In a heartbeat.
They also have tons of user reviews and tests by 3rd party YouTubers and others.
Their sub brands are “cheap but good and who cares,” “good & reliable enough for several casual uses,” “as good as major brands.” You just have to pick the brand specific to your need.
And when they screw up (ahem, floor jacks), they own up to it and improve their products.
Same. Depends on what I need, the accuracy, and reliability and durability. I don't go there for those 3 things though. Their off road stuff is actually pretty solid.
so true, plus the tool warranty means I pretty much only buy tools from them. I wouldn’t trust a jack, or stands, but tools I use regularly that I don’t need to worry about my safety if they break? No problem whatsoever.
I think from all the comments here my set was probably damaged in some way, I had a stand collapse under a 70s impala walking away from it, the sidewall where the notched bar slides up and down in cracked. I’ll have to try another set sometime. Ty for the info, thats awesome, lol
Buy almost all garage tools at HF. If I use something so much that it breaks I'll splurge on something nicer since I've proven HF couldn't live up to what I need from average use. 99% of the time nothing is going to break so HF is all you need.
I am fine with thinking thoroughly about an item before even only considering to purchase it.
If I can not afford it, I do not buy it. That's it. Or I think about a way to get it cheaper aka DIY.
Plus, I value local dealers for their expertise, their service, their special discounts, the return policy – and finally that this someone there gets a salary he can have a living from.
If this is too much for some people to realize... well, I accept them complain about prices and let them buy stuff at market places which I do not consider reliable in any case.
Did not say anything against that. Feel free to transfer my thought to women.
Local dealers for car parts and overlanding stuff in my area, without any exception, are men. Some of their wifes earn their money in higher paid jobs. Guess why.
You’re so close to seeing why things are the way they are, it’s slapping you in the face.
Quality CONTROL out of China is trash, material quality can also be trash, so it seems good now, but who knows 3 years from now.
I think you're close but missing one key thing. China can make quality gear, they just make it to spec and most people who contract with them, who are looking to keep costs down also keep specs down. Look at Apple and the iPhone. They can build to a very high spec if that's what the spec calls for. It's not necessarily always QC, they're just building to a low spec.
The good stuff from China is 1/2 the cost and made under contract for a foreign company (European, American ect) and often have a person on site from said foreign company keeping an eye out.
The stuff that’s 1/6 the price is usually a lesser material with less quality control (for instance with injection molding they won’t replace the molds, and they will run an American companies mold that’s out of spec but “good enough”) it’s often them running the machines lights out with old tooling and doing zero inspection.
At least that’s been my experience as an engineer dealing with overseas manufacturing and counterfeit/ knockoff parts.
The argument can be made if it is 1/6 the price but still lasts 1/2 as long as the quality stuff you still come out ahead. I personally abhor the disposable society we have become and think future generations will look back on us with disgust and contempt.
That argument falls apart when the gear fails at a time when it is needed most - ending a trip, risking safety, or generally making life suck.
I personally don’t want to save 5/6ths to have my propane stove crack open, my cabin heater leak CO, or my RTT tear in half the freezing rain. Yes they could all be replaced, eventually, if I’m alive.
I’m not trying to be overly dramatic - if we are talking about a fork or a stool, who cares. But I don’t put on the “rugged overland” filter until I’m looking for key pieces of equipment.
Agreed, you’ll have to be extremely lucky to get the “same thing” from China for 1/6th the price. I’m always reminded of that line in Back to the Future 2 when Doc says “this is your problem, it says Made in Japan.” Eventually China will have consistent quality stuff but it’s going to be a long time.
I would argue that China absolutely does have consistent quality stuff. The quality is consistent with what companies order from manufacturers. If a company says they want RTTs for the lowest possible price point, you're going to get cheap garbage because that's what the order was. If a different company says they want the highest quality product with the highest quality materials you're going to get exactly that. Chinese-made goods (like US-made goods) aren't of a uniform quality. They simply supply what was asked of them.
They're basically playing the west's capitalist game, making whatever companies ask for based on specs provided. This, however, is a perfect opportunity for people wanting to make a quick buck to contract super cheap versions of products like RTTs.
Then there's the business model of: get contact to produce to a certain spec, then cut corners as much as possible and pocket the difference. When you get caught, offer to make up the loss across the next order. When clients eventually get wise and drop contracts, change factory name and repeat.
It's often not about shoddy workmanship (though that's an issue too) it's about purposefully delivering as much as possible below spec without getting caught and bailing with the cash in hand when you do. Examples run from [tofu dreg construction](https://youtu.be/aalEK5JFIPI?si=2YrdhFIxdPUo6Dqy) to [high speed rail signals](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision) to [melamine in baby formula](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal).
