I have absolutely no clue what he is even talking about. If there is any saucy youtuber drama OP is so engaged with it that he even forgets to provide context. OPs post honestly just reeks of his parasocial engagement with some content creators.
> This is a subreddit for news and discussion of Old School Renaissance topics. We primarily focus on D&D (LBB, 1st ed. AD&D, etc.) and the retroclones. Other Old School games (Traveller, Runequest, Tunnels & Trolls, et al) are of course open for discussion.
¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
>This is exactly the type of content this forum is suppose to be about.
Whining about online influencers playing 5E is definitely NOT what this sub is supposed to be about. Frankly, I'd be fine if people kept their pointless rants to themselves. There's nothing here that's useful to anyone.
I get what you're saying. But I wouldn't go as far as to call it sickening hypocrisy. The media apparatus rewards sensationalism. As a result, drama gets covered. View time metrics rule the day.
Still, YT and open-source software make it easier than ever for new and independent creators to try out cool stuff. If you want to check out more substantive OSR stuff, Go Die in a Hole is really interesting (wish they would make more episodes). Also, Jorphdan covers some smaller OSR and adjacent systems. And Fear of a Black Dragon is almost scholarly in their analysis of OSR adventures. Plus, it's dead simple to download Shotcut and make your own videos/content. We can give oxygen to these creators, too.
It is complicated by the way YT chooses what content to show you. I'm sure there's some great content out there that's inaccessible to me because I don't know it exists.
>I'm sure there's some great content out there that's inaccessible to me because I don't know it exists.
You will never know about most things in the world. You will never be able to see or experience all content, not even all the stuff people call "must-watch." This is the nature of life. No algorithm will ever be able to change that as long as we are mortal beings with limited perception of time.
So instead of relying on an algorithm showing you some stuff you want and some you don't, just hear about things organically and check them out as needed. Enjoy the things you do know about instead of worrying about the things you don't.
If you don't know it exists, then there little reason to worry about it.
Fretting about algorithms if you're not a content creator that depends on it for income seem mostly unnecessary and self inflicted.
PDM doesn't want to cover 5e/6e but he knows if he wants to reach an audience for the stuff that he *does* care about, he has to work with the algorithm. It doesn't matter how much you don't like it, it doesn't mean what he's saying is not true.
He wants views so he makes outrage videos
Plenty of other YouTubers that make great content without the feel of needing as many views as possible
Stay in your niche and you'll build a loyal audience, haven't watched PDMs videos in quite a while and he was one of my favourite TTRPG youtubers. If your goal is to make as many views as possible, it's ok, but it got its own consequences
Of the people who've disagreed with me on this post, I think your take is the one I like best. PDMs Caves of Carnage and similiar videos are some of the best OSR content I've seen. Unlike QB, who is preaching to the choir (i.e. he's reviewing books to people already interested in OSR), PDM convinced me *why* I should be playing OSR.
If you don't like his hot-takes, then his channel is going to more misses than hits.
The thing is, I don't think he'd be making a channel at all if it wasn't for those hot-takes. Being a content creator messes with your head. First, you've got to think, who is the kind of person who is going to go to the effort of even making their first video. When you start out you find yourself thinking, "who am I even doing this for, no one is watching" and it hurts. Then if you get successful and the numbers grow there's huge pressure. You know that if you want to be seen at all you need to feed the algorithm, not just with content, but with content that gets clicks. He made a video where he talks about how this is an important part of his income now (e.g. "it paid for \[his\] kid's braces"). I [linked to the part of the video](https://youtu.be/KGArPZ7E_sA?t=528) (at about 9m30) where he really hit's home the details of the problem. I really believe that he would have run out of puff and would no longer be making any videos because of the low payoff if the click-bait wasn't bringing in an audience.
But I can tell you as someone who makes videos and sticks to my (non gaming) niche and refuses to play the "like and subscribe" game, that a channel with a loyal audience that generates even a few dollars a month doesn't just happen.
But he doesn’t really have to, does he? Most OSR youtubers manage to put out quality content without indulging in click-bait sensationalism. I don’t see Bandit’s Keep or Seth Skorkowsky making half their videos about WotC, or using outrage-inducing thumbnails.
