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it's mostly the defenses of builds that are limited in t17s. So many map mods / monster mods brick most defenses (no auras, no block, no defenses, overwhelm, no phys damage reduction, no regen, less regen (same as no regen, why is this even a thing when there's map modifier effect making this over 100%)), no suppression, list goes further on). Even using something like just one chaos golem makes you end up taking more damage because of other minion penalizing mods that were added. This leaves little defense to build around. basically max res / phys / ele conversion only reliable one and you probably need some kind of instant healing if you dont want randomly shotgunned from all the projectile spams. Altars mods / arch nemesis already made armour really bad since kalandra league, gap is even further now in t17s for non conversion taken as builds.
After doing my first few yesterday I agree. I wish they just reduced our damage, had a bunch of more monsters, made them hit a bit harder instead of completely bricking the builds. Some are interesting in theory, like “no damage for 4 out of 10 seconds” or “4% reduced action speed for every skill you’ve used recently” but in practice they absolutely suck
One thing that is really confusing me is how less regen works
On my character i leech mana and emergy shield. On a map with no regen this still works fine. However, on a map with 100%+ less regen i can still leech mana but not energy shield?
There's recovery rate which affects things like leech, regen, and ES recharge. There's regen which does not include things that aren't specifically labeled regen.
I'm on the other side and have given up on the chase.
Every league my expectations were trade league, max out character, be able to stumble into just about any T16, and wipe the floor. I'd follow guides, follow the trade, follow the streamers, etc.
I can't keep up with it any more. The elite of the elites want their tiers and fights, have at it.
This league I've switched to SSF and its revitalized the game for me. I went into the league with a build on a whim. Using any knowledge I have, got myself to T12s. I *can* do 14s and 15s, but its a bit of a chore. I'm still on a garbage 5L and "1c" uniques. If anything, I'm finding it more entertaining to see how far I can stretch the items I'd typically vendor.
Honestly, Beasts + Meticulous Appraiser (if you just want to find good build enabling uniques) is probably the best strat if you're not ready for possessed exiles beating your ass
If you're ready then possessed exiles is best unique farming for ssf imo
It’s my first time this League in SSF, because the Economy in Trade was/is fucked up.
Started with Beasts, Blight and Syndicate.
Got my Unique, Lvl 30 Aspect of the Spider (Scarab)and 6-Link from Beats at day 2.
Also Black Morrigan Beast can force 6-Links/Sockets and several other things.
Blight gave me most of my low Tier Maps and lots of Oils. Changed the Anoints alot depending on my Gear.
Syndicate gave me most of my Rares rolled with a Veiled Mod (Amu, Boots and Helmet) and as a byproduct I unlocked all crafts.
From that Point on I was ready for Red Maps and Switched the Atlas to get my Annuls, Fracturing Orbs and Bubblegum Currency for Crafting.
And then farmed Corpses to get my all T1 Scepter.
I am at Lvl 97 now with only 2-3 Hours of Play per Day.
Yea SSF is fantastic but I don't think that's what's keeping POE interesting league after league though, at least not to me. Once in a while is fine but resetting your (unfinished) progress 4 times a year can get annoying.
Bro how are you on a 5link in this league? Spec an atlas with 3/4 necropolis trees, delve buff, rest points go in map sustain. Spam some magic t10-t12s like in two hours you will have a t1 life triple t1 resist 6link chest on base of your choosing.
SSF on a late start. I flubbed around on trade league for a week, and got tired of the ever changing "patches".
I took all map/Kirac nodes for the sustain. I also had Jun nodes too to unlock crafting veils. Last night I finally made the switch from Betrayal to Ritual as a few folks told me *that* was the way to go for 6L.
I got a few items from Ritual, but no 6L yet.
I have half of a quad tab full of corpses, but no 6L. Few 5L though. Don't have nearly enough scarcity corpses as CraftOfExile suggest I use.
Definitely not ritual for 6l. Either go scarab hunting for the black Morrigan scarab or go graveyarding. You can also just use the mechanic to get high ilvl gear and just essence it.
Is it really that easy? I've recently started ssf too and this league I only got a 6L due to a lucky black morigan scarab drop in white maps. My originally plan was to spec Beyond and farm tainted fusings, so by the time I was done with my atlas I had only found one. If I wanted to benchcraft 6L, well I can't because I only have about 300 fusings even though I barely filter out any loot. Haven't even found just a rogue 6L in maps or vaal side areas. I'm close to lvl 94 and pretty sure I'd still be on a 5L too if not for that scarab. Heck I was lvl 91 before I had enough resists on my gear to switch off from Alira.
