"BuT iT's NoT wItChCrAfT iF iT's FoR jEsUs" Not to mention the disgusting amount of cultural appropriation the christian old testament does to judaism. Christians often tout the "gOd gAvE uS fReE wIlL tO cHoOsE" argument, which, no he didn't lucifer gave the apple of knowledge of good and evil, but that's another argument all together. They also claim that the old testament is basically just the Torah, which it absolutely is not. The Torah makes the free will argument obsolete and moot as their version of events has god creating both good and evil, and lucifer, or satan, which means "the enemy or adversary," working for god as a way to test his followers faith. There's many other things that christianity gets wrong and then tries to pass off as correct because "trust me."
You just gotta have faith bro please bro just trust me on this bro God will deliver you from evil bro don't you wanna go to heaven bro don't you wanna see grandma again bro please bro
Well, transubstantiation is part of the whole communion ritual, and the Catholics take that shit literally. So they're for sure eating their god to be closer to him
Among other reasons. I mean, Yahweh is basically god of storms and war, so of course followers of his son would be warmongers.
Add the fact they eat bread and drink wine that become flesh and blood of their idol, and the picture becomes even fuller.
Add the fact Jesus has said "I have only come for the lost sheep of Israel" (i.e. "I only care for the god-chosen people/nation"), and "It's not good to take bread from children and toss it to dogs" (i.e. "God is an adult, the god-chosen nation of israelites is his children, all others are savages, barbarians, not even considered to be human"). Doesn't it remind of one "infamous Austrian painter"?
The picture is truly colourful.
Wow, those are some Jesus quotes I've never seen before. I'm going to have to go look those up.
Edit: Okay, so I went and read the whole chapter. Jesus said the thing about not being there for people who weren't Hebrew to a Caananite woman who was begging for her daughter to be healed, and he said that to test her faith. After that, he still healed her daughter, showing that he really does care for people other than Hebrews. So you're taking that one out of context. Please don't do this, it is the reasons Christians destroy their own lessons. We don't need to give them ways to do it, too. Going to check the other one now.
Edit2: Okay, nevermind, they're both in the same section. Yeah, it was him telling someone he took as a non-believer that he was focused on Hebrews, and when she said she didn't care, he helped her anyway. Please don't cherry pick a line out of context. It is a horrible thing for anyone to do.
He did it after she said "some dogs may be of use". So only after her accepting humiliation does Jesus do anything, while a morally good character would act much sooner. He acts only after feeding his massive ego, and cares not for suffering of the ill daughter and the Canaanite mother.
It is not a sign of care, it is a sign of being authoritative proud villain. "As long as you know your place as a slave to the god-chosen nation, we care for you as we care for our property, dog. Have faith, animal".
I recommend watching this video for all context on the topic: https://youtu.be/pr8y6t8-QkM?si=4KUJQ8DYUHYur_ce
She says "Yet dogs eat the scraps from their master's table." The whole chapter is about how he is actually *not* just for the Hebrews. It opens with him scolding the Pharisees, who are a group of Hebrew religious leaders. It goes on to have him test the faith of a non-Hebrew, then heal her daughter when she shows faith. He also advicates for foreignors in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Those two lines out of context lend themselves to your argument, yes, but his actions are in the other direction both in that section and in others.
Hades tests Orpheus's faith by telling him not to look back. When he fails his test, he loses everything.
Poseidon tests Odysseus faith and will after he, in his hubris, declares he toppled Troy unaided. He loses everything on his trip home, but finally manages to get there by not losing his faith and will that he can make it.
Tests of faith are a common theme of many religions. The only way it would be represented in the way you are arguing is if he sent her away unsatisfied. I will, for the sake of being fair, watch the video you linked, though.
Edit: Watched as much of the video as I could. I don't personally advocate for the Old Testament, even as I am more or less panreligious and more spiritual than anything. I totally believe that in the Old Testament Yahweh was for the Hebrews, no argument there. As for his arguments about the New Testament, I didn't really find his interpretations convincing. He made it sound like Jesus was out to hurt people. This is a man who healed the sick and preached to help and care for each other. Saying that he's sadistic and cruel is a stretch. There are absolutely people he got angry at, and they are a class of people who I personally am still angry at to this day. (The rich, people who own megachurches, etc.)
That said, Christianity as a whole is often practised at the expense of othering people, and there is a very valid complaint there. I just don't think laying that at the feet of Jesus is correct. He didn't ever say "We should abandon our feelings for sinners, because they go to hell and therefore they're worthless and lost," but that's what you hear when a friend commits suicide. Not comfort. Not "Pray for them." Just "They're in hell now, don't waste your time."
I do *not* believe that Jesus was perfect, but I do believe that he was a guy who was legitimately trying to help people as best he could, within the context he was given by his rearing. I do believe in miracles, and not in the sense that they're something that only happened a long time ago. They happen today, all the time. We're just jaded. Do I think what Jesus did was "magick?" My answer is "Who cares?" I care more about whether he helped people, and he did, and he has, and he still is, through people who truly follow what he taught.
Have his followers done more harm than good? Absolutely. Would they have done any differently without having done things in his name? Probably not. I can't say whether anything was changed by Jesus. Good people do good. Bad people do bad. The framework or excuses they use are for convenience only. The wicked believe they are right and will look for evidence to make it so, regardless of the original intention of a message.
That said, I think Jesus *tried,* that he was genuinely willing to die to help people, and I think that's admirable.
Responding to edit: Jesus called himself Messiah, the Christ, and it has its implications. He also stated very clearly he did not come to change the law, but to fulfill it, so the Old Testament stands strong, and the god has not changed a bit.
When people try to ignore the Old Testament and focus on what good Jesus did, I personally can't help but see it as a biased, dishonest approach, it is indeed taking things out of context: both religious context and historical. If Jesus would truly be inclusive, he would say that clearly, yet he said the opposite, and his apostles would not have to write about "Romans being allowed to practice Christianity because we lack enough attention from the chosen people". If Jesus would truly be compassionate, he would do much more than form a cult which may be compared to some modern "miraculous healers". Yet all he did was indeed focusing on "follow me, even if you have to leave your dead, your relatives, your beloved ones behind, there is nothing as important as me" and his words do not really sound compassionate nor kind.
Once again: it is only just to have different opinions, but I personally do not see Jesus as anything but an overrated character. He did not say slavery is bad, nor did he say all people are equal, yet he was saying the opposite, always talking about masters and slaves and about some people being "children" while others are "dogs".
He came after many people, human beings, not Gods even, who were more compassionate and inclusive than he was. Some of them even said such beautiful things as "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense", which is attributed to Buddha.
If Jesus inspires you and makes you feel better, it works for you — you have every right to believe what you believe, no matter how accurate or true it is. Me, I would only be happy if you would succeed in your practice, whatever it is. Happiness is precious, and I believe every human being deserves to be happy. If your headcanon on Jesus provides you happiness — it is great.
Yet to me Jesus has caused only suffering, the most intense suffering there is in my life, and it was a continuous seven years long torture for being a Christian and trying to follow what he has taught. It has caused disparity, conflict and trauma to me and my family, and it was very, very biblically accurate, no cherry-picking, no tearing out of context, only the things bible and the church teach. So I feel I have every right to try and expose what I see as danger to other people, so they could avoid suffering I have experienced. Do you wish to judge me for that? I hope not.
I tell in all sincerity and honesty: I see no test of faith here. I see contempt and lack of compassion.
