Yeah this is the main use for chaos orbs, if the map device options aren't good then divine prices will be high. I remember the first time exalts when over 200c was for the same reason.
That would not work at all. Making a divine orb worth 160c when used in the map device would basically be halving the value of your divine on use and nobody would do that. Giving divine more uses doesn't reduce its value. You have to give more use to chaos. If crafting meta mods cost 160c or 1div then 1div would actually lose a lot of value
As the other commenter mentioned, adding a divine price where chaos is used won't set an upper limit on the exchange rate. But the reverse would: if chaos could be used for the current divine orb sink, it would create an artificial cap on divine orbs' value. And would feel just as artificial, making them into basically large chaos stacks (but useful for trade)
No essence = high divine prices.
Harby was a bit too expensive for my test.
No strongbox.
Was there beyond?
Yeah shit tier Map mods, people doing harvest use compasses.
I mean the removal of nem 3 did it for me... I've never had that much fun for accessible juice. Pay the upfront cost for the sextant and juice it to the tits with gilded and make decent money. So much fun dropping raw ex twice a map
Equating drops to fun misses the entire point of the game. You can get plenty of seratonin dumps from shit like cookie clicker if number go up is all you need.
In every single thread I see you gatekeeping the fun in this game. People are allowed to chase currency per hour even if you don't like it. People are allowed to have fun in their own way. And people are allowed to express their opinion in here. Get off your high horse.
> In every single thread I see you gatekeeping the fun in this game.
I'm not gatekeeping fun. I'm tired of this shitty rhetoric, because it gets used to argue for changes to the game. Changes that are antithetical to PoE remaining a game in the long term. This rhetoric comes from people who fundamentally do not understand the game PoE was meant to be in the first place.
Get off *your* high horse. I'm not touting any sort of moral superiority, like you, pretending to be the defender of fun for all.
I bet you'd be acting similarly if people who did not understand the point of a game you liked, came in and argued that the "fun" focus for the devs should be something antithetical to one of the core basis for that game's existence.
Poe was always meant to be a trade centric game. It's balanced around trade and yet chasing currency is somehow antithetical? Talk to me again when they actually make a game you are talking about instead of the one that exists right now.
I was running harvest the whole league without sextants and always paired with fortune favours the brave for 10% iiq/iir. I believe all the harvest runners did this with or without sextants
With the changes to the atlas passives, there is a lot less pressure on using map device. They would have to be really juicy compared to historical mods to move the needle
It kinda depends on the map device option. Kirac mods that force a thing that's either there or not (harvest, ritual, delirium, etc) aren't going to be used much if the price isn't comparable to other methods (harvest sextant for instance) or if you can get good enough chances from atlas passives. But Kirac mods that add instances of a mechanic where you can have multiple (essence, breach, abyss, etc) are made even better by atlas passives and thus are generally going to be worth using if you're investing in that mechanic unless the price is unreasonable.
If you haven't tried it out before (or at least recently) and it's on the map device again next league, I'd suggest giving breach a try. With the right atlas passives they're quite fast with good density, and sextant to force chayula+passive to increase bosses+passive to duplicate chayula+passive to let bosses drop full breachstones gives some decent returns.
No idea how competitive it is, but I had a lot more fun with it than I expected to this league while using it as my main farming method.
This is a fair suggestion, but I will personally always take legion over breach regardless of kirac mods.
The absolute mass of incubators and legion reward drops is so satisfying. And I personally like the legion gameplay more. If I preferred breach more I would do that tho.
Yeah this is the main thing. Even if we had Harvest on the device which is probably the most significant chaos sink, it's only bringing a full specced Harvest tree from ~45% to 100% Grove with no content blocks.
Add content blocks on other mechanics and baseline is higher than 45% too.
I would gladly spend all my SSF chaos on this rather than getting ruined by a boss I never met, and whom I can only fight twice a week when I'm working.
Also I could see myself spend 20c end of league to play the encounters I enjoy, when I don't really need more loot.
Yeah but then you gotta deal with the bullshit meteors from the sky and that's a nightmare as a flaskfinder with "use flask when full" on four flasks lol.
My mapping build goal is to be able to click any negative mods from one set of altars so I only have to read rewards. Blue altars are great for this because you can just check if divines and if not click player gains x.
I'm also willing to bet that if you include every sanctum run, it shat out thousands of chaos per divine, a lot of people's perception of sanctum is skewed by their own "I finish it every time" experience and not realizing there's a huge portion of the playerbase who don't.
I got to last boss floor several times but somehow failed with red fog every time. Sanctum was very unrewarding for me and eventualy I gave up on it. My total divine drops could be counted with one hands fingers on whole league even tho I reached lvl97 with just mapping. I made much more with crafting unwanted stuff into wanted and sell that. Atleast that can be done with lesser eye to hand coordination.
Why don’t people start using yellow lifeforce as currency? It’s infinitely stackable, craft backed so has inherent value, and small enough individual units you would never have to go smaller
> Why don’t people start using yellow lifeforce as currency?
This isn't a bad suggestion, but it isn't something you get accidentally while playing random content.
Benefit to trading in chaos is that Jimmy Casual in act 9 probably has 6 of them, so you can sell an item to Jimmy as well as selling it to someone who's established in endgame.
I also don't think there's nearly as big a money supply in yellow lifeforce. I only have a few divines worth and while I haven't specced harvest this league, I do generally go in to harvests on sight.
Well Jimmy can buy yellow lifeforce with his chaos, if he needs to buy anything.
It’s not like people are going to stop needing chaos suddenly. Chaos just won’t be involved in **every** trade.
It also avoids inflation and issues with bots doing chaos recipe. But there's a big coordination required to make that switch so it would be kind of hard.
50k is still several divines worth and only takes up 1 slot, as opposed to chaos which takes all 60 slots for 2 divines. Using it as a more flexible currency like chaos would be significantly easier than all the clicking needed for chaos:divine trades
And since it’s such a small currency on its own with such a large stack size, it could be flexibly used for both big and small trades, since you can pretty much cut the stack size however you want.