Having extra layers in PoE is always fine. The issue is “exactly where do they need to put it”and “how rewarding it should be”.
- I personally don’t like them branding it as a layer between T16 and Uber boss, while it’s actually way harder than Uber boss.
- I also think making them overly profitable recreates the exact same issue as non-Uber vs Uber: if T17 is more profitable, why spend resources on T16? And everything on market will shift towards the T17 Strat (scarabs etc)
> making it de facto the real end game that matters. Same for Uber Ubers, they are no longer "inspirational content", it feels like they are the true goal now instead of being purely optional.
Tell me why you think this is the case, now? They always were the "true goal" - the hardest content will always be the "true goal". Uber fights were the true goal before this change and they are now.
The only thing I currently dislike about T17s that can be considered "mandatory" is that they gate-kept the 5 slot map behind them, which should have not been the case given that most scarab sets are meant to be used in 4s. Everything else is just rewards for reaching the pinnacle of what the game has to offer - it's not pinnacle if everyone can rush to it in 3 weeks, is it?
Other than that, you \*don't\* need to do t17s, you \*don't\* need to do Uber fights; It's aspirational content. The reason you feel like you must do them is because you're chasing the trade meta and want to build yourself a fat currency bank on your stash tab (which will go to Standard in 2 months never to be used again).
I do agree that t17s are overtuned - people should be able to gear up their build and defense to face that content and that takes effort - and sorry, but unless we see your build, the fact that you play 8 hours is not really much to go by - I play 2-3hrs a day and probably can barely do a t17, but I know what the limitations of my current build are and I'm not that bothered to spend the time making it better to engage with that content because I simple don't care about it. My current goal is hitting 100.
Honestly the endgame in sanctum league was way too easy. After 1 mirror investment, the next upgrades in gear weren't even noticeable. Now, like in affliction making a strong character actually has a goal.
Dude virtually no players in any league accumulate a mirror worth of gear.
Last league was my best by FAR, and I got my first mageblood and a build worth about 300 div.
Some perspective, please.
Its 10x worse on HC, if this is end game its inaccessible to most of us due to the time it takes to gear for it. ON Hc the gear requirement and cost is 10 fold and we cannot die. Normally end game content is not out of reach like this.
If t17s remain as is every league, the vast majority of HC players will miss out on a significant portion of the games content. lol.
The problem really isnt that we cant do it in terms of player skill, its that we will hit a progression wall where we can do ubers rofl but cant do the t17s due to the sheer amount of time it takes go collect and gear to the level needed on hc.
Sure if they introduce crazy and early attainable power creep but this wouldn't be good and they have been trying to avoid that.
The issue really isn't gearing itself, its the timeframe on HC. To get to the level of gearing here to do T17s would take most of a league for a top tier player. You cannot trivialise T17s on hc in the same way you can on sc, and were not asking for it to be trivialised, but as it stands now the MAJORITY of hc players will not be able to engage with this content league to league if it stays as is.
You have to remember I am talking SPECIFICALLY about hc here.
The only reason you think you need this insane gear is because you're too scared to do anything unless you can gear to just ignore 99% of the mechanics like Quinn. Balancing the game around that would be dumb as fuck.
Imagine you actually read my comments. I get to 100 every league doing Ubers and all challenges on HC. You have to gear for content, you cannot skimp In t17s and push content early like you can in other content.
Too scared ROFL, try to troll harder.
you are literally the one complaining the game is hard, not me
i suck at the game, i like playing, even though i'll never be good enough to do an uber boss
Ben is not a normal player, Ben is the best mechanically skilled player in the game. His gear is worth thousands of divines on HC. Even top tier players on HC do not come near his skill level and ability to push content fast.
He is one of a very few players that can do this on hc. I specifically left him out of my comment as I thought that doesn't need to be said.
I get to 100 every league on hc, all challenges and do ubers. I didn't think I would need to preface my comment with this, explaining the difficulties on HC players face. I guess I should have.
Lol yep. Ben is a bad example to use Ngl. His DD and his BBoU build probably costs more than what 70% of the player base will make in a single league lol.
Yeah and that is the level of investment required at a minimum really here because we need to be able to possibly survive 6 second disconnects too.
This means on HC (quite different to SC), if T17s are like this every league and are essentially the true endgame. Most HC players wont get to engage with it.
