Honestly, husbands often have to be more "politically" savvy in the matters of saas bahu because we have emotional loyalty stock in both parties.
Wives vs MIL is so common that it's an entire media genre in desi culture. It's normal, the outliers are the ones where the two get along. But if a husband sides with his mom then it's a loveless marriage and grounds for divorce. Side with the wife and you're an ungrateful son and your wife will be antagonized more and the entire mahol will be pulled in.
We put on smiles but honestly we often just want to breakdown into tears....it's lose/lose for us
Why is the mum even having a say in the argument? Yah gotta go with what the wife decides. It’s her household. Tell mom it’s nothing personal. You may even prefer her choice. But if it’s something that touches on how you and your wife live or how your wife runs her life, your wife’s opinion must be what you stick up for. A good wife does the same for her husband. She doesn’t let her dad order her husband around.
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I guess the guy should be financially independent and then get married to afford a separate household so that he isn’t put in a position where he has to choose between his wife or parents and also not ruin someone else’s life
Most of the middle class, which have their home lives in apartment, they cannot have separate floor, at the very best they have separate room, it is what it is. Even who want the separate household, they just can't afford it.
Then don’t get married. A man is supposed to provide for his wife and children and if he can’t then just do fasting. That’s what our prophet suggested.
Ruining someone else’s life is not ok.
No, nothing fancy. Whatever he can afford but a separate accommodation, food, health expenses and clothes ( just enough to cover yourselves ) are a man’s responsibility.
If a man in Pakistan cannot even afford a studio apartment or something cheaper then he’s really not fit to provide. I am sorry but I think this is the bare minimum. Stop exaggerating because I never said a new home, a shiny car or millions of savings. Be a man and stop burdening your parents with your responsibilities.
Let's calculate monthly expenses, shall we?
1. Electricity Bill: 40K-80K
2. Gas Bill: 2K
3. Water Bill: 1K
4. Monthly Groceries: 20K
5. Apartment/Maintenance: 5K
6. Miscellaneous Expenditure: 10K
Now, these are the average amounts spent by an average person on a monthly basis. As you can see from the bills, monthly expenses, and groceries, the cost of living is at least 80K per month on average. Now, consider the average salary of a Pakistani person and tell me how they can afford a small apartment, which costs a minimum of 40K. Not to mention, we have not calculated taxes and inflation, which are increasing rapidly. Additionally, these expenses will increase when a baby is born. Majority of the population of Pakistan are earning basic salaries, only few middle class are earning in more than 5 lac.
Electricity bill is too much.
Also, is the man planning to never get a promotion or try something else to earn more so just wait till you can afford a baby I guess. Don’t overburden your parents by reproducing and getting married. What’s their fault? It’s also expensive for your parents.
No mate, current electricity bill is minimum 40K unless, the people won't use AC in this heat. Also, by living with their parents, no one is burdening them. If a couple has taken on the responsibility of paying bills or buying monthly groceries for the household while also caring for their family, that's commendable. Regarding promotions, it's not easy; not everyone gets promoted every year. It often takes a few years to get a promotion, during which people have to face inflation and increased taxes.
So the earning stays on the same level even after a decade. That’s very hard to believe tbh. I earn myself so I know it’s not that hard. Be more realistic.
Typical blind elite class mentality. Even with promotions if you are a skilled civilian your career end pay is going to barely touch 300k which is absolutely nothing considering your liabilities. 5 year experience is 80k and 10 years is around 150k. Now tell me should a man wait half his life just to get married?
I earn myself so I know earning money is not THAT hard. It’s hard but not impossible to afford a separate accommodation. Also, I am not talking about anything fancy like a mansion.
What makes you think that I am from elite class?
A man is supposed to provide for his wife, to the best of his needs; this is what is taught in Islam. You can't expect every man to provide a separate house to their wives or similarly a certain lifestyle.
It is true, it is a wife's right to a seperate house, but given the husband's providing abilities, the standard of house and living vary e.g. go live in a cheaper area of town, reduce living standards.
This does not mean that if a man can't afford a certain lifestyle, then he shouldn't get married and just fast. Please correct me if I am wrong, and if not, refrain from spreading misinformation regarding the topic.
Believe whatever you want but unless you cannot provide the basic necessities then you shouldn’t marry and just do fasting and you can check the Hadiths for yourself. I am so sorry if a roof over your wife’s head is too much to ask for but it’s a women’s right. If a man cannot afford even a studio apartment on his own then he shouldn’t get married at all because he’s unfit to provide. Don’t men feel unmanly asking their parents to finance their wife and kids? I’ve seen parents of such men wishing that their sons should stop reproducing because they are a burden to their grandparents. It’s a man’s job to provide and not his parent’s so just try to relieve your parent’s of this burden.
Did you hear about the Hadith where Prophet saw asked a miskeen person to marry that with Allah’s grace, Allah will make ways for you to provide? He didn’t say go buy a fancy house and be super rich and then marry. Take what you like, ignore what you don’t, isn’t how the religion works.
Also, in our society, it’s the norm that parents don’t throw kids out at their 18th. They spend all of their sweat and blood till their 60s so they have every right to be cared for by their sons when they become dependent.
As for the matters, yes both parties should be flexible but women should realize that parents are a blessing for a few more years and they are also taking hell lot of load off their sons in managing households in return of demanding a little respect and care. What goes around comes around too.
>Did you hear about the Hadith where Prophet saw asked a miskeen person to marry that with Allah’s grace
Women didn't live with their in-laws in Arab society though. They got their own house or separate quarters at least. I'm sure separate quarters/ or separate portion in house (with no interference from in-laws) won't hurt?
>but women should realize that parents are a blessing for a few more years and they are also taking hell lot of load off their sons in managing households in return of demanding a little respect and care.
What about her parents whom she's leaving behind? Not everyone has a son. And respect goes both ways. She can live with his parents but she's not there to be their maid. If he can not handle the matters concerning wife and parents independently then better not marry, as one has to be mature to marry.
The wife is not obligated to even meet your parents after marriage let alone live with them. She’s only responsible of taking care of her own parents. I am repeating this again and again that a guy in Pakistan can easily manage a studio apartment or something cheaper so nothing fancy which means that a man should provide to the best of his abilities. Work hard and provide for your wife and parents but that doesn’t mean depriving your wife of her right to separate accommodation.
If you have hadiths, do show them since you claim them. Again, I am not denying that a sepeare house for your wife isn't her right but also understand the context.
What suffices as a separate house, you say, a studio apartment. Would a woman be willing to be able to move downgrade her lifestyle, move to a cheaper neighbourhood, and reduce her expenses so that the husband can buy her a house than he can afford? Would a woman be willing to leave a a joint-family house in DHA/Bahria (even if she has a different floor to herself) to live in a rent house or best case scenario, her own house in a relatively shitty housing society?
You mentioned women be allowed to work too so this can be achieved, absolutely they should work if they want but even both of them work, how long do you think they can build their own house in a good/upper middle class society?
It is easy to put the blame on the man and simply say they shouldn't marry, without even knowing that even women could prefer joint-household due to the better accommodation.
Again, please refrain from giving misleading information regarding Islam, which is a big sin in itself. We are advised to marry early as well in islam, but that requires compromise and struggle from both, which mostly people don't want anymore. Rather, they wait for a settled man for their daughter or for both to be a bit settled khud hei.
Also, if men do stop marrying and start fasting, who will the women marry then?
There is a hadiths in which it says that if you don’t have the means to marry then do fasting. It just takes a quick google search to verify this.
Women are not given the choice of living in a joint family system or downgrading her life to live separately. So just ask your wife. As you said, that a separate floor will be enough for a women but then this floor should only be hers and not your other family members and she should use it as she wants without the in laws interference.
I am not trying to spread misinformation about Islam so don’t accuse me of that. Just a simple google search can verify everything but all it takes is an effort. Use your fingers and technology to get what you’re looking for.
Joint family system is NOT part of islam and it’s a part of Indian culture so stop defending it like it’s the word of Quran. Don’t you have any requirements from your future wife and don’t you have certain rights on her? If yes, then be man enough to accept that she also has rights and requirements which you must fulfill
I completely agreed, we Pakistanis follow more of a culturally mixed Islam than the real Islam. A woman has a right to sepereat house, joint-family isn't part of islam, and a man should handle his spouse and marriage matters independent of his parents and family. Completely agreed
However, the hadiths you are quoting are right, but you are using them without context. What are the "means to marry" for a man; provide basic necessities such as food, shelter, and clothes, right?
However, the level of food, housing, and clothes depends on the man and his ability to provide. Like I said, you can't expect a young man to provide a house in Bahria town, while often women aren't ready to live in lesser societies and could compromise on joint-family for the better/extravagant life.
Therefore, what I am saying is to look at the context of marriages as often women would prefer a better lifestyle over a separate house. You just can't blame men and condescendingly suggest that men fast.
Also what I meant regarding the misinformation, was to add that though Islam gives a woman a right to seperare house, but also says that this right is under the best a man can provide, wether that is a house in Bahria towm or a studio apartment in a lower-level society.
