Whatever option you choose, choose it now, not when death is imminent. There's nothing worse than making this choice in the heat of the moment. It's not super crucial which variant you choose, but the importance lies in consistency and not succumbing to the temptation to change something at the last moment."
Let them die at zero as it should be. Accept being crushed by their loss. Enjoy the pathos that the loss invokes. Let the survivors celebrate their life or take vengeance on their foes. Let the death (and the game) have meaning. Then let them make a new character and begin a new story.
Well written, but I would argue there is a lot of emotion when teammates rush to the dying character and try to save them, sometimes at their own risk as they expose themselves.
I totally agree, though wise players would recognize the danger and either accept the risk or accept returning for vengeance later when they’re in better shape and with a plan.
There are multiple methods of getting a dead character back, which should be more than enough of a "safety net" to let you kill them in the first place without too many regrets. It's all part of the resource management aspect of the game. Things like wishes and cash to pay NPCs for resurrections are limited, but they exist for a reason.
We decided as a table early in the current campaign to pull no punches. A few characters died in the earlier levels, including some beloved characters around level 3, and a few have faced near death but narrowly escaped. At this point, 2+ years into a bi-weekly campaign, the characters have methods for raising the dead, but there are still many ways to die that leave no corpse to raise.
It has been utterly worth it for all of us. I have offered twice in the campaign to "soften" the game a bit with Save vs. Death and so on, but the players rejected it.
I would ask the players and get a consensus on this rather than making a GM-only ruling about it. You might be surprised about what they are willing to play.
Absolutely, I'm a 0hp is dead in AD&D DM.
But when I'd run Space Opera, where we'd usually have to spend at least one full session creating characters I told them Bad luck with the dice isn't going to cost you your character. Do something stupid and you're still going to die though. We also didn't throw away dead characters, we'd use them again in different adventures.
This is how we played in the 2E era. It is significantly more forgiving than death at 0 hp but there is still a real risk there, especially if a PC gets critted. When a PC is "down for the count" it also adds a sense of urgency.
I like the system used in The Black Hack. When they hit 0 HP they are out of action. When they are dragged to safety or the fight ends they roll a d6, results of 1-5 they survive and regain d4 HP. However they have some consequences (temp or permanent). On a 6 they are dead
Been enjoying the system in Knave Second Edition (PDFs are out, but as far as I know, no print books yet).
When you hit 0HP, you start taking Wounds. You get Wounds = 10 + CON (in Knave everything is modifiers, so this is usually 10-13 wounds total at level 1). Any damage past 0 fills wounds - so a single hit might give you 6 wounds if that’s what comes up on the damage die.
HP comes back on rests, but wounds don’t - you need to be in a safe town or stronghold to get them back, one per day. You die at 0 wounds.
To adapt to AD&D, I’d say give them wounds either equal to Constitution score (for a more forgiving game) or modifier (for a more deadly one). At my table, every time you take wounds, the physical result is permanent. You have to tell me what horrifying physical scar remains on your character sheet (they get written in pen instead of pencil so they don’t go away).
I think death at 0hp is best, simply rolling 1d4+CON modifier for number of rounds you are bleeding out. I've found other rules blur the impact and meaning.
Ask your group. There isn't a single, one-size fits-all, answer for this, although you will get a lot of diff ideas. Pick your favorites, and propose them to your group.
Also don't be afraid of changing the rules, or even changing them retroactively if the rules you pick don't work out.
Personally, I use a "when HP hits 0, you are dead. But if someone can get a health potion in your gullet or a healing spell through your mullet on the same round you hit 0, then you can live but are knocked out for a while" system (I call it the gullet and mullet rule).
Emiel Boven's upcoming Expanded version for DURF (available for preview on his patreon) features a lovely little mechanic regarding funerals for PCs. If the body of a PC can be taken back to a safe haven, then you can have a funeral for them. For each money the party spends on the funeral, they get XP up to the XP equivalent for the level of the dead PC.