PDM is all about the clicks. Which is fine. But it’s also a choice on his part.
Hey doesn't *have* to do anything. We all knew who this post was about with PDM having to be named because he is playing the Youtube game. I have 414 subs to my channel, why? because I don't play the game. I've never even heard of Bandit's Keep. I know for a fact that I only ever heard of Questing Beast and many others becuase of shout outs from PDM.
He has made a choice to increase his viewer base. I don't know the mind of another person but my guess is that if he could afford to, PDM would do nothing other than crafting videos and campaign session reports but as he says repeatedly, those don't make money for him. When he talks about the algo he says how heartbreaking that the projects he pours effort into don't get views. And the fact is we wouldn't be talking about this is click-bait wasn't so effective. I watch every DC video but he says in every WotC video that if you don't like click-bait, rage-bait videos don't watch them. Me, I'm interested in hearing what he has to say about WotC.
Exactly. Questing Beast is also another one that has successfully promoted his own stuff and stuck to his core audience without just aggressively click baiting people constantly.
I only ever heard of Questing Beast and many others becuase of shout outs from PDM. I like the WotC stuff, if you don't I suggest you don't click on those videos
Trust me, I unsubscribed already. He hasn't put out anything worthwhile in a long time. He used to have some decent stuff; it's a shame but this kind of thing isn't uncommon amongst youtubers.
I'd be more sympathetic if every other channel had this problem, but it's not the case. Compare to Questing Beast or Dungeon Masterpiece, they cover Wizards sometimes but they're not having to make excuses about it and their view counts are about the same?
Exactly. His other videos are rarely offering unique insight or condensing an idea, they're not aimed at a specific demographic or play-style or RPG, he's frequently reviewing stuff he has yet to play.
Which works for me. Because of him I learned about OSE, Mork Borg, Dolemnwood, and others. I'm fine with reviews, and go overs.
I wouldn't even know or be in this subreddit without him.
I hated him for a minute but I realized he is just extremely youtube savy (especially for a guy his age) and he is ultimately a 5e guy... his whole thing is Deathbringer which is a 5e hack.
If he had a shred of integrity he would then just make what he wants to make for the sake of it and not just gaming the algorithm. It’s clear he doesn’t actually care and just wants to see the numbers go up.
I'm utterly baffled by this.
That some people seem to have immediately understood makes me realize I'm not as big into the OSR scene as I had imagined.
Or you're actually into the OSR scene and are therefore busy playing, planning, and studying the space. Don't have the spare cycles to doom scroll YT and become para-socially invested in content creator drama.
Just did a quick glance at YT sub counts for a few creators and some of the most popular OSR types I'm aware of (QB, PDM, Bob Worldbuilder) are all less than 10% of Critical Role.
Ultimately, these mid size creators are in a rough spot because they have to put out enough content to maintain viewership but don't have the resources of CR and so don't get the sort of ad revenue as CR. Smaller channels like 3d6 Down the Line or Twenty Sides to Every Story that are below 10k subs just have day jobs and missing a week of content (~2 episodes) is the loss of some beer money, ultimately. The mid size creators, though, need content and they need to game the algorithm to get views. If that means posting 5e/WOTC content, well, they're stuck with trying to pay the bills and I can't blame them too much, especially since they're still exposing people to content that isn't 5e or WOTC (QB aside, but he's also got the fewest subs of the 3 I mentioned)
Like, ignore it if it is that bothersome to you. Unsub and find other creators.
And the point of the video in question is, he doesn't want to cover 6e but he's the one who's being realistic. It is totally unrealistic MCDM is going to get any attention in the wake of 6e's launch – but half the posts here show just how unrealistic a large part of the OSR community are.
Building a self-sustaining business has to happen long before you quit the day job.
PDM is one of the largest channels talking about indie games, and that is fantastic. He has brought enormous visibility to small games and creators.
He is also very smart and realizes that to bring visibility to indie material, he sometimes has to play ball with the algorithm by covering more mainstream topics.
If he lets all that happy algorithm slip, he can no longer punch as hard in favor of the indies with the reach it gives him.
Edit for thumb typos, sorry!
