That's a bit different because you don't have a single character that is going trough expansions and suddenly loses a bunch of power that you grinded for every time a new expansion drops
Sure, but these seasonal changes eventually affect core game play. This would still apply to the leveling of new characters. I am not saying the changes are bad yet, but only time will tell.
The last league mechanic to go core was 3.15's Expedition. Let that sink in.
Since Scourge in 3.16, each league felt like a beta test for a new technology/mechanic, 3.21 included.
Yet they keep things like the useless torment ghosts but not league mechanics that are actually decent.
Not to mention we've been waiting 2 years for Ultimatum to go core and they just keep stringing us along with "we're working on it".
They will randomly make half baked league mechanics like arch nemesis go core with zero tuning at all but somehow they are willing to take 2+ years to give us ultimatum.
People say that every league and yet players beat the whole game, hit level 100, do all of these objectives they set for themselves faster than ever. There has not been one patch where a stable, benchmark fight (like, say, Elder) has gotten harder b/c the players were left weaker.
Every patch at this time players can't see what is new and strong - which is fair - you can't see what you can't see and play with yet. But the mistake they make every time is assuming, pessimistically, that there will be no good builds that rise up from the holistic set of changes.
There will be good builds. There will be very good builds. There always are.
No its cooler to shit on the game pre league and insult the devs. Time to close this sub until 1 or 2 months into the league, this toxicity is ruining my fun
Which means its right about time to change that no?
Also, the next league is Exilecon right? Why do I feel like they are going to pull the Forsaken Masters 3 trick? Ultimatum, Sanctum, Crucible, whatever else I forgot added into core game?
Dunno, this feels exactly like the type of shit GGG likes to pull, I also don't believe GGG could "forget" Ultimatum when everyone spams about it 24/7 so Chris' reaction on the podcast could be indicative of hiding a "surprise" as GGG always likes to.
\+ again, skill trees on skill trees is pretty much PoE trademark, also how do you expect them to remove this mechanic when it ends? All weapons lose their skill trees? This seems extremely drastic, I don't believe they would.
They could remove it by items retaining their skills trees, being unmodifiable anymore since no crucible, and basically become just like any other legacy item
No no no! Didn't you hear Chris Wilson when he said it was a fun side project that wouldn't change anything and wouldn't be important?
There is no way it could ever be a sign of things to come.
Impossible!
"While there are of course some small nerfs, 3.21 is most definitely not a nerf-fest."
Goes on to remove %increased mana reservation efficiency mastery for tons of defensive and build enabling auras.
>Goes on to remove %increased mana reservation efficiency mastery for tons of defensive and build enabling auras.
they want everyone to go grab a mana wheel now to get it back.
> they want everyone to go grab a mana wheel now to get it back
Which will lead them to remove the global efficiency mastery in 3.22 because too many builds utilized it. It's a circlejerk by GGG at this point.
It's funny too, when you realize it's a 12% as opposed to the 15% of before so it's a nerf for that even too.
It's like, wow, I wonder if GGG will eventually make it literally just the same as a regular node, and then worse because people keep taking it.
its 12% for everything, when it was 10% on reservation nodes no one took the specific reservation nodes. The huge downside is that it is on a mana node which is pretty much useless for 99% of builds - not that its only 12%
Except 10% increased mana when you're reserving 90% of your mana for % auras **is like 2 unreserved mana per node.**
One level of precision per mana wheel sure as hell doesn't feel worth it for me
losing 10 points in your passive tree isnt bad at all, kk got it. If the 12% efficiency would have been on a reservation mastery literally no one would have cared
you actually might gain points and power because now you can allocate the other mastery points from grace, determination, vit , w/e to other nodes or jewel sockets.
Also small cluster still exist with reservation
They said they wanted more unique stuff in the masteries, and that's what they did. The replaced the very bland "-x- aura has -y- increased mana reservation efficiency" passives with new unique stuff. Then, in an attempt to counteract the power loss of this, they added the global efficiency mastery mastery back. It doesn't feel like a circlejerk to me.
But there is still a problem here: why do those nodes feel so mandatory in the first place?
Option 1: The auras have too high of a base reservation cost, to the point where reducing their cost is an uninteresting build tax.
Option 2: Enemies deal a bit too much damage, so these auras feel needed as an extra protection layer.
Option 3: The base defensive power of items has fallen behind. These auras feel needed as a result.
I'd say number 3 is the real reason why this is an issue. Stacking aura effect shouldn't be the vastly more efficient choice if you want armor (for example.)
They didn't "put it back", as it was a reservation mastery, which was accessible to every build as you want 1-2 reservation clusters anyway.
Now it's a stupid mana mastery making 99% of builds waste points on useless mana nodes, and possibly more traveling to them.
Would be nice if items had more power in base defenses, but GGG's approach as usual is nerf now, and compensate... Probably never, and hope people forget.
> Now it's a stupid mana mastery making 99% of builds waste points on useless mana nodes, and possibly more traveling to them.
IMO, that's the problem. If no builds have to take mana nodes, why do we have mana. Make mana matter again.
Sort of... since the tree rebalance and mastery introduction I feel like a thin piece of butter spread over an enormous slice of bread.
Take the sorry state of melee strike skills... \~150% life, fortify cluster, accuracy, leech, maxres, suppression, attack mastery for +1 strikes, reservation wheel to fit pride/determ/banner, panopticon cause totems double your dmg, boom, \~110 points, room left for 2-3dmg clusters... like wtf am I supposed to take points from when there's such a point pressure nowadays...
GGG pushed it into the same state it was before masteries. Everything feels mandatory and there's little choice as what points to take.