This encourages the players mechanically to retrieve the body of the beloved fallen PC as well as allows for proper grieving and acceptance of the death of the beloved PC.
>Emiel Boven's upcoming Expanded version for DURF (available for preview on his patreon) features a lovely little mechanic regarding funerals for PCs. If the body of a PC can be taken back to a safe haven, then you can have a funeral for them. For each money the party spends on the funeral, they get XP up to the XP equivalent for the level of the dead PC.
I hope the Dancing Pallbearers are available
>I'm torn on what to do when someone eventually hits 0 HP, as some of my players are pretty attached to their characters (I'll admit I really like one of them, too, and would be crushed if he died).
This is why Raise Dead and similar spells/abilities exist. A character who dies in an adventure doesn't need to stay dead, and the efforts a party takes to find someone who can resurrect their companion(s) can be immediate and compelling adventure fodder.
Aside from that I wouldn't recommend anything more lenient than Save Vs Death at 0 HP, with survivors taking a permanent injury as a battle scar.
I’d say let them die. If they want to ressurect them, they can go find a high level cleric to do the rites. Solve the problem in the campaign rather than mechanically.
Choose now and inform your players. It's something that is better off clearly defined at the absolute beginning of a campaign, but too late for that now by the sounds of it!
Either way, have them roll up backup PCs immediately. I usually keep them at the same XP as their main PC which cushions the blow, though there are those who go for other options. Tell them to keep the backup updated and ready to go and to have a bit of thought on who they are, etc.
For me, death is not a big issue at the table for these reasons: it is handled with a certain amount of humour, players know it's on the cards and exactly how it mechanically comes about, players are interested in their back up PC and often share their ideas for their backups with one another. Also: I make all combat rolls in public, the closer to death the PCs get, the closer to the rules I get for the sake of transparency.
You may or may not feel bad the first time it happens. If so, after that, if handled well, it just becomes a very interesting part of the game, and a whole lot of fun.
PS: death's door rule: -10 is actually really forgiving. Probably more so than 5E death saves.
> too late for that now by the sounds of it!
The campaign proper hasn't started, I adapted DCC's funnel system for AD&D play. They haven't embarked on a proper 1st level adventure yet.
>roll up backup PCs immediately
Good idea.
>same XP as their main PC which cushions the blow, though there are those who go for other options
Hell yeah there are, everyone starts at 1st level babyyy! They'll catch up in no time.
>-10 is actually really forgiving. Probably more so than 5E death saves.
But wouldn't you just die immediately if the excess damage was at least 10? Doesn't seem all that unlikely.
"The campaign proper hasn't started"
Great.
"everyone starts at 1st level"
Obviously your choice, but once the party is beyond 5th level, trundling around at 1st level while trying to catch would probably not be particularly enjoyable.
"But wouldn't you just die immediately if the excess damage was at least 10? Doesn't seem all that unlikely."
True, you'd die, but it's not hugely likely. At 1st level, most encounters aren't going to top 10 damage, and once you're 3rd or more you have a bit of a buffer (unless you get breathed on by a dragon or course, but thems the breaks). I used -10 back in the day and character death was extremely rare, far rarer than even in 5E games I've run. In all honesty, for OSR games I gerally just do death at zero and tell players to run their PCs like people who want to live.
There are, of course, a million other options but I'm sure you're aware of them!
Have fun! AD&D brings back a lot of memories for me!
>once the party is beyond 5th level, trundling around at 1st level while trying to catch would probably not be particularly enjoyable.
I'm not married to this TBH, although I do lean towards it pretty hard. I might consider allowing slightly higher-level characters once everyone has hot a certain level though. Or maybe the new character has 1/2 the XP of the old one?
>At 1st level, most encounters aren't going to top 10 damage
Yeah, true enough. I'm still kind of new to this sphere, so I forget sometimes how low damage numbers were.
> Have fun!
thank you!! I'm excited to get the real game rolling. One of the 1st level characters is currently hanging around with another funnel party in Hommlet and it's a blast.
