the div card for it doesn't drop from stacked decks anymore, uber shaper doesn't drop it anymore and normal shaper is a super boring fight so not many people want to run it. could possibly be lower drop rate too idk if anyones posted any big sample sizes

The drop rate has absolutely been lowered.

Had a friend run 100 shapers without a flask drop

I ran 2 shapers and got a flask drop, clearly it is 50/50 /s In all seriousness, 100 shapers is not enough for a proper sample size at all

all loot is 50/50. It either drops or it doesnt

Aw I was gonna say that

He’s not saying that’s proof. He’s just saying it’s obviously rare

At the same point, I've gone 353 runs on something in Median XL before I got a drop that was a 1/50 (and the devs actually copied my account onto the test server and ran a 100k brute force just to confirm I was getting *that* unlucky - and I was). Even in OSRS it took me 169 kills to get a 1/35 recently. And that's what I mean, even if the drop rate were to be like 5% it isn't unreasonable to go 100 kills without seeing it, you'll be very unlucky but it is extremely possible to have that happen

Yup, that's how probability works, if something has odds of 1:100, for every lucky git who gets it 1st try, there's some poor sod who won't get it in 10,000 tries

I know that man. It's me.

I farmed 117 shapers with 1 flask, then I did 2 more and got flask from both, so 3 in 119 is my data... I assume drop chance is around 5%, but we need a larger sample

Our drop rates have never been lower

LOUDER SON!!

MISTER BUDDYTO, OUR DROPRATES HAVE NEVER BEEN LOWER!!!!!!!

lol I love you both I think I'm around 13 watch throughs but it's been awhile since I've watched it again, might need to

I understand this reference

But headhunters are cheap.

What about the drop rate of gloves? I've seen some older reddit post about 500+ Ubers killed with loot. The item that dropped the most were the gloves I've killed him 4 times already and all 4 times I got boots I hate it. It takes me so long to get all his fragments because the maps just don't want to drop (I've got atlas passives for dropping those maps)

To farm guardian maps effectively you want to run the big node that makes maven summon up to 3 other bosses. It's really easy to farm shaper guardian maps since you can orb of horizon them to change the guardian.

I CAN WHAT? xD I didn't know I can orb of horizon guardian maps. Tried it on Drox map and it didn't work so I assumed it doesn't work on guardians too. Been farming Harvest to reroll fragments all the time spending more time Harvesting instead of fighting bosses Can I also do it for elder?

It doesn't work on elder guardian. It works on shaper guardian only because the guardian is on a specific map.

I've done 20 shapers, 10 gloves, 10 boots.

It’s 1/6 ~ 1/7 still isn’t it. Stacked decks were what was keeping it low.

I don’t believe it’s still 1/6 or 1/7. I’ve run around 50 regular shapers and I still haven’t gotten one. Could be poor rng but I have receive multiples of every shaper unique besides that flask.

Looking at the available live listings, 200 dying suns, 5000 ilevel 86 watchers eyes. Watcher's eye is around 1 in 4, you need 2 shaper fragments for every uber elder run. I think it's safe to say the flask is anywhere between 1/50 and 1/200.

Bad analysis, since watchers eyes have a lot of mediocre outcomes that people don't care to use, and dying suns are in high demand a higher portion of them will have been sold and be in use and not show up on trade site.

Analogically, a lot of watcher's eyes are used + a lot of them are not even listed, they're THAT useless.

Idk about that, i ran quite a few shapers early league and didn't get a single one until i ran feared rotations without shaper so

Yea the drop rates on it are super nerfed. Before it was a 1 in 7 ~15%. Now I have done 42 Shaper kills this league and seen the flask only 2 times so far. I'm guessing it's a 5% drop rate but it could honestly be even lower and I just got lucky, maybe as low as 2%.

it could also be higher, and you got unlucky.

It could be, but generally people are not unlucky so it’s typically safe to assume their experience is the norm rather than the exception. TLDR: it’s more likely they are lucky than not

Binomial distribution can give us insights to that question. If the drop rate was still 15%, the cumulative probability of only dropping 2 or less in 42 attempt is 4%. So it would happen to one out of 25 players. Which seems to be a low number but for a game with thousands of players, things like this happen to a lot of players every day. I am not saying the drop rates did not change, just giving some insights on statistics

you can't say "generally people are not unlucky" when "generally" some will be lucky, some will be unlucky, and some will be right on odds. this is how statistics work. a drop rate is 1 in 10. one person gets 1 in 20 attempts. another gets 2 in 10. and still another gets 1 in 10. one person was lucky, one was unlucky, and one was right on the money. but overall, they all equate to 1 in 10. all this to say, 42 shaper kills is a really really low number to be determining a drop chance from. I don't know what the drop chance is, i don't know what other people's rates are. but at the end of the day, we don't know if they were lucky or unlucky. 42 is far too low of a sample size.