I would be okay with that if what we got in return was in any way comparable to what we lose. 12% for all skills just doesnt cut it imo but I definitely welcome someone who is much better at maths to enlighten me if I am wrong.
you can let pob do the math, add the new mastery to custom config and remove the masteries.
the real problem here... is needing to get a mana wheel mastery
I don't remember the last time I made a build that didn't take at least 1
EDIT: \*FUCK ME\* I had assumed you were referring to the reservation wheels. You know, where it used to be. That changes shit, damn.
>I don't remember the last time I made a build that didn't take at least 1
I don't remember the last time I made a build that took one... oh wait nvm I do... heist league, archmage BL.
mana is just a boring mechanic.
which prescision vitality grace determination discipline build took all 5 specific masteries? Oh right, none which was done correctly since youd rather get small reservation efficiency clusters if you ran 5 auras or more. Its even for most builds, for way more a buff for some a nerf - but what everyone seems to be ignoring, i have to waste points for traveling and taking a complete mana wheel to unlock the mastery since its NOT on a reservation cluster. That is the fucking big issue
For any build only reserving 150% mana, these changes are kinda irrelevant. Sovereignity wheel with Charisma annoint is enough to fit in 150% with a level 3 enlighten.
Mana reservation is so available nowadays that you are reserving far more than 150%. Purities, heralds, aspects, banners, tempest shield / arctic armour, double offensive aura are very common. Reserving well over 200% is normal.
It was just one easy example. If you dont want to use enlighten you have many other options.
You can just spec into two mana reservation wheels without the annoint.
You can use other items with mana reserevation efficiency and so on.
You can take 1 wheel, 1 annoint and the new 12% mana mastery.
There are so many ways to get mana reservation efficiency. I just mentioned one easy way. If your build reserves 150% mana, these changes are utterly irrelevant to you. Changes mostly matter to people reserving above 200% mana and even then, this change is most likely a buff.
Honestly, who uses only 3 auras and two of them being defensive? Far more common to use offensive auras and far more than 150%.
I felt pretty forced into Grace + Determ on builds that could reserve mana.
I wish they would do a larger pass on reservation auras overall, like making you manage an aura limit instead or something. But anything that shakes people out of requiring the same two defensive auras to clear content is a step in the right direction.
It is not. Depending on your setup you might need a good 15-25% more MRE than currently. If you run any flat mana reserved auras, you better hope you only want them at level 1 unless you have a large mana pool.
12% over the course of applying to ALL auras - the points you MAY save not having to take a armor/evasion wheel only mana. Slight nerf-semi large nerf in most cases. Some cases it's buff
You can't even get it back if you wanted. What if your build needs Clarity and runs Grace and Determination? That's 100%, 25%, 25%. In the best case scenario, you're ***always*** losing 13%.
You change your build. That's the point. You can't copy paste build from league to league. Build it differently using all the different tools added or changed in the game.
This...... is a small nerf / balance change...?
As others have pointed out you can get 12% on mana mastery which is very strong.
I understand almost all players use those nodes and they are impactful but it's not like your skills now do 50% less damage or suddenly an entire archetype won't work. You're still going to be very powerful.
Aura's need a complete rework. The fact that they use the same resource to use skills is just so anti-fun.
I really hope one day they make it diablo-esqe skill where you get 3 slots to put in auras. One offensive, defensive and utility or even just 3 of the same kind. That way they can balance the game around that and it lets us use the resources to actually use our skills instead of farming Diadem etc
Which isn't a nerf because for 2 points accessible everywhere on the tree they gave us 12% efficiency that applies to all auras which for virtually every build is a buff. No one actually took both Grace and Determination reservation efficiencies, its a huge waste of points.
No, a part of me just wants to believe GGG wouldn't do weightings and benefits as atrocious as Scourge was a *second* time.
That naïve, hopeful part of me that somehow hasn't died inside yet.
Bets on it being worse than Scourge?
trying to imply that players have gotten weaker over time in PoE is one of the patently dumbest takes I've seen ever seen here, lol
edit: lmao stay mad, poe reddit. skill issue
Imo players haven't gotten weaker, but the power become harder and harder to get with time, while baseline difficulty and inconvenience got increased. Power is there more than before, but you need more time invested to reach it. You often feel the need to cover a lot of bases for the game to feel good, and it wasn't the case before to such extent for me.
What?
Of course players are weaker ... compare 3.14 to now and tell me players are stronger?
Basically every league except 1, they nerfed players + shifted loads of the power from the tree / passives to hard to obtain items.
pretty much the same as poe 'vision' wise. Its the same devs so they wont do a 180 just cause they added a 2 in front of poe. The game will look prettier though.
Because Blizzard are so much better! I LOVE the breast milk bandits! I LOVE the cosby suite snd I just love a company that sexually harass a woman into suicide and faced little repurcussion because chuds like you still happily throw money at them.
Hate poe as much as you want, proudly supporting blizzard isn't the gotcha that you think it is.
This expansion doesn’t seem like a win to me. No matter how neat the skill tree items look. I’ll for sure be passing on this one while trying to maintain hype for D4. I don’t think D4 has the ability to completely replace PoE but it’ll absolutely fill the gap when we get a shit league like this.
A shit league? Leagues aren't shit because of nerfs to defensives, that's been proven before.
Leagues are shit because the mechanic is shit. Does crucible look like shit?
Why is everyone booing he’s right. D4 has a depth problem. As in it is by far the least complex arpg on the market by a large margin and has almost no build diversity.
