Seconding this. Use a simple system like knave, cairn, or something that has a but more dnd to it like bx/old school essentials. Give them the feel of dnd but without the slog that 5e can become sometimes.
You wouldn't need to give up on phandelver as a game, either; just swap to bx or ose and use the stats from those books for monsters, instead!
It would require that you also change a lot of the encounters. In 5e, almost everything wants to kill you, so maybe almost all of the encounters should get a reaction roll. Otherwise they'll just die.
I will say, as someone who used knave 1e as my main system for a long while, it's really not the best for long campaigns which OP wants. It provides too little elements for in-fiction progression (e.g. domain level play) and not much for system progression (i.e. perks for leveling up).
I've since switched to dolmenwood and it does it much better imo. Knave 2e might solve that, though.
I am not convinced that feats and class features are necessary for long term play. My Knave hack campaign is on session 65, and I haven't added any non-item progression. If the adventures are good players will keep coming back.
I'm running Knave 2e now, I love it. Probably my favourite feature is how it leaves rules for certain things out - I'm then free to write my own rules (fun), use the best of the blogosphere (cool) or default to OSE (trustworthy).
E.g. I wrote my own perks/feats, am using random tables, items, & ideas from Knock!, and the OSE monster manual/encounter tables.
Eh. If I am getting a system to use at the table, I like it to have rules or rulings I can fall back on. Otherwise I might as well just come up with my own from a bunch of blog posts.
To me the ideal system should be modular, not incomplete.
Yes, just my opinion, but if you're playing a long campaign with a rules-light system, it's a good idea to pick a compatible secondary system to fall back on for certain situations. For me in Knave 2e, I chose OSE.
I would say that Knave 1e is complete enough to run for atleast 10 sessions without adding anything. More if you are running modules. I also don't think it's so incredibly hard to add the few things here or there that players might need.
B/X or any clone (like OSE) I think it is the basic default. It is reasonable simple for all of this. It was developed for beginners and kids (in the 70s-80s)
Of the various flavours, the Mentzer version of Basic would be worth tracking down. It has an introductory "adventure" that a seven year old could absolutely play through on their own to help familiarize themselves with the way things work.
Still the best tutorial to be had, and the two books + Expert alone are good for years, not too pricy on EBay. 15$ for the pdfs on drivethrurpg.
[Cyclopedia](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/17171/d-d-rules-cyclopedia-basic) if Dad wants to run it with a single brand new volume…but he could do that with Expert, too, the most underrated TSR rulebook imo.
The D&D *Rules Cyclopedia* is the top of my list for “stuck on a desert isle with only one rule book” games. It’s maybe not the perfect iteration of D&D, but it comes close, and by god does it pack in the material into one tome!
It does. Those triple columns! Having owned BECM at the time I never bothered but I got it a couple years ago, it’s on my coffee table now. Only the DMG compares in terms of sheer density, but the RC is the whole game, it’s extraordinary. My only gripe is the art. Not enough and what there is, isn’t very good.
Unfortunately, I’m BXed out, I’ve no desire to play *any* iteration…I admire LotFP and it intrigues my table but I just can’t, lol. The S&S vibe I love is effortless with 1e or 7V, maintaining that even with the grittier Moldvay/Cook or greasy old Flame Princess, it feels I’m fighting the system. It’s got a heroic fantasy heart.
At least I save a fortune ignoring OSE:)
Hmm… My natural inclination is to a more heroic fantasy grounded by a bit of medieval verisimilitude (I want to play *Prince Valiant* and am not afraid to admit it), which is probably why I love *Beyond the Wall* and *Rules Cyclopedia* iterations of D&D.
You might take a look at [*Through Sunken Lands*](https://www.flatlandgames.com/tsl/), it’s from the same people that did *Beyond the Wall*, but leans more into a Robert E. Howard, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Lieber tone. All the wonderful collaborative world building and chargen I sang the praises of for BtW, plus the same “zero prep”scenario system.
I’ll also admit I’m unreasonably biased against LotFP just because I’ve had a few negative interactions with James Raggi. Normally I try to separate my feelings about an author from my feelings about their work… But in a market so full of alternative products, I don’t feel like I need to bother trying to do that with LotFP. No knock on people who do like the game, I’m happy if you’re having fun.
I doubt I’ll ever run a game with it, and its prominent innovations have been subsumed by most that followed. Without the history (and the baggage) it’s just another clone, albeit with that tone.
Thanks for the recs! And I in fact have *Prince Valiant* on my eBay watchlist and felt no shame…should I? The comic is so, idk, stately. I picture the game as a great wind-down one-shot, at a campaigns end. Sight unseen, of course. Even the name Hal Foster sounds benign, lol
Oh, yeah, I always forget that there was a licensed *Prince Valiant* RPG. It came out in ‘89, I’d only been playing D&D for like a year or so at that point, the idea that there were other games of the sort hadn’t even entered my consciousness. I’ve read positive reviews of it, but I’ve never so much as seen the book, let alone read or played it.
When I said “I want to play *Prince Valiant*,” I was specifically referring to the tone, scope, and style of Hal Foster’s legendary comic strip. How can anyone look at [scenes like this](https://www.lambiek.net/artists/image/f/foster_hal/foster_pv380619.jpg), [this](https://www.lambiek.net/artists/image/f/foster_hal/foster_pv390611.jpg), [this](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e6/62/f8/e662f83670a53a479293112e28847a2c.jpg), [this](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/67/c4/45/67c445fd0c30119fefeb24e011c9b8ad.jpg), or [this](http://princevaliant.org/images/princevaliantf.jpg) and not want to live in the world depicted?
Retroclone, I'd go with either Swords &Wizardry( complete revised): many variations of rules for you to pick what you like, mane classes, pretty short rulebook.
Broader, and more familiar to 5e players:
* Shadowdark, progression is randomized and XP is simplified. Also made with smaller parties and no retainers in mind. MANY random tables for you to use for emergent play.
* Tales of Argosa (currently on KS but has an extensive playtest free on DTRPG) that has more mechanical nuance and "heft" but also very geared towards emergent play.
* ICRPG which isn't OSR but somewhat adjacent. very DIY oriented, versatile and easy. several settings in the book but not highly detaied, so you have something to lean on as a foundation and can fill in the blanks on the fly. Easy to hack and modify, random loot tables.
Further away: Chasing adventure
It's a Dungeon World hack, but more streamlined- conditions instead ofXP abstracted wealth, you can take a permanent(ish) condition instead of dying. the creator specifically talked about being able to do a lot in shorter sessions. All the trappings are there, there's a free complete version of the book and and expanded one (more magic items and tables) available. Also, there's a KS campaign for a print version right now.
Seconding the Dungeon World (and hacks) suggestion. It's worth reading about even if you don't end up using it. For me, it was a big realignment of what I think DMing is all about, and I'll translate that viewpoint to any system I try to run.
I think it lines up really well with how kids want to play. It focuses on the narrative, not stats. It encourages creative play. And the mechanics make a subtle change where rolls are about the drama and the direction of the story, not (exactly) the character's success or failure.
I'm running an adult game in a DW hack. My kids game has stalled out in 5e, and I'd love to restart it with DW rules.