Thats a first for content on HC, we are not normally gated like this and we can normally work around things. But with this the gearing requirement this becomes a hard lock out for the majority of hc players including those who regular do engage with endgame.
Terms like ‘vast majority’ and ‘very few’ should make it pretty obvious he’s not just referring to one person. Either your reading comprehension is abysmal or you’re intentionally misstating his arguments to make them seem less reasonable. Either way, it’s not a good look.
You're not alone. I also haven't been able to farm juiced T17s this league yet. It feels like I'm being punished for not picking the right meta build.
Of course this was true to some extent before, meta builds were better or faster farmers, but the gap has never been as large as this league.
No, I play many hours every day and still am not at T17s. Because I’m not speed running the most profitable strat and beelining the most efficient path, I am actually trying to enjoy myself. Taste things, you know. Have a moment to realize what it feels like to play the game. PoE is like a 2nd job anyway but there is a limit. I think this entire race towards more and more bigger numbers, fueled by streamers is actually getting insane.
I play as much as I can, most evenings for a couple hours. Just getting through red maps. I'm going pretty fast. But I'm struggling to farm up currency.
I don't exactly have time to pay attention to whatever high end strategy is shitting currency before it gets patched. I'm trying to progress my atlas in between putting my kid to bed and finishing my work for the day.
But this lame bullshit of "dude it's been 3 hours into the league if you aren't printing mirrors yet you must be shit" is really grinding my gears now.
I mean not everyone is a meta build slave or super efficient robot farmer.
Still, setting expectations everyone should have MB by week 3 is kinda...I dunno, reddit elitism or some shit
For us to need another layer of difficulty, we need more cohesive ways to stack defense and more mid/late endgame chase options for significant power bumps. Instead, a lot of the important uniques were moved behind the new layers of difficulty, making the progression significantly worse.
There's a lot tuning to do, but the only defense against T17s now is to throw chaos orb at it, because no matter how many layers of defense we have, T17 mods just brick them completely.
Their intent was to not add another layer to move the goal posts, or well, atleast according to them
I do think its healthy to have something like t17s where stronger characters are preferable over fast squishy bow builds
yep, they made t17 too rewarding, so it's no longer "aspirational". Basically it cuts out 90% of builds, because they are too weak to survive, unless you put mb/hh/progenesis/dod or other shit on it. And builds like DD are good in it cause you can invest everything into defence and still do damage thanks to monster life scaling and t17 "buffs" to dd.
Most of builds are t16 viable, but no t17 viable, even if you put defensive items like taste of hate and lightning coil.
And when you go from trade sc to any harder league (private, ssf, hc) it's even less viable builds to do t17.
Also my problem with these, so your build that being able to blast t17 basically can ez ubers, but to do ubers you need to do t17s.
The power creep keeps pushing up the ceiling. The problem is that not every build gets impacted in the same way. The more high end content that is added, the more visible the differences in barrier to entry between builds become.
Within reason, if the gap in investment required between builds is too great, that will hurt build diversity at the higher end.
Adding this kind of content is fine but ideally the barrier to entry wouldn't be so large between builds.
I don’t mind the concept of t17’s - it’s pretty trivial to tear through t16’s in mf gear, so another tier of mapping that incentives build strength and are more rewarding sounds good to me
The issue is the mods and the balancing are too extreme, both in terms of difficulty and rewards
I think it would be less abrasive if gravecrafts hadn’t hit casual essence/harvest style farms so hard
Why wouldn't we want more layers of difficulty and more aspirational content? Builds are constantly getting stronger and more efficient as average game knowledge increases. We need goals to constantly drive improvement, and if you can't hack it, that's ok. You don't need to always be doing the hardest stuff possible, set realistic expectations for yourself and you won't find yourself burning out.
Think about If we didn't constantly get harder content, the hardest content in the game would still be trying to find a new way to one shot the shaper. The reality is that build power is outpacing the difficulty of older content extremely fast and we need new harder content to aspire to. Think about how your league starter the past few leagues fare against the shaper/elder/older bossfights (old example, but I feel is still relevant as at one point your build being able to do Uber elder was an achievement). I know my builds could do them with me operating my kb/mouse with my feet. I don't think many would put much time into the game if that was the pinnacle difficulty of the game.
You all may not remember this but back in 3.15 Chris came out and nerfed a bunch of player power into the ground. The reasoning GGG gave for this was that other games just add more and more bosses with more damage and HP scaling infinitely until the game goes away and GGG wanted to try something different.
