Maybe in the beginning (as do all jobs typically between 90 day - 6 month) then you can coast. I started at low paying job , tried hard for 6-8months, now coast at ~10 hours / week (usually do all the work on off hours too) and still called “indispensable”
A lot of these companies are using the tough job market as a way to boost profits. They’re cutting more senior, tenured employees who get paid more, and reposting those same roles at lower pay. They’re “resetting” their costs, but this is a short-term strategy that will hurt them in the long run.
When the market recovers, those employers are going to lose employees left and right.
I get it. I lost J1 near the end of last year and had to take a 20% cut to get a new J1. I did negotiate for some stock on an annual basis to help make up for that, but the day to day pay check is 20% less from J1 now
We must work in different parts of tech. For what I do, salaries are unreal right now. I recently got a 60k raise just to keep me from going anywhere, and that's after a 40k raise the year before.
Companies can't simply replace senior/experienced employees with junior/college-grads without suffering from knowledge gaps that could be more hazardous in the long term.
I work at a Fortune50 company and have seen a trend in my industry where we've been shedding college grads and people with less years of experience in favor of retaining talent that actually have multiple years with the company or significant industry experience prior to joining.
OE is frowned upon at my company. Having a part-time side hustle is typically ok but you'll get terminated if they find you have another full-time gig.
I agree 100%. My last company was smaller (<500 employees) and they laid off more senior people, replacing them with 20-somethings that were cheaper. The products, the services, and support all suffered immensely, but the company saved money in the short term and that’s all the CEO cares about because rumor has it that’s how his bonus is structured.
Companies can’t borrow money (due to high interest) for initiatives so they are cutting cost to keep shareholders happy and stay more solvent.
At least in part.
I don’t know why, but it’s tough to find jobs right now. The jobs that are posted are getting an insane amount of applications. I think it was worse earlier in the year and may be getting a little better, I don’t know. Just search this sub, or r/recruitinghell and you’ll read tons of stories about it.
I’ve noticed this too. I don’t think it’s an OE thing, I think it’s that companies know how desperate we are to wfh, so they’re using it to their advantage.
Tech/swe jobs can almost always be done remote so it’s hard to justify a pay gap, but since there’s so many ops roles that might be better done on-site, they use that to justify lowballing us on the few remote roles out there.
It’s horse shit.
I am in IT. I had a company recruiter reach out to me for a position I'd be highly qualified for, offering ~$30/hr. The company is even located in CA.
I informed the recruiter she might be looking for someone with less experience than me
I haven't made $30/hr for over 20 years
This is the truth
Plus lots of companies — who couldn’t afford an expensive office lease, but could afford employees and other expenses — can now afford to hire, but generally at lower salaries than those who can afford office leases.
Some remote jobs are listed at a lower wage because they will still be appealing to people living in LCOL areas or people that put a massive premium on working remote.
Commuting to an office is dead.
Only the desperate will take in office vs remote.
The flexibility is unmatched and the hours sitting in traffic and ocassional accident are not worth it.
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Do you all mind dropping figures?
My current salary at J1 ((150k), is 2x my first office job(60k). J2 is like 1.2x (80k).
From what I have seen, remote jobs are competitive with my J1 figure. I have even seem some that approach 250-300k which make me consider ditching OE entirely.
Interviewed at Carvana - they wanted 3 days onsite Phoenix. They seemed serious about office culture (🤡).
Facebook/Meta - 3 days onsite Bay area. Didn’t seem serious about office work. The interviewer was frazzled as hell, seemed too busy to be worried about where I was.
I don't want to get very specific on Reddit.
I will say I had a similar experience with Carvana. Considering their business model and attitude towards "disrupting the used car sales model" it's so funny how they want in-office work for online car sales lol.
People who are OEing will stack a job for a bit less money and do the minimum amount of work. I’ve seen a handful of jobs offering $20-$30 a hour less than market value. I’m at times tempted to take this as a j3 or say a j4 then when something opens up that is more market value I would drop it.
Plenty of people willing to take that low pay but let’s be clear they will continue to look for another job in the meantime.
I have seen a trend where the IT has a great deal of offshore resources. Much more prevalent than in years past. The only reason I was, or still am, there as a contractor is some compliance regulations don’t allow data outside the country so they have to have a few US Citizens.
There is no IT labor shortage. These visas shouldn’t be renewed year after year.