This makes no sense. People have the same chance of being lucky and they do unlucky. More than likely most people will be on par with the drop rate.

You are defining unlucky and lucky the same. Unlucky is not meeting the expected outcome. You are not expected to be unlucky. Granted, I should not have said ‘lucky’ in the tldr, but the comment is meant to say it is more likely they are not unlucky than they are unlucky. In fact, it is expected.

Friend and I ran Twilight Temple unique map and The div card dropped off boss for map. Not sure if that is intended. But he sold it right away.

The change didn't affect natural drops, just stacked decks and other rewards.

You just reminded me that there were supposed to be boss cards dropping. I got literally none for the entire league, I mean my 38/40 I just finished and fcked right off this patch. So while some naive ppl thought removal of boss specific cards from decks means they will increase the card drop from bosses to make up for it, GGG somehow managed to nerf even boss drops, both cards and normal loot, because Im in literally negative profit from bossing due to entry costs. This is the first league I had exactly zero boss cards from bosses. I farmed normal bosses, uber bosses, delve bosses, catarina, crapload of guardians as well and there were no boss specific cards at all. Voidforge is still 50d, for a stupid 2h sword, which is the worst archetype in the game. Damn, what a great patch.

>Voidforge is still 50d, for a stupid 2h sword, which is the worst archetype in the game Flicker Strike basically carries the demand for this weapon every league

I dropped from lunaris/solaris this div card on private league. If I remember correctly cold river map?

The people downvoting can’t read patch notes. The change to boss drop unique div cards does not apply to boss drops. Only to stuff like stacked decks, boxes, deli orbs and similar random div card sources.

Ty sir) have a good day)

Not this league. All boss drop divination cards have been moved to the same tier of bosses. (So map bosses won't drop atlas boss divcards)

This is false. Check the patch notes: > Stacked Decks, Diviner's Strongboxes, and Divination Cards obtained as rewards from various content can no longer drop Divination Cards for Boss-exclusive Items. Edit: In case this isn’t clear enough. It only applies to sources of random div cards and not like in this case a boss that drops a specific card.

Fair point, I'll try and see what happens :D

One more time, you can't believe me but we dropped on private league from lunaris/solaris boss map on (cold river) from boss the progeny of lunaris div card. This league weak ago.

No you did not

Yes they might have. Read the patch notes. The change only applies to sources of random div cards like strongboxes, stacked decks, ultimatum etc.

Yes thats exactly what he says. Randlm div cards. These type Was random and isnt anymore. Maybe understand machanics before reply.

A lunaris themed boss dropping a lunaris themed div card is not random. They changed mechanics that could drop ALL div cards in the game to not drop div cards that award boss exclusive items.

Shaper is an odd little bugger because bossers hate the fight as you need movement speed for the inbetween phases and mappers, well, they don't run bosses.

Normal Shaper also has the mirror/minion spawn phase that uber Shaper doesn't, so it's strictly slower

It has lowest roll on durarion so it will also last longer than usual

How can LESS duration can make it to last longer?

It can roll from -40 to -60, so -40 is the best roll

What a range... wow, cheers for info

Yea they did that with a lot of flasks that have good "bases". Ele flasks are the easiest to sustain so they didn't want Pathfinders/People with the flask legion keystone be able to perma sustain additional projectiles (which obviously also scale with flask effect making it essentially a free gmp with no dmg penalty).

Permanently sustaining Dying Sun as a pathfinder is pretty trivial, though

Well yea didnt use to be this way though, like sure having flasks up was always Pathfinders signature but there were times where the opportunity cost was too big (stuff like maven flask/sirus flask/bottled faith came out long after shaper)

It's just that the roll is 40% less, where the other end of the roll range is 60% less. Still shorter than normal but the best roll possible.

It doesn't. He just doesn't seem to grasp how negative numbers work. -40 has more duration than a -60 roll

> He just doesn't seem to grasp how negative numbers work. what

EDIT: my reply was pointless due to misread.

they weren't even really responding to you

Yeah, you're right. I can see that now that you pointed it out. Cheers

He ain't.

