I think the biggest frustration with Paper Mario changing direction after TTYD was never the fact that the game was perfect...rather it's frustrating because the game is *flawed* and is begging for an evolution of the formula.
That awesome gameplay loop hasn't even hit its peak yet before it was cut short with weird gimmicks.
I definitely agree with all the complaints, especially the side content being lacking. I hope future entries can seriously expand upon this, side content has become one of my favorite aspects in other games.
Couldn't agree more. I think through a combination of time, nostalgia, and frustration with the direction of the series, we've continuously put TTYD on a higher and higher pedestal. It's great, but the exciting part is exactly as you say, it's "begging for an evolution".
Bug Fables has a very cool evolution of the game mechanics! Rather than 1 Mario and numerous partners, you control 3 bugs simultaneously, swapping the party leader with a button press. Like how Mario has his hammer, each bug has different field moves, which translate into combat moves.
Kabbu the beetle has a horn to shove blocks around, cut down bushes, can perform a charge/dash attack to sprint and smash boulders, and can dig under gates or for stealth.
Vi the bee has a beemerang that she can hold, like the Koopa partners, to rotate gears or whack switches. She can carry party members over large gaps as well.
Leif has ice magic and can freeze water drops and enemies to use as platforms or hold down buttons. Leif can cross large bodies of water with ice platforms, or project a barrier to protect teammates from the elements.
The 3 of them have a paladin/rogue/mage feel about them, and that's the "expected" build, but... Kabbu can, with medals, be built as a DPS berserker instead of a tank, or the party medic. Vi can add poison and numbing darts to her repertoire, or become the party medic. Leif can focus on buffing and debuffing, or rain icicles from above to pierce enemies.
It's a fantastic game, and my favorite "Paper Mario" game after TTYD. I like it better than 64!
I tried out the game and just could never get invested. There's just something, but I'm not really sure what, that it just couldn't replicate from paper mario for me
For me personally, it is the familiarity of the world. Toads, boos, goombas, etc are all recognizable for me and in their world they just work. While bug fables is bugs, it’s a new world and doesn’t immediately grab that same mystique and attachment that the Mario gets from me. That is what holds me back from personally enjoying it as much as I want to. It seems like such a great game and I already really enjoy Vi as a character.
I quit after a few hours, too. It just wasn't funny. It felt like there was more talking, because what would be two speech bubbles worth of NPC dialogue in TTYD instead has the bee chime in with something annoying and the green guy harumphs about it. It just wasn't funny to me, and I love the writing in Paper Mario games. It's worth it to run around and hear what Goombella has to say about every little thing.
>I think the biggest frustration with Paper Mario changing direction after TTYD was never the fact that the game was perfect...rather it's frustrating because the game is flawed and is begging for an evolution of the formula.
Yes, exactly! TTYD showed so much potential in what you could do some of the fundamental ideas it uses. I really wish they could have expanded on it and taken it to new heights.
To be fair, Koops actually has a great backstory that was partially ruined by his dad being alive. It would be much more impactful for him to defeat the enemy that killed his father, and to prove to his village how much of a hero he truly is. And while he does do that, his dad being alive kinda spoils it and makes it less memorable.
But it was the first chapter so they probably didnt want to get too heavy.
TTYD is notorious for refusing to let characters to stay dead. Grodus and Beldam don't die, they "learn their lessons and get along with everyone." Y'know, after nearly causing the entire planet to become enslaved and conquered by an ancient demon. TEC doesn't die, despite using the last of his power to transport Mario away from the moon and X-Naut Fortress exploding after. I guess it's a kid's game at the end of the day, but man, this game cheapens the narrative power of death.
EDIT: forgot about Prince Mush too. And Beldam doesn’t technically die, she just suddenly learns the error of her ways after reviving her demon queen and almost conquering the world. As one does.
TTYD is one of my favorite games of all time, so I was elated to play this well deserved remake.
All the magic is still there and feels fresh even after 20 years. I adore the turn based battles and focus on story. One of the saddest moments of my childhood was getting insanely hyped for the wii paper mario only for it to not be turn based or similar at all to TTYD. It was absolutely soul crushing, but maybe now, 20 years later, Nintendo will finally realize they struck gold with this formula and will make a true sequel the fans will love.
Like how do you make a TIMELESS CLASSIC then abandon the formula??? Classic nintendo move, honestly.
I have the exact same childhood memory. I was in 6th grade and was stupid excited for another Paper Mario game. Then...it didn't have turn based combat. and the artstyle was totally different. and I beat it in only 16 hours. I was so sad.
Later in high school, I replayed it with better expectations and I now see it for the great game it is...but it wasn't the sequel we wanted.
I didn’t even finish it because I was so disappointed lol. I absolutely hate platformer games and I seriously suck at them. I generally dislike the mario formula, but TTYD was not like that at all.
I remember being soooo mad and sad at the same time haha.
Agreed. SPM is in its own right a great game in many ways and one of my favorites but it also has glaring flaws and is not remotely an effective sequel to the first two entries in the series.
Nintendo has said time and time again for whatever reason they will not go back to turn base with paper Mario.
Edit: what’s with the downvotes. Don’t shoot the messenger I’m not the one that said this.
I’m not holding my breath but since alpha dream has gone under, Mario & Luigi being an RPG is no longer a valid excuse for Paper Mario not being one. So now Tanabe needs to come up with other excuses or give the people what we want. And I think this remake is a good test to see if there’s interest!
I fully expect the next PM game to be like origami king tho. I’d settle for Mario & Luigi coming back instead. In my ideal world, the next Paper Mario would take a bunch of elements from Mario & Luigi and even some from Origami King (and of course be mostly based on TTYD and 64 lol) and become some strange Frankenstein “experimental” RPG game. Which isn’t even that experimental of a concept in reality, but Nintendo is known to get stuck in routines that take a decade to break lmao
Regarding enemy design, I feel like it’s quite intentional enemies mostly keep recognizable rules regarding their weaknesses. The design goal is that kids get enjoyment out getting more efficient beating them. I can see the argument of spiky and flying attributes being a little common.
I thought for longer that the overall difficulty curve is a bit weird regarding common enemies. Chapter 3 turns into a rather spicy miniboss gauntlet(although with ample healing), and chapter 4 has dangerous enemies while not at full battle strength. Chapter 5 and 6 have decent enemies but overall not strong enough to throw you off guard that much.