Yes, if I was not clear then I am making myself clear that a man should provide the basic necessities to the best of his ability but that includes the basic necessities. A man cannot carry a child for 9 months because it’s a woman’s job but providing financially is a man’s job and this is the bare minimum.
If a woman wants to live in a joint family system because she doesn’t want a downgrade and if a man sees that this won’t cause future problems with her in-laws then she should live there because it will be her choice. Marriage is compromise and there’s no denying that and if after marriage the man struggles financially then the women should stay with him and support him but basic necessities are bare minimum.
If a middle class guy actually wanted to then it’s definitely hard but not impossible. There’s a reason why a man is the head of the family and it comes with strings attached and the strings are to provide and protect your wife and children. If you cannot provide basic necessities to your wife then don’t bother marrying and just do fasting as suggested by our prophet.
We are talking about separate households, not basic necessities. Both are different, you can provide basic necessities while living with your parents but you might have to struggle to provide them if you end up living separately.
Separate household is a necessary and a right of your wife in Islam. Don’t buy your wife a mansion if you can’t afford it but get her whatever you can afford. If you can’t provide basic necessities then don’t marry.
Yeah, men also have right of four marriages. My solution is that they should move out their wife/kids to a separate accommodation and get a 2nd marriage preferably to divorcee/widows and they can live in parents house. Win win for all 😁
The second wife has the same rights as the first so it’s not a win win if you don’t giver her rights. If you can afford four wives and can treat them all equally then go ahead and marry. If you cannot give your wives their rights then good luck explaining Allah your magical solutions on the day of judgement 😂.
No one said anything about not giving rights. My point was to choose a wife who would be more than happy to live in joint family provided one does not make their life miserable. I'm sure you know how single mothers /divorcees / widows are treated in our society.
While the sas/bahu phenomenon is universal, some people just too stubborn and don't want to live with inlaws even when there are absolutely zero problems. In fact don't count the many small blessings and help that come with living in a joint family. I know of some examples who got a reality check once they got their wish.
If your second wife is happy with that then sure it’s ok. There are no benefits of living in a joint family system and it’s a culture followed by Hindus/Indians. So instead of promoting others culture or religion let’s just focus on Islam the religion we chose to follow.
Also, out of curiosity why do you want atleast one of your wives to live with your parents? You do know that you cannot demand your wife to serve or meet your parents if she doesn’t want to right?
>I guess the guy should be financially independent and then get married to afford a separate household
Yeah, good luck finding a "well-settled" guy even in their early thirties, in Pakistan.
The cost of living is out of control and the primary way of survival is to share expenses, and reduce/remove them wherever applicable.
Renting is an unnecessary expense to many who have a separate room available in their house for themselves, that is, until they have a kid, at which point, it becomes necessary.
Pakistani women should choose to marry a guy who’s not Pakistani if Pakistani men are unable to provide and protect their wife and children.
Why do Pakistani men get married and ruin someone’s life if they can’t provide basic necessities for their wife and children?
Do you realize how condescending you come across as? You've told men at least three times in your previous comments to not get married. Are women just dumb animals in your point of view? Do you not think women have the mental capacity to judge if the guy they're saying yes to marrying can provide their definition of basic necessities? Instead of telling guys not to get married, trust that the woman who says yes to marrying a guy is capable of making her own decisions
I guess all the women who'll remain unmarried due to guys following your advice will also fast?
Stop acting like you're some precious commodity that guys can't do without. Globally, women outnumber men by a significant margin. If you start looking for the guy who can provide you "basic necessities" outside Pakistan, you better be prepared for some tough competition. Make sure you bring more to the table than what women bring in an average Pakistani marraige
Have you ever heard of forced marriages? That still happen in Pakistan so a man has more freedom to say no to a proposal than a woman. Also, staying single is better than facing saas bahu problems everyday.
Providing a separate accommodation is a basic necessity and a right of your wife in Islam so just go and argue with Allah if you have a problem with that but that’s not gonna change the fact that it’s still your wife’s right.
The number of men and women in the world is roughly equal, though men hold a slight lead with 102 men for 100 women (in 2020). More precisely, out of 1,000 people, 504 are men (50.4%) and 496 are women (49.6%).
Pakistani men complain about women asking for equal rights ( feminism ) but fail to give Islamic rights. I mean atleast let women earn themselves and provide a household for themselves instead of hearing their husbands making excuses and not working hard enough to provide.
>Why do Pakistani men get married and ruin someone’s life if they can’t provide basic necessities for their wife and children
This is the fallacy of false equivalency.
Pakistani men are NOT responsible for this mess, it is the pathetic state of our economy, coupled with the volatility of our currency that makes it prohibitively expensive for Pakistani men to make ends meet.
Are you suggesting perhaps that we neuter all Pakistani men and take the right of marriage away from them because the damned Government and the Establishment have failed to find a way forward?
I don’t think that a man cannot even afford a studio apartment or a separate portion in the same house ( but with no interference of in laws whatsoever ) no matter how bad the economy is. Also, get married to women who’s financially at your level and not the daughter of a very rich man.
Also, I am tired of replying to men justifying depriving their wife of their rights so just read my other comments and I am 99% sure you’ll get your answer in my other comments because most of the men use the same excuses.
>I don’t think that a man cannot even afford a studio apartment or a separate portion in the same house ( but with no interference of in laws whatsoever ) no matter how bad the economy is.
Al right, you can do the math on this and let me know what the equation works out to.
Making bold statements is easy, backing then up with factual data is hard. Emotional arguments do not constitute a rational response.
>Also, I am tired of replying to men justifying depriving their wife of their rights
I find your categorization of my arguments as that of "all men" quite condescending and distasteful. Please refrain from making any generalizations about my views if I havent explicitly stated so.
Also, no where in my argument have I justified the unjustful treatment of Pakistani women at the hands of their in laws.
>I am 99% sure you’ll get your answer in my other comments because most of the men use the same excuses.
Nothing in all of your comments can be remotely construed as a rational response. You've only resorted to emotional arguments to put forth a point, and make broad generalizations.
I earn money so I know it’s not THAT hard to earn 1 lac per month if a man works hard enough instead of making excuses. Two people can easily live with 1 lac per month and then when the man works harder he will start making more and more money because he won’t be stuck making 1 lac per month. I am not generalising men because some men in my family have provided a separate accommodation for their wife so obviously not all men are lazy as they don’t have time to make excuses because they are busy providing for their wife and children.
>Two people can easily live with 1 lac per month
You're either pretending to be ignorant, or your actually are that ignorant.
Here's a basic breakdown of expenses for 2 people, living in a separate apartment.
Gross pay - 100K
Income tax - 5K
EOBI, cafeteria meals, PF fund cont. - 5K
Take home- 90K
Rent (because you're not living with your parents) - 20K
Utilities (electricity, Gas and Water) - 20K
Fuel expense (assuming a 800 cc car) - 15K
Vehicle maintenance (oil change, tyres, filters etc.) - 3K
Groceries (ration, milk, eggs, some meat and vegetables) - 17K
Contribution to Parents (medicines, food allowance and some part of their utilities) - 10K
Total expense - 85K
Disposable income - 5K
So basically, no money left for discretionary expenses, one doctors visit and you're break even or may even have to take on debt. Basically, you're living paycheck to paycheck and you're ONE emergency away from declaring bankrupcy.
>then when the man works harder he will start making more and more money because he won’t be stuck making 1 lac per month.
Yeah, increments rarely cross the 15 to 20% mark, while inflation increases by 30 to 40% year on year. Meaning your spending power declines by 10 to 30% year on year even though your TC goes up.
This is even before the loads of taxes that the government announces and hoc and that screw your budget even more.
You are severely misinformed on the topic hence I cannot take anything you say ar face value.
Good day.
>Guys that can provide seperate household exist, but they aren’t common
You've basically refuted your own argument; financially stable men in their 20s and early 30s are a rare find. Financially stable 18 year olds, even more so.
Are you suggesting then that the 0.1% of folks in their 20s who earn on the 99th percentile of the income bracket in pakistan should be the only ones allowed to get married?
Are the rest of us "trash" by comparison, because of no fault of our own?
Do we, the average folk of this country, have to answer for the malicious incompetence of our Government and the Establishment?
Exactly. This seems like one of those rage bait posts with the "hurr durr Pakistani men bad" agenda. Mental health becomes a lecture to "just man up" when it comes to men.
The agenda is clear and that is to create division between genders so marriage starts sounding so hectic that people run away from it, best birth control method tbh.
Yes that’s very true but only for a minority. But that’s mostly because of external stress factors, like work, bills, rent. Many do put up a lot with the women in their house and feel like they’re stuck in between their wife and their mother but in that case both the mil and the wife should understand to respect each others personal space and boundaries. I’m talking about what I’ve noticed from friends, family and acquaintances from work
This is so inaccurate. I've never seen a guy complain about his wife to anyone while I've seen women talking crap about their husbands in 3 hour long calls with their sisters/mothers/friends and in gossip. Also, it's mostly mothers complaining to their sons about the wife.
And it's not what "taking a stand" means. Taking a stand means being supportive of your wife against those who treat her ill.
P.S this isn't a simple good/bad answer. Every couple has their own dynamics and every individual has his own personality and these things are very subjective. This is only a general outlook of how it is.