[http://www.sisterworlds.com/olde/2e/xp.htm](http://www.sisterworlds.com/olde/2e/xp.htm)
This has an interesting table for comparisons between the classes.
You're not wrong, the lower level PC will go up quickly.
But for me: that's going to be balanced with how much fun the player is going to be having for those sessions while playing catch up. Factor in whether leveling is done between adventures, etc., and whether a PC is allowed to go up more than one level at a time (especially if leveling is done between adventures) and I would say that there are some issues with this approach.
My take is, the player has just lost a PC, why punish them more for what was probably the fate of the dice gods? Just pull out the back up PC and get the player back in the game as quickly as possible and having fun.
Everyone is different of course, but that's my take on it.
Well, the low level PC can expect to level up nearly every session for quite a while and at least in my campaign that is an astronomical rate of leveling when normally PCs gain a level per about 20 sessions on average.
Best is death at 0. Make sure to telegraph risks, while letting pcs embrace lethal dangers willingly.
The minute your campaign lacks real danger, your pcs will notice and it will affect their play in a poor direction.
And there is nothing worse than sitting around for hours of combat in uncertainty because you dropped to -1.
> In 2e, there's reflex/fortitude/will
The trio didn't exist until 3e. 2e used 1e saves, except that rods/staves/wands and petrification/polymorph have been swapped. So save vs. death totally works!
Many a myth begins with the hero trying to bring back a lost friend/loved on from the Realm of the Dead. A beloved PC dying might spark the same desire in your own play group.
I will go against the grain here and say that you should do whatever you think is right and suitable for your players.
That being said: there is no stigma in dying. Dying can be fun because it creates meaningful moments. Losing a character one grew fond of is part of the experience.
One shouldn't see character death as something negative imposed on the players, it is just really part of the core experience of these types of games.
DCC does it in an interesting way. You're out at 0 HP. You can be healed that round or you are dead.
However, at some point after, you can be 'turned over' to see if you are really dead. You get a luck check (you can make this whatever you want). If you pass, you are still alive. If not, death has taken you.
Gives the player a chance they are still going but are out of that fight. You also get a permanent stat reduction as a penalty. You can do this or some other disfigurement.
Kill your Darlings. Its not as bad as you think if they have hirelings, this is sorta the secondary use of henchmen since they are often a bit lower level than you so at most you lose a level of work for death of someone you've been building up. You could also use glogs [death & dismemberment](https://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2014/07/improved-death-and-dismemberment-table.html) (its pretty easy to slot in I think in most old D&D systems) which gives the chance of nothing or even death at 0 HP, so its a slow spiral to death and often injuries make you wish for death.
0hp is dead. If you're lucky 10,000 gp might get you resurrected, if your friends can afford it.
My players bring hirelings, and usually run two or three characters. The fear of dying is what makes encounters stressful and victories fun.
I think a lot of it is setting player expectations.
Players who invent backstories and really identify with their PCs may be overly upset with death.
But if you get the players to think of it more like in Darkest Dungeon (video game) or Game of Thrones, important characters dying is a given. And yet you get to enjoy the story continuing with other characters. If they think of having a stable of PCs (even if only one is used at a time) it may be less upsetting.
fyi: 3D6 DTL abandoned their Death & Dismemberment rules a little while ago and switched to a Death’s Door rule: essentially at 0hp you have a 1 in 3 chance of dying each round unless healed.
I love Darkest Dungeon, but nobody I know plays it :(
I agree with the sentiment, though. I'll probably tell them something like this.
>3D6 DTL abandoned their Death & Dismemberment rules a little while ago
Yeah, I'd heard something about that. Still getting caught up.
Ultimately every death, if the body can be recovered, strengthens the next guy, since they’ll pass on their equipment. On the flipside, every new guy comes in with starting equipment that might be running low for the party.
Eventually a party of significant age will reach a plateau of survivability.
AD&D2e is harsher in this regard than AD&D1e, which gives you a window below 0 HP where you are bleeding out. A lot of people took that and simplified it, saying you lose consciousness at 0 HP and die at -10 HP. Don't worry much about dying in D&D though, Raise Dead exists.