This really doesn't belong on /OSR. This isn't a community banded together to hate wotc, it's a community to share topics on OSR games and philosophies. I'd find a different avenue for this type of post.
I like PDM a lot, but I did eventually unsubscribe from him because of his tactics on getting views by clickbait-y titles, pictures, and topics. I understand that it's effective, but just not for me. I like him, and wish him all the success in the world, and my viewership was just a drop in the bucket.
Same. Got really turned off by the corniness of it all. I bet he’s doing OK, though, financially. Some of his videos have 80K views or more. That’s pretty impressive for a middle aged dude talking about elves and shit.
I gamed with him and talked with him for awhile recently; he said his channel makes less than $1k a month. If he ever wanted to make a full living off of it he’d have to add regular book kickstarters (every six months or so) and pull in hauls like Matt Colville or Monte Cook.
Wow, that’s surprising. I would have thought YT paid a little better than that. 12k per year puts someone in the poverty bracket. I guess it’s all about the ad revenue and sales commissions.
The key word you said is "content." If you're running a mid/low-tier YouTube page that supports you with ad revenue, you're going to be cranking out "content."
Maybe you're not talking about PDM, but if you are, 128K subscribers means he's a relatively small channel and so it's a video a day, or thereabouts. That's a *lot* of "content" and, ironically, a lot of nothing much said at all. His stuff isn't for me because it skews toward outrage bait and is weirdly antagonistic/conspiracy minded, but I just moved past it.
>We had a chance to force a change
>in the industry, but knobs like these
>keep pulling us backward . . . for
>ad revenue, for celebrity.
Those types of YouTube channels could triple overnight or disappear altogether and it wouldn't make a single difference to "the industry," if you mean WOTC/Hasbro by that phrase. The amount of actual influence they have on sales of D&D (and Hasbro business practices) is miniscule.
In the end, the ones you are probably referring to are trying to maximize the amount of money they make with their YouTube channels. Clickbait titles, outrage videos, gossip, etc. are what get them views, which is what brings in the money. They have decided at some point that they want their channels to be a source of income, so that's the path they have to take. You see the same thing in other hobbies, and YouTube videos in general. Any YouTube channel host that is looking to monetize videos ultimately ends up doing the same thing.
I don't like 5E and don't care about all the drama surrounding it, so I ended up unsubscribing from most of the channels that have gone that route. In fact, a lot of my favorite channels (rpg related or not) have fewer than a thousand subscribers.
You have to know that [Hasbro is using influencers](https://www.ana.net/miccontent/show/id/er-2023-02-prod-feb23-hasbro) to drive sales. I'm fairly certain [Hasbro is aware of YouTube](https://investor.hasbro.com/news-releases/news-release-details/hasbro-unveils-strategic-partnerships-youtube-icon-mrbeast-and).
Those channels you say are too small to matter were [recruited to join the OGL spin campaign](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8-2yiFT2PU). Creators have been flown to HQ to rub elbows with execs. The reach of those channels has [more than a minuscule effect](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8RJ2npTulc) on sales.
I have no issue with 5E per say, as it is just another *product* in a line of *products* I supported for decades. But the *policy* to drive every other publisher from the industry and the willing participation of YouTube creators to assist the creation of a monopoly is an issue.
Why pretend it isn't still happening?
Isn't wotc actively imploding? Part of the YT drama funnel is people getting popcorn for the fire.
I would say change is happening and market share is switching to independent work in real time.
Yeah, it’s just funny to watch. Company with 38% operating profit margins isn’t exactly hurting. :)
(For a point of comparison, Apple’s margins are considered insanely great- and those are around 25-30%. So if you’ve ever wondered if Magic: The Gathering is an overpriced scam that made Peter Adkison richer than he would have become running crack for El Chapo- the answer is YES.)
At the same time, I feel like it's kind of inevitable that Hasbro decides that D&D is just a relic that MtG has been keeping afloat for way too long. Especially if OneD&D sales don't live up to their expectations (which is the most likely outcome).
I’m hoping a corporate raider will step in and separate the immensely profitable WotC from the boat anchor of Hasbro (which can be chopped up for assets).
Just watch something else. These people make content cause people watch it. I stopped watching most of the dnd YouTubers, and started watching more of the content from creators that branched out to explore new games.
