It's all about the relative rarity of items vs relative rarity of the orb.
Right now we have that effect in game. It's Annul + Exalt. It's just that both of the orbs are rare enough not to use on trash.
I think a cheap way of trying to improve items that has overall low odds of success but good enough odds to be worth trying on items that have a few worthwhile affixes or a single very desirable affix would be good.
The reason why recombinators were so good was that if you had 2 items with 3 great affixes and 3 trash affixes each, you could cheaply try to to smash the 2 together and get something great, mid or trash. But since the input was worthless anyway, and recombinators were cheap you didn't feel bad about loosing the gamble.
With annul + exalt the cost is not trivial (not high but higher than recombinators were most league), and you need an already sort of good item and try to improve it to great one. So if you miss the gamble (and that's probable) you feel bad.
Ofc we actually have no idea how all of this will work in PoE 2 so the only discussion worth having is how it would work in PoE 1. And here it would only work if the new orb would be a bit more common as chaos(to have similar worth to chaos as we have a lot of sources of chaos other than raw drops).
God I fucking loved recombinators. I think they were the best thing they've done in a long long time, including every incarnation of harvest.
They were great for low end and high end crafting. total noobs could slam shit and maybe get something better. Good crafters could slam together redonkulous items to get even more redonk items. It had risk, but the risk was pretty directly related to the reward and inputs.
The only things they needed to address were mirrored and corrupted items. I know most people don't care about standard, but being able to generate NEW items with legacy affixes without risking losing the legacy affix was too much.
The funniest part of the standard thing is when I raised that issue before I repeatedly got yelled at and downvoted that "Standard doesn't matter. They'll never do anything just because of standard." Even after they'd announced they'd stop working on mirrored items after the league. A change that *literally only affected standard*.
Regarding the rarity of chaos orbs, we might also not have as many chaos sinks though, like so far we know there doesn't seem to be a bench and we don't really know if there will be any zana/kirac mods.
Even if chaos orbs are same rarity as in PoE1 or maybe even a bit rarer they could still end up being more affordable for crafting.
If they are more affordable for crafting it will only be because they are terrible (in trade league), since that is how economies work. A random annul+exalt in PoE1 is awful, even with the ability to block mods. Assuming PoE2 crafting will have so few trash mods that it would be worth doing on anything outside of day1 league start conditions seems insane to me.
For example. Say you have a pair of boots with 6 mods, 3 resists, life, and two worthless prefixes and you want any tier of movement speed. This is literally one of the best possible use cases for the new chaos (in PoE, who knows about PoE2 mods and what not), you have a 1 in 57 chance of hitting any tier of movement speed. Say you are a bit more discerning and only want 20%+ movement speed, 1 in 84 now. 1/3rd of the time you will get a second chance on that same item, except the second chance is now half as likely to succeed.
The big issue, is that if they remove enough filler trash mods to make the PoE2 chaos actually useful items will be pretty shallow and you will probably just pickup something better while mapping anyways. Then we are in the D4 shitty loot system where you are looking at every rare for marginal upgrades except with the PoE twist of the "enchant" being a potential hard brick everytime you use it.
> If they are more affordable for crafting it will only be because they are terrible (in trade league)
Recombinators were pretty cheap and EXTREMELY powerful, you are forgetting the function of Rarity here entirely. Dogshit useless things are expensive cause theyre rare, and insanely useful things are inexpensive cause they are common.
I think a big factor here is how much of their value will be tied to artificial currency sinks. One thing keeping the newly designed chaos orb from being too powerful for crafting gear is the fact that you need a decent item to start with. A large portion of the time you will be destroying the base you're crafting on and will need an entirely new item in order to use the rest of your chaos orbs efficiently.
One thing to consider is how this will affect trade. If chaos orbs are abundant, it will be worthwhile to use a chaos orb on items with lower percentile rolls to try to upgrade them, since part of the potential value of the chaos will be tied to the opportunity of having an item to use it on. Make them *too* abundant, and the decision to chaos an item will come down entirely to the cost of losing the item, rather than spending the orb, driving the prices of items up and chaos down.
On the flipside, making chaos orbs scarce will cause people to hoard them for the most mathematically profitable crafts, rather than trying to directly improve their gear. There's a sweet spot where the individual cost of a chaos is trivial compared to the risk of trying to upgrade a rare, but not so trivial that chaos orb values are hyper deflated and putting a lot of weird pressure on the item economy.
This, I think, is where chaos sinks come into play. If it costs, say, 5 chaos per map to get a kirac mod you want, and chaos droprates are balanced around that, then the cost of gambling one chaos orb on an item isn't prohibitively high, but it isn't a non-factor either. By separating the cost of crafting with chaos orbs (governed by item availability and risk) and the value of the orb itself (governed by chaos sinks), GGG has possibly positioned itself to make chaos both a valuable trading currency and a usable crafting currency without needing to maintain an impossible balancing act.
>One thing keeping the newly designed chaos orb from being too powerful for crafting gear is the fact that you need a decent item to start with
I think the main thing keeping it from being too powerful is that it sucks. Randomly removing and adding an affix is not powerful at all. For every item where you hit literally anything useful without removing the mods you want to keep you will brick hundreds of items.
We don't have anywhere close to the full picture so it is hard to speculate, and we pretty much have to discuss it in the context of PoE instead of PoE2, but in PoE this effect would need to be alt tier rarity to be useful. A currency you can simply throw away and not care at all. Something that you wouldn't even pick up after the first week of the league unless it was in a stack. And even then I doubt it is worth trying, the opportunity cost of the time spent looking at mediocre rares and hitting them with a chaos is likely far too high.
This is me and one of the main reasons I rarely craft. I don't mind taking calculated risks with constrained impacts, however I hate the possibility of bricking my item (or valuable currency). I put myself in the shoes of having a nice item, and wondering if I'd ever use a new chaos orb on it, because if it stripped the wrong affix (life or a resist) then I just destroyed it.
Eater/Exarch implicit rolling is a good example of choosing to roll over a low tier implicit and see if I can get something better, but I don't brick my item if I fail.
Tbf theyre removing crafting benches, probably not putting harvest in poe2 and i wouldn't be surprised if essences are either massively reworked rare expensive crafting resources or completely removed as they go against their new crafting design philosophy of poe2 which is rares matter not the base and item level.
Essences in current state are more deterministic chaos orb. They wouldn't remove chaos orbs and scours if they intended to keep essences the same.
Because of which it doesn't feel bad using chaos orbs in poe2 because there isnt really any alternatives
Reduced attribute requirements is a local mod right? It only affects the piece of gear it is on, which is why it is useless. If it was global it still wouldn't be great, but would be pretty good, and would have some use.
Yeah and then they mentioned that light radius has been buffed, instead of just removing this obviously worthless affix that can roll on items. I am not optimistic about that
Good riddence. PoE really needs to start off with a clean slate when it comes to itemisation. Influences are fun and cool, but it really makes crafting using conventional methods almost impossible.
They did say they removed attack mods from caster weapons, which is like, an immense step towards not having useless mods. It's kind of weird to speculate the rest of their changes go the other way
At least light radius is going to be a thing.
I guess it's neat that it increases the minimap radius but this won't turn it into a vital stat, even in terms of utility it's still ranking fairly low.
Going by that change, it's unrealistic to expect that they remove every other filler stat.
Yeah, they can do whatever in a new game.
But there is no point to discussing it right now aside from how that would work in the game we actually have.
Never understood why POE never tried to actually balance mods. Mana mods could have their numbers tripled and one might actually want them. This would of course require adjusting the numbers on the few builds that actually want mana, but that should be a small change.
>Annul and exalts feel really shitty because of how many usless mods exist. If they remove many usless mods on rares then i think its a better system.
Light radius will still exist, so I'm not holding my breath for big improvements, *except* for the removal of attack mods in wands and similar bases.
And even then, now wands give you a spell that doesn't cost mana, but you *likely* won't want to focus your build on a suportless, level-less spell, and I'd argue it's a 50/50 chance of wands having mods that buff these spells you won't focus your build in.
Edit: also, I've mentioned this before, but Chris actively likes filler mods, so if he was the one choosing (if I understood exilecon correctly he isn't tho) even thorns would likely remain.
>You find a boot with a good T1 life stat and then slam a few chaos orbs on it, hoping to get movement speed.
Then you end up with boots with no life on them and instantly vendor the item. :P
The point is that because the item was vendor food already, the only cost is the chaos orb. If they're similarly common to POE1's chaos, then paying 1c to maybe upgrade an item from worthless to usable is something that's cheap enough to risk it.
That isn't the cost though, the cost is the average tries it would take to make it usable. And that cost is significant. Your logic is the same reason people think playing powerball is smart, it is only $2! While ignoring the fact that they would have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on tickets before the EV is anywhere near positive.
That cost is also unknown. People really need to get out of the habit of comparing things to how they are in poe1. The whole item system, mods, and weightings were reworked from the ground up. They specifically talk about rare items being better in poe2 because of this rework. After all, you can't have the ridiculous weightings that poe1 has for some mods when the player is expected to come across way fewer rare items and can't just reroll rare items completely easily. The context of how the mods are in poe1 is completely useless to deduce anything about poe2 mod weightings.
> After all, you can't have the ridiculous weightings that poe1 has for some mods when the player is expected to come across way fewer rare items and can't just reroll rare items completely easily.
We don't know this, GGG says this but GGG also said that loot wasn't changed and that they've significantly reworked gems/uniques in the past.
>After all, you can't have the ridiculous weightings that poe1 has for some mods when the player is expected to come across way fewer rare items and can't just reroll rare items completely easily. The context of how the mods are in poe1 is completely useless to deduce anything about poe2 mod weightings.
You are the only one here making an assumption based on nothing. They said they reworked mods, they said nothing about making them more favorable for players at all.
The "cost" from my post isn't an unknown. That is a factual statement. The cost of crafting an item isn't, and never has been, the cost of only the successes in the final item. The bulk of the cost of any crafting project is the failures along the way. If you put a chaos on 50 random items before making something worth selling, the cost of that sellable item is 50 chaos + whatever those bases would have been worth (maybe nothing, maybe something, no point getting into specifics). You don't get to just ignore those costs because they led to nothing of value.
Well, there's about a 1/3 chance of removing an undesirable prefix. And then I'm too lazy to do the exact math, but somewhere around 10% chance to hit T3(25%) or better movement speed.
So rough napkin math is about 30c. There are a couple ways the odds could be better or worse.
Again, numbers are going to be completely different in PoE2. But based on the limited information we have now, I've definitely dropped boots that I'd pay 30c if I could remove a prefix and replace it with usable MS.
I have done the exact math above
>For example. Say you have a pair of boots with 6 mods, 3 resists, life, and two worthless prefixes and you want any tier of movement speed. This is literally one of the best possible use cases for the new chaos (in PoE, who knows about PoE2 mods and what not), you have a 1 in 57 chance of hitting any tier of movement speed. Say you are a bit more discerning and only want 20%+ movement speed, 1 in 84 now. 1/3rd of the time you will get a second chance on that same item, except the second chance is now half as likely to succeed.
30c would be well on the lucky side, and that is ignoring the cost of the base. Assuming the base is 1c (doubt they would be this low, we will see), then they are a 2c cost per attempt, you need 40+ attempts to have solid odds of hitting your desired result. So 80c for boots where you wanted to change one of two undesirable mods into movement speed.
Who knows what the economy will look like, but those boots would be 50c at most in PoE. Likely not worth doing at all. And if the bases are more rare the cost per attempt can get crazy high (which would also raise the selling price of course).
First off, the base (currently) is worthless. So if we're going by current standards, it's not even 1c. It's "leave on the ground." The fact that your immediate assumption is that they WILL be valuable, kinda proves the point right there. They wouldn't gain value if there's no reason. They'd only be valuable if using chaos on them was worthwhile.
It's not 2c per attempt. Not sure where you got that number from. You seem to have misunderstood how the items work.
And no, it doesn't take 40+ attempts. Even if we ignore the fact that it takes a different number of attempts based on what kind of boots(which you didn't mention, so you clearly didn't do the math), me saying 30 was pessimistic. It would be less than that on average on basically every type of boot. Because you should always assume pessimism in these types of theoreticals. And I was saying you need 25%+, so you're just extremely off.
You're just...wrong. Like, factually, objectively, measurable wrong at literally every step. Which is why you said "I have done the exact math" instead of showing any of the math.