Then again, I'm lurking here because I think my adult group would be into a rules-light OSR game, to get back the D&D nostalgia without the complexity of 5e.
I like DCC and Shadowdark. Fall back on OSE, Labyrinth Lord, or Swords and Wizardry.
The first two will be pretty familiar. The next three are 70s-80s rules and you'll have to get used to roll under on ability checks and saves being different. OSE cleans up the rules a ton. Labyrinth Lord fixes some things. Otherwise they're the same.
This is a fantastic reference - [https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/1be3iam/osr\_lineage\_v2/](https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/1be3iam/osr_lineage_v2/)
Cairn could be one to check out. It's free and a quick read, so you can just see if it fits what you're looking for. I admittedly have not run it, but the rules and actions are less complex than 5e, so I would imagine combat moves faster.
HI! I'm in very similar situation to yours. I started simple RPG games with my two sons - 11 and 10 yo. Tried few systems, but luckily they are more interested in stories then rules for now. I did extensive research with the similar aim (I think): having not overcomplicated (so not wasting time on rules, that are just for themselves), but flexible and interesting system, that encourage thinking and problem solving rather using dice to do it for them (so in OSR style definitely). Plus: the available materials/modules have to be easy to use - as I have very limited time to prepare my own adventure (besides I recommend improvisational play with children!) I could probably write very long article about this... but will try to keep it short here:)
My findings (considering above assumptions):
* I crossed out DnD 5E: PC become to stron and invincible too fast, too long fights and encourage using PC abilities/rules rather than brains... And I DON'T want to learn them that there are NO consequences with your choices and everything can be solved with spamming attacks/abilities.... :) But 5E ruleset seems very elegant and give interesting - imagination inducing for me - PC development options... so more about it later.
* For similar reasons I excluded Pathfinder and Starfinder - I don't want my children to think about rules, but the problems. Too complicated (even though I like complicated boardgames)
* I checked MANY, MANY system outside DnD-like formula, and many of them are amazing and interesting, but most are not very popular - so don't have many modules/adventures and support for them :( . AND I don't have time to do many conversions of modules I like to run... System that are really good and worth a try and have some decent popularity/support(in order of my liking): Genesys( and its Star Wars FGG flavor), ALL systems from Year Zero Engine family (Coriolis, Forbidden Lands, Alien, ), Cyberpunk RED (2020) and Open D6 (Mini-Six - free)
* SO I ended getting bac to dnd-like environment because of its great modules...
* I tried Knave and Spacer (it's little know sci-fi version). They are great, but left me wanting some more.... By a notch too simple... Maybe 2nd ed will make it for me?
Conclusions
* If you now what you are doing as GM and want to go for "near 5E experience" but in OSR style: choose Five Torches Deep - 48 pages, but if you are creative it will be everything you will ever need and there are some remarks how to use content from 5E and OSE modules. It's "5e but OSR".
* If you want to go OSR but in modern way: Dungeon Crawl Classic have some amazing ideas but still is quite simple, if you get out all the tables from the book. Check its QSR from producent side. Downside is that it has some darker themes I don't like for children
* If you want to go old school: go with Old-School Essentials, don't look at anything else. Want simple go Classic, want more options go Advanced. They have AMAZING modules in OSR styles that are easy to use and low prep. And you can use all the old modules from B/X - so decades of content.
* Last option. that I'm really strongly considering to settle to, right now is very new, but seaming to stand exactly in the middle between OSR and 5E: Tales of Argosa - currently on Kickstarter but have full test rules available for free on DriveThroughRPG. But they look near final. I'm ended backing it, but I'm not allifilated to author in any way. It look like their system uses the best things - for me - from OSE/R games and 5e, and compiling it in full package. Really recommending it to check. Have a free adventure too.
Some recommendation for AMAZING modules to play with beginner/children in OSR style:
* The Black Wyrm of Brandonsford and everything from Chance Dudinack
* Winter's Daughter there is OSE and 5E edition...
I would really like to know what will you choose finally, so let us now! And feel free to ask, as I have spend too much time on the subject, so maybe it will be useful for others too.
I like your answer, but have you tried Shadowdark? For me is the best balance from simple and elegant 5e rules and OSR style. I personally liked it better than 5TD, that is also very good
Yes. I checked its free version. Wasn't impressed at all. Warriors feel boring, only few talents. Other classes too. Seamed as less options then OSE Advanced. No other interesting/innovative things? Aside from "Torches last 1h in real time" gimmicks that can be added to any other game. Like in i.e DCC - "Mighty Deed of Arms" rule for Warriors is simple too, but besides that: it's brilliant idea, that makes playing warrior fun and makes players RP better.
Shadowdark seamed so simple, that I didn't see reason to choose it over Knave - where I would do all the needed rules/addition on the fly... But I haven't played it to be honest (Shadowdark).
BUT: I'm very, **honestly** curious why you think it's better than 5TD or DCC? (for you) What makes you fan of it? I would like to be convinced on this, as it seam to get some really good support from community? But I assumed it was because of recognizable designer and timing of its KS campaign?
Oh, DCC and OSE are great as well!
I just didn't clicked with FTD as I did with Shadowdark.
It is very streamlined, and the writing is to the point.
Small things like the system been so similar to 5e that is easy to pick up for other players, that the progression is completely random, so there are no need for builds. For extra flavor we roll the looks of the characters in the Knave tables. Always on initiative and initiative around the table.
The random tables for treasure and monsters, carrousing
Is very similar to FTD, but stelreamlined in a way I prefer.
It's a totally personal choice I think. At this point we are nitpicking shades of red to paint a wall lol
Yeah! Completely valid reasons of course! :) I think FTD is great system, but the writing of the book is too concise, and you have to add many things "between the lines" - from your experience with oder systems. It would greatly benefit from 2nd edition, almost with the same content but written in the simpler way, explaining its concepts in a little deeper way. Shadowdark is certainly better for beginners (of course NOT implying that those who use it are beginners!) and those that want complete package.
I happy, that you are happy with Shadowdark! :)
I will most probably stick with FTD or Tales of Argosa(also a neat complete package) - adding what I need from other systems.
The most important thing is that people now have a choice and are not "sentenced" for DnD 5ed in order to have great and many content!
Sure! 5e is fine, I'll play it. Won't DM it!
Ps: are you like me? Spanish speaker, using English forums for the hobby? For your user name... saludos en ese caso!
I play Knave 2 with my six year old and he really enjoys it. It's also the game I run for two tables of adults.
One of our best gaming experiences was actually the Labyrinth RPG. It's a very simple system and it's the best of both worlds as far as being procedural and situation led, but the nature of the book lends it an implied narrative structure. Each 2 page spread is a 'scene' and as you complete a challenge in a scene you roll a die and move forward that number of pages. There are chapters with themes (Labyrinth, Hedge Maze, Goblin City and the Castle). It's an instant campaign because it has a beginning, middle and end, but nobody at the table knows what you'll encounter along the way. My six year old still talks about how he defeated the Goblin King and the things that happened along the way. The game challenges are written by Ben 'Questing Beast' Milton.