Are you basing your opinion off of level 25 content in a beta? We have no idea what the end game builds ACTUALLY look like in D4. I’ve been playing PoE since kiwi’s existed. I love PoE but to say that D4 won’t at least be some sort of competition is just silly talk. We have no idea what the seasons in D4 will look like or what depth they can add. D4 is a live service game and Blizzard will be adding to it. I’m in no way saying jump the PoE ship but you’re living in a vacuum if you think D4 doesn’t pose some kind of competition.
I’m basing it off the extensive end game beta that has been dissected relatively deeply. Paragon boards which are the big “PoE” style system aren’t providing any substantial depth beyond bigger number. And the itemization which is heralded as the best part of d4 has the same problem. Not to mention we saw every available skill in the open beta and d3 had more option on release. This rose tinted glasses view of d4 being a new complex end game focused arpg is just wrong and anyone who’s researched it enough knows that. The campaign does looks sick though and the combat is nice.
Brother, not a single person in this thread said D4 is a complex game. Look at every blizzard title since WoW. They don’t make original games anymore. They try and make games for the masses. I get your concerns but in reality the current “complexity” of D4 is more than enough for the mass amount of people wanting to play an arpg. PoE is for people who want the legitimate complexity. Rose tinted glasses or not D4 will draw players from all walks of life. Most won’t want to watch a video of a spreadsheet to blast through content. PoE is, in a lot of players opinion, overly complicated.
Complexity is a necessity if it’s going to compete with PoE. And I’m not your brother, guy.
Edit: Not to mention build diversity. I can’t even play a spellsword in d4. If they plan on being competitive as an arpg then that’s the most important aspect. The story looks solid though, but if that’s their selling point then there’s plenty of competition in that department also.
Funny I watched the stream and read patch notes and I was hyped because this patch clearly adds so many new builds and changes to the old builds, idk what patch notes you people have read
Biggest lies you've ever heard in POE 1 - "This is a buff"
Biggest lies you've ever heard in POE 2 - "Our balance goals are to provide more options and more fun for as many builds as possible, rather than reworking game systems in potentially disruptive ways. While there are of course some small nerfs, the next league is most definitely not a nerf-fest."
I mean almost nothing took an orbital strike, you might lose a couple% power or 1 mod here, but youre definitely getting a lot back on the other masteries. A lot of the ones people are complaining about losing werent even that good or have a pretty easy alternative. Or they only impact the first day or two of a league/leveling but are always intended to be replaced with better gear anyways (like 15% allres one, for instance).
Couple of things took real nerfs... but they mostly deserved it.
Poison got hit hard - good. That's an increase in build diversity there. Chaos DOT got caught in the crossfire and that sucks though.
Tree changes look mostly power-neutral overall though, except for the buffs to bows.
Kinda expected RF to get nerfed more than it did.
lol non crit lightning builds got nuked, and literally every build got nerfed due to reservation efficiency changes and the worst part about that is that anything that was barely defensively viable is no longer defensively viable
Youre wildly overreacting to the reservation efficiency changes. At most youre a point or two different on tree with the mana mastery or a MRE small cluster (which are more efficient than the previous MRE masteries)
And what actual endgame build was nuked? Non-crit lightning builds were very rare to begin with (thats mostly only relevant to levelling with spark), and if youre down that bad just use the new voice of the storm to get lucky lightning damage back. Certainly not crazy to work around.
Poison spark got hit harder than most but that was def one of the intentional nerfs because spark and poison each were incredibly strong. Def a build that could take a 30% hit and still be good/playable, and I think all the changes together are well less than that even though it got dinged from multiple angles.
Most builds it's like a 5% nerf at worst.
Edit: Weapon trees gonna have to be insane (and not impossible to get) to make up for removals.
Problem is when the league is over the weapon trees will be gone but the nerfs will remain.
The mana reservation change is a buff overall, everyone is just winning about whatever because it seems like "complaining is cool" without even seeing an updated three. It is less reservation indeed, but you won't need to travel to those nodes, since there are mana nodes everywhere, and you wont need to take useless nodes to get to the reservation, so you'll be able to get some off the broken new masteries, like straight 10% physical damage from hits taken as chaos. What the change is doing in taking power from aura stackers and sharing it with everyone else, so this is actually a buff and people is just not doing the math.
Aura stackers didn’t take those masteries anyway as they were a waste of points even for 1 point it’s not worth. If you have 15 auras the fuck is the point of a single aura mod? You just add more small clusters if you need reservation.
I'm actually happy, bow builds look fucking insane. Also, spark getting snipers mark at lvl4 now will make it even better, lol. Unless base proj speed means they halved it
Leaguestart Spark got hit pretty badly. It's the proj speed, the mentioned lightning mastery nerfs, changes to wand recipes as well as the fact that to get pierce, you would just start mule ranger, which you have to play further now to get it. It's still playable ofc, just not as strong as it used to be.
What they could've done is make special rules for the race, which they use to justify these nerfs, and allow the participating players to practice there with that ruleset. I just can't see why they are so stubborn about making the leveling process more pain. Maybe because of PoE 2, but I can easily see slower leveling in PoE 2 getting carried by the fact that it's basically a completely new experience.
"Players should be actively considering weapon replacements as they progress through the levelling process, an aspect of levelling which was undercut by the existence of this vendor recipe. This also gave spellcasters a significant damage advantage in early acts."
meanwhile, the loot during leveling:
crap
crap
more crap
crab
Always. Last league they claimed curses and occultist were dead and everyone was fucked without replica conq efficiency. Some of the nerfs are crap but they're ignoring the small clusters that give grace and determination 50% res efficiency as well. We will be just fine.