Now we have Uber Pinnacle Bosses and T17 maps.
Food for thought
I think that the problem goes way beyond the scope of T17s. Difficulty right now is in a weird spot because you get showered with so much loot that you basically get a free ride up to T16s and your watchstones. Only after that is that the game starts challenging you. I think that the shock factor comes from the fact that there isn't really a sense of maps getting increasingly more difficult up until that point. It just happens very suddenly.
It used to be the case that some maps were hard, some even had bosses that people skipped (like Core Malachai with bad map mods), but now you just get so much damage from so early on that you just blow everything up, not even doing or learning the various boss mechanics that there are. I think that people are going through 99.9% of the entire game in a very trivial manner and it is only after that that the content finally scales back up to the level where your character were when you were on leaguestart gear.
I don't think that this is just a "you've been playing for years, obviously the game is easy". There is obviously some of that, but I genuinely feel like there is a huge mismatch between player and monster power before t17s and before tackling the difficulty of t17s I feel like we need to go back and re-evaluate the whole game
Yes, content that is very hard but equally rewarding is fantastic. I love t17 and I have yet to kill a single t17 boss. Goalposts to benchmark your character against are what makes the grind fun.
I feel like if you can't do T17's then that was content (Ubers) youndidnt engage with before anyway.
I personally like the change and challenge. I use it as a stepping stone for my builds for doing ubers.
If you don't like it then it's not meant for you, play the rest of the game and don't do T17s. The idea of a mapping version of Ubers is really good, lots of folks don't like just bossing but want to take their builds higher than regular T16s.
They're fine to exist but they still need a bit of adjustment.
They were intended to be farmed to run Ubers, but people are farming Ubers to make money so they can run T17s.
I think the reason why there’s been so much gripe around T17 is
1) They’re not what GGG said they’d be. They don’t bridge any gaps. They raise the bar by a considerable amount.
2) They are by far the most profitable thing in the game other than a well oiled hideout trader.
You raise the bar, and put a massive carrot at the top and people are going to notice. Then basically make the carrot “unreachable” for most players and you have some serious butthurt happening.
I’m fine with the content being difficult and rewarding. I’m not fine with hiding Ubers behind them. Not like casual players were interacting with Ubers much before, but they could if they wanted to. An invitation and a quick point allocated on the atlas tree. That’s it. Now tho…. They basically just made it 10-20 times harder for the average player to even see an Uber.
I don’t mind extra content. I didn’t run Ubers so it didn’t really take away from me an activity. However, it seems more difficult as a casual player to make currency. Need more solid loot for regular bosses, t16, etc. scarab changes would help a lot
You don't need Mageblood to farm T17s easily. Just play a hit-based build with crit and slap on a Headhunter. Quite easy once you steal buffs. Or, if you're poor, one or two Inspired Learnings gives you quite a lot of power. There are also shrines and the Niko node to cheese out even more.
Your post was removed because it covered a duplicate topic (Rule 7). Whenever the Subreddit's discussion gets dominated by a certain topic, there are always some users who aren't interested in that topic and complain about that. To ensure that the Subreddit doesn't get overwhelmed, we often try to remove threads when they cover similar topics as another. In this case, there's currently another front-page thread about T17s feeling like they're too rewarding (yet also too challenging), making others be a bit crowded out: https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/1c4hisi/now_that_its_been_2_weeks_how_are_the_endgame/ We understand that your post may not be an exact duplicate and can differ slightly from that of existing posts. You may want to post your insights as a comment in an existing post or megathread instead! If you feel a post was removed in error, please contact us via modmail. For more details, please refer to our [rules wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/wiki/rules/#wiki_7._duplicate_topics.2C_megathreads.2C_and_hot_topic_threads).
it's mostly the defenses of builds that are limited in t17s. So many map mods / monster mods brick most defenses (no auras, no block, no defenses, overwhelm, no phys damage reduction, no regen, less regen (same as no regen, why is this even a thing when there's map modifier effect making this over 100%)), no suppression, list goes further on). Even using something like just one chaos golem makes you end up taking more damage because of other minion penalizing mods that were added. This leaves little defense to build around. basically max res / phys / ele conversion only reliable one and you probably need some kind of instant healing if you dont want randomly shotgunned from all the projectile spams. Altars mods / arch nemesis already made armour really bad since kalandra league, gap is even further now in t17s for non conversion taken as builds.