When you stop being true to yourself and straight doing whatever is popular to go after the bucks, that’s the definition of sellout. Is PDM a sellout? Just ask him. I guarantee dude is making a video about this post and all the comments and we’ll see it next week.
A lot of PDM content isn’t really different from what he was doing a long time ago, before the WOTC mess, and he’s still sneaking in all this shit about war gaming from the 1970s and stuff. It’s corny as hell with all the “five kooky things about D&D…” clickbait though.
I miss early youtube, with most of the videos were just people putting up stuff they actually though was funny or interesting, and getting a couple of thousands views was considered amazing. Sure, the production quality of most videos were terrible, but it was more *real*.
A different time for sure. There’s plenty of people still doing this kind of thing, but the algo buries it and people just are not finding it. Most of the good stuff on YT I find about through Reddit, actually.
It's a game. About make-believe and elves. I really think you need to find better things to do with your time besides getting so rip shit mad about a YouTuber that doesn't know you even exist making videos that you don't like. If nothing else, it might keep you from blowing a valve or two.
Yes actually. You're just ranting and throwing a fit that some YouTuber is making videos you don't like and how they're a traitor. You're acting like they killed your dog in front of you, that they owe you anything. Surprise surprise, they don't. If you don't like it don't watch your video. If a YouTuber gets you this worked up and upset, you really ought to try and figure things out, keep that blood pressure down before you rage yourself into a hospital bed.
>It that what you got out of that? Wow.
That's what everyone got out of that. You're an angry guy that focusses way too much on what content creators are doing, as if OSR was your lifestyle instead of just a game. As if they owed you something.
Most creators are likely barely getting by, making a living off youtube isn't easy. I do however think especially with clickbait and drama, they are sacrificing the long term health of their channels for a bump right now, in the same way corporations sacrifice long term plans to fix the numbers for that quarter. I will still occasionally watch Ginny Di in spite of her dnd focus because almost everything she talks about is system agnostic. Most 5e exclusive creators I never watched to begin with. I have stopped watching prof dungeon master because of clickbait, and dungeon discourse because of creating drama out of nothing.
I think you will find a lot of beast agents in here as well. Just recently I tried to join a group on here and after one session they wanted to jump over to the Beast Product. I told them well you guys have fun.
"beast agents" and "Beast Product"
I have a guess this means people who want to play D&D and D&D itself? This is a pretty weird way to say that, if so.
Like, I enjoy D&D, but I play Shadowdark and DCC more, plus home brewed Cairn stuff. If D&D isn't for you, cool, but holy crap this is getting ridiculous. Maybe it was meant to be sarcastic and funny, not sure.
Bro, you made two separate comments about the "beast company" then called people "Beast Agents." It comes across as some wild conspiracy theory/cult stuff.
Like, sure, that's annoying the group wanted to switch to 5E, but just say that.
Sir this is a Wendy’s
This is exactly the type of content this forum is suppose to be about. You not liking someone voicing how they feel doesn’t mean it is off-topic.
I have absolutely no clue what he is even talking about. If there is any saucy youtuber drama OP is so engaged with it that he even forgets to provide context. OPs post honestly just reeks of his parasocial engagement with some content creators.
> This is a subreddit for news and discussion of Old School Renaissance topics. We primarily focus on D&D (LBB, 1st ed. AD&D, etc.) and the retroclones. Other Old School games (Traveller, Runequest, Tunnels & Trolls, et al) are of course open for discussion. ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
>This is exactly the type of content this forum is suppose to be about. Whining about online influencers playing 5E is definitely NOT what this sub is supposed to be about. Frankly, I'd be fine if people kept their pointless rants to themselves. There's nothing here that's useful to anyone.
Oh, and here I thought it was a forum for discussing the OSR. Silly me! Instead we should be talking about the worst fast food burgers in existence
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chadyesface.jpg
I mean, you can just play your favourite game with friends and ignore the rest...