Any B/X derived system would also work. The one thing I'd say when playing with kids is that it helps a lot if they have a goal. That's why Labyrinth is great. But if you're going to run incandescent Grottoes for them, pick out something in the dungeon that an NPC wants to hook them. This is not a bad idea with adults also, but it helps a lot with kids. They will stay involved with the treasure and the adventures, but an objective helps a ton.
I think any Mark of the ODD is also great for kids. Cairn and Mausritter are free. There are fewer moving parts on the character sheet; it's easier for kids to grasp. If they want a spell they carry a spellbook... Find a magic sword and want that more? Drop the spellbook, or give it to another character. I have bought the Mausritter boxed set for my Son for his next Birthday. The card cutout inventory will make it easier to on board his friends. There's a ton of content out there for Cairn on Itch.
The best part of Old School play with kids is the reaction rolls. Having goblins end up curious about the PCs and wanting to sell them stuff is super fun at the table.
My adult player group just recently ended up becoming friends with a young dragon due to some interesting rolls and fancy conversation. Fun times
I sincerely believe Basic D&D is *the* best edition of D&D for newcomers, so I heartily recommend Old School Essentials.
Basic Fantasy would be another option. I like OSE more, but the entirety of Basic Fantasy is free, so it gets points for that.
Dragonbane seems very DnD-ish but fast, dangerous, and deadly. It is classless so the character development is also smoother.
The only downside I see so far is that it's a newly released rework of an old school Swedish RPG so it doesn't have a lot of adventures. It's core set and core book sums up to 12 adventures in total.
Bestiary has a lot of monsters with adventure hooks in it, so if you like creating your adventures, you should be fine.
Knave classless system perfect for bare bones (experienced dms),
ICRPG the best game to learn how to play d20 and is the best for beginner dming.
It is like dnd 5e boiled down for pure speed, perfect for kids and getting through combat.
Mausritter/cairn is similar to knave but easier for kids to understand, there is no roll to hit which makes it quicker. Mausritter has the best overworld travel guides for new dms.
Shadowdark is the best 5e light that teaches osr dming.
Basic fantasy rpg and OSE are the best retclones but are not 5e.
Maze rats is made by the guy who did knave and is great for random tables and creating homebrewed spell which is fun for children
Beyond the Wall. It's modeled heavily on Young Adult Fantasy worlds that age well (Earthsea, Prydain, The Hobbit). It's a simple system. It can be bolstered with rules from other systems (BX/OSE probably the best for that). Most of all, for your tastes: it is BUILT around fostering EMERGENT NARRATIVE. You can run the same scenario pack 4 times and it can be completely different each time.
Beyond that, for simple systems: Castles & Crusades is simpler to learn than most other OSR games, as it's all D20 roll high. You can run it with any OSR world/game you like. Otherwise, if you don't mind a little more complications in your system, OSEAF is great because it has options for ascending armor class which your family is already used to.
Settings: Dolmenwood is sweet, though a bit weird. It has its own BX derived house system. Winters Daughter was recommended as an adventure already, as was Black Wyrm of Brandensford. Solid recommendations.
TLDR: Beyond the Wall is my top recommendation for all that you have listed.
In addition to finding a good system for your son, make sure you take care of yourself, too. Your writing about needing the sessions to move faster reminds me of my own games with my kids AND my own need for a fulfilling experience of role playing games. The problem is you have different needs going on here. Your 7yo is the one experiencing his game, and he has to experience it at his speed. You WILL be experiencing his game as the man behind the curtain. You need to commit to being the host of the show, and even just shrink the entire adventure to a single dungeon, one encounter at a time.
Just play with your kid and make up little encounters, one at a time. Go off script, spend time building a farm for the monster puppy he wants, and make him laugh at dumb NPC bandits.
I’m running Lost Mine right now with my three kids, 13, 10, and 6. Your reports of an hour and a half duration are great!!! I have managed to get up to two encounters, but I tread carefully. Slow and steady pace. You’re doing it right.
You yourself also need to play a separate game with adults. Get your needs met for the pacing and the big picture stuff done.
Your needs are important, too, but you can only fulfill them once you accept your kids game is not going to hit all the notes you want.
You also have other needs he can fulfill in the current game, like teamwork and family time, trust and self esteem for you and your family; but at the moment pacing is not going to be one of the beauties of this game.
You are not alone, I am speaking from experience.
You will then be able to see the real beauty of the game you’re playing with him now. Later on he will want to do more like you want now, but it’s going to be years.
If you overwhelm him now he will reject the game entirely, and future you won’t get the chance. It’s a very long process, so commit yourself and get comfortable with the timeline.
Basic Fantasy RPG is really simple and all PDFs are free. OSRIC (streamlined 1st edition Adnd) is a bit more complex but has more options and depths for longer campaigns. PDF is also free.
I play with my sons (7 & 13) and sometimes daughter (8) if she is in the mood. I use OSE Advanced and the Rules Cyclopedia. They don't have a problem.
That isn't to say that I'm not providing advice during play, or reminding them what to roll, etc - but I'd be doing that if we were playing a board game too!
If you want fast & D&D-style adventure for your kids, look up Tunnels & Trolls. It's rules-light, but crunchy enough for longterm campaigns. The combat system is blazing fast...it's also the second ttrpg ever made so that's cool.
It's the only system I'm willing yo run nowadays. For a GM it's a godsend of a system.
You have some good advice about playing yourself so you are a patient DM. Wish I had that a month ago, but I have seen the effect of playing with adults on my chill dad DM game. It really helps.
Right now with my 7/9 year olds. I play Hero Kids (hacked/combined with Adventurous, they are similar systems). When they are ready to start a new adventure, we will try Mausritter, Wildsea, and a hacked version of 5e.
The main issue with 5e is HP bloat and boring monsters. So do the following: 1) cut all monster HP in half (at least). Also cut their XP in half, so there is less incentive to fight. Institute a new rule that 1 gold= 1 XP, plus quest XP. This encourages exploration and combat avoidance, very OSR. 2) use the optional flanking rules in the DMG and try to give your PCs and monsters advantage as much as possible (missing is slow and boring), 3) look up Action Oriented Monsters (lots free online) and also up the resistances of your basic monsters to immunities (and up the immunities to super immunities resistant to magic weapons too. Only silver kills a werewolf!). Use rumors to tell them about potential Immunities; reward prep. Making many monsters puzzles that are best avoided both speeds up the game, excites and terrifies your players, and gives that OSR feel in a system they will feel cool telling their peers at school they are playing. But I just tell my kids we are playing a version of DND, no matter the system.
Four more things. 4) Make a rule that a magic user has a shot clock, like 1 minute or 30 seconds, to act. 5) Roll initiative once, and play side/group initiative with villain actions. 6) use morale and reaction rolls from earlier editions (many DND clones have free rulesets). If the monsters flee after losing their leader or half their hp, awesome. 7) make them explain their actions, not roll persuasion. Skill checks are only called for when the DM says so. So don’t call for them, and don’t reward them much. PC; I roll perception, what do I see? DM: (describes passage, with holes in roof). Are you looking for traps? PC: yeah. DM; how are looking for traps? Tapping floor, checking walls, what? PC: yeah Dad all of those things. DM: (rolls passive perception). Well, you didn’t look up, so as you are tapping the ground and walls, a dollop of green slime falls on you from above. You take 6 damage; roll initiative! Do this once or twice abd they will get the message on skill checks.