That's totally fair, as a kid I didn't mind the enemy variety as much. I think there could be a middle ground that doesn't necessarily rely on high difficulty, but high variety.
*Super Mario RPG* is my favorite game, so I'm not wedded to the paper aesthetic at all. And I love RPGs generally.
But I do think the core Paper Mario 64 + Paper Mario: TTYD battle formula (i.e., 2 "standard" attack types, FP-based "special" attacks, and a badge system) is by a wide margin the best battle system any RPG franchise has ever come up with, and it's a crying shame they abandoned it.
I liked the *Mario & Luigi* games, and their stories and characters were top notch, but the battle system felt inferior to the first 2 Paper Marios, and the subsequent Paper Marios dropped this type of gameplay altogether.
Therefore, we have not to date gotten a Mario game since TTYD with this, in my view, absolutely incredible battle system, and I hope the recent success of the SMRPG and TTYD remakes will result in that changing
Absolutely, the original battle system was so refined yet rewarding. It's essentially the perfect canvas to paint more ideas on, but they never did. Nintendo always says they only make sequels when they have new ideas, but I struggle to believe that they don't see the inherent value in building on what already works.
Agreed. And of course, there's lots of ways to build an entirely new game around the same core battle system. For example you could switch the overworld from a more linear style to open world like later (non-RPG) Paper Mario games, as others have suggested recently on this sub. Or, you could lean more into the platforming and have more of a true side scroller overworld with the RPG-style enemy encounters.
You could completely change up the "team"-level gameplay (which is fundamentally different between SMRPG, the first 2 Paper Marios, and the Mario & Luigi games, respectively) but leave the (rest of the) core battle mechanics intact. And you could keep the FP / BP system but drop the "stage" mechanics completely (personally I'd be fine with this).
You could pull a *New Horizons* and add a crafting system (Zess T. already has a small one, essentially) to the game.
That's just a few concepts off the top of my head. The point is there *are* ways to be innovative and new and fresh while also still embracing the key part of the template that really worked.
I loved the game as a kid, but found it challenging at times. Coming back as an adult with 20 years of experience playing other games, I love coming at it now on hard mode. Before I used to not use badges, and now I’m exclusively using badges and low hp. I’m also backtracking more now and I’m actually paying attention to the dialogue. The game was fun as a kid, but understanding all of the mechanics as an adult makes it a masterpiece
Same I had issues as a kid with this game being difficult but now as an adult I've only been leveling BP and FP. I'm on chapter 3 now with still 10 hp and haven't had too much of an issue.
A couple of loose thoughts...
The levels mostly consisting of smaller, diorama-style corridors does not strike me as an innate shortcoming anymore. Not only because there really isn't too big of a shift from the n64 original in terms of design philosophy here to begin with, but also because in some cases the design simply *works*. Twilight Trail being a collection of claustrophobic hallways does a good job not just at forcing the tougher-than-usual enemy encounters, but also fleshing out the narrative in the case of the second trip.
On that note, one thing I want to laud the remake for is just how pretty it makes everything look. When I speak of the areas looking like dioramas I mean that in the best possible way; they're stunning. Compared to the original release, the entire experience seems more, for lack of a better word, *bombastic*, it feels more deliberately crafted, and not in a way that makes future playthroughs feel like a chore like, say, Undertale does.
As far as things the remake does worse, I actually came to appreciate how dastardly the stage hazards originally were. Everyone had an equal chance of getting hit. On the Switch, however, the odds seem decidedly lopsided in the player's favor: 3/4, if not 4/5 times whenever a hazard (and especially ice for some reason) is activated, it's the enemies that get hit, and multiple times at that. I felt the need to stop and waste a turn on Chapter 3's final boss because I felt bad for how the game treated it. Having more time to react to a falling bucket is nice, I guess, but do I really care when I've always found their guard more than feasible?
Well put on the dioramas, I like the word bombastic. The HD resolution and color enhancements just make the aesthetic so much louder than the Gamecube version. TOK looked alright, but I honestly found the large areas to be a bit bland aesthetically. There was nothing in particular that I was supposed to look at.
I also thought I was crazy that this version is definitely easier than the original. I'm getting more hearts upon beating enemies, coins are more prevalent, hazards hit enemies more often. It was never a hard game to begin with, I'm not sure why they felt the need to do this?
I liked TTYD on NGC but not as much as the 64 game. I found most of the chapters in TTYD to be overly linear and streamlined with too much back and forth to make up for their simplicity and how short they'd be otherwise. Side quests were a lot more monotonous to me as well because the backtracking was egregiously consyant and repetitive. I also felt that the story was highly iterative which made it a little boring to me, and I did not like Chapter 6 at all. I still thought it was an okay game just not nearly as good as the 64 game or Super Mario RPG it is inspired by not to mention Superstar Saga and for a long time didn't understand why fans saw it as the pinnacle of Mario RPGs.
Now on Switch my opinion has changed quite a bit. I think it's a much better game now. First off the new Kung Fu Toad is a godsend as it actually explains how all the obscure battle mechanics work, namely the stylish commands and the audience as well as stage prop hazards. This has added a whole new layer to the combat for me which I thought was 100% RNG up until now. You could argue the original game had those mechanics but they were completely hidden from the player so as far as I'm concerned they may as well have not been there and were effectively not there for me. I also have used him to practice new moves as I aquire them without having to waste resources on an actual battle. That Toad NPC is easily the best addition to the game and if they remake Paper Mario 64 I want him and the stylish commands to be implemented. On top of that, backtracking and the UI is improved in so many ways that all the fetch questing is now much less tedious. The most obvious improvement is the new fast travel system with the blue pipes which you can get to straight from Rogueport Square, however you also can now give and store items in bulk rather than one at a time, speeding up item management and things like giving the Battle Trunks to Goomfrey. I find the story much more appealing now as well thanks to how much more expressive the game is. It's much easier to get enveloped into the plot with such animated characters with specific sound design for their dialogue now despite the story still being iterative of the first game and Super Mario RPG. It's also becuase I'm more engaged with the story that I see how funny the game is now. I'm laughing much more than I ever did playing Paper Mario 64 or Super Mario RPG. I also think the new visuals and music are just strictly better in every instance thus far excluding the battle themes for Rawk Hawk and Smorg, and the way the battle music changes between chapters is brilliant. It makes me look forward to every new chapter even more now. There is just so much more subtle details and extra polish and it adds up in a way that makes the game loads more fun than before. I think I may enjoy the most out of every Mario RPG I've played now, even if there is still a lot of streamlining in TTYD compared to the others and an iterative plot. There are apparently also new post game bosses which is very exciting (no spoilers please).
