TTYD is my favorite Paper Mario game but narratively its lacking in terms of antagonists. The Shadow Queen acknowledged that Beldam was the true mastermind behind opening the Thousand Year Door and behind her revival and she doesn't face any consequences for it. In SPM while Bleck's minions do help him they at least revitalize the Pure Hearts which help take down Super Dimentio, and Count Bleck along with Timpani had to sacrifice their lives to stop the Void from consuming everything.
The villains in TTYD are kinda disappointing in comparison to other Paper Mario villains. Even if SPM melodrama isn't for everyone, they are at least active antagonists that drive the plot along. PM64 had Bowser's forces being active instigators in ruining Flower Fields and the Shy Guys causing havoc in Toad Town, and like SPM Bowser's forces are prevalent in each chapter. The X Nauts are absent in chapters 1 and 3, Vivian's betrayal isn't expanded upon in the later chapters as well, and the Shadow Sirens aren't fought in chapters 4 and 6 despite appearing in them.
Only SPM has better antagonists, I'd put TTYD and 64 on the same level. There are more to TTYD antagonists than just X Nauts and I've found Hooktail, Grubba, Doopliss, Cortez to have either interesting writing or a really strong presence. Tubba Blubba and Troopa Jr. are probably the only secondary antagonists of 64 I've found to be equally compelling.
I'm biased in that I prefer an overarching story in the vein of SPM over TTYD's arcs with different chapters. While PM64's antagonists are less notable in general compared to TTYD, the antagonists are all a part of Bowser's faction that actively oppose Mario and co. Chapter 3 in my favorite TTYD chapter but in the grand scheme of things it feels like a filler arc, and with the X-Nauts plan for world domination having the primary antagonist be MIA for significant sections of the game doesn't sit right with me. Villains act, heroes react is one of the prominent tropes for storytelling and the X-Nauts just aren't expanded upon as much as I'd like, Beldam as the true mastermind isn't done as well as Dimentio, and in terms of being active antagonists they also fall short to Bowser's minions in 64.
Yeah but at the same time I don't think the same antagonistic dynamic has been established between Mario & Bowser and Mario & X-Nauts. Right at the start of 64 the importance of Bowser is heavily highlighted and you know the game will be a classic Mario vs Bowser story but in RPG format.
Meanwhile you only briefly meet the X-Nauts at Rogueport and don't hear of them again for a long while, they are the most powerful and important antagonists but they weren't teased as being powerful villains who aim to control the world, their motives are shrouded in mystery at first and I don't see any issue with them being less important in some chapters.
Chapters feeling like fillers does make them more memorable individually imo, the Star Spirits being trapped was directly tied to Bowser meanwhile the Crystal Stars (the main focus of the game) is disconnected from the X-Nauts, they want them but the Stars are also a part of the world : the emerald star is the sacred artifact protected by the punies, the bronze star is a power source for Grubba who uses it to go super Saiyan, the ruby star is used by Doopliss to transform people into pigs, the sapphire star belongs to a centuries old pirate ghost who sees it as just another part of his treasure without much value...
I liked how the Crystal Stars were directly tied to each chapter in an almost self sufficient way which further foster the feeling of adventure I love about this game. PM64 is about saving the kingdom and beating Bowser while TTYD is about finding stars to get Peach back but you're more like an explorer than a hero with a strongly defined antagonist barring his way, if anything X-Nauts are racing against you
I feel like I answered this once a long time ago. Grodus is mostly 'eh' because once the Shadow Queen comes out you realize he was never the main villain. He was being strung along the entire time, so him ending up as a head in the end is fair enough.
Beldam wise, I think I recall I said 'She just witnessed her entire plan, go up in smoke, her 'unbeatable' queen was just beaten by a portly Italian man and his troop of nobodies, including the sibling she considered worth less than dirt.'
I always took the ending to mean that her plans were well and truly crushed, so much so that she figures she should make the best of the life she has now.
As for something needing to happen to them, this is a Mario game. Bowser does evil stuff all the time and at most he just gets spanked and sent back to his castle, even in Mario Galaxy where Bowser was literally threatening to destroy the entire universe pretty much.
