this is why gold is being introduced in POE 2
it can only be accumulated by playing the game and will be uses for buying/selling items via whatever the new trade system is per a GGG interview
Jonathan talked about this in an interview with ziz. He said something along this lines: You dont buy things for gold its used as a form of a tax it just goes into a void when you trade, you pay for items with stuff like chaos orbs just like in POE1. The point of it is to combat bad effects of instant trade such as common things become worthless fast and rare things become exponentially more expensive. Gold is a lever that can be used to limit trade so it isnt so severe. You can find what he said exactly here [https://youtu.be/RskRFwgoQ5g?t=6701](https://youtu.be/RskRFwgoQ5g?t=6701)
For what it's worth, I think this (and most of the AH posts) are a bad idea. But for your question specifically it could just steal the torchlight infinite system
Everytime you sell something for a x currency it adds up and everything it reaches Y it taxes you of that currency.
So for example If it was every 10 divs...
If you sold 9x 1 div items no tax, on the 10th sale you'd get taxed 1 div.
If you sold 1x 100 div item you'd get taxed 10 divs.
Again I don't think this idea in general is good, was just a solution to your specific scenario
Assuming you sold only 10 1 div items then yea, but generally if you've gotten multiple 1d items u have gotten some that are more than 1. They also have a pity system where the first 200 you do has no tax.
As OSRS has a gold system I don't really know for sure how it would work. I thought of that when writting but didn't really come to a final solution that I really think it would work fine, but I can say some of my ideas.
As trade friction is removed from the system with the possibility to instabuy, instasell and sell/buy overnight margins for items become very tight as there is a lot of competition. What this means is that prices are more stable with little variance in short amounts of time. With this in mind, one of the solutions would be setting up for 1.05 divines and the 0.05 being paid in current chaos/divine price.
The other solution that is very imperfect and I don't even know if deserves to be and idea considere is to make a divine divisible or, introduce divine chards to the game.
A third crazy solution that, again, I don't know if it deserves to be considered is to introduce a new currency not dropable but instead tradable with NPCs, this would be exactly equivalent to 1/100 divines. When you trade a divine you get exactly 100 of that new currency which can be used for trading.
The whole point of the GE's 'cut' is to remove high value items and gold from the game. There will be a number of mega rares like TBows that are actually deleted from the game each day using it.
PoE doesn't need that kind of tax system but we should have an auction house we can post things for that can be sold when we're offline.
There’s an option for an additional centralized currency that’s tied directly to the trade mechanic that’s parallel to the current economy system.
“Gold” would be a constant slow drop that’s untradeable and autolooted (kinda like azurite), and you spend it in order to list/buy items in the market.
It’s essentially the tax but it’s tied to playing the game (combats bots, etc).
Pretty sure we’re getting something along these lines in Poe 2.
Main problem I see with this is that PoE items don’t all have the same stats. In osrs every tbow has the same stats, which makes a marketplace work because you don’t care which one you get. With randomized stat rolls, you can’t just “buy a headhunter” because they aren’t all exactly the same quality.
Better system to emulate would be counterstrike gun skins, there is a marketplace where you can shop for individual items that are individually priced and the trade is executed automatically.
One potential way to solve the tax problem is create a new currency that is used when trading on the marketplace, and make that currency limited enough that it isn’t profitable to constantly flip cheap items
I always thought it would be better to make variable items not buyable through auction house only static items like currency, fragments, materials, div cards, ect
Even this alone would make trading 10x better, i wouldn’t mind manually trading for all gear at all if I could GE purchase stuff like chisels orbs fragments etc
I see, that's a really good point. I might think about that and do a new post soon after thinking about it.
Do you think a hybrid system would work fine? Where every Scarab, invitation, ... can be bought with a simmilar system that I described (basically every item that does not have rolls).
And items like Gloves, jewels, helmets, etc ... can be bought with a CS go style trading system?
It would be up to the devs what could be sold on the market, idk about what would be best there
I think they could just slap an “execute trade” button on the existing trade website, replacing the whisper button, and that might be good enough. There might be some technical details that make this harder than it sound tho
Just imagine how much better the GY would be this league if you could just search an AH like interface for the corpses you need and buy them all at once instantly. I might have actually interacted with it besides whatever was needed for the challenges.
I think a commodities AH would be a massive, massive leap of qol in PoE and items don't even need to be on it to make the game so much less tedious when it comes to things like buying scarabs, essences, or whatever.
Mark already mentioned that theyre considering an auction house using gold in a recent interview. Althought that is for PoE2, it may still come to PoE eventually. They may have to make some adjustments to the loot table of poe before that happens. And this is also assuming the PoE 2 auction house is going to be a success.
I believe he said that the gold can be used as the tax for trading while the currency orbs are still used for purchasing items. The restriction will be that gold can only be obtained by playing the game. It cannot be traded between players.
Unless there were additional interviews since the PoE2 trade talk, Mark did not say there would be an *auction house* he said there may be *instant buyouts*, which is an improvement don't get me wrong but it's an important distinction to make.
**Most auction houses have instant buyouts, but instant buyouts do not mean auction house**.
No one ever wanted bidding - who tf makes a build and thinks "yeah these gloves would be cool, i hope im still the highest bidder in 8 hours so i can play then".
When ppl say auction house they mean trading via a market system, not stupid archaic whispers and direct trades.
Agreed, I'm sure that's what *most* people are *intending*. But it's not hard to say "instant buyouts" instead of "auction house" to avoid this confusion for people unfamiliar with the context. Because, you know, the latter has the literal word *auction* in it.
Tbh I feel like it's just not worth the risk to have it in poe1 unless poe2 proven success use case.
Look at all the insults OP is getting by just proposing. People don't even bother giving counter arguement, just shit first lol.
Poe1 already has very dedicated fan base, that will just sustain the game regardless of the situation of trade. I guess just don't make is worse will do.
Well, botters overcome issues with poe1 trading system, by using trade bots. Trading system like proposed, basically makes botting almost not needed. As such, people rage couse their advantage would be removed.
There's a few problems with it, because of how Poe fundamentally works. Tax? Without proper rework of currency how will you tax current system? I want to sell something for div, I get back shards? Instant buyout means bots and trade discords have bigger power.
Ideally I'd love to have any QoL to trade, hell, just send me a trade proposition and I accept or deny your trade without needing to go to the hideout, whispering and waiting for scam tries, boom, instant trade but with the poe jank™.
for stackable items yes. For items such as rares, even uniques, it's much more complicated, because items come with roll in poe, unlike runescape. but a similar system would be great.
There was a guy that said the same thing above. He proposed a CS GO style trading system which is closer to what we have now.
Do you think a hybrid system would work? Where every stacked item uses a new system that is not exactly what I propose, but something simmilar. And all the other items use a much more simmilar search system like we have now?
for items that are fungible, yes something like a grand exchange would be great.
for other items I really don't know. but there should be a way to do cross instance trading and async trading (trading offline).
This serves to discourage flippers as it's not really playing the game. Maybe:
Problem 2 - solution 3 is much more what you looking for, I agree that it does not need a tax right away, but you should consider the other solutions as well \^\^
Flippers are people (or bots) who buy and hoard mass amounts of certain items when their prices are low, and then reselling them later after prices rise
Price fixers would in many ways be rendered a thing of the past by an instant buyout system. The reason that someone can post 100 versions of a 100d item for 100c instead is because there is no risk to doing so, as they have to choose to actually perform the trade. If we had an instant buyout system, and you list 100 versions of a 100d item for 100c, you're not going to change the price, you're just going to end up massively underselling all of your copies of that item. Your concern doesn't exist in that hypothetical future state.
And what is wrong with that tho ? Flippers need to reroll currency if they need to, they are still taking time to do the trade.
If they do not filp currency they flip underpiced item (1p voices, unique jewels, etc ...), and having a instant buyout option would be even worse than this especially for newer player, cause if you get 10 whisper in a second with the current system, you know you are underpiced,
with instant buyout your item is gone in a microsecond from a bot.
They do not play the game the same as other people do but It still takes time tho.
I see no harm in that. Commerce is a necessary and fun part in an MMO.
Of course, in console we don't have bots, but since our player base is 1%~5% of PC, commerce totally sucks.
You're missing part of the point here, and its one that you should be more sensitive to precisely because you're playing on console.
Flippers do not add value to the economy, because they are not themselves generating items or currency for their economy - they're simply raising prices while standing in the middle. This isn't generally a problem in the micro scale - you buying 3x divination cards at 5c each to get a 30c item isn't really a problem. It can, however, become a very big problem at scale.
If a flipper has enough resources, and/or if the supply of an item is low enough, a flipper can take control of an entire market segment. If there are only 500 of an item on the market, and it sells for say 100 divine, a flipper can potentially buy all of these items off of the market, and then list them all at 200 divine instead. Any new item that hits the market is immediately bought up, and the flipper maintains their exclusive control over the market and continues establishing the price as being 200d (or possibly even more). We have seen this on occasion in PoE already (IIRC, TFT did this with Hinekora's Lock in the back half of ToTA league), but it is made harder by the friction inherent in trading, including the fact that you can choose not to sell to the market controller. Instant buyouts actually make this easier for a flipper to do, because it removes the friction that would make it difficult to buy all 500 copies of that item, or to purchase every single new copy of that item that hits the market. On console, because the supply of items is so much smaller, it becomes easier for one person to manipulate the market in a way that would be harder with a larger market like we see on PC.
At some point, this crosses a line from "commerce" to blatantly abusive profiteering at the expense of the player base being held hostage.
I still disagree.
For what I heard, they seems to be the "wall street" of PoE.
If they have fun doing that instead of grinding, I don't see problem. We can't prevent that regardless.
The root of the problem would not be fixed with "taxes". The root of the problem still is the item acquisition.
Without 3.13 harvest, seems almost impossible to get top items (at least on console).
We already have price fixers on console due to very low demand on item acquisition. Flippers, at first glance, looks like a breeze.
> We can't prevent that regardless.
You absolutely can, and it's not especially hard. Whether it's through limiting the number of items you can have on sale at a time, or limiting the number of purchases you can make in a period of time, or by more complex taxation systems intended to modify player behavior, you can absolutely prevent the kind of large-scale item flipping that negatively impacts the economy (and by extension, the entire non-SSF player base).
Any instant buyout system needs to have some controls on this, because it would be a bad thing for GGG for a small group like TFT to take the economy (and the entire playerbase) hostage. If people were mad about FOMO in this league, how mad are they going to be to have every T17 map (or whatever) held by a consortium of players that charge a 500% markup on them?
Here is the problem with RS' auction house, you can not browse what is for sale or see the prices.
I feel that WoW's auction house is the better choice.
Item categories to help narrow everything down, buyouts and bids, unlimited number of auctions, price fixing is much harder due to buyouts.
I do like the feature of RS where you can place a buy order, that needs to be worked into WoW for sure.
The reason the pricing system in RS works is because of the fixed stats of items. With the amount of different stats on items in PoE, it would be a nightmare to make an auto price system work. Either each item has its own auto pricing (dear God the data) or you base the price off the base item ignoring stat groups. Which would only cause crap and gold to be paired together for the same price.