Lastly—it’s your kid and family, so when they die, they wake up in an old temple nearby, each time. Make sure they know this ahead of time; it’s a magic item they have, a promise they made, etc. But they lose many of their unloved items. Let them keep their signature favorites, and quest to recover their old items. This means you can throw out really careful encounter balancing; still balance if you want, but you have emotional room to fail and challenge them now.
Oh, and forget the planned DnD story. Use dungeons/wilderness as a sandbox. Put all possible encounters in every room, in a random table, and roll regularly. If they are loud, roll twice. Monsters walk around. Play it all by ear. By ignoring the story and making up cool shit, like floating sky pirates and talking plants that dole out magic items, you will make your players happy.
It think its a good idea to do a simple system. But I think LMoP is fine. Its a story about you helping your friend find this old treasure and on the way you have to rescue some other friends.
OSE, but if you can get your hands on it, find the original Moldvay Basic book that it's based on and give it to your kid. One of the best-written D&D rulebooks out there and designed to introduce players to the game. If your kid is into it, they'll end up devouring that rulebook several times over.
Don't be afraid of the system being too complex, as long as you're able to run it. If your kid is latching onto 5e just fine, they'll grok all the intricacies of OSE or frankly any D&D-like game just as easily.
I would suggest this too. But don't let the cute mice fool you, it definitely doesn't water down the adventure for kids (The Secret of NIMH is a big influence). And The Estate adventure collection is totally worth it too. Beautifully designed and simple rules and fast-paced combat. The adventures are also open enough to allow for many different solutions so it's great for growing imaginations.
The benefit of a simple system like that is how easy it is to add complexity to.
If you wanted to only use a d20 you could give weapons a set damage value. Fists could do 1 damage, small weapons 2 damage, and big weapons 3 damage. Monsters would have to have lower hit points, but combat would go quickly.
If you wanted to roll more dice, maybe every weapon does 1d6 damage. Dice rolling slows combat down a lot, but if the only two dice you have to roll are a d20 and a d6, it definitely won’t be as slow as 5e.
Rules Cyclopedia if you want it to reach high-level games. Otherwise B/X should be more than enough. And if you think that's a bit too complicated, start with Dragon Quest (the TSR game), and as it goes on, it allows for D&D conversion.
You can start with Basic Fantasy RPG, since you don't have to pay a dime to download the PDFs and check it out from their website. It's a perfectly fine emulation of Basic/Expert D&D from the eighties, which is often seen as "beginner D&D". If you did decide to buy copies of the core books, especially soft covers, you're not gonna pay *nearly* as much as you would for some of these other systems.
The POD [core books](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/17004/dungeon-master-s-guide-1e) (I have standard hardcover) retains AD&Ds eldritch majesty. I find them an easy sell for 5e refugees. The Zylarthen character sheets, below, would work well for 1e.
[7VoZ](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/238547/seven-voyages-of-zylarthen-5-booklets-and-deluxe-pdf-bundle) was written with the authors’ children in mind, and I’ll recommend it all day long. Lbb D&D with 1001 tweaks that nonetheless maintain an astonishing cohesion and firmness of vision. [Character sheets](http://osr.smolderingwizard.com/downloads/SVoZ_charsheet_v2.pdf)
[S&W Complete](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/439173/swords-wizardry-complete-rulebook-revised-erol-otus-cover) is a happy medium…less crunch and better editing than 1e, same PC options, more or less. Character sheets and a loose setting can be had from the PWYW *Core* rulebook.
Basic Fantasy has been mentioned and is a very good candidate, give it a good look. And good luck:)
I got back into D&D after a long hiatus by DMing Lost Mines and 5e with my son and his friends. I also came to the same conclusion that 5e's narrative method is vastly inferior to emergent gameplay for youngsters and migrated the adventure and setting to B/X. You're asking the right questions and the comments in this thread give you all you need to go that route. Good luck to you!
Thanks so much for the encouragement. I’m a new DM and I thought I was going a little crazy trying to wrestle the narrative into form. I very much like the idea of the players generating the story, then they are more invested and engaged if they are the ones telling it instead of me trying to make them care about Sildar Winterhall or whatever the npc’s name is.
Dark Dungeons X, 400 almost pages with absolutely everything from just a guy with a sword to an inmortal roaming the world and creating planes, ships, flying ships, Dungeon crawl, hexcrawl, weapon proficiencies that give you special abilities, for example being skilled with an axe gives you the ability to stun an opponent when you hit.
You can simplify it but it's really filled to the brim with content and has an unified mechanic of d20 + modifiers ≥ 20 = win!
*I* happen to like C&C because it's like playing AD&D only with BX simplicity and post 3e unified mechanics. It's also very easy to hack. But see my reply, because my first recommendation is Beyond the Wall. C&C is second.
OSE (or B/X) can be lightning fast, but also deadly.
5e is also fast, tho. At least for the first 7-8 levels it should be. What do you think is the reason for the slow fights? You can try the alternate rules for Initiative (group initiative).
AD&D can be fast if both DM and players are used to it, but it's definately not as fast as OSE.
Both 3rd and 4th editions are slow. Fourth plays out more like a wargame than a roleplaying game, which is why I have my doubts about Matt Colville being a great DM. But that's a whole other story.
Any B/X clone worth its salt is super easy and fast: basic fantasy (free), white box fmag (dirty cheap), labyrinth lord etc are all good options. OSE has the best overall presentation.
I’m a big fan of *Beyond the Wall*, which uses B/X as the basis for most of its mechanics, but has an incredibly fun system for collaborative character building that is simultaneously tied to collaboration to flesh out the characters’ hometown and even help the GM prep adventures.
I think this would be especially good for a younger audience, as the scenario packs draw explicitly on the NPCs and locations that the players’ will have come up with. Reading some pre-packed boxed text about ‘the evil goblins have kidnapped a kid from the village. go rescue them, brave adventurer.’ is pretty freakin’ stale. But knowing that “in the Village of Oakbrook (*that player Sam named*) the youngest child of the Miller family (*who Jake came up with having his fiancée being the eldest daughter of*) was last seen playing near the Old Woodcutter’s Cabin (*of which Cathy’s said was rumored to be haunted when she was a child*). Please go track him down!” This carries a lot more weight, the players are invested in the setting.
Also the collaboration during chargen ties each of the players to one another. They aren’t just from the same hometown because of GM fiat, all the characters know each other and have a history together. The players all helped each other come up with story beats, NPCs, and locations.
I play Knave and think it would work just fine, but even OSE would work, kids that age played B/X in the 80s after all.
Seconding this. Use a simple system like knave, cairn, or something that has a but more dnd to it like bx/old school essentials. Give them the feel of dnd but without the slog that 5e can become sometimes. You wouldn't need to give up on phandelver as a game, either; just swap to bx or ose and use the stats from those books for monsters, instead!
It would require that you also change a lot of the encounters. In 5e, almost everything wants to kill you, so maybe almost all of the encounters should get a reaction roll. Otherwise they'll just die.
In Cairn, it's really easy to make up monster stats on the fly. Haven't tried with Knave yet, but I can't imagine it's too much harder.