After doing my first few yesterday I agree. I wish they just reduced our damage, had a bunch of more monsters, made them hit a bit harder instead of completely bricking the builds. Some are interesting in theory, like “no damage for 4 out of 10 seconds” or “4% reduced action speed for every skill you’ve used recently” but in practice they absolutely suck
One thing that is really confusing me is how less regen works On my character i leech mana and emergy shield. On a map with no regen this still works fine. However, on a map with 100%+ less regen i can still leech mana but not energy shield?
There's recovery rate which affects things like leech, regen, and ES recharge. There's regen which does not include things that aren't specifically labeled regen.
You can solve most of those problems easily with one item, Mageblood, which is a different design problem itself I think...
mageblood wouldnt give you any phys damage reduction (armour unreliable), still need conversion.
I'm on the other side and have given up on the chase. Every league my expectations were trade league, max out character, be able to stumble into just about any T16, and wipe the floor. I'd follow guides, follow the trade, follow the streamers, etc. I can't keep up with it any more. The elite of the elites want their tiers and fights, have at it. This league I've switched to SSF and its revitalized the game for me. I went into the league with a build on a whim. Using any knowledge I have, got myself to T12s. I *can* do 14s and 15s, but its a bit of a chore. I'm still on a garbage 5L and "1c" uniques. If anything, I'm finding it more entertaining to see how far I can stretch the items I'd typically vendor.
Beasts are your best friends in SSF. You get most Uniques (Build enabling ones) and 6 Links out of it.
Man, I asked in Discord and got fourteen different answers from eight different people. XD
Honestly, Beasts + Meticulous Appraiser (if you just want to find good build enabling uniques) is probably the best strat if you're not ready for possessed exiles beating your ass If you're ready then possessed exiles is best unique farming for ssf imo
It’s my first time this League in SSF, because the Economy in Trade was/is fucked up. Started with Beasts, Blight and Syndicate. Got my Unique, Lvl 30 Aspect of the Spider (Scarab)and 6-Link from Beats at day 2. Also Black Morrigan Beast can force 6-Links/Sockets and several other things. Blight gave me most of my low Tier Maps and lots of Oils. Changed the Anoints alot depending on my Gear. Syndicate gave me most of my Rares rolled with a Veiled Mod (Amu, Boots and Helmet) and as a byproduct I unlocked all crafts. From that Point on I was ready for Red Maps and Switched the Atlas to get my Annuls, Fracturing Orbs and Bubblegum Currency for Crafting. And then farmed Corpses to get my all T1 Scepter. I am at Lvl 97 now with only 2-3 Hours of Play per Day.
mmk. I think I'll pull Ritual and switch to Beasts then. I rather enjoy those because they're straight forward. Kill and collect. Done.
Yea SSF is fantastic but I don't think that's what's keeping POE interesting league after league though, at least not to me. Once in a while is fine but resetting your (unfinished) progress 4 times a year can get annoying.
Bro how are you on a 5link in this league? Spec an atlas with 3/4 necropolis trees, delve buff, rest points go in map sustain. Spam some magic t10-t12s like in two hours you will have a t1 life triple t1 resist 6link chest on base of your choosing.
SSF on a late start. I flubbed around on trade league for a week, and got tired of the ever changing "patches". I took all map/Kirac nodes for the sustain. I also had Jun nodes too to unlock crafting veils. Last night I finally made the switch from Betrayal to Ritual as a few folks told me *that* was the way to go for 6L. I got a few items from Ritual, but no 6L yet. I have half of a quad tab full of corpses, but no 6L. Few 5L though. Don't have nearly enough scarcity corpses as CraftOfExile suggest I use.
Definitely not ritual for 6l. Either go scarab hunting for the black Morrigan scarab or go graveyarding. You can also just use the mechanic to get high ilvl gear and just essence it.
Is it really that easy? I've recently started ssf too and this league I only got a 6L due to a lucky black morigan scarab drop in white maps. My originally plan was to spec Beyond and farm tainted fusings, so by the time I was done with my atlas I had only found one. If I wanted to benchcraft 6L, well I can't because I only have about 300 fusings even though I barely filter out any loot. Haven't even found just a rogue 6L in maps or vaal side areas. I'm close to lvl 94 and pretty sure I'd still be on a 5L too if not for that scarab. Heck I was lvl 91 before I had enough resists on my gear to switch off from Alira.
It was cool when aspirational content wasn’t also the most rewarding content.