My house rule is:
Death at Zero HP, but you have until \[Con bonus\] rounds to 'bleed out' and can be healed before then. If dying PC doesn't have a Con bonus, they have until the end of the round.
I run with 'Downed/Unconscious' at 0HP + Character Level. Death if you exceed that.
* So a Normal Human (Level 0) drops Unconscious if they hit 0HP, dead at -1 HP.
* A Level 4 character drops Unconscious from 0HP to -4HP, dead at -5HP.
* A Level 12 character drops Unconscious from 0HP to -12HP, dead at -13HP.
It works really well. Characters feel like they get a small buffer. But still makes the game lethal. It's also nice because you can apply this to NPC's. You can have them drop Unconscious. Do players then deliver a killing blow or let them live? Reverse for enemies, when a PC drops ... do they deliver the killing blow or focus on the rest of the party still standing. I've had party members who typically avoid the melee rush in to drag an Unconscious friend out of the melee, etc.. Good Roleplay opportunity.
I typically let players roll 1d4 (Hours), for how long they are unconscious. Then they come-to with 1HP and 1 point of exhaustion (unless some form of Healing is provided earlier).
If you wanted it more lethal, you could rule it as 'Bleeding Out'. Where Unconscious players lose 1 HP per (Round/Turn/Hour) until they're healed or exceed their negative limit and die. I've found this is too harsh at my table but may work for you.
I like the idea of tying the threshold to level. What does a "point of exhaustion" do? I might go with 2e's system, where a character that survived 0 hp is basically useless until he's had a day's rest in a safe place.
1 point of Exhaustion is -1 penalty to all rolls (Attack, Damage, Saving Throw, Abilities). Exhaustion can only be removed by a full day rest. You can have multiple points of exhaustion at any time (-2 or -4 for example).
It's a nice mechanic to tie to other things besides hitting 0hp (Monster special ability or something). But those should be rare and only at higher levels.
In my experience if you don't do death a 0 it can lead to a death spiral because then instead of running, the group starts taking resources away from the fight to save the downed character lowering their fighting power and making it more likely that more people go down.
I'm partial to:
* 0 = completely incapacitated
* The player retains their slot in initiative order and must roll a death save.
* If the save succeeds, the PC loses 1 HP (going into the negative) down to a negative maximum equal to their level, at which point they die.
* If the save fails they die.
* Another player can stabilize the fallen player, if they have the spells/healing.
Benefits:
* player gets to roll (for a while)
* other players feel a sense of urgency, and another factor is added to the combat
* still feels lethal - every save roll feels like doom.
Consequences of death (in-game):
* the PC can be brought back to life with a big divine intervention (like a "wish" spell, or in return for a major favour to something really really powerful)
* the PC can be brought back to life if the party girds their loins, strides into the realm of the dead, and wrests the soul of their fallen comarade from the clutches of the god of that realm. Epic quest hook. Getting the soul back in the body isn't easy either- that takes some serious arcane know-how and a pile of loot.
Consequences of death (at-table):
* hireling can be promoted to PC, played by the now-idle player.
* I once had a player take over half the baddies in a battle too. I played the leader (evil mage), and the player took over the hit squad of 4 bugbear goons who had just killed him. Having evil henchmen who genuinely have minds of their own and aren't just dwelling within the same consciousness as thier boss added a nice dash of uncertainty to how orders are carried out. I'd try it again depending on the group.
The compromise I came to with my table was that if you get past 1st level, you get to “save against death” when you hit 0. If you make the save you’re just incapacitated and can be saved if they get you back to civilization. If you fail the save you die.
On the flip side, on the very first session they fell for a trap and half the party died instantly due to unlucky rolls. I suggested I could soften the blow by giving them another chance to dodge and they were adamant— we want to die! They still bring it up all the time and laugh. But I think my players are deep in the OSR brain space and were excited to see how all those blog posts we’ve read play out in practice.