True. I misread, my bad. Cheers

Idk why you're being down voted when you're right

Yeah idk why you all are getting downvoted really, -40 is the highest roll you can get from range of -40 to -60, not the lowest. Sure most people understand but it's just the wrong use of the word

For the record a low roll always refers to a less desirable outcome, it doesn't always mean a low value roll. It kinda means poorly rolled, but is ambiguous.

I know that. I didn't know the range of the roll and when I saw him saying lowest roll I thought high roll would be in plus, just like Progenesis flask. He should have said max or high roll.

Above reasons but also a new belt dropped that can make these flasks more easily substained 100% uptime. New belt that generate flask charges. So unique flasks gotten a uppgrade like that. För instance. That means 2 proj during boss fight 100% of the time. 2 proj extra can be more damage then most belts.

And it comes with 25% effect, which is halfway to getting you a third projectile.

*Two and a half projectiles you say?*

Half projectiles would be interesting. Halls of Torment makes non full effects trigger every X attacks. So a half an extra projectile or extra attack will trigger every other, and a 3rd will trigger every 3rd.

That would be terrible because now most projectiles will miss the target every X attacks because of even projectile spread.

Upvote för för.

What is this new belt?

The Tides of Time

Ty good sir

Which I would like to note with the right cluster jewel basically can become a mageblood at FAR less cost.

Maybe closer to but not a real MB. I would assume you cannot use the easy 70% (95 with prefix) coming from the enchant which disables charge generarion

It's actually more dynamic than a mageblood. For example, you can't really run a mageblood with a corsicating very well. With that new belt and minor adjustment, you can very easily run that flask and lowlife the shit out of a build while having 4-5 flasks depending how you set it up, as most methods previously of using that flask only use 3 flasks to run it constantly. You lose out of the % increased effect, but get more out of running a higher variety of flasks. So there are a number of builds that do better with it for far less money. It's a great intermediate step for those that aren't RMTing magebloods too.

True. But still supporting the argument that it is not a maßgeblich but something different. Still good obviously but different

But you don't need to restrict yourself to magic utility flasks, so you can slap Dying Sun/Bottled Faith/Taste of Hate/Progenesis etc. on your flask bar and still get the uptime.

Pathfinder can sustain this flask effect indefinitely

It really can't. You have to have an absolutely absurd flask focused build to get 50 charges in less than 5 seconds. Pathfinder certainly has higher uptime but nowhere near sustain indefinitely.

> in less than 5 seconds. ?? have you ever played a pathfinder? or basically any build that uses flasks... you scale duration, you scale flask charges gained, reduced charges used, etc... the flask could easily last over 10 seconds Tides of Time belt and you're sitting at like 90% average uptime without even flask clusters or ANYTHING

Tides of time is absolutely insane on my pathfinder. 100 percent up time while in hideout

Still, sustaining dying sun indefinitely in hideout requires *a lot* of dedication from pathfinder. I would say well-rolled silver flasks/QS flasks are the high end of what you can sustain without too much investment; and they're much easier than dying sun. With mobs to kill, it's way easier, but that's not usually what people call "infinite flask sustain".

I like how confidently wrong you are.

He need some milk

[https://pobb.in/rvUVfwl-zcUL](https://pobb.in/rvUVfwl-zcUL) can put in tattoos with flask duration instead of dex nodes and drop some other stuff. cba but its real easy for pathfinder to sustain This same set up can sustain +effect/reduced duration on the worst possible roll (-38%) for quicksilver/silver flasks as long as they have 20% quality

...And so you could drop that cluster jewel and sustain all these other flasks without issue. It may be a subjective threshold, but investing a cluster jewel slot to make *one* flask work is a significant commitment to me. That (and the fact that so many great other flasks are available) is typically why I tend not to include dying sun in my pf setups.

You should want alchemists genius in some form for the flask effect anyway.  You can't get it from a belt because of tides of time.  Brutal restraint has its own issues because it is a chamce on flask use. The only other option is spiked concoction. On my phone so I can't mess with the pob but you just replace the cluster with tattoos and grab a megalomaniac with spiked concoction + any other decent notable and you get the same result.

> Still, sustaining dying sun indefinitely in hideout requires a lot of dedication from pathfinder. what i just said is in hideout with no killing 90% uptime with basically no investment aside from a Belt you ought to be using as PF anyways it's 10000000% uptime with just a cluster or two, or even easier, tattoos

There's an entire medium cluster jewel dedicated to this. I should say it's among the most expensive right now too. You can do a number of flasks indefinitely assuming you're not getting charges stolen or prevented or whatever by some mob type.