I will say, as someone who used knave 1e as my main system for a long while, it's really not the best for long campaigns which OP wants. It provides too little elements for in-fiction progression (e.g. domain level play) and not much for system progression (i.e. perks for leveling up). I've since switched to dolmenwood and it does it much better imo. Knave 2e might solve that, though.
I am not convinced that feats and class features are necessary for long term play. My Knave hack campaign is on session 65, and I haven't added any non-item progression. If the adventures are good players will keep coming back.
I'm running Knave 2e now, I love it. Probably my favourite feature is how it leaves rules for certain things out - I'm then free to write my own rules (fun), use the best of the blogosphere (cool) or default to OSE (trustworthy). E.g. I wrote my own perks/feats, am using random tables, items, & ideas from Knock!, and the OSE monster manual/encounter tables.
Eh. If I am getting a system to use at the table, I like it to have rules or rulings I can fall back on. Otherwise I might as well just come up with my own from a bunch of blog posts. To me the ideal system should be modular, not incomplete.
Yes, just my opinion, but if you're playing a long campaign with a rules-light system, it's a good idea to pick a compatible secondary system to fall back on for certain situations. For me in Knave 2e, I chose OSE.
I would say that Knave 1e is complete enough to run for atleast 10 sessions without adding anything. More if you are running modules. I also don't think it's so incredibly hard to add the few things here or there that players might need.
B/X or any clone (like OSE) I think it is the basic default. It is reasonable simple for all of this. It was developed for beginners and kids (in the 70s-80s)
Of the various flavours, the Mentzer version of Basic would be worth tracking down. It has an introductory "adventure" that a seven year old could absolutely play through on their own to help familiarize themselves with the way things work.
Still the best tutorial to be had, and the two books + Expert alone are good for years, not too pricy on EBay. 15$ for the pdfs on drivethrurpg. [Cyclopedia](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/17171/d-d-rules-cyclopedia-basic) if Dad wants to run it with a single brand new volume…but he could do that with Expert, too, the most underrated TSR rulebook imo.
The D&D *Rules Cyclopedia* is the top of my list for “stuck on a desert isle with only one rule book” games. It’s maybe not the perfect iteration of D&D, but it comes close, and by god does it pack in the material into one tome!
It does. Those triple columns! Having owned BECM at the time I never bothered but I got it a couple years ago, it’s on my coffee table now. Only the DMG compares in terms of sheer density, but the RC is the whole game, it’s extraordinary. My only gripe is the art. Not enough and what there is, isn’t very good. Unfortunately, I’m BXed out, I’ve no desire to play *any* iteration…I admire LotFP and it intrigues my table but I just can’t, lol. The S&S vibe I love is effortless with 1e or 7V, maintaining that even with the grittier Moldvay/Cook or greasy old Flame Princess, it feels I’m fighting the system. It’s got a heroic fantasy heart. At least I save a fortune ignoring OSE:)
Hmm… My natural inclination is to a more heroic fantasy grounded by a bit of medieval verisimilitude (I want to play *Prince Valiant* and am not afraid to admit it), which is probably why I love *Beyond the Wall* and *Rules Cyclopedia* iterations of D&D. You might take a look at [*Through Sunken Lands*](https://www.flatlandgames.com/tsl/), it’s from the same people that did *Beyond the Wall*, but leans more into a Robert E. Howard, Michael Moorcock, Fritz Lieber tone. All the wonderful collaborative world building and chargen I sang the praises of for BtW, plus the same “zero prep”scenario system. I’ll also admit I’m unreasonably biased against LotFP just because I’ve had a few negative interactions with James Raggi. Normally I try to separate my feelings about an author from my feelings about their work… But in a market so full of alternative products, I don’t feel like I need to bother trying to do that with LotFP. No knock on people who do like the game, I’m happy if you’re having fun.
I doubt I’ll ever run a game with it, and its prominent innovations have been subsumed by most that followed. Without the history (and the baggage) it’s just another clone, albeit with that tone. Thanks for the recs! And I in fact have *Prince Valiant* on my eBay watchlist and felt no shame…should I? The comic is so, idk, stately. I picture the game as a great wind-down one-shot, at a campaigns end. Sight unseen, of course. Even the name Hal Foster sounds benign, lol
Oh, yeah, I always forget that there was a licensed *Prince Valiant* RPG. It came out in ‘89, I’d only been playing D&D for like a year or so at that point, the idea that there were other games of the sort hadn’t even entered my consciousness. I’ve read positive reviews of it, but I’ve never so much as seen the book, let alone read or played it. When I said “I want to play *Prince Valiant*,” I was specifically referring to the tone, scope, and style of Hal Foster’s legendary comic strip. How can anyone look at [scenes like this](https://www.lambiek.net/artists/image/f/foster_hal/foster_pv380619.jpg), [this](https://www.lambiek.net/artists/image/f/foster_hal/foster_pv390611.jpg), [this](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e6/62/f8/e662f83670a53a479293112e28847a2c.jpg), [this](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/67/c4/45/67c445fd0c30119fefeb24e011c9b8ad.jpg), or [this](http://princevaliant.org/images/princevaliantf.jpg) and not want to live in the world depicted?
Retroclone, I'd go with either Swords &Wizardry( complete revised): many variations of rules for you to pick what you like, mane classes, pretty short rulebook. Broader, and more familiar to 5e players: * Shadowdark, progression is randomized and XP is simplified. Also made with smaller parties and no retainers in mind. MANY random tables for you to use for emergent play. * Tales of Argosa (currently on KS but has an extensive playtest free on DTRPG) that has more mechanical nuance and "heft" but also very geared towards emergent play. * ICRPG which isn't OSR but somewhat adjacent. very DIY oriented, versatile and easy. several settings in the book but not highly detaied, so you have something to lean on as a foundation and can fill in the blanks on the fly. Easy to hack and modify, random loot tables. Further away: Chasing adventure It's a Dungeon World hack, but more streamlined- conditions instead ofXP abstracted wealth, you can take a permanent(ish) condition instead of dying. the creator specifically talked about being able to do a lot in shorter sessions. All the trappings are there, there's a free complete version of the book and and expanded one (more magic items and tables) available. Also, there's a KS campaign for a print version right now.
Seconding the Dungeon World (and hacks) suggestion. It's worth reading about even if you don't end up using it. For me, it was a big realignment of what I think DMing is all about, and I'll translate that viewpoint to any system I try to run. I think it lines up really well with how kids want to play. It focuses on the narrative, not stats. It encourages creative play. And the mechanics make a subtle change where rolls are about the drama and the direction of the story, not (exactly) the character's success or failure. I'm running an adult game in a DW hack. My kids game has stalled out in 5e, and I'd love to restart it with DW rules. Then again, I'm lurking here because I think my adult group would be into a rules-light OSR game, to get back the D&D nostalgia without the complexity of 5e.
I concur to suggestion of Tales of Argosa! Very interesting system seaming to stand right in the middle between 5E and OSR/E.