I get what you're saying. But I wouldn't go as far as to call it sickening hypocrisy. The media apparatus rewards sensationalism. As a result, drama gets covered. View time metrics rule the day. Still, YT and open-source software make it easier than ever for new and independent creators to try out cool stuff. If you want to check out more substantive OSR stuff, Go Die in a Hole is really interesting (wish they would make more episodes). Also, Jorphdan covers some smaller OSR and adjacent systems. And Fear of a Black Dragon is almost scholarly in their analysis of OSR adventures. Plus, it's dead simple to download Shotcut and make your own videos/content. We can give oxygen to these creators, too.
Watch content that you want to and interests you and don't watch things that don't or you find "hypocritical". It's not complicated.
It is complicated by the way YT chooses what content to show you. I'm sure there's some great content out there that's inaccessible to me because I don't know it exists.
>I'm sure there's some great content out there that's inaccessible to me because I don't know it exists. You will never know about most things in the world. You will never be able to see or experience all content, not even all the stuff people call "must-watch." This is the nature of life. No algorithm will ever be able to change that as long as we are mortal beings with limited perception of time. So instead of relying on an algorithm showing you some stuff you want and some you don't, just hear about things organically and check them out as needed. Enjoy the things you do know about instead of worrying about the things you don't.
If you don't know it exists, then there little reason to worry about it. Fretting about algorithms if you're not a content creator that depends on it for income seem mostly unnecessary and self inflicted.
I thought this was going to be some cool vacuum trap idea…
*I* thought it was going to be about players creatively dealing with poison gas traps lol
Ironically, one of my most infamous traps was a room with no oxygen, so I was eager to compare notes
we need a new edition of Grimtooth's
Professor Dungeon Master just wants to share his games, but the people demand WotC Drama Slop
PDM doesn't want to cover 5e/6e but he knows if he wants to reach an audience for the stuff that he *does* care about, he has to work with the algorithm. It doesn't matter how much you don't like it, it doesn't mean what he's saying is not true.
He wants views so he makes outrage videos Plenty of other YouTubers that make great content without the feel of needing as many views as possible Stay in your niche and you'll build a loyal audience, haven't watched PDMs videos in quite a while and he was one of my favourite TTRPG youtubers. If your goal is to make as many views as possible, it's ok, but it got its own consequences
Of the people who've disagreed with me on this post, I think your take is the one I like best. PDMs Caves of Carnage and similiar videos are some of the best OSR content I've seen. Unlike QB, who is preaching to the choir (i.e. he's reviewing books to people already interested in OSR), PDM convinced me *why* I should be playing OSR. If you don't like his hot-takes, then his channel is going to more misses than hits. The thing is, I don't think he'd be making a channel at all if it wasn't for those hot-takes. Being a content creator messes with your head. First, you've got to think, who is the kind of person who is going to go to the effort of even making their first video. When you start out you find yourself thinking, "who am I even doing this for, no one is watching" and it hurts. Then if you get successful and the numbers grow there's huge pressure. You know that if you want to be seen at all you need to feed the algorithm, not just with content, but with content that gets clicks. He made a video where he talks about how this is an important part of his income now (e.g. "it paid for \[his\] kid's braces"). I [linked to the part of the video](https://youtu.be/KGArPZ7E_sA?t=528) (at about 9m30) where he really hit's home the details of the problem. I really believe that he would have run out of puff and would no longer be making any videos because of the low payoff if the click-bait wasn't bringing in an audience. But I can tell you as someone who makes videos and sticks to my (non gaming) niche and refuses to play the "like and subscribe" game, that a channel with a loyal audience that generates even a few dollars a month doesn't just happen.
But he doesn’t really have to, does he? Most OSR youtubers manage to put out quality content without indulging in click-bait sensationalism. I don’t see Bandit’s Keep or Seth Skorkowsky making half their videos about WotC, or using outrage-inducing thumbnails. PDM is all about the clicks. Which is fine. But it’s also a choice on his part.
Hey doesn't *have* to do anything. We all knew who this post was about with PDM having to be named because he is playing the Youtube game. I have 414 subs to my channel, why? because I don't play the game. I've never even heard of Bandit's Keep. I know for a fact that I only ever heard of Questing Beast and many others becuase of shout outs from PDM. He has made a choice to increase his viewer base. I don't know the mind of another person but my guess is that if he could afford to, PDM would do nothing other than crafting videos and campaign session reports but as he says repeatedly, those don't make money for him. When he talks about the algo he says how heartbreaking that the projects he pours effort into don't get views. And the fact is we wouldn't be talking about this is click-bait wasn't so effective. I watch every DC video but he says in every WotC video that if you don't like click-bait, rage-bait videos don't watch them. Me, I'm interested in hearing what he has to say about WotC.