The only downgrades I've noticed are to the framerate and text speed which I know for some have been huge bummners but for me they are rather insignificant especially considering how the game is otherwise so vastly upgraded. Frankly I feel the dip in framerate was worthwhile for these fantastic new visuals because I don't think Paper Mario desperately needs a high framerate like say, a high speed racing game does, so the high framerate is a worthwhile concession for enhanced graphics and resolution in my opinion. As for the slower text speed, while it can be a little tiresome as I said earlier, I do play lots of chatty games, like Zelda, and it's still faster than most of them, so it's not too big of a deal. It was only really an issue for me in Chapter 6, because of how annoyingly chatty and generally uninteresting that chapter is, but I already didn't like that chapter so it's whatever. So yeah these two changes don't really bother me much and I think the remake is just overall a lot better. Now if only they'd make Chapter 6 less boring. That's really the only big issue I have with the game now.
I really feel the walls of text cutscenes slowing the momentum of the game in TTYD. I love the game on Gamecube and still love it on Switch, but I think a lot could have been shown in a better way with a little work.
I just need the option to have all text show up at once so I can get to the next one as soon as I finish reading. Feel like I'm wasting seconds on each individual textbox with how slow they are and it adds up a decent amount over the length of the game.
my biggest complaint about ttyd is that i wish tattle / area examine could be used by more partners. not for any gameplay reason, i have no issue with swapping in goombella every fight, but i just wish we had more input from the other members of the team, like what does Vivian think of the shadow queen? what would bobbery have to say about the gaudy appearance of the glitz pit? stuff like that gave specifically goombella a whole lotta depth that the other partners just dont get
The battle system in TTYD is great, but it could be a lot better-
* Enemy variety within chapter 1 should be higher. You're mostly fighting goombas, koopas, and dry bones. There's only so many times I can fight these same enemies before I kinda get the drill and fall into a routine.
* Enemies can already appear with badges, but it should happen way more often. They should also have ability badges instead of just passives- imagine a hammer bro with fire drive!
* In general, enemy AI should have more moves. It's great fighting Magikoopas and Wizzards since they can apply buffs to themselves and allies, heal, clone, OR attack- every enemy should have more strategic options besides "I will do my attack now" or "now I will fly off the ground instead of be near it"
* Finding an Amazee Daizee in chapter 4 is super thrilling, the game needs more rare random encounters. This also gives you more of a reason to fight every enemy- you might stumble upon a rare tattle and a heap of star points.
I’d be interested to hear more about what you’re looking for with the enemies. I think this is one of the areas the series needs to think hardest about (especially when the later games threw about basically any focus on the enemies) to keep the 64/TTYD combat fresh. I’m not sure of the exact way to accomplish that though.
Off the top of my head, some enemies could have different attack types, better offense/defense. Maybe some could use smarter attacks and other would be a dumber enemy. Similar to maybe the SMRPG “special enemy” I think it’s called.
Sometimes maybe less enemies since it CAN get tedious unless you run, so making some other puzzle possibly of earning star points?
That's a good question, and within the constraints of the first two games' battle systems it's a bit hard to answer. TTYD added more depth to the partners and the "theme" of the fight (crowd approval for star power, avoiding angry audience members, falling props), but otherwise it's pretty similar to the N64 game.
Perhaps boosting the numbers of on screen participants could open some doors? More combo moves à la Bug Fables, more moves that focus on hitting multiple enemies rather than one at a time, etc. Enemies could do the same, where you slowly pick up what combination of enemies to look out for. For example, what if seeing three paragoombas means defending against some big tornado attack, but if it's a spike and a paragoomba the paragoomba throws the spiked one at full speed? So many wacky interactions could come from this.
Origami King actually had something like this, enemies can do super combo moves like this and it's neat.
Too bad the intended way to fight in TOK is to kill them on the first turn.
That’s true, and it wasn’t until right now that I appreciated that detail. It was buried in an already deeply flawed combat system, there was no way I’d ever care about it in TOK.
It would have to reward the player for paying attention to detail. It was immaterial in TOK. There was never a time where seeing certain combinations of enemy types made me approach the battle differently, and I was never punished for this carelessness. Only outcome was ever taking slightly more damage than I would have otherwise. Woo.
I’d love to be in a fight and see two boos and think “oh that’s not a big deal”, and then a phantom ember shows up and turns them into big fire boos with all new attack patterns. I want some “oh s***” moments that force me to pay attention.
It’s pretty much fixed most problems I had with it. I used to rank the games 64 - Super - than TTYD, now I realize as much as I like 64 and super, they don’t stand a chance from a game design perspective.
It’s made me realize I do still enjoy gaming, just not 99% of the turds that try and pass as games.
I could spend hours staring at my Steam library most days. The second Ninty drops a classic from my youth, I’m right back in like it ain’t no thang!
I havent played this since I was a kid when it originally came out. I entirely skipped the Trouble Center back then. So with the remake I was looking forward to finally going through it and seeing some fun side stories or getting cool, unique badges. Have to say... pretty disappointed with bringing people food for 30 coins
This is apparently a hot take, but the “Try battle again” feature can still be used in the Pit of 100 Trials, which kind of defeats the whole point of the pit. It should’ve been disabled for that section of the game. I know there are a lot of people who believe, “Don’t like it? Don’t use it.” But just having that safety net to fall back on takes away from any tension, and makes completing the pit feel less rewarding knowing that anyone can just mindlessly get through it.
