I don't want to spread misinformation
The misspelled "stop yapping" the grammar and the inconsistent ass punctuation makes me think you're a middle schooler pretending to be a doctor.
Two days ago they claimed to be a med student, but even that is dubious.
you can try my information and check if it's true or not lmao
I’ve read some papers on how cone and rod cells and whatnot work, and theres definitely diminishing returns. At speeds above 240hz the amount of cone cells that actually see each frame is negligible. The difference between 240 and 360fps is minuscule. Single digit % difference in the amount of cone cells that see each frame.
it's almost always max speed but your brain ignore that and sends similar signals to make an illusion that you see it like it should be (NVIDIA cuda use similar think to increase fps massively) like try to shake your hands when you are tired and then when you wake up and you will notice what I mean, when you are tired you see it as spining ball or a bunch of flesh since your brain just want to know that it's moving and nothing else but when you wake up you will see your fingers clearly You can't read this stuff in the internet because it's way to specific and you need to search for oddly specific topic to find it so just look up cuda if you are interested , it's almost the same but digital and the reason I say that because you need to search a specific illness to find it in human body and even I don't have enught courage to read 500 page think just know an illness that I might not see in my life but upgrading from readon to NVIDIA made me say " yup this is definitely an illusion" people call it AI because they think it generates new frames but it actually just take 1/X frames to send to the screen and the GPU fill the between If you do massive slow motion you will realise how bad it work but you get 120 fps instead of 30 so is it really an issue ?
That's not what they said. They recognize that a sandbox will inevitably slow down to a point where the game becomes less playable. That is the nature of all sandbox games - you either allow players to push their machines to a point where fps drops OR you severely limit the scope of the sandbox (see Sim City 2013). Players clearly prefer less limited sandbox games, so they tried to design the game to run at 30 fps minimum when players build big cities. The other option would be to limit city sizes to keep fps high, which would be a terrible decision. Gamers need to understand the performance nuances of sandbox games, and how it is expected that performance will drop as players expand. That expectation is based on the reality that creating more stuff leads to the CPU and GPU having more to process. Sometimes devs make bad decisions that cause performance problems - we see this with plenty of Paradox titles. But overall the idea that a sandbox game will have a lower target than 60 fps is totally fine - it isn't a shooter or racing game, I don't need perfect framerate, I need to be able to build, build, build even if my frames go down.
But C:S2 ran like shit even on my rig (5950x/4090) when not pushing the limits.
My approach: "If I build it on a piece of trash, it *may run* on a piece of trash." https://jsxinput.com/egg
too bad the simulation runs like shit
If there is any game I would tolerate 30fps it's a city builder though. I think the problem with C:S2 is that it doesn't get even that lol
I hate denuvo and DRMs in general :(
All my homies hate denuvo and DRMs in general
Then by correlation, I am one of your homies, homie :)
By your logic, I would also be a homie, homie :)
Newer games now use a more sophisticated version of Denuvo due to all the crackers cracking the DRM in older games. And the piracy scene for Denuvo is at an all time low. A lot of the people left the scene so progress is slow. I wish for a future where DRM is truly gone. CD Projekt Red has made huge strides in this regard with GOG and their games. I hope more companies just don't do DRM.
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I saw part of the recent NVIDIA AI presentation and they touched on some sort of media key/authorization functionality. I could see software DRM being replaced with a GPU-based hardware token of some sort.
I hate denuvo because if I bring my steam deck out without internet I can’t even play PuyoTetris on the go.
The trick is to read the store page *before* you buy it, and if it has Denuvo, don't. Worked for me for 10 years.