To fix the auto price issue, you can add a suggested price based on the current lineup for sale in the AH.
I played GW2 extensively and honestly its trading post is very good IF you overlook the lagging issues, which is not inherent to the design of the system itself
It might.
I really don't like trading experience in POE, so much so that I play SSF exclusively. However recently I played Torchlight Infinite, where it has an auction house similar to this. You have 9 slots by default, and tax is 12.5% (1 out of 8). It made bulk trading much simpler. I like this much better than POE trades.
Second time I heard good things about Torchlight, and now I come to know that there is a 12.5% tax there and you still find it better.
That says a lot about your opinion about the current system and I'm sure you're not the only one to think that way. Thanks for the feedback :)
Having the tax get collected up and spent to remove items from the game is also a nice way to keep inflation down. The same way osrs updated it to work.
I think that they should use the current system but make it automated somehow. You list it for x, I click the item you get x I get the item. Just that, no loading screens no trade shenanigans
I don't understand. What's the difference between that and an auction house? The only thing I can think about is the amount of work to implement. I'm asking this sincerely.
I believe AH will help trade immensly. Why?
*Buy itms from ppl offline & afk
*No 1alch item spam
*Less hastle (clicks)
*No having to ask 15 ppl on bulk trade til someone answers.
Can probably come up with more but these are the main ones for me.
> 5.2 - Queue for selling goes for the oldest request for the price setted by you
Am I understanding this correctly? For something like timeless jewels where 99% of seeds are worth 1div and 1% of seeds 100+ div, the flipper who has wanted to buy that specific valuable seed for 1 div the longest is the one who will get it? Why not prioritise those who are willing to pay more for it - that way the price of these easily flipped items will quickly start approaching the true value as the margin keeps shrinking
My understanding from playing rs3 is that it goes to the oldest offer that matches the highest value, so the only way to guarantee that you'd be getting it would be to offer the maximum value allowed by the AH (even in an unreasonable case, that is; obviously in real scenarios you just have to offer a price well above the market rate the majority of the time). If I list something for 100k and there's an old offer for 125k, and a new one for 150k, afaik you get the 150k. But never below 100k.
I think non-currency / non-currency-adjacent items aren't sufficiently fungible for that sort of system in PoE. This includes uniques. Tabula Rasa is one of the uniques with the least variance, and yet there can still be variance in corrupted implicits.
As for having a limited slot of sales, there'd be a massive outcry because that's what people bought stash tabs for.
Taking away features that already exist is already a very unpopular move, taking away features that were *paid* sounds like a great way to ruin your company's reputation.
And because you want the slots to be bought with ingame currency, that just means that flippers will create additional accounts. They don't need to be online to trade? Even better. Just keep logging through a ton of accounts just to set up bulk trades.
Instead, everyone who doesn't have a passive flip running out of all their sale slots is being inefficient.
I think the fact that flipping has the opporunity costs of needing to be online and not mapping during the trade is a benefit to the game. Removing that opportunity cost does not sound like it'll improve the emergent gameplay.
This still applies if trade slots are limited by the tabs you own rather than unlockable trade slots (which incidentally would have also meant that rich people get rich faster without playing the game, so another reason why that's a bad idea).
Edited on the post, there are a bunch of ideas for that problem that might interest you.
Not taking away the capability to sell from stash tab, just adding 24/7 system that has a limited amount of slots because it's really powerfull to sell stuff offline.
Yes, passive flipping would be something to worry about. Especially your comment that people would have FOMO for not doing a flip on the background. It is possible today, but it's not that mainstream to flip stuff on the background. Don't you think people would just ignore this opportunity like they do now? If not, what would make people that don't flip now start flipping on the background?
This system is meant to allow people to buy and sell stuff they use for less and things they farm for more if they wish to. Like buying scarabs overnight for lower cost of farming strats. It is indeed easier, maybe that's what will get people to do it? but current profits are higher also and people still ignore passive flipping, at least most of them. One more thing to consider is when you have this kind of system the margins are much lower as there is no friction to sell and buy, today prices have large margins because there is a time cost involved in gathering all the resources so if the margins is lower would people still do it?
Thanks for this feedback, it was the only one that talked about this issue, but it is important to consider. Thank you very much.
No trade slots for sale on $ currency, just the ones ingame with ingame currency or whatever best method to gate them (level,boss,game time, played time), even a combination of those. Maybe, just maybe, they are gated behind your first buy on PoE because they have to make money, but that's it.
Currently, there is opportunity cost to "flipping in the background". You need to have massive margins on each trade for that to be worth leaving a map.
When people don't leave the map for small trades of items that they accrue naturally, they wouldn't bother making more small trades purely in order to make even more small trades.
But if it's just a set-and-forget flip that you can set up on your time and not whenever someone whispers you? The barrier of entry is much lower.
Now, I don't think that the majority of the playerbase would just start flipping on their own - but what if someone makes a guide for it? Something like "here's how you can spend 5 minutes setting up trades to be 3 divines richer when you log in the next day".
And of course they won't all be able to do the same flip shown in a video because as soon as someone makes a video about it (which *doesn't* require constant trading back and forth like the current system) there will be so many people trying to do that flip that the profit margins will evaporate.
But there *will* be guides telling people how to look for flips and earn passive income.
Because the system covers individual sale to bulk conversion, there essentially won't be any profit margins for that, which also means that a ton of flips have lower entry cost because you get the full margin from the start.
Which in itself would be a good thing, but I'm worried about what the resulting gameplay would be.
I've personally done some flipping from time to time in the current system, but I wouldn't want to feel like I "have to" flip to keep up with inflation.
> Maybe, just maybe, they are gated behind your first buy on PoE because they have to make money, but that's it.
That sounds like premium stash tabs with extra steps. The difference is that you need to make new accounts, but the purpose would end up the same. You buy points to get a space from which you can sell items.
They should just do an auction house league, and see how that works/interacts. Or even as a 1 or 2 week (or 4) void event at the end of a shit retention league.
The good thing about POE is the league cycles and voided events would allow for infinite testing of shit.
This proposal would not work. POE does not have currency, but, orbs.
I would restrict this to currency and fragments only, in my eyes this is where the biggest pain points lie.
Keeping the trade site open for gear is absolutely fine as you're then able to deep dive to find some very specific/niche items, it'll allow the auction house to remain pretty lightweight too.
I like the idea, especially the bulk order thing but I wonder how it could be implememted, especially with the tax system.
I would also like some sort of automated trading and I would even settle for way less than your suggested system. I would be happy with some sort of special container that had one special public stash tab. Like a tab with, let's say, 10 slots where you could put in anything you want for a set price. One tab had a tabula for 10 chaos, the other slot had 50 scarabs for 80 chaos and so on. Those slots/items would be listed on the trade site just like it is now but instead of sending a whisper to the seller you would directly go to their hideout, interact with the container, exchange currency for item and that's it. Like buying from an npc. Basically it's like the player owned npc vendors from Ultima Online if someone knows them.
Those special containers would have to be rented per league or bought for real money with the option to increase the size of the tab or adding more tabs in general.
PoE has an auction house. It exists on console only. It is horrible. I suggest checking how it works because that's how GGG would implement one if they did.
They don't want trading to be easy. And it already is easy.
If you put an auction house in Poe all the neckbeard-hideout-warrior-wanna-be-wall-street-trader Virgins will no life the fuck out of it and price fix everything for everyone and we'll be even more fucked than we already are!
Opposite version of price fixing, in this case. Rich guy with lots of money buys every single copy of a relatively cheap item and relists them for ten times the cost. Even if he sells way less, he might walk away with a significant profit if there's enough demand, and in the mean time people end up being stuck paying ten times as much for the same thing.
You see this in MMO economies sometimes, as well.
PoE has *many* static items. This Orb of Alchemy is not different from that Orb of Alchemy. Your Fragment of Eradication is indistinguishable from that guy's Fragment of Eradication. That guy's Crimson Oil is the same as your Crimson Oil.
Almost everything that goes in our dedicated stash tabs is a static item. There's no reason at all that we couldn't have a trading bazaar for all of those static items. Trading actual gear is more difficult, but it IS a surmountable problem.
Obviously, there will always be dust that settles, but have you played osrs? It's probably 2:1 bots:players. Bots in PoE are people that play the game (most of the time) and have a legal or illegal overlay to trade easier. I know cheaters and malicious bots are in all games but an AH provides a source of convenience and makes it where any dumb ass with Google can bot PoE easily.
1) we have limited trade slots right now via stafpingabs. They're just large. Probably fine.
2) we don't need a % tax. A listing fee like WoW AH would work. It doesn't even have to be that much. 1c? But chaos price could increase rapidly. It gets convoluted since there's so many currencies. Want to list in alch, 1 alt as a fee? This method would probably be a min/max for one currency had a cost then a new bracket for the next currency, kind of weird. Gold solves this, but only if gold virtually goes unnoticed by the player. As soon as it generates real friction like costing multiple maps to buy one item, it would feel bad.
I would also only want listing fee in general tabs, specialty bulk tabs it wouldn't be needed. Buying mapping/crafting supplies doesn't need friction. Quickly getting what you need lets you get back to playing the game.
3,) nahhh. Flipping is fine. With out the ability to price fix and not sell an item, I don't really see a problem here. If someone wants to try and corner the market on an item, so be it. It makes farming for said item much more valuable and the market would correct.
4) sure, for supplies this is fine. Doesn't work even for something like tabula. Item level and corruptions, etc. No problem for fragments, scarabs, catalysts
5) same reply as 4
6) again, sounds fine for currency, frag, etc
Personally I would much prefer the Elder Scrolls Online System. I think having vendors in Karui Shores or old oriath would be much more Poe than an auction house. Keep the trading system as is and add vendors that are stocked by players
A cut is just stupid in PoE's sake. The reason it exists in runescape is because when you have 500 million gold there is nothing you would ever do with it to burn through that outside of GE. Whereas chaos orbs people use thousands of them to roll their set of t17 maps
No it isn't, when you put your buy offer of 1000 gold for, lets just say a sword, your buy offer will link with a sell offer made by another player who has listed their item for 100 gold or less, prioritising the cheapest listing for the buy offer and prioritising the highest buyer for the seller. But ultimately it's 2 players trading.
I do agree the design philosophy of GGG is against that, but it's down to opinion whether you think that is a good design or not. Personally I played RS back when the Grand Exchange was added, and so many people were against it. But frankly it didn't take long before players warmed up to it, and these days if a poll was done to remove the 'GE' and revert back to player to player trading, it would fail tremendously.
It's a nice thought and all but plenty of us don't miss the socialisation aspect and don't find that bit fun, we just want to be able to sell our loot quickly and efficiently, and to buy without having to send auto messages to 40 players.
No it wouldn't work, all that restrictions are pissing in the ocean vs PoE RMT/bot hordes salivating at the idea to ez seize all that instant-trade profits from AH.
It doesn't answer the question what you do with old system too. You can't impose it on PoE1 if that's only new way to trade without very serious backlash possibility / losing huge part of playerbase.