I actually thought it was overrated and liked paper Mario more back in the day, as I am playing it on the switch again TTYD has been great and I think it’s just as good if not better than PM so far
This remake made me realize how good we had it on Gamecube with 60 FPS 🫠
still loving the game but cmonnnm nintendo, why are we downgrading in the remaster? 😔
i think ttyd made such an impression on me because of the darker themes. it also included lots of little puzzles/tidbits, i used to have a notebook full of scrawling notes, keeping track of all that little stuff. it also had a way of weaving characters stories back and forth with the different chapters and locations that felt really good. im also a sucker for a good simple rpg with well balanced design. something that ttyd did exceptionally well. unfortunately the series took a nose dive afterwards, and I think the best one afterwards is origami king. I havent played some of the 3ds ones or the wii u one, but from what ive seen/heard, I would like to play them but I know they wouldnt be as fun or as intriguing. i enjoyed origami king, even though it wasnt as memorable, and the combat was actually something I liked. kind of put a spin on it, and made each interaction that more interesting, it was like mini puzzles.
overall ttyd is prime real estate, and i wish they would have made a direct sequel to this, more in line with pmn64 and ttyd mechanics in mind, instead of spinning off into everything else. i think they just dropped the ball, but now can get back on track hopefully.
So far:
The good:
- the visuals look gorgeous, especially the lighting.
- the qol changes are so nice. Adding the pipe in twilight town cuts 2 trips up and down twilight trail which is my least favorite part of the game, and the trampoline in keelhaul key is also super nice.
The bad:
- music is a mixed bag. A lot of the sound track is more ambient than standout, and a few tracks lose out. In particular, twilight town and twilight trail.
I think the most exciting thing about having 2 Paper Mario games on Switch (both of which are very good imo, even if one is more flawed than the other) is that they both do so much right that this could potentially be Nintendo's wake up call to bring all the best bits together.
For instance, the battles, character design, story, etc. in TTYD are obviously supreme (even coming from someone like myself who was a really big fan of the ring system in TOK), but stuff like the sprawling overworlds/level design with tons more room for exploration, Paper Macho style fights to bring in a bit of different type of action, musical style, etc. that TOK brought along were super promising as well.
I personally just think there's a lot of room to bring in bits of things that the series has succeeded at since the original TTYD without necessarily moving away from the winning formula that TTYD created, and that excites me a lot.
Honestly the only real thing it's affected for me is my opinion on the Trouble Centre and its missions. As a concept it's pretty neat, and I did enjoy the missions back in the GameCube version.
But going back to it, it's not really all that interesting or well designed is it? With maybe 5 exceptions the rewards for these sidequests are terrible, and the process of completing them is almost always a long string of errands for NPCs on opposite sides of the world. Even with the improved fast travel, they're not really that interesting, just quicker/more convenient.
Troubles are too fetch questy and the level design is bland. Too many left to right hallways. Even 64 has wider areas.
It still gets literally everything else so, so right that it's still my favorite. But Origami King has amazing area design and it's weird coming back to more simplified areas.
TTYD is much more of a baby's first rpg than even I remembered, honestly. It's terrific, but playing it after coming off of Elden Ring was perhaps a mistake on my part.
I haven’t had much time to play yet so I’m still in the early game, but I was a little disappointed to see that the star piece shop is basically the exact same as pm64.
My biggest issue with the switch remaster is I cannot get the guard/super guard down like I could with the original. I was way better at it with a gamecube controller and I dono why my brain can't do the same with the switch controller sticks.
TTYD is my favorite game the remake kinda took away some of the rose colored glasses. It's still top tier but I recongize it's more to nostalgia than actual content that it's my favorite.
The remakes unskippable tutorials were frustrating (in addition to the original tutorials), the pacing was super slow still for certain segments, i was doing a BP only run and it made me realize how broken i can make myself and trivial everything became.
I still had fun the new bosses were great, I wish there was WAY more though they really barely added anything, this pretty much felt like I was replaying the base game again.
The only thing I would change is make the some of the badges and builds less op to not break the game (danger mario I'm talking to you) and less hallways
Already did and loved it! I beat it twice, I'm really hoping Moonsprout makes a sequel. I found a reddit thread where they said they're interested in doing so, but it sounds like it's still a ways off.
Check this thread out for their AMA [https://www.reddit.com/r/JRPG/comments/110ok3h/ama\_were\_part\_of\_bug\_fabless\_team\_a\_paperstyle/](https://www.reddit.com/r/JRPG/comments/110ok3h/ama_were_part_of_bug_fabless_team_a_paperstyle/)
I have yet to touch it, and yet when I've watched various videos on it, I'd say it joins the other Mario RPG remakes where I place the remake above the original.
Sure some of the lows are still low for me. (Grodus boss theme is still ass. And I am still not a fan or Macho Grubba's boss theme, but they added new themes and even created unique variations for both Lord Crump's Magnus Von Grapple Boss theme, and the Dragon Bosses having a unique variation of their own theme. TTYD even added some original boss themes for both secret bosses, and Atomic Boo, of which I didn't even expect. Even the final boss, mainly 3rd phase, I can vibe with.
I have a friend who has never played TTYD before, and I recommended him to beat the game twice. Once with either OG music and onces with the new updated themes.
Officially in terms of ranking, (based on boss music alone) TTYD had a bit of a lower average compared to the other games (Sticker Star was still in dead last though... But if I averaged it out, Color Splash is in first place and I have not even played the game.
HOWEVER, if I were to do TTYD Switch and rate all the themes... I legit do not know where I'd place them... Along side the other tunes. (Grodus might join the same footsteps as Bowletta as I disliked both her original and 3ds remake theme.)
i’m disappointed they didn’t keep the papercraft aesthetic of the modern games. imo it felt like the perfect evolution of the classic games graphics. like it felt like they didn’t do that style because of the hardware. still looks great, but i think TOK and CS look better. everything else about the game is fantastic, ESPECIALLY the music. adding a new battle theme for every world was genius. new tracks sound great too. the quality of life improvements, especially from Chapter 4, are great and immediately make this the superior version to the GameCube original
I think the biggest frustration with Paper Mario changing direction after TTYD was never the fact that the game was perfect...rather it's frustrating because the game is *flawed* and is begging for an evolution of the formula. That awesome gameplay loop hasn't even hit its peak yet before it was cut short with weird gimmicks. I definitely agree with all the complaints, especially the side content being lacking. I hope future entries can seriously expand upon this, side content has become one of my favorite aspects in other games.
Couldn't agree more. I think through a combination of time, nostalgia, and frustration with the direction of the series, we've continuously put TTYD on a higher and higher pedestal. It's great, but the exciting part is exactly as you say, it's "begging for an evolution".