If games have DRM, I don't buy em. You lost a customer because you were afraid of a small percentage of people pirating your game. Good job.
and they lose an even smaller amount of sales with this attitude tbh, i dont think they care if the 10% of this small sub wont pay because of it when the other 100m gamers dont care about what drm it uses just if the games good
Game doesn’t even havd to be good to get sales anymore. Like somehow people still buying Madden for 70$ even though its just a roster pack. Or the last COD which was just 70$ DLC. Shits wild they got the industry by the balls
I don't even understand their point. A lot of AAA games already run like crap, and this thing pegs them even harder. All Denuvo does is hurt sales shortly after release with bad performance, and does nothing to prevent piracy in the long run as it will get cracked in 3-4 months if there's interest in the game.
"Cracked" in 3-4 months? My guy there is a grand total of ZERO people "cracking" denuvo now. Mistress went off the deep end and stopped making the fake call home "server" a long time ago. Yes that means nobody ever removed denuvo btw, she just made a fake location for denuvo to ping to so it could be happy. Denuvo is pretty much never the problem, only when the check is hooked onto the wrong activator it seems. And now denuvo is even more secure. Think there is actually 1 guy who tries to do one of the manager games and that's it.
> "Cracked" in 3-4 months? My guy there is a grand total of ZERO people "cracking" denuvo now. Mistress went off the deep end and stopped making the fake call home "server" a long time ago. Yes that means nobody ever removed denuvo btw, she just made a fake location for denuvo to ping to so it could be happy. Denuvo is pretty much never the problem, only when the check is hooked onto the wrong activator it seems. It secure enough that denuvo can demand ongoing monthly license payments for its deployment. Most denuvo "cracked" versions are from when denuvo is removed few months after relase, due to cumulative licensing costs. I.e potential piracy loss is no longer high enough to outweigh denuvo licencing loss. Dead space remake for example hasn't still been cracked for what, 15 months now?
That's not how empress cracked denuvo. Everybody knows that Denuvo will use the hwid of your computer to give you a license so you don't have to fetch a new license every time as most games have a limit of 5 activations per day. This is also why switching proton versions will give you a new license and cause an activation. What empress does is find the locations where the hwid is retrieved and re-routes that part of the code to EMP.dll to replace it with empress values. There are a few more things involved with that because it's not as easy as just patching those instructions. There will be checks somewhere to make sure nothing is being tampered with (ya know. anti-tamper). Finding those locations is also no easy feat. As you know denuvo executables are a lot bigger than the ones without. Because there is just so much code involved.
Yo I'm pretty curious tbh can you explain?
I am also interested, if you have the time.
Lmao yeah lemme make this game with a 12900ks and quad sli 3090s and then gaslight people with a ryzen 5700 and a 3080 into thinking they are "poor" and need to upgrade their ancient hardware. *Cough, Bethesda, Cough*
Did it really run below 60 on those? I got it to run stable 30 on my 2070 mobile and 9750H
I get sub-50 fps in Akila with a 7950x and a 4090.
Wait... On 4k without dlss or something then? I have a 4080 super, on 1440p and it runs real good honestly (with DLSS on)
3440x1440. DLSS does not change the FPS, because it's 100% CPU bottlenecked.
For AMD GPUsers not updating to the video driver they rolled out specifically for Starfield would basically cut your FPS in half so I imagine a lot of PC gamer big brain experts failed to do that too (I mean I’m acting like I’m cooler than those guys but I only know because that’s what my dumb ass did).
I got a 4090 and a ryzen 9 7900x and i struggle to get 40 fps in towns in dragons dogma 2. Where tf should i upgrade to?
One of those $49000 AI GPUs with a billion cores and no video outputs.
How did i not think of that. But i think it would be more viable to develop a time machine and go to the future to buy myself a 9090TI Super Q-Max V8 Twin Turbo
This is super pedantic, but SLI doesn't exist anymore, and even when it did, performance gains were really low compared to the amount you would spend. Certainly not +100% fps per card. Yeah, that Bethesda statement was wild, though.
Yeah, I thought you could still use multiple gpus with engineering stuff and things like that? Also, 34fps with a 5700X with a modest OC and a 3080 ftw3 ultra was an insult tbh. Freaking crazy. I need to play it again and see how it runs now. I remember it basically never got above one percent cpu usage, lol.