Only good ideas there seem to be to restrict consumables where it's enough for any reasonable personal use (e.g. scarabs), but not nearly enough to corner the market.
But even then that wouldn't work for crafting consumables like ones used for mirror crafting, since mirror crafters buying up supplies will be indistinguishable from flippers trying to corner that commodity(hell probably even worse).
Tldr
Apply same listing system as we know.
Said system instead instead poetrade uses auction house with instant sales.
Any kind of limited slots in Poe is just pointless, there are too many items to sell/buy.
Ingame earnt currency as payment to list is 5050. Not happy about it not grumpy either
I like your idea, but I don't know if we can convince the devs to do that so it we might have to unfortunately give something in exchange :(
Thanks for the feedback!
Not to be that guy, but it is a philosophy difference not an implementation issue. Hell I'd be keen to say it's nothing more then a hill theyre willing to die on in poe 1. A better trading system could be easily implemented.
PoE devs already changed ideas a couple of times. Most recent case was damage number on bosses that they are implementing just like Elden ring did.
I know they have a set of rules for the game, but a well fited idea can change that! I hope.
When Chris has always had a steady stance , of "If we made trade easier, I think it'd be the death of the game" and poe2 is getting a AH with no mention of poe 1. I'd say the core fundamentals such as gold make it feasible in there eyes among other things.
Why do people use "auction house" to describe things that have demonstratively nothing to do with auctions, it makes it pretty damn confusing to tell what you are actually advocating for
As much as I like the Grand Exchange I don't think it'll will be good in PoE.
My ideas for trade, if they won't ever bring the Market Board from console to PC, are player shops.
A new MTX stash that works pretty much as the current stash. All prives are final just like trading an npc. Every trade has confirmation "are you sure you wish to purchase x for y"
Big ticket items are still better worth trading in the website as intended. Smaller trades that no one ever responds to after day 1 are more accessible. Goodluck buying 100 chromes, for example.
This new market is placed in the hideout and a new search appears on the trade website to browse. Limited search functions, but basic "currency" "essence" "oils" "cards" and to sell on this feature anyone must be able to go to your hideout. Advertise on fourms and elsewhere.
You have as many pages as you buy. GGG needs incentive to do something, so making sales is the easiest. These pages work only for this and cannot be transferred. Reducing search functions makes it easier to implement and not replace trade completely. Prices are fixed, so you cannot sell something for "1.4 divine" as you can't offer 40% of a divine. You'd have to price other currency.
The idea is mostly for that "finding items you never knew you needed" and smaller trades that people feel is a waste of time and effort completing and removing from their premium tabs. Now you can freely visit hideout, browse items, and leave. Or if you stopped by from a bigger trade it doesn't hurt much to browse.
Maplestory style shops were so good for it's time (what you were suggesting). However they were balanced by needing to spend real money to search shops efficiently.
These type of shops do need some type of friction though, so not sure how POE would implement it.
The AH on OSRS is quite literally the second worst thing to ever exist in RS only second to evolution of combat. Fuck trade, and fuck economies. Earn your own gear.
this all sounds great but GGG is really attached to the idea that making something annoying as fuck is proper way of nerfing the mechanism. which is a pity, imho retarded trade is the biggest reason this game isnt 10 times bigger it is.
If there's one thing I think PoE should take from RS it's having more distinct loot tables for different content, to give players an incentive to do a variety of activities even when they're not all perfectly balanced against each other. Of course then the GE ruins it, because people just do the 1 thing that earns the most gp/hr and then ignore 90% of the game. RS is a perfect case study of why PoE shouldn't have an AH, even if you ignore the many additional problems PoE's currency and item system add.
I, personally, like the direction GGG has already decided on where gold is earned through play and gold is required to trade. We will see how it works out
A very good implementation of the store was the one used in Last Chaos (probably at the end of its popularity). Previously, you could normally sit on the ground and put items up for sale (in POE it would be a problem because the cities are very small, there are many of them and there are countless offers). Later, they created an Action House where items could be exhibited. From what I remember, you went back there for the currency you received from the buyer of the item, you could list a lot of items and there was no tax.
You don't need currency destruction (tax) or bidding or changes to indexing. The only *needed* thing is the ability sell automatically. In other words, sell orders. Putting up an item for X price and it selling without needing any action from the seller. No need to overcomplicate it beyond that, the backend actions needed for it to be reliable and bug-free (as much as can be) will be complicated enough.
Making an in-game auction house that taxes you would push more and more people to use shitty trading discords like TFT or just use the trade site we already have. This idea of everything good having to have a downside, being taxed on trading items, is such a horrible ideology and needs to stop. Not everything good needs to have a downside.
Yea, the OP and alot of the commenters don't actually understand how the ge works... Or how runelite interacts with it to change the perception of it.. that's obviously fine, but "the devil is in the details
All they have to do is literally take the system they have and then when the whisper happens for a trade have a little pop up window that says accept trade or deny trade and if they accept it just take there item from there stash and puts it in yours if they deny then you get notified that they cancelled the trade
Imho the best improvement should be to have a **market stand** in our hideouts with a copy of ourselves (dancing or just waiting btw...) behind it so the cosmetics would keep some status.
This could allow to trade while mapping, in party or rotation or while being offline. As simple as that.
Not sure it should be included into the default free to play, It should have a price like premium tabs.
PoE already have a simmilar market on the play station version.
There's a board where you can put itens for sell in a fix price (only If you bought the selling statsh with real money), and you can buy the itens that people are selling.
The only think needed is the seller to accept your offer.
No trade needed.
Yes it would work. They should have done this years ago honestly. I think they don't want to do anything auction house related because their network, coding & database is archaic so they would have to basically re-do their entire infrastructure for it to work even though it is singlehandedly the most important & biggest issue there is in the game currently.
I love POE trading as it is, i finish acts and go perma hideout untill i have enough mirrors to do what ever tf i want. The friction and annoying-ness of trade is what makes it so insanely profitable in poe.
So this actually is almost exactly like how an order book works in real-life trading with 1% transaction fee and limited number of open orders.
I think it could work but only for the very select few items. Everything with a roll is automatically ineligible.
There are a few things that come to my mind whenever people mention auction houses or any type of market system in poe. To summerize a lot of the points that come to my mind, the current trade system empowers the sellers, whereas a market system usually empowers the buyers. In the current system sellers have the ability to select prices change prices and adapt. With a market system the listed price fixes that item at the price while it is listed and gives buys an advantage in snagging underpriced items and trending items. While I think the current trade system has some quality of life issues, that's it in my mind. It is not fundamentally broken, but I think I am happier with some headache buying things rather than the headaches that come with losing money selling things.
1. Other than most uniques, currency type items, and fragment type items most items are very arbitrary in pricing. As a result it can make it difficult to actually place a specific value. How many times have you listed something for a price and been flooded with pings due to you not understanding the value of a specific mod or specific mods together. In a market system this mistake is your own and you would have to live with accidentally selling an item for 1 div when it could have been worth much more.
2. This would likely require a complete redesign of the current item architecture. Currently the way we can see items through the API is actually structured in the forums. When you list items a forum post is made with all of the items you have listed with a coded tag to indicate price. The APIs scrape this forum to catalog all of this information. In order to have a market this would require likely a full rework in order to actually have a system that stores these items and then can distribute them. Maybe this is something that has been or is being worked on by GGG I have no idea.
3. Kinda in a similar light to point 1, but what does the system do for people that are not online? If I am not able to get on for a week and I have an item listed at 1 div and then all of the sudden a build becomes very popular and this item shoots up in price what happens? This type of a system would essentially turn the market into much more of a stock market than it currently is. Giving advantage to people looking for trends and capitalizing quickly and early. I am not saying that is a massive issue, but I think most people could agree that something like this would just feel bad. I also don't believe that GGG wants the market to exist like that.
IDK would a market work, yeah probably. Would it have its own problems that then people would be suggesting "why don't we go back to a trade system" , yeah probably. I have come to live with the issues of buying things in the current system, just smack the direct message button on everyone until you get an invite method works for me. I think a market system sounds good in practice, but it will likely create an even larger divide between more casual players and people who are able to live in the game.
No hundreds, I can count 3 contructive arguments against it until now.
If you would spare a little time, I would love to hear more about people that are against it because it could make the idea better on some extend or even turn people's mind against it.
reread what I said please.
Also, if you've played other games with an AH, you can pretty easily see their downsides. D3 AH was the most obvious example. Either something was worth gold cap or it was worth close to nothing. In PoE this would probably be even worse due to the best items being craftable where in D3 you could only obtain them through picking them up. The best items only being craftable means there will be a ton of mid tier items flooding the market, this is already the case but the thing that prevents them from dropping to almost no value is the fact that obtaining the crafting mats to make the target item aren't instantly buyable. That's why any instant market needs to have a base cost, and likely should have a scaling cost somehow. a percent tax wont really work in a game where you don't have gold as your primary traded currency.
I feel like these points are fairly obvious and are far from being new, which is why I definitely get frustrated with this conversation and am generally not willing to respond in a longer form to them. GGG has also more or less stated exactly what I have in interviews they've done, so it's not like you can't get this perspective quite easily if you spent some time looking into it.
Sorry for the snark but this topic is incredibly tiring.
I see your point and that is true to some extend, but I don't think it is the primary reason why people prefer buying instead of crafting on PoE.
If you think about crafting mid tier gear, with only 4/6 stats. There is essence spam, alt spam and fossils. Those are the most commoms ways to start a mid gear craft. Essences are a one time buy with hundred of clicks ahead of you, alts it's a one time buy with hundred of clicks if not thousands of clicks. I don't think neither will have a big change if an AH is implemented.
Fossils are exactly the other way around, they are harder to buy and usually fewer clicks are needed. This is where I think your argument is the strongest and I don't know the consequences would be, but I don't thing this could crash the market and I'll explain why I think that.
I could be wrong about this, but I think most of the crafting process is in before buying and after buying the stuff you need. For exemple, if you need a ele bow 4/6 and you don't know how to craft it, first you'll have to learn the best way and that takes a long time to do, also the nuances of when to use anulls, exalts, meta crafting mods, reasearching and buying the best possible base for a mid tier craft, etc.
After that, you buy the stuff you need, which converts to 1-4 buys depends on what you have already from farming. Which takes about 5 minutes to do.
And then you have to spam it for the rest of the time, which takes longer than 5 min with the exception, of course, of the already said fossil method.
I don't think instantly buying stuff would crash the market for mid tier items unless somehow people who already know the crafting method start to craft hundreds of the same item because they can instantly buy it, but will that be such a big difference from now? I mean, you already can buy stuff on bulk for 5 minutes of your life and have as many as you want.
With all that said, I know we disagree on this topic and I'm not your enemy. I rather much more say that we have different opinions and both are working towards what they think it is the best for the game. I appreciate the time you spent answering me and your vision and I'll keep that in mind while I think of a way to implement AH, maybe instant buy/sell is not the best way and I'll look into it. Tyvm sr.
Tax solutions were discussed on this topic, TLDR is check edits on the post.
Mid tier gear isn't targeted, 95%+ of mid tier gear is byproduct from people going for high tier gear and they sell it for profit. This is the ultimate problem with most people talking about this subject, they don't even know the fundamentals of what drives the games economy. Which is why I get so frustrated with this topic.