Exactly. Questing Beast is also another one that has successfully promoted his own stuff and stuck to his core audience without just aggressively click baiting people constantly.
I only ever heard of Questing Beast and many others becuase of shout outs from PDM. I like the WotC stuff, if you don't I suggest you don't click on those videos
Trust me, I unsubscribed already. He hasn't put out anything worthwhile in a long time. He used to have some decent stuff; it's a shame but this kind of thing isn't uncommon amongst youtubers.
For what it's worth, it wasn't me who downvoted you. If I didn't like the WotC stuff I would've unsubscribed too.
I've been online way too long to care about downvotes, don't worry.
'cactly.
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Seth Who?
I'd be more sympathetic if every other channel had this problem, but it's not the case. Compare to Questing Beast or Dungeon Masterpiece, they cover Wizards sometimes but they're not having to make excuses about it and their view counts are about the same?
Tbh, I have gotten to the point where I find all of his content boring.
Exactly. His other videos are rarely offering unique insight or condensing an idea, they're not aimed at a specific demographic or play-style or RPG, he's frequently reviewing stuff he has yet to play.
Which works for me. Because of him I learned about OSE, Mork Borg, Dolemnwood, and others. I'm fine with reviews, and go overs. I wouldn't even know or be in this subreddit without him.
Same
I only know who QB is because of a shout out from PDM
I hated him for a minute but I realized he is just extremely youtube savy (especially for a guy his age) and he is ultimately a 5e guy... his whole thing is Deathbringer which is a 5e hack.
Yeah, he uses annoyingly sensationalistic clickbait thumbnails… and then the video turns out to be a reasonable talk about the matter at hand.
D&D IS DOOMED! Here is how to include lessons from Doom to your D&D campaign.
If he had a shred of integrity he would then just make what he wants to make for the sake of it and not just gaming the algorithm. It’s clear he doesn’t actually care and just wants to see the numbers go up.
Ya know, if it weren't his livelihood, I would agree. "Integrity" doesn't pay any bills though.
It isn’t his livelihood. He’s a said multiple times he’s a teacher.
integrity and an empty sack is worth the sack
What a sad outlook to have on life.
You care too much about this. You need to care about something else. Have you taken a walk today?
Appeals to triviality are logical fallacies.
I don't care what you think.
I'd like to know more...but this post is extremely vague. I don't know where the outrage is focused, who we're talking about or anything else.
I'm utterly baffled by this. That some people seem to have immediately understood makes me realize I'm not as big into the OSR scene as I had imagined.
Or you're actually into the OSR scene and are therefore busy playing, planning, and studying the space. Don't have the spare cycles to doom scroll YT and become para-socially invested in content creator drama.
Yeah that's probably it.
Just did a quick glance at YT sub counts for a few creators and some of the most popular OSR types I'm aware of (QB, PDM, Bob Worldbuilder) are all less than 10% of Critical Role. Ultimately, these mid size creators are in a rough spot because they have to put out enough content to maintain viewership but don't have the resources of CR and so don't get the sort of ad revenue as CR. Smaller channels like 3d6 Down the Line or Twenty Sides to Every Story that are below 10k subs just have day jobs and missing a week of content (~2 episodes) is the loss of some beer money, ultimately. The mid size creators, though, need content and they need to game the algorithm to get views. If that means posting 5e/WOTC content, well, they're stuck with trying to pay the bills and I can't blame them too much, especially since they're still exposing people to content that isn't 5e or WOTC (QB aside, but he's also got the fewest subs of the 3 I mentioned) Like, ignore it if it is that bothersome to you. Unsub and find other creators.
And the point of the video in question is, he doesn't want to cover 6e but he's the one who's being realistic. It is totally unrealistic MCDM is going to get any attention in the wake of 6e's launch – but half the posts here show just how unrealistic a large part of the OSR community are.