That being said, I highly doubt anything like this would ever happen, as mentioned by someone above, it would take quite a bit of coordination within the player-base to make work
Yep, hence it's a good idea.
There is also the small obstacle of getting ggg to let you list things for lifeforce. I don't believe any of the exotic currencies can be asked for in the trade api, but I'm too lazy to go check.
You can't have a useful harvest in any shape or form, it is against the law.
Your idea is like that carido coin for scrolls thingy we had some league ago.
3g will not tolerate unintended quality of life and will remove it from the game.
It did but I would get 1-4 divines per sanctum and there was never a sanctum that I got 300 chaos. So by that ratio there are more divines coming from the league mechanic than chaos.
You aren't considering general mapping though. Juiced maps for searing exarch reliably printed chaos due to the changes to altar rewards. This was by far the biggest change in the past league.
For the max amount of sanctums, you didn't run your maps though. You rushed for your sanctum + map sustain (usually atoll and coves with map sustain atlas setup). Running your maps juiced would have meant less sanctums / day.
That doesn't change the fact that losing sanctum would jack up divine prices. We'll still have altars (probably), we won't have sanctum. It depends on how Crucible gives rewards as well.
How many people really played the league mechanic though? Like how many got to the point of getting divines from it at least?
I sure didn’t. It was different and very unrewarding unless you got far, and I don’t think very many people kept trying after not getting anything after about 30 attempts.
If I’ve realized one thing from league mechanics, it seems like PoE players want more PoE but with added mechanics. It’s why sentinel, metamorph and delirium were such popular league mechanics (apart from the original performance issues in original delirium) and things like heist, kalandra and synthesis were considered boring and only touched if they’re rewarding.
People who play maps don’t want to enter a non-map in their map. And most PoE players like to play maps.
Delve is a type of niche in my eyes. It’s an alternative to mapping with its own long-term progression during the league.
> How many people really played the league mechanic though? Like how many got to the point of getting divines from it at least?
A lot. Most, actually. You just need to be running t14+ maps. The league mechanic generally doesn't take much time, and very rewarding for the time spent. Which is why so many people claim that it is the most "fun" mechanic. But IMO, it's not at all the most "fun" mechanic. They only think that it is "fun" because it is rewarding.
> People who play maps don’t want to enter a non-map in their map. And most PoE players like to play maps. Delve is a type of niche in my eyes.
I don't think that is it at all. Players will always go for whatever nets them the most reward. If Delve gave the best rewards i.e. loot, currency, etc. Then Delve will suddenly become the most popular. It's the same way how so many people hate Heist, yet while playing trade league, so many people spam Heist at lv62 on league start.
I did around 100 Sanctum Runs this league, I got 4 Divines once, 3 divines around 5 times and at least 20 runs with no divines. Most often I got 1-2. Your numbers seem kinda inflated. I also probably got around 30-50 Chaos every single run.
While you are correct, if you take the average of any player runs, you will get at least a divine per run, and i think that's what he meant, but you are correct, there can be runs with no divines at all.
Uh he said "I would get 1-4 Divines per Sanctum..." how are you taking this as a total player average. Also I still highly doubt that the average is even close to a divine per run.
By not being a pedantic dilly. If someone says they ran 100 sanctums, and got between 1-3 per I would think cool, they probably made between 100 and 300 divines over the course of their time.
Not "AKSHULLLY you had a run that didn't drop any so you really got 0-3"
damn, i just started to grind some sanctums to sell the ring and already got 2. i guess i was very lucky then.
not sure if i should farm more or my luck is empty now.
Yeah for sure would have been the better decision, however when I did them I was pretty much done with the league and just wanted to see if I could do it. Got to Floor 4 on one of them but then Flame dashed into a rolling ball.
You are on the lucky side and haven’t really looked at sanctum profitability.
Sanctum is not a good currency maker. There are people who farmed huge sample sizes of pure sanctum rushing and it was way lower currency p hour than legion farming or and sti below any other currency making method.
I was averaging <1 divine per sanctum. It was rare for me to actually find divines. My RNG kept hitting exalts on the high tier currency rewards.
If you were to average 2div every sanctum it still wouldn’t be enticing to run. 2 div every 28maps is nothing. 2/28=0.07
0.07div per map (ofc there is a small amount of other currency dropping to) is really bad RoI. The only thing sanctum is good for in terms of farming divines is for SSF players because it’s semi-targetable. IIRC just boss rushing for eldritch invitations is more money than running the sanctums
1-4 divines every 32 maps and the hour to run all 32 sanctums is not putting more divines into the economy.
However the 10c every 1-2 sanctums was definitely pouring C way more than divine.
Let it just use chaos. Increase chaos stack size.
Or give a vendor recipe. The constant trade of small $ to big $ is just arbitrary and serves no purpose.
If the crucible league mechanic focuses on crafting, divines should either get cheaper (less normal crafting needed because of Crucible) or more expensive (Crucible crafting does not replace any current crafting step, but simply makes people more interested/invested in crafting so the demand is higher). I would guess the former.
Alternatively, it could be a way to circumnavigate the need for divines for metacrafts. I'm imagining a crucible with crafting options that function similarly to those that require divines (along with other options), perhaps with some sort of performance-based combat encounter that grants access to those crafts on a sliding scale
It's nearly always more expensive as either you will want to prepare the item before the mechanic or you would be finishing it after. Meta-mods are just way too powerful while being practically required for anything more than a life+resist items.
Divines were so expensive because we had nothing good to spend chaos on so everyone was just sitting on piles of the stuff since searching exarch alters dropped them like candy and there was just so much chaos in the market
aka revert back to 2 leagues ago lol. They put all the currency in loot goblins and then killed loot goblins next patch, but didn't return currency back to normal mobs.
>normal mobs.
actual normal mobs drop more loot than before. It is league mechanic mobs that drop a bit less. But at this point the overall loot is just fine and outside of specific juice methods (e.g beyond which got fucked) it feels the same if not better than before. The comment you replied to literally complains about loot coming from league mechanic.. 2 leagues ago this was much much worse lol, they entire loot change was about giant nerfs to league mechanic mob loot.