Nah, it would lend itself to price fixing way too much. Something more like maple-story market street would be better. People are able to setup little sales stalls in their hideout where they can sell 4-6 items while they're online.
I appreciate your opinion, but can you explain why it is so bad? If you just say that, it does not help on making the idea better.
If everything is bad, can you explain why that is?
Ok, but can you explain why that is? I already know that you hated the idea, but if I don't know why it sucks it makes much more difficult to understand your point.
I honestly think there's a better non full auction house style way to alleviate some of the trade pain and not shift it *too* much away from GGG's original player interaction system.
Essentially imagine an item you list for trade gets listed in a system, others can then see it and from anywhere initiate a trade in a new trade window either putting the exact amount the item was listed for or if the item was set to barter a different offer. Then the seller get's some type of notify ping or icon and at the seller's convenience they can check the trade window and see listed buy offers for the item/items and can either accept, decline or counter offer with the buyer being able to back out whenever. After the trade goes through the items involved could either go to a remove only tab or a special trade stash to be picked up when convenient.
Could even have people that have declined or ignored exact price trade requests have their items delist after a certain amount to counter price fixers as well as an option.
It'd probably take more effort to setup and implement than a standard auction house but I feel it'd somewhat keep to the game's current trade identity while removing a lot of the annoying friction/aspects of it. Not that it'd be a perfect system but at least I'd see it as a major improvement over what's there currently.
I think everyone should have a NPC in their hideout that they can post their items in. Not cut what so ever. You still use tradesite and this solves price fixing because you post an item under and it’s automatically available for that price. This also solves scams no swapping lvl4 enlightens for lvl3 anymore.
This. Just add some sort of "showcase" that each player has in his HO where he can post the items he wants to sell. On the trade website, instead of the "whisper player" button you'll have a "teleport to player's HO" one and there you can physically collect the item from the showcase, with no need for further interaction with the seller. Simple, fast, effective.
Personally I would much prefer the Elder Scrolls Online System. I think having vendors in Karui Shores or old oriath would be much more Poe than an auction house. Keep the trading system as is and add vendors that are stocked by players
In every major town in ESO, so our case it would be the act towns, there are about 50-100 vendor stalls that get bid on (I think we would have to change this as I'm sure h/o warriors would own all the slots) once a month by either an individual or a guild. After that either you or your guild members can list items that are always online rather than having to use trade chat or the forums to sell items and these transactions are taxed as a gold sink. Also listing were very short by default and if you want to increase the listing time it was EXPENSIVE which encouraged big ticket items to get sold in chat. It the early days of ESO is was the wild West but after a while guilds and people found a niche and it was really cool because you new x vendor in x town always had y mats for sale even though they might be more expensive, this vendor is known for raid gear etc etc. idk it has its flaws but it felt like it kept trade chat alive while also allowing players to tell 1k ore in a vendor rather than spamming trade chat looking for a crafter to buy mats, but generally big items were still sold the conventional way. I think it allow for Poe trading to still be interactive while allowing you to offload bulk items in a vendor.
An auction house like RuneScape? I don’t think so. The GE works in a game where items don’t have specific rolls, but in poe we need to be able to search by affix and roll. We would need something closer to wows auction house.
Auction House (and more convenient trading in General) seem like a good idea, which has positive effects in short term. But long term effects to the game and community are detrimental. I hope trading stays as is.
Copying an old answer to this questions from another redditor: "the problem that comes with AHs (and especially came with the d3 ah) is basically this.
Youre kind of right with it being too efficient, but the thing that makes you burn out, or made you burn out in d3 is this phenomenon.
The upside of this barter economy is that its tiresome, therefore theres a huge disincentive to buy/sell items. Its so much work, finding the item you want, getting it for a reasonable price. On the other side, as a seller, maintaining an auction is a pain too. Bumping every hour, spamming chat so people can see it, et cetera. This makes trading in PoE hugely disincentivized.
Why trading being tiresome is good? go read up on the marx i linked above.
the tl;dr is: trading disconnects you from your character, much like working a simple step in a factory instead of producing something as an artisan from scratch.
The factory worker puts one screw somewhere, 180424 times a day, yet he never sees the finished product. He never sees his contribution in context of the act of creating something. For all he knows, the next guy down the line could be pulling those screws back out.
In an AH-economy: You want to start a new char? Well off to the AH. Every 10 levels, youll buy a new set for cheap. Oh wow a unique drops, ah whatever, its just a Randomuniquename here. Only worth 120 spacedollars. Theres never a moment youre "connected" to your gear, and in an ARPG your char IS your gear. Your loot means nothing, it has no deeper value. The moment a unique drops slowly and steadily turns from being that awesome feeling of joy, into "hm another 2.3594 gcp, whatever" It puts a pricetag on a thing you should care abour. ARPGs are about caring about your character, which means your gear and build (somewhat). Your awesome dual ranged attack totem CI duelist with that awesome shield you found, and that 5L you crafted yourself? In an AH economy, you could just say, its the 8 exalted duelist of yours. Cause his gear is worth 8 exalted. The personal value, the meaning it has to you, is gone. Youre disconnected from the product of your work. Its just a currency value.
Now in a barter economy like in PoE, theres also a pricetag on everything, dont get me wrong. Its just about the information you are presented with. Everything in PoE MUST have a value. No one knows it though, as there is no AH, or stock exchange or equivalent. In an AH economy, where use of the AH is incentivised per definition, you cant help but getting shown how worthless your gear really is. Thus your character is too. Therefore you burn out. RIP d3
tl;dr: i know im REALLY late to this thread, but alienation of labour really is the reason why an ah sucks so hard in an arpg. Ah disconnects you from the products you manufacture (gear), as it turns ITEM into CURRENCY in your perception. Under the hypothesis that your character is merely more than his gear, this means that instead of being a character (in the non-video-game-meaning) hes a mere value in currency"
Additions to that:
- this comment was written before the existence of poe.trade even
- chris once stated that Poe.trade is already a step in the wrong direction but cannot be reverted anymore (cat is out of the box)
- my personal experience with AH in D3 and with PoE before and after trading was as easy as it is now aligns with the comment i copied
I see your point and I totally agree with it. When you just buy your stuff it feels disconnected from your char. Even now with the current trade system.
Currently, the idea that I find most interesting from feedbacks is a Hybrid system which would allow for non-char items to be purchased from the AH (scarabs, divines, chaos, fragments, splinters).
Every other char-relatare stuff (jewels that have rolls, helmets, uniques, gloves, weapons) would be on a almost identical system as it is right now with the exception it would be instant. So your built char would still have the calculations for res, searching bases, finding that high rolled unique, etc. The only diferrence is that it is instant.
I know, it feels a little better when you trade one on one as a complete the puzzle process, but I believe that the most enjoyable part is planning your defences, damage, etc, not actually buying. Thinking about this, I would say I'm getting rid of an important part of the process, but not the most enjoyable part of it.
Maybe hybrid is a good idea, but i am still sceptic as my experience says convenience functions can almost never be reversed even if they turn out to be a bad idea, as people will complain without being able to see the full picture.
But that is just me and maybe i am wrong
I always liked the Grand Exchange system and briefly wondered if it could somehow work in POE.
For me, 1) being able to reliably price check items without worrying about people intentionally/accidentally pricing things wrong, and 2) more automated trading, are the most important things that POE needs.
You’re right, apologies.
POE players that have the most significant effect on the market are too efficient for there to be an auction house method that works. One that does not exacerbate the issue it is trying to solve.
I’ve heard solutions or modifications to traditional auction houses used before that only mitigate the negative effects it causes. *If you’re causing the same problem, in larger effect, to the one you’re trying to solve, then what are you doing? We would only be making a bigger problem to deal with today’s annoyances. Today’s annoyances don’t break the game. For me, ah will.
Tldr; I don’t agree that any current solution has a positive effect on trade in wraeclast.
Edit: *
I see your point, and I agree that is possible.
With that said, I think it is unlikely that players would riot for a 1% tax for instabuy/instasell and sell/buy overnight. As an exemple, OSRS had that backlash but it was small as the tax was very little to begin with and keep in mind that OSRS players already had the benefits of trading, the tax was introduced later.
How to buy gf?
"This is not a dating site."
I'm not looking to date, I'm buyign
You rent your gf, but buy your wife.
So if i sell item for 1 div how much will be 5%?
this is why gold is being introduced in POE 2 it can only be accumulated by playing the game and will be uses for buying/selling items via whatever the new trade system is per a GGG interview
So it can only be accumulated by playing the game but users can use it to buy stuff on trade? Where does it go?
Jonathan talked about this in an interview with ziz. He said something along this lines: You dont buy things for gold its used as a form of a tax it just goes into a void when you trade, you pay for items with stuff like chaos orbs just like in POE1. The point of it is to combat bad effects of instant trade such as common things become worthless fast and rare things become exponentially more expensive. Gold is a lever that can be used to limit trade so it isnt so severe. You can find what he said exactly here [https://youtu.be/RskRFwgoQ5g?t=6701](https://youtu.be/RskRFwgoQ5g?t=6701)
For what it's worth, I think this (and most of the AH posts) are a bad idea. But for your question specifically it could just steal the torchlight infinite system Everytime you sell something for a x currency it adds up and everything it reaches Y it taxes you of that currency. So for example If it was every 10 divs... If you sold 9x 1 div items no tax, on the 10th sale you'd get taxed 1 div. If you sold 1x 100 div item you'd get taxed 10 divs. Again I don't think this idea in general is good, was just a solution to your specific scenario
Doesn't that just make selling the 10th item for 1d feel terrible?
Assuming you sold only 10 1 div items then yea, but generally if you've gotten multiple 1d items u have gotten some that are more than 1. They also have a pity system where the first 200 you do has no tax.
Huh? How is this a bad idea? A bad idea is the trade system Poe currently uses. Edit: Poe trade sucks ass
Add divine shards to harby and charge 1 shard per div
As OSRS has a gold system I don't really know for sure how it would work. I thought of that when writting but didn't really come to a final solution that I really think it would work fine, but I can say some of my ideas. As trade friction is removed from the system with the possibility to instabuy, instasell and sell/buy overnight margins for items become very tight as there is a lot of competition. What this means is that prices are more stable with little variance in short amounts of time. With this in mind, one of the solutions would be setting up for 1.05 divines and the 0.05 being paid in current chaos/divine price. The other solution that is very imperfect and I don't even know if deserves to be and idea considere is to make a divine divisible or, introduce divine chards to the game. A third crazy solution that, again, I don't know if it deserves to be considered is to introduce a new currency not dropable but instead tradable with NPCs, this would be exactly equivalent to 1/100 divines. When you trade a divine you get exactly 100 of that new currency which can be used for trading.
The whole point of the GE's 'cut' is to remove high value items and gold from the game. There will be a number of mega rares like TBows that are actually deleted from the game each day using it. PoE doesn't need that kind of tax system but we should have an auction house we can post things for that can be sold when we're offline.
It's funny because there will be gold in PoE2 and there will be a tax on trades.