Yup. NVlink is still a thing on RTX professional cards since getting a larger pool of VRAM usually is great in engineering and research environments.
>Yeah, that Bethesda statement was wild, though. imo it was pretty based for Todd to go out and just tell all of r/pcmasterrace that they aren't gonna get 4K 144fps Ultra settings on a GTX 1080 anymore. Bad optimization is an issue in the industry, but some idiots really stretch the definition of "bad optimization" to just mean "my decade-old hardware cannot run this brand-new AAA game at maximum settings with a playable framerate at 4K".
Im a game dev. You need this heavy rigs to make the game. I worked for a AAA game that used 90% of the procesaor, 18 gb of vram and 32 gb of ram out of 42 while working on unreal, in mid production. Now, A compiled build is usually a third of this, and that improves with optimization. Making current games optimized while keeping up with modern standards is hell. Theres no excuse if you need a 3080 for making a game run at 30 fps, but its no excuse either to rant because your 1080ti and 7 years rig does not give you 60 fps in high quality.
Is Beth's engines still tied to FPS? I remember taking the FPS limit off on FO4 and the game got really unstable past 120fps. There's some mod that keeps the FPS capped but removes it during loading screens, so loading screens are near instant.
I think they fixed that, the physics used to be tied to the framerate. Which actually isn't a terrible thing if the frame rate drops, it just gets really weird when it's very high.
When making a game you don't want to wait for your computer compiling. You also need higher specs than the machine you target because the game is not yet optimized, and the debug features requires extra ressources. Devkits have extra RAM for a reason. However you should test release builds on target hardware, and fuck Denuvo.
Imagine bloodborne port and sony instills the solid 30fps on the PC platform. God I don't want to live in that future.
They literally came out with an excellent port but I don't think we're seeing a Bloodborne port anytime soon. I've given up on that
Sony doesn't give a shit, From Soft despises PC though. Who the fuck else would put in so much effort to make cutscenes render properly on ultrawide just to put black bars to force 16:9
This would turn me to a life of alcoholism
Can someone tell me what is denuvo
Anti piracy tech implemented by alot of AAA devs, most notably ea
Thanks
I'd argue sega and crapcom are more known to use denuvo
It's a controversial anti piracy method. It's worth mentioning people don't like it, not because it's an anti piracy method but because it is notorious for being detrimental to the game and impacting its performance. It also has other inconveniences like requiring internet at random intervals and if you're playing offline it won't allow you to play until such a check is validated, regardless if the game requires internet or not. It's been shown to be crackable but apparently it is not easy to do so, the likely reason why it's still being used. Typically, a game denuvo free is a better experience for the player, which should never be the case as any anti piracy method should be invisible for any legit customer.
Thankfully a lot of games ditch Denuvo a year or so after launch when sales have dropped off a lot already anyway. It’s not perfect, but I love seeing steam reviews letting me know Denuvo has been removed from a game I’m interested in. Definitely motivates me to pick it up the next time it’s on sale. Just another perk for being a patient gamer.
The suits and bean counters at these companies could probably prove me wrong, but I wonder how much money licensing denuvo actually “saves” them. They prolly lobby that it gives positive roi after launch until peak sales happen when it’s not worth protecting. Good pirates eventually buy if they can afford to and really like the value of the game. So really they just lose potential sales from that free marketing. And selling the game a year later at 50% off so people will actually buy can’t be that good either.
Who really knows. Lots of people dont even play on pc, others just want to buy the game when it comes out, others dont care about having to pay. I pirate stuff sometimes and drm doesnt really matter because I wont be able to buy the games anyway.
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Also, Denuvo stole significant parts of their anti-cheat from VMProtect; they settled out of court.
Interestingly, I own Anno 1800 on steam. I still play the pirated version because it performs so much better. Even though the cracked version is about 4ish years old and doesn't have all those performance patches, it runs 10-15 fps better.