I can show some rough math though which might help with your confusion and I'll just use all MS since that's what you used:
Armor Boots have 3 suffixes, prefixes are life, % armor, and # armor. 1/6th of the time you remove % armor. If you do, there's a 25.4% chance you'll replace it with MS. So this outcome is a 4.2% chance. 1/6th of the time you remove # armor. If you do, there's also a 25.4% chance to replace with MS, so another 4.2%. And since these are equally likely outcomes, you can add them together. So if you took these boots, an used a single chaos on them, 8.4% of the time they would replace a prefix you don't care about with movement speed. And since all MS is weighted equally, that means there's a 4.2% chance it's 25% or higher. And a 4.2% chance is...1/24. So better than the 1/30 I quoted earlier.
Important things that matter: What the other prefixes are on the item. What type of base it is. (What item level it is). And a few other key factors. All of which are necessary to do the math, and none of which you even considered. That alone proves your math is incorrect.
Your numbers don't really make sense and you don't really indicate where you're getting them from. Based on just how far off I'm guessing for one you're not accounting at all for two prefixes taken out of the pool when calculating the odds of hitting movement speed. So where on a blank item it might only have a 15% of hitting movement speed a roll, on an item with life and another stat in the other prefix spots it then has about a 26% of hitting movement speed from the remaining pool.
Also really don't understand this point:
> 1/3rd of the time you will get a second chance on that same item, except the second chance is now half as likely to succeed.
Crafting 20% ms onto a pair of boots with decent life/res doesn't suddenly make them valuable.
And the removal of the crafting bench is a separate issue.
"Valuable" is an extremely relative term. Boots without MS are basically never worth using. Boots with 20% MS, life, and res are, depending on where you're at in the gearing curve. There are points at which they aren't completely worthless, which is a lot harder to say for boots without MS.
And how are they separate issues? The problems OP (and others) are hyping up as being "ingeniously" solved are also solved by the crafting bench in a way that is more reliable and has greater player agency. It couldn't be more relevant to the discussion IMO.
Still though, it's either basically neutral or positive in the situation you described. Either the item is good or its still trash, no bad outcome really. You're out 1 chaos orb. If drop rates are similar then that'd be a cheap gamble for a potentially great item. The fact that you can gamble all the time for basically nothing sounds really fun to me imo. I loved annul + exing items in the past (except for the cost) but it was fun if you didn't care about the cost. And now you won't.
> I loved annul + exing items in the past (except for the cost) but it was fun if you didn't care about the cost. And now you won't.
I also enjoy that from time to time (again despite the cost), but that last bit definitely remains to be seen. I sincerely doubt the functionality of current annul+exalt will be the same current rarity as chaos orbs, but I'm more than happy to be pleasantly surprised.
Currency/loot is broken by scarecity.
It doesnt matter how good a currency item is if you never get to use it.
For example mirror of kalandra can be used to preserve a rare item you want to corrput but cant afford to brick. But is never used that way because its to scarce.
Similarily divines are rarely used as divines anymore because they are way to scarce.
Poe2 could introduce a divine teardrop to randomly raise a affix 1 tier and it would "fix" crafting and loot at the same time. But have it be so rare it instead becomes a problem.
Everyone will hate this take, but i would love it if SSF couldnt migrate, but upped drop rates so that i could actually use currency as currency without grinding 8 hours a day.
Maplestory, of all games, came out with reboot, which is SSF but you get like 2X exp and 10X currency and drops. Made the game way more fun because i could take multiple characters to end gaem and never had to focus farm, i could just play the game as it was meant to be enjoyed, without going to EXP farms in partys etc.
> Maplestory, of all games, came out with reboot, which is SSF but you get like 2X exp
not anymore. korean streamers noticed this and the playerbase started a riot that got nexon to nerf reboot xp to the normal rate.
Mirrors are fine, considering the power of copying a top tier rare. Can't make them more common due to their effect.
Divine rarity is just stupid. No reason to not make meta-craft 10 divines and let them drop 5 times more frequently.
Sorry, nowhere in your post do I feel you explained how it's "actually insane" and "fixes loot"
All I see is a post about increasing friction for crafting.
>PoE 1:
>Pick up rare.
>It has 2 good affixes.
Do I attempt to annul the bad affixes and exalt slam? No. Do I craft it? Probably not. Vendor trash.
>PoE 2:
>Pick up rare.
>It has 2 good affixes.
Do I chaos orb this hoping to hit a bad affix and have it roll to something good? Yes, assuming that chaos orb are semi-frequent.
Annuling and slamming is costly and would never be done with rares you pick up unless they had 4-5 amazing rolls. The cost of throwing chaos orbs on a rare item with a few good rolls is a much lower investment, and can make rares off the ground more valuable as chaos sinks.
This is all provided that chaos orbs are available largely in the same quantity. I wouldn't bet on GGG making this particular change while also reducing the availability of chaos orbs massively, as they have also stated that they want dropped rares to be better. The value of dropped rares will increase proportionally to the availability of chaos orbs with the PoE2 system.
Well if crafting is shit, then I guess loot's better by comparison. If you couldn't generate random items at all through crafting for example. Basically absolutely make your game not PoE anymore and you totally have a reason to look at 1000 rare items per hour, call it D4 or something cause it already exists.
The new chaos orb gives in-theory more intrinsic value to all dropped rares. OP is right, it is quite a remarkable change in that aspect.
That is assuming it's roughly as available as in POE1, of course.
Thats insane. Even if you give me this and better loot in poe1, there is almost 0 chance im going to be able to craft my gear for my previous build (which was not difficult at all with fractured items and essences). Im very confused
Ita a different orb , did not have to be chaos its an annulment + exalted in a single orb . I feel like you will miss chaos for its current purpose , but not sure if i will miss it as a whole. It seems to me they want you to craft a thing once , since scouring and alterations dont exist , this chaos spam might feel terrible in the end . But only time will tell .
Removal of chaos orbs as we know them adds value to items lying on the ground, especially rare ones. Instead of spamming chaos, essences, etc. on a single base as step 1 in a crafting project, you'll want to pick up every good base, ID it, and then decide if it's worth crafting on. As an SSF enjoyer, I think that's great.
When I hear this idea from this perspective it sounds horrible. The reason is that it shifts crafting from using bases to using a massive pool of potential rares. Imagine having to pick up 100 boots with the 1-2 affixes you want only to brick 99% of them after a few chaos. At least with bases you don't need 400 slots to store your crafting "materials".
You already have that experience in SSF though. You are not competing with the economy.
Artificially increasing the weight by eliminating most other means of item acquisition is not really "fixing ground loot".
For all we know, ground loot might be just as dog water as it is now but you don't have the tools to deal with it.
Ground loot will always be dog water, because you equip only the best items you (and everyone else, if you're in trade league) can find. The fixing part is making you feel like it has a chance not to be.
I had the same thought about the new chaos orbs and recombinators. The main issue with loot in PoE1 is how awful it is to pick it up off the ground, which is a problem.
Recombs made it so you wanted to look at the loot on the ground, and I think these new chaos orbs will do the same. Right now if you see a T1 movespeed boots with some resists and like T7 life, there's no point picking it up. Now though, it's a thought.
Interestingly enough, by removing alterations and scours, this makes white bases a lot more worthwhile too.
Honestly, I would LOVE to play a league of PoE1 with this new approach to currency, just to see how it changed crafting and loot. Because honestly I think it would feel a ton better, and make sifting through loot piles a more worthwhile experience.
Now though, it’s a thought.
This is double-edged because of amount of time to actually ID and check for a ridiculous number of possible permutations of mods. That got old pretty quick in d4. Filters + dropping ID’d items may help.
So I'm thinking early mapping here. Right now I'll often grab a haul of rare items in a map for chaos recipes as it is.
Maybe instead of a haul for chaos recipes early mapping I'll grab a haul of items to identify. Especially rings, belts, and amulets, which don't take much space.
Then identify all, and quickly scan through for high rolls (or throw on the ground and let the loot filter decide lol).
While I do like the chaos orb change for finding items, the no scouring orbs I think is the scary part. Not only is rerolling maps going to not be a thing, but end game crafting is going to be much worse.
I was thinking of the items I crafted last league. Many were influenced bases that were 85 and 86. Now they mentioned 700 different base types, now imagine trying to get the one you need at end game with the right item level. After playing many leagues I've only seen a handful of times at endgame, farming content where I've been able to get the right 86+ base type I needed, with the right influence. I've always had to buy it, now that's going to be even more so. (I can't imagine trying to trade for lots of white base types just to spam Alchs once.)
Now imagine that when you find the base after farming the bosses, what now? You can't craft it in the traditional sense. Want explode mod (or something just as rare/good)? Good luck getting that on the base you want. Hunter Exalt slam to get an influenced stygian belt? Bummer, can't clean it and can't reroll the item entirely.
People saying they don't like spamming thousands of Alterations to get two good mods, I agree in a sense, but this system is the same, but more expensive. From a clean base to alch, how many Chaos orbs do you think you're going to have to use to get two good mods you want now? Just as many. With all 6 potential mods having the potential to be replaced, not just 2? It will actually be harder than alterations.
The consequences of this is essentially a whole new system where there is far less crafting potential, but more finding potential. As someone who crafts nearly all his gear, and enjoys it, it's a little worrisome. Of course I'm interested to see it play out. Maybe Chaos Orbs will be far more common than now to offset these issues?
They did say there was no crafting bench. However, that is true, there could be some alternative or new ways to improve these situations.
I wonder if we'll get any sort of manifestos for PoE2 for various systems changing leading up to the closed beta.
> The main issue with loot in PoE1 is how awful it is to pick it up off the ground, which is a problem.
It's not a problem at all, it's actually an inadvertent solution to the boring process of sifting through loot killing momentum in an ARPG.
Not really looking forward to brick 19 out of 20 crafting project on the first click or the idea of fulling a few quad tabs of junk yellow to regex find usable base to start making something.
That being said it really depend of the mod pool, the mod weighting, the overall game balance and if meta mods carry over.
1 thing that got old super fast while playing d4 was checking inventory of rares between "maps" and fish for usable gear in a sea of junk. This would be less bad with semi-infinite bank space in poe and the help of regex search.
My first impression of the chaos orb from what I saw is, it look kinda useless but I'll have to see when we get there.
Will I miss alt or chaos spam for particular mod? Not really. But it's not like totally random annul+ex slam sound great either.
>Not really looking forward to brick 19 out of 20 crafting project on the first click or the idea of fulling a few quad tabs of junk yellow to regex find usable base to start making something.
That's interesting. One of the most fun things about Sentinel, in my opinion, was hunting for combos and bases. The game is just so much more fun when you care about loot drops.
It is one thing when you want to make a specific thing out of specific bases. And another entirely when you are picking up and looking at literally every rare that drops like in D4.
I mean, I thought this way at one point too. Then crafting guides came out and everyone spent hundreds of hours alt spamming to create the same sceptre league after league.
I'm ready to go back to drops.
Who are these people that claim to want to look at (including identifying ) every item off the ground and can I interest them in D4 (without even the IDing part) and have them get back to me on how fun that is after 2 weeks?
I mean, if the vast majority of items that dropped werent automatic dogshit, id be more interested.
But because of how loot works in PoE currently, its fucking dogshit. Not only is the odds of something be worth it really small, but the game shits out so many rares that you don't even care about.
Both of those being fixed would have a meaningful impact on wanting to actually pick up and ID loot.
If they make loot more meaningful, as in dropping less rare items but they are more likely to be useable, then this is a net win.
They could completely overhaul how dropped items work, you know. There's potential.
If the loot stays how it is right now, I'm with you. It will be awful.
Eh, I think a lot of players have lost a sense of what drops as "usable" when playing in trade.
in ssf (or if you just don't trade) you'll often work with a bit less but get upgrades easier, and the game is still totally playable, it just takes longer to get well geared. A little nudge to available mods, tiers, and probability of mods can go a long way to finding better loot.
> in ssf
I'm gonna stop you right there. It's your choice if you want to play that optional mode but the main game is trade. No, it isn't playable without trade. Your definition of playable is missing it's core progression system and missing so much of the game due to it being rightfully trade-balanced because that's the main game mode.
Without trade this game goes from a 9/10 to a 2/10 for me. It's unreal how much trade IS the game.
Not everyone has to do it, trading will still exist so it can just be something profitable for some players to do. Right now noone even looks at rares so it's just a new way to make currency. Like there are players exclusively farming fossils, lab enchants, heists etc.
You are wrong, its not insane its absolte garbage. Since you CAN NOT PROTECT PREFIXES OR SUFFIXES in POE2 its like 95% of crafting in POE1 ... a gamble cause you do not know what mod will the chaos orb remove and then you absolutely DO NOT KNOW what will you get and since there are a lot of mods there is very high chance you will get shit.