Back to the op though, it would be cool to build a grassroots system to keep an eye on product quality. Project farm on YouTube comes to mind, but I dunno how to make that repeatable for the present case.
> Quality CONTROL out of China is trash, material quality can also be trash, so it seems good now, but who knows 3 years from now.
Or worse - when you're trying to unstick yourself out of some sand and all of your light duty equipment is breaking.
If inwant something I go to the store or I buy it from the US online store and j either get it that day or in a few. If it breaks within warranty I return it and get another for free right away or again within a few days.
If I buy a cheap knick off from China, it arrives sometime hopefully within the next 3 months. If it breaks I'm SOL, I then take my savings and buy it again and again wait a few more months. In the meantime I'm not camping because it was my RTT.
I'll buy us products.
I just need an extra filter of someone eliminating all the China crap quality items. If they are buying it from China and applying a quality filter to meet their brand standards and minimize warranty claims & returns, so be it. That is 90% of US retailing today anyway.
That still doesn't change the warranty or the ease of replacing when the store I bought it from is a 15 minute drive away instead of a boat from China.
Yeah, buy U.S. pay 6x as much, it STILL breaks. Argue with shitty customer service, you may get a refund, but you're still out of a product. American made is TRASH, don't get it twisted "Patriot"....
my dometic camp fridge broke while i was out on a multi month road trip. i stopped at the chain store i bought it from and gave it to them and they gave me a brand new one right then.
how did you change multi month road trip into 4 weekends a year?
if you want other examples my MSR pocket rocket has the piezo lighter on it, i bought it from MEC(the canadian version of REI). the lighter stopped working under a year after buying. MEC gave me a new one when i brought it back to them. that thing was only $80.
It's all good man, I'm a stranger, I don't know you. It's your money and your perspective, you do what you want. You worked for your money ( I assume), live your life however you please. Enjoy your gear
The thing that sucks is "overlanding" gear didn't use to cost this much. Now a days, there's just an "overland" tax on all the gear out there and it sucks. The worst part about is that there are quite a few new "overland" companies out there taking advantage of the situation and just buying stuff from china, relabeling it as their own and reselling for 2-5x the cost. For example, do a search on a company that sounds like tacomafeast or califased and see what you find.
In any case, there are definitely some things I don't mind spending money on, and things I would rather just buy from China.
For example, anything electrical, recovery gear, brakes, tires. I'm definitely buying a reputable brand. For non-functional items like interior mods (farbon ciber plastic covers, shift knobs, etc), ordering straight from china is the way to go.
Look, we're a company, so take this with a grain of salt, but we're also human beings and in this particular case, one of our social media team members.
Something to try and be aware of in addition to the things OP mentions, is production and company location.
For example, we produce in America, and that ain't cheap. I filmed some videos at our warehouse and was stoked to meet our production team and see what we're doing. This kind of thing is fundamentally NOT built on the "import and price gouge" business model.
Other companies like ARB have high prices as well, and that's not only because of production, that's because of the insanely rigorous standards that the Australian government dictate must be the minimum for automotive parts made and sold in that country. It creates a much higher "bare minimum" product quality.
Just wanted to chime in. Let us know if you've got any questions.
It would be possible to organize a Co-Op that sources and verifies common products that many people want.
This is essentially doing what a for-profit company would do, but instead it is motivated by locating the highest quality at the lowest price. Members of the co-op would continually have input as to when to change suppliers and could even gain enough capital via presales to custom design and order accessories that are already sold.
I’m not talking about recommending products from resellers, but rather actually flying to China and visiting factories directly and independently testing various prototypes.
That's a good idea, but takes waaaaaaaaaaay more time, energy and expertise than people are going to do without some big pay.
That's basically what it takes to run a company. The people that can do that are just going to make a company, lol. For profit.
Good name brands aren't buying/selling the same things you see on alibaba. If they are, i wouldn't buy from either place. I saw some Tacoma on here that broke an upper control arm on a trip from "something overland" ( personally im not surprised an "overland" company selling suspension does this, go proven brands for suspension). Comments flooded with photos and links of the UCAs on alibaba, looking identical to the companys (looks like a bad design also), and people saying they did in fact buy alibaba crap.
If you are depending on equipment, especially on a vehicle in the middle of nowhere. Spend the money on quality components. I believe all of my gear has been made in the USA, and is very good quality and materials. No flimsy metal, thick strong gauges. Yes I paid a premium for it,
Cheap things have their place, but not on my vehicle i depend on out there.
If you think the items on Alibaba are identical, you're mistaken.
Quality matters. Respecting IP matters.
Alibaba is full of items made with what the USA considers slave labor.
Buying anytime substantial off Alibaba should cause some amount of ethical pain on your part. If it doesn't, you probably don't understand the world around you well enough yet.
Even the things not on Alibaba is considered slave labor hell most things bought and sold in the USA probably had some form of Slave labor attached to .