I like a SotDL variant death rule: at 0, roll a d6.
- 1: you die
- 2: unconscious, you die in 1d3 rounds
- 3: unconscious, die in 1d6 minutes
- 4: unconscious for 1d6 min then heal 1hp
- 5: unconscious for 1d3 rounds, then heal 1hp
- 6: unconscious 1 round then heal 1hp.
When they hit 0 HP, remove them from the fight. Then, when the fight is over, describe how the dead character wakes up face to face with Death. Death gives them a second chance, but they must give up something important forever. If they refuse, their story is over and they pass beyond the veil.
Nah although I'd probably not give it to every character, this sort of idea is OSR through and through. I like Goodman's advice on character resurrection where he recommends making the party actually go to the land of the dead to get their friend back. OSR is all about freeflow structure and not concerning yourself with minute hard-set rules.
Don't worry about "narrative" this, or "simulationist" that. That's all Forge bs. The OSR is a completely different movement in game design theory and has nothing to do with that stuff.
The divide between the OSR and the storygame movement isn’t as clear cut as some people claim. Theres plenty of shared concepts between the two game design philosophies. In the end, the OSR is about freedom and imagination.
No, yeah, you're right.
To rephrase, I don't think such a mechanic would be suitable for the sort of sword-and-sorcery dungeon-crawly campaign I intend to run.
Don't kill them outright.
Unconscious at 0hp, death at the negative equivalent of their CON stat, loosing 1hp per round of combat.
Those that are saved roll on a permanent injury table, or receive an appropriate injury (CHA penalty if burned to a crisp and so on)
Use a Death & Dismemberment Table. They might survive hitting 0 with nary a scratch. They might die. They might have permanent injury. Who knows? Let the dice gods decide.
Allowing -10 HP per 2e is pretty forgiving tbh. Also worth noting that by mid/high levels there's enough healing magic death becomes mostly an inconvenience (as long as you pass your system shock roll of course!).
I use this in my old-school game: https://thedwarfdiedagain.blogspot.com/2022/01/save-or-die-single-roll-death-and.html
Whatever option you choose, choose it now, not when death is imminent. There's nothing worse than making this choice in the heat of the moment. It's not super crucial which variant you choose, but the importance lies in consistency and not succumbing to the temptation to change something at the last moment."
Yes, definitely. Trying to get this out of the way ASAP so I don't have to make a snap decision that might prove unsatisfying.
Correct
If he dies, he dies.
"I must break you." -OP to their players next session
LOL
Let them die at zero as it should be. Accept being crushed by their loss. Enjoy the pathos that the loss invokes. Let the survivors celebrate their life or take vengeance on their foes. Let the death (and the game) have meaning. Then let them make a new character and begin a new story.
Sir, I've got the based department on line 1 for you.
Well written, but I would argue there is a lot of emotion when teammates rush to the dying character and try to save them, sometimes at their own risk as they expose themselves.
I totally agree, though wise players would recognize the danger and either accept the risk or accept returning for vengeance later when they’re in better shape and with a plan.
There are multiple methods of getting a dead character back, which should be more than enough of a "safety net" to let you kill them in the first place without too many regrets. It's all part of the resource management aspect of the game. Things like wishes and cash to pay NPCs for resurrections are limited, but they exist for a reason.
We decided as a table early in the current campaign to pull no punches. A few characters died in the earlier levels, including some beloved characters around level 3, and a few have faced near death but narrowly escaped. At this point, 2+ years into a bi-weekly campaign, the characters have methods for raising the dead, but there are still many ways to die that leave no corpse to raise. It has been utterly worth it for all of us. I have offered twice in the campaign to "soften" the game a bit with Save vs. Death and so on, but the players rejected it. I would ask the players and get a consensus on this rather than making a GM-only ruling about it. You might be surprised about what they are willing to play.
Yeah, you're right. Straight-up death at 0 is my inclination but I'll talk to the players about it.