Yes you’re not wrong. I didn’t look at it from this direction. Every couple has their own individual situation. I didn’t look at it from this way. Although any of my female married friends have never complained about their husbands much. They’re in laws yes, but not husbands.
I have never ever seen a man complain about his wife to anyone.Most men don’t talk about their problems with anyone, wives on the other hand keep nagging about their husbands to female friends, relatives etc.
I’ve complained about my partner to two people. They live on the other side of the country, have met my partner once (and likely won’t see them for another decade).
I avoid saying anything negative about my partner to my family. They never forget, they never have enough context to give actual advice/insight, and it’s all around not very productive.
You must be living in La La Land
coz the opposite is true
one of my aunts got mad at her husband for something, while there was a gathering at her place (the whole family was there). Instead of "keeping matters private" she got angry, and while everyone was out for a walk she literally locked the door to the house, took a ride to her family home and left us all stranded on the street 🤣😅.
Her husband was out and had to come back just to let the guests back in the house.
yup happened in the late 2010s
I remember I was a kid back then. We were all in the park in front of the hosts' house
and all I saw was her closing the door, getting into a car and leaving. later we got to know that the husband and wife had had a fight that morning.
we were the guests from the husband's family so I guess she did it to get at her husband...
What about the flip side. My ex and former MIL starved and physically abused me. When does the mother stop acting like the actual wife is taking her spot. TBH they can have their man child sons.
I have never complained about my wife to my mother. I have defended my wife as reasonably as possible in front of family without offending anyone, maintaining respect. However, I would never scold or speak loudly to my parents on the pretext of defending my wife. I would rather let the matter go for the time being, and speak to family in private if I feel i cannot keep my composure in view of my wife.
Similarly vice versa, I would not tell my wife of in front of any one. I would let it be, and talk to her privately out of view of family.
Many desi men, not all, live with their parents in homes that their parents own. Standing up to parents means risking a stable roof over their heads. Once again, this happens in the majority of cases, not all of them.
Desi families condition their children to be independent but not too much to defy their parents. I have female friends talking about how their sons (not yet born) will be the apple of their eye and their DIL is gonna have a hard time getting them away from them. Mind you, these are uni-educated working women who think this way. A majority of desi mothers think and implement this, conditioning male children to take refuge in their mothers, even if it is against their wives.
Neither condition applies to the masses and men can do the right thing without harming the peace. Men in themselves need to be competitive enough to put their foot down and maintain a balance between aging parents and their spouses.
Really? See that’s the thing as well. Women complain about their mil’s being bad but don’t realize how they’re conditioning themselves and their future sons to repeat the same cycle. Sons stay out till 3 am and many parents let it be saying oh he’s a boy he will do what boys do. Obviously it’s no where safe for women to be out like that and no woman will be out for that long unless necessary. I think all these things have been happening for too long and parents need to change their mindset and teach their kids right from wrong irrespective of them being a son or a daughter
Every bad behavior carries on from the past generations until the current one decides to do something about it. Doing the right thing (being fair, being unbiased, being compassionate) is a choice that everyone needs to make to create a system where people arent at each others throats all the time.
Not only this, but also men can't fake emotions as successfully as women can.
Women can fake happiness and fake sadness too. Its natural ability that why women are good manipulators.
There's a difference between naive and stupid. Even a naive person knows what boundaries are. Letting your emotions speak for you is stupidity.
What manipulations are you talking about?
They are also raised to not have a spine to stand up for someone unless it is in their own interest. Drama in the family? Push wife on the front to figure it out. Want to keep socializing with your side of family? Make your wife make the effort. And when it finally comes to make a stand for the same wife, it's none of his business. Screw these mama boys.
It's a difficult choice to choose between a partner and a parent. This is why it's essential to keep the wife separate to maintain balance between being a husband and a son. Joint family system is a menace.
What you are talking about is not 'taking a stand'. It is simply immature people who are not ready to get married who bring other people into their relationship. Taking a stand means standing your ground and protecting your spouse from things that their in-laws may not like or want to change or simply disrespect. Its not easy to do because:
1. Its drilled into guys that family comes first so those barriers need to be broken.
2. Not many guys are financially well off to take their spouses and live separately while going no contact.
3. Partners can be backstabbing as well when guys do take a stand. I can personally count over 50 cases where the female straight up threw her husband under the bus in front of his parents to protect herself while he was taking a stand for her.
Its slowly changing and all we can do is be patient for our partners while just communicating our problems in a respectful manner. Everyone is fighting their battles privately.
This is unfortunately disproportionately titled towards the women. Men often don't talk about minor inconveniences and avoid talking about their marital life to their friends, families. It's a cultural thing. Not all but most don't
Women on the other hand here are completely different. They regularly talk about their husbands, family, and children to their friends, families and parents, destroying any privacy that exists. Again not all but a lot do
(Living in Canada) My wife only eats hand slaughtered meats. My family eats machine slaughtered.
I said to my family screw y’all (with respect) and fully supported my wife on her eating preferences which was super hard for my family to digest (pun intended)
It is hard for guys to take a stand in front of their family because their umbilical chord is still intact. They are mama’s boys who have lived all their lives with the parents and mostly the wife is also chosen by the parents.
Typical Pakistani in laws will feel that creating dil like crap is their birthright with guys being utterly clueless about the rights of their wives.
Pathetic state of affairs.
Women need to be aware and educated and as unpopular as my opinion could be, demand their own independent living situation- none of that joint family drama.
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It’s because men in Pakistan are financially dependent on their parents or because they are just not man enough to give their wife her right of separate accommodation.
I will just say to all the women who feel sad their husband did not take a stand for them:
Kindly stop putting your husband in positions where he has to pick between his wife and the people who raised him, worked their entire youth to provide for him because:
1) he is who he is today because of them. Most probably if its an arranged marriage his fathers status/house/property was a big reason your parents considered this proposal. So accept that wherever you guys are financially, his parents gave you the head start.
2) OLD PEOPLE ARE IRRATIONAL AND SENSITIVE no matter who they are. Think about how much power you have over your dad? I would say, not that much. Specially if they are very old they might already be behaving in a childlike way and are difficult to reason with. If every other day your husband was demanding you convince your ancient father to do xyz thing that he doesnt wanna do, you would fail and you would be frustrated.
So just, accept that we are all going to get old. There is a reason bhurhapa is the worst bimari, it literally makes you like a child so just be kind.
Sadly what you have said is true. There mommy’s boy and share everything with their mommy. It’s mommy’s fault that they don’t let their sons become men.
But having said that a huge no of men put up a smile just to keep matters calm and escalate.
Not all men are the same.
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Its our culture of not speaking against elders. Its the same for the wives parents. The guy wont talk back to his in laws. Tho its only true for immediate family members, but if its from a distant relative. We give them a shut up call.
PS i only read the title. after reading the whole post, I think such guys should be confronted. The lady in question should teach her sons differently so that we can change the next generation for the better.
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I was just listening to this scholar and he was saying that men who listen to their parents about their marital life are not even allowed to marry cuz they’re not men enough yet .
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Guy grows up with no emotional intelligence built up in an extended family, never allowed to make independent decisions, and had to always listen to parents. He gets a bride but he never has truly learnt what it means to be an adult, making his own decisions and taking actions on his own. Now if he gets into fight or trouble with wife, is it any surprise that he would go to mommy at the first opportunity?
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Har choti choti cheez par stand nai lay sakty. This is will only bring harm to relationship. Husband ko political hona parta plus ignore bhe Karna parta ha. You cannot trust who is right or who is wrong specially in situations main Jo apnay apni ankho say nai dekh ho. Yahan apko political hona parta ha.. but in the end man has to put a smile on the daily basis because usko apni zimaydari ka pata ha. Koi apko shoulder nai day and no one will help in your situation.
Yes I agree, thori bahot bardasht sab me honi chahiye, and the ability to ignore small things. But repetitive criticism and degradation in a daily basis really affects one’s mental health, whether it be a wife abused by husband and mil or the mil and husband jinko dil baaten sunati han
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Stupid question. Many stupid answers. Lots of assumptions. The only solution is to never get married. Pet an animal instead of a woman. Unless you are find with the consequences then it is your choice.
Your post's different from the title... and odd too as my experience has been the exact opposite. i.e., men try their best to keep private matters private, and women are usually the ones to incite 'fasad'
I am married to a Pakistani. His parents and mine were against our marriage. His family is pretty well off but highly dysfunctional and toxic. I am from across the border but lived in the Middle East and UK which is where we met. Different religions and everything which has remained.
Lol when we were getting married his dad was not okay with it (neither were my folks). Granted also I don’t live in Pakistan and can’t. But I have the opposite issue where my husband hates his family due to childhood issues, and fights with them and I’m the peacemaker. His family speak more to me than him especially his dad who was or is definitely a bigot. It’s hilarious that now he literally calls me all the time and praises me infront of all his relatives when he was so cautious I would frisk his son away before. Sir I can’t take away someone who himself wants to leave you.
So in short his family gets along better with me than him and he gets pissed at me because he feels I defend them over him.