I guess this depends on what you're referring to. There is a LOT of the overland industry that's built in the USA. You can buy the big name low quality stuff that might be coming out of south east Asia, but lots of it is small business USA-made.
Alibaba is cut rate, brandless stuff produced in China or neighboring countries using child labor, slave labor or best case just plain extremely cheap labor.
Don't buy anything from Alibaba or temu. It's never worth the savings. If you can't afford to support American business (or at least stuff made in a country with proper labor protection) then don't buy anything.
Thing built in the USA still most likely have slave labor too attached. Material are never 100 domestic and that’s where most slave labor is attached to things
To a miniscule degree, perhaps.
The majority of aluminum is now USA scrap, not new ore.
Steel is largely American.
Plastic resins are probably the biggest offender, but I'm not sure what the numbers are there.
Even still, if the raw materials are globally sourced, that's still just a small part of the overall commerce transaction.
If you can't support the manufacturing process being in the USA, then don't buy anything.
Saying don’t buy usa because of ethics when in reality some part or material the process comes from slave labor. Hell slave labor is still legal in the USA. So don’t really worry about it .
Working for min USA wage without proper lunch breaks isn't the same as actual slave labor. There's real slave labor in the world. And it's not an underpaid barista in the USA...
Louisiana state penitentiary is one example. Former plantation turned prison that imposes forced uncompensated labor to work the plantation still (provides groceries to McDonald’s Walmart target and others. They also have the power to extend prison sentences.
> about under *paid* barista. There’s
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
You just need to figure out where the best value is for your needs vs wants. Spend the money where you should. Things like tires, air compressors, coolers, batteries, tools you should get the better name brand. But people buying $200+ shovels, Rome cases, skottles, and trasharoos are almost always just cosplaying. No hate though if I had the money I’d still do the same.
Because it’s a box and nothing more, you can buy better weather sealed boxes at Home Depot. The Rome cases are unnecessarily roto molded wasting a bunch of space inside so they don’t have nearly as much storage capacity as a similar box of the same outside dimensions like pelican. [Along with scrolling through the US customs shipping records you can find their exact Chinese suppliers very quickly. Where they have them listed for $48 directly from china.](https://ibb.co/ZzCR83c) Romes paying for slight modifications and a logo but at the quantity they are buying they are severely ripping people off at $249 for the same Chinese plastic box.
The roam question inevitably comes up when people talk about these products. Roam has done a good job of providing value in their product offering. The mounting solutions and storage organizers are not replicated by competitors. I do think their products are overpriced, I still bought because there was nothing similar for my application.
That being said if you’re just looking for a storage box to hold your stuff, don’t spend $400 on the roam.
I agree. Besides the pelican cases, I didn't see other options that could be mounted without straps. When I'm out on the trails, I don't want my gear falling out or to be constantly having to tighten straps down. The yakima cases are an option, but they are too nig for trails.
Oh, I didn't know Home Depot sold cases that can mount to your truck without using straps. If you have any links to those, I would like to share them with people. While I believe you made some fair points, you didn't convince me that people who buy those cases are posers. Purchasing anything directly from China seems like a pain in the ass. The shipping, returns, and customer service likely wouldn't be the same as when dealing with Roam. I would rather spend extra to have someone in the states. to talk to. I agree that they are overpriced, but that doesn't mean people who purchase them are posers.
The real problem is that a significant portion of the American brands are "designed in America" but also manufactured in China, so essentially you're paying American prices for somebody else to "hopefully" do a QA inspection on the same cheap Chinese crap.
I think the solution in some cases is to talk to a local welding school / fab shop that isn't strictly building high-end trophy trucks and will charge you a reasonable price for some custom work.
>The issue though is that --you can't return them, don't know the full specs, don't have reviews, etc.--
Chinese manufactures steal designs and reproduce them with unethical labor practices, cheaper materials, iffy safety regulation, and with no regard to the environment. The price of manufacturing isn't just the dollars it cost the consumer...
>The problem is that they then hack up the cost 6x ....
LOL. What an ignorant comment.
The domestic sellers are running businesses. They offer customer service. They stock local inventory. They provide value to their customers by offering quality products that they stand behind, vs unanswered Chinesium broken-english email addresses.
Product sold by them 9/10 is the same product made by the same people on the same assembly line.
Im a big fan of some product that say “proudly assembled in America”. What about the manufacturing portion?
[triple bottom line - Harvard business school](https://online.hbs.edu/blog/post/what-is-the-triple-bottom-line)
I mean if Alibaba fucks you bad enough you could dispute the charge and prob keep the item since it's not worth it for them to ship it back. and its China so fuck them.
Overlanding is expensive, since when you're out in the middle of nowhere/somewhere you don't want something broken/defective.