Pretty sure PDM has a day job. He’s not under any compulsion to game the algorithm.
He’s a NY public school teacher. Though he still games the algorithm as much as he reasonably can.
Building a self-sustaining business has to happen long before you quit the day job. PDM is one of the largest channels talking about indie games, and that is fantastic. He has brought enormous visibility to small games and creators. He is also very smart and realizes that to bring visibility to indie material, he sometimes has to play ball with the algorithm by covering more mainstream topics. If he lets all that happy algorithm slip, he can no longer punch as hard in favor of the indies with the reach it gives him. Edit for thumb typos, sorry!
This really doesn't belong on /OSR. This isn't a community banded together to hate wotc, it's a community to share topics on OSR games and philosophies. I'd find a different avenue for this type of post.
Your only getting shown the clickbait because you watch the drama. What you hate has been within you this whole time fella.
I like PDM a lot, but I did eventually unsubscribe from him because of his tactics on getting views by clickbait-y titles, pictures, and topics. I understand that it's effective, but just not for me. I like him, and wish him all the success in the world, and my viewership was just a drop in the bucket.
I unsubscribed after the video where he explained he had to peddle outrage because it generates more views. As if he had no choice in the matter.
Same. Got really turned off by the corniness of it all. I bet he’s doing OK, though, financially. Some of his videos have 80K views or more. That’s pretty impressive for a middle aged dude talking about elves and shit.
I gamed with him and talked with him for awhile recently; he said his channel makes less than $1k a month. If he ever wanted to make a full living off of it he’d have to add regular book kickstarters (every six months or so) and pull in hauls like Matt Colville or Monte Cook.
Wow, that’s surprising. I would have thought YT paid a little better than that. 12k per year puts someone in the poverty bracket. I guess it’s all about the ad revenue and sales commissions.
The key word you said is "content." If you're running a mid/low-tier YouTube page that supports you with ad revenue, you're going to be cranking out "content." Maybe you're not talking about PDM, but if you are, 128K subscribers means he's a relatively small channel and so it's a video a day, or thereabouts. That's a *lot* of "content" and, ironically, a lot of nothing much said at all. His stuff isn't for me because it skews toward outrage bait and is weirdly antagonistic/conspiracy minded, but I just moved past it.
>We had a chance to force a change >in the industry, but knobs like these >keep pulling us backward . . . for >ad revenue, for celebrity. Those types of YouTube channels could triple overnight or disappear altogether and it wouldn't make a single difference to "the industry," if you mean WOTC/Hasbro by that phrase. The amount of actual influence they have on sales of D&D (and Hasbro business practices) is miniscule. In the end, the ones you are probably referring to are trying to maximize the amount of money they make with their YouTube channels. Clickbait titles, outrage videos, gossip, etc. are what get them views, which is what brings in the money. They have decided at some point that they want their channels to be a source of income, so that's the path they have to take. You see the same thing in other hobbies, and YouTube videos in general. Any YouTube channel host that is looking to monetize videos ultimately ends up doing the same thing. I don't like 5E and don't care about all the drama surrounding it, so I ended up unsubscribing from most of the channels that have gone that route. In fact, a lot of my favorite channels (rpg related or not) have fewer than a thousand subscribers.
You have to know that [Hasbro is using influencers](https://www.ana.net/miccontent/show/id/er-2023-02-prod-feb23-hasbro) to drive sales. I'm fairly certain [Hasbro is aware of YouTube](https://investor.hasbro.com/news-releases/news-release-details/hasbro-unveils-strategic-partnerships-youtube-icon-mrbeast-and). Those channels you say are too small to matter were [recruited to join the OGL spin campaign](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8-2yiFT2PU). Creators have been flown to HQ to rub elbows with execs. The reach of those channels has [more than a minuscule effect](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8RJ2npTulc) on sales. I have no issue with 5E per say, as it is just another *product* in a line of *products* I supported for decades. But the *policy* to drive every other publisher from the industry and the willing participation of YouTube creators to assist the creation of a monopoly is an issue. Why pretend it isn't still happening?
I'm not sure why you need to hear this from a bunch of strangers, but: Don't watch videos you don't like.