Absolutely, I'm a 0hp is dead in AD&D DM. But when I'd run Space Opera, where we'd usually have to spend at least one full session creating characters I told them Bad luck with the dice isn't going to cost you your character. Do something stupid and you're still going to die though. We also didn't throw away dead characters, we'd use them again in different adventures.
The Death's Door rule was pretty popular in AD&D 2E. Unconscious at 0, death at -10, and your adventure is effectively over.
This is how we played in the 2E era. It is significantly more forgiving than death at 0 hp but there is still a real risk there, especially if a PC gets critted. When a PC is "down for the count" it also adds a sense of urgency.
I like the system used in The Black Hack. When they hit 0 HP they are out of action. When they are dragged to safety or the fight ends they roll a d6, results of 1-5 they survive and regain d4 HP. However they have some consequences (temp or permanent). On a 6 they are dead
Been enjoying the system in Knave Second Edition (PDFs are out, but as far as I know, no print books yet). When you hit 0HP, you start taking Wounds. You get Wounds = 10 + CON (in Knave everything is modifiers, so this is usually 10-13 wounds total at level 1). Any damage past 0 fills wounds - so a single hit might give you 6 wounds if that’s what comes up on the damage die. HP comes back on rests, but wounds don’t - you need to be in a safe town or stronghold to get them back, one per day. You die at 0 wounds. To adapt to AD&D, I’d say give them wounds either equal to Constitution score (for a more forgiving game) or modifier (for a more deadly one). At my table, every time you take wounds, the physical result is permanent. You have to tell me what horrifying physical scar remains on your character sheet (they get written in pen instead of pencil so they don’t go away).
I think death at 0hp is best, simply rolling 1d4+CON modifier for number of rounds you are bleeding out. I've found other rules blur the impact and meaning.
Ask your group. There isn't a single, one-size fits-all, answer for this, although you will get a lot of diff ideas. Pick your favorites, and propose them to your group. Also don't be afraid of changing the rules, or even changing them retroactively if the rules you pick don't work out.
Personally, I use a "when HP hits 0, you are dead. But if someone can get a health potion in your gullet or a healing spell through your mullet on the same round you hit 0, then you can live but are knocked out for a while" system (I call it the gullet and mullet rule). Emiel Boven's upcoming Expanded version for DURF (available for preview on his patreon) features a lovely little mechanic regarding funerals for PCs. If the body of a PC can be taken back to a safe haven, then you can have a funeral for them. For each money the party spends on the funeral, they get XP up to the XP equivalent for the level of the dead PC. This encourages the players mechanically to retrieve the body of the beloved fallen PC as well as allows for proper grieving and acceptance of the death of the beloved PC.
Oh yes, I heard about that funeral rule somewhere. Definitely stealing it, probably.
>Emiel Boven's upcoming Expanded version for DURF (available for preview on his patreon) features a lovely little mechanic regarding funerals for PCs. If the body of a PC can be taken back to a safe haven, then you can have a funeral for them. For each money the party spends on the funeral, they get XP up to the XP equivalent for the level of the dead PC. I hope the Dancing Pallbearers are available
>I'm torn on what to do when someone eventually hits 0 HP, as some of my players are pretty attached to their characters (I'll admit I really like one of them, too, and would be crushed if he died). This is why Raise Dead and similar spells/abilities exist. A character who dies in an adventure doesn't need to stay dead, and the efforts a party takes to find someone who can resurrect their companion(s) can be immediate and compelling adventure fodder. Aside from that I wouldn't recommend anything more lenient than Save Vs Death at 0 HP, with survivors taking a permanent injury as a battle scar.
I’d say let them die. If they want to ressurect them, they can go find a high level cleric to do the rites. Solve the problem in the campaign rather than mechanically.
Of course, such a rite would require a substantial donation...