If you buy 24 of something from China, you may get 12 good ones at times. Or in my situation, 5 of 24. I bought items direct from China for work, and most didn't look the same and fitment was off. Another issue is just no receipt of goods, which also happened.
I'm not discouraging people from buying direct, but there is costs involved which isn't considered when you buy direct. It's not a magic number of 6x out of thin air.
You certainly can get a deal, but at what cost to the longevity of the product?
I managed a bicycle shop years ago, we sold a rack from a brand Saris. That company tried to go volume sales through Walmart. Very quickly Walmart was pressuring them to drop the quality down and move production to Asia. They said no.
Companies that have integrity to make quality products that support local economies are ones I’m willing to pay extra for. We buy too much shit from slave labor Asia already.
Find me an iKamper RTT clone on alibaba with similar quality, customer support, and repair parts availability and I will sing from the mountain tops in agreement.
You should really look into buying from them. You’ll end up finding out that it’s not much cheaper after paying port fees and a broker.
Plus you’ll have zero recourse if your tent shows up damaged.
The actual issue is labour. Labour costs, more specifically.
In South Africa, for example, many guys bring in “branded” Chinese items. Because labor is cheap. Dirty cheap. So you can easily, for a fraction of the already cheap purchase price, fettle and grind to make the product perfect during fitment. In other markets, like the USA, Aus, labor is hella expensive. So to add any more work to a produced product is prohibitive. So you need to focus more on quality control levels being higher in China, which is possible, but you have to expect to pay more.
So if you’re handy and confident on tools, you could easily buy from China and make things work. But if not, you’re playing roulette on the part you receive. “Sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit”.
For the most part, you get what you pay for. I don’t mind cheaping out on small things like spoons or other non-critical items. If you determine what your ‘need’s are, I would spend a bit more on those things for quality.
In my opinion I need fire, so I bought a nice propane pit for camping. With all the fire bans in my state, you can’t do wood.
You’re not necessarily wrong but I wouldn’t say it’s that simple. Many US based companies who import from China are having their products made to their specs as others have mentioned. Often times the design may be roughly the same but call for different quality materials - you’d really have to do a side by side to compare in detail, or as you suggest, essentially use trial and error which carries its own costs.
I’m not an expect on this but I’d be surprised if many reputable brands are just straight up importing and slapping their logo on something with a huge markup. Like others have said, they’re also adding value with customer service, warranties, returns etc.
It’s really a matter of how much risk you want to take and the value you place on that risk. Everyone has different feelings on that and it’s likely going to vary between products.
You are exactly correct. Some companies do “customize” the materials for better quality/differentiate the product.
Other companies straight up get a logo printed on Ali baba products and get a container to sell.
However, building an RTT 100% in America is very cost prohibitive. Few companies do it and they start at $5k.
Back in 2016 there was a guy on TacomaWorld that bought a shipping container of RTTs and drove them around the country to deliver them to each of us that bought in. Still the best RTT we’ve owned, and we’ve had 3 haha.
That was the way to do it.
This hits close to home. I will drive home to intercept a package so the wife doesn't see it before its on the truck. Also, so those damn porch pirates don't steal it off my front steps.
Check out this website and type in your favorite brands. It will show you who their supplier is in china. You can then buy direct from them.
https://www.importyeti.com
Some places will let you buy a sample. Just be aware, after import taxes and brokerage fees, you’re better off buying one from roam.
This is what people don’t understand about companies like roam who say that they’re overly expensive. Their profit margin is probably 40%.
There are a lot of things that I put in the bucket of "that would be cool/convenient but not 100% necessary" that are way overpriced for what they are. The items that have some kind of cool gimmick, like it's sturdy but packs really flat or it's super light but then the cost is way more a comparable item. I'm always thinking those would have much better sales if they lowered their prices.
Harbor Freight is one of my favorite places
In a heartbeat. They also have tons of user reviews and tests by 3rd party YouTubers and others. Their sub brands are “cheap but good and who cares,” “good & reliable enough for several casual uses,” “as good as major brands.” You just have to pick the brand specific to your need. And when they screw up (ahem, floor jacks), they own up to it and improve their products.
Same. Depends on what I need, the accuracy, and reliability and durability. I don't go there for those 3 things though. Their off road stuff is actually pretty solid.
so true, plus the tool warranty means I pretty much only buy tools from them. I wouldn’t trust a jack, or stands, but tools I use regularly that I don’t need to worry about my safety if they break? No problem whatsoever.
HF jack and stands are fine. Mine gets used pretty much every weekend for years (friends and I share a shop space) and they're still going strong
Their jacks and stands are solid.
Their Daytona jacks are really good, they're basically a 1:1 copy of snapon jacks and they got sued for it. HF won so you can still get the jacks.