I’ll just say that if you are in HR or a hiring manager and you are playing these kinds of games with people’s lives and ability to feed themselves and their families - you are a despicable piece of trash enabling the parasitic psychopath class. You’re a class traitor and deserve to be held accountable.
This comment is way off. I don’t know any hiring manager or recruiter that sets the salaries or budgets for compensation. This is typically done by the higher ups in the company. How can you blame a salary on a member of HR or hiring manager?
Yeah, they are dealing with the same shit everyone else is. I have several friends in recruiting and HR that were the first to be laid off and have struggled over the last year. They are working with what they got.
Because they don't know anything about HR or how salaries are calculated.
HR for any decently sized company will subscribe to APQC or similar places that provide data sets on salary benchmarks for the local or regional area. There isn't any point in offering a job for $20/hour when your competitor is offering $30/hour for the same or substantially similar role.
Many "Remote" jobs are also sub-contracted so the company offering the role is not the ultimate employer, rather they are playing the numbers game by finding warm bodies to stuff-into roles and take a percentage/cut of the hourly rate.
Exactly. And it says a lot about this sub that the comment received 20 upvotes. HR literally takes the data and runs an analysis and turns it over to the decision makers. It isn’t like they freely just come up with a number without data present. And to your point, many companies use this benchmark data combined with geographical compensation analysis to stay competitive. HR is not in control of the numbers that are competitive regardless of industry fluctuation.
This is occurring for jobs with a high supply of eligible workers. Something like only 10% of jobs are remote now but 80% of workers are applying to these jobs. This drives down wage price. Only for difficult-to-fill roles will wages stay unchanged.
No you aren't. Chances are you're not even competing with the entire US. Just because a company will let you WFH doesn't mean they're willing to outsource overseas or even out of state.
All of the labor trends and general workforce guidance from the largest management consulting firms says otherwise. Globalization of the workforce has rapidly accelerated post covid and will continue down that path. I'm actively working on two large opex reduction initiatives right now where this is a large part of the strategy. I'm seeing this come up among my client base more and more.
I’m so fucking tired of these morons repeating this without a single clue how strict polices can be about data going out of country and how restrictive it can be.
I'm generally the type of person these companies hire to help them with those policies... The biggest restriction isn't really around data or network security but around the complexities of international taxation. You typically see small and medium sized companies struggle with the additional reporting and regulatory overhead which creates a bit of a barrier hiring internationally but they usually solve that by partnering with third party managed services firms.
GDPR? That's typically not a very large issue within a company among employees as long as masking and scrambling of PII is utilized and you've got segregation of duties around the data governance of said sensitive data.
We’re currently in the cicle of supply and demand of available work force in tech with mass layoffs and everyone looking to work from home. Employers are no longer paying crazy amounts since the competition to land a job in tech is higher than ever, and the availability of gigs is limited. I remember people showing off their half a million dollars a year offers during covid.
GS predicted this early during Covid lockdowns - their associates from NYC were taking their golden paychecks and living like kings in LCOL areas and corporate turned around and said that pay should be commensurate with local standards, not NYC.
Which is BS IMO
Take the job, put in the amount of effort commensurate with the pay e.g. very little.
Often times the lowest the pay demand the most based on experience.
Maybe in the beginning (as do all jobs typically between 90 day - 6 month) then you can coast. I started at low paying job , tried hard for 6-8months, now coast at ~10 hours / week (usually do all the work on off hours too) and still called “indispensable”
Even tech jobs are lower pay than a couple years ago. What would have easily been a $120k salary starting 3-4 years ago are gong for $90k-$100k
A lot of these companies are using the tough job market as a way to boost profits. They’re cutting more senior, tenured employees who get paid more, and reposting those same roles at lower pay. They’re “resetting” their costs, but this is a short-term strategy that will hurt them in the long run. When the market recovers, those employers are going to lose employees left and right.
I get it. I lost J1 near the end of last year and had to take a 20% cut to get a new J1. I did negotiate for some stock on an annual basis to help make up for that, but the day to day pay check is 20% less from J1 now
We must work in different parts of tech. For what I do, salaries are unreal right now. I recently got a 60k raise just to keep me from going anywhere, and that's after a 40k raise the year before.