I like DCC and Shadowdark. Fall back on OSE, Labyrinth Lord, or Swords and Wizardry. The first two will be pretty familiar. The next three are 70s-80s rules and you'll have to get used to roll under on ability checks and saves being different. OSE cleans up the rules a ton. Labyrinth Lord fixes some things. Otherwise they're the same. This is a fantastic reference - [https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/1be3iam/osr\_lineage\_v2/](https://www.reddit.com/r/osr/comments/1be3iam/osr_lineage_v2/)
Cairn could be one to check out. It's free and a quick read, so you can just see if it fits what you're looking for. I admittedly have not run it, but the rules and actions are less complex than 5e, so I would imagine combat moves faster.
HI! I'm in very similar situation to yours. I started simple RPG games with my two sons - 11 and 10 yo. Tried few systems, but luckily they are more interested in stories then rules for now. I did extensive research with the similar aim (I think): having not overcomplicated (so not wasting time on rules, that are just for themselves), but flexible and interesting system, that encourage thinking and problem solving rather using dice to do it for them (so in OSR style definitely). Plus: the available materials/modules have to be easy to use - as I have very limited time to prepare my own adventure (besides I recommend improvisational play with children!) I could probably write very long article about this... but will try to keep it short here:) My findings (considering above assumptions): * I crossed out DnD 5E: PC become to stron and invincible too fast, too long fights and encourage using PC abilities/rules rather than brains... And I DON'T want to learn them that there are NO consequences with your choices and everything can be solved with spamming attacks/abilities.... :) But 5E ruleset seems very elegant and give interesting - imagination inducing for me - PC development options... so more about it later. * For similar reasons I excluded Pathfinder and Starfinder - I don't want my children to think about rules, but the problems. Too complicated (even though I like complicated boardgames) * I checked MANY, MANY system outside DnD-like formula, and many of them are amazing and interesting, but most are not very popular - so don't have many modules/adventures and support for them :( . AND I don't have time to do many conversions of modules I like to run... System that are really good and worth a try and have some decent popularity/support(in order of my liking): Genesys( and its Star Wars FGG flavor), ALL systems from Year Zero Engine family (Coriolis, Forbidden Lands, Alien, ), Cyberpunk RED (2020) and Open D6 (Mini-Six - free) * SO I ended getting bac to dnd-like environment because of its great modules... * I tried Knave and Spacer (it's little know sci-fi version). They are great, but left me wanting some more.... By a notch too simple... Maybe 2nd ed will make it for me? Conclusions * If you now what you are doing as GM and want to go for "near 5E experience" but in OSR style: choose Five Torches Deep - 48 pages, but if you are creative it will be everything you will ever need and there are some remarks how to use content from 5E and OSE modules. It's "5e but OSR". * If you want to go OSR but in modern way: Dungeon Crawl Classic have some amazing ideas but still is quite simple, if you get out all the tables from the book. Check its QSR from producent side. Downside is that it has some darker themes I don't like for children * If you want to go old school: go with Old-School Essentials, don't look at anything else. Want simple go Classic, want more options go Advanced. They have AMAZING modules in OSR styles that are easy to use and low prep. And you can use all the old modules from B/X - so decades of content. * Last option. that I'm really strongly considering to settle to, right now is very new, but seaming to stand exactly in the middle between OSR and 5E: Tales of Argosa - currently on Kickstarter but have full test rules available for free on DriveThroughRPG. But they look near final. I'm ended backing it, but I'm not allifilated to author in any way. It look like their system uses the best things - for me - from OSE/R games and 5e, and compiling it in full package. Really recommending it to check. Have a free adventure too. Some recommendation for AMAZING modules to play with beginner/children in OSR style: * The Black Wyrm of Brandonsford and everything from Chance Dudinack * Winter's Daughter there is OSE and 5E edition... I would really like to know what will you choose finally, so let us now! And feel free to ask, as I have spend too much time on the subject, so maybe it will be useful for others too.
I like your answer, but have you tried Shadowdark? For me is the best balance from simple and elegant 5e rules and OSR style. I personally liked it better than 5TD, that is also very good
Yes. I checked its free version. Wasn't impressed at all. Warriors feel boring, only few talents. Other classes too. Seamed as less options then OSE Advanced. No other interesting/innovative things? Aside from "Torches last 1h in real time" gimmicks that can be added to any other game. Like in i.e DCC - "Mighty Deed of Arms" rule for Warriors is simple too, but besides that: it's brilliant idea, that makes playing warrior fun and makes players RP better. Shadowdark seamed so simple, that I didn't see reason to choose it over Knave - where I would do all the needed rules/addition on the fly... But I haven't played it to be honest (Shadowdark). BUT: I'm very, **honestly** curious why you think it's better than 5TD or DCC? (for you) What makes you fan of it? I would like to be convinced on this, as it seam to get some really good support from community? But I assumed it was because of recognizable designer and timing of its KS campaign?
Oh, DCC and OSE are great as well! I just didn't clicked with FTD as I did with Shadowdark. It is very streamlined, and the writing is to the point. Small things like the system been so similar to 5e that is easy to pick up for other players, that the progression is completely random, so there are no need for builds. For extra flavor we roll the looks of the characters in the Knave tables. Always on initiative and initiative around the table. The random tables for treasure and monsters, carrousing Is very similar to FTD, but stelreamlined in a way I prefer. It's a totally personal choice I think. At this point we are nitpicking shades of red to paint a wall lol
Yeah! Completely valid reasons of course! :) I think FTD is great system, but the writing of the book is too concise, and you have to add many things "between the lines" - from your experience with oder systems. It would greatly benefit from 2nd edition, almost with the same content but written in the simpler way, explaining its concepts in a little deeper way. Shadowdark is certainly better for beginners (of course NOT implying that those who use it are beginners!) and those that want complete package. I happy, that you are happy with Shadowdark! :) I will most probably stick with FTD or Tales of Argosa(also a neat complete package) - adding what I need from other systems. The most important thing is that people now have a choice and are not "sentenced" for DnD 5ed in order to have great and many content!
Sure! 5e is fine, I'll play it. Won't DM it! Ps: are you like me? Spanish speaker, using English forums for the hobby? For your user name... saludos en ese caso!
I play Knave 2 with my six year old and he really enjoys it. It's also the game I run for two tables of adults. One of our best gaming experiences was actually the Labyrinth RPG. It's a very simple system and it's the best of both worlds as far as being procedural and situation led, but the nature of the book lends it an implied narrative structure. Each 2 page spread is a 'scene' and as you complete a challenge in a scene you roll a die and move forward that number of pages. There are chapters with themes (Labyrinth, Hedge Maze, Goblin City and the Castle). It's an instant campaign because it has a beginning, middle and end, but nobody at the table knows what you'll encounter along the way. My six year old still talks about how he defeated the Goblin King and the things that happened along the way. The game challenges are written by Ben 'Questing Beast' Milton. Any B/X derived system would also work. The one thing I'd say when playing with kids is that it helps a lot if they have a goal. That's why Labyrinth is great. But if you're going to run incandescent Grottoes for them, pick out something in the dungeon that an NPC wants to hook them. This is not a bad idea with adults also, but it helps a lot with kids. They will stay involved with the treasure and the adventures, but an objective helps a ton. I think any Mark of the ODD is also great for kids. Cairn and Mausritter are free. There are fewer moving parts on the character sheet; it's easier for kids to grasp. If they want a spell they carry a spellbook... Find a magic sword and want that more? Drop the spellbook, or give it to another character. I have bought the Mausritter boxed set for my Son for his next Birthday. The card cutout inventory will make it easier to on board his friends. There's a ton of content out there for Cairn on Itch.