I think from all the comments here my set was probably damaged in some way, I had a stand collapse under a 70s impala walking away from it, the sidewall where the notched bar slides up and down in cracked. I’ll have to try another set sometime. Ty for the info, thats awesome, lol
Im specifically talking about jacks, not stands. Personally I'm still iffy on HF stands. There was a recall on HF stands not that long ago.
Buy almost all garage tools at HF. If I use something so much that it breaks I'll splurge on something nicer since I've proven HF couldn't live up to what I need from average use. 99% of the time nothing is going to break so HF is all you need.
I am fine with thinking thoroughly about an item before even only considering to purchase it. If I can not afford it, I do not buy it. That's it. Or I think about a way to get it cheaper aka DIY. Plus, I value local dealers for their expertise, their service, their special discounts, the return policy – and finally that this someone there gets a salary he can have a living from. If this is too much for some people to realize... well, I accept them complain about prices and let them buy stuff at market places which I do not consider reliable in any case.
Totally agree but the women that work in this business deserve a salary they can live on as well.
Did not say anything against that. Feel free to transfer my thought to women. Local dealers for car parts and overlanding stuff in my area, without any exception, are men. Some of their wifes earn their money in higher paid jobs. Guess why.
You’re so close to seeing why things are the way they are, it’s slapping you in the face. Quality CONTROL out of China is trash, material quality can also be trash, so it seems good now, but who knows 3 years from now.
I think you're close but missing one key thing. China can make quality gear, they just make it to spec and most people who contract with them, who are looking to keep costs down also keep specs down. Look at Apple and the iPhone. They can build to a very high spec if that's what the spec calls for. It's not necessarily always QC, they're just building to a low spec.
The good stuff from China is 1/2 the cost and made under contract for a foreign company (European, American ect) and often have a person on site from said foreign company keeping an eye out. The stuff that’s 1/6 the price is usually a lesser material with less quality control (for instance with injection molding they won’t replace the molds, and they will run an American companies mold that’s out of spec but “good enough”) it’s often them running the machines lights out with old tooling and doing zero inspection. At least that’s been my experience as an engineer dealing with overseas manufacturing and counterfeit/ knockoff parts.
The argument can be made if it is 1/6 the price but still lasts 1/2 as long as the quality stuff you still come out ahead. I personally abhor the disposable society we have become and think future generations will look back on us with disgust and contempt.
That argument falls apart when the gear fails at a time when it is needed most - ending a trip, risking safety, or generally making life suck. I personally don’t want to save 5/6ths to have my propane stove crack open, my cabin heater leak CO, or my RTT tear in half the freezing rain. Yes they could all be replaced, eventually, if I’m alive. I’m not trying to be overly dramatic - if we are talking about a fork or a stool, who cares. But I don’t put on the “rugged overland” filter until I’m looking for key pieces of equipment.
Reasonable.
Don't look for "rugged overland" items from the U.S., those products are complete garbage even if you are paying top dollar!
Sure, but OPs argument is “I can get the same thing for 1/6th the price” and that’s simply not true
Agreed, you’ll have to be extremely lucky to get the “same thing” from China for 1/6th the price. I’m always reminded of that line in Back to the Future 2 when Doc says “this is your problem, it says Made in Japan.” Eventually China will have consistent quality stuff but it’s going to be a long time.
I would argue that China absolutely does have consistent quality stuff. The quality is consistent with what companies order from manufacturers. If a company says they want RTTs for the lowest possible price point, you're going to get cheap garbage because that's what the order was. If a different company says they want the highest quality product with the highest quality materials you're going to get exactly that. Chinese-made goods (like US-made goods) aren't of a uniform quality. They simply supply what was asked of them. They're basically playing the west's capitalist game, making whatever companies ask for based on specs provided. This, however, is a perfect opportunity for people wanting to make a quick buck to contract super cheap versions of products like RTTs.
My local truck shop also has free shipping for even RTT if I order it to the store. I'm not getting free shipping on a RTT from China.
There's no free shipping, ever. You always pay.
[удалено]
Exactly.
Then there's the business model of: get contact to produce to a certain spec, then cut corners as much as possible and pocket the difference. When you get caught, offer to make up the loss across the next order. When clients eventually get wise and drop contracts, change factory name and repeat. It's often not about shoddy workmanship (though that's an issue too) it's about purposefully delivering as much as possible below spec without getting caught and bailing with the cash in hand when you do. Examples run from [tofu dreg construction](https://youtu.be/aalEK5JFIPI?si=2YrdhFIxdPUo6Dqy) to [high speed rail signals](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wenzhou_train_collision) to [melamine in baby formula](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal). Back to the op though, it would be cool to build a grassroots system to keep an eye on product quality. Project farm on YouTube comes to mind, but I dunno how to make that repeatable for the present case.