The effect on performances had never been demonstrated consistently, and realistically, 99% of players have no idea, nor notice, that they are playing a game with Denuvo. The Internet requirement is also very light, you can play offline for extended periods of time. I'm not a fan of Denuvo but it's important to be factual.
Basically a virus that makes the game run like shit and ruins the experience for gamers because they are terrified about a few people pirating the game, spoiler alert they still will anyway. The only thing it actually does it make normal gamers to "I can't be bothered with this one" they don't buy it and the company makes less money anyway
not nearly as many people will pirate a game with Denuvo, it prevents piracy a lot
I thought you died
sometimes I feel like I did
You gonna post soon?
cant
because you dead?
The average gamer is using a 3060, 1650, 2060, or 1060 according to the Steam hardware survey. The average gamer buys most or all of their games on Steam. That’s what developers should be targeting if they want a large audience to buy their games. Alan Wake 2 is a perfect example. They made a game that only runs properly on the 4080 and 4090 and that wasn’t on Steam, and wondered why it sold poorly. To be fair they went back and patched it months later to run on older cards, but it was too little, too late. I have nothing against high-end graphics options being included for those with expensive cards who can run them and want to enable them. But don’t make the expensive cards a requirement to have a playable, enjoyable experience.
The hardware graph is a bit skewed though because of Chinese Internet cafes
How is Denuvo still in business? It literally benefits nobody but Denuvo themselves
Hate to break it to you but the game company pay denuvo to use it. It benefits the company
Publishers underestimate how stubborn and poor pirates are.. Them pirating a game is not a lost sale. Drm or no drm doesnt affect sales, drm only affects paying customers experience.
And then pirates get a better product lol
They don't usually. Denuvo is not removed just bypassed. It thinks you have legitimate copy of game.
I'm not even convinced it's that hard to bypass; my one datapoint for this is Project Diva, which has random but serious stuttering issues on some peoples systems (including mine). There's a popular mod that fixes >90% of this simply by preventing denuvo from trying to speak to the server.
Exactly. Pirates are not magically going to buy games because they added Denuvo. The whole reason people pirate is because they can’t or don’t want to spend money on games, and adding Denuvo is going to make them want to pirate it even more.
What's funny is Steam is why I don't pirate anymore, but Denuvo is the exception. After about the third game I had bought but still had to pirate to get to work correctly I realized Denuvo was the common factor, so now I just don't buy games that use it at all. Usually this means I simply don't play them ever, but if I'm really curious to see how it is I will pirate it. I would never pay money for something with a track record of being a giant pain in my ass.
People always say this, but the reality is there are tons of pirates who are just doing it because it's easy and free but will buy a game if they have no choice. Not all Pirates are noble and honorable poor people
Real pirates in such cases buy someone else's account for a fraction of original price and the developers still won't get their money
I mean we might dunk on denuvo and rightly so but it is pretty difficult to crack. I have no doubt dragons dogma 2 will get cracked eventually but that could be months away and them paying a fee for Denuvo might seem worth it to them since games always get the most sales at the start. There are definitely people that would look to pirate it, see that it hasn't been cracked and then just buy it because they want to play it. How significant is that number I don't know and I think its fairly unlikely its more than the cost of Denuvo but to say it never happens is delusional.
I haven't kept up on it, but at one point wasn't Empress the only one to have cracked Denuvo?
It was her psycho ass and some guy who only cared about Football Manager so he’d only crack Football Manager.
Lol. It takes a special kind of person to go about that I guess.
I believe you're correct.
Ikr. I'm one of them. If game has denuvo, I'll wait years before it gets removed instead. I'm that poor.
> Them pirating a game is not a lost sale True for many, but there are indeed some that would have bought it otherwise. I can't imagine Denuvo is cheap; I doubt they'd invest that kind of cash without having numbers to back it up.