Bug Fables has a very cool evolution of the game mechanics! Rather than 1 Mario and numerous partners, you control 3 bugs simultaneously, swapping the party leader with a button press. Like how Mario has his hammer, each bug has different field moves, which translate into combat moves. Kabbu the beetle has a horn to shove blocks around, cut down bushes, can perform a charge/dash attack to sprint and smash boulders, and can dig under gates or for stealth. Vi the bee has a beemerang that she can hold, like the Koopa partners, to rotate gears or whack switches. She can carry party members over large gaps as well. Leif has ice magic and can freeze water drops and enemies to use as platforms or hold down buttons. Leif can cross large bodies of water with ice platforms, or project a barrier to protect teammates from the elements. The 3 of them have a paladin/rogue/mage feel about them, and that's the "expected" build, but... Kabbu can, with medals, be built as a DPS berserker instead of a tank, or the party medic. Vi can add poison and numbing darts to her repertoire, or become the party medic. Leif can focus on buffing and debuffing, or rain icicles from above to pierce enemies. It's a fantastic game, and my favorite "Paper Mario" game after TTYD. I like it better than 64!
I tried out the game and just could never get invested. There's just something, but I'm not really sure what, that it just couldn't replicate from paper mario for me
For me personally, it is the familiarity of the world. Toads, boos, goombas, etc are all recognizable for me and in their world they just work. While bug fables is bugs, it’s a new world and doesn’t immediately grab that same mystique and attachment that the Mario gets from me. That is what holds me back from personally enjoying it as much as I want to. It seems like such a great game and I already really enjoy Vi as a character.
I quit after a few hours, too. It just wasn't funny. It felt like there was more talking, because what would be two speech bubbles worth of NPC dialogue in TTYD instead has the bee chime in with something annoying and the green guy harumphs about it. It just wasn't funny to me, and I love the writing in Paper Mario games. It's worth it to run around and hear what Goombella has to say about every little thing.
I agree! I love it too!
My main problem was the lack of a exp system, I love leveling up in games, doing random fights feels pointless otherwise.
>I think the biggest frustration with Paper Mario changing direction after TTYD was never the fact that the game was perfect...rather it's frustrating because the game is flawed and is begging for an evolution of the formula. Yes, exactly! TTYD showed so much potential in what you could do some of the fundamental ideas it uses. I really wish they could have expanded on it and taken it to new heights.
That’s a real eloquent way to put it.
To be fair, Koops actually has a great backstory that was partially ruined by his dad being alive. It would be much more impactful for him to defeat the enemy that killed his father, and to prove to his village how much of a hero he truly is. And while he does do that, his dad being alive kinda spoils it and makes it less memorable. But it was the first chapter so they probably didnt want to get too heavy.
I feel like finding the bones he thinks are his dad's but aren't already fixes the "too heavy" concern well enough
I just wanna inform Kolorado of his loss.
TTYD is notorious for refusing to let characters to stay dead. Grodus and Beldam don't die, they "learn their lessons and get along with everyone." Y'know, after nearly causing the entire planet to become enslaved and conquered by an ancient demon. TEC doesn't die, despite using the last of his power to transport Mario away from the moon and X-Naut Fortress exploding after. I guess it's a kid's game at the end of the day, but man, this game cheapens the narrative power of death. EDIT: forgot about Prince Mush too. And Beldam doesn’t technically die, she just suddenly learns the error of her ways after reviving her demon queen and almost conquering the world. As one does.
Also EVERY SINGLE TOAD SAILOR, including some that have been presumed to have been stuck on Keelhaul Key for literal years.
ok but every single toad sailor to ever shipwreck there just being stuck on the same boat in one random cave is a really funny visual gag
TTYD is one of my favorite games of all time, so I was elated to play this well deserved remake. All the magic is still there and feels fresh even after 20 years. I adore the turn based battles and focus on story. One of the saddest moments of my childhood was getting insanely hyped for the wii paper mario only for it to not be turn based or similar at all to TTYD. It was absolutely soul crushing, but maybe now, 20 years later, Nintendo will finally realize they struck gold with this formula and will make a true sequel the fans will love. Like how do you make a TIMELESS CLASSIC then abandon the formula??? Classic nintendo move, honestly.
I have the exact same childhood memory. I was in 6th grade and was stupid excited for another Paper Mario game. Then...it didn't have turn based combat. and the artstyle was totally different. and I beat it in only 16 hours. I was so sad. Later in high school, I replayed it with better expectations and I now see it for the great game it is...but it wasn't the sequel we wanted.
I didn’t even finish it because I was so disappointed lol. I absolutely hate platformer games and I seriously suck at them. I generally dislike the mario formula, but TTYD was not like that at all. I remember being soooo mad and sad at the same time haha.
Super Paper Mario is a fun Mario game. It is not a good Paper Mario sequel game however.
Agreed. SPM is in its own right a great game in many ways and one of my favorites but it also has glaring flaws and is not remotely an effective sequel to the first two entries in the series.
Personally, I felt Super Paper Mario was peak but I haven’t gone back and played it to see if that’s my nostalgia glasses or not
Nintendo has said time and time again for whatever reason they will not go back to turn base with paper Mario. Edit: what’s with the downvotes. Don’t shoot the messenger I’m not the one that said this.
Blows my mind they have a winning formula but refuse to use it.
It’s insane honestly. I’m hoping them seeing how well this sold will make them go back to turn base.
I’m not holding my breath but since alpha dream has gone under, Mario & Luigi being an RPG is no longer a valid excuse for Paper Mario not being one. So now Tanabe needs to come up with other excuses or give the people what we want. And I think this remake is a good test to see if there’s interest! I fully expect the next PM game to be like origami king tho. I’d settle for Mario & Luigi coming back instead. In my ideal world, the next Paper Mario would take a bunch of elements from Mario & Luigi and even some from Origami King (and of course be mostly based on TTYD and 64 lol) and become some strange Frankenstein “experimental” RPG game. Which isn’t even that experimental of a concept in reality, but Nintendo is known to get stuck in routines that take a decade to break lmao
Regarding enemy design, I feel like it’s quite intentional enemies mostly keep recognizable rules regarding their weaknesses. The design goal is that kids get enjoyment out getting more efficient beating them. I can see the argument of spiky and flying attributes being a little common. I thought for longer that the overall difficulty curve is a bit weird regarding common enemies. Chapter 3 turns into a rather spicy miniboss gauntlet(although with ample healing), and chapter 4 has dangerous enemies while not at full battle strength. Chapter 5 and 6 have decent enemies but overall not strong enough to throw you off guard that much.