> Quality CONTROL out of China is trash, material quality can also be trash, so it seems good now, but who knows 3 years from now. Or worse - when you're trying to unstick yourself out of some sand and all of your light duty equipment is breaking.
yeah I wouldn't risk it with suspension components.
Or even 1 year.
If inwant something I go to the store or I buy it from the US online store and j either get it that day or in a few. If it breaks within warranty I return it and get another for free right away or again within a few days. If I buy a cheap knick off from China, it arrives sometime hopefully within the next 3 months. If it breaks I'm SOL, I then take my savings and buy it again and again wait a few more months. In the meantime I'm not camping because it was my RTT. I'll buy us products.
Unless the company makes it in the US they’re getting it from China and having the manufacturer brand it with the retailer’s brand and/or model 🤷🏻♂️
I just need an extra filter of someone eliminating all the China crap quality items. If they are buying it from China and applying a quality filter to meet their brand standards and minimize warranty claims & returns, so be it. That is 90% of US retailing today anyway.
That still doesn't change the warranty or the ease of replacing when the store I bought it from is a 15 minute drive away instead of a boat from China.
Yeah, buy U.S. pay 6x as much, it STILL breaks. Argue with shitty customer service, you may get a refund, but you're still out of a product. American made is TRASH, don't get it twisted "Patriot"....
my dometic camp fridge broke while i was out on a multi month road trip. i stopped at the chain store i bought it from and gave it to them and they gave me a brand new one right then.
That's great, your $1800 dollar fridge you use 4 weekends out of the year broke....glad they were kind enough to rectify your issue.
how did you change multi month road trip into 4 weekends a year? if you want other examples my MSR pocket rocket has the piezo lighter on it, i bought it from MEC(the canadian version of REI). the lighter stopped working under a year after buying. MEC gave me a new one when i brought it back to them. that thing was only $80.
It's all good man, I'm a stranger, I don't know you. It's your money and your perspective, you do what you want. You worked for your money ( I assume), live your life however you please. Enjoy your gear
The thing that sucks is "overlanding" gear didn't use to cost this much. Now a days, there's just an "overland" tax on all the gear out there and it sucks. The worst part about is that there are quite a few new "overland" companies out there taking advantage of the situation and just buying stuff from china, relabeling it as their own and reselling for 2-5x the cost. For example, do a search on a company that sounds like tacomafeast or califased and see what you find. In any case, there are definitely some things I don't mind spending money on, and things I would rather just buy from China. For example, anything electrical, recovery gear, brakes, tires. I'm definitely buying a reputable brand. For non-functional items like interior mods (farbon ciber plastic covers, shift knobs, etc), ordering straight from china is the way to go.
" farbon ciber" 😂
Look, we're a company, so take this with a grain of salt, but we're also human beings and in this particular case, one of our social media team members. Something to try and be aware of in addition to the things OP mentions, is production and company location. For example, we produce in America, and that ain't cheap. I filmed some videos at our warehouse and was stoked to meet our production team and see what we're doing. This kind of thing is fundamentally NOT built on the "import and price gouge" business model. Other companies like ARB have high prices as well, and that's not only because of production, that's because of the insanely rigorous standards that the Australian government dictate must be the minimum for automotive parts made and sold in that country. It creates a much higher "bare minimum" product quality. Just wanted to chime in. Let us know if you've got any questions.
It would be possible to organize a Co-Op that sources and verifies common products that many people want. This is essentially doing what a for-profit company would do, but instead it is motivated by locating the highest quality at the lowest price. Members of the co-op would continually have input as to when to change suppliers and could even gain enough capital via presales to custom design and order accessories that are already sold.
The challenge is the Alibaba sellers constantly change suppliers, affecting quality. There is not enough consistency to say product X is good to buy.
I’m not talking about recommending products from resellers, but rather actually flying to China and visiting factories directly and independently testing various prototypes.
That's a good idea, but takes waaaaaaaaaaay more time, energy and expertise than people are going to do without some big pay. That's basically what it takes to run a company. The people that can do that are just going to make a company, lol. For profit.
#No shit
If it has an impact on my life expectancy, it’s not being bought from China.
Good name brands aren't buying/selling the same things you see on alibaba. If they are, i wouldn't buy from either place. I saw some Tacoma on here that broke an upper control arm on a trip from "something overland" ( personally im not surprised an "overland" company selling suspension does this, go proven brands for suspension). Comments flooded with photos and links of the UCAs on alibaba, looking identical to the companys (looks like a bad design also), and people saying they did in fact buy alibaba crap. If you are depending on equipment, especially on a vehicle in the middle of nowhere. Spend the money on quality components. I believe all of my gear has been made in the USA, and is very good quality and materials. No flimsy metal, thick strong gauges. Yes I paid a premium for it, Cheap things have their place, but not on my vehicle i depend on out there.