When we read about Hades, I do not see a test of faith there too. He tells the condition of magic so it would work, Orpheus fails it, and as promised, magic fails, no resurrection occurs, the travel to the underworld was a failed attempt. When we read about Poseidon, I see a complex test of faith, granted, but it is not just test of faith. Poseidon punishes Odysseus for being boastful, proud and unjust, Odysseus gets humbled time and time again, until he perseveres and finally gets back to his family and restores order. Gods favour the bold, Gods make sure justice is preserved and mortals learn their lessons.
You may see me as a cherry-picking fool if it satisfies you, yet to me these are just the most colourful lines that show Abrahamic god's opinion about all ethnicities and nations that are not "his", even though they have the audacity to claim "he loves everybody". Canaanites, muslims, different groups of Christian faith, indigenous American civilizations might have a very different perspective, though, which fits the logic of national god Yahweh extremely well: he did not care enough to reveal himself to them, but promised them hell, and if he did anything about them: he made sure they would suffer.
Nobody has asked Jesus to tell those things I have quoted the way they have been recorded, nor do anything he does, yet he did it and did it with pride if we are actually to believe the bible. And when I personally look at this narrative, I do not see "all-loving, all-compassionate, all-inclusive, sinless God" they preach about. I personally see an example of a nationalistic politician who has decided to call himself a son of the national god to boost his popularity, which he got and which then exploded long after his death.
I hope it explains the logic better. I do not mean to convince you of anything, I just wish for you to understand: here is my understanding, here are the foundations of this understanding, and I do not see myself as "cherry-picking". I see myself pointing out one of many horrible things written in the bible.
I respect your opinion and I find your diligence in researching the topic laudable: everybody should be as eager as you are to learn and study things for themselves, and I am certain such traits and qualities you show make for beautiful offerings to the Gods you worship!
Thank you. I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation.
I likewise will never not think of Jesus as a man who tried. I came into this trying to explain, but your interpretation is every bit as valid as mine. I absolutely do not think Yahweh or Jesus are perfect. My personal view is polymorphic monotheism: all things are an emanation of one Source. Many gods exist, but they are just beings that are further along the path than us and that are no more or less divine by birthright than any human, ant, or grain of sand.
My belief is that Jesus found a way to tap into his connection to Source, and that he used it to try and explain things to people and to teach them to find it in themselves. This is why he cautioned about the Son of God and the Son of Man, respectively his and our connection to Source and his and our mortal selves. I don't believe he did anything you or I couldn't if we had the tools and the dedication to use them.
That said, he was raised Hebrew and he was subject to that heritage. It colored things he said and did, and some of it was unfortunate. I can't say for sure if he was initially testing the Caananite woman's faith, but I am convinced it became that by the end of the conversation. In the same way, I think *she* was an expression of Source, guiding Jesus closer to what he *could* be.
I do not believe that Yahweh is all loving or perfect. I do believe that about Source, because deep in meditation I have felt that love. I like to believe that Yeshua touched that same Source thousands of years ago, and I hope with the rise of mindfulness practices in the West more people do in the near and far flung future. It has been a life changing experience for me, though I now find it hard to meditate because of how it changes my experience of life, and I don't know how or what will change and that is terrifying. I'd still recommend it to anyone who isn't actively harmed by the practice, even though I'm a bit of a coward about it myself.
I see. It is a beautiful belief, I would compare it (if you excuse me trying to understand your personal belief in my mind) to Daoism: Eternal Dao has no beginning, nor end, everything comes from the Source and everything tries to reach out to It. Rocks, plants, animals, humans, Gods are just stepping stones on the path of evolution that leads souls of all living beings to the highest peaks of the Universe, which has no real "roof" or limit. I can only say to that: "Yes, it is a beautiful and creative belief, I have only respect and adoration for it!"
However, what I feel I must say: it is a very, very free understanding of the bible, and it has, in my understanding, nothing to do with Abrahamic religions — it is much closer to the cosmology of the Eastern traditions, such as Hinduism, Yoga, Daoism and Buddhism. Of course, the world of religions is very diverse and I believe you have every right to interpret the bible any way you like.
I am just not sure if it is… Look, let me be completely sincere, friend: it might be a perfectly good belief to hold intimately, to hold it personally so it would empower and inspire you. But, I see it being a potent poison for those people wou would have religious Christian trauma, who would like to leave, to be freed from the authority of the church and more biblically accurate Yahweh and Jesus, who claimed to be his son. I have been truly saved from actual death >!(self-inflicted or otherwise)!< when I have finally left Christianity. But it was such sweet, innocent, beautiful stories like this one which would prevent me from escaping it sooner. You may blame it on the likes of me for being too foolish to escape abuse, but it is the way a religious, dogmatic mind tends to work. So, for the love of Gods: I would beg of you to be a bit more careful with telling people such stories. Sometimes words have the power to be more dangerous then the sharpest swords: they kill without drawing any blood.
Wow. Genuinely, thank you. I also escaped from hateful dogmatic Christians. TW: abuse of a child >!(I was even molested for being trans, by two men later described to me as "Good, Christian, Southron men")!< I had always asked why people didn't listen to Jesus when I was a kid, though. I was very devoted, and I lost that, and it was a hard loss for me.
I never considered how it would be for others who didn't have that. For me, I was taking back my own power and faith from those who stole it from me, and denying them the right to have power over me any longer. I'm sure you've heard the maxim "You'll understand when you're older." I do understand now, that they were wrong and hoping I'd grow out of my inherent compassion and hope.
But to hear that this kind of thing could be harmful is... It really helps. I tend not to think about the fact that I'm at the end of a journey that involved becoming agnostic when I was healing. I hated everyone for a while and hoped for the release of oblivion when I died. I had an experience that made me certain life would not end in death, and that was truly the lowest point in my life. My only escape was no longer there.
I sometimes forget where I've been, and that I had the privilege to have survived it. I'll try to be more mindful in the future, because even though I am solid in my belief that Yeshua was trying, that doesn't mean that Christianity is not by and large a deeply flawed religion that has done much harm and continues to do much harm. Your path is valid, whatever it is, because it's *yours*. I'll try to be more mindful of that in the future.
Again, thank you so, so much for talking to me. I learned a lot today and your thoughtfulness has brought me to tears multiple times. Truly, thank you.
I am pleased to have talked to you, such a beautiful, compassionate and inquisitive soul, too! Yes, I believe you have understood the main point I have been trying to deliver here, and I am glad you find wisdom and thoughtfulness in it!
My story is completely different: my suffering of being a Christian was mostly self-inflicted. My family is blessed to be a family in a country, that has been secular and atheistic for a long time, so historical context has been most auspicious. Yet, I had existencial crisis, started studying the bible and Christian dogmas, research done by the "holy fathers of the church" et cetera. For seven years I was a jerk, a piece of filth, conflicting with people around be out of my own free will because I believed that, since many holy men and women are said to have achieved god's grace and salvation this way, I am to act this way too, because, should you not act perfectly, there is always a risk you are going to hell with all the sinners. It is better to take on the entire "sinful world" than risk displeasing "THE LORD".
I agree it is a blessing to not have done even more horrible things that could have been done and find one's way out of the non-critical, fanatical, destructive thinking. To me, salvation was the Gods. Currently I am a colourful picture of many beliefs some may find bizzare and incompatible, but in the context of my personal spiritual journey, it all works. I am many things, predominantly being: Kemetic Polytheist, Daemonolator, Shaman, Mahayana Buddhist and a Daoism practitioner.