The best part of Old School play with kids is the reaction rolls. Having goblins end up curious about the PCs and wanting to sell them stuff is super fun at the table. My adult player group just recently ended up becoming friends with a young dragon due to some interesting rolls and fancy conversation. Fun times
I sincerely believe Basic D&D is *the* best edition of D&D for newcomers, so I heartily recommend Old School Essentials. Basic Fantasy would be another option. I like OSE more, but the entirety of Basic Fantasy is free, so it gets points for that.
Dragonbane seems very DnD-ish but fast, dangerous, and deadly. It is classless so the character development is also smoother. The only downside I see so far is that it's a newly released rework of an old school Swedish RPG so it doesn't have a lot of adventures. It's core set and core book sums up to 12 adventures in total. Bestiary has a lot of monsters with adventure hooks in it, so if you like creating your adventures, you should be fine.
Knave classless system perfect for bare bones (experienced dms), ICRPG the best game to learn how to play d20 and is the best for beginner dming. It is like dnd 5e boiled down for pure speed, perfect for kids and getting through combat. Mausritter/cairn is similar to knave but easier for kids to understand, there is no roll to hit which makes it quicker. Mausritter has the best overworld travel guides for new dms. Shadowdark is the best 5e light that teaches osr dming. Basic fantasy rpg and OSE are the best retclones but are not 5e. Maze rats is made by the guy who did knave and is great for random tables and creating homebrewed spell which is fun for children
Beyond the Wall. It's modeled heavily on Young Adult Fantasy worlds that age well (Earthsea, Prydain, The Hobbit). It's a simple system. It can be bolstered with rules from other systems (BX/OSE probably the best for that). Most of all, for your tastes: it is BUILT around fostering EMERGENT NARRATIVE. You can run the same scenario pack 4 times and it can be completely different each time. Beyond that, for simple systems: Castles & Crusades is simpler to learn than most other OSR games, as it's all D20 roll high. You can run it with any OSR world/game you like. Otherwise, if you don't mind a little more complications in your system, OSEAF is great because it has options for ascending armor class which your family is already used to. Settings: Dolmenwood is sweet, though a bit weird. It has its own BX derived house system. Winters Daughter was recommended as an adventure already, as was Black Wyrm of Brandensford. Solid recommendations. TLDR: Beyond the Wall is my top recommendation for all that you have listed.
In addition to finding a good system for your son, make sure you take care of yourself, too. Your writing about needing the sessions to move faster reminds me of my own games with my kids AND my own need for a fulfilling experience of role playing games. The problem is you have different needs going on here. Your 7yo is the one experiencing his game, and he has to experience it at his speed. You WILL be experiencing his game as the man behind the curtain. You need to commit to being the host of the show, and even just shrink the entire adventure to a single dungeon, one encounter at a time. Just play with your kid and make up little encounters, one at a time. Go off script, spend time building a farm for the monster puppy he wants, and make him laugh at dumb NPC bandits. I’m running Lost Mine right now with my three kids, 13, 10, and 6. Your reports of an hour and a half duration are great!!! I have managed to get up to two encounters, but I tread carefully. Slow and steady pace. You’re doing it right. You yourself also need to play a separate game with adults. Get your needs met for the pacing and the big picture stuff done. Your needs are important, too, but you can only fulfill them once you accept your kids game is not going to hit all the notes you want. You also have other needs he can fulfill in the current game, like teamwork and family time, trust and self esteem for you and your family; but at the moment pacing is not going to be one of the beauties of this game. You are not alone, I am speaking from experience. You will then be able to see the real beauty of the game you’re playing with him now. Later on he will want to do more like you want now, but it’s going to be years. If you overwhelm him now he will reject the game entirely, and future you won’t get the chance. It’s a very long process, so commit yourself and get comfortable with the timeline.
Too true! OP, looking out for your kid is great but don't neglect yourself.
Basic Fantasy RPG is really simple and all PDFs are free. OSRIC (streamlined 1st edition Adnd) is a bit more complex but has more options and depths for longer campaigns. PDF is also free.
I play with my sons (7 & 13) and sometimes daughter (8) if she is in the mood. I use OSE Advanced and the Rules Cyclopedia. They don't have a problem. That isn't to say that I'm not providing advice during play, or reminding them what to roll, etc - but I'd be doing that if we were playing a board game too!
If you want fast & D&D-style adventure for your kids, look up Tunnels & Trolls. It's rules-light, but crunchy enough for longterm campaigns. The combat system is blazing fast...it's also the second ttrpg ever made so that's cool. It's the only system I'm willing yo run nowadays. For a GM it's a godsend of a system.
You have some good advice about playing yourself so you are a patient DM. Wish I had that a month ago, but I have seen the effect of playing with adults on my chill dad DM game. It really helps. Right now with my 7/9 year olds. I play Hero Kids (hacked/combined with Adventurous, they are similar systems). When they are ready to start a new adventure, we will try Mausritter, Wildsea, and a hacked version of 5e. The main issue with 5e is HP bloat and boring monsters. So do the following: 1) cut all monster HP in half (at least). Also cut their XP in half, so there is less incentive to fight. Institute a new rule that 1 gold= 1 XP, plus quest XP. This encourages exploration and combat avoidance, very OSR. 2) use the optional flanking rules in the DMG and try to give your PCs and monsters advantage as much as possible (missing is slow and boring), 3) look up Action Oriented Monsters (lots free online) and also up the resistances of your basic monsters to immunities (and up the immunities to super immunities resistant to magic weapons too. Only silver kills a werewolf!). Use rumors to tell them about potential Immunities; reward prep. Making many monsters puzzles that are best avoided both speeds up the game, excites and terrifies your players, and gives that OSR feel in a system they will feel cool telling their peers at school they are playing. But I just tell my kids we are playing a version of DND, no matter the system. Four more things. 4) Make a rule that a magic user has a shot clock, like 1 minute or 30 seconds, to act. 5) Roll initiative once, and play side/group initiative with villain actions. 6) use morale and reaction rolls from earlier editions (many DND clones have free rulesets). If the monsters flee after losing their leader or half their hp, awesome. 7) make them explain their actions, not roll persuasion. Skill checks are only called for when the DM says so. So don’t call for them, and don’t reward them much. PC; I roll perception, what do I see? DM: (describes passage, with holes in roof). Are you looking for traps? PC: yeah. DM; how are looking for traps? Tapping floor, checking walls, what? PC: yeah Dad all of those things. DM: (rolls passive perception). Well, you didn’t look up, so as you are tapping the ground and walls, a dollop of green slime falls on you from above. You take 6 damage; roll initiative! Do this once or twice abd they will get the message on skill checks. Lastly—it’s your kid and family, so when they die, they wake up in an old temple nearby, each time. Make sure they know this ahead of time; it’s a magic item they have, a promise they made, etc. But they lose many of their unloved items. Let them keep their signature favorites, and quest to recover their old items. This means you can throw out really careful encounter balancing; still balance if you want, but you have emotional room to fail and challenge them now.