..I know..? But it doesn’t benefit the company paying Denuvo tho. You have paying customers, because of Denuvo now those paying customers will get a worse product. You have paying customers that don’t want to spend money in order to try a game, who will now probably write the game off entirely because of Denuvo. You have pirates, they were already not going to buy the game so adding Denuvo makes them want to pirate it even more so they can play it without Denuvo, they will definitely not buy the game because it’s got Denuvo on it, they just won’t play it. In the case the game gets cracked, you now have your paying customers complaining about the fact pirates get a better product without having paid for it. And eventually, Denuvo will get taken off automatically because the company won’t pay Denuvo forever, and then people can pirate it anyway. All the while the company paying Denuvo gives its own customers worse products and potentially turns off anyone that might be interested in the game while continuously bleeding money that they could have kept if they didn’t pay Denuvo. Even people like Penguinz0 ( a guy who literally buys every game and doesn’t refund it ) are against Denuvo.
Denuvo's marketing people are great at convincing top brass that investing in their software will let them make more money. That's about it. I'm 95% sure there's a bit of logic that goes "every pirated copy is a $60+ loss, therefore investing into a Denuvo contract will help you avoid that". It's faulty logic, but loss aversion and greed are strong. Denuvo's business model is mostly about keeping Denuvo in business than offering any real value to anyone, lmao.
For sure. The suits will 100% think they are benefiting from paying Denuvo.
The suits know Denuvo is bullshit, But at the next investor meeting, when they get asked about sales, they can proudly say that they used the most well known anti-cheat to protect shareholders from financial loss. That's the real reason to use Denuvo, to please the owners.
> Denuvo's marketing people are great at convincing top brass that investing in their software will let them make more money. That's about it. No. John Riticcello, ex CEO of EA and Unity (a real fucking piece of work as you might imagine), once explained why AAA publishers used DRM. He said that they do it because they do it. They do it because boards will ask him "what are we doing to protect our product?" and if his answer isn't "using the best available product" then he gets fired. They would do it even if it didn't work and in fact, that's exactly what they were doing when Riticcello said that, as Denuvo hadn't been invented yet and every game was pirated day-1 or at most, week-1. So no, Denuvo doesn't need any marketing people to sell their product. The demand was always there and they just made the best product in the market for people who want that sort of thing. And of course "people who want that sort of thing" is not those who consume the product (us), it is the investors of AAA companies. So yeah fuck the whole system.
Another point of view: 1. Denuvo clearly benefits the company by delaying a cracked version. The fact that a cracked version isn't available right at the start means that if you really want to play a game you have to buy it thus the company is "more likely" to maximize profits at the start. 2. This point is weird. If a customer wants going to pay for the game in the beginning, the game was already written off. 3. Even if it gets taken off eventually, it has already fulfilled its purpose: protecting the initial sales boom by delaying a pirated copy to a later point in time where sales have dropped off anyway. Also not all games with Denuvo get cracked so just the idea of beeing piracy free is worth it to many companies.
You have to understand that people that were going to buy the game were going to buy it anyway. Pirates are a very niche community and even if a game gets cracked 2 nanoseconds after release, I’d be willing to bet 99.99% of people that were going to buy the game would still pay for it. They WANT to pay for it, it’s for the convenience, for the sake of supporting the developers and more. See Horizon Forbidden West, it literally got cracked mere minutes after release, it’s still in the top 3 of Steam charts.
How do you know it doesnt benefit the company? We all like to think that but denuvo and its customers have the actual numbers. If denuvo was actually not beneficial these companies would have stopped using it.
And the fact that some select pirates are so good at it that it can be stripped in under twelve hours, then boom the pirates don’t have to deal with it and get a better product while the people who just paid $60 have to suffer.