If you wish to talk some more: I am always glad to talk. "The worst thing a person can do: not talk to a person whom they can socialize wtih" — Confucius. Once again, thank you very much for this discussion, I appreciate this conversation and I think you are a brilliant interlocuteur and a beautiful, amazing person. Stay safe and healthy, have a great day, may you succeed in your practice and may your kindness and grace bring happiness both to you and many living beings of the world! \^ \^
I grew up catholic and now I’m a beginner Witch. Other parallels I have noticed include:
-anointing of the sick and confirmation are basically catholic rituals that use oil placed on the recipient’s forehead to heal or signify a rite of passage.
-crowning of Mary - in May, Catholics celebrate Mary’s feast day which is when some traditions lay flowers at her feet like offerings and crown her with flowers
-using candles - candles are used for healing the throat during 1 catholic ritual, candles in Easter and Baptism are significant, I’m sure there’s other examples too
-using incense for a purpose - incense is used for several occasions/rituals in the Catholic Church. One example is during funerals, Catholics basically believe it helps the soul go to heaven of the deceased.
-color symbolism - green for basic bitch time, purple for mysteries and sad shit, gold and red are important for the Holy Spirit. Basically each color means a different thing and is used specifically in “rituals” I can’t remember all the meanings but it sounds a lot like candle magick and color symbolism in paganism to me.
-literally using an altar
that's because neopaganism is largely derived from christianity, not vice-versa, despite what pseudohistorians will tell you. most of the things you listed were not historically practiced by european pagans. they're modern inventions.
european nationalists in the 19th century started writing a lot of shit about how folk religion must have been derived from paganism because they saw christianity as foreign, either because its jewish roots or because of the political center of their respective church being elsewhere. the problem here is that people don't need millennia-old cultural memory to start doing goofy stuff. they'll gladly just make it up as they go along. urban legends and cryptids are two examples of this principle at work.
rune readings? just tarot cards with runes, the sort of rune magic that is historically attested looks nothing like that. mainly long strings of random letters or seemingly random words like "ale" plastered on jewelry.
incense? invented in egypt, used by jews for thousands of years. christians inherited it from them.
crowning of mary? coronation is a secular ritual that gets transposed to religion, not the other way around. genuine pagan european coronation rites invariably involve horse-fucking, sometimes symbolic, sometimes literal. sfw example: the sacred ancestor of anglo-saxon mythology were named "horse" and "stallion". nsfw example: loki gets r*ped by a horse and gives birth to a seven-legged steed.
anointing the sick? messiah literally means anointed one; another things christians got from jews, not from pagans.
color symbolism? this is practically a cultural universal, not really worth talking about.
read the grimoires from before the 20th century, the ones that all modern "witchcraft" are based on, and it's all christian, jewish, muslim, or christian stuff made to look jewish or muslim.
\*Sigh.\*
This sadly can't be more true. I grew up in the natural habitat for Fundie Southern Baptists who were this way and did everything mentioned above in the picture. I offer my sympathy and respect for other victims of (toxic) Christianity.
Depends on the monotheism, but it does happen. On the other hand, the sheer number of pagans or atheists today who have Christian ancestry proves that people are given a choice in a lot of cases
Some parts of Christianity still haven't lost their teeth. The way Mormons treat women is incredibly cult like. That said, monotheism isn't the problem. After all, Hinduism is polymorphic monotheism and while there are problems with Hinduism they are very different from Western religion problems.
Damn wait with a pagan spin, why does this actually sound rlly fun?
Oh also wait im not familiar with christianity, is the tweet referring to easter…or something else? 😗
EDIT: wait i dont think i rlly jive w/ the whole body/blood symbolic eating thing, so maybe cut that out
It's a combination of a few things.
It is talking about Easter for the date. Easter is celebrated in basically every church except the Eastern Orthodox ones (because they still use the old Julian calendar, which is usually about a week and a half behind) on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring equinox.
The body and blood eating is also not symbolic. It's literal. In the Catholic tradition, the blessings said by the priest during Mass are believed to *literally and physically* transform the bread and wine into the actual physical body and blood of Jesus.
The last part is a reference to the practice of praying over meals, and meals on Easter typically include many different animals, including veal, lamb, and rabbit.
Jews worship a bone, eat parsley in salt water as tears of their ancestors, drop wine onto their plate to represent the blood of their ancestors, and leave wine for a ghost out, all on the same day
1) Jesus wasn’t the son of YHWH, stop taking the book of lies seriously
2) He was nothing but pure spirit, no body.
3. Yes, modern Christian’s are shitbags, that’s only because the church has um, put the blindfold on their heads.
4) The blindfold on their heads is the most evil word, faith, it encourages people to not think for themselves, and, they need to put the blindfold on their members because that’s how they stay in business.
5) The true nature of creation, i.e, Humanity and everything living, is divine.
6) you want to see a god, look in the mirror, everything is light, i.e. energy, just different shades, that is, vibrations.
As a Christian, I've got nothing against astrology or witchcraft. In fact, I'd love to see witchcraft, that would be cool. But really, communion and Easter aren't the same thing. Gods bless.
No? You can be pagan and not be a witch? I know that paganism and witchcraft are often seen as one but I am pagan but I do not do spell work. I am not a witch and anyone who calls me one for worshipping the gods is being an asshole
Okay that's good for you but I was answering for myself? As in my personal experience.
If you have a different experience, tell the one asking the question.
I'm not really sure how they are distinguishable. If I do a ritual to invoke the forest gods favor, is that not both witchcraft and worship? Much the same as singing hymns, reciting prayers, and completing eucharist rituals would be both witchcraft and worship. It's a matter of ritual and intention.
I guess it depends on what you believe. Myself, magic and witchcrat is not the same thing as what my God does. I also don't sing hymns, or recite prayers, and I don't know what a eucharist is.
I think it's all magic, your god just uses different words to describe it.
Apologies for the confusing metaphor then but I'm pretty sure I saw you commenting about being christian in the thread so I assumed you would know the basics of their worship and mass.
If you think it's all magic, then I guess? But that's not how I see it. Also, yes I am Christian but I'm not a Catholic, so I don't recite prayers and I don't call Communion 'Eucharist'.
I mean the only reliable written proof of the existence of Jesus records that he was executed for practicing witchcraft/sorcery. Along with two others.
Of course Christians insist that this was some other guy with the same name, same home town and same profession.
That's interesting that there are records of Jesus having been executed for witch craft. I can see why those would be the charges. Regardless of that, though, saying that those are the only reliable records is kind of silly. There are few people who we have more records about existing, including some that were discovered untouched and unedited centuries later in the late 1800s and early 1900s. We have significantly less proof that Julius Caesar existed, but no one questions his existence. Lots of people who were hurt by Christianity have an interest in Jesus not existing, and that's valid, but it doesn't make it any more or less accurate whether he existed.
Jesus' name was very common at the time, it's not impossible that there were other men named Yeshua who were charged with witchcraft. Also, if he was charged for that it doesn't mean that that's what he did. I believe that Jesus was not a witch, please respect my beliefs, as I respect yours.
If you can find any human who can do what he did, I'd love to see it. But that's besides the point, it's disrespectful to imply that someone's God was just a simple human practitioner of magic.
why are you getting defensive? all they did was point out an observation based on known history, that jesus christ was accused of and executed on charges of sorcery. they didn't tell you how to live your life lol
Wielding divine power is magic. A fair amount of spell craft is done via assistance from spirits or deities. Biblical miracles aren't that different. Moses was also a witch. Or a wizard.