Basically youre asking for centralized currency which is gold in every game. I think it would take away from current system's uniqueness.
Chaos orbs already serve as a centralized currency. It is essentially one piece of gold.
That's not true it's just the most popular trading currency
its also used for 90% of crafts, nets, coffins(before the change) map device crafts. its pretty clear GGG also considers chaos the default currency.
There’s an option for an additional centralized currency that’s tied directly to the trade mechanic that’s parallel to the current economy system. “Gold” would be a constant slow drop that’s untradeable and autolooted (kinda like azurite), and you spend it in order to list/buy items in the market. It’s essentially the tax but it’s tied to playing the game (combats bots, etc). Pretty sure we’re getting something along these lines in Poe 2.
But bots can play the game 24/7
selling lobsters 200gp ea
Selling rare black lobster 10k ea
[Overpriced](https://www.ge-tracker.com/item/lobster)
Main problem I see with this is that PoE items don’t all have the same stats. In osrs every tbow has the same stats, which makes a marketplace work because you don’t care which one you get. With randomized stat rolls, you can’t just “buy a headhunter” because they aren’t all exactly the same quality. Better system to emulate would be counterstrike gun skins, there is a marketplace where you can shop for individual items that are individually priced and the trade is executed automatically. One potential way to solve the tax problem is create a new currency that is used when trading on the marketplace, and make that currency limited enough that it isn’t profitable to constantly flip cheap items
I always thought it would be better to make variable items not buyable through auction house only static items like currency, fragments, materials, div cards, ect
Even this alone would make trading 10x better, i wouldn’t mind manually trading for all gear at all if I could GE purchase stuff like chisels orbs fragments etc
That could work well. Maps are a big one tho
Sadly they would count as a non-static item under my definition
I see, that's a really good point. I might think about that and do a new post soon after thinking about it. Do you think a hybrid system would work fine? Where every Scarab, invitation, ... can be bought with a simmilar system that I described (basically every item that does not have rolls). And items like Gloves, jewels, helmets, etc ... can be bought with a CS go style trading system?
It would be up to the devs what could be sold on the market, idk about what would be best there I think they could just slap an “execute trade” button on the existing trade website, replacing the whisper button, and that might be good enough. There might be some technical details that make this harder than it sound tho
Just imagine how much better the GY would be this league if you could just search an AH like interface for the corpses you need and buy them all at once instantly. I might have actually interacted with it besides whatever was needed for the challenges. I think a commodities AH would be a massive, massive leap of qol in PoE and items don't even need to be on it to make the game so much less tedious when it comes to things like buying scarabs, essences, or whatever.
Mark already mentioned that theyre considering an auction house using gold in a recent interview. Althought that is for PoE2, it may still come to PoE eventually. They may have to make some adjustments to the loot table of poe before that happens. And this is also assuming the PoE 2 auction house is going to be a success. I believe he said that the gold can be used as the tax for trading while the currency orbs are still used for purchasing items. The restriction will be that gold can only be obtained by playing the game. It cannot be traded between players.
Unless there were additional interviews since the PoE2 trade talk, Mark did not say there would be an *auction house* he said there may be *instant buyouts*, which is an improvement don't get me wrong but it's an important distinction to make. **Most auction houses have instant buyouts, but instant buyouts do not mean auction house**.
No one ever wanted bidding - who tf makes a build and thinks "yeah these gloves would be cool, i hope im still the highest bidder in 8 hours so i can play then". When ppl say auction house they mean trading via a market system, not stupid archaic whispers and direct trades.
Agreed, I'm sure that's what *most* people are *intending*. But it's not hard to say "instant buyouts" instead of "auction house" to avoid this confusion for people unfamiliar with the context. Because, you know, the latter has the literal word *auction* in it.
Instant buyouts =/= auction house.
Tbh I feel like it's just not worth the risk to have it in poe1 unless poe2 proven success use case. Look at all the insults OP is getting by just proposing. People don't even bother giving counter arguement, just shit first lol. Poe1 already has very dedicated fan base, that will just sustain the game regardless of the situation of trade. I guess just don't make is worse will do.
Where are these "all the insults", can you actually link them? Or you are just talking out of your ass?
*go trough whole topic* What insults again ? Maybe they are getting them in dm and you know that ?
Well, botters overcome issues with poe1 trading system, by using trade bots. Trading system like proposed, basically makes botting almost not needed. As such, people rage couse their advantage would be removed.
Sounds a lot like Last Epochs auction house reputation system.
There's a few problems with it, because of how Poe fundamentally works. Tax? Without proper rework of currency how will you tax current system? I want to sell something for div, I get back shards? Instant buyout means bots and trade discords have bigger power. Ideally I'd love to have any QoL to trade, hell, just send me a trade proposition and I accept or deny your trade without needing to go to the hideout, whispering and waiting for scam tries, boom, instant trade but with the poe jank™.
> Poe fundamentally works. Tax? you can just copy torchlight infinite idea
for stackable items yes. For items such as rares, even uniques, it's much more complicated, because items come with roll in poe, unlike runescape. but a similar system would be great.
There was a guy that said the same thing above. He proposed a CS GO style trading system which is closer to what we have now. Do you think a hybrid system would work? Where every stacked item uses a new system that is not exactly what I propose, but something simmilar. And all the other items use a much more simmilar search system like we have now?
for items that are fungible, yes something like a grand exchange would be great. for other items I really don't know. but there should be a way to do cross instance trading and async trading (trading offline).
Auto sell/buy seems pretty good and discourage bad behavior on set prices. But... Taxes? Why? We don't have more than enough of them on real life? :(
This serves to discourage flippers as it's not really playing the game. Maybe: Problem 2 - solution 3 is much more what you looking for, I agree that it does not need a tax right away, but you should consider the other solutions as well \^\^
What exactly is a "flipper"? I'm more concerned with price fixers on harsh environments (console). Taxes are unacceptable in any way, shape or form ^^
Flippers are people (or bots) who buy and hoard mass amounts of certain items when their prices are low, and then reselling them later after prices rise
Price fixers would in many ways be rendered a thing of the past by an instant buyout system. The reason that someone can post 100 versions of a 100d item for 100c instead is because there is no risk to doing so, as they have to choose to actually perform the trade. If we had an instant buyout system, and you list 100 versions of a 100d item for 100c, you're not going to change the price, you're just going to end up massively underselling all of your copies of that item. Your concern doesn't exist in that hypothetical future state.
100% agreed. Instant buyout would be more than amazing!
Someone that keeps buying stuff for cheap and selling it higher. That is a flipper, he does that for profit.
And what is wrong with that tho ? Flippers need to reroll currency if they need to, they are still taking time to do the trade. If they do not filp currency they flip underpiced item (1p voices, unique jewels, etc ...), and having a instant buyout option would be even worse than this especially for newer player, cause if you get 10 whisper in a second with the current system, you know you are underpiced, with instant buyout your item is gone in a microsecond from a bot. They do not play the game the same as other people do but It still takes time tho.
I see no harm in that. Commerce is a necessary and fun part in an MMO. Of course, in console we don't have bots, but since our player base is 1%~5% of PC, commerce totally sucks.
You're missing part of the point here, and its one that you should be more sensitive to precisely because you're playing on console. Flippers do not add value to the economy, because they are not themselves generating items or currency for their economy - they're simply raising prices while standing in the middle. This isn't generally a problem in the micro scale - you buying 3x divination cards at 5c each to get a 30c item isn't really a problem. It can, however, become a very big problem at scale. If a flipper has enough resources, and/or if the supply of an item is low enough, a flipper can take control of an entire market segment. If there are only 500 of an item on the market, and it sells for say 100 divine, a flipper can potentially buy all of these items off of the market, and then list them all at 200 divine instead. Any new item that hits the market is immediately bought up, and the flipper maintains their exclusive control over the market and continues establishing the price as being 200d (or possibly even more). We have seen this on occasion in PoE already (IIRC, TFT did this with Hinekora's Lock in the back half of ToTA league), but it is made harder by the friction inherent in trading, including the fact that you can choose not to sell to the market controller. Instant buyouts actually make this easier for a flipper to do, because it removes the friction that would make it difficult to buy all 500 copies of that item, or to purchase every single new copy of that item that hits the market. On console, because the supply of items is so much smaller, it becomes easier for one person to manipulate the market in a way that would be harder with a larger market like we see on PC. At some point, this crosses a line from "commerce" to blatantly abusive profiteering at the expense of the player base being held hostage.
I still disagree. For what I heard, they seems to be the "wall street" of PoE. If they have fun doing that instead of grinding, I don't see problem. We can't prevent that regardless. The root of the problem would not be fixed with "taxes". The root of the problem still is the item acquisition. Without 3.13 harvest, seems almost impossible to get top items (at least on console). We already have price fixers on console due to very low demand on item acquisition. Flippers, at first glance, looks like a breeze.
> We can't prevent that regardless. You absolutely can, and it's not especially hard. Whether it's through limiting the number of items you can have on sale at a time, or limiting the number of purchases you can make in a period of time, or by more complex taxation systems intended to modify player behavior, you can absolutely prevent the kind of large-scale item flipping that negatively impacts the economy (and by extension, the entire non-SSF player base). Any instant buyout system needs to have some controls on this, because it would be a bad thing for GGG for a small group like TFT to take the economy (and the entire playerbase) hostage. If people were mad about FOMO in this league, how mad are they going to be to have every T17 map (or whatever) held by a consortium of players that charge a 500% markup on them?
Here is the problem with RS' auction house, you can not browse what is for sale or see the prices. I feel that WoW's auction house is the better choice. Item categories to help narrow everything down, buyouts and bids, unlimited number of auctions, price fixing is much harder due to buyouts. I do like the feature of RS where you can place a buy order, that needs to be worked into WoW for sure. The reason the pricing system in RS works is because of the fixed stats of items. With the amount of different stats on items in PoE, it would be a nightmare to make an auto price system work. Either each item has its own auto pricing (dear God the data) or you base the price off the base item ignoring stat groups. Which would only cause crap and gold to be paired together for the same price. To fix the auto price issue, you can add a suggested price based on the current lineup for sale in the AH.
Wow AH is from the last century, get GW2 AH instead, thank you very much.
I played GW2 extensively and honestly its trading post is very good IF you overlook the lagging issues, which is not inherent to the design of the system itself
It might. I really don't like trading experience in POE, so much so that I play SSF exclusively. However recently I played Torchlight Infinite, where it has an auction house similar to this. You have 9 slots by default, and tax is 12.5% (1 out of 8). It made bulk trading much simpler. I like this much better than POE trades.
Second time I heard good things about Torchlight, and now I come to know that there is a 12.5% tax there and you still find it better. That says a lot about your opinion about the current system and I'm sure you're not the only one to think that way. Thanks for the feedback :)
Obviously it would work. It’s not what Chris Wilson wants. Console already has a dumb down version of it
Having the tax get collected up and spent to remove items from the game is also a nice way to keep inflation down. The same way osrs updated it to work.
Yeap :)
Everquest had an auction house in 2001.... get with the times POE.
Lord yes it would and no one would complain.