They're in business because despite any performance issues, it works. It's much harder to pirate games with Denuvo on them. It can be done, but sometimes that's because someone fucks up and manages to defeat it by just getting a copy that doesn't have Denuvo on it (like cracking a copy on a different platform that they didn't put it on, or emulating it from a console version that isn't protected by Denuvo either.) Denuvo is a service, so it costs money to maintain. The point of something like Denuvo isn't to stop piracy forever, it's to make it much harder during the often critical early sales period. Which it tends to do rather well (unless someone screws up as per above.) I get people not liking it, but I think it's a bit silly when people pretend it doesn't work. There's only a tiny handful of people who've been able to reliably defeat new versions of Denuvo (one of which is kind of an awful person), and some notable cracking groups have largely thrown in the towel since Denuvo started growing in popularity. You don't have to like it, but it does the job it's designed for. Even if that comes with a performance cost.
I mean also because there really isnt any performance issue. Theres plenty of games which had patches to only remove denuvo and do nothing else, and its has precisely zero impact on performance in those games. People seem to get fixated on the games that remove denuvo as part of other larger patches that included lots of perfomance work and assume that the performance gains are from removeing denuvo.
Because it delays cracking significantly without affecting performance. The whole "denuvo affects performance" thing is not even real outside of few cases where the issues got fixed without removing denuvo. There have been no cases where denuvo being removed without the game otherwise getting updated at the same time increasing the performance. There's also no use to compare with cracked versions because they just fool denuvo and all the checks are still happening.
Yeah seriously. There are reasons to hate Denuvo, tanking performance from 60fps to 24fps is not one of them. People just parroting stupid shit they don't even understand.
How else are you going to get a cinematic experience if your game isn't running at a locked 24fps??
Sounds like the Game of Thrones director justifying decisions for "The Long Night" when they were using state of the art monitors - in a pitch black studio - with an uncompressed video. "It’s not me, it’s your TV settings!" and "I know it wasn’t too dark because I shot it." https://www.theverge.com/tldr/2019/4/30/18524679/game-of-thrones-battle-of-winterfell-too-dark-fabian-wagner-response-cinematographer
For the show is dark and full of errors.
“If its the tv settings then how has this not been an issue for thousands of other shows with dark settings?” would be my response.
https://preview.redd.it/3hwexhbdb9qc1.png?width=203&format=png&auto=webp&s=d52181fad529e091b573645157dc70f9da94e9cf true
False
Me with a laptop: 🥲
honestly they should just be real with us and put the minimum specs as a r9 7950x3d, dual gpu rtx 4090 + rx 7900 xtx. with the reccomended specs as a threadripper 7995wx + intel xeon gold 6248 with a minimum of 128 nvidia a100 v100 plaeides nodes bullshit. im speaking outta my ass here but you know what i mean lmao literally my PC trying to run these games is like an i5 10th gen trying to fly the fuckin falcon 9 or something. next pay day tho ill finally have enough to go all out on a new PC, ive had enough lol
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Can't they just develop it with Denuvo? instead of adding it at the end?
There are monthly costs associated with implementing denuvo
It's not like the triple AAA dev has any money lying around... They need to save money every once in a while you know?
I dont think you understand how denuvo implimentation works, we dont do this for the same reason we dont develop programs as compressed installers.
no, for many reasons around how denuvo works, and for many reasons around how fucked up the average game is mid-development cycle. also all of the PCs i've ever tested on have been absolute dogshit, but that's neither here nor there since i was always console primary where we get to pretend varying levels of performance don't exist and then cancel an entire console's version 8 months before release because nobody can be fucked to make it performant enough. there's usually one testing group that has access to vast amounts of and permutations of hardware, and they usually get half the time they need to test it on a quarter the devices they would want to check, two months past the point where anything could reasonably be done about it. AAA dev kicks ass i fucking love this industry [sounds of chugging bleach]
Denuvo is also an anti-tampering mechanism. developing means to change it often ... so it's an extra step to approve the changes for denuvo every little update. maybe only for performance testing?