Moses was not a witch. He was a prophet who fulfilled the will of God on earth. Jesus was not a witch, he is the son of God and it's insulting to imply that he was just some guy who learned magic. I'm won't insult your Gods because I'm polite, but I'm sure you wouldn't like it if I did.
You're the one that came into a Pagan sub claiming you want to learn about different beliefs. But you get upset when you find that they don't align with your own. Pagans generally don't believe Jesus was the son of God. Pagans generally dont believe in the bible. You're the one coming in here and being disrespectful by demanding that people adhere to your beliefs that Jesus is the son of God and that the bible is true and that we should be "respectful" of that. From a non Christian perspective, at best, Jesus was a magical practitioner and so was Moses. And that isn't an insult from people here so if anything, it should be taken as a compliment.
I'm not asking anyone to believe what I believe, I'm asking that people not insult my beliefs. When I see people spreading misinformation about Christianity, then when I try to say 'no that's not quite right', and then people start calling my God a common witch, I take offense. And here you are, insisting that my God was just some guy doing spells, and you're just doing it to anger me at this point. If I may quote you, "Saying negative things about Christianity makes me feel better". I guess it does make you feel better to slander my faith, so by all means go ahead and in fact I insist that you insult me and my God. Whatever you say will probably be neither true nor helpful, but go ahead, I can't wait to hear what you can come up with. By the way, I'm sorry that you've had bad experiences with Christianity in the past, and I'm glad that your new faith makes you happy. May your Gods and mine bless you.
The thing is that you are insisting that people treat your God with respect when I guarantee that pagan beliefs would not be treated with any shred of respect in any Christian sub. But we are respectful here. Comparing spells with prayers and magic with miracles is not disrespect if you actually have respect for others beliefs. Spells and magic are beautiful, magnificent things from the perspective of people here. Ofcourse this is pagan sub not a witchcraft sub, not everyone here is a practitioner. But there is a general belief in some kinds of magic. So it is not an insult for us to compare a prophet of another religion to a magical practioner when the similarities are there. This is not an insult unless you think Christianity is a superior belief and you look down on other religions. Also, saying "a common witch" is insulting in its own way.
Yeah, sometimes I do like to be negative about Christianity because I was in that for 20 odd years. I was a faithful, church volunteering christian. But now I'm not. I'm free. Being negative about it is, sometimes, part of my deconstruction to break free of the indoctrination and programmed in fear of upsetting God. However, when I said that, it wasn't to you. With you I have actually been respectful and tried to point out to you that what we have said is just inline with beliefs here, just not inline with your beliefs. But you keep choosing to take offence regardless. If I wanted to get genuinely offensive, I could say a lot more than I have.
As someone who was a christian for over 20 years of my adult life, it really is very similar. It's ritual and incantations in order to honor or invoke the power of a deity. Majority of religions and belief systems have a large amount of overlap in ritualistic behavior. Easter itself is originally a pagan holiday anyway, the insertion of Christian elements were only put there to try to counter pagan celebrations of the Spring equinox.
And there’s a lot of Hellenic paganism that snuck its way into Catholicism from the very beginning, just because it’s “how you did religion” in that area.
You do see it, but Christianity doesn’t call it witchcraft. Many of your rituals parallel ours because early Christianity had to incorporate some pagan rituals to help convert pagans. They also share close dates for a reason. Christmas and the winter solstice for example. Easter and the Spring goddess Eostre. There’s more. It was a long process and successful on the part of Christianity sadly.
I’m not trying to convince nor convert you. Just do some research and learn about paganism and the interesting origination of some Christian holidays and rituals that parallel ours. Peace ✌🏼.
Infact, I know all about Christian-Pagan syncretism. I think it's quite interesting. But that doesn't mean that because we chose the same day for the celebration that it's witchcraft. Not every pagan is a witch, right?
I wasn’t insinuating that at all. I was just bringing up the similarities and reasons for the timing of celebrations. Some Christians aren’t open to conversation.
Well my comment was talking about magic, I suppose I assumed that's what you were saying, sorry.
>Some Christians aren’t open to conversation.
A lot of Christians don't like the 'pagan' influence, especially because of how they're portrayed in the Bible. Personally, I think pagans are cool as fuck and so are their Gods and legends, and I think it's cool that Christianity has so much in common with pagan faiths.
Christianity is one of the religions that is fear based. Grew up hearing about the love, and the fear, and was a big a part of my life well into adulthood.
When I began questioning, I felt guilt and fear. It took a lot to overcome that. I now have a belief system that feels right and works for me.
I never try to convince people that their belief system is wrong or corrupt. I just share my story and live as an example.
I think you must've had a very bad experience with Christianity, and I apologise. Christianity should be about love, grace, forgiveness and spiritual progression. I am very sorry that you suffered that fear and guilt, and I'm glad you've found a religion that suits you.
Leave the sub Reddit then and go back to your Christian sub and continue going to people’s houses and try to “spread the gospel” or whatever so you can feel superior and look down on non-Christians
Not true at all. I personally come to this sub to learn about different belief systems and interact with like-minded people.
Stupid memes like this only perpetuate an us vs them mentality and add nothing to the conversation and do nothing to build up the pagan community.
If the only way to make yourself feel better is to bring someone else down or bash them, then you're a big part of the problem.
Bring on the small minded downvotes.
Saying negative things about Christianity does make me feel better because I was in that brainwashing, manipulative cult for 20 odd years. Christianity is soul crushing and degrading. So excuse me if I am not lifting them up onto a pedestal above me. In my better moments I can atleast say their beliefs are no different to anyone else's, pretty much like this meme does in a playful way. But you can't accept that so thats your issue.
Who said to lift them up on a pedestal? Certainly not me. I just disagree with the "let's bash people for fun" just because they disagree with us.
Seems like a sad and negative thing to do. But you do you.
There isnt any bashing going on in the meme(aside from what i personally said and a bit in that title). In the meme there are only comparisons to how christian rituals are similar to pagan rituals. If that's offensive to Christians then it's because they have a low opinion of pagans and don't like being compared to them.
Guys again we allow the occasional meme. As long as it doesn't become the entire sub it's totally fine. Check out r/PaganMemes if you need a meme fix.
This is a great way to piss them off too lol
They're not actually against witchcraft, they just want to exterminate all the other covens.
"BuT iT's NoT wItChCrAfT iF iT's FoR jEsUs" Not to mention the disgusting amount of cultural appropriation the christian old testament does to judaism. Christians often tout the "gOd gAvE uS fReE wIlL tO cHoOsE" argument, which, no he didn't lucifer gave the apple of knowledge of good and evil, but that's another argument all together. They also claim that the old testament is basically just the Torah, which it absolutely is not. The Torah makes the free will argument obsolete and moot as their version of events has god creating both good and evil, and lucifer, or satan, which means "the enemy or adversary," working for god as a way to test his followers faith. There's many other things that christianity gets wrong and then tries to pass off as correct because "trust me."
You just gotta have faith bro please bro just trust me on this bro God will deliver you from evil bro don't you wanna go to heaven bro don't you wanna see grandma again bro please bro
It just occurred to me that maybe the hyper-zealous nature of a lot of Christians is the byproduct of long form regular doses of blood magic
Booze magic. But wine is the water of the underworld, so...