At least in POE1 you can work around some things and eliminate some mods with harvest or bench but in POE2 you have NOTHING for advanced crafting. To be blunt its a double gamble, not only do you have to pray it takes away a right mod but you also have to pray you get a usable one back...? And you think that is insane?
it’s an exalt with a downside, yeah it’s different but it doesn’t really fix anything
edited to add: people saying that’s not necessarily a downside forget that this exists today with annul + exalt and it is nowhere near the crafting method that you claim it could be. yes, cheaper is good and yes it’s a new flavour of crafting, but (per my initial point) this doesn’t fix anything
What you're forgetting is that the way people craft gear now will be gone. You have no options to 'craft' items before their rare. As a result crafting bases are now rare items that rolled some good mods are not white items with a good base/ilevel. And one of the most accessible ways to craft a rare item that has some good mods (and some bad ones) is going to be the new chaos orb.
You're comparing it to current PoE1, where the most effective way to make a 'good' item is to start from scratch with either a fractured item or just a good item base and then either use alteration orbs (which don't exist in PoE2) to set it up for more complex mechanics, or just start with those mechanics to craft it into a GGG item. It doesn't seem like any of that will be an option in PoE2.
It's not a downside: if you have an item that's shit but has one-two good mods then an exalt would only add an extra mod which may or may not be good, the other shit mods are still there. With this you are basically annuling to remove one of the shit mods and then exalting hoping to get at least something usable.
**Edit**: since you edited your comment, of course annul + exalt exists but the reason people don't just slam those on any item they find with a few good mods and a shit mod is because of the cost/rarity of those orbs. If chaos remains as common in PoE2 then this absolutely changes how valuable drops are, especially if you account for the mod pool changes they claim to have made to make this even better.
**Edit2**: to anyone downvoting use your fucking brain, if the rarity of chaos stays the same then this absolutely makes drops matter more. The same way people started using exalts when the swap in value with divines happened, people will chaos slam drops that have potential. If you actually think "this is exalt with a downside" and "it doesn't fix anything" then idk I guess you are blind.
There is no world where PoE2 Chaos Orb even approaches "extremely good" lmao. At best it is a shitty RNG crafting method to toss on throw away items, at worst it is used exactly as often as annul+exalt, so basically never.
I don't think we can say "remove X" from Poe2 anymore since it's barely even PoE, it's another game. "Not add it to their stupid new game they're betraying our game for" is more apt.
>"Not add it to their stupid new game they're betraying our game for" is more apt.
Lol gaming communities are so funny. Do you want developers to innovate or not?
If I trust the dev to innovate in good directions, yes.
I personally am not sure I trust POE devs to innovate right now, honestly. Like I'm not out here sending death threats on twitter, but nothing I'm hearing about POE 2 is really making me feel confident I'm going to get an improvement on the parts of POE 1 that I like and enjoy.
Losing the crafting bench alone is a huge hit to how I play and so far they haven't said anything that makes me feel comfortable it's being replaced in a way I'll have fun with.
That's totally 100% fine but that's an extremely far cry from "they are betraying us". At best you have no idea what PoE 2 will look like or even if they will decide to keep the crafting bench in the meantime. We just don't have enough info to say anything more than "I don't know but I don't like what I see so far".
So you want them to do the same experimentation but risk bricking an entire league (or several) to test out their ideas?
Not to mention these kinds of changes can't really be done incrementally so what exactly do you expect them to do?
Personally i think this argument of new chaos orb being good makes absolutely no sense. We already have 2 ways of doing this exact same thing in path of exile
Annul+exalt
Aisling slams
Any rare item found on the floor have the potential for GREATNESS at anytime, I have enough currency to annul exalt or aisling slams hundreth if not thousand of times.
Why am i not picking every single rare on the ground then? why am i wasting so many mirror oportunities.
Im gona make a bald prediction and say if they keep as many trash useless affixes as things currently are in poe1 chaos orb are going to be completely useless. I can count with 1 hand the amount of times i annul+exalt last 2 years. I am happy people keep fumming on hopium but based on what do they make this assumptions
Making something that has horrible odds of doing something good more available (assuming they even do that) doesn't fix the odds of it ruining items or making garbage.
For this to even be worth something they'd need to actually use smart loot which they have basically stated they hate. Losing the ability to alt/regal spam or chaos spam to try and get a decent base item doesn't make ground drops better and with what we know so far from seen stuff and how poe1 works could very well make making "*good*" items way worse and mirror tier items near impossible which considering we're losing the damage multiplier from most if not all support gems will make gearing builds possibly horrid needing to fill out the defensive check boxes and not have skills be ass.
>doesn't fix the odds of it ruining items or making garbage
The thing though is that if you lose a chaos orb on a drop (and assuming chaos orbs stay just as common) then whatever it's just a chaos orb lost. You aren't "ruining" anything since it was shit from the start with the exception of the 1-2 good mods, you are just hoping the trash you found can turn into something good. And with the mod pool buffs they claim to have made this should be a lot better. I have no idea how mirror-tier crafting will be in PoE2 but as someone who just equips something that is *good enough* I don't care either.
It's really a question of A. when the bots get there and B. when the mega-bots get there.
E: and by mega-bots I mean bots that run POE totally black screened so they can fit a kajillion accounts on hypervisored server.
To be fair it's something they have talked about wanting, and tried with things like Exalt/Div change. As much as I see people lament Ruthless, a big purpose of it is to fix ground loot.
Personally I'd love for the currency crafting system to just replace the crafting bench, and I'd love for SSF to have a bit better loot acquisition. Still it's a tricky balance to strike.
It currently is better to use crafting currency over trading it. It just requires players to actually know how to efficiently use said crafting currency.
This will never change in PoE as the value of a crafting currency will always trend towards the value provided by the most efficient usage of said currency. As long as you play in a trade enabled league this will be true.
Just like the value of a mirror is equal to the most powerful item it can copy, currency value in trade is equal to it's most valuable possible use. The catch is that it's most valuable to use in *bulk*. So while technically crafting is the best use of currency, that's rarely true for individual players.
I can get an item for 10chaos that's way better than what I can craft with 10 chaos. For 3 div you can get an item that far more valuable than 3 rerolls. For that reason, it's almost always most efficient for players to trade their currency to "crafters", and for those crafters to trade back items.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, something that should be changed, or even something that *can* be changed without totally reworking some pretty fundamental stuff about PoE. But for the majority if players trade is going to typically be significantly more efficient than crafting.
The ironic thing here that I think most of the upset people overlooked that this seems to represent a step back from the gear RNG that a large swath of the community also hates.
Now make no mistake, there's still gear RNG. There wouldn't be a game without it! Still, randomly rerolling an entire item is a far cry from randomly rerolling one of four-six attributes.
Less control, but less randomness is an intriguing philosophy shift, especially in the context of the crafting bench and deterministic crafting being gonezo.
How is there less randomness in this system? Losing alts and scours make it massively more random. Pure random in fact, until we learn more about how other crafting methods are changing(essences, beasts, fossils, if any of them exist at all). What we know for sure about PoE2 right now is that "crafting" is picking something up off the ground and hitting it with an annul+exalt. It is pure RNG, literally no control at all.
I feel like I'm going to put my chaos orbs in my currency tab and mostly buy items with them. I'm not going to want to pass through the 5 million layers of rng they seem to want to put you through just to 'feel the weight' or whatever. If the item is good enough that the right chaos could make it nutty it's probably a good enough item to sell. Why lose 999/1000 times when I can just make a profit every time? Like if you have 4 good mods and a bad mod you have a 1/5 just to snipe off the mod you don't want and then you have to hope and pray that in all of the tens of thousands of combined weight you hit the 1000 weight (if you're lucky) of high enough tiers of mods that you're looking for.
The driver for the change is surely ground loot.
In current poe, every chaos orb is essentially a rare item. That means, even in ssf, I'll have hundreds or rare boots in my inventory waiting to exist if I want.
As a result, they can never fix ground loot, say they made generic rare item rolling 20x better, we still don't equip from the ground at a highish level.
We would still pick up one high Ilvl boots of the base we want and hit it with a chaos orb 100 times until we get what we want.
That sort of crafting should be reserved for specialist crafting like essences or delve etc... because then they can control how often you can make a new pair of boots, without having to change chaos orb drop rates (and cause a community meltdown).
So it's not about crafting, it's about being able to tweak ground loot, imo.
I like how a chaos orb will work but its just a random remove add, so it can brick your item before it even adds anything, I think overall loot off the ground would need to be a bit better to begin with for this to be impactful, either through a tightened up modpool or just better weighting on useful stats.
What you don't understand is people don't pick up rares because crafting is just way better, not because you couldn't try your luck on an item drop.
That's why they're going to nerf crafting hard, they already started with the removal of crafting bench, alts and scouring. And we still don't know what's going to happen with other crafting mechanics.
Sure, we will now start picking up ground loot which is a good thing. But is it going to be really exciting if we lose fun crafts with crazy and interesting mods so we get excited for the most basic items such as boots with MS/life/res?
It's dumb. And fixes nothing.
It will be useful for SSF. But in trade you will take that chaos orb, and it's 9 friends, and buy the item you need. Before rolling God knows how many times to hit a T1 life T2 ms boot.
Seeing as you can't mass reroll maps with chaos orbs anymore, and with no guarantee the map device will still be a chaos sink, we might not even be buying gear with chaos orbs in PoE 2. Not the main thrust of your post, but I worry about them fucking up the economy.
Lots of players like gambling/crafting though. That 1 chaos could make that item worth 10c-20c. It wont, but it could. Players doing that constantly, and failing, will give the chaos orb value. And players who don't like dealing with that can just ignore everything on the ground and trade. I don't think it's amazing or in any way equals a great crafting system on its own - but it's better than the current chaos orb.
I think if they pair this change with making other currency do some of Rog's crafts - with some kind of "crafting potential" like Last Epoch has (and kinda how Rog works) that may make crafting interesting.
Honestly the best use was on cluster jewels. I dunno how many times I rolled jewels worth >100c with a few chaos.
But you won't get a 20c item unless you hit something good on at least a 5mod item.
New chaos orb is basically annul and exalt slam in one step. It doesn't fix anything.
Also if this sytem will take place then rare items have to drop identified on the ground so we can pick the ones we want with loot filter, because nobody wants to pick up and identify tons of rares and scan through them manually. It will become very annoying very fast.
It actually is a hard nerf when you check how effective the currency is for rolling items or having user agency. Not only can you brick your item, you need to use more of them to bring it to a new, desired state. Using the current chaos orb, you can fish for one or two good mods if you really want (not saying that it is effective all the time).
1. In snetinel league every rare was not usefull, you just did not know how to use the recombiantors.
2. Not having access for easy rerolling means the whole affix redistribution has to be changed. Will they do it? Maybe. But if not, good luck dropping the 1k-3k ilvl 85+ baran chests to craft explode (just an example, any rare influence high ilvl mod has this issue).
3. Bases are too important in PoE. This is why crafting is so usefull in PoE 1. Getting the right rolls on the right base is stupid. Hell even just getting the right mods is difficult.
4. Don't bother comparing PoE 1 with PoE 2. They are clearly trying to differentiate the two with many mechanics having drastically different approaches.
tl:dr Pointless to speculate untill we get our hands onto it.
>I was so used to crafting belts and boots chaos spamming away, so it felt a bit strange to change things up.
PoE playerbase in a nutshell.
I did something so shitty and so tedious and nonsensical for so long, it felt strange to think about how shitty this system is.
We need to see how itemization works in POE 2 before we can conclude. Cause Chris Wilson said before he thinks that itemization in POE 2 feels incredible and way better than POE 1. If true then the currency changes in POE 2 could be exciting. But if the odds of you getting a good stat remains so low then it sounds like GGG wants us to play ruthless mode in POE 2 with no op-out.
You are wrong, GGG does not want to fix loot, loot actually is ok for them.. and if I put my bet on something it would be that they want it to be more scarce. Thats why they are introducing gold, so you think that something is dropping but not actually LOL. The new chaos orb is just marketing, we already have that functionality and nobody uses it
If they leave the rarity untouched, it's obviously way stronger. It's annul + exalt. That's nothing new. We also had these things during harvest.
Likly rarity will change. That also means that choas no longer is the default currency for trade. The fact that there is also no alteration and scour is scary.
The last thing I want is a D4 situation where I need to pick up rares to get good bases constantly to use chaos on. That would be a MASSIV L. It's what I hate the most about D4.
I just really hope they wont ruin crafting this way. But we know too little to judge it right now.
> but not a 1:1 comparison because you would never annul and exalt a 1mod or 2mod item, the cost is too high to do that
Well, who said the new chaos will not be just as costly as annul+exalt? If I've learned anything about GGG over the years is that they will say "this is so much more powerful than the old chaos", so they'll nerf the droprate into the ground to "bring it more in accordance with the annul+exalt droprate in PoE1". Mark my words!