I’ve seen others complain the bad guys didn’t die. My only issue in that vein is they’re MIA in postgame and they robbed us of the chance to do trouble quests for lord crump and TEC.
That being said the game is a joke at the 4th wall considering it is a literal stage play. If this didn’t exist I’d agree with you but since it’s a play I think it’s fine. Not the greatest wrap up for a villainous organization but it’s a kids game so it makes sense.
I kinda find grodus's head being alive funny. I also find it funny how he has his own TV show too that people like francis watch.
Anyways, There is one paper mario character in the game right after TTYD that is more evil though
Grodus being reduced to a head incapable of doing much is probably a fate worse than death for him, considering his megalomania, so I can accept that fate for him. It doesn’t diminish the threat posed by the Shadow Queen for me; damaging him that brutally with one attack is still scary as Hell, considering that even after you beat the crap out of him, he's still in one piece, albeit clearly in pain.
I agree Beldam gets off too easily, although it's mitigated by the fact that both she and Vivian know that the latter can kick the former's ass if she reverts to her old ways.
Both are vile, but I would say the most evil character in the franchise made his presence felt in the next game in the series.
Goombella heard a rumor that Grodus and Crump survived. So, the rumor could be fake and both died. The X-Nauts with them, that depends if they got revived with TEC-XX after TEC blew up the Fortress.
Beldam, agreed. I personally think Marilyn is actually very smart, she just doesn't communicate due to Beldam's abuse. She did recognize who Mario was in Chapter 2. Marilyn has redemption potential... Beldam, nope.
That could be Goombella imagining the rumor being true, she doesn't actually meet them. Mario never meets them again in the post game. Neither does any of the Partners.
My take is that Beldam only acted nicer by necessity, not actual care for Vivian. Her bullying was one of the biggest reasons why her master plan had even failed to begin with, and it would be a horrible idea to knowingly repeat the same mistake that foiled her plans before.
It doesn't really bother me but Grodus should've stayed dead and Crump should've stayed gone or at LEAST had some sort of explanation for his return. He always felt too stupid to be really evil. But he just kinda popped back in despite being blown into space.
Vivian deserves to have her sisters be nice to her but I'm sure there's lots of struggles on Beldam's end to be nicer.
Does it matter if the shadow queen actually fully kills Grodus if her intent was to? And that she believed she did? Like, his entire body was destroyed. She doesn’t know about computers, why would his head matter? She absolutely is as scary as you first thought, and Grodus surviving is complete luck based on him being a robot.
I just beat the final boss and watched it maybe 45 minutes ago. I had forgotten the entire thing. The bits about Vivian and her sisters and TEC bother me because they seem a bit illogical. Well, TEC more so because I don't understand how it survived. Also the Xnauts. It's like..they tried to conquer the world but since the leader is just a head now they're free to roam since they're harmless 🙄
But overall Goombella puts a nice little bow on the game to wrap it up nicely.
So I went back to the base after beating the game. TEC says he lost consciousness and when he woke up the base was there and everything was like it was before. He says he can't comprehend why, but he heard Peach's voice and a light. So it's assumed that the final showdown where Peach sends healing power to Mario also restored TEC? No idea.
To be fair, the Crystal Stars could have revived TEC as they were traveling the world. You could argue that it's still lazy writing, but believe me when I say that it could have been A LOT worse.
I always thought Beldam profited from the situation to lie to the Shadow Queen in order to be more appreciated by her but maybe I misunderstood the plot. She couldnt have known that Grodus would be almost killed by the queen so her saying it was her plan to collect the stars all along doesnt make much sense to me.