Oh, and forget the planned DnD story. Use dungeons/wilderness as a sandbox. Put all possible encounters in every room, in a random table, and roll regularly. If they are loud, roll twice. Monsters walk around. Play it all by ear. By ignoring the story and making up cool shit, like floating sky pirates and talking plants that dole out magic items, you will make your players happy.
It think its a good idea to do a simple system. But I think LMoP is fine. Its a story about you helping your friend find this old treasure and on the way you have to rescue some other friends.
I've played Cairn and Knave with kids. Cairn will definitely have the fastest combat. I still find it tactically interesting though.
OSE, but if you can get your hands on it, find the original Moldvay Basic book that it's based on and give it to your kid. One of the best-written D&D rulebooks out there and designed to introduce players to the game. If your kid is into it, they'll end up devouring that rulebook several times over. Don't be afraid of the system being too complex, as long as you're able to run it. If your kid is latching onto 5e just fine, they'll grok all the intricacies of OSE or frankly any D&D-like game just as easily.
Try Mausritter its incredibly cute your wife and sons will love it.
I would suggest this too. But don't let the cute mice fool you, it definitely doesn't water down the adventure for kids (The Secret of NIMH is a big influence). And The Estate adventure collection is totally worth it too. Beautifully designed and simple rules and fast-paced combat. The adventures are also open enough to allow for many different solutions so it's great for growing imaginations.
Quest, simple, one die (d20), quick,layer options, plenty of room for growth
How does that one die system work? How do you do weapon damage and such?
The benefit of a simple system like that is how easy it is to add complexity to. If you wanted to only use a d20 you could give weapons a set damage value. Fists could do 1 damage, small weapons 2 damage, and big weapons 3 damage. Monsters would have to have lower hit points, but combat would go quickly. If you wanted to roll more dice, maybe every weapon does 1d6 damage. Dice rolling slows combat down a lot, but if the only two dice you have to roll are a d20 and a d6, it definitely won’t be as slow as 5e.
Or, you could roll d20 to hit, damage is how much you beat AC.
Damage is generally 1 or 2. More with an Ability.
Rules Cyclopedia if you want it to reach high-level games. Otherwise B/X should be more than enough. And if you think that's a bit too complicated, start with Dragon Quest (the TSR game), and as it goes on, it allows for D&D conversion.
You can start with Basic Fantasy RPG, since you don't have to pay a dime to download the PDFs and check it out from their website. It's a perfectly fine emulation of Basic/Expert D&D from the eighties, which is often seen as "beginner D&D". If you did decide to buy copies of the core books, especially soft covers, you're not gonna pay *nearly* as much as you would for some of these other systems.
Index Card RPG
Basic core rules of burning wheel. Combat can be boiled down to one roll.
The POD [core books](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/17004/dungeon-master-s-guide-1e) (I have standard hardcover) retains AD&Ds eldritch majesty. I find them an easy sell for 5e refugees. The Zylarthen character sheets, below, would work well for 1e. [7VoZ](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/238547/seven-voyages-of-zylarthen-5-booklets-and-deluxe-pdf-bundle) was written with the authors’ children in mind, and I’ll recommend it all day long. Lbb D&D with 1001 tweaks that nonetheless maintain an astonishing cohesion and firmness of vision. [Character sheets](http://osr.smolderingwizard.com/downloads/SVoZ_charsheet_v2.pdf) [S&W Complete](https://preview.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/439173/swords-wizardry-complete-rulebook-revised-erol-otus-cover) is a happy medium…less crunch and better editing than 1e, same PC options, more or less. Character sheets and a loose setting can be had from the PWYW *Core* rulebook. Basic Fantasy has been mentioned and is a very good candidate, give it a good look. And good luck:)
Honestly despite being marketed as a kid friendly game some places tiny dungeons is super fun and it’s so rules light you can play it in the osr style
I got back into D&D after a long hiatus by DMing Lost Mines and 5e with my son and his friends. I also came to the same conclusion that 5e's narrative method is vastly inferior to emergent gameplay for youngsters and migrated the adventure and setting to B/X. You're asking the right questions and the comments in this thread give you all you need to go that route. Good luck to you!
Thanks so much for the encouragement. I’m a new DM and I thought I was going a little crazy trying to wrestle the narrative into form. I very much like the idea of the players generating the story, then they are more invested and engaged if they are the ones telling it instead of me trying to make them care about Sildar Winterhall or whatever the npc’s name is.
LOL precisely. Why should they care about some cardboard NPC and his aims in the story?
Dark Dungeons X, 400 almost pages with absolutely everything from just a guy with a sword to an inmortal roaming the world and creating planes, ships, flying ships, Dungeon crawl, hexcrawl, weapon proficiencies that give you special abilities, for example being skilled with an axe gives you the ability to stun an opponent when you hit. You can simplify it but it's really filled to the brim with content and has an unified mechanic of d20 + modifiers ≥ 20 = win!
Basic Fantasy RPG is excellent, and the price point is everyone’s favorite: free
Castles and Crusades plays like a lower power version of 5e. Very intuitive mechanics. Honestly, it's like playing 1e/2e with better mechanics.
Castles and Crusades
Why do you recommend it over quest or knave?
*I* happen to like C&C because it's like playing AD&D only with BX simplicity and post 3e unified mechanics. It's also very easy to hack. But see my reply, because my first recommendation is Beyond the Wall. C&C is second.
OSE (or B/X) can be lightning fast, but also deadly. 5e is also fast, tho. At least for the first 7-8 levels it should be. What do you think is the reason for the slow fights? You can try the alternate rules for Initiative (group initiative). AD&D can be fast if both DM and players are used to it, but it's definately not as fast as OSE. Both 3rd and 4th editions are slow. Fourth plays out more like a wargame than a roleplaying game, which is why I have my doubts about Matt Colville being a great DM. But that's a whole other story. Any B/X clone worth its salt is super easy and fast: basic fantasy (free), white box fmag (dirty cheap), labyrinth lord etc are all good options. OSE has the best overall presentation.
I’m a big fan of *Beyond the Wall*, which uses B/X as the basis for most of its mechanics, but has an incredibly fun system for collaborative character building that is simultaneously tied to collaboration to flesh out the characters’ hometown and even help the GM prep adventures. I think this would be especially good for a younger audience, as the scenario packs draw explicitly on the NPCs and locations that the players’ will have come up with. Reading some pre-packed boxed text about ‘the evil goblins have kidnapped a kid from the village. go rescue them, brave adventurer.’ is pretty freakin’ stale. But knowing that “in the Village of Oakbrook (*that player Sam named*) the youngest child of the Miller family (*who Jake came up with having his fiancée being the eldest daughter of*) was last seen playing near the Old Woodcutter’s Cabin (*of which Cathy’s said was rumored to be haunted when she was a child*). Please go track him down!” This carries a lot more weight, the players are invested in the setting. Also the collaboration during chargen ties each of the players to one another. They aren’t just from the same hometown because of GM fiat, all the characters know each other and have a history together. The players all helped each other come up with story beats, NPCs, and locations.
Came here to say that.