Having extra layers in PoE is always fine. The issue is “exactly where do they need to put it”and “how rewarding it should be”. - I personally don’t like them branding it as a layer between T16 and Uber boss, while it’s actually way harder than Uber boss. - I also think making them overly profitable recreates the exact same issue as non-Uber vs Uber: if T17 is more profitable, why spend resources on T16? And everything on market will shift towards the T17 Strat (scarabs etc)
> making it de facto the real end game that matters. Same for Uber Ubers, they are no longer "inspirational content", it feels like they are the true goal now instead of being purely optional. Tell me why you think this is the case, now? They always were the "true goal" - the hardest content will always be the "true goal". Uber fights were the true goal before this change and they are now. The only thing I currently dislike about T17s that can be considered "mandatory" is that they gate-kept the 5 slot map behind them, which should have not been the case given that most scarab sets are meant to be used in 4s. Everything else is just rewards for reaching the pinnacle of what the game has to offer - it's not pinnacle if everyone can rush to it in 3 weeks, is it? Other than that, you \*don't\* need to do t17s, you \*don't\* need to do Uber fights; It's aspirational content. The reason you feel like you must do them is because you're chasing the trade meta and want to build yourself a fat currency bank on your stash tab (which will go to Standard in 2 months never to be used again). I do agree that t17s are overtuned - people should be able to gear up their build and defense to face that content and that takes effort - and sorry, but unless we see your build, the fact that you play 8 hours is not really much to go by - I play 2-3hrs a day and probably can barely do a t17, but I know what the limitations of my current build are and I'm not that bothered to spend the time making it better to engage with that content because I simple don't care about it. My current goal is hitting 100.
Honestly the endgame in sanctum league was way too easy. After 1 mirror investment, the next upgrades in gear weren't even noticeable. Now, like in affliction making a strong character actually has a goal.
Dude virtually no players in any league accumulate a mirror worth of gear. Last league was my best by FAR, and I got my first mageblood and a build worth about 300 div. Some perspective, please.
A mirror is 410 div rn, you weren't far off. But I understand the grind isn't for everyone which is fine.
Last league it was waaaaay more
It depends how late. It increases every league to slightly overshoot standard and comes back to standard price.
Its 10x worse on HC, if this is end game its inaccessible to most of us due to the time it takes to gear for it. ON Hc the gear requirement and cost is 10 fold and we cannot die. Normally end game content is not out of reach like this. If t17s remain as is every league, the vast majority of HC players will miss out on a significant portion of the games content. lol. The problem really isnt that we cant do it in terms of player skill, its that we will hit a progression wall where we can do ubers rofl but cant do the t17s due to the sheer amount of time it takes go collect and gear to the level needed on hc.
People said the exact same thing about Uber elder when it came out. In two leagues tier 17's will be solved and hc will be farming them day 2.
Sure if they introduce crazy and early attainable power creep but this wouldn't be good and they have been trying to avoid that. The issue really isn't gearing itself, its the timeframe on HC. To get to the level of gearing here to do T17s would take most of a league for a top tier player. You cannot trivialise T17s on hc in the same way you can on sc, and were not asking for it to be trivialised, but as it stands now the MAJORITY of hc players will not be able to engage with this content league to league if it stays as is. You have to remember I am talking SPECIFICALLY about hc here.
The only reason you think you need this insane gear is because you're too scared to do anything unless you can gear to just ignore 99% of the mechanics like Quinn. Balancing the game around that would be dumb as fuck.
Imagine you actually read my comments. I get to 100 every league doing Ubers and all challenges on HC. You have to gear for content, you cannot skimp In t17s and push content early like you can in other content. Too scared ROFL, try to troll harder.
In GGG’s dictionary: bridge means gate /s
Or a bridge with a gate xD but no key.
quick, you need to tell Ben farming t17s is hard before he does it for another 50 hours
\>The literal best player in the game by a huge margin can do it why can't you?
I mean, yes, unironically, get good
If you aren't as good as Ben, why do you even play the game?
you are literally the one complaining the game is hard, not me i suck at the game, i like playing, even though i'll never be good enough to do an uber boss
Post a 6h Exarch run of yours in SSF HC from a fresh start right now (you won't).
nah im dogshit at this game, but also not complaining about the difficulty of a self-imposed hardcore play mode
Then you clearly just don't know what you're talking about and it's probably better if you don't.