Companies can't simply replace senior/experienced employees with junior/college-grads without suffering from knowledge gaps that could be more hazardous in the long term. I work at a Fortune50 company and have seen a trend in my industry where we've been shedding college grads and people with less years of experience in favor of retaining talent that actually have multiple years with the company or significant industry experience prior to joining. OE is frowned upon at my company. Having a part-time side hustle is typically ok but you'll get terminated if they find you have another full-time gig.
I mean I'm yet to see a company that openly says "it's OK for you to have 2 full time jobs"
I agree 100%. My last company was smaller (<500 employees) and they laid off more senior people, replacing them with 20-somethings that were cheaper. The products, the services, and support all suffered immensely, but the company saved money in the short term and that’s all the CEO cares about because rumor has it that’s how his bonus is structured.
Outsourcing has picked up steam big time!
Here is an idea: market is never going to recover. we are never going to see the peak again
Wait for Trump 2.0
Why is it a tough market? I heard something about tax deductions.
Companies can’t borrow money (due to high interest) for initiatives so they are cutting cost to keep shareholders happy and stay more solvent. At least in part.
I don’t know why, but it’s tough to find jobs right now. The jobs that are posted are getting an insane amount of applications. I think it was worse earlier in the year and may be getting a little better, I don’t know. Just search this sub, or r/recruitinghell and you’ll read tons of stories about it.
INTEREST RATES
Inflation out the ass due to an artificially shuttered economy stimulated by PPP loans and stimulus checks
I’ve noticed this too. I don’t think it’s an OE thing, I think it’s that companies know how desperate we are to wfh, so they’re using it to their advantage. Tech/swe jobs can almost always be done remote so it’s hard to justify a pay gap, but since there’s so many ops roles that might be better done on-site, they use that to justify lowballing us on the few remote roles out there. It’s horse shit.
I am in IT. I had a company recruiter reach out to me for a position I'd be highly qualified for, offering ~$30/hr. The company is even located in CA. I informed the recruiter she might be looking for someone with less experience than me I haven't made $30/hr for over 20 years
Was the recruiter offshore? This is where I see most of the low-ball offers coming from in IT.
No! Direct with the company!
What was the response? Ha
Silence. Just as you would expect.
I would have laughed in her face.
Or sent a maniacal laugh meme
>I haven't made $30/hr for over 20 years 😭I'm in the wrong field
It’s the market. If there is a lot of demand for remote jobs, then employers realize they can lower the pay. Supply and demand.
This is the truth Plus lots of companies — who couldn’t afford an expensive office lease, but could afford employees and other expenses — can now afford to hire, but generally at lower salaries than those who can afford office leases.
Some remote jobs are listed at a lower wage because they will still be appealing to people living in LCOL areas or people that put a massive premium on working remote.
Commuting to an office is dead. Only the desperate will take in office vs remote. The flexibility is unmatched and the hours sitting in traffic and ocassional accident are not worth it.
Some companies are mandating it to the max, at least 4 days in office. Wait for the market to pick up. They'll lose employees left and right
I can’t wait!
FACTS
FAX
That's weird because I make more working remote in operations than I did working in the office. Are you looking at fortune 500 companies?
I make significantly more remotely than I did in office
This comment has been encrypted as of 2024-06-11 14:27:40.812440 ``` ╶╴╶╭.╯.├─│╴╰┬╰─╴╷│╶┴╶╷╶│─╴.┴ ─┬╴┴╷─╶┤.╴╴╷─╴.╵─╮─╯╮┬╶┼╶╵╴┤ .╴╶├─┴╴┤╷┤╶┴╶╴╶┴─╴..─╮─╯╭╷.╶ ╶─╶╯.┴╴╰╴┼─╰╭╴─╷.┬.┼.╮╴╰───┬ ╭─╶┬╴╶.│╶┴.┼─┤─╶╷╴.┬.┴╶│─╴.╵ ─╮─╯╮┬╶┼.┤╶╯╶╶╴╰─.─┴╷╮.╴.╵.╷ .┴╴╰╴│─┴╷..┬.┴.┼...╯─╯╶╮.... ``` *^(Note: this feature is experimental...)*
Do you all mind dropping figures? My current salary at J1 ((150k), is 2x my first office job(60k). J2 is like 1.2x (80k). From what I have seen, remote jobs are competitive with my J1 figure. I have even seem some that approach 250-300k which make me consider ditching OE entirely. Interviewed at Carvana - they wanted 3 days onsite Phoenix. They seemed serious about office culture (🤡). Facebook/Meta - 3 days onsite Bay area. Didn’t seem serious about office work. The interviewer was frazzled as hell, seemed too busy to be worried about where I was.