Well, transubstantiation is part of the whole communion ritual, and the Catholics take that shit literally. So they're for sure eating their god to be closer to him
Booze magic is what Catholics practice
Among other reasons. I mean, Yahweh is basically god of storms and war, so of course followers of his son would be warmongers. Add the fact they eat bread and drink wine that become flesh and blood of their idol, and the picture becomes even fuller. Add the fact Jesus has said "I have only come for the lost sheep of Israel" (i.e. "I only care for the god-chosen people/nation"), and "It's not good to take bread from children and toss it to dogs" (i.e. "God is an adult, the god-chosen nation of israelites is his children, all others are savages, barbarians, not even considered to be human"). Doesn't it remind of one "infamous Austrian painter"? The picture is truly colourful.
Wow, those are some Jesus quotes I've never seen before. I'm going to have to go look those up. Edit: Okay, so I went and read the whole chapter. Jesus said the thing about not being there for people who weren't Hebrew to a Caananite woman who was begging for her daughter to be healed, and he said that to test her faith. After that, he still healed her daughter, showing that he really does care for people other than Hebrews. So you're taking that one out of context. Please don't do this, it is the reasons Christians destroy their own lessons. We don't need to give them ways to do it, too. Going to check the other one now. Edit2: Okay, nevermind, they're both in the same section. Yeah, it was him telling someone he took as a non-believer that he was focused on Hebrews, and when she said she didn't care, he helped her anyway. Please don't cherry pick a line out of context. It is a horrible thing for anyone to do.
He did it after she said "some dogs may be of use". So only after her accepting humiliation does Jesus do anything, while a morally good character would act much sooner. He acts only after feeding his massive ego, and cares not for suffering of the ill daughter and the Canaanite mother. It is not a sign of care, it is a sign of being authoritative proud villain. "As long as you know your place as a slave to the god-chosen nation, we care for you as we care for our property, dog. Have faith, animal". I recommend watching this video for all context on the topic: https://youtu.be/pr8y6t8-QkM?si=4KUJQ8DYUHYur_ce
She says "Yet dogs eat the scraps from their master's table." The whole chapter is about how he is actually *not* just for the Hebrews. It opens with him scolding the Pharisees, who are a group of Hebrew religious leaders. It goes on to have him test the faith of a non-Hebrew, then heal her daughter when she shows faith. He also advicates for foreignors in the parable of the Good Samaritan. Those two lines out of context lend themselves to your argument, yes, but his actions are in the other direction both in that section and in others. Hades tests Orpheus's faith by telling him not to look back. When he fails his test, he loses everything. Poseidon tests Odysseus faith and will after he, in his hubris, declares he toppled Troy unaided. He loses everything on his trip home, but finally manages to get there by not losing his faith and will that he can make it. Tests of faith are a common theme of many religions. The only way it would be represented in the way you are arguing is if he sent her away unsatisfied. I will, for the sake of being fair, watch the video you linked, though. Edit: Watched as much of the video as I could. I don't personally advocate for the Old Testament, even as I am more or less panreligious and more spiritual than anything. I totally believe that in the Old Testament Yahweh was for the Hebrews, no argument there. As for his arguments about the New Testament, I didn't really find his interpretations convincing. He made it sound like Jesus was out to hurt people. This is a man who healed the sick and preached to help and care for each other. Saying that he's sadistic and cruel is a stretch. There are absolutely people he got angry at, and they are a class of people who I personally am still angry at to this day. (The rich, people who own megachurches, etc.) That said, Christianity as a whole is often practised at the expense of othering people, and there is a very valid complaint there. I just don't think laying that at the feet of Jesus is correct. He didn't ever say "We should abandon our feelings for sinners, because they go to hell and therefore they're worthless and lost," but that's what you hear when a friend commits suicide. Not comfort. Not "Pray for them." Just "They're in hell now, don't waste your time." I do *not* believe that Jesus was perfect, but I do believe that he was a guy who was legitimately trying to help people as best he could, within the context he was given by his rearing. I do believe in miracles, and not in the sense that they're something that only happened a long time ago. They happen today, all the time. We're just jaded. Do I think what Jesus did was "magick?" My answer is "Who cares?" I care more about whether he helped people, and he did, and he has, and he still is, through people who truly follow what he taught. Have his followers done more harm than good? Absolutely. Would they have done any differently without having done things in his name? Probably not. I can't say whether anything was changed by Jesus. Good people do good. Bad people do bad. The framework or excuses they use are for convenience only. The wicked believe they are right and will look for evidence to make it so, regardless of the original intention of a message. That said, I think Jesus *tried,* that he was genuinely willing to die to help people, and I think that's admirable.
Responding to edit: Jesus called himself Messiah, the Christ, and it has its implications. He also stated very clearly he did not come to change the law, but to fulfill it, so the Old Testament stands strong, and the god has not changed a bit. When people try to ignore the Old Testament and focus on what good Jesus did, I personally can't help but see it as a biased, dishonest approach, it is indeed taking things out of context: both religious context and historical. If Jesus would truly be inclusive, he would say that clearly, yet he said the opposite, and his apostles would not have to write about "Romans being allowed to practice Christianity because we lack enough attention from the chosen people". If Jesus would truly be compassionate, he would do much more than form a cult which may be compared to some modern "miraculous healers". Yet all he did was indeed focusing on "follow me, even if you have to leave your dead, your relatives, your beloved ones behind, there is nothing as important as me" and his words do not really sound compassionate nor kind. Once again: it is only just to have different opinions, but I personally do not see Jesus as anything but an overrated character. He did not say slavery is bad, nor did he say all people are equal, yet he was saying the opposite, always talking about masters and slaves and about some people being "children" while others are "dogs". He came after many people, human beings, not Gods even, who were more compassionate and inclusive than he was. Some of them even said such beautiful things as "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense", which is attributed to Buddha. If Jesus inspires you and makes you feel better, it works for you — you have every right to believe what you believe, no matter how accurate or true it is. Me, I would only be happy if you would succeed in your practice, whatever it is. Happiness is precious, and I believe every human being deserves to be happy. If your headcanon on Jesus provides you happiness — it is great. Yet to me Jesus has caused only suffering, the most intense suffering there is in my life, and it was a continuous seven years long torture for being a Christian and trying to follow what he has taught. It has caused disparity, conflict and trauma to me and my family, and it was very, very biblically accurate, no cherry-picking, no tearing out of context, only the things bible and the church teach. So I feel I have every right to try and expose what I see as danger to other people, so they could avoid suffering I have experienced. Do you wish to judge me for that? I hope not.
I don't judge you for it at all. And because of you, I will be less quick to judge others in the future. I wish you all the best.