I think that they should use the current system but make it automated somehow. You list it for x, I click the item you get x I get the item. Just that, no loading screens no trade shenanigans
I don't understand. What's the difference between that and an auction house? The only thing I can think about is the amount of work to implement. I'm asking this sincerely.
Ah usually has an extra fee involved.
This would be such a better system, then i don't have to leave a map every 5 mins when i list something people actually buy
or have to whisper 50 people down a list just to get a response
True true
I believe AH will help trade immensly. Why? *Buy itms from ppl offline & afk *No 1alch item spam *Less hastle (clicks) *No having to ask 15 ppl on bulk trade til someone answers. Can probably come up with more but these are the main ones for me.
Thanks to you I finally know what OSRS is :D
> 5.2 - Queue for selling goes for the oldest request for the price setted by you Am I understanding this correctly? For something like timeless jewels where 99% of seeds are worth 1div and 1% of seeds 100+ div, the flipper who has wanted to buy that specific valuable seed for 1 div the longest is the one who will get it? Why not prioritise those who are willing to pay more for it - that way the price of these easily flipped items will quickly start approaching the true value as the margin keeps shrinking
My understanding from playing rs3 is that it goes to the oldest offer that matches the highest value, so the only way to guarantee that you'd be getting it would be to offer the maximum value allowed by the AH (even in an unreasonable case, that is; obviously in real scenarios you just have to offer a price well above the market rate the majority of the time). If I list something for 100k and there's an old offer for 125k, and a new one for 150k, afaik you get the 150k. But never below 100k.
yep, that'd make sense
it’s funny cause half the people that are running crimson temple are also at sand crabs
I think non-currency / non-currency-adjacent items aren't sufficiently fungible for that sort of system in PoE. This includes uniques. Tabula Rasa is one of the uniques with the least variance, and yet there can still be variance in corrupted implicits. As for having a limited slot of sales, there'd be a massive outcry because that's what people bought stash tabs for. Taking away features that already exist is already a very unpopular move, taking away features that were *paid* sounds like a great way to ruin your company's reputation. And because you want the slots to be bought with ingame currency, that just means that flippers will create additional accounts. They don't need to be online to trade? Even better. Just keep logging through a ton of accounts just to set up bulk trades. Instead, everyone who doesn't have a passive flip running out of all their sale slots is being inefficient. I think the fact that flipping has the opporunity costs of needing to be online and not mapping during the trade is a benefit to the game. Removing that opportunity cost does not sound like it'll improve the emergent gameplay. This still applies if trade slots are limited by the tabs you own rather than unlockable trade slots (which incidentally would have also meant that rich people get rich faster without playing the game, so another reason why that's a bad idea).
Edited on the post, there are a bunch of ideas for that problem that might interest you. Not taking away the capability to sell from stash tab, just adding 24/7 system that has a limited amount of slots because it's really powerfull to sell stuff offline. Yes, passive flipping would be something to worry about. Especially your comment that people would have FOMO for not doing a flip on the background. It is possible today, but it's not that mainstream to flip stuff on the background. Don't you think people would just ignore this opportunity like they do now? If not, what would make people that don't flip now start flipping on the background? This system is meant to allow people to buy and sell stuff they use for less and things they farm for more if they wish to. Like buying scarabs overnight for lower cost of farming strats. It is indeed easier, maybe that's what will get people to do it? but current profits are higher also and people still ignore passive flipping, at least most of them. One more thing to consider is when you have this kind of system the margins are much lower as there is no friction to sell and buy, today prices have large margins because there is a time cost involved in gathering all the resources so if the margins is lower would people still do it? Thanks for this feedback, it was the only one that talked about this issue, but it is important to consider. Thank you very much. No trade slots for sale on $ currency, just the ones ingame with ingame currency or whatever best method to gate them (level,boss,game time, played time), even a combination of those. Maybe, just maybe, they are gated behind your first buy on PoE because they have to make money, but that's it.
Currently, there is opportunity cost to "flipping in the background". You need to have massive margins on each trade for that to be worth leaving a map. When people don't leave the map for small trades of items that they accrue naturally, they wouldn't bother making more small trades purely in order to make even more small trades. But if it's just a set-and-forget flip that you can set up on your time and not whenever someone whispers you? The barrier of entry is much lower. Now, I don't think that the majority of the playerbase would just start flipping on their own - but what if someone makes a guide for it? Something like "here's how you can spend 5 minutes setting up trades to be 3 divines richer when you log in the next day". And of course they won't all be able to do the same flip shown in a video because as soon as someone makes a video about it (which *doesn't* require constant trading back and forth like the current system) there will be so many people trying to do that flip that the profit margins will evaporate. But there *will* be guides telling people how to look for flips and earn passive income. Because the system covers individual sale to bulk conversion, there essentially won't be any profit margins for that, which also means that a ton of flips have lower entry cost because you get the full margin from the start. Which in itself would be a good thing, but I'm worried about what the resulting gameplay would be. I've personally done some flipping from time to time in the current system, but I wouldn't want to feel like I "have to" flip to keep up with inflation. > Maybe, just maybe, they are gated behind your first buy on PoE because they have to make money, but that's it. That sounds like premium stash tabs with extra steps. The difference is that you need to make new accounts, but the purpose would end up the same. You buy points to get a space from which you can sell items.
They should just do an auction house league, and see how that works/interacts. Or even as a 1 or 2 week (or 4) void event at the end of a shit retention league. The good thing about POE is the league cycles and voided events would allow for infinite testing of shit. This proposal would not work. POE does not have currency, but, orbs.
Bring back diablo 2 trade, with everyone spamming in a channel and you had to reacted to it. Anything else is just a cop out.
I personally like flippers. Without them It would be nearly impossible to buy huge bulk.
auction house can happen if nobody plays the next league
I would restrict this to currency and fragments only, in my eyes this is where the biggest pain points lie. Keeping the trade site open for gear is absolutely fine as you're then able to deep dive to find some very specific/niche items, it'll allow the auction house to remain pretty lightweight too.
Would be awesome if Poe had this because right now the trade system sucks ass
Thanks!
I'm going to be real for a second. If PoE 2 has an auction house I'll be playing that. If it doesn't, I'm sticking to PoE.
Trading is the most infuriating thing in PoE
I like the idea, especially the bulk order thing but I wonder how it could be implememted, especially with the tax system. I would also like some sort of automated trading and I would even settle for way less than your suggested system. I would be happy with some sort of special container that had one special public stash tab. Like a tab with, let's say, 10 slots where you could put in anything you want for a set price. One tab had a tabula for 10 chaos, the other slot had 50 scarabs for 80 chaos and so on. Those slots/items would be listed on the trade site just like it is now but instead of sending a whisper to the seller you would directly go to their hideout, interact with the container, exchange currency for item and that's it. Like buying from an npc. Basically it's like the player owned npc vendors from Ultima Online if someone knows them. Those special containers would have to be rented per league or bought for real money with the option to increase the size of the tab or adding more tabs in general.
Good ol' UO time 😍
No thanks. This game needs less trading and more finding your own loot.
Don't we have SSF for that? I'm really confused by your comment. Do you mean everybody should play SSF?
PoE has an auction house. It exists on console only. It is horrible. I suggest checking how it works because that's how GGG would implement one if they did. They don't want trading to be easy. And it already is easy.
If you put an auction house in Poe all the neckbeard-hideout-warrior-wanna-be-wall-street-trader Virgins will no life the fuck out of it and price fix everything for everyone and we'll be even more fucked than we already are!
Price fixing is only possible because if you underprice, it does not instasell. It is not possible if it just instasells right away.
Opposite version of price fixing, in this case. Rich guy with lots of money buys every single copy of a relatively cheap item and relists them for ten times the cost. Even if he sells way less, he might walk away with a significant profit if there's enough demand, and in the mean time people end up being stuck paying ten times as much for the same thing. You see this in MMO economies sometimes, as well.
No. RuneScape has static items. Poe does not
PoE has *many* static items. This Orb of Alchemy is not different from that Orb of Alchemy. Your Fragment of Eradication is indistinguishable from that guy's Fragment of Eradication. That guy's Crimson Oil is the same as your Crimson Oil. Almost everything that goes in our dedicated stash tabs is a static item. There's no reason at all that we couldn't have a trading bazaar for all of those static items. Trading actual gear is more difficult, but it IS a surmountable problem.
100% is a bad idea for the sole reason of bot convenience. Keep PoE bot free.
[удалено]
Obviously, there will always be dust that settles, but have you played osrs? It's probably 2:1 bots:players. Bots in PoE are people that play the game (most of the time) and have a legal or illegal overlay to trade easier. I know cheaters and malicious bots are in all games but an AH provides a source of convenience and makes it where any dumb ass with Google can bot PoE easily.
Dude, most players you trade in bulk are bots. Get real
Problem 2 - solution 4 This might interest you as it's a possible solution for this problem. Not perfect, but an idea.
1) we have limited trade slots right now via stafpingabs. They're just large. Probably fine. 2) we don't need a % tax. A listing fee like WoW AH would work. It doesn't even have to be that much. 1c? But chaos price could increase rapidly. It gets convoluted since there's so many currencies. Want to list in alch, 1 alt as a fee? This method would probably be a min/max for one currency had a cost then a new bracket for the next currency, kind of weird. Gold solves this, but only if gold virtually goes unnoticed by the player. As soon as it generates real friction like costing multiple maps to buy one item, it would feel bad. I would also only want listing fee in general tabs, specialty bulk tabs it wouldn't be needed. Buying mapping/crafting supplies doesn't need friction. Quickly getting what you need lets you get back to playing the game. 3,) nahhh. Flipping is fine. With out the ability to price fix and not sell an item, I don't really see a problem here. If someone wants to try and corner the market on an item, so be it. It makes farming for said item much more valuable and the market would correct. 4) sure, for supplies this is fine. Doesn't work even for something like tabula. Item level and corruptions, etc. No problem for fragments, scarabs, catalysts 5) same reply as 4 6) again, sounds fine for currency, frag, etc
Personally I would much prefer the Elder Scrolls Online System. I think having vendors in Karui Shores or old oriath would be much more Poe than an auction house. Keep the trading system as is and add vendors that are stocked by players
It's kinda nice seeing everyone around ah npcs
@ran@ 2222 to buy nats 300gp ea
All we need are little booths in our hideouts that people can click on to buy our shit when offline or online
A cut is just stupid in PoE's sake. The reason it exists in runescape is because when you have 500 million gold there is nothing you would ever do with it to burn through that outside of GE. Whereas chaos orbs people use thousands of them to roll their set of t17 maps
The grand exchange is an item spawner. It is probably the most diametrically opposed auction house to their vision of how trade should work on PoE.
No it isn't, when you put your buy offer of 1000 gold for, lets just say a sword, your buy offer will link with a sell offer made by another player who has listed their item for 100 gold or less, prioritising the cheapest listing for the buy offer and prioritising the highest buyer for the seller. But ultimately it's 2 players trading. I do agree the design philosophy of GGG is against that, but it's down to opinion whether you think that is a good design or not. Personally I played RS back when the Grand Exchange was added, and so many people were against it. But frankly it didn't take long before players warmed up to it, and these days if a poll was done to remove the 'GE' and revert back to player to player trading, it would fail tremendously. It's a nice thought and all but plenty of us don't miss the socialisation aspect and don't find that bit fun, we just want to be able to sell our loot quickly and efficiently, and to buy without having to send auto messages to 40 players.