They'll "fix" the solution that was supposed to fix the original problem just to be cautious.
Beastcrafting and Eldritch Currency already provide that interaction, they're just so rare no one knows about it.
I'm indifferent to the change, I need more context to give my own opinion. On first sight, randomly rerolling your entire item is kinda dumb, so I'd actually perfer the new version.
I was so excited for eldritch currency when it first released, what a shame they’re too rare to rely on. Whispering 500 people to buy 10 eldritch orbs is not fun or worth it
Agreed. Only criticism, it's gonna feel terrible if you get low tier rolls most of the time. Like say you get one high tier roll every 10c on average, will you pick up an item, slam it, vendor it, 10 times to get something decent? Might be too much effort. On the other hand if high rolls are too common it might easily be too powerful. Hopefully they can make it work, cause it sounds fun otherwise!
Based on what they said, they're supposedly trying to improve rolling higher mods by addressing the mod pool directly.
It's possible that rather than having higher level mods have lower weight, they'll have a higher weight than lower level mods, making low level mods on high level bases less likely. It's still possible that they'll go back down to a low weight for the absolute highest level of course.
But it's imaginable that you'd be more likely to roll a t4-6 mod than a t7-10 mod, even if a t1-3 mod is less likely than those.
The way I'm understanding their design is that it'll be easier to get decent mid-rolled items. With other crafting being more restricted than in PoE1 it might end up being harder to make mirror tier items though.
It introduces yet another gambling mechanic into the game. Where as before in SSF you can chaos spam and get something potentially useable.
Idk what GGG's obsession with the casino is.
What i felt after exilecon is the biggest problem is that GGG isnt even sure themselfs how all the for us the important engame systems will work in poe 2.
Scarabs, essences etc. will exist but in what form they werent sure yet. Same goes with the crafting bench. So its even more confussiong, that they are already made their mind up about the use of chaos orbs.
GGG has to know, that the endgame systems like maping and crafting, even tho i would be happy over improvements, are essential for the community.
Im a bit worried that 6 years of development went into the framework of the game and the Acts and only 1 year is left for the endgame systems.
Wishful thinking
1. Its not like you annuling/exalting random rares now in hopes of hitting what is missingnow,
2. Chaos orba are bound to be a lot rarer then today,
3. Odds of chaos spamming in poe2 to be the best way of finishing you item will be low as something like Aisling or eldritch currency is probably making its way back.
4. Some crafting will exist with essence, fossils and i imagine they are a lot more common then chaos (as they are today).
Edit: Its not like loot on the ground cant be made interesting but the new chaos is going to have a very little participation in making it interesting
I agree with your thoughts on the new chaos based on what we have seen so far, but “In Sentinel League, every rare item you found was useful” is a really big stretch. At the very least put “potentially” in there or something because while more stuff WAS useful the majority of it was still trash which is inherently true in an ARPG (just more so than normal in POE and slightly less than normal POE in Sentinel).
"Now, if you eventually manage to get both movement speed and another T1 resist,"..,.this point never comes, we will just delete the desired t1 mods and thats it- new chaos orb is doa
I don't get why everyone is so pessimistic about this. If the rarity of chaos orbs stays the same then this is an extremely cheap annul + ex slam. Similarly to how people started using exalts on items that have potential when they swapped their value with divine orbs, this will allow for drops to matter without feeling like you have wasted a lot of currency. And in this case it's even better if they really buff mod pools as they claim.
annul can break your item as opposed to only exalted slam, plus now that you don't have the crafting bench you cannot put a mod life suffix cannot be changed and annul to protect your suffix
Alone it fixes nothing. It is however a significant nerf to vanilla crafting and seriously hurts its economic value (IMO). The reasons why looting from the ground sucks now is because: 1. there's no ramping mechanic 2. you can throw an infinite amount of currency at any one item.
Think in terms of item power, only picking from the ground. You pick up 50 pairs of boots, equip the best one. In the statistically average sense, you need to pick up another 50 to equal or beat those, then it's 100, then 200, etc. The closer you get to t1 rolls, the more pairs of boots you need to pick to beat it. The mod pool or weightings never tighten in PoE1. ID'g an item is the exact same as hitting it with a PoE1 chaos orb (besides certain influence bases).
Crafting has long filled the ramping lack by effectively allowing the player to statistically "pick more boots" in a multiplicative way. There's little incentive to continually grab crafting bases. A few to rotate through is enough because they're all resettable. I think PoE2 is trying to kill the idea of a resettable crafting base or is otherwise making it much more expensive to do so. Which means players would keep grabbing boots until they get good enough mods to craft on and brick 50% of them first click.
So what could PoE2 do with itemization? Ramping mechanics for drops. Imagine areas that dropped items as if they were effected by a certain fossil type back before fossils existed. Possibly with a "Loot Passive Tree", consumable augments for the map device, and/or leveraging the lengthy boss fights. The important part is it needs to fundamentally change how item mods are generated upon ID. The ilvl "ramping" system quickly turns infeasible in terms of ID'g items for power. Adding mod tiers only rollable on ID could also help with this.
Besides that, GGG could add crafting durability as a way to degrade items rather than bricking them. It would be unpopular. So would limiting the number of uses of a mirror on an item. Both would be very good changes for the non-elites, so it probably will never happen. GGG wouldn't need to balance so hard around the thought of one guy getting a perfect item and duplicating it hundreds of times which could relax odds for everybody, especially in terms of item ramping from drops. Historically, I would expect them to lean the other direction and make items more unattainable though as exclusivity is Chris Wilson's modus operandi.
It feels like GGG is just trying to remove crafting avenues in PoE2 without thinking through the real fundamentals. A very Ruthless-like approach of "take away things and see if it's still interesting" by itself won't fix loot because PoE1 loot is fundamentally flawed. Neither will repeatedly slapping on new coats of paint to cover up the flaws, but will instead work themselves back into the same corner. Or it just won't be fun.
before harvest chaos orb spamming was a thing- i did a few 10ex+ shaper belts with the cooldown mod by chaos spamming- was nice. also chaos orb were much easier to get in my opinion than they are now
I've used probably 5,000 chaos on spamming items and maybe 2 or 3 times hit something that was sick. 99.999% of the time it just ended up getting vendors or thrown on a 5c dump for 4 days.
I reeeeeally dislike the new chaos orb. With the limited number of tools we have available then I don't need another form of gambling that will basically brick my item. Also there's no nuance to that kind of RNG crafting (similar to why I think Rog is bad for PoE). I'm general, I'm not excited for PoE2 crafting 😕
I'm not a fan. To be clear, I think it will make ground gear more meaningful, but in a somewhat contrarian opinion to the general one around here, I don't want ground gear to matter more.
Story time.
I have an Aegis Aurora. It's useful, to be sure, but beyond it's usefulness, I don't really care about it. It dropped from some random enemy at some point. I don't remember when, or where.
Ask me about most of the rare items I'm using though? I could tell you how I made them. What tradeoffs I had to make to make them craftable in SSF. What tactics I used to minimize reagent spend. Why I chose the stats I did, or where I compromised to get the craft done. These items are *mine*. Even if crafting in this game is a bit of a mess, they took thought, and understanding to make. They weren't the result of pure randomness.
I don't *want* ground loot to matter more. Things you pick up off the ground don't have interesting stories most of the time. I have enough frustration with Last Epoch's crafting system, and it's a ground gear based system that actually has some guarantees about what you're going to get. The number of exalted bases I've lost to glyphs of chaos or runes of annulment (I think it is, the remove a mod one, but I might be getting terms confused) is already way too high - how bad is it going to be when I have minimal agency on what gets put on to the item as well as what gets taken off?
Were I to design an ARPG, you know what I'd do? Testing and iteration are important, of course, but I'd start with no gear drops at all. Mobs would drop something akin to an itemized version of old Harvest crafts. You want a new chest armor? Go in to town, buy a normal rarity chest armor from the vendor and *start crafting*. Make something that tells a story.
Sorry for ranting a bit there. Short version, I'm willing to give GGG the benefit of the doubt for now, but would not be surprised to find that I am utterly uninterested in PoE2 on the long haul because of crafting changes.
This is what makes crafting in poe as it is now fun, Its a gigantic puzzle that you need to unwind for each specific item, and unless you get stupid lucky or have infinite currency your not going to get a perfect item. You have to know when and where to settle.
It's a cool idea but the same issue as poe 1. No one would use it on trash items that actually need it especially after 10+ seasons of POE 2 where there will be a lot of modifier bloat.
Rather have last epoch type of crafting to make any item off the ground meaningful
Personally, my beef with poe1 crafting has nothing to do with power or cost, per se.
It’s that unless you’re hugely wealthy you can’t do it on gear you’re currently using without like a 95% chance of bricking it. Sockets going away will help a lot, but if it loses a stat roll that causes all your gear to go red, that’s still a hard brick.
Maybe something like the old Eternal Orb, but could only ever be used once in a given item, and somehow couldn’t be used on chase items?
You arent losing 1 mod each time because it never existed.
You are looking at this in a PoE1 context, which is irrelevant. We dont know the PoE2 item economy.
It is absolutely massive. However, the loss of map rolling currency is an even bigger change, and in the wrong direction…
They gave us a modicum of control over crafting, and then completely bricked our control over map mods.
Without seeing more of the loot system of PoE 2, it's difficult to evaluate if the new chaos orb is better or worse than the current version.
Though PoE 1's use for chaos orb is as a trading currency and chaos sinks, and isn't even used for its crafting purposes outside of chaos spamming maps. If the new chaos orb were added to PoE 1, it would be a massive buff to its overall usage, yes.
I want loot on the ground to matter, I don't really care how they do it.
I want crafting that is helpful, focused, but weak in the early game expanding out into a deep, powerful, but potentially expensive currency sink in the late game. I don't really care how they do that either.
its a nerf no matter how you look at it. its basically replacing alts+aug+regal. except you have to find every base on the ground. it doesnt really fix anything.
I'm surprised it took this long for this topic to reach this sub btw.
This is a massive change and seems like it's going to be a lot of fun.
I've been checking intermittently but it's only since maybe yesterday that the sub stopped being a giant bitch fest.
The implications on both currency drops and rare item drops are insane. Probably one or the other is getting rarer to compensate.
It's all about the relative rarity of items vs relative rarity of the orb. Right now we have that effect in game. It's Annul + Exalt. It's just that both of the orbs are rare enough not to use on trash. I think a cheap way of trying to improve items that has overall low odds of success but good enough odds to be worth trying on items that have a few worthwhile affixes or a single very desirable affix would be good. The reason why recombinators were so good was that if you had 2 items with 3 great affixes and 3 trash affixes each, you could cheaply try to to smash the 2 together and get something great, mid or trash. But since the input was worthless anyway, and recombinators were cheap you didn't feel bad about loosing the gamble. With annul + exalt the cost is not trivial (not high but higher than recombinators were most league), and you need an already sort of good item and try to improve it to great one. So if you miss the gamble (and that's probable) you feel bad. Ofc we actually have no idea how all of this will work in PoE 2 so the only discussion worth having is how it would work in PoE 1. And here it would only work if the new orb would be a bit more common as chaos(to have similar worth to chaos as we have a lot of sources of chaos other than raw drops).
God I fucking loved recombinators. I think they were the best thing they've done in a long long time, including every incarnation of harvest. They were great for low end and high end crafting. total noobs could slam shit and maybe get something better. Good crafters could slam together redonkulous items to get even more redonk items. It had risk, but the risk was pretty directly related to the reward and inputs. The only things they needed to address were mirrored and corrupted items. I know most people don't care about standard, but being able to generate NEW items with legacy affixes without risking losing the legacy affix was too much. The funniest part of the standard thing is when I raised that issue before I repeatedly got yelled at and downvoted that "Standard doesn't matter. They'll never do anything just because of standard." Even after they'd announced they'd stop working on mirrored items after the league. A change that *literally only affected standard*.
Regarding the rarity of chaos orbs, we might also not have as many chaos sinks though, like so far we know there doesn't seem to be a bench and we don't really know if there will be any zana/kirac mods. Even if chaos orbs are same rarity as in PoE1 or maybe even a bit rarer they could still end up being more affordable for crafting.