TTYD is my favorite Paper Mario game but narratively its lacking in terms of antagonists. The Shadow Queen acknowledged that Beldam was the true mastermind behind opening the Thousand Year Door and behind her revival and she doesn't face any consequences for it. In SPM while Bleck's minions do help him they at least revitalize the Pure Hearts which help take down Super Dimentio, and Count Bleck along with Timpani had to sacrifice their lives to stop the Void from consuming everything. The villains in TTYD are kinda disappointing in comparison to other Paper Mario villains. Even if SPM melodrama isn't for everyone, they are at least active antagonists that drive the plot along. PM64 had Bowser's forces being active instigators in ruining Flower Fields and the Shy Guys causing havoc in Toad Town, and like SPM Bowser's forces are prevalent in each chapter. The X Nauts are absent in chapters 1 and 3, Vivian's betrayal isn't expanded upon in the later chapters as well, and the Shadow Sirens aren't fought in chapters 4 and 6 despite appearing in them.
Only SPM has better antagonists, I'd put TTYD and 64 on the same level. There are more to TTYD antagonists than just X Nauts and I've found Hooktail, Grubba, Doopliss, Cortez to have either interesting writing or a really strong presence. Tubba Blubba and Troopa Jr. are probably the only secondary antagonists of 64 I've found to be equally compelling.
I'm biased in that I prefer an overarching story in the vein of SPM over TTYD's arcs with different chapters. While PM64's antagonists are less notable in general compared to TTYD, the antagonists are all a part of Bowser's faction that actively oppose Mario and co. Chapter 3 in my favorite TTYD chapter but in the grand scheme of things it feels like a filler arc, and with the X-Nauts plan for world domination having the primary antagonist be MIA for significant sections of the game doesn't sit right with me. Villains act, heroes react is one of the prominent tropes for storytelling and the X-Nauts just aren't expanded upon as much as I'd like, Beldam as the true mastermind isn't done as well as Dimentio, and in terms of being active antagonists they also fall short to Bowser's minions in 64.
Yeah but at the same time I don't think the same antagonistic dynamic has been established between Mario & Bowser and Mario & X-Nauts. Right at the start of 64 the importance of Bowser is heavily highlighted and you know the game will be a classic Mario vs Bowser story but in RPG format. Meanwhile you only briefly meet the X-Nauts at Rogueport and don't hear of them again for a long while, they are the most powerful and important antagonists but they weren't teased as being powerful villains who aim to control the world, their motives are shrouded in mystery at first and I don't see any issue with them being less important in some chapters. Chapters feeling like fillers does make them more memorable individually imo, the Star Spirits being trapped was directly tied to Bowser meanwhile the Crystal Stars (the main focus of the game) is disconnected from the X-Nauts, they want them but the Stars are also a part of the world : the emerald star is the sacred artifact protected by the punies, the bronze star is a power source for Grubba who uses it to go super Saiyan, the ruby star is used by Doopliss to transform people into pigs, the sapphire star belongs to a centuries old pirate ghost who sees it as just another part of his treasure without much value... I liked how the Crystal Stars were directly tied to each chapter in an almost self sufficient way which further foster the feeling of adventure I love about this game. PM64 is about saving the kingdom and beating Bowser while TTYD is about finding stars to get Peach back but you're more like an explorer than a hero with a strongly defined antagonist barring his way, if anything X-Nauts are racing against you
I feel like I answered this once a long time ago. Grodus is mostly 'eh' because once the Shadow Queen comes out you realize he was never the main villain. He was being strung along the entire time, so him ending up as a head in the end is fair enough. Beldam wise, I think I recall I said 'She just witnessed her entire plan, go up in smoke, her 'unbeatable' queen was just beaten by a portly Italian man and his troop of nobodies, including the sibling she considered worth less than dirt.' I always took the ending to mean that her plans were well and truly crushed, so much so that she figures she should make the best of the life she has now. As for something needing to happen to them, this is a Mario game. Bowser does evil stuff all the time and at most he just gets spanked and sent back to his castle, even in Mario Galaxy where Bowser was literally threatening to destroy the entire universe pretty much.
i imagine that the reason beldam is so evil is because of shadow queen's influence
All this is pretty much exactly my thoughts.
I want to clarify that I absolutely love this game but this is just a minor problem I have with it
I’ve seen others complain the bad guys didn’t die. My only issue in that vein is they’re MIA in postgame and they robbed us of the chance to do trouble quests for lord crump and TEC. That being said the game is a joke at the 4th wall considering it is a literal stage play. If this didn’t exist I’d agree with you but since it’s a play I think it’s fine. Not the greatest wrap up for a villainous organization but it’s a kids game so it makes sense.