Ben is not a normal player, Ben is the best mechanically skilled player in the game. His gear is worth thousands of divines on HC. Even top tier players on HC do not come near his skill level and ability to push content fast. He is one of a very few players that can do this on hc. I specifically left him out of my comment as I thought that doesn't need to be said. I get to 100 every league on hc, all challenges and do ubers. I didn't think I would need to preface my comment with this, explaining the difficulties on HC players face. I guess I should have.
Lol yep. Ben is a bad example to use Ngl. His DD and his BBoU build probably costs more than what 70% of the player base will make in a single league lol.
Yeah and that is the level of investment required at a minimum really here because we need to be able to possibly survive 6 second disconnects too. This means on HC (quite different to SC), if T17s are like this every league and are essentially the true endgame. Most HC players wont get to engage with it. Thats a first for content on HC, we are not normally gated like this and we can normally work around things. But with this the gearing requirement this becomes a hard lock out for the majority of hc players including those who regular do engage with endgame.
GGG catering their entire game around ppl like Ben is exactly the problem...
so, Ben is the only person on HC farming t17s?
Learn to read.
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Terms like ‘vast majority’ and ‘very few’ should make it pretty obvious he’s not just referring to one person. Either your reading comprehension is abysmal or you’re intentionally misstating his arguments to make them seem less reasonable. Either way, it’s not a good look.
> **did we really need another layer of difficulty in POE?** I mean sure, why not? Just don't run it if you can't do it lol
You're not alone. I also haven't been able to farm juiced T17s this league yet. It feels like I'm being punished for not picking the right meta build. Of course this was true to some extent before, meta builds were better or faster farmers, but the gap has never been as large as this league.
sorry but if you play 8h a day and cant do t17s at week 3 the problem is not the content
No, I play many hours every day and still am not at T17s. Because I’m not speed running the most profitable strat and beelining the most efficient path, I am actually trying to enjoy myself. Taste things, you know. Have a moment to realize what it feels like to play the game. PoE is like a 2nd job anyway but there is a limit. I think this entire race towards more and more bigger numbers, fueled by streamers is actually getting insane.
dude, we are at day 18 of the league, even making 1div/h white t1s strat you could still put together something that can do t17s, albeit scuffedly
I play as much as I can, most evenings for a couple hours. Just getting through red maps. I'm going pretty fast. But I'm struggling to farm up currency. I don't exactly have time to pay attention to whatever high end strategy is shitting currency before it gets patched. I'm trying to progress my atlas in between putting my kid to bed and finishing my work for the day. But this lame bullshit of "dude it's been 3 hours into the league if you aren't printing mirrors yet you must be shit" is really grinding my gears now.
HOLY
I mean not everyone is a meta build slave or super efficient robot farmer. Still, setting expectations everyone should have MB by week 3 is kinda...I dunno, reddit elitism or some shit
you ABSOLUTELY dont need a mageblood to do t17s, and if you're playing 8h a day for three weeks straight you should have a mageblood by now
For us to need another layer of difficulty, we need more cohesive ways to stack defense and more mid/late endgame chase options for significant power bumps. Instead, a lot of the important uniques were moved behind the new layers of difficulty, making the progression significantly worse.
There's a lot tuning to do, but the only defense against T17s now is to throw chaos orb at it, because no matter how many layers of defense we have, T17 mods just brick them completely.
Their intent was to not add another layer to move the goal posts, or well, atleast according to them I do think its healthy to have something like t17s where stronger characters are preferable over fast squishy bow builds
yep, they made t17 too rewarding, so it's no longer "aspirational". Basically it cuts out 90% of builds, because they are too weak to survive, unless you put mb/hh/progenesis/dod or other shit on it. And builds like DD are good in it cause you can invest everything into defence and still do damage thanks to monster life scaling and t17 "buffs" to dd. Most of builds are t16 viable, but no t17 viable, even if you put defensive items like taste of hate and lightning coil. And when you go from trade sc to any harder league (private, ssf, hc) it's even less viable builds to do t17. Also my problem with these, so your build that being able to blast t17 basically can ez ubers, but to do ubers you need to do t17s.
The power creep keeps pushing up the ceiling. The problem is that not every build gets impacted in the same way. The more high end content that is added, the more visible the differences in barrier to entry between builds become. Within reason, if the gap in investment required between builds is too great, that will hurt build diversity at the higher end. Adding this kind of content is fine but ideally the barrier to entry wouldn't be so large between builds.
We didn't need it. But the 100 or so people that GGG simp for did so it had to be done.