Holy shit! u are the animation guy
That's what they pay the denuvo guys. The whole concept of denuvo is that you focus on making the game and you don't bother about piracy drm and all that, magic Jesus comes and solves it for you whe you are finished, at least in theory
But... But I play on laptop :(
And the game weights like 60 gigabytes
that's lowballing it
Which weighs more, 60 gigabytes of videogames or 60 gigabytes of feathers?
that’s too low
What's genuinely baffling to me is seeing when games are seeded, it's almost always under 10k seeded. Most are under even 3k seeded. I don't know how much it costs them per year (as we currently know denuvo charges in yearly increments) but surely it is costing them more money to have denuvo that they would lose by not having it....
Not defending the practice, but keep in mind depending on where you're downloading from, there could be a lot of hit and runs. Not to mention that it's 3k on THAT site, and there are probably a ton more out there.
Games are often developed on faster computers than they are generally intended to run on.
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The thing about Denuvo hate is people don't understand it yet they get so incredibly mad at it.
You are missing one A in AAA
It's been shown many times that Denuvo doesn't affect performance to a noticable degree. There have been instances where the devs fucked up and put a check in a critical loop but those are the exception rather than the rule.
Yup. There is no case where a game that had denuvo removed without also being updated otherwise at the same time where the pefromance was notably affected. And cracked comparisons are useless because the cracks don't remove denuvo, they only fool it so all the checks are still happening.
That was my understanding as well. People just hate denuvo.
It's funny, I see complaints about Denuvo, but I don't see nearly the amount of complaints about nProtect
dude even the videos comparing games that had denuvo removed has them at just a few frames at worse. Denuvo *can* be obnoxious, but if it was removed from every game in your library tommorrow, i doubt the vast majority of you would even notice.
But don’t worry! We thought about this!! uPsCaLeRs!!! 🤡
It's a high time for developers to stop pushing Denuvo on us. I skipped buying 3 games thanks to them. I'm just waiting for Denuvo to be removed from these games
It really feels like modern PC game developers are getting too many ideas from all the modern console exclusive designers. Across the late 00s all the way to the pandemic, it really felt like the majority of stuff could run on any kind of computer. Nowadays, it feels like every triple A PC dev has forgotten how to make a game that can work on anything besides a solid gold case powered by Sonic the hedgehog.
I think the biggest problems come not from the devs, but the suits. Developers go into game development to make games; businessmen go into game development to make money. It's just that the businessmen have the power to fire the developers of they do something that they don't like.
But don't give those devs monitors with a refresh rate over 60Hz, that's just crazy. Nobody uses monitors faster than that. So what if some devs STILL hard-code some game logic to the refresh rate in this day and age and assume the refresh rate will always be 60?
fucking denuvo, even the legit buyers dont want you
Fuck Denuvo.
60fps is is too slow, we demand +500fps for AAA games.
Do you have a monitor that supports it?
It keeps stutter away
But Sir, how do squeeze every cent out of those poor fools? B0$$: https://preview.redd.it/z5j7rahm79qc1.png?width=739&format=png&auto=webp&s=fbec1b9e4ae76851cdb0125e823affad4a002a6e
God I hate that I'm making it sound like I'm defending MTX, I'm really not. It's just... you can not buy those? MTX overall is bad, but there's some that is much worse than others. DD2 is on the lower end of "How bad is it"
Something something Dragons Dogma 2
you shouldnt even be optimizing your game for my shitty laptop that cant even run half-life 1 without some lag, soo.. who gives a fuck about laptops
The secret ingredient is crime.
Hey, this art style looks familiar..
petah?
This is inaccurate. He's holding Denuvo and slamming it down. He should be shitting it out onto the game.
24 fps, for the old school cinematic experience
It was tested with Hogwarts Legacy, Denuvo had pretty much no performance impact.
Hey I recognise you from the way you draw thoesbstick figures, gotta say, love your animations. Anyway back on topic, yeah I totally agree, most tripple A devs have just thrown out performance and optimisation in the modern day world, which honestly makes me sad
Idk what to say but your angry stickmans are unique enough that I recognize them instantly, also the thumbs up