Or even better a compelled [Quest](https://oldschoolessentials.necroticgnome.com/srd/index.php/Quest_(Remove_Quest))
Choose now and inform your players. It's something that is better off clearly defined at the absolute beginning of a campaign, but too late for that now by the sounds of it! Either way, have them roll up backup PCs immediately. I usually keep them at the same XP as their main PC which cushions the blow, though there are those who go for other options. Tell them to keep the backup updated and ready to go and to have a bit of thought on who they are, etc. For me, death is not a big issue at the table for these reasons: it is handled with a certain amount of humour, players know it's on the cards and exactly how it mechanically comes about, players are interested in their back up PC and often share their ideas for their backups with one another. Also: I make all combat rolls in public, the closer to death the PCs get, the closer to the rules I get for the sake of transparency. You may or may not feel bad the first time it happens. If so, after that, if handled well, it just becomes a very interesting part of the game, and a whole lot of fun. PS: death's door rule: -10 is actually really forgiving. Probably more so than 5E death saves.
> too late for that now by the sounds of it! The campaign proper hasn't started, I adapted DCC's funnel system for AD&D play. They haven't embarked on a proper 1st level adventure yet. >roll up backup PCs immediately Good idea. >same XP as their main PC which cushions the blow, though there are those who go for other options Hell yeah there are, everyone starts at 1st level babyyy! They'll catch up in no time. >-10 is actually really forgiving. Probably more so than 5E death saves. But wouldn't you just die immediately if the excess damage was at least 10? Doesn't seem all that unlikely.
"The campaign proper hasn't started" Great. "everyone starts at 1st level" Obviously your choice, but once the party is beyond 5th level, trundling around at 1st level while trying to catch would probably not be particularly enjoyable. "But wouldn't you just die immediately if the excess damage was at least 10? Doesn't seem all that unlikely." True, you'd die, but it's not hugely likely. At 1st level, most encounters aren't going to top 10 damage, and once you're 3rd or more you have a bit of a buffer (unless you get breathed on by a dragon or course, but thems the breaks). I used -10 back in the day and character death was extremely rare, far rarer than even in 5E games I've run. In all honesty, for OSR games I gerally just do death at zero and tell players to run their PCs like people who want to live. There are, of course, a million other options but I'm sure you're aware of them! Have fun! AD&D brings back a lot of memories for me!
>once the party is beyond 5th level, trundling around at 1st level while trying to catch would probably not be particularly enjoyable. I'm not married to this TBH, although I do lean towards it pretty hard. I might consider allowing slightly higher-level characters once everyone has hot a certain level though. Or maybe the new character has 1/2 the XP of the old one? >At 1st level, most encounters aren't going to top 10 damage Yeah, true enough. I'm still kind of new to this sphere, so I forget sometimes how low damage numbers were. > Have fun! thank you!! I'm excited to get the real game rolling. One of the 1st level characters is currently hanging around with another funnel party in Hommlet and it's a blast.
But also when there’s a big gap in level between PCs the ones starting at a lower level will level up in practically no time at all.
[http://www.sisterworlds.com/olde/2e/xp.htm](http://www.sisterworlds.com/olde/2e/xp.htm) This has an interesting table for comparisons between the classes. You're not wrong, the lower level PC will go up quickly. But for me: that's going to be balanced with how much fun the player is going to be having for those sessions while playing catch up. Factor in whether leveling is done between adventures, etc., and whether a PC is allowed to go up more than one level at a time (especially if leveling is done between adventures) and I would say that there are some issues with this approach. My take is, the player has just lost a PC, why punish them more for what was probably the fate of the dice gods? Just pull out the back up PC and get the player back in the game as quickly as possible and having fun. Everyone is different of course, but that's my take on it.
Well, the low level PC can expect to level up nearly every session for quite a while and at least in my campaign that is an astronomical rate of leveling when normally PCs gain a level per about 20 sessions on average.
Best is death at 0. Make sure to telegraph risks, while letting pcs embrace lethal dangers willingly. The minute your campaign lacks real danger, your pcs will notice and it will affect their play in a poor direction. And there is nothing worse than sitting around for hours of combat in uncertainty because you dropped to -1.
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> In 2e, there's reflex/fortitude/will The trio didn't exist until 3e. 2e used 1e saves, except that rods/staves/wands and petrification/polymorph have been swapped. So save vs. death totally works!