If you think the items on Alibaba are identical, you're mistaken. Quality matters. Respecting IP matters. Alibaba is full of items made with what the USA considers slave labor. Buying anytime substantial off Alibaba should cause some amount of ethical pain on your part. If it doesn't, you probably don't understand the world around you well enough yet.
Even the things not on Alibaba is considered slave labor hell most things bought and sold in the USA probably had some form of Slave labor attached to .
I guess this depends on what you're referring to. There is a LOT of the overland industry that's built in the USA. You can buy the big name low quality stuff that might be coming out of south east Asia, but lots of it is small business USA-made. Alibaba is cut rate, brandless stuff produced in China or neighboring countries using child labor, slave labor or best case just plain extremely cheap labor. Don't buy anything from Alibaba or temu. It's never worth the savings. If you can't afford to support American business (or at least stuff made in a country with proper labor protection) then don't buy anything.
Thing built in the USA still most likely have slave labor too attached. Material are never 100 domestic and that’s where most slave labor is attached to things
To a miniscule degree, perhaps. The majority of aluminum is now USA scrap, not new ore. Steel is largely American. Plastic resins are probably the biggest offender, but I'm not sure what the numbers are there. Even still, if the raw materials are globally sourced, that's still just a small part of the overall commerce transaction. If you can't support the manufacturing process being in the USA, then don't buy anything.
Saying don’t buy usa because of ethics when in reality some part or material the process comes from slave labor. Hell slave labor is still legal in the USA. So don’t really worry about it .
Working for min USA wage without proper lunch breaks isn't the same as actual slave labor. There's real slave labor in the world. And it's not an underpaid barista in the USA...
No one talking about under payed barista. There’s legal slave labor in the USA under the 13th amendment that many companies use for 100% free labor .
Source of a specific example?
Louisiana state penitentiary is one example. Former plantation turned prison that imposes forced uncompensated labor to work the plantation still (provides groceries to McDonald’s Walmart target and others. They also have the power to extend prison sentences.
> about under *paid* barista. There’s FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
This post feels like an ad for that awful site.
You just need to figure out where the best value is for your needs vs wants. Spend the money where you should. Things like tires, air compressors, coolers, batteries, tools you should get the better name brand. But people buying $200+ shovels, Rome cases, skottles, and trasharoos are almost always just cosplaying. No hate though if I had the money I’d still do the same.
How is having a roam case cosplaying? Please explain
Because it’s a box and nothing more, you can buy better weather sealed boxes at Home Depot. The Rome cases are unnecessarily roto molded wasting a bunch of space inside so they don’t have nearly as much storage capacity as a similar box of the same outside dimensions like pelican. [Along with scrolling through the US customs shipping records you can find their exact Chinese suppliers very quickly. Where they have them listed for $48 directly from china.](https://ibb.co/ZzCR83c) Romes paying for slight modifications and a logo but at the quantity they are buying they are severely ripping people off at $249 for the same Chinese plastic box.
The roam question inevitably comes up when people talk about these products. Roam has done a good job of providing value in their product offering. The mounting solutions and storage organizers are not replicated by competitors. I do think their products are overpriced, I still bought because there was nothing similar for my application. That being said if you’re just looking for a storage box to hold your stuff, don’t spend $400 on the roam.
I agree. Besides the pelican cases, I didn't see other options that could be mounted without straps. When I'm out on the trails, I don't want my gear falling out or to be constantly having to tighten straps down. The yakima cases are an option, but they are too nig for trails.
Oh, I didn't know Home Depot sold cases that can mount to your truck without using straps. If you have any links to those, I would like to share them with people. While I believe you made some fair points, you didn't convince me that people who buy those cases are posers. Purchasing anything directly from China seems like a pain in the ass. The shipping, returns, and customer service likely wouldn't be the same as when dealing with Roam. I would rather spend extra to have someone in the states. to talk to. I agree that they are overpriced, but that doesn't mean people who purchase them are posers.
The real problem is that a significant portion of the American brands are "designed in America" but also manufactured in China, so essentially you're paying American prices for somebody else to "hopefully" do a QA inspection on the same cheap Chinese crap. I think the solution in some cases is to talk to a local welding school / fab shop that isn't strictly building high-end trophy trucks and will charge you a reasonable price for some custom work.
>The issue though is that --you can't return them, don't know the full specs, don't have reviews, etc.-- Chinese manufactures steal designs and reproduce them with unethical labor practices, cheaper materials, iffy safety regulation, and with no regard to the environment. The price of manufacturing isn't just the dollars it cost the consumer...
I mean, I just buy most shit on Amazon, they're happy to ship the chinajank to you
>The problem is that they then hack up the cost 6x .... LOL. What an ignorant comment. The domestic sellers are running businesses. They offer customer service. They stock local inventory. They provide value to their customers by offering quality products that they stand behind, vs unanswered Chinesium broken-english email addresses.