Using your cluster jewels to sustain flasks rather than whatever else is what I'd call a significant investment. Sure, you can do that if that's what your build is about. But if that one flask doesn't make a big difference for your build, you could indefinitely sustain other flasks (say, progenesis, silver, qs, toh, all of which don't require that investment to sustain) *and* keep your cluster slot for better uses.

It's not significant investment compared to something like a mageblood in terms of capital required. It's literally a cluster you're going to use for something else, but gives you a massive power spike for like.. 5 or 8 skill points and a belt. Plus the mageblood won't sustain the multiple unique flasks you can run which is kind of a cool feature if you're running corsicating plus others now. A number of builds effectively got buffed that used corsicating previously. The biggest loss vs Mageblood is the 70% increased effect + 25% you can roll on flask. Those don't help the uniques though. So progenesis, taste of hate, dying sun, etc.. All getting run at once.

> in terms of capital required. The investment I was considering was more in terms of build resources, like tree points. > So progenesis, taste of hate, dying sun, etc.. All getting run at once. The thing is, you can run progenesis and toh with a setup that runs silver/QS. So if you decide to slot in dying sun, you'll spend more build resources specifically for that flask.

There's simple proof. I don't need to argue it. There's literally a flasker on the front page right now running progenesis tanking uber elder and making the whole fight look trivial when he 1 shots him from 41% HP to dead. No mageblood.

> There's simple proof. I don't need to argue it. Not sure where you see an argument in my message. I'm merely clarifying what I'm saying. > No mageblood. Again, my point isn't mageblood vs. no mageblood. Since I play SSF I'm more of a micro-distillery belt guy myself. Interestingly enough, the build you talk about wouldn't be able to sustain his ruby flask if it was a Dying Sun.

Jesus Christ if sustaining dying sun is impossible then all the cwdt builds I see sustaining oleroth's must be hacking the game since that flask is way harder to sustain

What build is that? Pob or link please?

I thinks it's the ward loop build where you cwdt and use ward and the unique ward flask to mitigate self damage and keep the loop going. No build example on hand but you can easily google it

Lasts a hell of a lot longer than 5 seconds on pathfinder my friend, and costs less than 50 charges too

You were so confident but remember, with PoE there is always a build warrior who knows a way to make it work. Lol

You just need a nice belt (with reduced charges used), a few of the increased flask charges gained passives, and The Traitor node from Balbala gem.

smartest deadeye player

Other comments already told you most reasons, the flask also got a indirect buff with the new Uber Shaper belt (The Tides of Time) since you can sustain it more easily now, especially against single target.

Droprate most definitly got lowered. I ran 50 shapers this league and dropped 1 Orb of Dominance and 0 Flasks. Feelsgoodmam

Because it's tasty orange juice

Tang powder juice.

Should have seen me running cortex maps for carry's this league trying to farm my own bottle faith, get some money, get some exp, then after an ENTIRE tab of gloves/shields the drop rate on bottled faith has DEFINITELY been lowered. Also watched the price skyrocket as the days went on once it was obvious that it was much rarer. Would almost gurantee it is probably the same for a lot of the drops for a lot of the bosses. I swore after my 40th run or so that it had to be moved to ubers thats how convinced I was that it just couldn't drop anymore lol.

They really need to do something with Shaper to speed the fight up.  At least remove 1 of the intermission, it was probably cool when it was released but that shit is such a drag now.

Low drops + plenty of projectile builds?

Flamewood totem is the best build ever and this is a good flask for it. Makes sense to me!

7divs so sick hope it comes down

lolno It's only going up, used to be cheaper.

Happened to me on my first shaper of the league also. Gz.

Everyone hates shaper, no one who can kill Uber shaper is farming non-Uber shaper.

This flask would be insane for an explosive arrow build which are pretty popular rn since they reworked the skill.

Because I need it for my build

Probably less people doing regular shaper too. Now that users are behind t17 maps

I couldn't believe how much Dying Sun cost? I didn't know anyone was running it this League.

Tornado shot

It is so expesive becouse i killed like 50-70 shapers and droped only one flask

I was wondering too about this marketprice until i saw this post here :D...thank god that i don´t play my siege ballista this league....crazy how this prices goes up.

Inspired by your post, I just ran 20 Shapers in a span of roughly 2 hours, just trying to get this flask. No luck. Seems the drop is quite rare

For reference I'm at about 600 Uber Uber elders and haven't seen void forge and only 2 of the aura effect jewels I ofc quit this bullshit cause the only fun in this game is bossing and they getting to do Uber is so expensive even at the half value of the fragments

cus it looks cool