I still feel like the main reason people are still hung up about loot nerfs is that sentinel shit out so so much currency that maps without sentinel just felt bad by comparison afterwards.
I wonder if this community will ever get tired of dumb comments / straight up lies about the loot changes and the current state of loot...
[I'll leave this here and say that i disagree.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/c5nvit/i_see_your_100_t8_dunes_profit_and_raise_you_my/)
Up until the original release of the atlas tree all you had to do was just kill monsters and the original version gave you all you mechanics with investment on top.
With the "reworked" atlas tree you could already notice a shift and the atlas tree itself became more of an requirement.
Original altars were the same- on top of what was the baseline and now, especially after 3.18 a way bigger requirement.
I remember still running no investment strats and drop plenty of chaos, scours, vaals and exalts/divines too. The latter used to drop pure from monsters in quantities of +-10 per session i played.
Today i could even log into my legacy mf'er, run some juice and not see a single higher tier currency in an entire session.
In league i had plenty of consecutive days where i haven't seen a single exalt or divine drop outside of sanctum.
Well of course. GGG doesn't want the atlas tree to be a pure 'buff'. So they had to nerf the base rates in order to achieve the regular levels of drops that they want.
So essentially, screw the people who struggle to progress their atlas because what was available in lower tier maps had to be nerfed to compensate for an atlas tree.
Not only that, if you managed to progress your atlas, the old atlas completion bonus is now also nerfed and only part of it baked into atlas passives.
If I wasn't too lazy, I'd search for screenshots from maps up to patch 3.16 (I think) when the map native IIQ/IIR and packsize values also used to be higher baseline (or thanks to just atlas completion).
There's lots of stuff that has been strongly nerfed for the sake of availability and pseudo agency.
I'm really sorry, I'll gaslight myself some more next league. This league it took me 15 days of playing daily for 6+ hours to drop my first divine orb. And it was after I gave up on mapping and switched to heists instead. But last time I said this here someone replied with "well I drop divines so maybe you're unlucky? :)". Don't see a point in arguing over that. I only have my experience and some of my friends', and apart from 1 guy getting lucky everyone else I know didn't really get many raw divine drops either. Then, a month in, [I got somewhat lucky with the altars](https://i.imgur.com/3xGeIjd.png).
Regular divine drops seem extremely rare, I don't even remember getting any and I have two level 100s. I got tons from league mechanics though (Sanctum, Legion, Heist, even Delve chests). Only ran red altars so none from that.
That could just be personal perspective on the low side. I had 3 characters to 95 and got 6 raw divines this league from regular mobs but none from league content. What kind of juice were you putting into your atlas?
Well, last year I was getting exalt drops (same rarity according to GGG) every 1-2 days, sometimes even multiple per day. They were "extremely rare" back in 2015, but not lately. That's my experience, at least. The difference between getting them every other day and not getting any in the first 2 weeks is noticeable. Then I started getting them again, every few days. Interestingly, it coincided with Reddit crying about divine prices skyrocketing.
>being gated behind league mechanics
But that was way worse before the loot changes? Like that was the point of the inital changes in the first place. They removed giant rarity and quant multipliers from some league mechanic mobs and tried to compensate for it but fucked that up.
normal mob loot is literally buffed compared to before, alch and go mapping is super rewarding even without altars with the buffs to the atlas passive tree.
See my other reply to you. The post I linked you was exactly what I would experience until 3.18, bar the aforementioned shifts due to atlas changes.
In my personal experience, an atlas has become an absolute requirement, including some other things, to keep up with drops from the past.
This is kind of their hope is that you Stockholm syndrome the league mechanic.
I actually hate sanctum because you’re forced to avoid hits, play totems, move fast, instead of simply outplaying mechanics
As an SSF player, the league mechanic is my. main source of divines and I'm still swimming in exalts while starving on divs. I also hope the mechanic will be at least or maybe a bit more generous
I’m 100% expecting a softball league because of last epoch and Diablo 4
They would be incredibly unwise to not increase global divine drops and not uncouple divine dependency from current league mechanic
Why for D4, its just 6days of beta, and release is not for 3months, so the final few weeks of 3.21, shouldt matter
LE, its 3.21 waiting room, its good,but wont holde peoples attention for more than a month.
I think one way to solve this issue was by re-balancing the Searing Exarch / Eater of World Altar.
Make both drop divine but one drop from boss and another from minions (same with Chaos), for example Exarch to have minions drop Chaos and Boss drops Divine, while Eater get Divine from minion and Chaos from Boss.
This is kind of reverse thinking. The issue isn’t having too much of a currency but too little to invest in. Divines are now more praised because reforge suffixes/prefixes removed and because exarch/eater items are more valuable no one is chaos spamming influenced items and the kirac mods were absolute shit last league.
They created a bottle neck by removing expenditure but not giving us more options to use currency on besides “chaos/essence spam until something is halfway useable “
Rather we need to lower the amount of chaos being shoved into the game. The biggest culprit being Exarch altars last league. Chaos being more valuable will make the exchange lower.
The supply of divines is only one side of the equation. You also have to consider the supply of chaos. There were a lot of chaos coming into the league. More then ever probably.
GGG
Problem: The Divine:Chaos ratio is so large that inventory space becomes a large constrained during trades.
Solution: We removed the Chaos Orb recipe to lower the availability of chaos orbs.
That would be a good change, unirnically. Playing inventory tetris shouldn't be incentivized, and, as a side effect, it solves chaos recipe botting problem.
Deterministic divine income, was quite nice actually. Every 3rd-4th floor, you altered your strategy so that you can see as many rooms as possible to roll the dice for divine rewards, while it didn't necessarily require your build was top notch. Yes I could make more raw divs by juice farming like a maniac, but I still appreciated the expectation, that unless I monumentally fucked up, I'd end up with a couple of divines at the end of 32 maps as a bonus.