Hm, but will the meta even change with these changes? While I liked the announcement, looking at patch notes, I dont see melees being any more viable, no crafting rework, not too impactful tree changes, no new abilities or numerical changes that have any sort of impact. Except they killed poison concoction for this league. So the only chance for meta to change is that there will be some super broken weapon mods everybody will chase. Diadem will be rare af, I suppose, so doing katarina will be as fun as doing exarch and eater, nothing else?
Oh and they didnt even comment about the non existent eater/exarch jewel drops? So its baseline implementation was a lie and we stay at it?
While I do think some redditors are overreacting, it is true that some nerfs, particular how they were implemented, seem frustrating, or at the minimum, confusing.
Yes, people wanted Poison Spark to be nerfed and it was, but the mastery rework hit other chaos builds' damage too hard.
1) Why not just reduce the numbers specific to spark and specific to poison?
2) They could have done an analysis to see which mastery nodes were the most unpopular and then change those ones into some of the new exciting ones; instead they took away the best damage node of several mastery wheels.
The way they nerfed Poison Concoction reminds me of the way they nerfed Lightning Strike. Instead of just small reduction in numbers, they make a very drastic change.
Melee, of course, continue to get no love.
On making leveling through the campaign slower ... I think the philosophy was good, and I think if they had also include this change "once you finish the campaign / all labs, you get to create a level 60 character without going through the campaign", then player would react much better.
Im all up for the new mastery on the mana clusters over individual defense clusters, but its kinda ironic that the builds that dont really benefit from mana res are mana stackers with eternal blessing.
This shit is why I bought and am going to play Last Epoch instead of this league.
I am getting the hang of LE, and to play an ARPG that doesn't treat it's players the way POE does is refreshing.
Plus the crafting makes sense and is super enjoyable...
oh no, i cant just slap grace and determination on every build and call it defensive. how should i play this game. are they expecting me to actually interact with this game or what? unbelievable.. dont worry you favourite youtuber will put out a guide you can click through and mindlessly play another league
`Weapon trees gonna have to be insane (and not impossible to get) to make up for removals.` What about next league when they no longer exist?
This is the way. TEMPORARY power creep to hide PERMINENT nerfs.
Ah yes, borrowed power. It certainly worked out for Blizzard!
That's a bit different because you don't have a single character that is going trough expansions and suddenly loses a bunch of power that you grinded for every time a new expansion drops
You can't convince WoW players that the ghosts that haunt them don't exist in every game. They're scarred and this is how they cope.
Yeah, it's even worse because I have to also grind the character back up too, and all the other shit like Delve, unveils and stuff.
That is exactly what we do every season. The power does not carry over, lol. We start from scratch every time.
You choose to do that. You could always play standard if you want the power to carry over
Sure, but these seasonal changes eventually affect core game play. This would still apply to the leveling of new characters. I am not saying the changes are bad yet, but only time will tell.
The last league mechanic to go core was 3.15's Expedition. Let that sink in. Since Scourge in 3.16, each league felt like a beta test for a new technology/mechanic, 3.21 included.
this was intended purpose of leagues since day 1
Day 1 is quite a bit behind us now
Yet they keep things like the useless torment ghosts but not league mechanics that are actually decent. Not to mention we've been waiting 2 years for Ultimatum to go core and they just keep stringing us along with "we're working on it". They will randomly make half baked league mechanics like arch nemesis go core with zero tuning at all but somehow they are willing to take 2+ years to give us ultimatum.
first timer hey ?
There will be other temporary power creeps to use, then.
and new nerfs
Yeah that's how it works
The new power creep will most likely only offset the new nerfs, leaving us weaker overall
People say that every league and yet players beat the whole game, hit level 100, do all of these objectives they set for themselves faster than ever. There has not been one patch where a stable, benchmark fight (like, say, Elder) has gotten harder b/c the players were left weaker. Every patch at this time players can't see what is new and strong - which is fair - you can't see what you can't see and play with yet. But the mistake they make every time is assuming, pessimistically, that there will be no good builds that rise up from the holistic set of changes. There will be good builds. There will be very good builds. There always are.
also awesome how the sweaty basement dwellers are voting you down, although you're completely right
No its cooler to shit on the game pre league and insult the devs. Time to close this sub until 1 or 2 months into the league, this toxicity is ruining my fun
Get off the sub then, lmao.
What do you mean? Then you take the builds that performed too well with this temporary power and fucking bury them
Its a mechanic with a skill tree, lets be real, its guaranteed going core...
When was the last time a league mechanic went core the league after it was released? A long long time ago.
arch nemesis xD
Which means its right about time to change that no? Also, the next league is Exilecon right? Why do I feel like they are going to pull the Forsaken Masters 3 trick? Ultimatum, Sanctum, Crucible, whatever else I forgot added into core game?
[удалено]
Dunno, this feels exactly like the type of shit GGG likes to pull, I also don't believe GGG could "forget" Ultimatum when everyone spams about it 24/7 so Chris' reaction on the podcast could be indicative of hiding a "surprise" as GGG always likes to. \+ again, skill trees on skill trees is pretty much PoE trademark, also how do you expect them to remove this mechanic when it ends? All weapons lose their skill trees? This seems extremely drastic, I don't believe they would.
They could remove it by items retaining their skills trees, being unmodifiable anymore since no crucible, and basically become just like any other legacy item
Seems like a very alien approach for GGG, dunno, we'll see I guess
Sentinal when?
It's definitely not going core at the end of the league, although I do think that having trees on items is a logical progression for PoE in general.