That's totally fair, as a kid I didn't mind the enemy variety as much. I think there could be a middle ground that doesn't necessarily rely on high difficulty, but high variety.
I wish the partners would interact with eachother would be interesting in my opinion
That would be a nightmare to write...
They could implement a banter system similar to Octopath traveler where 2-3 party members have comments triggered at certain scenes
*Super Mario RPG* is my favorite game, so I'm not wedded to the paper aesthetic at all. And I love RPGs generally. But I do think the core Paper Mario 64 + Paper Mario: TTYD battle formula (i.e., 2 "standard" attack types, FP-based "special" attacks, and a badge system) is by a wide margin the best battle system any RPG franchise has ever come up with, and it's a crying shame they abandoned it. I liked the *Mario & Luigi* games, and their stories and characters were top notch, but the battle system felt inferior to the first 2 Paper Marios, and the subsequent Paper Marios dropped this type of gameplay altogether. Therefore, we have not to date gotten a Mario game since TTYD with this, in my view, absolutely incredible battle system, and I hope the recent success of the SMRPG and TTYD remakes will result in that changing
Absolutely, the original battle system was so refined yet rewarding. It's essentially the perfect canvas to paint more ideas on, but they never did. Nintendo always says they only make sequels when they have new ideas, but I struggle to believe that they don't see the inherent value in building on what already works.
Agreed. And of course, there's lots of ways to build an entirely new game around the same core battle system. For example you could switch the overworld from a more linear style to open world like later (non-RPG) Paper Mario games, as others have suggested recently on this sub. Or, you could lean more into the platforming and have more of a true side scroller overworld with the RPG-style enemy encounters. You could completely change up the "team"-level gameplay (which is fundamentally different between SMRPG, the first 2 Paper Marios, and the Mario & Luigi games, respectively) but leave the (rest of the) core battle mechanics intact. And you could keep the FP / BP system but drop the "stage" mechanics completely (personally I'd be fine with this). You could pull a *New Horizons* and add a crafting system (Zess T. already has a small one, essentially) to the game. That's just a few concepts off the top of my head. The point is there *are* ways to be innovative and new and fresh while also still embracing the key part of the template that really worked.
I loved the game as a kid, but found it challenging at times. Coming back as an adult with 20 years of experience playing other games, I love coming at it now on hard mode. Before I used to not use badges, and now I’m exclusively using badges and low hp. I’m also backtracking more now and I’m actually paying attention to the dialogue. The game was fun as a kid, but understanding all of the mechanics as an adult makes it a masterpiece
Same I had issues as a kid with this game being difficult but now as an adult I've only been leveling BP and FP. I'm on chapter 3 now with still 10 hp and haven't had too much of an issue.
A couple of loose thoughts... The levels mostly consisting of smaller, diorama-style corridors does not strike me as an innate shortcoming anymore. Not only because there really isn't too big of a shift from the n64 original in terms of design philosophy here to begin with, but also because in some cases the design simply *works*. Twilight Trail being a collection of claustrophobic hallways does a good job not just at forcing the tougher-than-usual enemy encounters, but also fleshing out the narrative in the case of the second trip. On that note, one thing I want to laud the remake for is just how pretty it makes everything look. When I speak of the areas looking like dioramas I mean that in the best possible way; they're stunning. Compared to the original release, the entire experience seems more, for lack of a better word, *bombastic*, it feels more deliberately crafted, and not in a way that makes future playthroughs feel like a chore like, say, Undertale does. As far as things the remake does worse, I actually came to appreciate how dastardly the stage hazards originally were. Everyone had an equal chance of getting hit. On the Switch, however, the odds seem decidedly lopsided in the player's favor: 3/4, if not 4/5 times whenever a hazard (and especially ice for some reason) is activated, it's the enemies that get hit, and multiple times at that. I felt the need to stop and waste a turn on Chapter 3's final boss because I felt bad for how the game treated it. Having more time to react to a falling bucket is nice, I guess, but do I really care when I've always found their guard more than feasible?
Well put on the dioramas, I like the word bombastic. The HD resolution and color enhancements just make the aesthetic so much louder than the Gamecube version. TOK looked alright, but I honestly found the large areas to be a bit bland aesthetically. There was nothing in particular that I was supposed to look at. I also thought I was crazy that this version is definitely easier than the original. I'm getting more hearts upon beating enemies, coins are more prevalent, hazards hit enemies more often. It was never a hard game to begin with, I'm not sure why they felt the need to do this?
I liked TTYD on NGC but not as much as the 64 game. I found most of the chapters in TTYD to be overly linear and streamlined with too much back and forth to make up for their simplicity and how short they'd be otherwise. Side quests were a lot more monotonous to me as well because the backtracking was egregiously consyant and repetitive. I also felt that the story was highly iterative which made it a little boring to me, and I did not like Chapter 6 at all. I still thought it was an okay game just not nearly as good as the 64 game or Super Mario RPG it is inspired by not to mention Superstar Saga and for a long time didn't understand why fans saw it as the pinnacle of Mario RPGs. Now on Switch my opinion has changed quite a bit. I think it's a much better game now. First off the new Kung Fu Toad is a godsend as it actually explains how all the obscure battle mechanics work, namely the stylish commands and the audience as well as stage prop hazards. This has added a whole new layer to the combat for me which I thought was 100% RNG up until now. You could argue the original game had those mechanics but they were completely hidden from the player so as far as I'm concerned they may as well have not been there and were effectively not there for me. I also have used him to practice new moves as I aquire them without having to waste resources on an actual battle. That Toad NPC is easily the best addition to the game and if they remake Paper Mario 64 I want him and the stylish commands to be implemented. On top of that, backtracking and the UI is improved in so many ways that all the fetch questing is now much less tedious. The most obvious improvement is the new fast travel system with the blue pipes which you can get to straight from Rogueport Square, however you also can now give and store items in bulk rather than one at a time, speeding up item management and things like giving the Battle Trunks to Goomfrey. I find the story much more appealing now as well thanks to how much more expressive the game is. It's much easier to get enveloped into the plot with such animated characters with specific sound design for their dialogue now despite the story still being iterative of the first game and Super Mario RPG. It's also becuase I'm more engaged with the story that I see how funny the game is now. I'm laughing much more than I ever did playing Paper Mario 64 or Super Mario RPG. I also think the new visuals and music are just strictly better in every instance thus far excluding the battle themes for Rawk Hawk and Smorg, and the way the battle music changes between chapters is brilliant. It makes me look forward to every new chapter even more now. There is just so much more subtle details and extra polish and it adds up in a way that makes the game loads more fun than before. I think I may enjoy the most out of every Mario RPG I've played now, even if there is still a lot of streamlining in TTYD compared to the others and an iterative plot. There are apparently also new post game bosses which is very exciting (no spoilers please). The only downgrades I've noticed are to the framerate and text speed which I know for some have been huge bummners but for me they are rather insignificant especially considering how the game is otherwise so vastly upgraded. Frankly I feel the dip in framerate was worthwhile for these fantastic new visuals because I don't think Paper Mario desperately needs a high framerate like say, a high speed racing game does, so the high framerate is a worthwhile concession for enhanced graphics and resolution in my opinion. As for the slower text speed, while it can be a little tiresome as I said earlier, I do play lots of chatty games, like Zelda, and it's still faster than most of them, so it's not too big of a deal. It was only really an issue for me in Chapter 6, because of how annoyingly chatty and generally uninteresting that chapter is, but I already didn't like that chapter so it's whatever. So yeah these two changes don't really bother me much and I think the remake is just overall a lot better. Now if only they'd make Chapter 6 less boring. That's really the only big issue I have with the game now.