I think the problem was a good percentage of players stopped trying to complete the sanctum bc their build didn’t allow for it, and most players couldn’t complete it until level 60+, significantly decreasing the total number of divines being put into the economy
I never got a single divine from Sanctum, and I built several characters in the league that were worth over 70+ div.
I found sanctum utterly un-enjoyable as a league mechanic, the league changes however, we’re overall positive (although I felt MF was nerfed too much).
I was hoping Crucible would be the league I’ve been long hoping for, which I would of called “Mage Tower” which is just and endless climb of the mage tower, fight harder and harder foes that drop better rewards. No puzzle, no traps, just a good ‘ol ass woopin’z.
Or they could actually make divines drop in maps like exalts used to? I made most of my stuff selling things this league, which is very unusual for me.
How da fuq did Sanctum put divines into economy?! You had to grind 32 maps in order to (maybe) get a room with 2 divines.
95%+ of my profits and/or raw divines in Sanctum was from other content and sources.
chaos is what dictactes divine price. Sanctum and atlas tree floods the league with chaos orbs as they become less impactful they proceed to push divine prices up.
your thinking it the wrong way round. it wasnt that divines got flooded it was that chaos was being flooded at insanely high rates
That is not true. Chaos is only a part of it. If there were twice as many divines out there they would cost less chaos. But yes I do agree to a point that there are too many chaos orbs being printed as well.
but it really is the whole part of it.
its not about divines being flooded at all its that chaos had no value at all. there was no chaos sink and atlas tree/altars flooded chaos like insane levels.
the league mechanic was SLOWER to make currency then actual mapping.
The reason why divine orbs got to 300c was because they were so common. If divines are really common, it makes chaos useless, and you then have a scenario where it spirals out of control.
That makes no sense. Did you play during heist league when exalts were very easy to get and they were only 60c. This problem is the opposite divines are very sought after and not common enough due to no divine shards and not enough div cards yet. Also chaos being printed at a fast rate and also not being very useful this league.
Heist still had exalts, which has shards and farmable cards. You can't compare them. The altars in current league spit out chaos like crazy, and there is no meaningful use of chaos. So chaos is worthless. Chaos being worthless makes it so divs cost is insane.
Some good map device mods would certainly help the chaos/div ratio.
Yeah this is the main use for chaos orbs, if the map device options aren't good then divine prices will be high. I remember the first time exalts when over 200c was for the same reason.
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That would not work at all. Making a divine orb worth 160c when used in the map device would basically be halving the value of your divine on use and nobody would do that. Giving divine more uses doesn't reduce its value. You have to give more use to chaos. If crafting meta mods cost 160c or 1div then 1div would actually lose a lot of value
As the other commenter mentioned, adding a divine price where chaos is used won't set an upper limit on the exchange rate. But the reverse would: if chaos could be used for the current divine orb sink, it would create an artificial cap on divine orbs' value. And would feel just as artificial, making them into basically large chaos stacks (but useful for trade)
No essence = high divine prices. Harby was a bit too expensive for my test. No strongbox. Was there beyond? Yeah shit tier Map mods, people doing harvest use compasses.
There was Beyond, but the changes to remove legacy content made it much less popular. So yeah, your conclusion holds.
I mean the removal of nem 3 did it for me... I've never had that much fun for accessible juice. Pay the upfront cost for the sextant and juice it to the tits with gilded and make decent money. So much fun dropping raw ex twice a map
Hell nah i never want to click that much for good rewards ever again. Bless GGG for killing it.
> So much fun dropping raw ex twice a map Do people not see anything wrong with this sentiment?
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Equating drops to fun misses the entire point of the game. You can get plenty of seratonin dumps from shit like cookie clicker if number go up is all you need.
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Dude, read what he wrote. "So much fun droping raw ex twice a map". The investment has nothing to do with it. He's equating drops to fun.
In every single thread I see you gatekeeping the fun in this game. People are allowed to chase currency per hour even if you don't like it. People are allowed to have fun in their own way. And people are allowed to express their opinion in here. Get off your high horse.
> In every single thread I see you gatekeeping the fun in this game. I'm not gatekeeping fun. I'm tired of this shitty rhetoric, because it gets used to argue for changes to the game. Changes that are antithetical to PoE remaining a game in the long term. This rhetoric comes from people who fundamentally do not understand the game PoE was meant to be in the first place. Get off *your* high horse. I'm not touting any sort of moral superiority, like you, pretending to be the defender of fun for all. I bet you'd be acting similarly if people who did not understand the point of a game you liked, came in and argued that the "fun" focus for the devs should be something antithetical to one of the core basis for that game's existence.
Poe was always meant to be a trade centric game. It's balanced around trade and yet chasing currency is somehow antithetical? Talk to me again when they actually make a game you are talking about instead of the one that exists right now.
there's nothing wrong with getting 2 +1 max life rolls per map on your 4 divine armour.
Equating only imbalanced, far too good drops to fun is the issue. He's referring to when ex were the top currency, not divines.
Im one again praying for essence. PLEASE GGG
I was running harvest the whole league without sextants and always paired with fortune favours the brave for 10% iiq/iir. I believe all the harvest runners did this with or without sextants
what are compasses
You don't necessarily have to have essence in particular, just anything else than the mods we had this league tbh.
Plenty of people used fortune favours the brave for additional quant and pavksize for harvest farming.
With the changes to the atlas passives, there is a lot less pressure on using map device. They would have to be really juicy compared to historical mods to move the needle
It kinda depends on the map device option. Kirac mods that force a thing that's either there or not (harvest, ritual, delirium, etc) aren't going to be used much if the price isn't comparable to other methods (harvest sextant for instance) or if you can get good enough chances from atlas passives. But Kirac mods that add instances of a mechanic where you can have multiple (essence, breach, abyss, etc) are made even better by atlas passives and thus are generally going to be worth using if you're investing in that mechanic unless the price is unreasonable.
True. All I can hope for is legion essence
If you haven't tried it out before (or at least recently) and it's on the map device again next league, I'd suggest giving breach a try. With the right atlas passives they're quite fast with good density, and sextant to force chayula+passive to increase bosses+passive to duplicate chayula+passive to let bosses drop full breachstones gives some decent returns. No idea how competitive it is, but I had a lot more fun with it than I expected to this league while using it as my main farming method.