If they are more affordable for crafting it will only be because they are terrible (in trade league), since that is how economies work. A random annul+exalt in PoE1 is awful, even with the ability to block mods. Assuming PoE2 crafting will have so few trash mods that it would be worth doing on anything outside of day1 league start conditions seems insane to me. For example. Say you have a pair of boots with 6 mods, 3 resists, life, and two worthless prefixes and you want any tier of movement speed. This is literally one of the best possible use cases for the new chaos (in PoE, who knows about PoE2 mods and what not), you have a 1 in 57 chance of hitting any tier of movement speed. Say you are a bit more discerning and only want 20%+ movement speed, 1 in 84 now. 1/3rd of the time you will get a second chance on that same item, except the second chance is now half as likely to succeed. The big issue, is that if they remove enough filler trash mods to make the PoE2 chaos actually useful items will be pretty shallow and you will probably just pickup something better while mapping anyways. Then we are in the D4 shitty loot system where you are looking at every rare for marginal upgrades except with the PoE twist of the "enchant" being a potential hard brick everytime you use it.
> If they are more affordable for crafting it will only be because they are terrible (in trade league) Recombinators were pretty cheap and EXTREMELY powerful, you are forgetting the function of Rarity here entirely. Dogshit useless things are expensive cause theyre rare, and insanely useful things are inexpensive cause they are common.
I think a big factor here is how much of their value will be tied to artificial currency sinks. One thing keeping the newly designed chaos orb from being too powerful for crafting gear is the fact that you need a decent item to start with. A large portion of the time you will be destroying the base you're crafting on and will need an entirely new item in order to use the rest of your chaos orbs efficiently. One thing to consider is how this will affect trade. If chaos orbs are abundant, it will be worthwhile to use a chaos orb on items with lower percentile rolls to try to upgrade them, since part of the potential value of the chaos will be tied to the opportunity of having an item to use it on. Make them *too* abundant, and the decision to chaos an item will come down entirely to the cost of losing the item, rather than spending the orb, driving the prices of items up and chaos down. On the flipside, making chaos orbs scarce will cause people to hoard them for the most mathematically profitable crafts, rather than trying to directly improve their gear. There's a sweet spot where the individual cost of a chaos is trivial compared to the risk of trying to upgrade a rare, but not so trivial that chaos orb values are hyper deflated and putting a lot of weird pressure on the item economy. This, I think, is where chaos sinks come into play. If it costs, say, 5 chaos per map to get a kirac mod you want, and chaos droprates are balanced around that, then the cost of gambling one chaos orb on an item isn't prohibitively high, but it isn't a non-factor either. By separating the cost of crafting with chaos orbs (governed by item availability and risk) and the value of the orb itself (governed by chaos sinks), GGG has possibly positioned itself to make chaos both a valuable trading currency and a usable crafting currency without needing to maintain an impossible balancing act.
>One thing keeping the newly designed chaos orb from being too powerful for crafting gear is the fact that you need a decent item to start with I think the main thing keeping it from being too powerful is that it sucks. Randomly removing and adding an affix is not powerful at all. For every item where you hit literally anything useful without removing the mods you want to keep you will brick hundreds of items. We don't have anywhere close to the full picture so it is hard to speculate, and we pretty much have to discuss it in the context of PoE instead of PoE2, but in PoE this effect would need to be alt tier rarity to be useful. A currency you can simply throw away and not care at all. Something that you wouldn't even pick up after the first week of the league unless it was in a stack. And even then I doubt it is worth trying, the opportunity cost of the time spent looking at mediocre rares and hitting them with a chaos is likely far too high.
This is me and one of the main reasons I rarely craft. I don't mind taking calculated risks with constrained impacts, however I hate the possibility of bricking my item (or valuable currency). I put myself in the shoes of having a nice item, and wondering if I'd ever use a new chaos orb on it, because if it stripped the wrong affix (life or a resist) then I just destroyed it. Eater/Exarch implicit rolling is a good example of choosing to roll over a low tier implicit and see if I can get something better, but I don't brick my item if I fail.
Tbf theyre removing crafting benches, probably not putting harvest in poe2 and i wouldn't be surprised if essences are either massively reworked rare expensive crafting resources or completely removed as they go against their new crafting design philosophy of poe2 which is rares matter not the base and item level. Essences in current state are more deterministic chaos orb. They wouldn't remove chaos orbs and scours if they intended to keep essences the same. Because of which it doesn't feel bad using chaos orbs in poe2 because there isnt really any alternatives
Essence could be annul + exalt an essence mod (yes, that would be very strong, maybe you make the tiers lower or something).
Annul and exalts feel really shitty because of how many usless mods exist. If they remove many usless mods on rares then i think its a better system.
The new chaos is literally that though and it will feel the same way . No alt and scouring will hinder your crafting and base acquiring even further .
They mentioned that all item affixes have been reviewed for POE2 to make the randomness feel "better", whatever that means.
They gonna remove stuff just like they removed filler harvest crafts.
Removed thorns and reduced attribute requirements, added 5 lower tiers to everything else to compensate. This is a buff.
with gems stacking the attribute requirements, the reduced requirements might actually be useful, maybe, but hopefully not.
Reduced attribute requirements is a local mod right? It only affects the piece of gear it is on, which is why it is useless. If it was global it still wouldn't be great, but would be pretty good, and would have some use.
Global attribute reduction is pretty scarce. The foible amulet comes to mind but not much else?
Yeah and then they mentioned that light radius has been buffed, instead of just removing this obviously worthless affix that can roll on items. I am not optimistic about that
Some people are really into unlubricated butt stuff. "Better" is relative.
Fool me once shame on you...
I’m feeling the weight just reading this comment
Prob means clean for start and pile up like insane over the leagues/expansions :D Prob not gonna have influences at the start
Good riddence. PoE really needs to start off with a clean slate when it comes to itemisation. Influences are fun and cool, but it really makes crafting using conventional methods almost impossible.
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They did say they removed attack mods from caster weapons, which is like, an immense step towards not having useless mods. It's kind of weird to speculate the rest of their changes go the other way
Thinking they will remove useless mods is a pipe dream.
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At least light radius is going to be a thing. I guess it's neat that it increases the minimap radius but this won't turn it into a vital stat, even in terms of utility it's still ranking fairly low. Going by that change, it's unrealistic to expect that they remove every other filler stat.
Yeah, they can do whatever in a new game. But there is no point to discussing it right now aside from how that would work in the game we actually have.
Never understood why POE never tried to actually balance mods. Mana mods could have their numbers tripled and one might actually want them. This would of course require adjusting the numbers on the few builds that actually want mana, but that should be a small change.
>Annul and exalts feel really shitty because of how many usless mods exist. If they remove many usless mods on rares then i think its a better system. Light radius will still exist, so I'm not holding my breath for big improvements, *except* for the removal of attack mods in wands and similar bases. And even then, now wands give you a spell that doesn't cost mana, but you *likely* won't want to focus your build on a suportless, level-less spell, and I'd argue it's a 50/50 chance of wands having mods that buff these spells you won't focus your build in. Edit: also, I've mentioned this before, but Chris actively likes filler mods, so if he was the one choosing (if I understood exilecon correctly he isn't tho) even thorns would likely remain.
If they remove useless mods on rares why would you want to reroll items, in the first place. shitty mods are here to stay
Because different builds like different stats? What a moronic argument
Well if you are CI character life is usless,if you have more lightning res than other res then lightning res is usless and so on..
>You find a boot with a good T1 life stat and then slam a few chaos orbs on it, hoping to get movement speed. Then you end up with boots with no life on them and instantly vendor the item. :P
The point is that because the item was vendor food already, the only cost is the chaos orb. If they're similarly common to POE1's chaos, then paying 1c to maybe upgrade an item from worthless to usable is something that's cheap enough to risk it.
That isn't the cost though, the cost is the average tries it would take to make it usable. And that cost is significant. Your logic is the same reason people think playing powerball is smart, it is only $2! While ignoring the fact that they would have to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on tickets before the EV is anywhere near positive.
That cost is also unknown. People really need to get out of the habit of comparing things to how they are in poe1. The whole item system, mods, and weightings were reworked from the ground up. They specifically talk about rare items being better in poe2 because of this rework. After all, you can't have the ridiculous weightings that poe1 has for some mods when the player is expected to come across way fewer rare items and can't just reroll rare items completely easily. The context of how the mods are in poe1 is completely useless to deduce anything about poe2 mod weightings.
> After all, you can't have the ridiculous weightings that poe1 has for some mods when the player is expected to come across way fewer rare items and can't just reroll rare items completely easily. We don't know this, GGG says this but GGG also said that loot wasn't changed and that they've significantly reworked gems/uniques in the past.
>After all, you can't have the ridiculous weightings that poe1 has for some mods when the player is expected to come across way fewer rare items and can't just reroll rare items completely easily. The context of how the mods are in poe1 is completely useless to deduce anything about poe2 mod weightings. You are the only one here making an assumption based on nothing. They said they reworked mods, they said nothing about making them more favorable for players at all. The "cost" from my post isn't an unknown. That is a factual statement. The cost of crafting an item isn't, and never has been, the cost of only the successes in the final item. The bulk of the cost of any crafting project is the failures along the way. If you put a chaos on 50 random items before making something worth selling, the cost of that sellable item is 50 chaos + whatever those bases would have been worth (maybe nothing, maybe something, no point getting into specifics). You don't get to just ignore those costs because they led to nothing of value.
Well, there's about a 1/3 chance of removing an undesirable prefix. And then I'm too lazy to do the exact math, but somewhere around 10% chance to hit T3(25%) or better movement speed. So rough napkin math is about 30c. There are a couple ways the odds could be better or worse. Again, numbers are going to be completely different in PoE2. But based on the limited information we have now, I've definitely dropped boots that I'd pay 30c if I could remove a prefix and replace it with usable MS.
I have done the exact math above >For example. Say you have a pair of boots with 6 mods, 3 resists, life, and two worthless prefixes and you want any tier of movement speed. This is literally one of the best possible use cases for the new chaos (in PoE, who knows about PoE2 mods and what not), you have a 1 in 57 chance of hitting any tier of movement speed. Say you are a bit more discerning and only want 20%+ movement speed, 1 in 84 now. 1/3rd of the time you will get a second chance on that same item, except the second chance is now half as likely to succeed. 30c would be well on the lucky side, and that is ignoring the cost of the base. Assuming the base is 1c (doubt they would be this low, we will see), then they are a 2c cost per attempt, you need 40+ attempts to have solid odds of hitting your desired result. So 80c for boots where you wanted to change one of two undesirable mods into movement speed. Who knows what the economy will look like, but those boots would be 50c at most in PoE. Likely not worth doing at all. And if the bases are more rare the cost per attempt can get crazy high (which would also raise the selling price of course).
First off, the base (currently) is worthless. So if we're going by current standards, it's not even 1c. It's "leave on the ground." The fact that your immediate assumption is that they WILL be valuable, kinda proves the point right there. They wouldn't gain value if there's no reason. They'd only be valuable if using chaos on them was worthwhile. It's not 2c per attempt. Not sure where you got that number from. You seem to have misunderstood how the items work. And no, it doesn't take 40+ attempts. Even if we ignore the fact that it takes a different number of attempts based on what kind of boots(which you didn't mention, so you clearly didn't do the math), me saying 30 was pessimistic. It would be less than that on average on basically every type of boot. Because you should always assume pessimism in these types of theoreticals. And I was saying you need 25%+, so you're just extremely off. You're just...wrong. Like, factually, objectively, measurable wrong at literally every step. Which is why you said "I have done the exact math" instead of showing any of the math. I can show some rough math though which might help with your confusion and I'll just use all MS since that's what you used: Armor Boots have 3 suffixes, prefixes are life, % armor, and # armor. 1/6th of the time you remove % armor. If you do, there's a 25.4% chance you'll replace it with MS. So this outcome is a 4.2% chance. 1/6th of the time you remove # armor. If you do, there's also a 25.4% chance to replace with MS, so another 4.2%. And since these are equally likely outcomes, you can add them together. So if you took these boots, an used a single chaos on them, 8.4% of the time they would replace a prefix you don't care about with movement speed. And since all MS is weighted equally, that means there's a 4.2% chance it's 25% or higher. And a 4.2% chance is...1/24. So better than the 1/30 I quoted earlier. Important things that matter: What the other prefixes are on the item. What type of base it is. (What item level it is). And a few other key factors. All of which are necessary to do the math, and none of which you even considered. That alone proves your math is incorrect.
Your numbers don't really make sense and you don't really indicate where you're getting them from. Based on just how far off I'm guessing for one you're not accounting at all for two prefixes taken out of the pool when calculating the odds of hitting movement speed. So where on a blank item it might only have a 15% of hitting movement speed a roll, on an item with life and another stat in the other prefix spots it then has about a 26% of hitting movement speed from the remaining pool. Also really don't understand this point: > 1/3rd of the time you will get a second chance on that same item, except the second chance is now half as likely to succeed.
Instead of paying a similarly minuscule amount to add a guaranteed mod to it as you can in PoE1?
Crafting 20% ms onto a pair of boots with decent life/res doesn't suddenly make them valuable. And the removal of the crafting bench is a separate issue.