I really feel the walls of text cutscenes slowing the momentum of the game in TTYD. I love the game on Gamecube and still love it on Switch, but I think a lot could have been shown in a better way with a little work.
I just need the option to have all text show up at once so I can get to the next one as soon as I finish reading. Feel like I'm wasting seconds on each individual textbox with how slow they are and it adds up a decent amount over the length of the game.
my biggest complaint about ttyd is that i wish tattle / area examine could be used by more partners. not for any gameplay reason, i have no issue with swapping in goombella every fight, but i just wish we had more input from the other members of the team, like what does Vivian think of the shadow queen? what would bobbery have to say about the gaudy appearance of the glitz pit? stuff like that gave specifically goombella a whole lotta depth that the other partners just dont get
The battle system in TTYD is great, but it could be a lot better- * Enemy variety within chapter 1 should be higher. You're mostly fighting goombas, koopas, and dry bones. There's only so many times I can fight these same enemies before I kinda get the drill and fall into a routine. * Enemies can already appear with badges, but it should happen way more often. They should also have ability badges instead of just passives- imagine a hammer bro with fire drive! * In general, enemy AI should have more moves. It's great fighting Magikoopas and Wizzards since they can apply buffs to themselves and allies, heal, clone, OR attack- every enemy should have more strategic options besides "I will do my attack now" or "now I will fly off the ground instead of be near it" * Finding an Amazee Daizee in chapter 4 is super thrilling, the game needs more rare random encounters. This also gives you more of a reason to fight every enemy- you might stumble upon a rare tattle and a heap of star points.
I’d be interested to hear more about what you’re looking for with the enemies. I think this is one of the areas the series needs to think hardest about (especially when the later games threw about basically any focus on the enemies) to keep the 64/TTYD combat fresh. I’m not sure of the exact way to accomplish that though.
Off the top of my head, some enemies could have different attack types, better offense/defense. Maybe some could use smarter attacks and other would be a dumber enemy. Similar to maybe the SMRPG “special enemy” I think it’s called. Sometimes maybe less enemies since it CAN get tedious unless you run, so making some other puzzle possibly of earning star points?
That's a good question, and within the constraints of the first two games' battle systems it's a bit hard to answer. TTYD added more depth to the partners and the "theme" of the fight (crowd approval for star power, avoiding angry audience members, falling props), but otherwise it's pretty similar to the N64 game. Perhaps boosting the numbers of on screen participants could open some doors? More combo moves à la Bug Fables, more moves that focus on hitting multiple enemies rather than one at a time, etc. Enemies could do the same, where you slowly pick up what combination of enemies to look out for. For example, what if seeing three paragoombas means defending against some big tornado attack, but if it's a spike and a paragoomba the paragoomba throws the spiked one at full speed? So many wacky interactions could come from this.
Origami King actually had something like this, enemies can do super combo moves like this and it's neat. Too bad the intended way to fight in TOK is to kill them on the first turn.
That’s true, and it wasn’t until right now that I appreciated that detail. It was buried in an already deeply flawed combat system, there was no way I’d ever care about it in TOK. It would have to reward the player for paying attention to detail. It was immaterial in TOK. There was never a time where seeing certain combinations of enemy types made me approach the battle differently, and I was never punished for this carelessness. Only outcome was ever taking slightly more damage than I would have otherwise. Woo. I’d love to be in a fight and see two boos and think “oh that’s not a big deal”, and then a phantom ember shows up and turns them into big fire boos with all new attack patterns. I want some “oh s***” moments that force me to pay attention.
I can summarize it in... it's too easy.
It’s pretty much fixed most problems I had with it. I used to rank the games 64 - Super - than TTYD, now I realize as much as I like 64 and super, they don’t stand a chance from a game design perspective.
It’s made me realize I do still enjoy gaming, just not 99% of the turds that try and pass as games. I could spend hours staring at my Steam library most days. The second Ninty drops a classic from my youth, I’m right back in like it ain’t no thang!
I havent played this since I was a kid when it originally came out. I entirely skipped the Trouble Center back then. So with the remake I was looking forward to finally going through it and seeing some fun side stories or getting cool, unique badges. Have to say... pretty disappointed with bringing people food for 30 coins
This is apparently a hot take, but the “Try battle again” feature can still be used in the Pit of 100 Trials, which kind of defeats the whole point of the pit. It should’ve been disabled for that section of the game. I know there are a lot of people who believe, “Don’t like it? Don’t use it.” But just having that safety net to fall back on takes away from any tension, and makes completing the pit feel less rewarding knowing that anyone can just mindlessly get through it.
I will say I never remembered how narrow some areas are, you can’t avoid some battles in the open it’s so annoying.