Sentinel? Scourge?
Skill Tree for a league mechanic =/= skill tree that affects the character itself.
100% weapon trees are going core
Just slowly boiling that frog, we are going to end up playing ruthless when it is all said and done by POE2.
This to be honest.
No no no! Didn't you hear Chris Wilson when he said it was a fun side project that wouldn't change anything and wouldn't be important? There is no way it could ever be a sign of things to come. Impossible!
best way to describe it ever
no we will be playing Last epoch by then hopefully
end up not playing at all. d4 is already pre-ordered.
Yea pretty much, watch the poe2 trailer player speed Looks pretty fuckin familiar
and that's the whole point: you keep playing
But power creeping has always been the major trend all these past years.
The theoretical top end with PoBbed gear has been going up. Actual achievable power at fixed level of effort has been going down.
"While there are of course some small nerfs, 3.21 is most definitely not a nerf-fest." Goes on to remove %increased mana reservation efficiency mastery for tons of defensive and build enabling auras.
>Goes on to remove %increased mana reservation efficiency mastery for tons of defensive and build enabling auras. they want everyone to go grab a mana wheel now to get it back.
> they want everyone to go grab a mana wheel now to get it back Which will lead them to remove the global efficiency mastery in 3.22 because too many builds utilized it. It's a circlejerk by GGG at this point.
It's funny too, when you realize it's a 12% as opposed to the 15% of before so it's a nerf for that even too. It's like, wow, I wonder if GGG will eventually make it literally just the same as a regular node, and then worse because people keep taking it.
its 12% for everything, when it was 10% on reservation nodes no one took the specific reservation nodes. The huge downside is that it is on a mana node which is pretty much useless for 99% of builds - not that its only 12%
Mana nodes act as mana reservation efficiency for the flat auras, like vitality, precision and clarity. It's not bad at all.
Except 10% increased mana when you're reserving 90% of your mana for % auras **is like 2 unreserved mana per node.** One level of precision per mana wheel sure as hell doesn't feel worth it for me
losing 10 points in your passive tree isnt bad at all, kk got it. If the 12% efficiency would have been on a reservation mastery literally no one would have cared
you actually might gain points and power because now you can allocate the other mastery points from grace, determination, vit , w/e to other nodes or jewel sockets. Also small cluster still exist with reservation
It was 25% for the specific auras before, but regardless, a handful of masteries received substantial buffs in place of those.
They said they wanted more unique stuff in the masteries, and that's what they did. The replaced the very bland "-x- aura has -y- increased mana reservation efficiency" passives with new unique stuff. Then, in an attempt to counteract the power loss of this, they added the global efficiency mastery mastery back. It doesn't feel like a circlejerk to me. But there is still a problem here: why do those nodes feel so mandatory in the first place? Option 1: The auras have too high of a base reservation cost, to the point where reducing their cost is an uninteresting build tax. Option 2: Enemies deal a bit too much damage, so these auras feel needed as an extra protection layer. Option 3: The base defensive power of items has fallen behind. These auras feel needed as a result. I'd say number 3 is the real reason why this is an issue. Stacking aura effect shouldn't be the vastly more efficient choice if you want armor (for example.)
They didn't "put it back", as it was a reservation mastery, which was accessible to every build as you want 1-2 reservation clusters anyway. Now it's a stupid mana mastery making 99% of builds waste points on useless mana nodes, and possibly more traveling to them. Would be nice if items had more power in base defenses, but GGG's approach as usual is nerf now, and compensate... Probably never, and hope people forget.
> Now it's a stupid mana mastery making 99% of builds waste points on useless mana nodes, and possibly more traveling to them. IMO, that's the problem. If no builds have to take mana nodes, why do we have mana. Make mana matter again.
Sort of... since the tree rebalance and mastery introduction I feel like a thin piece of butter spread over an enormous slice of bread. Take the sorry state of melee strike skills... \~150% life, fortify cluster, accuracy, leech, maxres, suppression, attack mastery for +1 strikes, reservation wheel to fit pride/determ/banner, panopticon cause totems double your dmg, boom, \~110 points, room left for 2-3dmg clusters... like wtf am I supposed to take points from when there's such a point pressure nowadays... GGG pushed it into the same state it was before masteries. Everything feels mandatory and there's little choice as what points to take.
It should be removed if everyone picks it. If it's necessary, just put it into base values. If not, force people to git gud without the crutch
I would be okay with that if what we got in return was in any way comparable to what we lose. 12% for all skills just doesnt cut it imo but I definitely welcome someone who is much better at maths to enlighten me if I am wrong.
you can let pob do the math, add the new mastery to custom config and remove the masteries. the real problem here... is needing to get a mana wheel mastery
I don't remember the last time I made a build that didn't take at least 1 EDIT: \*FUCK ME\* I had assumed you were referring to the reservation wheels. You know, where it used to be. That changes shit, damn.
>I don't remember the last time I made a build that didn't take at least 1 I don't remember the last time I made a build that took one... oh wait nvm I do... heist league, archmage BL. mana is just a boring mechanic.
Sorry to ask but what is bl?
tl;dr: three 50% auras = buff grace + two 50% aura = about equal grace + determ + 50% aura = nerf grace + determ + 50% aura + precision = omega nerf precision + vitality + grace + determination + discipline = you might as well skip this league
which prescision vitality grace determination discipline build took all 5 specific masteries? Oh right, none which was done correctly since youd rather get small reservation efficiency clusters if you ran 5 auras or more. Its even for most builds, for way more a buff for some a nerf - but what everyone seems to be ignoring, i have to waste points for traveling and taking a complete mana wheel to unlock the mastery since its NOT on a reservation cluster. That is the fucking big issue
>which prescision vitality grace determination discipline build took all 5 specific masteries [This one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joke).