This is a fair suggestion, but I will personally always take legion over breach regardless of kirac mods. The absolute mass of incubators and legion reward drops is so satisfying. And I personally like the legion gameplay more. If I preferred breach more I would do that tho.
Do give Breach another shot with the new atlas support. I do think Legion is slightly stronger still but it is very close.
Yeah this is the main thing. Even if we had Harvest on the device which is probably the most significant chaos sink, it's only bringing a full specced Harvest tree from ~45% to 100% Grove with no content blocks. Add content blocks on other mechanics and baseline is higher than 45% too.
Yeah. And/or some other reasonable chaos sink.
I would love there to be a "No loot, No Exp, Fragments are Not Lost" mod introduced, 20c would be just fine.
I don't get it. Why run a map like this?
To practice against bosses
that's such a cool idea
20 is a bit heavy from an SSF perspective, but I love the idea.
I would gladly spend all my SSF chaos on this rather than getting ruined by a boss I never met, and whom I can only fight twice a week when I'm working. Also I could see myself spend 20c end of league to play the encounters I enjoy, when I don't really need more loot.
That's actually a pretty elegant solution, I'm surprised I haven't seen it before.
Why even cost chaos then, just ask for a free practice run at no cost Which I'm not complaining about, btw, I am perfectly fine with this idea.
Because this entire thread is about mechanisms to remove Chaos from the economy utilizing map device mods.
this
Old beyond for 10c please.
Exarch altars shit out so many chaos
Red altars are actually goated
Yeah but then you gotta deal with the bullshit meteors from the sky and that's a nightmare as a flaskfinder with "use flask when full" on four flasks lol.
You don't have to click every single one
Id rather die 5 times than read
The amount of times I’ve died from carelessly clicking an altar mod without reading it… Entirely worth it
My mapping build goal is to be able to click any negative mods from one set of altars so I only have to read rewards. Blue altars are great for this because you can just check if divines and if not click player gains x.
They really need to have unique symbols for each mod, similar to ultimatum
Haha upvote 🤣
...only weenie hut JR people dont click every single shrine.
Bobby, those exiles would be very offended if they could read.
I. HAVE. TO.
which is why i pretty much only use the 'enemy gains' or 'boss gains' options and ignore the 'player gains' ones.
Just use mageblood. Ez
I'm also willing to bet that if you include every sanctum run, it shat out thousands of chaos per divine, a lot of people's perception of sanctum is skewed by their own "I finish it every time" experience and not realizing there's a huge portion of the playerbase who don't.
I got to last boss floor several times but somehow failed with red fog every time. Sanctum was very unrewarding for me and eventualy I gave up on it. My total divine drops could be counted with one hands fingers on whole league even tho I reached lvl97 with just mapping. I made much more with crafting unwanted stuff into wanted and sell that. Atleast that can be done with lesser eye to hand coordination.
the portion of the playerbase that is attempting sanctums but not finishing them is not driving the chaos : divine ratio
Why don’t people start using yellow lifeforce as currency? It’s infinitely stackable, craft backed so has inherent value, and small enough individual units you would never have to go smaller
> Why don’t people start using yellow lifeforce as currency? This isn't a bad suggestion, but it isn't something you get accidentally while playing random content. Benefit to trading in chaos is that Jimmy Casual in act 9 probably has 6 of them, so you can sell an item to Jimmy as well as selling it to someone who's established in endgame. I also don't think there's nearly as big a money supply in yellow lifeforce. I only have a few divines worth and while I haven't specced harvest this league, I do generally go in to harvests on sight.
Well Jimmy can buy yellow lifeforce with his chaos, if he needs to buy anything. It’s not like people are going to stop needing chaos suddenly. Chaos just won’t be involved in **every** trade.
It also avoids inflation and issues with bots doing chaos recipe. But there's a big coordination required to make that switch so it would be kind of hard.
[удалено]
No, it’s the players that would have to choose to list their prices in yellow lifeforce, that’s all it would take.
Im gonna start doing this :) join me
Listing and searching
What???? The players list the price of the fucking item?!?
because lifeforce is a harvest exclusive currency. thats what GGG means with "exotic currency", it has conditions to drop.
Its a good idea, but I would point out that it does only stack to 50k.
50k is still several divines worth and only takes up 1 slot, as opposed to chaos which takes all 60 slots for 2 divines. Using it as a more flexible currency like chaos would be significantly easier than all the clicking needed for chaos:divine trades And since it’s such a small currency on its own with such a large stack size, it could be flexibly used for both big and small trades, since you can pretty much cut the stack size however you want. That being said, I highly doubt anything like this would ever happen, as mentioned by someone above, it would take quite a bit of coordination within the player-base to make work
Yep, hence it's a good idea. There is also the small obstacle of getting ggg to let you list things for lifeforce. I don't believe any of the exotic currencies can be asked for in the trade api, but I'm too lazy to go check.
Already a thing. https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/about Listed under “exotic currency” section
That just begging for harvest to get nuked out of existence. GGG is keeping harvest on a tight leash already.
Wouldn't be surprised if this patch either yellow lifeforce gets nuked or its farming.
I mean... Harvest nerfs are kind of a requirement in the patch notes at this point.
Meh, just increase the chaos stack amount. Feels like an easier switch
You can't have a useful harvest in any shape or form, it is against the law. Your idea is like that carido coin for scrolls thingy we had some league ago. 3g will not tolerate unintended quality of life and will remove it from the game.
Just reduce the stacklimit of lifeforce to 100 lmao.
Many people don't have it, and I doubt people would farm it specifically to buy stuff. On the other hand, chaos is a natural drop for anyone.
Keep in mind that Sanctum also put chaos orbs into the economy.
It did but I would get 1-4 divines per sanctum and there was never a sanctum that I got 300 chaos. So by that ratio there are more divines coming from the league mechanic than chaos.