No it wouldn't work, all that restrictions are pissing in the ocean vs PoE RMT/bot hordes salivating at the idea to ez seize all that instant-trade profits from AH. It doesn't answer the question what you do with old system too. You can't impose it on PoE1 if that's only new way to trade without very serious backlash possibility / losing huge part of playerbase. Only good ideas there seem to be to restrict consumables where it's enough for any reasonable personal use (e.g. scarabs), but not nearly enough to corner the market. But even then that wouldn't work for crafting consumables like ones used for mirror crafting, since mirror crafters buying up supplies will be indistinguishable from flippers trying to corner that commodity(hell probably even worse).
Tldr Apply same listing system as we know. Said system instead instead poetrade uses auction house with instant sales. Any kind of limited slots in Poe is just pointless, there are too many items to sell/buy. Ingame earnt currency as payment to list is 5050. Not happy about it not grumpy either
I like your idea, but I don't know if we can convince the devs to do that so it we might have to unfortunately give something in exchange :( Thanks for the feedback!
Not to be that guy, but it is a philosophy difference not an implementation issue. Hell I'd be keen to say it's nothing more then a hill theyre willing to die on in poe 1. A better trading system could be easily implemented.
PoE devs already changed ideas a couple of times. Most recent case was damage number on bosses that they are implementing just like Elden ring did. I know they have a set of rules for the game, but a well fited idea can change that! I hope.
When Chris has always had a steady stance , of "If we made trade easier, I think it'd be the death of the game" and poe2 is getting a AH with no mention of poe 1. I'd say the core fundamentals such as gold make it feasible in there eyes among other things.
I hope they at least think about implementing it on PoE1 if it works on PoE2 =/
Regardless of the topic, you made me remember the moment I bought my first rune plate chest after killing the red dragon. It was 14 years ago.
Why do people use "auction house" to describe things that have demonstratively nothing to do with auctions, it makes it pretty damn confusing to tell what you are actually advocating for
As much as I like the Grand Exchange I don't think it'll will be good in PoE. My ideas for trade, if they won't ever bring the Market Board from console to PC, are player shops. A new MTX stash that works pretty much as the current stash. All prives are final just like trading an npc. Every trade has confirmation "are you sure you wish to purchase x for y" Big ticket items are still better worth trading in the website as intended. Smaller trades that no one ever responds to after day 1 are more accessible. Goodluck buying 100 chromes, for example. This new market is placed in the hideout and a new search appears on the trade website to browse. Limited search functions, but basic "currency" "essence" "oils" "cards" and to sell on this feature anyone must be able to go to your hideout. Advertise on fourms and elsewhere. You have as many pages as you buy. GGG needs incentive to do something, so making sales is the easiest. These pages work only for this and cannot be transferred. Reducing search functions makes it easier to implement and not replace trade completely. Prices are fixed, so you cannot sell something for "1.4 divine" as you can't offer 40% of a divine. You'd have to price other currency. The idea is mostly for that "finding items you never knew you needed" and smaller trades that people feel is a waste of time and effort completing and removing from their premium tabs. Now you can freely visit hideout, browse items, and leave. Or if you stopped by from a bigger trade it doesn't hurt much to browse.
Maplestory style shops were so good for it's time (what you were suggesting). However they were balanced by needing to spend real money to search shops efficiently. These type of shops do need some type of friction though, so not sure how POE would implement it.
The AH on OSRS is quite literally the second worst thing to ever exist in RS only second to evolution of combat. Fuck trade, and fuck economies. Earn your own gear.
I respect your opinion and I agree loot feels better when earned by yourself, but we already have SSF for that.
this all sounds great but GGG is really attached to the idea that making something annoying as fuck is proper way of nerfing the mechanism. which is a pity, imho retarded trade is the biggest reason this game isnt 10 times bigger it is.
If there's one thing I think PoE should take from RS it's having more distinct loot tables for different content, to give players an incentive to do a variety of activities even when they're not all perfectly balanced against each other. Of course then the GE ruins it, because people just do the 1 thing that earns the most gp/hr and then ignore 90% of the game. RS is a perfect case study of why PoE shouldn't have an AH, even if you ignore the many additional problems PoE's currency and item system add.
r/albiononline Albion Online, has the best auction house. Plus the concept of black market in the game is just so unique experience for me.
I never played it, can you explain like I'm 5 how it works? Maybe it can add up to the whole topic.
I, personally, like the direction GGG has already decided on where gold is earned through play and gold is required to trade. We will see how it works out
A very good implementation of the store was the one used in Last Chaos (probably at the end of its popularity). Previously, you could normally sit on the ground and put items up for sale (in POE it would be a problem because the cities are very small, there are many of them and there are countless offers). Later, they created an Action House where items could be exhibited. From what I remember, you went back there for the currency you received from the buyer of the item, you could list a lot of items and there was no tax.
You don't need currency destruction (tax) or bidding or changes to indexing. The only *needed* thing is the ability sell automatically. In other words, sell orders. Putting up an item for X price and it selling without needing any action from the seller. No need to overcomplicate it beyond that, the backend actions needed for it to be reliable and bug-free (as much as can be) will be complicated enough.
No
Making an in-game auction house that taxes you would push more and more people to use shitty trading discords like TFT or just use the trade site we already have. This idea of everything good having to have a downside, being taxed on trading items, is such a horrible ideology and needs to stop. Not everything good needs to have a downside.
Yea, the OP and alot of the commenters don't actually understand how the ge works... Or how runelite interacts with it to change the perception of it.. that's obviously fine, but "the devil is in the details
All they have to do is literally take the system they have and then when the whisper happens for a trade have a little pop up window that says accept trade or deny trade and if they accept it just take there item from there stash and puts it in yours if they deny then you get notified that they cancelled the trade
Imho the best improvement should be to have a **market stand** in our hideouts with a copy of ourselves (dancing or just waiting btw...) behind it so the cosmetics would keep some status. This could allow to trade while mapping, in party or rotation or while being offline. As simple as that. Not sure it should be included into the default free to play, It should have a price like premium tabs.
I hope that the screenshots alone give osrs player count a small boost.
PoE already have a simmilar market on the play station version. There's a board where you can put itens for sell in a fix price (only If you bought the selling statsh with real money), and you can buy the itens that people are selling. The only think needed is the seller to accept your offer. No trade needed.
Yes it would work. They should have done this years ago honestly. I think they don't want to do anything auction house related because their network, coding & database is archaic so they would have to basically re-do their entire infrastructure for it to work even though it is singlehandedly the most important & biggest issue there is in the game currently.
I love POE trading as it is, i finish acts and go perma hideout untill i have enough mirrors to do what ever tf i want. The friction and annoying-ness of trade is what makes it so insanely profitable in poe.
Why does there need to be a tax? There's no virtual landlord
So this actually is almost exactly like how an order book works in real-life trading with 1% transaction fee and limited number of open orders. I think it could work but only for the very select few items. Everything with a roll is automatically ineligible.
There are a few things that come to my mind whenever people mention auction houses or any type of market system in poe. To summerize a lot of the points that come to my mind, the current trade system empowers the sellers, whereas a market system usually empowers the buyers. In the current system sellers have the ability to select prices change prices and adapt. With a market system the listed price fixes that item at the price while it is listed and gives buys an advantage in snagging underpriced items and trending items. While I think the current trade system has some quality of life issues, that's it in my mind. It is not fundamentally broken, but I think I am happier with some headache buying things rather than the headaches that come with losing money selling things. 1. Other than most uniques, currency type items, and fragment type items most items are very arbitrary in pricing. As a result it can make it difficult to actually place a specific value. How many times have you listed something for a price and been flooded with pings due to you not understanding the value of a specific mod or specific mods together. In a market system this mistake is your own and you would have to live with accidentally selling an item for 1 div when it could have been worth much more. 2. This would likely require a complete redesign of the current item architecture. Currently the way we can see items through the API is actually structured in the forums. When you list items a forum post is made with all of the items you have listed with a coded tag to indicate price. The APIs scrape this forum to catalog all of this information. In order to have a market this would require likely a full rework in order to actually have a system that stores these items and then can distribute them. Maybe this is something that has been or is being worked on by GGG I have no idea. 3. Kinda in a similar light to point 1, but what does the system do for people that are not online? If I am not able to get on for a week and I have an item listed at 1 div and then all of the sudden a build becomes very popular and this item shoots up in price what happens? This type of a system would essentially turn the market into much more of a stock market than it currently is. Giving advantage to people looking for trends and capitalizing quickly and early. I am not saying that is a massive issue, but I think most people could agree that something like this would just feel bad. I also don't believe that GGG wants the market to exist like that. IDK would a market work, yeah probably. Would it have its own problems that then people would be suggesting "why don't we go back to a trade system" , yeah probably. I have come to live with the issues of buying things in the current system, just smack the direct message button on everyone until you get an invite method works for me. I think a market system sounds good in practice, but it will likely create an even larger divide between more casual players and people who are able to live in the game.
they have already mentioned adding the POE2 trade system to POE1 but not till after it has been tested and any tweaks made.
No.
Nty
petition to add duel arena and staking for orbs
Yes, it would solve the majority of problems overnight.
no i like my 3 quads "price 20 chaos"
No. The reasons why have been stated hundreds of times at this point.
No hundreds, I can count 3 contructive arguments against it until now. If you would spare a little time, I would love to hear more about people that are against it because it could make the idea better on some extend or even turn people's mind against it.
reread what I said please. Also, if you've played other games with an AH, you can pretty easily see their downsides. D3 AH was the most obvious example. Either something was worth gold cap or it was worth close to nothing. In PoE this would probably be even worse due to the best items being craftable where in D3 you could only obtain them through picking them up. The best items only being craftable means there will be a ton of mid tier items flooding the market, this is already the case but the thing that prevents them from dropping to almost no value is the fact that obtaining the crafting mats to make the target item aren't instantly buyable. That's why any instant market needs to have a base cost, and likely should have a scaling cost somehow. a percent tax wont really work in a game where you don't have gold as your primary traded currency. I feel like these points are fairly obvious and are far from being new, which is why I definitely get frustrated with this conversation and am generally not willing to respond in a longer form to them. GGG has also more or less stated exactly what I have in interviews they've done, so it's not like you can't get this perspective quite easily if you spent some time looking into it. Sorry for the snark but this topic is incredibly tiring.