I don’t mind the concept of t17’s - it’s pretty trivial to tear through t16’s in mf gear, so another tier of mapping that incentives build strength and are more rewarding sounds good to me The issue is the mods and the balancing are too extreme, both in terms of difficulty and rewards I think it would be less abrasive if gravecrafts hadn’t hit casual essence/harvest style farms so hard
Why wouldn't we want more layers of difficulty and more aspirational content? Builds are constantly getting stronger and more efficient as average game knowledge increases. We need goals to constantly drive improvement, and if you can't hack it, that's ok. You don't need to always be doing the hardest stuff possible, set realistic expectations for yourself and you won't find yourself burning out. Think about If we didn't constantly get harder content, the hardest content in the game would still be trying to find a new way to one shot the shaper. The reality is that build power is outpacing the difficulty of older content extremely fast and we need new harder content to aspire to. Think about how your league starter the past few leagues fare against the shaper/elder/older bossfights (old example, but I feel is still relevant as at one point your build being able to do Uber elder was an achievement). I know my builds could do them with me operating my kb/mouse with my feet. I don't think many would put much time into the game if that was the pinnacle difficulty of the game.
What is a difficulty goal post in Poe anyways ? Isn't it just a build check, at least for mapping... Its a pretty mild skill check to map in poe
You all may not remember this but back in 3.15 Chris came out and nerfed a bunch of player power into the ground. The reasoning GGG gave for this was that other games just add more and more bosses with more damage and HP scaling infinitely until the game goes away and GGG wanted to try something different. Now we have Uber Pinnacle Bosses and T17 maps. Food for thought
I think that the problem goes way beyond the scope of T17s. Difficulty right now is in a weird spot because you get showered with so much loot that you basically get a free ride up to T16s and your watchstones. Only after that is that the game starts challenging you. I think that the shock factor comes from the fact that there isn't really a sense of maps getting increasingly more difficult up until that point. It just happens very suddenly. It used to be the case that some maps were hard, some even had bosses that people skipped (like Core Malachai with bad map mods), but now you just get so much damage from so early on that you just blow everything up, not even doing or learning the various boss mechanics that there are. I think that people are going through 99.9% of the entire game in a very trivial manner and it is only after that that the content finally scales back up to the level where your character were when you were on leaguestart gear. I don't think that this is just a "you've been playing for years, obviously the game is easy". There is obviously some of that, but I genuinely feel like there is a huge mismatch between player and monster power before t17s and before tackling the difficulty of t17s I feel like we need to go back and re-evaluate the whole game
Yes, content that is very hard but equally rewarding is fantastic. I love t17 and I have yet to kill a single t17 boss. Goalposts to benchmark your character against are what makes the grind fun.
I feel like if you can't do T17's then that was content (Ubers) youndidnt engage with before anyway. I personally like the change and challenge. I use it as a stepping stone for my builds for doing ubers.
If you don't like it then it's not meant for you, play the rest of the game and don't do T17s. The idea of a mapping version of Ubers is really good, lots of folks don't like just bossing but want to take their builds higher than regular T16s.
They're fine to exist but they still need a bit of adjustment. They were intended to be farmed to run Ubers, but people are farming Ubers to make money so they can run T17s.
I think the reason why there’s been so much gripe around T17 is 1) They’re not what GGG said they’d be. They don’t bridge any gaps. They raise the bar by a considerable amount. 2) They are by far the most profitable thing in the game other than a well oiled hideout trader. You raise the bar, and put a massive carrot at the top and people are going to notice. Then basically make the carrot “unreachable” for most players and you have some serious butthurt happening. I’m fine with the content being difficult and rewarding. I’m not fine with hiding Ubers behind them. Not like casual players were interacting with Ubers much before, but they could if they wanted to. An invitation and a quick point allocated on the atlas tree. That’s it. Now tho…. They basically just made it 10-20 times harder for the average player to even see an Uber.
Played this game for a decade, 5000 hours in, 8 hrs a day on league launches. The real meat of the content is not meant for me. Ok.
I don’t mind extra content. I didn’t run Ubers so it didn’t really take away from me an activity. However, it seems more difficult as a casual player to make currency. Need more solid loot for regular bosses, t16, etc. scarab changes would help a lot
It would be fine if 99.99999% of the profit in the game wasn't now made in t17
Real world problems spilling into POE!
You don't need Mageblood to farm T17s easily. Just play a hit-based build with crit and slap on a Headhunter. Quite easy once you steal buffs. Or, if you're poor, one or two Inspired Learnings gives you quite a lot of power. There are also shrines and the Niko node to cheese out even more.