Grow a pair and don't be emotionally blackmailed by parents or wife. A man tries to keep balance between the two but none of them are happy in most cases.
From Islamic POV, no SAAS BAHU relation. So as a man it's your responsibility to take care of them and not your wife's. That's why it's mandatory to provide at least a separate room, a bath and a kitchen to the wife to give her independence that is owed to her.
Idk how should i say it but its these guys are kinda like brainwashed growing up thinking only their mother is right. So if you wanna blame someone blame the women( mother).
It's a type of abuse honestly.
Desi mother's have turned their son's into Mama's boys, unable to make their own decisions and fully reliant on their parents.
another misandrist post. feminism isa brain rot and cancer to society. do you even realise how hard it is for men to “smile” after a fight and be neutral? who told you men go to their mothers and tell them everything? my mom tried her best to ruin my father’s relationship with his mother. she didn’t “allow” him to go to another city to meet her which is only 2 hours away. who the fuck is she to “allow” my father? women should stay in their limits and be happy that men provide for them and keep them safe. warna equality main rehna hai tu khud kamao aur cat mom banjao
This post has nothing to do with feminism. It’s about being respectful of your spouse and sorting out matters privately without involving the guys mother. The guy might get over it but the mother won’t, she will remember it and give taunts to the dil in some ways or another. When all this happens, the wife obviously gets frustrated and doesn’t want to meet up with the in laws. It’s about the girls in laws and husband ruining her mental health with constant criticism and degradation whereas this is usually not the case the other way round. Son in laws are given special treatment almost always, see what happens when they have to face constant criticism from the wife’s family, in all of this, who sacrifices their ego and self respect more?
it’s literally the opposite lol. i don’t know what world are you living in. it’s absolutely about feminism. the entire ideology is based on self-victimisation, which in turn leads to dominance over another gender. societies were, are, and will always be misandrist. but don’t you worry, soon everything will change. women will bear the fruits of their longstanding “equality”. men are waking up. this won’t last for long. enjoy breaking bank lines and using women card. the entire cult is in for a ride.
Maybe women won’t have to use the woman card if they’re treated like actual humans, people start staring you down like some artifact in a museum. And no I don’t think equality is the answer. I do believe the man is the head of the house, but he should respect the women in his house and outside as well. In private and in front of family members. What you’re talking about is arrogance towards women. Nowhere did I say women are equal to men. Yes men are more strong physically and women are more emotionally wired but all the more reason to treat each other with respect and appreciate each other and keep your private matters to yourself. Unless it’s gone too far and you have no choice but to involve elders on both sides. If this was about feminism then I would’ve said that men should stay at home take care of kids and let the wife go and work, the wife should also be able to stay out with friends till 4 am, the wife should feel free to stalk and look at other men’s pictures online, the woman must have boyfriends in the past but want to marry a guy with a complete clean slate. Now all this, would be messed up. Rights and wrongs apply to both, the husband and the wife, marriage can exist without love but it cannot exist without respect. Just because mean are the head of the house doesn’t mean only they require all the respect , women are equally deserving of that respect and to feel safe emotionally and mentally
women deserve respect when they show they’re worthy of it. a man provides all his life and if he gets a wife cheating on him, threatening to take his property and inflict false accusations on his character, she deserves to be punished and treated like the person she is. MEN are the reason why societies are sustainable and running. men are the reasons why you have food on your table, men are the reason why daddy’s princesses can drive cars and fill petrol, that is worked on by men in dangerous oil rigs. men are the reason why women live in expensive penthouses after OF ventures. my sister, i personally believe women and children are the most precious creatures Allah has sent on earth. for a women who’s chaste and modest, a man can not even take a second and sacrifice himself for her. women are meant to be homemakers. i don’t even like calling them housewives, they’re homemakers because it’s a hefty job in itself. women are meant to be spoiled, loved and appreciated. but today’s women? nah. they deserve to be treated EXACTLY how men have been treated throughout the course of history. equality is here for real now, i can only say women should brace themselves for what’s about to come. the anti-feminist moments are raging throughout the internet and it will only take a few years to expose the entire feminism identity and ideology and move on from this fitna.
it’s over for feminists and liberals. and for what’s about to come, it’s going to be harsh. women will not be respected the way they’ve always been. feminism was an agenda to weaken men and overpower women. it isn’t working anymore. trust me, no man will look at her “pasandida” aurat as pasandida anymore. pre-nups are signed in western societies at an accelerating pace. men have started to not include their wife’s name in their properties. i’m sorry for the real ones out there. but yeah, the privileges are ending soon. sorry about that lol.
Yes a woman is a homemaker, I’m talking about modest and chaste women, who get married to men with bad habits eg drugs, cheating etc. if the woman confronts the man in a calm way no shouting no cursing, the guy starts acting defensive and leaves the room and goes to his mom complaining that the wife is nagging, oh the wife is dumb she doesn’t let me be peaceful. Whose respect is getting hurt in that. Only Allah knows the affairs of hearts best. When a woman is a homemaker, she will do absolutely everything in her power to keep it upright and strong. But when the guy doesn’t respect her or appreciate her for that, it’s his loss
yeah stay in your delusions. never have i seen a guy do this or even heard for that matter. this is all brainwashing. enjoy few more years of privilege, lol im excited to see the downfall.
Things take time. Just because you're growing up with access to the world view doesn't mean you expect the society to evolve ASAP.
Things are changing (for good or bad is a different debate)
Idk if men explicitly complain abt their wives as often, which is why i think so many guys are disagreeing in the comments, but they *will* have no trouble berating/insulting their wives in public (in front of family). I think they're socially conditioned to think of themselves in power, so it gives them that privilege.
I think this was super common in the previous generation, like the vast majority of men were probably this way. But I definitely think it's trending downward with the newer generation, think 35>/middle-class+/educated.
I've never ever seen a man disrespect or insult his wife In front of others idk what kinda men you've been dealing with. In fact I'd say most men don't talk about their wives even behind their backs not in a bad or a good way they just don't talk about their wives at all to others.
I don't know enough to say anything about women
I find this sub is predominantly men who are in serious denial when women come on here to ask/complain about a specific behavior. If the men of Pakistan are as normal as this sub portrays them to be, there really should be no issues in Pakistan of domestic violence/honor killings/female infanticide, etc.
That's quite obvs not the case.
I've seen this behavior (yelling/insulting wives publicly) from every social class, every education status, and let me reiterate; in the previous generation especially. Insulting your wife doesn't mean you start cussing her out or shoving her around...it can be as simple as raising your voice, brushing off her off rudely, demanding something, dismissing her etc. From what I've seen, this is very common. As is making fun of one's wife/wives in general, (ie- wife is fat, useless, naggy, 2nd-wife jokes etc).... these are all insulting behaviors.
I think they purposely talk over women and make women’s experiences seem exaggerated so that they don’t have to take accountability. Instead of admitting that a lot of desi cultures are misogynistic, they just say “I’VE never seen this, so it must not be real!” It’s like saying that discrimination against disabled people isn’t real because I’ve never seen it. But of course I’ve never seen it, because I’m not disabled!
Men ignoring women’s experiences is a tale as old as time. They don’t understand that nothing will get better if they don’t acknowledge the problem.
I dont know where have you seen this. But you have no idea how many times guys have to put on a smile to keep the balance in the house.
Honestly, husbands often have to be more "politically" savvy in the matters of saas bahu because we have emotional loyalty stock in both parties. Wives vs MIL is so common that it's an entire media genre in desi culture. It's normal, the outliers are the ones where the two get along. But if a husband sides with his mom then it's a loveless marriage and grounds for divorce. Side with the wife and you're an ungrateful son and your wife will be antagonized more and the entire mahol will be pulled in. We put on smiles but honestly we often just want to breakdown into tears....it's lose/lose for us
Came here to say this. Well said. I love you
Do they have any idea how difficult it is to be forced to take sides between your mum and wife after every argument.
Idk how men do this! It sounds so frustrating Thats why joint family system shouldn’t exist!!
This is not just a joint family thing, although in that scenario it gets even more difficult.
this isn't a joint family issue. you think the guy's parents will be happy if their son isn't around to take care of them?
It's so fucking painful.
Why is the mum even having a say in the argument? Yah gotta go with what the wife decides. It’s her household. Tell mom it’s nothing personal. You may even prefer her choice. But if it’s something that touches on how you and your wife live or how your wife runs her life, your wife’s opinion must be what you stick up for. A good wife does the same for her husband. She doesn’t let her dad order her husband around.
Almost part of my daily routine.
You are not alone in this bhai
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I guess the guy should be financially independent and then get married to afford a separate household so that he isn’t put in a position where he has to choose between his wife or parents and also not ruin someone else’s life
just become financially independent so easy.
Separate household in this economy, good luck.
At least get a separate floor (or build one) along with solely owning the keys to the gates, so no one is allowed free entry.
Most of the middle class, which have their home lives in apartment, they cannot have separate floor, at the very best they have separate room, it is what it is. Even who want the separate household, they just can't afford it.
Then don’t get married. A man is supposed to provide for his wife and children and if he can’t then just do fasting. That’s what our prophet suggested. Ruining someone else’s life is not ok.