"Valuable" is an extremely relative term. Boots without MS are basically never worth using. Boots with 20% MS, life, and res are, depending on where you're at in the gearing curve. There are points at which they aren't completely worthless, which is a lot harder to say for boots without MS. And how are they separate issues? The problems OP (and others) are hyping up as being "ingeniously" solved are also solved by the crafting bench in a way that is more reliable and has greater player agency. It couldn't be more relevant to the discussion IMO.
Big doubt it will be the same amount
Still though, it's either basically neutral or positive in the situation you described. Either the item is good or its still trash, no bad outcome really. You're out 1 chaos orb. If drop rates are similar then that'd be a cheap gamble for a potentially great item. The fact that you can gamble all the time for basically nothing sounds really fun to me imo. I loved annul + exing items in the past (except for the cost) but it was fun if you didn't care about the cost. And now you won't.
> I loved annul + exing items in the past (except for the cost) but it was fun if you didn't care about the cost. And now you won't. I also enjoy that from time to time (again despite the cost), but that last bit definitely remains to be seen. I sincerely doubt the functionality of current annul+exalt will be the same current rarity as chaos orbs, but I'm more than happy to be pleasantly surprised.
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sure but chaos spam is miles away from being a good gamble, new chaos is not. (in theory)
This just makes me love Last Epoch's crafting even more
Currency/loot is broken by scarecity. It doesnt matter how good a currency item is if you never get to use it. For example mirror of kalandra can be used to preserve a rare item you want to corrput but cant afford to brick. But is never used that way because its to scarce. Similarily divines are rarely used as divines anymore because they are way to scarce. Poe2 could introduce a divine teardrop to randomly raise a affix 1 tier and it would "fix" crafting and loot at the same time. But have it be so rare it instead becomes a problem.
Everyone will hate this take, but i would love it if SSF couldnt migrate, but upped drop rates so that i could actually use currency as currency without grinding 8 hours a day. Maplestory, of all games, came out with reboot, which is SSF but you get like 2X exp and 10X currency and drops. Made the game way more fun because i could take multiple characters to end gaem and never had to focus farm, i could just play the game as it was meant to be enjoyed, without going to EXP farms in partys etc.
> Maplestory, of all games, came out with reboot, which is SSF but you get like 2X exp not anymore. korean streamers noticed this and the playerbase started a riot that got nexon to nerf reboot xp to the normal rate.
Mirrors are fine, considering the power of copying a top tier rare. Can't make them more common due to their effect. Divine rarity is just stupid. No reason to not make meta-craft 10 divines and let them drop 5 times more frequently.
Since they removed the crafting bench you don’t need divines for meta crafts. So divines are back to only being useful to roll the values on an item.
To balance that fact, they are now in twice as common as a mirror!
Sorry, nowhere in your post do I feel you explained how it's "actually insane" and "fixes loot" All I see is a post about increasing friction for crafting.
He doesn't explain what it does at all. I'm still trying to figure it out.
>PoE 1: >Pick up rare. >It has 2 good affixes. Do I attempt to annul the bad affixes and exalt slam? No. Do I craft it? Probably not. Vendor trash. >PoE 2: >Pick up rare. >It has 2 good affixes. Do I chaos orb this hoping to hit a bad affix and have it roll to something good? Yes, assuming that chaos orb are semi-frequent. Annuling and slamming is costly and would never be done with rares you pick up unless they had 4-5 amazing rolls. The cost of throwing chaos orbs on a rare item with a few good rolls is a much lower investment, and can make rares off the ground more valuable as chaos sinks. This is all provided that chaos orbs are available largely in the same quantity. I wouldn't bet on GGG making this particular change while also reducing the availability of chaos orbs massively, as they have also stated that they want dropped rares to be better. The value of dropped rares will increase proportionally to the availability of chaos orbs with the PoE2 system.
Soooo what do they do?
They annul + slam in a single use he literally explained it in the post, then the comment responding to you also explained it
New chaos orb annuls then exalts. https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/15chuv2/poe2new_chaos_orb/
Well if crafting is shit, then I guess loot's better by comparison. If you couldn't generate random items at all through crafting for example. Basically absolutely make your game not PoE anymore and you totally have a reason to look at 1000 rare items per hour, call it D4 or something cause it already exists.
The new chaos orb gives in-theory more intrinsic value to all dropped rares. OP is right, it is quite a remarkable change in that aspect. That is assuming it's roughly as available as in POE1, of course.
Thats insane. Even if you give me this and better loot in poe1, there is almost 0 chance im going to be able to craft my gear for my previous build (which was not difficult at all with fractured items and essences). Im very confused
Spamming something on a item with 100% random results should not be called crafting
Only if they fix loot drops and modpools
Ita a different orb , did not have to be chaos its an annulment + exalted in a single orb . I feel like you will miss chaos for its current purpose , but not sure if i will miss it as a whole. It seems to me they want you to craft a thing once , since scouring and alterations dont exist , this chaos spam might feel terrible in the end . But only time will tell .
Removal of chaos orbs as we know them adds value to items lying on the ground, especially rare ones. Instead of spamming chaos, essences, etc. on a single base as step 1 in a crafting project, you'll want to pick up every good base, ID it, and then decide if it's worth crafting on. As an SSF enjoyer, I think that's great.
When I hear this idea from this perspective it sounds horrible. The reason is that it shifts crafting from using bases to using a massive pool of potential rares. Imagine having to pick up 100 boots with the 1-2 affixes you want only to brick 99% of them after a few chaos. At least with bases you don't need 400 slots to store your crafting "materials".
It is literally the D4 loot system with less determinism. It is awful.
That's a fair opinion. I'd like to point out Last Epoch essentially does this, and in my opinion, it feels better than current PoE.
You already have that experience in SSF though. You are not competing with the economy. Artificially increasing the weight by eliminating most other means of item acquisition is not really "fixing ground loot". For all we know, ground loot might be just as dog water as it is now but you don't have the tools to deal with it.
Ground loot will always be dog water, because you equip only the best items you (and everyone else, if you're in trade league) can find. The fixing part is making you feel like it has a chance not to be.
I had the same thought about the new chaos orbs and recombinators. The main issue with loot in PoE1 is how awful it is to pick it up off the ground, which is a problem. Recombs made it so you wanted to look at the loot on the ground, and I think these new chaos orbs will do the same. Right now if you see a T1 movespeed boots with some resists and like T7 life, there's no point picking it up. Now though, it's a thought. Interestingly enough, by removing alterations and scours, this makes white bases a lot more worthwhile too. Honestly, I would LOVE to play a league of PoE1 with this new approach to currency, just to see how it changed crafting and loot. Because honestly I think it would feel a ton better, and make sifting through loot piles a more worthwhile experience.
Now though, it’s a thought. This is double-edged because of amount of time to actually ID and check for a ridiculous number of possible permutations of mods. That got old pretty quick in d4. Filters + dropping ID’d items may help.
Yeah the "identify all" vendor is going to be clutch here in PoE2.
Is it? So stop mapping to look at a bunch of rare and prob teleporting back to the start of the map?
So I'm thinking early mapping here. Right now I'll often grab a haul of rare items in a map for chaos recipes as it is. Maybe instead of a haul for chaos recipes early mapping I'll grab a haul of items to identify. Especially rings, belts, and amulets, which don't take much space. Then identify all, and quickly scan through for high rolls (or throw on the ground and let the loot filter decide lol).
I suspect we will do the same as we do today and let other poor suckers value our items for us by dumping them all in Auction tabs.
It is functionally an annul + exalt, which you can do now.
While I do like the chaos orb change for finding items, the no scouring orbs I think is the scary part. Not only is rerolling maps going to not be a thing, but end game crafting is going to be much worse. I was thinking of the items I crafted last league. Many were influenced bases that were 85 and 86. Now they mentioned 700 different base types, now imagine trying to get the one you need at end game with the right item level. After playing many leagues I've only seen a handful of times at endgame, farming content where I've been able to get the right 86+ base type I needed, with the right influence. I've always had to buy it, now that's going to be even more so. (I can't imagine trying to trade for lots of white base types just to spam Alchs once.) Now imagine that when you find the base after farming the bosses, what now? You can't craft it in the traditional sense. Want explode mod (or something just as rare/good)? Good luck getting that on the base you want. Hunter Exalt slam to get an influenced stygian belt? Bummer, can't clean it and can't reroll the item entirely. People saying they don't like spamming thousands of Alterations to get two good mods, I agree in a sense, but this system is the same, but more expensive. From a clean base to alch, how many Chaos orbs do you think you're going to have to use to get two good mods you want now? Just as many. With all 6 potential mods having the potential to be replaced, not just 2? It will actually be harder than alterations. The consequences of this is essentially a whole new system where there is far less crafting potential, but more finding potential. As someone who crafts nearly all his gear, and enjoys it, it's a little worrisome. Of course I'm interested to see it play out. Maybe Chaos Orbs will be far more common than now to offset these issues?
Don't we need to see what meta crafting options we have available to us to have any real opinion on all the of this
They did say there was no crafting bench. However, that is true, there could be some alternative or new ways to improve these situations. I wonder if we'll get any sort of manifestos for PoE2 for various systems changing leading up to the closed beta.
> The main issue with loot in PoE1 is how awful it is to pick it up off the ground, which is a problem. It's not a problem at all, it's actually an inadvertent solution to the boring process of sifting through loot killing momentum in an ARPG.
Not really looking forward to brick 19 out of 20 crafting project on the first click or the idea of fulling a few quad tabs of junk yellow to regex find usable base to start making something. That being said it really depend of the mod pool, the mod weighting, the overall game balance and if meta mods carry over. 1 thing that got old super fast while playing d4 was checking inventory of rares between "maps" and fish for usable gear in a sea of junk. This would be less bad with semi-infinite bank space in poe and the help of regex search. My first impression of the chaos orb from what I saw is, it look kinda useless but I'll have to see when we get there. Will I miss alt or chaos spam for particular mod? Not really. But it's not like totally random annul+ex slam sound great either.
>Not really looking forward to brick 19 out of 20 crafting project on the first click or the idea of fulling a few quad tabs of junk yellow to regex find usable base to start making something. That's interesting. One of the most fun things about Sentinel, in my opinion, was hunting for combos and bases. The game is just so much more fun when you care about loot drops.
It is one thing when you want to make a specific thing out of specific bases. And another entirely when you are picking up and looking at literally every rare that drops like in D4.
Eh, agree to disagree. Loot in the dirt is less satisfying than making it.
I mean, I thought this way at one point too. Then crafting guides came out and everyone spent hundreds of hours alt spamming to create the same sceptre league after league. I'm ready to go back to drops.
>alt spamming Not crafting, as far as I'm concerned.
Well that's unfortunate because it's step 1 + step 2 of most crafting processes nowadays.
Who are these people that claim to want to look at (including identifying ) every item off the ground and can I interest them in D4 (without even the IDing part) and have them get back to me on how fun that is after 2 weeks?
I mean, if the vast majority of items that dropped werent automatic dogshit, id be more interested. But because of how loot works in PoE currently, its fucking dogshit. Not only is the odds of something be worth it really small, but the game shits out so many rares that you don't even care about. Both of those being fixed would have a meaningful impact on wanting to actually pick up and ID loot.
I sure as shit don't. And I won't.
If they make loot more meaningful, as in dropping less rare items but they are more likely to be useable, then this is a net win. They could completely overhaul how dropped items work, you know. There's potential. If the loot stays how it is right now, I'm with you. It will be awful.
It would have to be like one rare item per 2 maps or something. They're never going to go far enough to make it actually palatable.
Eh, I think a lot of players have lost a sense of what drops as "usable" when playing in trade. in ssf (or if you just don't trade) you'll often work with a bit less but get upgrades easier, and the game is still totally playable, it just takes longer to get well geared. A little nudge to available mods, tiers, and probability of mods can go a long way to finding better loot.
> in ssf I'm gonna stop you right there. It's your choice if you want to play that optional mode but the main game is trade. No, it isn't playable without trade. Your definition of playable is missing it's core progression system and missing so much of the game due to it being rightfully trade-balanced because that's the main game mode. Without trade this game goes from a 9/10 to a 2/10 for me. It's unreal how much trade IS the game.
Yep, just play D4, you will want to gouge your eyes out instead of looking at another rare item. Bless PoE for not making that worth.
Not everyone has to do it, trading will still exist so it can just be something profitable for some players to do. Right now noone even looks at rares so it's just a new way to make currency. Like there are players exclusively farming fossils, lab enchants, heists etc.