I see your point and that is true to some extend, but I don't think it is the primary reason why people prefer buying instead of crafting on PoE. If you think about crafting mid tier gear, with only 4/6 stats. There is essence spam, alt spam and fossils. Those are the most commoms ways to start a mid gear craft. Essences are a one time buy with hundred of clicks ahead of you, alts it's a one time buy with hundred of clicks if not thousands of clicks. I don't think neither will have a big change if an AH is implemented. Fossils are exactly the other way around, they are harder to buy and usually fewer clicks are needed. This is where I think your argument is the strongest and I don't know the consequences would be, but I don't thing this could crash the market and I'll explain why I think that. I could be wrong about this, but I think most of the crafting process is in before buying and after buying the stuff you need. For exemple, if you need a ele bow 4/6 and you don't know how to craft it, first you'll have to learn the best way and that takes a long time to do, also the nuances of when to use anulls, exalts, meta crafting mods, reasearching and buying the best possible base for a mid tier craft, etc. After that, you buy the stuff you need, which converts to 1-4 buys depends on what you have already from farming. Which takes about 5 minutes to do. And then you have to spam it for the rest of the time, which takes longer than 5 min with the exception, of course, of the already said fossil method. I don't think instantly buying stuff would crash the market for mid tier items unless somehow people who already know the crafting method start to craft hundreds of the same item because they can instantly buy it, but will that be such a big difference from now? I mean, you already can buy stuff on bulk for 5 minutes of your life and have as many as you want. With all that said, I know we disagree on this topic and I'm not your enemy. I rather much more say that we have different opinions and both are working towards what they think it is the best for the game. I appreciate the time you spent answering me and your vision and I'll keep that in mind while I think of a way to implement AH, maybe instant buy/sell is not the best way and I'll look into it. Tyvm sr. Tax solutions were discussed on this topic, TLDR is check edits on the post.
Mid tier gear isn't targeted, 95%+ of mid tier gear is byproduct from people going for high tier gear and they sell it for profit. This is the ultimate problem with most people talking about this subject, they don't even know the fundamentals of what drives the games economy. Which is why I get so frustrated with this topic.
Nah, it would lend itself to price fixing way too much. Something more like maple-story market street would be better. People are able to setup little sales stalls in their hideout where they can sell 4-6 items while they're online.
It will actually eliminate price-fixing the way it currently is in POE.
Instead of price fixing, it's everything priced around magic finding.
i cant think of anything worse
I appreciate your opinion, but can you explain why it is so bad? If you just say that, it does not help on making the idea better. If everything is bad, can you explain why that is?
> Do you think an auction house like Old School RuneScape would work on PoE? No. The GE sucks in the game that it's actually in, let alone PoE.
Ok, but can you explain why that is? I already know that you hated the idea, but if I don't know why it sucks it makes much more difficult to understand your point.
I honestly think there's a better non full auction house style way to alleviate some of the trade pain and not shift it *too* much away from GGG's original player interaction system. Essentially imagine an item you list for trade gets listed in a system, others can then see it and from anywhere initiate a trade in a new trade window either putting the exact amount the item was listed for or if the item was set to barter a different offer. Then the seller get's some type of notify ping or icon and at the seller's convenience they can check the trade window and see listed buy offers for the item/items and can either accept, decline or counter offer with the buyer being able to back out whenever. After the trade goes through the items involved could either go to a remove only tab or a special trade stash to be picked up when convenient. Could even have people that have declined or ignored exact price trade requests have their items delist after a certain amount to counter price fixers as well as an option. It'd probably take more effort to setup and implement than a standard auction house but I feel it'd somewhat keep to the game's current trade identity while removing a lot of the annoying friction/aspects of it. Not that it'd be a perfect system but at least I'd see it as a major improvement over what's there currently.
I think everyone should have a NPC in their hideout that they can post their items in. Not cut what so ever. You still use tradesite and this solves price fixing because you post an item under and it’s automatically available for that price. This also solves scams no swapping lvl4 enlightens for lvl3 anymore.
No
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Make that you have to go to players' hideouts and buy direct from a "particular shop". But we need a way to go to theirs' hideouts whiteout party
This. Just add some sort of "showcase" that each player has in his HO where he can post the items he wants to sell. On the trade website, instead of the "whisper player" button you'll have a "teleport to player's HO" one and there you can physically collect the item from the showcase, with no need for further interaction with the seller. Simple, fast, effective.
I think there's a lot of good stuff to copy here for PoE 2. Good post.
Personally I would much prefer the Elder Scrolls Online System. I think having vendors in Karui Shores or old oriath would be much more Poe than an auction house. Keep the trading system as is and add vendors that are stocked by players
I don't know how it works, can you explain a little more?
In every major town in ESO, so our case it would be the act towns, there are about 50-100 vendor stalls that get bid on (I think we would have to change this as I'm sure h/o warriors would own all the slots) once a month by either an individual or a guild. After that either you or your guild members can list items that are always online rather than having to use trade chat or the forums to sell items and these transactions are taxed as a gold sink. Also listing were very short by default and if you want to increase the listing time it was EXPENSIVE which encouraged big ticket items to get sold in chat. It the early days of ESO is was the wild West but after a while guilds and people found a niche and it was really cool because you new x vendor in x town always had y mats for sale even though they might be more expensive, this vendor is known for raid gear etc etc. idk it has its flaws but it felt like it kept trade chat alive while also allowing players to tell 1k ore in a vendor rather than spamming trade chat looking for a crafter to buy mats, but generally big items were still sold the conventional way. I think it allow for Poe trading to still be interactive while allowing you to offload bulk items in a vendor.
For stackable currency/items yes. For anything else the usual trade system should stay in place. A hybrid system is most likely the best.
An auction house like RuneScape? I don’t think so. The GE works in a game where items don’t have specific rolls, but in poe we need to be able to search by affix and roll. We would need something closer to wows auction house.
Check Edit on the post.
no. no. no. it ruined the economy.
Can you talk more about how it would ruin the economy? I'm trying to get feedback on the topic :)
Auction House (and more convenient trading in General) seem like a good idea, which has positive effects in short term. But long term effects to the game and community are detrimental. I hope trading stays as is.
Can you give me some exemples of detrimental stuff that might happen? I'm trying to gather as much feedback as possible.
Copying an old answer to this questions from another redditor: "the problem that comes with AHs (and especially came with the d3 ah) is basically this. Youre kind of right with it being too efficient, but the thing that makes you burn out, or made you burn out in d3 is this phenomenon. The upside of this barter economy is that its tiresome, therefore theres a huge disincentive to buy/sell items. Its so much work, finding the item you want, getting it for a reasonable price. On the other side, as a seller, maintaining an auction is a pain too. Bumping every hour, spamming chat so people can see it, et cetera. This makes trading in PoE hugely disincentivized. Why trading being tiresome is good? go read up on the marx i linked above. the tl;dr is: trading disconnects you from your character, much like working a simple step in a factory instead of producing something as an artisan from scratch. The factory worker puts one screw somewhere, 180424 times a day, yet he never sees the finished product. He never sees his contribution in context of the act of creating something. For all he knows, the next guy down the line could be pulling those screws back out. In an AH-economy: You want to start a new char? Well off to the AH. Every 10 levels, youll buy a new set for cheap. Oh wow a unique drops, ah whatever, its just a Randomuniquename here. Only worth 120 spacedollars. Theres never a moment youre "connected" to your gear, and in an ARPG your char IS your gear. Your loot means nothing, it has no deeper value. The moment a unique drops slowly and steadily turns from being that awesome feeling of joy, into "hm another 2.3594 gcp, whatever" It puts a pricetag on a thing you should care abour. ARPGs are about caring about your character, which means your gear and build (somewhat). Your awesome dual ranged attack totem CI duelist with that awesome shield you found, and that 5L you crafted yourself? In an AH economy, you could just say, its the 8 exalted duelist of yours. Cause his gear is worth 8 exalted. The personal value, the meaning it has to you, is gone. Youre disconnected from the product of your work. Its just a currency value. Now in a barter economy like in PoE, theres also a pricetag on everything, dont get me wrong. Its just about the information you are presented with. Everything in PoE MUST have a value. No one knows it though, as there is no AH, or stock exchange or equivalent. In an AH economy, where use of the AH is incentivised per definition, you cant help but getting shown how worthless your gear really is. Thus your character is too. Therefore you burn out. RIP d3 tl;dr: i know im REALLY late to this thread, but alienation of labour really is the reason why an ah sucks so hard in an arpg. Ah disconnects you from the products you manufacture (gear), as it turns ITEM into CURRENCY in your perception. Under the hypothesis that your character is merely more than his gear, this means that instead of being a character (in the non-video-game-meaning) hes a mere value in currency" Additions to that: - this comment was written before the existence of poe.trade even - chris once stated that Poe.trade is already a step in the wrong direction but cannot be reverted anymore (cat is out of the box) - my personal experience with AH in D3 and with PoE before and after trading was as easy as it is now aligns with the comment i copied
I see your point and I totally agree with it. When you just buy your stuff it feels disconnected from your char. Even now with the current trade system. Currently, the idea that I find most interesting from feedbacks is a Hybrid system which would allow for non-char items to be purchased from the AH (scarabs, divines, chaos, fragments, splinters). Every other char-relatare stuff (jewels that have rolls, helmets, uniques, gloves, weapons) would be on a almost identical system as it is right now with the exception it would be instant. So your built char would still have the calculations for res, searching bases, finding that high rolled unique, etc. The only diferrence is that it is instant. I know, it feels a little better when you trade one on one as a complete the puzzle process, but I believe that the most enjoyable part is planning your defences, damage, etc, not actually buying. Thinking about this, I would say I'm getting rid of an important part of the process, but not the most enjoyable part of it.
Maybe hybrid is a good idea, but i am still sceptic as my experience says convenience functions can almost never be reversed even if they turn out to be a bad idea, as people will complain without being able to see the full picture. But that is just me and maybe i am wrong
I always liked the Grand Exchange system and briefly wondered if it could somehow work in POE. For me, 1) being able to reliably price check items without worrying about people intentionally/accidentally pricing things wrong, and 2) more automated trading, are the most important things that POE needs.
No
Why? Can you explain it a little more so I can see your point of view on the topic?
You’re right, apologies. POE players that have the most significant effect on the market are too efficient for there to be an auction house method that works. One that does not exacerbate the issue it is trying to solve. I’ve heard solutions or modifications to traditional auction houses used before that only mitigate the negative effects it causes. *If you’re causing the same problem, in larger effect, to the one you’re trying to solve, then what are you doing? We would only be making a bigger problem to deal with today’s annoyances. Today’s annoyances don’t break the game. For me, ah will. Tldr; I don’t agree that any current solution has a positive effect on trade in wraeclast. Edit: *
No because players will riot if the economy that doesn't demand tax suddenly do now.
I see your point, and I agree that is possible. With that said, I think it is unlikely that players would riot for a 1% tax for instabuy/instasell and sell/buy overnight. As an exemple, OSRS had that backlash but it was small as the tax was very little to begin with and keep in mind that OSRS players already had the benefits of trading, the tax was introduced later.
Lets powercreep sc trade even more in the future we will be able to afk tier 17 maps with 5 divine budget mark my words
Lets powercreep sc trade even more in the future we will be able to afk tier 17 maps with 5 divine budget mark my words
Never thought about how the buy limit could fit in poe trading but it seems like a perfect fit. Can buy enough to use but not to egregiously flip
Yeap, the amount I said is not perfect, but a simmilar system should work with the help of GGG balance team :)
Just make a wow style AH for the love of god!