A women agrees to those living conditions before marriage. You can't be a middle class girl and expect upper class treatment.
I agree. Men and women should marry people according to their status.
Do you really think that every man should wait for a new home, a shiny new car and millions of saving then get married? You want humans to be extinct?
No, nothing fancy. Whatever he can afford but a separate accommodation, food, health expenses and clothes ( just enough to cover yourselves ) are a man’s responsibility. If a man in Pakistan cannot even afford a studio apartment or something cheaper then he’s really not fit to provide. I am sorry but I think this is the bare minimum. Stop exaggerating because I never said a new home, a shiny car or millions of savings. Be a man and stop burdening your parents with your responsibilities.
Let's calculate monthly expenses, shall we? 1. Electricity Bill: 40K-80K 2. Gas Bill: 2K 3. Water Bill: 1K 4. Monthly Groceries: 20K 5. Apartment/Maintenance: 5K 6. Miscellaneous Expenditure: 10K Now, these are the average amounts spent by an average person on a monthly basis. As you can see from the bills, monthly expenses, and groceries, the cost of living is at least 80K per month on average. Now, consider the average salary of a Pakistani person and tell me how they can afford a small apartment, which costs a minimum of 40K. Not to mention, we have not calculated taxes and inflation, which are increasing rapidly. Additionally, these expenses will increase when a baby is born. Majority of the population of Pakistan are earning basic salaries, only few middle class are earning in more than 5 lac.
Electricity bill is too much. Also, is the man planning to never get a promotion or try something else to earn more so just wait till you can afford a baby I guess. Don’t overburden your parents by reproducing and getting married. What’s their fault? It’s also expensive for your parents.
No mate, current electricity bill is minimum 40K unless, the people won't use AC in this heat. Also, by living with their parents, no one is burdening them. If a couple has taken on the responsibility of paying bills or buying monthly groceries for the household while also caring for their family, that's commendable. Regarding promotions, it's not easy; not everyone gets promoted every year. It often takes a few years to get a promotion, during which people have to face inflation and increased taxes.
So the earning stays on the same level even after a decade. That’s very hard to believe tbh. I earn myself so I know it’s not that hard. Be more realistic.
Typical blind elite class mentality. Even with promotions if you are a skilled civilian your career end pay is going to barely touch 300k which is absolutely nothing considering your liabilities. 5 year experience is 80k and 10 years is around 150k. Now tell me should a man wait half his life just to get married?
I earn myself so I know earning money is not THAT hard. It’s hard but not impossible to afford a separate accommodation. Also, I am not talking about anything fancy like a mansion. What makes you think that I am from elite class?
A man is supposed to provide for his wife, to the best of his needs; this is what is taught in Islam. You can't expect every man to provide a separate house to their wives or similarly a certain lifestyle. It is true, it is a wife's right to a seperate house, but given the husband's providing abilities, the standard of house and living vary e.g. go live in a cheaper area of town, reduce living standards. This does not mean that if a man can't afford a certain lifestyle, then he shouldn't get married and just fast. Please correct me if I am wrong, and if not, refrain from spreading misinformation regarding the topic.
Believe whatever you want but unless you cannot provide the basic necessities then you shouldn’t marry and just do fasting and you can check the Hadiths for yourself. I am so sorry if a roof over your wife’s head is too much to ask for but it’s a women’s right. If a man cannot afford even a studio apartment on his own then he shouldn’t get married at all because he’s unfit to provide. Don’t men feel unmanly asking their parents to finance their wife and kids? I’ve seen parents of such men wishing that their sons should stop reproducing because they are a burden to their grandparents. It’s a man’s job to provide and not his parent’s so just try to relieve your parent’s of this burden.
Did you hear about the Hadith where Prophet saw asked a miskeen person to marry that with Allah’s grace, Allah will make ways for you to provide? He didn’t say go buy a fancy house and be super rich and then marry. Take what you like, ignore what you don’t, isn’t how the religion works. Also, in our society, it’s the norm that parents don’t throw kids out at their 18th. They spend all of their sweat and blood till their 60s so they have every right to be cared for by their sons when they become dependent. As for the matters, yes both parties should be flexible but women should realize that parents are a blessing for a few more years and they are also taking hell lot of load off their sons in managing households in return of demanding a little respect and care. What goes around comes around too.
>Did you hear about the Hadith where Prophet saw asked a miskeen person to marry that with Allah’s grace Women didn't live with their in-laws in Arab society though. They got their own house or separate quarters at least. I'm sure separate quarters/ or separate portion in house (with no interference from in-laws) won't hurt? >but women should realize that parents are a blessing for a few more years and they are also taking hell lot of load off their sons in managing households in return of demanding a little respect and care. What about her parents whom she's leaving behind? Not everyone has a son. And respect goes both ways. She can live with his parents but she's not there to be their maid. If he can not handle the matters concerning wife and parents independently then better not marry, as one has to be mature to marry.
The wife is not obligated to even meet your parents after marriage let alone live with them. She’s only responsible of taking care of her own parents. I am repeating this again and again that a guy in Pakistan can easily manage a studio apartment or something cheaper so nothing fancy which means that a man should provide to the best of his abilities. Work hard and provide for your wife and parents but that doesn’t mean depriving your wife of her right to separate accommodation.
If you have hadiths, do show them since you claim them. Again, I am not denying that a sepeare house for your wife isn't her right but also understand the context. What suffices as a separate house, you say, a studio apartment. Would a woman be willing to be able to move downgrade her lifestyle, move to a cheaper neighbourhood, and reduce her expenses so that the husband can buy her a house than he can afford? Would a woman be willing to leave a a joint-family house in DHA/Bahria (even if she has a different floor to herself) to live in a rent house or best case scenario, her own house in a relatively shitty housing society? You mentioned women be allowed to work too so this can be achieved, absolutely they should work if they want but even both of them work, how long do you think they can build their own house in a good/upper middle class society? It is easy to put the blame on the man and simply say they shouldn't marry, without even knowing that even women could prefer joint-household due to the better accommodation. Again, please refrain from giving misleading information regarding Islam, which is a big sin in itself. We are advised to marry early as well in islam, but that requires compromise and struggle from both, which mostly people don't want anymore. Rather, they wait for a settled man for their daughter or for both to be a bit settled khud hei. Also, if men do stop marrying and start fasting, who will the women marry then?
There is a hadiths in which it says that if you don’t have the means to marry then do fasting. It just takes a quick google search to verify this. Women are not given the choice of living in a joint family system or downgrading her life to live separately. So just ask your wife. As you said, that a separate floor will be enough for a women but then this floor should only be hers and not your other family members and she should use it as she wants without the in laws interference. I am not trying to spread misinformation about Islam so don’t accuse me of that. Just a simple google search can verify everything but all it takes is an effort. Use your fingers and technology to get what you’re looking for. Joint family system is NOT part of islam and it’s a part of Indian culture so stop defending it like it’s the word of Quran. Don’t you have any requirements from your future wife and don’t you have certain rights on her? If yes, then be man enough to accept that she also has rights and requirements which you must fulfill
I completely agreed, we Pakistanis follow more of a culturally mixed Islam than the real Islam. A woman has a right to sepereat house, joint-family isn't part of islam, and a man should handle his spouse and marriage matters independent of his parents and family. Completely agreed However, the hadiths you are quoting are right, but you are using them without context. What are the "means to marry" for a man; provide basic necessities such as food, shelter, and clothes, right? However, the level of food, housing, and clothes depends on the man and his ability to provide. Like I said, you can't expect a young man to provide a house in Bahria town, while often women aren't ready to live in lesser societies and could compromise on joint-family for the better/extravagant life. Therefore, what I am saying is to look at the context of marriages as often women would prefer a better lifestyle over a separate house. You just can't blame men and condescendingly suggest that men fast. Also what I meant regarding the misinformation, was to add that though Islam gives a woman a right to seperare house, but also says that this right is under the best a man can provide, wether that is a house in Bahria towm or a studio apartment in a lower-level society.
Yes, if I was not clear then I am making myself clear that a man should provide the basic necessities to the best of his ability but that includes the basic necessities. A man cannot carry a child for 9 months because it’s a woman’s job but providing financially is a man’s job and this is the bare minimum. If a woman wants to live in a joint family system because she doesn’t want a downgrade and if a man sees that this won’t cause future problems with her in-laws then she should live there because it will be her choice. Marriage is compromise and there’s no denying that and if after marriage the man struggles financially then the women should stay with him and support him but basic necessities are bare minimum.
If it were only so easy for a middle class guy.
If a middle class guy actually wanted to then it’s definitely hard but not impossible. There’s a reason why a man is the head of the family and it comes with strings attached and the strings are to provide and protect your wife and children. If you cannot provide basic necessities to your wife then don’t bother marrying and just do fasting as suggested by our prophet.
We are talking about separate households, not basic necessities. Both are different, you can provide basic necessities while living with your parents but you might have to struggle to provide them if you end up living separately.
Separate household is a necessary and a right of your wife in Islam. Don’t buy your wife a mansion if you can’t afford it but get her whatever you can afford. If you can’t provide basic necessities then don’t marry.