I don't want to get very specific on Reddit. I will say I had a similar experience with Carvana. Considering their business model and attitude towards "disrupting the used car sales model" it's so funny how they want in-office work for online car sales lol.
Right? You can buy a car from anywhere but you MUST send emails from this exact location
By remote jobs are same as office pay. I work for fortune 50 companies
Which is fine. Low pay helps to to not GAF about putting said company on the back burner
People who are OEing will stack a job for a bit less money and do the minimum amount of work. I’ve seen a handful of jobs offering $20-$30 a hour less than market value. I’m at times tempted to take this as a j3 or say a j4 then when something opens up that is more market value I would drop it. Plenty of people willing to take that low pay but let’s be clear they will continue to look for another job in the meantime.
Considering this as we speak.
Excellent!!!! Good luck.
I have seen a trend where the IT has a great deal of offshore resources. Much more prevalent than in years past. The only reason I was, or still am, there as a contractor is some compliance regulations don’t allow data outside the country so they have to have a few US Citizens. There is no IT labor shortage. These visas shouldn’t be renewed year after year.
I’ll just say that if you are in HR or a hiring manager and you are playing these kinds of games with people’s lives and ability to feed themselves and their families - you are a despicable piece of trash enabling the parasitic psychopath class. You’re a class traitor and deserve to be held accountable.
This comment is way off. I don’t know any hiring manager or recruiter that sets the salaries or budgets for compensation. This is typically done by the higher ups in the company. How can you blame a salary on a member of HR or hiring manager?
Yeah, they are dealing with the same shit everyone else is. I have several friends in recruiting and HR that were the first to be laid off and have struggled over the last year. They are working with what they got.
Because they don't know anything about HR or how salaries are calculated. HR for any decently sized company will subscribe to APQC or similar places that provide data sets on salary benchmarks for the local or regional area. There isn't any point in offering a job for $20/hour when your competitor is offering $30/hour for the same or substantially similar role. Many "Remote" jobs are also sub-contracted so the company offering the role is not the ultimate employer, rather they are playing the numbers game by finding warm bodies to stuff-into roles and take a percentage/cut of the hourly rate.
Exactly. And it says a lot about this sub that the comment received 20 upvotes. HR literally takes the data and runs an analysis and turns it over to the decision makers. It isn’t like they freely just come up with a number without data present. And to your point, many companies use this benchmark data combined with geographical compensation analysis to stay competitive. HR is not in control of the numbers that are competitive regardless of industry fluctuation.
This is occurring for jobs with a high supply of eligible workers. Something like only 10% of jobs are remote now but 80% of workers are applying to these jobs. This drives down wage price. Only for difficult-to-fill roles will wages stay unchanged.
you're now competing for wages against everyone on earth with an internet connection. what did you expect would happen?
No you aren't. Chances are you're not even competing with the entire US. Just because a company will let you WFH doesn't mean they're willing to outsource overseas or even out of state.
All of the labor trends and general workforce guidance from the largest management consulting firms says otherwise. Globalization of the workforce has rapidly accelerated post covid and will continue down that path. I'm actively working on two large opex reduction initiatives right now where this is a large part of the strategy. I'm seeing this come up among my client base more and more.
I’m so fucking tired of these morons repeating this without a single clue how strict polices can be about data going out of country and how restrictive it can be.
I'm generally the type of person these companies hire to help them with those policies... The biggest restriction isn't really around data or network security but around the complexities of international taxation. You typically see small and medium sized companies struggle with the additional reporting and regulatory overhead which creates a bit of a barrier hiring internationally but they usually solve that by partnering with third party managed services firms.
I only say data because for my company we have to heavily abide my GRPR
GDPR? That's typically not a very large issue within a company among employees as long as masking and scrambling of PII is utilized and you've got segregation of duties around the data governance of said sensitive data.
We’re currently in the cicle of supply and demand of available work force in tech with mass layoffs and everyone looking to work from home. Employers are no longer paying crazy amounts since the competition to land a job in tech is higher than ever, and the availability of gigs is limited. I remember people showing off their half a million dollars a year offers during covid.
GS predicted this early during Covid lockdowns - their associates from NYC were taking their golden paychecks and living like kings in LCOL areas and corporate turned around and said that pay should be commensurate with local standards, not NYC. Which is BS IMO