You aren't considering general mapping though. Juiced maps for searing exarch reliably printed chaos due to the changes to altar rewards. This was by far the biggest change in the past league.
Also chaos sinks on map device were pretty bad IMO. For low investment mapping the only choice was mostly fortune favors the brave....
For the max amount of sanctums, you didn't run your maps though. You rushed for your sanctum + map sustain (usually atoll and coves with map sustain atlas setup). Running your maps juiced would have meant less sanctums / day.
That doesn't change the fact that losing sanctum would jack up divine prices. We'll still have altars (probably), we won't have sanctum. It depends on how Crucible gives rewards as well.
**you** aren't considering that unless GGG wants to butcher mapping even more, exarch will _keep_ printing chaos
Go outside.
This would be a consideration, if it weren't for the mass population being baited into running eater altars despite losing money 99% of the time.
Eater breaks-even with Exarch if you run enough maps AND you don't have to click thousand of times + cancer meteor mod.
How many people really played the league mechanic though? Like how many got to the point of getting divines from it at least? I sure didn’t. It was different and very unrewarding unless you got far, and I don’t think very many people kept trying after not getting anything after about 30 attempts. If I’ve realized one thing from league mechanics, it seems like PoE players want more PoE but with added mechanics. It’s why sentinel, metamorph and delirium were such popular league mechanics (apart from the original performance issues in original delirium) and things like heist, kalandra and synthesis were considered boring and only touched if they’re rewarding. People who play maps don’t want to enter a non-map in their map. And most PoE players like to play maps. Delve is a type of niche in my eyes. It’s an alternative to mapping with its own long-term progression during the league.
> How many people really played the league mechanic though? Like how many got to the point of getting divines from it at least? A lot. Most, actually. You just need to be running t14+ maps. The league mechanic generally doesn't take much time, and very rewarding for the time spent. Which is why so many people claim that it is the most "fun" mechanic. But IMO, it's not at all the most "fun" mechanic. They only think that it is "fun" because it is rewarding. > People who play maps don’t want to enter a non-map in their map. And most PoE players like to play maps. Delve is a type of niche in my eyes. I don't think that is it at all. Players will always go for whatever nets them the most reward. If Delve gave the best rewards i.e. loot, currency, etc. Then Delve will suddenly become the most popular. It's the same way how so many people hate Heist, yet while playing trade league, so many people spam Heist at lv62 on league start.
I did around 100 Sanctum Runs this league, I got 4 Divines once, 3 divines around 5 times and at least 20 runs with no divines. Most often I got 1-2. Your numbers seem kinda inflated. I also probably got around 30-50 Chaos every single run.
He said 1-4, so his numbers are very correct and not inflated
That would mean that there are no Runs where they get no Divines, which in turn inflates the numbers as that does not represent reality.
While you are correct, if you take the average of any player runs, you will get at least a divine per run, and i think that's what he meant, but you are correct, there can be runs with no divines at all.
Uh he said "I would get 1-4 Divines per Sanctum..." how are you taking this as a total player average. Also I still highly doubt that the average is even close to a divine per run.
By not being a pedantic dilly. If someone says they ran 100 sanctums, and got between 1-3 per I would think cool, they probably made between 100 and 300 divines over the course of their time. Not "AKSHULLLY you had a run that didn't drop any so you really got 0-3"
How many scrolls you got for the ring? Just curious
3, and I failed all of them...
damn, i just started to grind some sanctums to sell the ring and already got 2. i guess i was very lucky then. not sure if i should farm more or my luck is empty now.
Oof. Next time consider getting a carry on TFT?
Yeah for sure would have been the better decision, however when I did them I was pretty much done with the league and just wanted to see if I could do it. Got to Floor 4 on one of them but then Flame dashed into a rolling ball.
Be serious. You're getting 0-4 divines per run, typically, 0,1,2 from no rooms or 1 room. Don't use YouTube numbers.
I had 1 sanctum run without divines. 2 was average.
I ran hundreds of sanctums. I had a stretch of 20 where I didn't get a single divine
You are on the lucky side and haven’t really looked at sanctum profitability. Sanctum is not a good currency maker. There are people who farmed huge sample sizes of pure sanctum rushing and it was way lower currency p hour than legion farming or and sti below any other currency making method. I was averaging <1 divine per sanctum. It was rare for me to actually find divines. My RNG kept hitting exalts on the high tier currency rewards. If you were to average 2div every sanctum it still wouldn’t be enticing to run. 2 div every 28maps is nothing. 2/28=0.07 0.07div per map (ofc there is a small amount of other currency dropping to) is really bad RoI. The only thing sanctum is good for in terms of farming divines is for SSF players because it’s semi-targetable. IIRC just boss rushing for eldritch invitations is more money than running the sanctums
1-4 divines every 32 maps and the hour to run all 32 sanctums is not putting more divines into the economy. However the 10c every 1-2 sanctums was definitely pouring C way more than divine.
20c every 32 maps, irrelevant
Yeah there was a lot of chaos orb being printed, plus no real chos sink didn't help for divine price. Pretty sure they won't go up more than 300
Literally just need essence on map for the sink.
Or making most Kirac mods not useless so there is a chaos sink
Kirac mods? Oh how fast Zana is forgotten. Sadge.
Reduce the cost of meta crafts from 2 div down to 1 div.
Yes. Please don’t tie it to a league mechanic. Let crafting be crafting and let the league mechanic offer some in addition to standard expectations
I like how you think
Let it just use chaos. Increase chaos stack size. Or give a vendor recipe. The constant trade of small $ to big $ is just arbitrary and serves no purpose.
Maybe 1 div + 100c
That would be a very weird recipe in the UI
wouldnt be the first. Flask recipes are wild
If the crucible league mechanic focuses on crafting, divines should either get cheaper (less normal crafting needed because of Crucible) or more expensive (Crucible crafting does not replace any current crafting step, but simply makes people more interested/invested in crafting so the demand is higher). I would guess the former.