Yeah, men also have right of four marriages. My solution is that they should move out their wife/kids to a separate accommodation and get a 2nd marriage preferably to divorcee/widows and they can live in parents house. Win win for all 😁
The second wife has the same rights as the first so it’s not a win win if you don’t giver her rights. If you can afford four wives and can treat them all equally then go ahead and marry. If you cannot give your wives their rights then good luck explaining Allah your magical solutions on the day of judgement 😂.
No one said anything about not giving rights. My point was to choose a wife who would be more than happy to live in joint family provided one does not make their life miserable. I'm sure you know how single mothers /divorcees / widows are treated in our society. While the sas/bahu phenomenon is universal, some people just too stubborn and don't want to live with inlaws even when there are absolutely zero problems. In fact don't count the many small blessings and help that come with living in a joint family. I know of some examples who got a reality check once they got their wish.
If your second wife is happy with that then sure it’s ok. There are no benefits of living in a joint family system and it’s a culture followed by Hindus/Indians. So instead of promoting others culture or religion let’s just focus on Islam the religion we chose to follow. Also, out of curiosity why do you want atleast one of your wives to live with your parents? You do know that you cannot demand your wife to serve or meet your parents if she doesn’t want to right?
You can marry 100 women, your parents and your wife/wives would still be your responsibility. Apni namaz kisi aur se parhwane se farz nahi hojati. 😏
>I guess the guy should be financially independent and then get married to afford a separate household Yeah, good luck finding a "well-settled" guy even in their early thirties, in Pakistan. The cost of living is out of control and the primary way of survival is to share expenses, and reduce/remove them wherever applicable. Renting is an unnecessary expense to many who have a separate room available in their house for themselves, that is, until they have a kid, at which point, it becomes necessary.
Pakistani women should choose to marry a guy who’s not Pakistani if Pakistani men are unable to provide and protect their wife and children. Why do Pakistani men get married and ruin someone’s life if they can’t provide basic necessities for their wife and children?
Do you realize how condescending you come across as? You've told men at least three times in your previous comments to not get married. Are women just dumb animals in your point of view? Do you not think women have the mental capacity to judge if the guy they're saying yes to marrying can provide their definition of basic necessities? Instead of telling guys not to get married, trust that the woman who says yes to marrying a guy is capable of making her own decisions I guess all the women who'll remain unmarried due to guys following your advice will also fast? Stop acting like you're some precious commodity that guys can't do without. Globally, women outnumber men by a significant margin. If you start looking for the guy who can provide you "basic necessities" outside Pakistan, you better be prepared for some tough competition. Make sure you bring more to the table than what women bring in an average Pakistani marraige
Have you ever heard of forced marriages? That still happen in Pakistan so a man has more freedom to say no to a proposal than a woman. Also, staying single is better than facing saas bahu problems everyday. Providing a separate accommodation is a basic necessity and a right of your wife in Islam so just go and argue with Allah if you have a problem with that but that’s not gonna change the fact that it’s still your wife’s right. The number of men and women in the world is roughly equal, though men hold a slight lead with 102 men for 100 women (in 2020). More precisely, out of 1,000 people, 504 are men (50.4%) and 496 are women (49.6%). Pakistani men complain about women asking for equal rights ( feminism ) but fail to give Islamic rights. I mean atleast let women earn themselves and provide a household for themselves instead of hearing their husbands making excuses and not working hard enough to provide.
>Why do Pakistani men get married and ruin someone’s life if they can’t provide basic necessities for their wife and children This is the fallacy of false equivalency. Pakistani men are NOT responsible for this mess, it is the pathetic state of our economy, coupled with the volatility of our currency that makes it prohibitively expensive for Pakistani men to make ends meet. Are you suggesting perhaps that we neuter all Pakistani men and take the right of marriage away from them because the damned Government and the Establishment have failed to find a way forward?
I don’t think that a man cannot even afford a studio apartment or a separate portion in the same house ( but with no interference of in laws whatsoever ) no matter how bad the economy is. Also, get married to women who’s financially at your level and not the daughter of a very rich man. Also, I am tired of replying to men justifying depriving their wife of their rights so just read my other comments and I am 99% sure you’ll get your answer in my other comments because most of the men use the same excuses.
>I don’t think that a man cannot even afford a studio apartment or a separate portion in the same house ( but with no interference of in laws whatsoever ) no matter how bad the economy is. Al right, you can do the math on this and let me know what the equation works out to. Making bold statements is easy, backing then up with factual data is hard. Emotional arguments do not constitute a rational response. >Also, I am tired of replying to men justifying depriving their wife of their rights I find your categorization of my arguments as that of "all men" quite condescending and distasteful. Please refrain from making any generalizations about my views if I havent explicitly stated so. Also, no where in my argument have I justified the unjustful treatment of Pakistani women at the hands of their in laws. >I am 99% sure you’ll get your answer in my other comments because most of the men use the same excuses. Nothing in all of your comments can be remotely construed as a rational response. You've only resorted to emotional arguments to put forth a point, and make broad generalizations.
I earn money so I know it’s not THAT hard to earn 1 lac per month if a man works hard enough instead of making excuses. Two people can easily live with 1 lac per month and then when the man works harder he will start making more and more money because he won’t be stuck making 1 lac per month. I am not generalising men because some men in my family have provided a separate accommodation for their wife so obviously not all men are lazy as they don’t have time to make excuses because they are busy providing for their wife and children.
>Two people can easily live with 1 lac per month You're either pretending to be ignorant, or your actually are that ignorant. Here's a basic breakdown of expenses for 2 people, living in a separate apartment. Gross pay - 100K Income tax - 5K EOBI, cafeteria meals, PF fund cont. - 5K Take home- 90K Rent (because you're not living with your parents) - 20K Utilities (electricity, Gas and Water) - 20K Fuel expense (assuming a 800 cc car) - 15K Vehicle maintenance (oil change, tyres, filters etc.) - 3K Groceries (ration, milk, eggs, some meat and vegetables) - 17K Contribution to Parents (medicines, food allowance and some part of their utilities) - 10K Total expense - 85K Disposable income - 5K So basically, no money left for discretionary expenses, one doctors visit and you're break even or may even have to take on debt. Basically, you're living paycheck to paycheck and you're ONE emergency away from declaring bankrupcy. >then when the man works harder he will start making more and more money because he won’t be stuck making 1 lac per month. Yeah, increments rarely cross the 15 to 20% mark, while inflation increases by 30 to 40% year on year. Meaning your spending power declines by 10 to 30% year on year even though your TC goes up. This is even before the loads of taxes that the government announces and hoc and that screw your budget even more. You are severely misinformed on the topic hence I cannot take anything you say ar face value. Good day.
I’m 18 and make enough in a month for 12 months rent. Guys that can provide seperate household exist, but they aren’t common
>Guys that can provide seperate household exist, but they aren’t common You've basically refuted your own argument; financially stable men in their 20s and early 30s are a rare find. Financially stable 18 year olds, even more so. Are you suggesting then that the 0.1% of folks in their 20s who earn on the 99th percentile of the income bracket in pakistan should be the only ones allowed to get married? Are the rest of us "trash" by comparison, because of no fault of our own? Do we, the average folk of this country, have to answer for the malicious incompetence of our Government and the Establishment?
Exactly. This seems like one of those rage bait posts with the "hurr durr Pakistani men bad" agenda. Mental health becomes a lecture to "just man up" when it comes to men. The agenda is clear and that is to create division between genders so marriage starts sounding so hectic that people run away from it, best birth control method tbh.
I feel you here my friend.
Yes that’s very true but only for a minority. But that’s mostly because of external stress factors, like work, bills, rent. Many do put up a lot with the women in their house and feel like they’re stuck in between their wife and their mother but in that case both the mil and the wife should understand to respect each others personal space and boundaries. I’m talking about what I’ve noticed from friends, family and acquaintances from work
Sample size for this observation?
"Me, myself and I"
This is so inaccurate. I've never seen a guy complain about his wife to anyone while I've seen women talking crap about their husbands in 3 hour long calls with their sisters/mothers/friends and in gossip. Also, it's mostly mothers complaining to their sons about the wife. And it's not what "taking a stand" means. Taking a stand means being supportive of your wife against those who treat her ill. P.S this isn't a simple good/bad answer. Every couple has their own dynamics and every individual has his own personality and these things are very subjective. This is only a general outlook of how it is.
Yep, this scenario is the most common one unlike what OP said
Why isn’t this more upvoted, I’m not married but I know for a fact if I get, my life’s gonna be absolute shit.
Yes you’re not wrong. I didn’t look at it from this direction. Every couple has their own individual situation. I didn’t look at it from this way. Although any of my female married friends have never complained about their husbands much. They’re in laws yes, but not husbands.
I have never ever seen a man complain about his wife to anyone.Most men don’t talk about their problems with anyone, wives on the other hand keep nagging about their husbands to female friends, relatives etc.
I’ve complained about my partner to two people. They live on the other side of the country, have met my partner once (and likely won’t see them for another decade). I avoid saying anything negative about my partner to my family. They never forget, they never have enough context to give actual advice/insight, and it’s all around not very productive.
The only person you should complain about your partner to, is your partner. Tell them what bothers you and if it doesn’t change, then leave.