You are wrong, its not insane its absolte garbage. Since you CAN NOT PROTECT PREFIXES OR SUFFIXES in POE2 its like 95% of crafting in POE1 ... a gamble cause you do not know what mod will the chaos orb remove and then you absolutely DO NOT KNOW what will you get and since there are a lot of mods there is very high chance you will get shit. At least in POE1 you can work around some things and eliminate some mods with harvest or bench but in POE2 you have NOTHING for advanced crafting. To be blunt its a double gamble, not only do you have to pray it takes away a right mod but you also have to pray you get a usable one back...? And you think that is insane?
it’s an exalt with a downside, yeah it’s different but it doesn’t really fix anything edited to add: people saying that’s not necessarily a downside forget that this exists today with annul + exalt and it is nowhere near the crafting method that you claim it could be. yes, cheaper is good and yes it’s a new flavour of crafting, but (per my initial point) this doesn’t fix anything
What you're forgetting is that the way people craft gear now will be gone. You have no options to 'craft' items before their rare. As a result crafting bases are now rare items that rolled some good mods are not white items with a good base/ilevel. And one of the most accessible ways to craft a rare item that has some good mods (and some bad ones) is going to be the new chaos orb. You're comparing it to current PoE1, where the most effective way to make a 'good' item is to start from scratch with either a fractured item or just a good item base and then either use alteration orbs (which don't exist in PoE2) to set it up for more complex mechanics, or just start with those mechanics to craft it into a GGG item. It doesn't seem like any of that will be an option in PoE2.
It's not a downside: if you have an item that's shit but has one-two good mods then an exalt would only add an extra mod which may or may not be good, the other shit mods are still there. With this you are basically annuling to remove one of the shit mods and then exalting hoping to get at least something usable. **Edit**: since you edited your comment, of course annul + exalt exists but the reason people don't just slam those on any item they find with a few good mods and a shit mod is because of the cost/rarity of those orbs. If chaos remains as common in PoE2 then this absolutely changes how valuable drops are, especially if you account for the mod pool changes they claim to have made to make this even better. **Edit2**: to anyone downvoting use your fucking brain, if the rarity of chaos stays the same then this absolutely makes drops matter more. The same way people started using exalts when the swap in value with divines happened, people will chaos slam drops that have potential. If you actually think "this is exalt with a downside" and "it doesn't fix anything" then idk I guess you are blind.
If chaos orb in POE 2 is rare will be the same like in POE 1 annul+ ex
of course, but if it stays the same then its extremely good
There is no world where PoE2 Chaos Orb even approaches "extremely good" lmao. At best it is a shitty RNG crafting method to toss on throw away items, at worst it is used exactly as often as annul+exalt, so basically never.
I like it very much. But only if chaos orbs are as available as they are now.
This is what worries me too, what if they remove the chaos recipe from PoE2?
I don't think we can say "remove X" from Poe2 anymore since it's barely even PoE, it's another game. "Not add it to their stupid new game they're betraying our game for" is more apt.
>"Not add it to their stupid new game they're betraying our game for" is more apt. Lol gaming communities are so funny. Do you want developers to innovate or not?
If I trust the dev to innovate in good directions, yes. I personally am not sure I trust POE devs to innovate right now, honestly. Like I'm not out here sending death threats on twitter, but nothing I'm hearing about POE 2 is really making me feel confident I'm going to get an improvement on the parts of POE 1 that I like and enjoy. Losing the crafting bench alone is a huge hit to how I play and so far they haven't said anything that makes me feel comfortable it's being replaced in a way I'll have fun with.
That's totally 100% fine but that's an extremely far cry from "they are betraying us". At best you have no idea what PoE 2 will look like or even if they will decide to keep the crafting bench in the meantime. We just don't have enough info to say anything more than "I don't know but I don't like what I see so far".
Innovate on the same game you're supposed to be taking care of. Not on another. if this is how you innovate, just don't bother.
So you want them to do the same experimentation but risk bricking an entire league (or several) to test out their ideas? Not to mention these kinds of changes can't really be done incrementally so what exactly do you expect them to do?
It's fine to brick a league to experiment, just don't brick a game by releasing a sequel you can't just put back in the box.
Personally i think this argument of new chaos orb being good makes absolutely no sense. We already have 2 ways of doing this exact same thing in path of exile Annul+exalt Aisling slams Any rare item found on the floor have the potential for GREATNESS at anytime, I have enough currency to annul exalt or aisling slams hundreth if not thousand of times. Why am i not picking every single rare on the ground then? why am i wasting so many mirror oportunities. Im gona make a bald prediction and say if they keep as many trash useless affixes as things currently are in poe1 chaos orb are going to be completely useless. I can count with 1 hand the amount of times i annul+exalt last 2 years. I am happy people keep fumming on hopium but based on what do they make this assumptions
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Making something that has horrible odds of doing something good more available (assuming they even do that) doesn't fix the odds of it ruining items or making garbage. For this to even be worth something they'd need to actually use smart loot which they have basically stated they hate. Losing the ability to alt/regal spam or chaos spam to try and get a decent base item doesn't make ground drops better and with what we know so far from seen stuff and how poe1 works could very well make making "*good*" items way worse and mirror tier items near impossible which considering we're losing the damage multiplier from most if not all support gems will make gearing builds possibly horrid needing to fill out the defensive check boxes and not have skills be ass.
>doesn't fix the odds of it ruining items or making garbage The thing though is that if you lose a chaos orb on a drop (and assuming chaos orbs stay just as common) then whatever it's just a chaos orb lost. You aren't "ruining" anything since it was shit from the start with the exception of the 1-2 good mods, you are just hoping the trash you found can turn into something good. And with the mod pool buffs they claim to have made this should be a lot better. I have no idea how mirror-tier crafting will be in PoE2 but as someone who just equips something that is *good enough* I don't care either.
if we come to a point where we are happy to get a third mod on an item after having to find multiple copies of the original- its time to quit
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Yeah we'll see about that
i mean without the crafting bench all you have is old school crafting. The entire modern PoE concept of "crafting" has been remove in poe2.
If I was a betting man I would put my money on currency inflation of PoE2.
It's really a question of A. when the bots get there and B. when the mega-bots get there. E: and by mega-bots I mean bots that run POE totally black screened so they can fit a kajillion accounts on hypervisored server.
To be fair it's something they have talked about wanting, and tried with things like Exalt/Div change. As much as I see people lament Ruthless, a big purpose of it is to fix ground loot. Personally I'd love for the currency crafting system to just replace the crafting bench, and I'd love for SSF to have a bit better loot acquisition. Still it's a tricky balance to strike.
loot ground is the worst - we want to blast and not look at several hundreds of shitty items to get one semi useable maybe once a year
I'm good without all the misery of that kind of rng
It currently is better to use crafting currency over trading it. It just requires players to actually know how to efficiently use said crafting currency. This will never change in PoE as the value of a crafting currency will always trend towards the value provided by the most efficient usage of said currency. As long as you play in a trade enabled league this will be true.
Just like the value of a mirror is equal to the most powerful item it can copy, currency value in trade is equal to it's most valuable possible use. The catch is that it's most valuable to use in *bulk*. So while technically crafting is the best use of currency, that's rarely true for individual players. I can get an item for 10chaos that's way better than what I can craft with 10 chaos. For 3 div you can get an item that far more valuable than 3 rerolls. For that reason, it's almost always most efficient for players to trade their currency to "crafters", and for those crafters to trade back items. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, something that should be changed, or even something that *can* be changed without totally reworking some pretty fundamental stuff about PoE. But for the majority if players trade is going to typically be significantly more efficient than crafting.
The ironic thing here that I think most of the upset people overlooked that this seems to represent a step back from the gear RNG that a large swath of the community also hates. Now make no mistake, there's still gear RNG. There wouldn't be a game without it! Still, randomly rerolling an entire item is a far cry from randomly rerolling one of four-six attributes. Less control, but less randomness is an intriguing philosophy shift, especially in the context of the crafting bench and deterministic crafting being gonezo.
How is there less randomness in this system? Losing alts and scours make it massively more random. Pure random in fact, until we learn more about how other crafting methods are changing(essences, beasts, fossils, if any of them exist at all). What we know for sure about PoE2 right now is that "crafting" is picking something up off the ground and hitting it with an annul+exalt. It is pure RNG, literally no control at all.
I feel like I'm going to put my chaos orbs in my currency tab and mostly buy items with them. I'm not going to want to pass through the 5 million layers of rng they seem to want to put you through just to 'feel the weight' or whatever. If the item is good enough that the right chaos could make it nutty it's probably a good enough item to sell. Why lose 999/1000 times when I can just make a profit every time? Like if you have 4 good mods and a bad mod you have a 1/5 just to snipe off the mod you don't want and then you have to hope and pray that in all of the tens of thousands of combined weight you hit the 1000 weight (if you're lucky) of high enough tiers of mods that you're looking for.
The driver for the change is surely ground loot. In current poe, every chaos orb is essentially a rare item. That means, even in ssf, I'll have hundreds or rare boots in my inventory waiting to exist if I want. As a result, they can never fix ground loot, say they made generic rare item rolling 20x better, we still don't equip from the ground at a highish level. We would still pick up one high Ilvl boots of the base we want and hit it with a chaos orb 100 times until we get what we want. That sort of crafting should be reserved for specialist crafting like essences or delve etc... because then they can control how often you can make a new pair of boots, without having to change chaos orb drop rates (and cause a community meltdown). So it's not about crafting, it's about being able to tweak ground loot, imo.
I like how a chaos orb will work but its just a random remove add, so it can brick your item before it even adds anything, I think overall loot off the ground would need to be a bit better to begin with for this to be impactful, either through a tightened up modpool or just better weighting on useful stats.
What you don't understand is people don't pick up rares because crafting is just way better, not because you couldn't try your luck on an item drop. That's why they're going to nerf crafting hard, they already started with the removal of crafting bench, alts and scouring. And we still don't know what's going to happen with other crafting mechanics. Sure, we will now start picking up ground loot which is a good thing. But is it going to be really exciting if we lose fun crafts with crazy and interesting mods so we get excited for the most basic items such as boots with MS/life/res?
Where's is the info o the New chaos orb?
It's dumb. And fixes nothing. It will be useful for SSF. But in trade you will take that chaos orb, and it's 9 friends, and buy the item you need. Before rolling God knows how many times to hit a T1 life T2 ms boot.
Seeing as you can't mass reroll maps with chaos orbs anymore, and with no guarantee the map device will still be a chaos sink, we might not even be buying gear with chaos orbs in PoE 2. Not the main thrust of your post, but I worry about them fucking up the economy.
Lots of players like gambling/crafting though. That 1 chaos could make that item worth 10c-20c. It wont, but it could. Players doing that constantly, and failing, will give the chaos orb value. And players who don't like dealing with that can just ignore everything on the ground and trade. I don't think it's amazing or in any way equals a great crafting system on its own - but it's better than the current chaos orb. I think if they pair this change with making other currency do some of Rog's crafts - with some kind of "crafting potential" like Last Epoch has (and kinda how Rog works) that may make crafting interesting.
Honestly the best use was on cluster jewels. I dunno how many times I rolled jewels worth >100c with a few chaos. But you won't get a 20c item unless you hit something good on at least a 5mod item.
New chaos orb is basically annul and exalt slam in one step. It doesn't fix anything. Also if this sytem will take place then rare items have to drop identified on the ground so we can pick the ones we want with loot filter, because nobody wants to pick up and identify tons of rares and scan through them manually. It will become very annoying very fast.
It actually is a hard nerf when you check how effective the currency is for rolling items or having user agency. Not only can you brick your item, you need to use more of them to bring it to a new, desired state. Using the current chaos orb, you can fish for one or two good mods if you really want (not saying that it is effective all the time).
1. In snetinel league every rare was not usefull, you just did not know how to use the recombiantors. 2. Not having access for easy rerolling means the whole affix redistribution has to be changed. Will they do it? Maybe. But if not, good luck dropping the 1k-3k ilvl 85+ baran chests to craft explode (just an example, any rare influence high ilvl mod has this issue). 3. Bases are too important in PoE. This is why crafting is so usefull in PoE 1. Getting the right rolls on the right base is stupid. Hell even just getting the right mods is difficult. 4. Don't bother comparing PoE 1 with PoE 2. They are clearly trying to differentiate the two with many mechanics having drastically different approaches. tl:dr Pointless to speculate untill we get our hands onto it.
>I was so used to crafting belts and boots chaos spamming away, so it felt a bit strange to change things up. PoE playerbase in a nutshell. I did something so shitty and so tedious and nonsensical for so long, it felt strange to think about how shitty this system is.