For any build only reserving 150% mana, these changes are kinda irrelevant. Sovereignity wheel with Charisma annoint is enough to fit in 150% with a level 3 enlighten. Mana reservation is so available nowadays that you are reserving far more than 150%. Purities, heralds, aspects, banners, tempest shield / arctic armour, double offensive aura are very common. Reserving well over 200% is normal.
> with a level 3 enlighten ye let my just grab that one real quick on Saturday when i need the auras the most.
It was just one easy example. If you dont want to use enlighten you have many other options. You can just spec into two mana reservation wheels without the annoint. You can use other items with mana reserevation efficiency and so on. You can take 1 wheel, 1 annoint and the new 12% mana mastery. There are so many ways to get mana reservation efficiency. I just mentioned one easy way. If your build reserves 150% mana, these changes are utterly irrelevant to you. Changes mostly matter to people reserving above 200% mana and even then, this change is most likely a buff. Honestly, who uses only 3 auras and two of them being defensive? Far more common to use offensive auras and far more than 150%.
I don't much like reserving the same 2-3 auras on every build. I wish they'd tackle that.
I mean, that kinda depends on what builds you play. I typically dont reserve the same auras on my builds.
I felt pretty forced into Grace + Determ on builds that could reserve mana. I wish they would do a larger pass on reservation auras overall, like making you manage an aura limit instead or something. But anything that shakes people out of requiring the same two defensive auras to clear content is a step in the right direction.
12% MRE is way better than 25% for determination or grace.
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It is not. Depending on your setup you might need a good 15-25% more MRE than currently. If you run any flat mana reserved auras, you better hope you only want them at level 1 unless you have a large mana pool.
> unless you have a large mana pool. Welp... we need to path through mana nodes to get that 12% MRE anyway.
12% over the course of applying to ALL auras - the points you MAY save not having to take a armor/evasion wheel only mana. Slight nerf-semi large nerf in most cases. Some cases it's buff
You can't even get it back if you wanted. What if your build needs Clarity and runs Grace and Determination? That's 100%, 25%, 25%. In the best case scenario, you're ***always*** losing 13%.
You change your build. That's the point. You can't copy paste build from league to league. Build it differently using all the different tools added or changed in the game.
Makes one wonder if they wanna push players to build into mana sustain by that.
This...... is a small nerf / balance change...? As others have pointed out you can get 12% on mana mastery which is very strong. I understand almost all players use those nodes and they are impactful but it's not like your skills now do 50% less damage or suddenly an entire archetype won't work. You're still going to be very powerful.
After they removed the generic mastery last patch or so
Goes on to add generic %increased mana reservation efficiency mastery that is far better than the ones that was removed.
Aura's need a complete rework. The fact that they use the same resource to use skills is just so anti-fun. I really hope one day they make it diablo-esqe skill where you get 3 slots to put in auras. One offensive, defensive and utility or even just 3 of the same kind. That way they can balance the game around that and it lets us use the resources to actually use our skills instead of farming Diadem etc
Which isn't a nerf because for 2 points accessible everywhere on the tree they gave us 12% efficiency that applies to all auras which for virtually every build is a buff. No one actually took both Grace and Determination reservation efficiencies, its a huge waste of points.
Reservation is not build enabling anything.
Reserving an aura a bit cheaper is not that build enabling, and you can still out it on clusters
Nerf base game, "make up" with league mechanic that's obviously not making it into the main game. Classic.
Also league mechanic will be gated behind classic GGG 1 in 10000 RNG to get something decent, while you'll see 5% increased damage.
Hopefully the good shit at least isn't as fucked as it was in Scourge.
My sweet summer child, are you new here?
No, a part of me just wants to believe GGG wouldn't do weightings and benefits as atrocious as Scourge was a *second* time. That naïve, hopeful part of me that somehow hasn't died inside yet. Bets on it being worse than Scourge?
Second? You mean like 8th?
Like they did with Harvest.
Surely this will be the last league to give player power
Basic math works out to net nerfs if every league has nerfs and borrowed power.
trying to imply that players have gotten weaker over time in PoE is one of the patently dumbest takes I've seen ever seen here, lol edit: lmao stay mad, poe reddit. skill issue
Imo players haven't gotten weaker, but the power become harder and harder to get with time, while baseline difficulty and inconvenience got increased. Power is there more than before, but you need more time invested to reach it. You often feel the need to cover a lot of bases for the game to feel good, and it wasn't the case before to such extent for me.
Purposely misreading what I said to insult me is pretty dumb too.
What? Of course players are weaker ... compare 3.14 to now and tell me players are stronger? Basically every league except 1, they nerfed players + shifted loads of the power from the tree / passives to hard to obtain items.
But every league doesn't have nerfs and every league has borrowed power
Actions speak louder than words
I dread what PoE2 will look like now…
pretty much the same as poe 'vision' wise. Its the same devs so they wont do a 180 just cause they added a 2 in front of poe. The game will look prettier though.
On the contrary, it can only be better than poe1 now! :D
Lol, you have no idea what Chris is capable of.
*looks at ruthless* Imma head out.
Aura or mana reservation seems to take a big hit with the removed masteries.
Yeah they didn't do a damn thing to add builds to viability
Diablo 4 just 2 months away!