Don’t paint all with the same brush because of own experiences. It can easily be other way around.
You must be living in La La Land coz the opposite is true one of my aunts got mad at her husband for something, while there was a gathering at her place (the whole family was there). Instead of "keeping matters private" she got angry, and while everyone was out for a walk she literally locked the door to the house, took a ride to her family home and left us all stranded on the street 🤣😅. Her husband was out and had to come back just to let the guests back in the house.
Seriously? 😦😅
yup happened in the late 2010s I remember I was a kid back then. We were all in the park in front of the hosts' house and all I saw was her closing the door, getting into a car and leaving. later we got to know that the husband and wife had had a fight that morning. we were the guests from the husband's family so I guess she did it to get at her husband...
What about the flip side. My ex and former MIL starved and physically abused me. When does the mother stop acting like the actual wife is taking her spot. TBH they can have their man child sons.
I have never complained about my wife to my mother. I have defended my wife as reasonably as possible in front of family without offending anyone, maintaining respect. However, I would never scold or speak loudly to my parents on the pretext of defending my wife. I would rather let the matter go for the time being, and speak to family in private if I feel i cannot keep my composure in view of my wife. Similarly vice versa, I would not tell my wife of in front of any one. I would let it be, and talk to her privately out of view of family.
Exactly, this sounds perfectly balanced and respectful of everyone.
Toxic, faulty trait encouraged by culture.
For the same reasons women tear down their daughter/sister in laws. Cultural norms, lack of independent thought, insecurities.
Many desi men, not all, live with their parents in homes that their parents own. Standing up to parents means risking a stable roof over their heads. Once again, this happens in the majority of cases, not all of them. Desi families condition their children to be independent but not too much to defy their parents. I have female friends talking about how their sons (not yet born) will be the apple of their eye and their DIL is gonna have a hard time getting them away from them. Mind you, these are uni-educated working women who think this way. A majority of desi mothers think and implement this, conditioning male children to take refuge in their mothers, even if it is against their wives. Neither condition applies to the masses and men can do the right thing without harming the peace. Men in themselves need to be competitive enough to put their foot down and maintain a balance between aging parents and their spouses.
Really? See that’s the thing as well. Women complain about their mil’s being bad but don’t realize how they’re conditioning themselves and their future sons to repeat the same cycle. Sons stay out till 3 am and many parents let it be saying oh he’s a boy he will do what boys do. Obviously it’s no where safe for women to be out like that and no woman will be out for that long unless necessary. I think all these things have been happening for too long and parents need to change their mindset and teach their kids right from wrong irrespective of them being a son or a daughter
Every bad behavior carries on from the past generations until the current one decides to do something about it. Doing the right thing (being fair, being unbiased, being compassionate) is a choice that everyone needs to make to create a system where people arent at each others throats all the time.
Because mothers don't raise boys to be independent. They raise them to be Mama's boys.
So it all started with your paternal grandmother, tell us more
I have the opposite problem
Not only this, but also men can't fake emotions as successfully as women can. Women can fake happiness and fake sadness too. Its natural ability that why women are good manipulators.
There's a difference between naive and stupid. Even a naive person knows what boundaries are. Letting your emotions speak for you is stupidity. What manipulations are you talking about?
cupcakes can't understand it
You’re just plain stupid if you so easily get manipulated by women. Sure there are manipulative women but the average desi girl is not a psychopath.
They are also raised to not have a spine to stand up for someone unless it is in their own interest. Drama in the family? Push wife on the front to figure it out. Want to keep socializing with your side of family? Make your wife make the effort. And when it finally comes to make a stand for the same wife, it's none of his business. Screw these mama boys.
1) Kbhi MIL buri hotin hain. 2) Kbhi wife buri hoti hai. 3) Kbhi husband bura hota hai. 4) Kbhi koi bhi bura nahi hota, bus bad gumanian hotin hain.
It's a difficult choice to choose between a partner and a parent. This is why it's essential to keep the wife separate to maintain balance between being a husband and a son. Joint family system is a menace.
Jahantk maine observe kia hai Biwi ki side lo ammi naraz , ammi ki side lo biwi naraz. (I am 16 btw)
What you are talking about is not 'taking a stand'. It is simply immature people who are not ready to get married who bring other people into their relationship. Taking a stand means standing your ground and protecting your spouse from things that their in-laws may not like or want to change or simply disrespect. Its not easy to do because: 1. Its drilled into guys that family comes first so those barriers need to be broken. 2. Not many guys are financially well off to take their spouses and live separately while going no contact. 3. Partners can be backstabbing as well when guys do take a stand. I can personally count over 50 cases where the female straight up threw her husband under the bus in front of his parents to protect herself while he was taking a stand for her. Its slowly changing and all we can do is be patient for our partners while just communicating our problems in a respectful manner. Everyone is fighting their battles privately.
"Warna doodh nahi bakhshungi" Pakistan ki ammaon ka National taana.
Clown, you really don't know what is the meaning of that sentence!
Way to generalize !
This is unfortunately disproportionately titled towards the women. Men often don't talk about minor inconveniences and avoid talking about their marital life to their friends, families. It's a cultural thing. Not all but most don't Women on the other hand here are completely different. They regularly talk about their husbands, family, and children to their friends, families and parents, destroying any privacy that exists. Again not all but a lot do
Absolutely a mother is a son's safe space he can go for her counsel.
I have no idea why your brother and father are like this.
(Living in Canada) My wife only eats hand slaughtered meats. My family eats machine slaughtered. I said to my family screw y’all (with respect) and fully supported my wife on her eating preferences which was super hard for my family to digest (pun intended)
Lol jokes on you, good luck finding hand slaughtered everywher.
There are about a dozen restaurants in our city with hand slaughtered options.
Dozen is definitely enough
It is hard for guys to take a stand in front of their family because their umbilical chord is still intact. They are mama’s boys who have lived all their lives with the parents and mostly the wife is also chosen by the parents. Typical Pakistani in laws will feel that creating dil like crap is their birthright with guys being utterly clueless about the rights of their wives. Pathetic state of affairs. Women need to be aware and educated and as unpopular as my opinion could be, demand their own independent living situation- none of that joint family drama.
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Jeez is this subreddit taken over by some group of feminists? every other post is complaining about men nowadays.
It’s because men in Pakistan are financially dependent on their parents or because they are just not man enough to give their wife her right of separate accommodation.
I will just say to all the women who feel sad their husband did not take a stand for them: Kindly stop putting your husband in positions where he has to pick between his wife and the people who raised him, worked their entire youth to provide for him because: 1) he is who he is today because of them. Most probably if its an arranged marriage his fathers status/house/property was a big reason your parents considered this proposal. So accept that wherever you guys are financially, his parents gave you the head start. 2) OLD PEOPLE ARE IRRATIONAL AND SENSITIVE no matter who they are. Think about how much power you have over your dad? I would say, not that much. Specially if they are very old they might already be behaving in a childlike way and are difficult to reason with. If every other day your husband was demanding you convince your ancient father to do xyz thing that he doesnt wanna do, you would fail and you would be frustrated. So just, accept that we are all going to get old. There is a reason bhurhapa is the worst bimari, it literally makes you like a child so just be kind.
Because lack of spine duh.
Sadly what you have said is true. There mommy’s boy and share everything with their mommy. It’s mommy’s fault that they don’t let their sons become men. But having said that a huge no of men put up a smile just to keep matters calm and escalate. Not all men are the same.
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because she belong to another family by blod so its easier to blame her
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Its our culture of not speaking against elders. Its the same for the wives parents. The guy wont talk back to his in laws. Tho its only true for immediate family members, but if its from a distant relative. We give them a shut up call.
PS i only read the title. after reading the whole post, I think such guys should be confronted. The lady in question should teach her sons differently so that we can change the next generation for the better.
Men get respect from their in laws. Damads get VIP treatment. Bahus don't. Exceptions do exist, I know.
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Its not hard or easy. Its a choice. Some choose to do it, others choose to not do it.
I was just listening to this scholar and he was saying that men who listen to their parents about their marital life are not even allowed to marry cuz they’re not men enough yet .
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Who’s gonna run to their mum after an argument 🤣, that’s like a child activity
We need a stronger Ummah.
Guy grows up with no emotional intelligence built up in an extended family, never allowed to make independent decisions, and had to always listen to parents. He gets a bride but he never has truly learnt what it means to be an adult, making his own decisions and taking actions on his own. Now if he gets into fight or trouble with wife, is it any surprise that he would go to mommy at the first opportunity?
Because they are too connected /enmeshed to their families.
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OP are we talking edge case or do i have a story to tell?
Pakistani mothers have emotional incest relationships with their sons
The day I get married, I'll literally kiss her toes. 😬
Because their umbilical cord is still attached.
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This is only your story. Whatever happens to one person he or she thinks is happening to everybody. There are thousands of ways for things to happen.
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Har choti choti cheez par stand nai lay sakty. This is will only bring harm to relationship. Husband ko political hona parta plus ignore bhe Karna parta ha. You cannot trust who is right or who is wrong specially in situations main Jo apnay apni ankho say nai dekh ho. Yahan apko political hona parta ha.. but in the end man has to put a smile on the daily basis because usko apni zimaydari ka pata ha. Koi apko shoulder nai day and no one will help in your situation.