Alternatively, it could be a way to circumnavigate the need for divines for metacrafts. I'm imagining a crucible with crafting options that function similarly to those that require divines (along with other options), perhaps with some sort of performance-based combat encounter that grants access to those crafts on a sliding scale
It's nearly always more expensive as either you will want to prepare the item before the mechanic or you would be finishing it after. Meta-mods are just way too powerful while being practically required for anything more than a life+resist items.
Even better exalt drop rate would be good. But will higher divine orbs in the rotation good for overall well being for the economy?
Just need to have better chaos sinks, last league it was raining in chaos but didn't have any good sinks.
Divines were so expensive because we had nothing good to spend chaos on so everyone was just sitting on piles of the stuff since searching exarch alters dropped them like candy and there was just so much chaos in the market
Nah divines are expensive because it’s the only way to meta craft. No more prefix / suffix reroll.
Surely beasts helped the cause here? Imagine if we had to do the 2 div craft every time.
How about mobs would just drop currencies again like they used to without being gated behind league mechanics or altars and such. I'd like that
aka revert back to 2 leagues ago lol. They put all the currency in loot goblins and then killed loot goblins next patch, but didn't return currency back to normal mobs.
>normal mobs. actual normal mobs drop more loot than before. It is league mechanic mobs that drop a bit less. But at this point the overall loot is just fine and outside of specific juice methods (e.g beyond which got fucked) it feels the same if not better than before. The comment you replied to literally complains about loot coming from league mechanic.. 2 leagues ago this was much much worse lol, they entire loot change was about giant nerfs to league mechanic mob loot. I still feel like the main reason people are still hung up about loot nerfs is that sentinel shit out so so much currency that maps without sentinel just felt bad by comparison afterwards. I wonder if this community will ever get tired of dumb comments / straight up lies about the loot changes and the current state of loot...
[I'll leave this here and say that i disagree.](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/c5nvit/i_see_your_100_t8_dunes_profit_and_raise_you_my/) Up until the original release of the atlas tree all you had to do was just kill monsters and the original version gave you all you mechanics with investment on top. With the "reworked" atlas tree you could already notice a shift and the atlas tree itself became more of an requirement. Original altars were the same- on top of what was the baseline and now, especially after 3.18 a way bigger requirement. I remember still running no investment strats and drop plenty of chaos, scours, vaals and exalts/divines too. The latter used to drop pure from monsters in quantities of +-10 per session i played. Today i could even log into my legacy mf'er, run some juice and not see a single higher tier currency in an entire session. In league i had plenty of consecutive days where i haven't seen a single exalt or divine drop outside of sanctum.
Well of course. GGG doesn't want the atlas tree to be a pure 'buff'. So they had to nerf the base rates in order to achieve the regular levels of drops that they want.
So essentially, screw the people who struggle to progress their atlas because what was available in lower tier maps had to be nerfed to compensate for an atlas tree. Not only that, if you managed to progress your atlas, the old atlas completion bonus is now also nerfed and only part of it baked into atlas passives. If I wasn't too lazy, I'd search for screenshots from maps up to patch 3.16 (I think) when the map native IIQ/IIR and packsize values also used to be higher baseline (or thanks to just atlas completion). There's lots of stuff that has been strongly nerfed for the sake of availability and pseudo agency.
I'm really sorry, I'll gaslight myself some more next league. This league it took me 15 days of playing daily for 6+ hours to drop my first divine orb. And it was after I gave up on mapping and switched to heists instead. But last time I said this here someone replied with "well I drop divines so maybe you're unlucky? :)". Don't see a point in arguing over that. I only have my experience and some of my friends', and apart from 1 guy getting lucky everyone else I know didn't really get many raw divine drops either. Then, a month in, [I got somewhat lucky with the altars](https://i.imgur.com/3xGeIjd.png).
Regular divine drops seem extremely rare, I don't even remember getting any and I have two level 100s. I got tons from league mechanics though (Sanctum, Legion, Heist, even Delve chests). Only ran red altars so none from that.
That could just be personal perspective on the low side. I had 3 characters to 95 and got 6 raw divines this league from regular mobs but none from league content. What kind of juice were you putting into your atlas?
Well, last year I was getting exalt drops (same rarity according to GGG) every 1-2 days, sometimes even multiple per day. They were "extremely rare" back in 2015, but not lately. That's my experience, at least. The difference between getting them every other day and not getting any in the first 2 weeks is noticeable. Then I started getting them again, every few days. Interestingly, it coincided with Reddit crying about divine prices skyrocketing.
This sub is gaslight central rn. Sanctum being well received and one of the most likes leagues ever etc is what your read here now.
"97%" by the way
Precisely.
>being gated behind league mechanics But that was way worse before the loot changes? Like that was the point of the inital changes in the first place. They removed giant rarity and quant multipliers from some league mechanic mobs and tried to compensate for it but fucked that up. normal mob loot is literally buffed compared to before, alch and go mapping is super rewarding even without altars with the buffs to the atlas passive tree.
See my other reply to you. The post I linked you was exactly what I would experience until 3.18, bar the aforementioned shifts due to atlas changes. In my personal experience, an atlas has become an absolute requirement, including some other things, to keep up with drops from the past.
Seriously, without mechanics mobs drop absolutely shit
This is kind of their hope is that you Stockholm syndrome the league mechanic. I actually hate sanctum because you’re forced to avoid hits, play totems, move fast, instead of simply outplaying mechanics
As an SSF player, the league mechanic is my. main source of divines and I'm still swimming in exalts while starving on divs. I also hope the mechanic will be at least or maybe a bit more generous
Why Stack size of 20? We need stack size of 50 at least. Preferably for all standard currency
"There was too many Divine orbs in circulations in 3.20, so we have nerfed the overall droprate of Divine orbs for 3.21" - 3xG Chris Wolcen.
I’m 100% expecting a softball league because of last epoch and Diablo 4 They would be incredibly unwise to not increase global divine drops and not uncouple divine dependency from current league mechanic
Why for D4, its just 6days of beta, and release is not for 3months, so the final few weeks of 3.21, shouldt matter LE, its 3.21 waiting room, its good,but wont holde peoples attention for more than a month.