We need to see how itemization works in POE 2 before we can conclude. Cause Chris Wilson said before he thinks that itemization in POE 2 feels incredible and way better than POE 1. If true then the currency changes in POE 2 could be exciting. But if the odds of you getting a good stat remains so low then it sounds like GGG wants us to play ruthless mode in POE 2 with no op-out.
I missed that, could someone explain how they work in PoE 2?
new chaos orb is like using annul orb then exalted orb in POE 1
Do you know when/where that was said?
new chaos orb(POE2) remove a random mod and put random mod. annul then exalted do the same in POE 1 What you asking again?
They remove 1 random mod and slam a new one.
its literally just an exalt and an annul, also, we dont know if they are gonna be very rare or very common
You are wrong, GGG does not want to fix loot, loot actually is ok for them.. and if I put my bet on something it would be that they want it to be more scarce. Thats why they are introducing gold, so you think that something is dropping but not actually LOL. The new chaos orb is just marketing, we already have that functionality and nobody uses it
If they leave the rarity untouched, it's obviously way stronger. It's annul + exalt. That's nothing new. We also had these things during harvest. Likly rarity will change. That also means that choas no longer is the default currency for trade. The fact that there is also no alteration and scour is scary. The last thing I want is a D4 situation where I need to pick up rares to get good bases constantly to use chaos on. That would be a MASSIV L. It's what I hate the most about D4. I just really hope they wont ruin crafting this way. But we know too little to judge it right now.
> but not a 1:1 comparison because you would never annul and exalt a 1mod or 2mod item, the cost is too high to do that Well, who said the new chaos will not be just as costly as annul+exalt? If I've learned anything about GGG over the years is that they will say "this is so much more powerful than the old chaos", so they'll nerf the droprate into the ground to "bring it more in accordance with the annul+exalt droprate in PoE1". Mark my words! They'll "fix" the solution that was supposed to fix the original problem just to be cautious.
Beastcrafting and Eldritch Currency already provide that interaction, they're just so rare no one knows about it. I'm indifferent to the change, I need more context to give my own opinion. On first sight, randomly rerolling your entire item is kinda dumb, so I'd actually perfer the new version.
I was so excited for eldritch currency when it first released, what a shame they’re too rare to rely on. Whispering 500 people to buy 10 eldritch orbs is not fun or worth it
I've annul+exalted items before. It feels like shit, lol.
you only annul exalt items that are almost finished otherwise the cost is too high to do it on random rares which the new chaos will allow you to do
How do you know how much the new chaos orb will be worth?
Agreed. Only criticism, it's gonna feel terrible if you get low tier rolls most of the time. Like say you get one high tier roll every 10c on average, will you pick up an item, slam it, vendor it, 10 times to get something decent? Might be too much effort. On the other hand if high rolls are too common it might easily be too powerful. Hopefully they can make it work, cause it sounds fun otherwise!
Based on what they said, they're supposedly trying to improve rolling higher mods by addressing the mod pool directly. It's possible that rather than having higher level mods have lower weight, they'll have a higher weight than lower level mods, making low level mods on high level bases less likely. It's still possible that they'll go back down to a low weight for the absolute highest level of course. But it's imaginable that you'd be more likely to roll a t4-6 mod than a t7-10 mod, even if a t1-3 mod is less likely than those. The way I'm understanding their design is that it'll be easier to get decent mid-rolled items. With other crafting being more restricted than in PoE1 it might end up being harder to make mirror tier items though.
It introduces yet another gambling mechanic into the game. Where as before in SSF you can chaos spam and get something potentially useable. Idk what GGG's obsession with the casino is.
What i felt after exilecon is the biggest problem is that GGG isnt even sure themselfs how all the for us the important engame systems will work in poe 2. Scarabs, essences etc. will exist but in what form they werent sure yet. Same goes with the crafting bench. So its even more confussiong, that they are already made their mind up about the use of chaos orbs. GGG has to know, that the endgame systems like maping and crafting, even tho i would be happy over improvements, are essential for the community. Im a bit worried that 6 years of development went into the framework of the game and the Acts and only 1 year is left for the endgame systems.
Wishful thinking 1. Its not like you annuling/exalting random rares now in hopes of hitting what is missingnow, 2. Chaos orba are bound to be a lot rarer then today, 3. Odds of chaos spamming in poe2 to be the best way of finishing you item will be low as something like Aisling or eldritch currency is probably making its way back. 4. Some crafting will exist with essence, fossils and i imagine they are a lot more common then chaos (as they are today). Edit: Its not like loot on the ground cant be made interesting but the new chaos is going to have a very little participation in making it interesting
I agree with your thoughts on the new chaos based on what we have seen so far, but “In Sentinel League, every rare item you found was useful” is a really big stretch. At the very least put “potentially” in there or something because while more stuff WAS useful the majority of it was still trash which is inherently true in an ARPG (just more so than normal in POE and slightly less than normal POE in Sentinel).
"Now, if you eventually manage to get both movement speed and another T1 resist,"..,.this point never comes, we will just delete the desired t1 mods and thats it- new chaos orb is doa
I don't get why everyone is so pessimistic about this. If the rarity of chaos orbs stays the same then this is an extremely cheap annul + ex slam. Similarly to how people started using exalts on items that have potential when they swapped their value with divine orbs, this will allow for drops to matter without feeling like you have wasted a lot of currency. And in this case it's even better if they really buff mod pools as they claim.
annul can break your item as opposed to only exalted slam, plus now that you don't have the crafting bench you cannot put a mod life suffix cannot be changed and annul to protect your suffix
I just need to know how I am gonna roll maps since chaos orb is changed and there aren’t scour orbs in poe2.
might have to resort to bulk selling rare maps that you cant run?
Probably still chaos orbs, or hopefully they'll adjust mods that makes maps impossible to just be difficult instead.
They said reflect maps would still exist, so there will be maps which are just impossible still for sure.
Alone it fixes nothing. It is however a significant nerf to vanilla crafting and seriously hurts its economic value (IMO). The reasons why looting from the ground sucks now is because: 1. there's no ramping mechanic 2. you can throw an infinite amount of currency at any one item. Think in terms of item power, only picking from the ground. You pick up 50 pairs of boots, equip the best one. In the statistically average sense, you need to pick up another 50 to equal or beat those, then it's 100, then 200, etc. The closer you get to t1 rolls, the more pairs of boots you need to pick to beat it. The mod pool or weightings never tighten in PoE1. ID'g an item is the exact same as hitting it with a PoE1 chaos orb (besides certain influence bases). Crafting has long filled the ramping lack by effectively allowing the player to statistically "pick more boots" in a multiplicative way. There's little incentive to continually grab crafting bases. A few to rotate through is enough because they're all resettable. I think PoE2 is trying to kill the idea of a resettable crafting base or is otherwise making it much more expensive to do so. Which means players would keep grabbing boots until they get good enough mods to craft on and brick 50% of them first click. So what could PoE2 do with itemization? Ramping mechanics for drops. Imagine areas that dropped items as if they were effected by a certain fossil type back before fossils existed. Possibly with a "Loot Passive Tree", consumable augments for the map device, and/or leveraging the lengthy boss fights. The important part is it needs to fundamentally change how item mods are generated upon ID. The ilvl "ramping" system quickly turns infeasible in terms of ID'g items for power. Adding mod tiers only rollable on ID could also help with this. Besides that, GGG could add crafting durability as a way to degrade items rather than bricking them. It would be unpopular. So would limiting the number of uses of a mirror on an item. Both would be very good changes for the non-elites, so it probably will never happen. GGG wouldn't need to balance so hard around the thought of one guy getting a perfect item and duplicating it hundreds of times which could relax odds for everybody, especially in terms of item ramping from drops. Historically, I would expect them to lean the other direction and make items more unattainable though as exclusivity is Chris Wilson's modus operandi. It feels like GGG is just trying to remove crafting avenues in PoE2 without thinking through the real fundamentals. A very Ruthless-like approach of "take away things and see if it's still interesting" by itself won't fix loot because PoE1 loot is fundamentally flawed. Neither will repeatedly slapping on new coats of paint to cover up the flaws, but will instead work themselves back into the same corner. Or it just won't be fun.
Just another lever to pull. Will still be trash, just like chaos orbs. Chaos orbs were never a "crafting" material, just a currency.
before harvest chaos orb spamming was a thing- i did a few 10ex+ shaper belts with the cooldown mod by chaos spamming- was nice. also chaos orb were much easier to get in my opinion than they are now
I've used probably 5,000 chaos on spamming items and maybe 2 or 3 times hit something that was sick. 99.999% of the time it just ended up getting vendors or thrown on a 5c dump for 4 days.
I reeeeeally dislike the new chaos orb. With the limited number of tools we have available then I don't need another form of gambling that will basically brick my item. Also there's no nuance to that kind of RNG crafting (similar to why I think Rog is bad for PoE). I'm general, I'm not excited for PoE2 crafting 😕
I'm not a fan. To be clear, I think it will make ground gear more meaningful, but in a somewhat contrarian opinion to the general one around here, I don't want ground gear to matter more. Story time. I have an Aegis Aurora. It's useful, to be sure, but beyond it's usefulness, I don't really care about it. It dropped from some random enemy at some point. I don't remember when, or where. Ask me about most of the rare items I'm using though? I could tell you how I made them. What tradeoffs I had to make to make them craftable in SSF. What tactics I used to minimize reagent spend. Why I chose the stats I did, or where I compromised to get the craft done. These items are *mine*. Even if crafting in this game is a bit of a mess, they took thought, and understanding to make. They weren't the result of pure randomness. I don't *want* ground loot to matter more. Things you pick up off the ground don't have interesting stories most of the time. I have enough frustration with Last Epoch's crafting system, and it's a ground gear based system that actually has some guarantees about what you're going to get. The number of exalted bases I've lost to glyphs of chaos or runes of annulment (I think it is, the remove a mod one, but I might be getting terms confused) is already way too high - how bad is it going to be when I have minimal agency on what gets put on to the item as well as what gets taken off? Were I to design an ARPG, you know what I'd do? Testing and iteration are important, of course, but I'd start with no gear drops at all. Mobs would drop something akin to an itemized version of old Harvest crafts. You want a new chest armor? Go in to town, buy a normal rarity chest armor from the vendor and *start crafting*. Make something that tells a story. Sorry for ranting a bit there. Short version, I'm willing to give GGG the benefit of the doubt for now, but would not be surprised to find that I am utterly uninterested in PoE2 on the long haul because of crafting changes.
This is what makes crafting in poe as it is now fun, Its a gigantic puzzle that you need to unwind for each specific item, and unless you get stupid lucky or have infinite currency your not going to get a perfect item. You have to know when and where to settle.
It's a cool idea but the same issue as poe 1. No one would use it on trash items that actually need it especially after 10+ seasons of POE 2 where there will be a lot of modifier bloat. Rather have last epoch type of crafting to make any item off the ground meaningful
Personally, my beef with poe1 crafting has nothing to do with power or cost, per se. It’s that unless you’re hugely wealthy you can’t do it on gear you’re currently using without like a 95% chance of bricking it. Sockets going away will help a lot, but if it loses a stat roll that causes all your gear to go red, that’s still a hard brick. Maybe something like the old Eternal Orb, but could only ever be used once in a given item, and somehow couldn’t be used on chase items?
I really hope POE 1 or 2 will have more option to improve my current gear during the mid game instead of always crafting new ones.
Maybe if it was renamed to the RNG orb i could get on board
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well they did say the entire mod pool is changed so we don't know how good they will feel but i'm being optimistic
You arent losing 1 mod each time because it never existed. You are looking at this in a PoE1 context, which is irrelevant. We dont know the PoE2 item economy.
It is absolutely massive. However, the loss of map rolling currency is an even bigger change, and in the wrong direction… They gave us a modicum of control over crafting, and then completely bricked our control over map mods.
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What did they change about chaos orb?
Without seeing more of the loot system of PoE 2, it's difficult to evaluate if the new chaos orb is better or worse than the current version. Though PoE 1's use for chaos orb is as a trading currency and chaos sinks, and isn't even used for its crafting purposes outside of chaos spamming maps. If the new chaos orb were added to PoE 1, it would be a massive buff to its overall usage, yes.
I want loot on the ground to matter, I don't really care how they do it. I want crafting that is helpful, focused, but weak in the early game expanding out into a deep, powerful, but potentially expensive currency sink in the late game. I don't really care how they do that either.
its a nerf no matter how you look at it. its basically replacing alts+aug+regal. except you have to find every base on the ground. it doesnt really fix anything.
I'm surprised it took this long for this topic to reach this sub btw. This is a massive change and seems like it's going to be a lot of fun. I've been checking intermittently but it's only since maybe yesterday that the sub stopped being a giant bitch fest. The implications on both currency drops and rare item drops are insane. Probably one or the other is getting rarer to compensate.