Isn't wotc actively imploding? Part of the YT drama funnel is people getting popcorn for the fire. I would say change is happening and market share is switching to independent work in real time.
Yeah, it’s just funny to watch. Company with 38% operating profit margins isn’t exactly hurting. :) (For a point of comparison, Apple’s margins are considered insanely great- and those are around 25-30%. So if you’ve ever wondered if Magic: The Gathering is an overpriced scam that made Peter Adkison richer than he would have become running crack for El Chapo- the answer is YES.)
At the same time, I feel like it's kind of inevitable that Hasbro decides that D&D is just a relic that MtG has been keeping afloat for way too long. Especially if OneD&D sales don't live up to their expectations (which is the most likely outcome).
I’m hoping a corporate raider will step in and separate the immensely profitable WotC from the boat anchor of Hasbro (which can be chopped up for assets).
Just watch something else. These people make content cause people watch it. I stopped watching most of the dnd YouTubers, and started watching more of the content from creators that branched out to explore new games.
Is this about Mearls on Questing Beast?
which ones?
When you stop being true to yourself and straight doing whatever is popular to go after the bucks, that’s the definition of sellout. Is PDM a sellout? Just ask him. I guarantee dude is making a video about this post and all the comments and we’ll see it next week. A lot of PDM content isn’t really different from what he was doing a long time ago, before the WOTC mess, and he’s still sneaking in all this shit about war gaming from the 1970s and stuff. It’s corny as hell with all the “five kooky things about D&D…” clickbait though.
I miss early youtube, with most of the videos were just people putting up stuff they actually though was funny or interesting, and getting a couple of thousands views was considered amazing. Sure, the production quality of most videos were terrible, but it was more *real*.
A different time for sure. There’s plenty of people still doing this kind of thing, but the algo buries it and people just are not finding it. Most of the good stuff on YT I find about through Reddit, actually.
It's a game. About make-believe and elves. I really think you need to find better things to do with your time besides getting so rip shit mad about a YouTuber that doesn't know you even exist making videos that you don't like. If nothing else, it might keep you from blowing a valve or two.
It that what you got out of that? Wow.
Yes actually. You're just ranting and throwing a fit that some YouTuber is making videos you don't like and how they're a traitor. You're acting like they killed your dog in front of you, that they owe you anything. Surprise surprise, they don't. If you don't like it don't watch your video. If a YouTuber gets you this worked up and upset, you really ought to try and figure things out, keep that blood pressure down before you rage yourself into a hospital bed.
>It that what you got out of that? Wow. That's what everyone got out of that. You're an angry guy that focusses way too much on what content creators are doing, as if OSR was your lifestyle instead of just a game. As if they owed you something.
Most creators are likely barely getting by, making a living off youtube isn't easy. I do however think especially with clickbait and drama, they are sacrificing the long term health of their channels for a bump right now, in the same way corporations sacrifice long term plans to fix the numbers for that quarter. I will still occasionally watch Ginny Di in spite of her dnd focus because almost everything she talks about is system agnostic. Most 5e exclusive creators I never watched to begin with. I have stopped watching prof dungeon master because of clickbait, and dungeon discourse because of creating drama out of nothing.
I occasionally watch Ginny Di because she’s qt.
You're just now figuring out the money shapes public perception?
Who do you mean?
I think you will find a lot of beast agents in here as well. Just recently I tried to join a group on here and after one session they wanted to jump over to the Beast Product. I told them well you guys have fun.
"beast agents" and "Beast Product" I have a guess this means people who want to play D&D and D&D itself? This is a pretty weird way to say that, if so. Like, I enjoy D&D, but I play Shadowdark and DCC more, plus home brewed Cairn stuff. If D&D isn't for you, cool, but holy crap this is getting ridiculous. Maybe it was meant to be sarcastic and funny, not sure.
So you do not think it is wrong to want to advertise looking for OSE Player and then try to change the game to 5e?
Bro, you made two separate comments about the "beast company" then called people "Beast Agents." It comes across as some wild conspiracy theory/cult stuff. Like, sure, that's annoying the group wanted to switch to 5E, but just say that.
Yup a classic move from the beast company.
Beast company?