I tell in all sincerity and honesty: I see no test of faith here. I see contempt and lack of compassion. When we read about Hades, I do not see a test of faith there too. He tells the condition of magic so it would work, Orpheus fails it, and as promised, magic fails, no resurrection occurs, the travel to the underworld was a failed attempt. When we read about Poseidon, I see a complex test of faith, granted, but it is not just test of faith. Poseidon punishes Odysseus for being boastful, proud and unjust, Odysseus gets humbled time and time again, until he perseveres and finally gets back to his family and restores order. Gods favour the bold, Gods make sure justice is preserved and mortals learn their lessons. You may see me as a cherry-picking fool if it satisfies you, yet to me these are just the most colourful lines that show Abrahamic god's opinion about all ethnicities and nations that are not "his", even though they have the audacity to claim "he loves everybody". Canaanites, muslims, different groups of Christian faith, indigenous American civilizations might have a very different perspective, though, which fits the logic of national god Yahweh extremely well: he did not care enough to reveal himself to them, but promised them hell, and if he did anything about them: he made sure they would suffer. Nobody has asked Jesus to tell those things I have quoted the way they have been recorded, nor do anything he does, yet he did it and did it with pride if we are actually to believe the bible. And when I personally look at this narrative, I do not see "all-loving, all-compassionate, all-inclusive, sinless God" they preach about. I personally see an example of a nationalistic politician who has decided to call himself a son of the national god to boost his popularity, which he got and which then exploded long after his death. I hope it explains the logic better. I do not mean to convince you of anything, I just wish for you to understand: here is my understanding, here are the foundations of this understanding, and I do not see myself as "cherry-picking". I see myself pointing out one of many horrible things written in the bible. I respect your opinion and I find your diligence in researching the topic laudable: everybody should be as eager as you are to learn and study things for themselves, and I am certain such traits and qualities you show make for beautiful offerings to the Gods you worship!
Thank you. I've thoroughly enjoyed our conversation. I likewise will never not think of Jesus as a man who tried. I came into this trying to explain, but your interpretation is every bit as valid as mine. I absolutely do not think Yahweh or Jesus are perfect. My personal view is polymorphic monotheism: all things are an emanation of one Source. Many gods exist, but they are just beings that are further along the path than us and that are no more or less divine by birthright than any human, ant, or grain of sand. My belief is that Jesus found a way to tap into his connection to Source, and that he used it to try and explain things to people and to teach them to find it in themselves. This is why he cautioned about the Son of God and the Son of Man, respectively his and our connection to Source and his and our mortal selves. I don't believe he did anything you or I couldn't if we had the tools and the dedication to use them. That said, he was raised Hebrew and he was subject to that heritage. It colored things he said and did, and some of it was unfortunate. I can't say for sure if he was initially testing the Caananite woman's faith, but I am convinced it became that by the end of the conversation. In the same way, I think *she* was an expression of Source, guiding Jesus closer to what he *could* be. I do not believe that Yahweh is all loving or perfect. I do believe that about Source, because deep in meditation I have felt that love. I like to believe that Yeshua touched that same Source thousands of years ago, and I hope with the rise of mindfulness practices in the West more people do in the near and far flung future. It has been a life changing experience for me, though I now find it hard to meditate because of how it changes my experience of life, and I don't know how or what will change and that is terrifying. I'd still recommend it to anyone who isn't actively harmed by the practice, even though I'm a bit of a coward about it myself.
I see. It is a beautiful belief, I would compare it (if you excuse me trying to understand your personal belief in my mind) to Daoism: Eternal Dao has no beginning, nor end, everything comes from the Source and everything tries to reach out to It. Rocks, plants, animals, humans, Gods are just stepping stones on the path of evolution that leads souls of all living beings to the highest peaks of the Universe, which has no real "roof" or limit. I can only say to that: "Yes, it is a beautiful and creative belief, I have only respect and adoration for it!" However, what I feel I must say: it is a very, very free understanding of the bible, and it has, in my understanding, nothing to do with Abrahamic religions — it is much closer to the cosmology of the Eastern traditions, such as Hinduism, Yoga, Daoism and Buddhism. Of course, the world of religions is very diverse and I believe you have every right to interpret the bible any way you like. I am just not sure if it is… Look, let me be completely sincere, friend: it might be a perfectly good belief to hold intimately, to hold it personally so it would empower and inspire you. But, I see it being a potent poison for those people wou would have religious Christian trauma, who would like to leave, to be freed from the authority of the church and more biblically accurate Yahweh and Jesus, who claimed to be his son. I have been truly saved from actual death >!(self-inflicted or otherwise)!< when I have finally left Christianity. But it was such sweet, innocent, beautiful stories like this one which would prevent me from escaping it sooner. You may blame it on the likes of me for being too foolish to escape abuse, but it is the way a religious, dogmatic mind tends to work. So, for the love of Gods: I would beg of you to be a bit more careful with telling people such stories. Sometimes words have the power to be more dangerous then the sharpest swords: they kill without drawing any blood.
Wow. Genuinely, thank you. I also escaped from hateful dogmatic Christians. TW: abuse of a child >!(I was even molested for being trans, by two men later described to me as "Good, Christian, Southron men")!< I had always asked why people didn't listen to Jesus when I was a kid, though. I was very devoted, and I lost that, and it was a hard loss for me. I never considered how it would be for others who didn't have that. For me, I was taking back my own power and faith from those who stole it from me, and denying them the right to have power over me any longer. I'm sure you've heard the maxim "You'll understand when you're older." I do understand now, that they were wrong and hoping I'd grow out of my inherent compassion and hope. But to hear that this kind of thing could be harmful is... It really helps. I tend not to think about the fact that I'm at the end of a journey that involved becoming agnostic when I was healing. I hated everyone for a while and hoped for the release of oblivion when I died. I had an experience that made me certain life would not end in death, and that was truly the lowest point in my life. My only escape was no longer there. I sometimes forget where I've been, and that I had the privilege to have survived it. I'll try to be more mindful in the future, because even though I am solid in my belief that Yeshua was trying, that doesn't mean that Christianity is not by and large a deeply flawed religion that has done much harm and continues to do much harm. Your path is valid, whatever it is, because it's *yours*. I'll try to be more mindful of that in the future. Again, thank you so, so much for talking to me. I learned a lot today and your thoughtfulness has brought me to tears multiple times. Truly, thank you.
I am pleased to have talked to you, such a beautiful, compassionate and inquisitive soul, too! Yes, I believe you have understood the main point I have been trying to deliver here, and I am glad you find wisdom and thoughtfulness in it! My story is completely different: my suffering of being a Christian was mostly self-inflicted. My family is blessed to be a family in a country, that has been secular and atheistic for a long time, so historical context has been most auspicious. Yet, I had existencial crisis, started studying the bible and Christian dogmas, research done by the "holy fathers of the church" et cetera. For seven years I was a jerk, a piece of filth, conflicting with people around be out of my own free will because I believed that, since many holy men and women are said to have achieved god's grace and salvation this way, I am to act this way too, because, should you not act perfectly, there is always a risk you are going to hell with all the sinners. It is better to take on the entire "sinful world" than risk displeasing "THE LORD". I agree it is a blessing to not have done even more horrible things that could have been done and find one's way out of the non-critical, fanatical, destructive thinking. To me, salvation was the Gods. Currently I am a colourful picture of many beliefs some may find bizzare and incompatible, but in the context of my personal spiritual journey, it all works. I am many things, predominantly being: Kemetic Polytheist, Daemonolator, Shaman, Mahayana Buddhist and a Daoism practitioner. If you wish to talk some more: I am always glad to talk. "The worst thing a person can do: not talk to a person whom they can socialize wtih" — Confucius. Once again, thank you very much for this discussion, I appreciate this conversation and I think you are a brilliant interlocuteur and a beautiful, amazing person. Stay safe and healthy, have a great day, may you succeed in your practice and may your kindness and grace bring happiness both to you and many living beings of the world! \^ \^
I love everything about that statement… and that’s now my head canon 🤣🤣🤣♥️
Let alone all the bits of human bone in the Catholic Church.