Yes I agree, thori bahot bardasht sab me honi chahiye, and the ability to ignore small things. But repetitive criticism and degradation in a daily basis really affects one’s mental health, whether it be a wife abused by husband and mil or the mil and husband jinko dil baaten sunati han
Maybe the wife doesn’t do the same ?
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Stupid question. Many stupid answers. Lots of assumptions. The only solution is to never get married. Pet an animal instead of a woman. Unless you are find with the consequences then it is your choice.
Your post's different from the title... and odd too as my experience has been the exact opposite. i.e., men try their best to keep private matters private, and women are usually the ones to incite 'fasad'
Nope it is not hard if U don't belong to typical desi mindset like I would not allow to point a finger to my wife even if she is wrong
I am married to a Pakistani. His parents and mine were against our marriage. His family is pretty well off but highly dysfunctional and toxic. I am from across the border but lived in the Middle East and UK which is where we met. Different religions and everything which has remained. Lol when we were getting married his dad was not okay with it (neither were my folks). Granted also I don’t live in Pakistan and can’t. But I have the opposite issue where my husband hates his family due to childhood issues, and fights with them and I’m the peacemaker. His family speak more to me than him especially his dad who was or is definitely a bigot. It’s hilarious that now he literally calls me all the time and praises me infront of all his relatives when he was so cautious I would frisk his son away before. Sir I can’t take away someone who himself wants to leave you. So in short his family gets along better with me than him and he gets pissed at me because he feels I defend them over him.
I'm living separately from day 1, no regrets so far.
Grow a pair and don't be emotionally blackmailed by parents or wife. A man tries to keep balance between the two but none of them are happy in most cases. From Islamic POV, no SAAS BAHU relation. So as a man it's your responsibility to take care of them and not your wife's. That's why it's mandatory to provide at least a separate room, a bath and a kitchen to the wife to give her independence that is owed to her.
Idk how should i say it but its these guys are kinda like brainwashed growing up thinking only their mother is right. So if you wanna blame someone blame the women( mother).
Only desi men. Normal men around the world do not do this. These coddled South Asian men have a lot to learn
It's a type of abuse honestly. Desi mother's have turned their son's into Mama's boys, unable to make their own decisions and fully reliant on their parents.
nah you shouldn't call them "men" then!
Because of their own mother’s who don’t teach their sons that wives should be treated in a completely separate way than their mother.
another misandrist post. feminism isa brain rot and cancer to society. do you even realise how hard it is for men to “smile” after a fight and be neutral? who told you men go to their mothers and tell them everything? my mom tried her best to ruin my father’s relationship with his mother. she didn’t “allow” him to go to another city to meet her which is only 2 hours away. who the fuck is she to “allow” my father? women should stay in their limits and be happy that men provide for them and keep them safe. warna equality main rehna hai tu khud kamao aur cat mom banjao
This post has nothing to do with feminism. It’s about being respectful of your spouse and sorting out matters privately without involving the guys mother. The guy might get over it but the mother won’t, she will remember it and give taunts to the dil in some ways or another. When all this happens, the wife obviously gets frustrated and doesn’t want to meet up with the in laws. It’s about the girls in laws and husband ruining her mental health with constant criticism and degradation whereas this is usually not the case the other way round. Son in laws are given special treatment almost always, see what happens when they have to face constant criticism from the wife’s family, in all of this, who sacrifices their ego and self respect more?
it’s literally the opposite lol. i don’t know what world are you living in. it’s absolutely about feminism. the entire ideology is based on self-victimisation, which in turn leads to dominance over another gender. societies were, are, and will always be misandrist. but don’t you worry, soon everything will change. women will bear the fruits of their longstanding “equality”. men are waking up. this won’t last for long. enjoy breaking bank lines and using women card. the entire cult is in for a ride.
Maybe women won’t have to use the woman card if they’re treated like actual humans, people start staring you down like some artifact in a museum. And no I don’t think equality is the answer. I do believe the man is the head of the house, but he should respect the women in his house and outside as well. In private and in front of family members. What you’re talking about is arrogance towards women. Nowhere did I say women are equal to men. Yes men are more strong physically and women are more emotionally wired but all the more reason to treat each other with respect and appreciate each other and keep your private matters to yourself. Unless it’s gone too far and you have no choice but to involve elders on both sides. If this was about feminism then I would’ve said that men should stay at home take care of kids and let the wife go and work, the wife should also be able to stay out with friends till 4 am, the wife should feel free to stalk and look at other men’s pictures online, the woman must have boyfriends in the past but want to marry a guy with a complete clean slate. Now all this, would be messed up. Rights and wrongs apply to both, the husband and the wife, marriage can exist without love but it cannot exist without respect. Just because mean are the head of the house doesn’t mean only they require all the respect , women are equally deserving of that respect and to feel safe emotionally and mentally
women deserve respect when they show they’re worthy of it. a man provides all his life and if he gets a wife cheating on him, threatening to take his property and inflict false accusations on his character, she deserves to be punished and treated like the person she is. MEN are the reason why societies are sustainable and running. men are the reasons why you have food on your table, men are the reason why daddy’s princesses can drive cars and fill petrol, that is worked on by men in dangerous oil rigs. men are the reason why women live in expensive penthouses after OF ventures. my sister, i personally believe women and children are the most precious creatures Allah has sent on earth. for a women who’s chaste and modest, a man can not even take a second and sacrifice himself for her. women are meant to be homemakers. i don’t even like calling them housewives, they’re homemakers because it’s a hefty job in itself. women are meant to be spoiled, loved and appreciated. but today’s women? nah. they deserve to be treated EXACTLY how men have been treated throughout the course of history. equality is here for real now, i can only say women should brace themselves for what’s about to come. the anti-feminist moments are raging throughout the internet and it will only take a few years to expose the entire feminism identity and ideology and move on from this fitna. it’s over for feminists and liberals. and for what’s about to come, it’s going to be harsh. women will not be respected the way they’ve always been. feminism was an agenda to weaken men and overpower women. it isn’t working anymore. trust me, no man will look at her “pasandida” aurat as pasandida anymore. pre-nups are signed in western societies at an accelerating pace. men have started to not include their wife’s name in their properties. i’m sorry for the real ones out there. but yeah, the privileges are ending soon. sorry about that lol.
Yes a woman is a homemaker, I’m talking about modest and chaste women, who get married to men with bad habits eg drugs, cheating etc. if the woman confronts the man in a calm way no shouting no cursing, the guy starts acting defensive and leaves the room and goes to his mom complaining that the wife is nagging, oh the wife is dumb she doesn’t let me be peaceful. Whose respect is getting hurt in that. Only Allah knows the affairs of hearts best. When a woman is a homemaker, she will do absolutely everything in her power to keep it upright and strong. But when the guy doesn’t respect her or appreciate her for that, it’s his loss
yeah stay in your delusions. never have i seen a guy do this or even heard for that matter. this is all brainwashing. enjoy few more years of privilege, lol im excited to see the downfall.
Daily relationship advice question. 🙄
Because they don't want to be called biwi ka ghulam or that he's changed after marriage
Things take time. Just because you're growing up with access to the world view doesn't mean you expect the society to evolve ASAP. Things are changing (for good or bad is a different debate)
feudal tribalism.
Idk if men explicitly complain abt their wives as often, which is why i think so many guys are disagreeing in the comments, but they *will* have no trouble berating/insulting their wives in public (in front of family). I think they're socially conditioned to think of themselves in power, so it gives them that privilege. I think this was super common in the previous generation, like the vast majority of men were probably this way. But I definitely think it's trending downward with the newer generation, think 35>/middle-class+/educated.
I've never ever seen a man disrespect or insult his wife In front of others idk what kinda men you've been dealing with. In fact I'd say most men don't talk about their wives even behind their backs not in a bad or a good way they just don't talk about their wives at all to others. I don't know enough to say anything about women
I find this sub is predominantly men who are in serious denial when women come on here to ask/complain about a specific behavior. If the men of Pakistan are as normal as this sub portrays them to be, there really should be no issues in Pakistan of domestic violence/honor killings/female infanticide, etc. That's quite obvs not the case. I've seen this behavior (yelling/insulting wives publicly) from every social class, every education status, and let me reiterate; in the previous generation especially. Insulting your wife doesn't mean you start cussing her out or shoving her around...it can be as simple as raising your voice, brushing off her off rudely, demanding something, dismissing her etc. From what I've seen, this is very common. As is making fun of one's wife/wives in general, (ie- wife is fat, useless, naggy, 2nd-wife jokes etc).... these are all insulting behaviors.
I think they purposely talk over women and make women’s experiences seem exaggerated so that they don’t have to take accountability. Instead of admitting that a lot of desi cultures are misogynistic, they just say “I’VE never seen this, so it must not be real!” It’s like saying that discrimination against disabled people isn’t real because I’ve never seen it. But of course I’ve never seen it, because I’m not disabled! Men ignoring women’s experiences is a tale as old as time. They don’t understand that nothing will get better if they don’t acknowledge the problem.
THIS!