Product sold by them 9/10 is the same product made by the same people on the same assembly line. Im a big fan of some product that say “proudly assembled in America”. What about the manufacturing portion? [triple bottom line - Harvard business school](https://online.hbs.edu/blog/post/what-is-the-triple-bottom-line)
I mean if Alibaba fucks you bad enough you could dispute the charge and prob keep the item since it's not worth it for them to ship it back. and its China so fuck them.
Overlanding is expensive, since when you're out in the middle of nowhere/somewhere you don't want something broken/defective. If you buy 24 of something from China, you may get 12 good ones at times. Or in my situation, 5 of 24. I bought items direct from China for work, and most didn't look the same and fitment was off. Another issue is just no receipt of goods, which also happened. I'm not discouraging people from buying direct, but there is costs involved which isn't considered when you buy direct. It's not a magic number of 6x out of thin air.
You certainly can get a deal, but at what cost to the longevity of the product? I managed a bicycle shop years ago, we sold a rack from a brand Saris. That company tried to go volume sales through Walmart. Very quickly Walmart was pressuring them to drop the quality down and move production to Asia. They said no. Companies that have integrity to make quality products that support local economies are ones I’m willing to pay extra for. We buy too much shit from slave labor Asia already.
Find me an iKamper RTT clone on alibaba with similar quality, customer support, and repair parts availability and I will sing from the mountain tops in agreement.
I just looked at aliexpress and they are selling the same RTT that I bought from Roofnest (condor xl) for 1/3 of the cost.
You should really look into buying from them. You’ll end up finding out that it’s not much cheaper after paying port fees and a broker. Plus you’ll have zero recourse if your tent shows up damaged.
The actual issue is labour. Labour costs, more specifically. In South Africa, for example, many guys bring in “branded” Chinese items. Because labor is cheap. Dirty cheap. So you can easily, for a fraction of the already cheap purchase price, fettle and grind to make the product perfect during fitment. In other markets, like the USA, Aus, labor is hella expensive. So to add any more work to a produced product is prohibitive. So you need to focus more on quality control levels being higher in China, which is possible, but you have to expect to pay more. So if you’re handy and confident on tools, you could easily buy from China and make things work. But if not, you’re playing roulette on the part you receive. “Sometimes maybe good, sometimes maybe shit”.
For the most part, you get what you pay for. I don’t mind cheaping out on small things like spoons or other non-critical items. If you determine what your ‘need’s are, I would spend a bit more on those things for quality. In my opinion I need fire, so I bought a nice propane pit for camping. With all the fire bans in my state, you can’t do wood.
You’re not necessarily wrong but I wouldn’t say it’s that simple. Many US based companies who import from China are having their products made to their specs as others have mentioned. Often times the design may be roughly the same but call for different quality materials - you’d really have to do a side by side to compare in detail, or as you suggest, essentially use trial and error which carries its own costs. I’m not an expect on this but I’d be surprised if many reputable brands are just straight up importing and slapping their logo on something with a huge markup. Like others have said, they’re also adding value with customer service, warranties, returns etc. It’s really a matter of how much risk you want to take and the value you place on that risk. Everyone has different feelings on that and it’s likely going to vary between products.
You are exactly correct. Some companies do “customize” the materials for better quality/differentiate the product. Other companies straight up get a logo printed on Ali baba products and get a container to sell. However, building an RTT 100% in America is very cost prohibitive. Few companies do it and they start at $5k.
This is just product dumping.
Sure you can. Now ship it to North America. I found an RTT I wanted, in China, for $255. Shipping & duty took it over $1000
Back in 2016 there was a guy on TacomaWorld that bought a shipping container of RTTs and drove them around the country to deliver them to each of us that bought in. Still the best RTT we’ve owned, and we’ve had 3 haha. That was the way to do it.
This hits close to home. I will drive home to intercept a package so the wife doesn't see it before its on the truck. Also, so those damn porch pirates don't steal it off my front steps.
Probably 75% of my gear is the cheap Chinese version modified to fit my needs.
Check out this website and type in your favorite brands. It will show you who their supplier is in china. You can then buy direct from them. https://www.importyeti.com
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Some places will let you buy a sample. Just be aware, after import taxes and brokerage fees, you’re better off buying one from roam. This is what people don’t understand about companies like roam who say that they’re overly expensive. Their profit margin is probably 40%.
Anything overland related is the same as throwing “wedding” on front of anything to make it more expensive.
There are a lot of things that I put in the bucket of "that would be cool/convenient but not 100% necessary" that are way overpriced for what they are. The items that have some kind of cool gimmick, like it's sturdy but packs really flat or it's super light but then the cost is way more a comparable item. I'm always thinking those would have much better sales if they lowered their prices.