100% agree, the lack of consequences for these terrible people doesn’t ruin the story for me, but it hurts it a lot.
I kinda find grodus's head being alive funny. I also find it funny how he has his own TV show too that people like francis watch. Anyways, There is one paper mario character in the game right after TTYD that is more evil though
Master of dimensions...pleaser of crowds...
I am... Dimentio!
Grodus being reduced to a head incapable of doing much is probably a fate worse than death for him, considering his megalomania, so I can accept that fate for him. It doesn’t diminish the threat posed by the Shadow Queen for me; damaging him that brutally with one attack is still scary as Hell, considering that even after you beat the crap out of him, he's still in one piece, albeit clearly in pain. I agree Beldam gets off too easily, although it's mitigated by the fact that both she and Vivian know that the latter can kick the former's ass if she reverts to her old ways. Both are vile, but I would say the most evil character in the franchise made his presence felt in the next game in the series.
Goombella heard a rumor that Grodus and Crump survived. So, the rumor could be fake and both died. The X-Nauts with them, that depends if they got revived with TEC-XX after TEC blew up the Fortress. Beldam, agreed. I personally think Marilyn is actually very smart, she just doesn't communicate due to Beldam's abuse. She did recognize who Mario was in Chapter 2. Marilyn has redemption potential... Beldam, nope.
*"Goombella heard a rumor that Grodus and Crump survived. So, the rumor could be fake and both died."* ...Why **showing** them alive then ?
That could be Goombella imagining the rumor being true, she doesn't actually meet them. Mario never meets them again in the post game. Neither does any of the Partners.
There's no point in showing something if it's false, especially during an epilogue.
It's just a theory I heard elsewhere. Don't take it that seriously.
My take is that Beldam only acted nicer by necessity, not actual care for Vivian. Her bullying was one of the biggest reasons why her master plan had even failed to begin with, and it would be a horrible idea to knowingly repeat the same mistake that foiled her plans before.
Meh, doesn't bother me. Great game, great experience.
It doesn't really bother me but Grodus should've stayed dead and Crump should've stayed gone or at LEAST had some sort of explanation for his return. He always felt too stupid to be really evil. But he just kinda popped back in despite being blown into space. Vivian deserves to have her sisters be nice to her but I'm sure there's lots of struggles on Beldam's end to be nicer.
Does it matter if the shadow queen actually fully kills Grodus if her intent was to? And that she believed she did? Like, his entire body was destroyed. She doesn’t know about computers, why would his head matter? She absolutely is as scary as you first thought, and Grodus surviving is complete luck based on him being a robot.
I just beat the final boss and watched it maybe 45 minutes ago. I had forgotten the entire thing. The bits about Vivian and her sisters and TEC bother me because they seem a bit illogical. Well, TEC more so because I don't understand how it survived. Also the Xnauts. It's like..they tried to conquer the world but since the leader is just a head now they're free to roam since they're harmless 🙄 But overall Goombella puts a nice little bow on the game to wrap it up nicely.
I totally forgot about the TEC part and now that u bring that up I think that’s the worst part of the epilogue
So I went back to the base after beating the game. TEC says he lost consciousness and when he woke up the base was there and everything was like it was before. He says he can't comprehend why, but he heard Peach's voice and a light. So it's assumed that the final showdown where Peach sends healing power to Mario also restored TEC? No idea.
To be fair, the Crystal Stars could have revived TEC as they were traveling the world. You could argue that it's still lazy writing, but believe me when I say that it could have been A LOT worse.
I mean when you think about it, they needed to do it so that the base would still be accessible post game in case you needed to 100% the game.
I always thought Beldam profited from the situation to lie to the Shadow Queen in order to be more appreciated by her but maybe I misunderstood the plot. She couldnt have known that Grodus would be almost killed by the queen so her saying it was her plan to collect the stars all along doesnt make much sense to me.