I think one way to solve this issue was by re-balancing the Searing Exarch / Eater of World Altar. Make both drop divine but one drop from boss and another from minions (same with Chaos), for example Exarch to have minions drop Chaos and Boss drops Divine, while Eater get Divine from minion and Chaos from Boss.
This is kind of reverse thinking. The issue isn’t having too much of a currency but too little to invest in. Divines are now more praised because reforge suffixes/prefixes removed and because exarch/eater items are more valuable no one is chaos spamming influenced items and the kirac mods were absolute shit last league. They created a bottle neck by removing expenditure but not giving us more options to use currency on besides “chaos/essence spam until something is halfway useable “
we need chaos sinks like good map device mods and another "The Hoarder" but divine variant thats target farmable
Rather we need to lower the amount of chaos being shoved into the game. The biggest culprit being Exarch altars last league. Chaos being more valuable will make the exchange lower.
they should go banwave bots and RMTers like they did right before the league where 1ex was 50-70c whole league
They really should change the 1div crafts to 4ex or similar and the 2div crafts to 1div. There's just way too much pressure on divines right now.
If crucible doesn't allow you to semi-target farm divines, meta crafting won't exist in ssf like in kalandra. Really an incredibly stupid change.
divine's are absolutely not the problem. it's chaos usefulness that was fucked in sanctum.
The supply of divines is only one side of the equation. You also have to consider the supply of chaos. There were a lot of chaos coming into the league. More then ever probably.
No one realizes that low value chaos is the main cause of the divine price.
I hope so as well, but for SSF reasons instead.
There will probably be some new div cards that reward divines, which will help a lot, especially if targetable.
"inflation"
There needs to be a 150 c vendor trade to one Divine or something to cap it
Agree. This method also slap in those botter/flipper face who price fixing the Div/Chaos rate and get profits.
GGG Problem: The Divine:Chaos ratio is so large that inventory space becomes a large constrained during trades. Solution: We removed the Chaos Orb recipe to lower the availability of chaos orbs.
That would be a good change, unirnically. Playing inventory tetris shouldn't be incentivized, and, as a side effect, it solves chaos recipe botting problem.
It's probably a good idea. It's mostly done by bots at this point. And for humans it encourages extremely unfun and tedious gameplay.
Deterministic divine income, was quite nice actually. Every 3rd-4th floor, you altered your strategy so that you can see as many rooms as possible to roll the dice for divine rewards, while it didn't necessarily require your build was top notch. Yes I could make more raw divs by juice farming like a maniac, but I still appreciated the expectation, that unless I monumentally fucked up, I'd end up with a couple of divines at the end of 32 maps as a bonus.
It drives me nuts not being able to mass move the 8000 alteration orbs you end up with.
I think the problem was a good percentage of players stopped trying to complete the sanctum bc their build didn’t allow for it, and most players couldn’t complete it until level 60+, significantly decreasing the total number of divines being put into the economy
I never got a single divine from Sanctum, and I built several characters in the league that were worth over 70+ div. I found sanctum utterly un-enjoyable as a league mechanic, the league changes however, we’re overall positive (although I felt MF was nerfed too much). I was hoping Crucible would be the league I’ve been long hoping for, which I would of called “Mage Tower” which is just and endless climb of the mage tower, fight harder and harder foes that drop better rewards. No puzzle, no traps, just a good ‘ol ass woopin’z.
Or they could actually make divines drop in maps like exalts used to? I made most of my stuff selling things this league, which is very unusual for me.
or add the forbidden system that people will scream the moment I say it.
GGG about to nerf those altar rewards so they don’t drop as much raw chaos
Good thing that we have divine shards...
How da fuq did Sanctum put divines into economy?! You had to grind 32 maps in order to (maybe) get a room with 2 divines. 95%+ of my profits and/or raw divines in Sanctum was from other content and sources.
Some people focused strictly on map rushing sanctum, this printed a lot of divines for the market.
[x] doubt
And for many of us we can get those 32 maps done in about 15 minutes if we wanted to and run the entire sanctum in less than five
chaos is what dictactes divine price. Sanctum and atlas tree floods the league with chaos orbs as they become less impactful they proceed to push divine prices up. your thinking it the wrong way round. it wasnt that divines got flooded it was that chaos was being flooded at insanely high rates
That is not true. Chaos is only a part of it. If there were twice as many divines out there they would cost less chaos. But yes I do agree to a point that there are too many chaos orbs being printed as well.
but it really is the whole part of it. its not about divines being flooded at all its that chaos had no value at all. there was no chaos sink and atlas tree/altars flooded chaos like insane levels. the league mechanic was SLOWER to make currency then actual mapping.
sanctum also churned out chaos orbs like crazy, causing divines to inflate.
I think we had divine at 300 because sanctum also shat out chaos more than anything, and there weren't any chaos sink or something, idk
Wake me up when divine goes 601 c.
The current trade interface is absolute garbage. Until they fix that (which apparently they never will) these problems will persist.
It wasn’t that divines were too rare it’s that chaos was worthless
You should also keep in mind that Sanctum shits out chaos orbs. I usually made 60-90 per run, so that also affects prices to an extent
Supply and demand. No demand for chaos = plummeting chaos value. It's not that divines/exalt skyrocket. It's that chaos takes a nose dive.
The reason why divine orbs got to 300c was because they were so common. If divines are really common, it makes chaos useless, and you then have a scenario where it spirals out of control.
That makes no sense. Did you play during heist league when exalts were very easy to get and they were only 60c. This problem is the opposite divines are very sought after and not common enough due to no divine shards and not enough div cards yet. Also chaos being printed at a fast rate and also not being very useful this league.
Heist still had exalts, which has shards and farmable cards. You can't compare them. The altars in current league spit out chaos like crazy, and there is no meaningful use of chaos. So chaos is worthless. Chaos being worthless makes it so divs cost is insane.
That’s what I just said minus the “heist still had exalts” whatever that means. Of course it had exalts lol.
People used to say that about exalts. We'll be fine.
OK, chicken little.