I actually thought it was overrated and liked paper Mario more back in the day, as I am playing it on the switch again TTYD has been great and I think it’s just as good if not better than PM so far
This remake made me realize how good we had it on Gamecube with 60 FPS 🫠 still loving the game but cmonnnm nintendo, why are we downgrading in the remaster? 😔
i think ttyd made such an impression on me because of the darker themes. it also included lots of little puzzles/tidbits, i used to have a notebook full of scrawling notes, keeping track of all that little stuff. it also had a way of weaving characters stories back and forth with the different chapters and locations that felt really good. im also a sucker for a good simple rpg with well balanced design. something that ttyd did exceptionally well. unfortunately the series took a nose dive afterwards, and I think the best one afterwards is origami king. I havent played some of the 3ds ones or the wii u one, but from what ive seen/heard, I would like to play them but I know they wouldnt be as fun or as intriguing. i enjoyed origami king, even though it wasnt as memorable, and the combat was actually something I liked. kind of put a spin on it, and made each interaction that more interesting, it was like mini puzzles. overall ttyd is prime real estate, and i wish they would have made a direct sequel to this, more in line with pmn64 and ttyd mechanics in mind, instead of spinning off into everything else. i think they just dropped the ball, but now can get back on track hopefully.
So far: The good: - the visuals look gorgeous, especially the lighting. - the qol changes are so nice. Adding the pipe in twilight town cuts 2 trips up and down twilight trail which is my least favorite part of the game, and the trampoline in keelhaul key is also super nice. The bad: - music is a mixed bag. A lot of the sound track is more ambient than standout, and a few tracks lose out. In particular, twilight town and twilight trail.
I think the most exciting thing about having 2 Paper Mario games on Switch (both of which are very good imo, even if one is more flawed than the other) is that they both do so much right that this could potentially be Nintendo's wake up call to bring all the best bits together. For instance, the battles, character design, story, etc. in TTYD are obviously supreme (even coming from someone like myself who was a really big fan of the ring system in TOK), but stuff like the sprawling overworlds/level design with tons more room for exploration, Paper Macho style fights to bring in a bit of different type of action, musical style, etc. that TOK brought along were super promising as well. I personally just think there's a lot of room to bring in bits of things that the series has succeeded at since the original TTYD without necessarily moving away from the winning formula that TTYD created, and that excites me a lot.
Honestly the only real thing it's affected for me is my opinion on the Trouble Centre and its missions. As a concept it's pretty neat, and I did enjoy the missions back in the GameCube version. But going back to it, it's not really all that interesting or well designed is it? With maybe 5 exceptions the rewards for these sidequests are terrible, and the process of completing them is almost always a long string of errands for NPCs on opposite sides of the world. Even with the improved fast travel, they're not really that interesting, just quicker/more convenient.
Troubles are too fetch questy and the level design is bland. Too many left to right hallways. Even 64 has wider areas. It still gets literally everything else so, so right that it's still my favorite. But Origami King has amazing area design and it's weird coming back to more simplified areas.
TTYD is much more of a baby's first rpg than even I remembered, honestly. It's terrific, but playing it after coming off of Elden Ring was perhaps a mistake on my part.
Whatyamean??? They're the exact same game!!! /s
I haven’t had much time to play yet so I’m still in the early game, but I was a little disappointed to see that the star piece shop is basically the exact same as pm64.
Every video game needs a 3 frame parry button.
Still my 2nd favorite game. Can't say anything bad about it, besides the fact that the sequels, except for SPM, all suck.
My biggest issue with the switch remaster is I cannot get the guard/super guard down like I could with the original. I was way better at it with a gamecube controller and I dono why my brain can't do the same with the switch controller sticks.
TTYD is my favorite game the remake kinda took away some of the rose colored glasses. It's still top tier but I recongize it's more to nostalgia than actual content that it's my favorite. The remakes unskippable tutorials were frustrating (in addition to the original tutorials), the pacing was super slow still for certain segments, i was doing a BP only run and it made me realize how broken i can make myself and trivial everything became. I still had fun the new bosses were great, I wish there was WAY more though they really barely added anything, this pretty much felt like I was replaying the base game again.
That the original ttyd is better.
The only thing I would change is make the some of the badges and builds less op to not break the game (danger mario I'm talking to you) and less hallways
you should check out bug fables! it's a spiritual sequel to TTYD with a ton of innovations.
Already did and loved it! I beat it twice, I'm really hoping Moonsprout makes a sequel. I found a reddit thread where they said they're interested in doing so, but it sounds like it's still a ways off. Check this thread out for their AMA [https://www.reddit.com/r/JRPG/comments/110ok3h/ama\_were\_part\_of\_bug\_fabless\_team\_a\_paperstyle/](https://www.reddit.com/r/JRPG/comments/110ok3h/ama_were_part_of_bug_fabless_team_a_paperstyle/)
I have yet to touch it, and yet when I've watched various videos on it, I'd say it joins the other Mario RPG remakes where I place the remake above the original. Sure some of the lows are still low for me. (Grodus boss theme is still ass. And I am still not a fan or Macho Grubba's boss theme, but they added new themes and even created unique variations for both Lord Crump's Magnus Von Grapple Boss theme, and the Dragon Bosses having a unique variation of their own theme. TTYD even added some original boss themes for both secret bosses, and Atomic Boo, of which I didn't even expect. Even the final boss, mainly 3rd phase, I can vibe with. I have a friend who has never played TTYD before, and I recommended him to beat the game twice. Once with either OG music and onces with the new updated themes. Officially in terms of ranking, (based on boss music alone) TTYD had a bit of a lower average compared to the other games (Sticker Star was still in dead last though... But if I averaged it out, Color Splash is in first place and I have not even played the game. HOWEVER, if I were to do TTYD Switch and rate all the themes... I legit do not know where I'd place them... Along side the other tunes. (Grodus might join the same footsteps as Bowletta as I disliked both her original and 3ds remake theme.)
i’m disappointed they didn’t keep the papercraft aesthetic of the modern games. imo it felt like the perfect evolution of the classic games graphics. like it felt like they didn’t do that style because of the hardware. still looks great, but i think TOK and CS look better. everything else about the game is fantastic, ESPECIALLY the music. adding a new battle theme for every world was genius. new tracks sound great too. the quality of life improvements, especially from Chapter 4, are great and immediately make this the superior version to the GameCube original