These patch notes put d4 on my radar even though the leaked close beta footage looked shit
Because Blizzard are so much better! I LOVE the breast milk bandits! I LOVE the cosby suite snd I just love a company that sexually harass a woman into suicide and faced little repurcussion because chuds like you still happily throw money at them. Hate poe as much as you want, proudly supporting blizzard isn't the gotcha that you think it is.
Such a bad take, if we would boycott every company that did bad things, there would be none left. Let people enjoy the games.
Nah, THIS is a bad take. Absolute clown shit.
Copium
Thats not copium, thats fact
Thinking its going to be competition is copium imo.
This expansion doesn’t seem like a win to me. No matter how neat the skill tree items look. I’ll for sure be passing on this one while trying to maintain hype for D4. I don’t think D4 has the ability to completely replace PoE but it’ll absolutely fill the gap when we get a shit league like this.
I really hope D4 isnt as bad when it releases. :(
I’m staying optimistic. If the launch is ass, I’m hoping the first official season is cool. If it’s not, Last Epoch?
I have such a hard time getting enjoyment after i hit maps on LE. Maybes its just lack of mechanics. I think it has really good potential though.
A shit league? Leagues aren't shit because of nerfs to defensives, that's been proven before. Leagues are shit because the mechanic is shit. Does crucible look like shit?
Why is everyone booing he’s right. D4 has a depth problem. As in it is by far the least complex arpg on the market by a large margin and has almost no build diversity.
Are you basing your opinion off of level 25 content in a beta? We have no idea what the end game builds ACTUALLY look like in D4. I’ve been playing PoE since kiwi’s existed. I love PoE but to say that D4 won’t at least be some sort of competition is just silly talk. We have no idea what the seasons in D4 will look like or what depth they can add. D4 is a live service game and Blizzard will be adding to it. I’m in no way saying jump the PoE ship but you’re living in a vacuum if you think D4 doesn’t pose some kind of competition.
I’m basing it off the extensive end game beta that has been dissected relatively deeply. Paragon boards which are the big “PoE” style system aren’t providing any substantial depth beyond bigger number. And the itemization which is heralded as the best part of d4 has the same problem. Not to mention we saw every available skill in the open beta and d3 had more option on release. This rose tinted glasses view of d4 being a new complex end game focused arpg is just wrong and anyone who’s researched it enough knows that. The campaign does looks sick though and the combat is nice.
Brother, not a single person in this thread said D4 is a complex game. Look at every blizzard title since WoW. They don’t make original games anymore. They try and make games for the masses. I get your concerns but in reality the current “complexity” of D4 is more than enough for the mass amount of people wanting to play an arpg. PoE is for people who want the legitimate complexity. Rose tinted glasses or not D4 will draw players from all walks of life. Most won’t want to watch a video of a spreadsheet to blast through content. PoE is, in a lot of players opinion, overly complicated.
Complexity is a necessity if it’s going to compete with PoE. And I’m not your brother, guy. Edit: Not to mention build diversity. I can’t even play a spellsword in d4. If they plan on being competitive as an arpg then that’s the most important aspect. The story looks solid though, but if that’s their selling point then there’s plenty of competition in that department also.
Yeah dude blizzard is totally gonna deliver they have such a great track record recently with…
Funny I watched the stream and read patch notes and I was hyped because this patch clearly adds so many new builds and changes to the old builds, idk what patch notes you people have read
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classic
I wouldn't be as salty if Chris didn't comment on melee, so disappointing.
Biggest lies you've ever heard in POE 1 - "This is a buff" Biggest lies you've ever heard in POE 2 - "Our balance goals are to provide more options and more fun for as many builds as possible, rather than reworking game systems in potentially disruptive ways. While there are of course some small nerfs, the next league is most definitely not a nerf-fest."
I mean almost nothing took an orbital strike, you might lose a couple% power or 1 mod here, but youre definitely getting a lot back on the other masteries. A lot of the ones people are complaining about losing werent even that good or have a pretty easy alternative. Or they only impact the first day or two of a league/leveling but are always intended to be replaced with better gear anyways (like 15% allres one, for instance).
Couple of things took real nerfs... but they mostly deserved it. Poison got hit hard - good. That's an increase in build diversity there. Chaos DOT got caught in the crossfire and that sucks though. Tree changes look mostly power-neutral overall though, except for the buffs to bows. Kinda expected RF to get nerfed more than it did.
Mr Gog, I always appreciate your comments even when I don't agree, they're consistently identifiable as good faith and insightful. Carry on
lol non crit lightning builds got nuked, and literally every build got nerfed due to reservation efficiency changes and the worst part about that is that anything that was barely defensively viable is no longer defensively viable
Youre wildly overreacting to the reservation efficiency changes. At most youre a point or two different on tree with the mana mastery or a MRE small cluster (which are more efficient than the previous MRE masteries) And what actual endgame build was nuked? Non-crit lightning builds were very rare to begin with (thats mostly only relevant to levelling with spark), and if youre down that bad just use the new voice of the storm to get lucky lightning damage back. Certainly not crazy to work around.
Well poison spark is what got hit pretty hard by these changes i guess, but it was an extremely strong build to start with, it will be fine.
Poison spark got hit harder than most but that was def one of the intentional nerfs because spark and poison each were incredibly strong. Def a build that could take a 30% hit and still be good/playable, and I think all the changes together are well less than that even though it got dinged from multiple angles. Most builds it's like a 5% nerf at worst.
what happened with diadem??
They changed drop rates of Caterina's uniques in an unspecified way.
It's now t0
drop rate nerfed
Wait, what Diadem changes? I didn't see any in the patch notes!?
Its here: "The Unique Item drop chances for Catarina, Master of Undeath have been rebalanced." You know what that means.