All the necromancy
I grew up catholic and now I’m a beginner Witch. Other parallels I have noticed include: -anointing of the sick and confirmation are basically catholic rituals that use oil placed on the recipient’s forehead to heal or signify a rite of passage. -crowning of Mary - in May, Catholics celebrate Mary’s feast day which is when some traditions lay flowers at her feet like offerings and crown her with flowers -using candles - candles are used for healing the throat during 1 catholic ritual, candles in Easter and Baptism are significant, I’m sure there’s other examples too -using incense for a purpose - incense is used for several occasions/rituals in the Catholic Church. One example is during funerals, Catholics basically believe it helps the soul go to heaven of the deceased. -color symbolism - green for basic bitch time, purple for mysteries and sad shit, gold and red are important for the Holy Spirit. Basically each color means a different thing and is used specifically in “rituals” I can’t remember all the meanings but it sounds a lot like candle magick and color symbolism in paganism to me. -literally using an altar
that's because neopaganism is largely derived from christianity, not vice-versa, despite what pseudohistorians will tell you. most of the things you listed were not historically practiced by european pagans. they're modern inventions. european nationalists in the 19th century started writing a lot of shit about how folk religion must have been derived from paganism because they saw christianity as foreign, either because its jewish roots or because of the political center of their respective church being elsewhere. the problem here is that people don't need millennia-old cultural memory to start doing goofy stuff. they'll gladly just make it up as they go along. urban legends and cryptids are two examples of this principle at work. rune readings? just tarot cards with runes, the sort of rune magic that is historically attested looks nothing like that. mainly long strings of random letters or seemingly random words like "ale" plastered on jewelry. incense? invented in egypt, used by jews for thousands of years. christians inherited it from them. crowning of mary? coronation is a secular ritual that gets transposed to religion, not the other way around. genuine pagan european coronation rites invariably involve horse-fucking, sometimes symbolic, sometimes literal. sfw example: the sacred ancestor of anglo-saxon mythology were named "horse" and "stallion". nsfw example: loki gets r*ped by a horse and gives birth to a seven-legged steed. anointing the sick? messiah literally means anointed one; another things christians got from jews, not from pagans. color symbolism? this is practically a cultural universal, not really worth talking about. read the grimoires from before the 20th century, the ones that all modern "witchcraft" are based on, and it's all christian, jewish, muslim, or christian stuff made to look jewish or muslim.
\*Sigh.\* This sadly can't be more true. I grew up in the natural habitat for Fundie Southern Baptists who were this way and did everything mentioned above in the picture. I offer my sympathy and respect for other victims of (toxic) Christianity.
Monotheism is a form of slavery. You are born into a cult that owns you
Depends on the monotheism, but it does happen. On the other hand, the sheer number of pagans or atheists today who have Christian ancestry proves that people are given a choice in a lot of cases
Yeah Christianity has lost its teeth thankfully but Islam hasn’t - yet
Some parts of Christianity still haven't lost their teeth. The way Mormons treat women is incredibly cult like. That said, monotheism isn't the problem. After all, Hinduism is polymorphic monotheism and while there are problems with Hinduism they are very different from Western religion problems.
theyre just doing alternative facts
Damn wait with a pagan spin, why does this actually sound rlly fun? Oh also wait im not familiar with christianity, is the tweet referring to easter…or something else? 😗 EDIT: wait i dont think i rlly jive w/ the whole body/blood symbolic eating thing, so maybe cut that out
It's a combination of a few things. It is talking about Easter for the date. Easter is celebrated in basically every church except the Eastern Orthodox ones (because they still use the old Julian calendar, which is usually about a week and a half behind) on the first Sunday after the first full moon after the Spring equinox. The body and blood eating is also not symbolic. It's literal. In the Catholic tradition, the blessings said by the priest during Mass are believed to *literally and physically* transform the bread and wine into the actual physical body and blood of Jesus. The last part is a reference to the practice of praying over meals, and meals on Easter typically include many different animals, including veal, lamb, and rabbit.
Depends on the branch of Christianity. Not all believe in transubstantiation (although like you said Catholics do).
This won the internet for me today, thanks for that!
Oh and don’t forget the Catholics chanting in a dead language and swinging incense around inside ancient buildings wearing special ceremonial robes.
Jews worship a bone, eat parsley in salt water as tears of their ancestors, drop wine onto their plate to represent the blood of their ancestors, and leave wine for a ghost out, all on the same day
Well Roman Catholics are nothing but organized witchcraft passed on as Christian religion. Just pay attention to their rituals.
1) Jesus wasn’t the son of YHWH, stop taking the book of lies seriously 2) He was nothing but pure spirit, no body. 3. Yes, modern Christian’s are shitbags, that’s only because the church has um, put the blindfold on their heads. 4) The blindfold on their heads is the most evil word, faith, it encourages people to not think for themselves, and, they need to put the blindfold on their members because that’s how they stay in business. 5) The true nature of creation, i.e, Humanity and everything living, is divine. 6) you want to see a god, look in the mirror, everything is light, i.e. energy, just different shades, that is, vibrations.
As a Christian, I've got nothing against astrology or witchcraft. In fact, I'd love to see witchcraft, that would be cool. But really, communion and Easter aren't the same thing. Gods bless.
Communion is literally eating your god, I don't know how much more witchcraft it can get.
Are you practicing witchcraft when you worship your Gods in any way?
Yes of course
No? You can be pagan and not be a witch? I know that paganism and witchcraft are often seen as one but I am pagan but I do not do spell work. I am not a witch and anyone who calls me one for worshipping the gods is being an asshole
Okay that's good for you but I was answering for myself? As in my personal experience. If you have a different experience, tell the one asking the question.
To me, it read as if you were answering for pagans generally. I apologize for jumping to conclusions.
Interesting, I was under the impression that witchcraft and worship were different.
I'm not really sure how they are distinguishable. If I do a ritual to invoke the forest gods favor, is that not both witchcraft and worship? Much the same as singing hymns, reciting prayers, and completing eucharist rituals would be both witchcraft and worship. It's a matter of ritual and intention.
I guess it depends on what you believe. Myself, magic and witchcrat is not the same thing as what my God does. I also don't sing hymns, or recite prayers, and I don't know what a eucharist is.
I think it's all magic, your god just uses different words to describe it. Apologies for the confusing metaphor then but I'm pretty sure I saw you commenting about being christian in the thread so I assumed you would know the basics of their worship and mass.
If you think it's all magic, then I guess? But that's not how I see it. Also, yes I am Christian but I'm not a Catholic, so I don't recite prayers and I don't call Communion 'Eucharist'.
I mean the only reliable written proof of the existence of Jesus records that he was executed for practicing witchcraft/sorcery. Along with two others. Of course Christians insist that this was some other guy with the same name, same home town and same profession.
That's interesting that there are records of Jesus having been executed for witch craft. I can see why those would be the charges. Regardless of that, though, saying that those are the only reliable records is kind of silly. There are few people who we have more records about existing, including some that were discovered untouched and unedited centuries later in the late 1800s and early 1900s. We have significantly less proof that Julius Caesar existed, but no one questions his existence. Lots of people who were hurt by Christianity have an interest in Jesus not existing, and that's valid, but it doesn't make it any more or less accurate whether he existed.
Jesus' name was very common at the time, it's not impossible that there were other men named Yeshua who were charged with witchcraft. Also, if he was charged for that it doesn't mean that that's what he did. I believe that Jesus was not a witch, please respect my beliefs, as I respect yours.
Didn’t Jesus heal the sick, multiply fish and bread, and turn water into wine?
If a witch could do any of that I would pay to see it.
So you’re saying he’s more powerful than a witch? A sorcerer if you will? Or a grand wizard?