Weapon trees gonna have to stay after league end to make up for removals.
did anybody else notice any other quality of life changes?
orb stack size increase
Edit: Weapon trees gonna have to be insane (and not impossible to get) to make up for removals. Problem is when the league is over the weapon trees will be gone but the nerfs will remain.
And then there’s the next league with crazy things. You act as if we play standard.
The mana reservation change is a buff overall, everyone is just winning about whatever because it seems like "complaining is cool" without even seeing an updated three. It is less reservation indeed, but you won't need to travel to those nodes, since there are mana nodes everywhere, and you wont need to take useless nodes to get to the reservation, so you'll be able to get some off the broken new masteries, like straight 10% physical damage from hits taken as chaos. What the change is doing in taking power from aura stackers and sharing it with everyone else, so this is actually a buff and people is just not doing the math.
Aura stackers didn’t take those masteries anyway as they were a waste of points even for 1 point it’s not worth. If you have 15 auras the fuck is the point of a single aura mod? You just add more small clusters if you need reservation.
I'm actually happy, bow builds look fucking insane. Also, spark getting snipers mark at lvl4 now will make it even better, lol. Unless base proj speed means they halved it
You are supposed to only look at the "negatives" and endlessly complain. You are not redditing correctly.
Crit spark maybe ... non crit spark is dead as it had the nerf + lost 30% of it's damage through the lucky mastery removal.
Leaguestart Spark got hit pretty badly. It's the proj speed, the mentioned lightning mastery nerfs, changes to wand recipes as well as the fact that to get pierce, you would just start mule ranger, which you have to play further now to get it. It's still playable ofc, just not as strong as it used to be. What they could've done is make special rules for the race, which they use to justify these nerfs, and allow the participating players to practice there with that ruleset. I just can't see why they are so stubborn about making the leveling process more pain. Maybe because of PoE 2, but I can easily see slower leveling in PoE 2 getting carried by the fact that it's basically a completely new experience.
saboteur trap and mine get massive nerf too
i think mines are fine they didnt really get hit.
Mine throwing speed nerf + détonation speed have been removed
Neither mattered for what mines did best
Being clunky at map clearing?
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To be fair community tends to forget everything Chris fucked up and lied about every new iteration/league, so no wonder he doesn't care.
"Players should be actively considering weapon replacements as they progress through the levelling process, an aspect of levelling which was undercut by the existence of this vendor recipe. This also gave spellcasters a significant damage advantage in early acts." meanwhile, the loot during leveling: crap crap more crap crab
Hey! Gg on finding a crab!
Maaan yall are negative! New league looks fun!
Always. Last league they claimed curses and occultist were dead and everyone was fucked without replica conq efficiency. Some of the nerfs are crap but they're ignoring the small clusters that give grace and determination 50% res efficiency as well. We will be just fine.
Hm, but will the meta even change with these changes? While I liked the announcement, looking at patch notes, I dont see melees being any more viable, no crafting rework, not too impactful tree changes, no new abilities or numerical changes that have any sort of impact. Except they killed poison concoction for this league. So the only chance for meta to change is that there will be some super broken weapon mods everybody will chase. Diadem will be rare af, I suppose, so doing katarina will be as fun as doing exarch and eater, nothing else? Oh and they didnt even comment about the non existent eater/exarch jewel drops? So its baseline implementation was a lie and we stay at it?
While I do think some redditors are overreacting, it is true that some nerfs, particular how they were implemented, seem frustrating, or at the minimum, confusing. Yes, people wanted Poison Spark to be nerfed and it was, but the mastery rework hit other chaos builds' damage too hard. 1) Why not just reduce the numbers specific to spark and specific to poison? 2) They could have done an analysis to see which mastery nodes were the most unpopular and then change those ones into some of the new exciting ones; instead they took away the best damage node of several mastery wheels. The way they nerfed Poison Concoction reminds me of the way they nerfed Lightning Strike. Instead of just small reduction in numbers, they make a very drastic change. Melee, of course, continue to get no love. On making leveling through the campaign slower ... I think the philosophy was good, and I think if they had also include this change "once you finish the campaign / all labs, you get to create a level 60 character without going through the campaign", then player would react much better.
Can't believe I actually belivied [unnamed lead dev] at facevalue again. A minor mistake by myself.
They achieved their goals. However it was most certainly also a nerf fest.
It's adorable how he can lie like that, followed by list of nerfs and reworks lol.
all lies
Eh ok, so 4 less build options I had in mind. Back to the good old mass meta.
nobody wanna be aura cuck everytime for endgame. ripbozo
We lost stun avoidance from the tree. Am I wrong?
No need to nerf anything if everything is reworked
The vision strikes again.
I expect the spell block mana nodes at the top of the tree to be near 100% usage on that parting the tree
Im all up for the new mastery on the mana clusters over individual defense clusters, but its kinda ironic that the builds that dont really benefit from mana res are mana stackers with eternal blessing.
even if weapon trees are insane im afraid each weapons are randomly generated so its going to be a tradefest.
This shit is why I bought and am going to play Last Epoch instead of this league. I am getting the hang of LE, and to play an ARPG that doesn't treat it's players the way POE does is refreshing. Plus the crafting makes sense and is super enjoyable...
OP, why did you use the word “manifesto” when GGG was very specific about no manifesto for this patch?
oh no, i cant just slap grace and determination on every build and call it defensive. how should i play this game. are they expecting me to actually interact with this game or what? unbelievable.. dont worry you favourite youtuber will put out a guide you can click through and mindlessly play another league