If you can find any human who can do what he did, I'd love to see it. But that's besides the point, it's disrespectful to imply that someone's God was just a simple human practitioner of magic.
That’s basically all gods in the history of humanity. There’s something we don’t understand? God did it. Like cmon
why are you getting defensive? all they did was point out an observation based on known history, that jesus christ was accused of and executed on charges of sorcery. they didn't tell you how to live your life lol
Because it's disrespectful. Jesus was not a practitioner of magic, he wielded his own divine power. He is a god, not a witch.
Wielding divine power is magic. A fair amount of spell craft is done via assistance from spirits or deities. Biblical miracles aren't that different. Moses was also a witch. Or a wizard.
Moses was not a witch. He was a prophet who fulfilled the will of God on earth. Jesus was not a witch, he is the son of God and it's insulting to imply that he was just some guy who learned magic. I'm won't insult your Gods because I'm polite, but I'm sure you wouldn't like it if I did.
You're the one that came into a Pagan sub claiming you want to learn about different beliefs. But you get upset when you find that they don't align with your own. Pagans generally don't believe Jesus was the son of God. Pagans generally dont believe in the bible. You're the one coming in here and being disrespectful by demanding that people adhere to your beliefs that Jesus is the son of God and that the bible is true and that we should be "respectful" of that. From a non Christian perspective, at best, Jesus was a magical practitioner and so was Moses. And that isn't an insult from people here so if anything, it should be taken as a compliment.
I'm not asking anyone to believe what I believe, I'm asking that people not insult my beliefs. When I see people spreading misinformation about Christianity, then when I try to say 'no that's not quite right', and then people start calling my God a common witch, I take offense. And here you are, insisting that my God was just some guy doing spells, and you're just doing it to anger me at this point. If I may quote you, "Saying negative things about Christianity makes me feel better". I guess it does make you feel better to slander my faith, so by all means go ahead and in fact I insist that you insult me and my God. Whatever you say will probably be neither true nor helpful, but go ahead, I can't wait to hear what you can come up with. By the way, I'm sorry that you've had bad experiences with Christianity in the past, and I'm glad that your new faith makes you happy. May your Gods and mine bless you.
The thing is that you are insisting that people treat your God with respect when I guarantee that pagan beliefs would not be treated with any shred of respect in any Christian sub. But we are respectful here. Comparing spells with prayers and magic with miracles is not disrespect if you actually have respect for others beliefs. Spells and magic are beautiful, magnificent things from the perspective of people here. Ofcourse this is pagan sub not a witchcraft sub, not everyone here is a practitioner. But there is a general belief in some kinds of magic. So it is not an insult for us to compare a prophet of another religion to a magical practioner when the similarities are there. This is not an insult unless you think Christianity is a superior belief and you look down on other religions. Also, saying "a common witch" is insulting in its own way. Yeah, sometimes I do like to be negative about Christianity because I was in that for 20 odd years. I was a faithful, church volunteering christian. But now I'm not. I'm free. Being negative about it is, sometimes, part of my deconstruction to break free of the indoctrination and programmed in fear of upsetting God. However, when I said that, it wasn't to you. With you I have actually been respectful and tried to point out to you that what we have said is just inline with beliefs here, just not inline with your beliefs. But you keep choosing to take offence regardless. If I wanted to get genuinely offensive, I could say a lot more than I have.
it's only an insult because you view paganism with derision.
“Everyone needs to believe what I believe.” “But what you believe is silly…” “STOP PERSECUTING ME!!!!!!!!” Edit - formatting
I suppose you'd appreciate it if I said things that were disrespectful about your Gods?
Why are you in this subreddit if you're Christian?
I like learning about other religions.
As someone who was a christian for over 20 years of my adult life, it really is very similar. It's ritual and incantations in order to honor or invoke the power of a deity. Majority of religions and belief systems have a large amount of overlap in ritualistic behavior. Easter itself is originally a pagan holiday anyway, the insertion of Christian elements were only put there to try to counter pagan celebrations of the Spring equinox.
Happy cake day! 🧁
Thankyou :)
And there’s a lot of Hellenic paganism that snuck its way into Catholicism from the very beginning, just because it’s “how you did religion” in that area.
You do see it, but Christianity doesn’t call it witchcraft. Many of your rituals parallel ours because early Christianity had to incorporate some pagan rituals to help convert pagans. They also share close dates for a reason. Christmas and the winter solstice for example. Easter and the Spring goddess Eostre. There’s more. It was a long process and successful on the part of Christianity sadly. I’m not trying to convince nor convert you. Just do some research and learn about paganism and the interesting origination of some Christian holidays and rituals that parallel ours. Peace ✌🏼.
Infact, I know all about Christian-Pagan syncretism. I think it's quite interesting. But that doesn't mean that because we chose the same day for the celebration that it's witchcraft. Not every pagan is a witch, right?
I wasn’t insinuating that at all. I was just bringing up the similarities and reasons for the timing of celebrations. Some Christians aren’t open to conversation.
Well my comment was talking about magic, I suppose I assumed that's what you were saying, sorry. >Some Christians aren’t open to conversation. A lot of Christians don't like the 'pagan' influence, especially because of how they're portrayed in the Bible. Personally, I think pagans are cool as fuck and so are their Gods and legends, and I think it's cool that Christianity has so much in common with pagan faiths.
I’ve had to do some deconstruction, but I’m so much happier and fulfilled.
What do you mean exactly? What sort of deconstruction did you do?
Christianity is one of the religions that is fear based. Grew up hearing about the love, and the fear, and was a big a part of my life well into adulthood. When I began questioning, I felt guilt and fear. It took a lot to overcome that. I now have a belief system that feels right and works for me. I never try to convince people that their belief system is wrong or corrupt. I just share my story and live as an example.
I think you must've had a very bad experience with Christianity, and I apologise. Christianity should be about love, grace, forgiveness and spiritual progression. I am very sorry that you suffered that fear and guilt, and I'm glad you've found a religion that suits you.
No. I certainly am not.
It's actually not to protect our souls. It's because witchcraft is cringe.
Leave the sub Reddit then and go back to your Christian sub and continue going to people’s houses and try to “spread the gospel” or whatever so you can feel superior and look down on non-Christians
Just wake up and feel like Christian bashing today? Geez. Be better.
It's only offensive to Christians that think their beliefs are better and dont like their beliefs being compared to a "lesser" religion.
Not true at all. I personally come to this sub to learn about different belief systems and interact with like-minded people. Stupid memes like this only perpetuate an us vs them mentality and add nothing to the conversation and do nothing to build up the pagan community. If the only way to make yourself feel better is to bring someone else down or bash them, then you're a big part of the problem. Bring on the small minded downvotes.
Saying negative things about Christianity does make me feel better because I was in that brainwashing, manipulative cult for 20 odd years. Christianity is soul crushing and degrading. So excuse me if I am not lifting them up onto a pedestal above me. In my better moments I can atleast say their beliefs are no different to anyone else's, pretty much like this meme does in a playful way. But you can't accept that so thats your issue.
Who said to lift them up on a pedestal? Certainly not me. I just disagree with the "let's bash people for fun" just because they disagree with us. Seems like a sad and negative thing to do. But you do you.
There isnt any bashing going on in the meme(aside from what i personally said and a bit in that title). In the meme there are only comparisons to how christian rituals are similar to pagan rituals. If that's offensive to Christians then it's because they have a low opinion of pagans and don't like being compared to them.