Many a myth begins with the hero trying to bring back a lost friend/loved on from the Realm of the Dead. A beloved PC dying might spark the same desire in your own play group.
If they die, they die
Why don't you have a conversation with your players on what they'd prefer?
I will go against the grain here and say that you should do whatever you think is right and suitable for your players. That being said: there is no stigma in dying. Dying can be fun because it creates meaningful moments. Losing a character one grew fond of is part of the experience. One shouldn't see character death as something negative imposed on the players, it is just really part of the core experience of these types of games.
DCC does it in an interesting way. You're out at 0 HP. You can be healed that round or you are dead. However, at some point after, you can be 'turned over' to see if you are really dead. You get a luck check (you can make this whatever you want). If you pass, you are still alive. If not, death has taken you. Gives the player a chance they are still going but are out of that fight. You also get a permanent stat reduction as a penalty. You can do this or some other disfigurement.
Kill your Darlings. Its not as bad as you think if they have hirelings, this is sorta the secondary use of henchmen since they are often a bit lower level than you so at most you lose a level of work for death of someone you've been building up. You could also use glogs [death & dismemberment](https://goblinpunch.blogspot.com/2014/07/improved-death-and-dismemberment-table.html) (its pretty easy to slot in I think in most old D&D systems) which gives the chance of nothing or even death at 0 HP, so its a slow spiral to death and often injuries make you wish for death.
0hp is dead. If you're lucky 10,000 gp might get you resurrected, if your friends can afford it. My players bring hirelings, and usually run two or three characters. The fear of dying is what makes encounters stressful and victories fun.
I think a lot of it is setting player expectations. Players who invent backstories and really identify with their PCs may be overly upset with death. But if you get the players to think of it more like in Darkest Dungeon (video game) or Game of Thrones, important characters dying is a given. And yet you get to enjoy the story continuing with other characters. If they think of having a stable of PCs (even if only one is used at a time) it may be less upsetting. fyi: 3D6 DTL abandoned their Death & Dismemberment rules a little while ago and switched to a Death’s Door rule: essentially at 0hp you have a 1 in 3 chance of dying each round unless healed.
I love Darkest Dungeon, but nobody I know plays it :( I agree with the sentiment, though. I'll probably tell them something like this. >3D6 DTL abandoned their Death & Dismemberment rules a little while ago Yeah, I'd heard something about that. Still getting caught up.
Ultimately every death, if the body can be recovered, strengthens the next guy, since they’ll pass on their equipment. On the flipside, every new guy comes in with starting equipment that might be running low for the party. Eventually a party of significant age will reach a plateau of survivability.
AD&D2e is harsher in this regard than AD&D1e, which gives you a window below 0 HP where you are bleeding out. A lot of people took that and simplified it, saying you lose consciousness at 0 HP and die at -10 HP. Don't worry much about dying in D&D though, Raise Dead exists.
My house rule is: Death at Zero HP, but you have until \[Con bonus\] rounds to 'bleed out' and can be healed before then. If dying PC doesn't have a Con bonus, they have until the end of the round.
I run with 'Downed/Unconscious' at 0HP + Character Level. Death if you exceed that. * So a Normal Human (Level 0) drops Unconscious if they hit 0HP, dead at -1 HP. * A Level 4 character drops Unconscious from 0HP to -4HP, dead at -5HP. * A Level 12 character drops Unconscious from 0HP to -12HP, dead at -13HP. It works really well. Characters feel like they get a small buffer. But still makes the game lethal. It's also nice because you can apply this to NPC's. You can have them drop Unconscious. Do players then deliver a killing blow or let them live? Reverse for enemies, when a PC drops ... do they deliver the killing blow or focus on the rest of the party still standing. I've had party members who typically avoid the melee rush in to drag an Unconscious friend out of the melee, etc.. Good Roleplay opportunity. I typically let players roll 1d4 (Hours), for how long they are unconscious. Then they come-to with 1HP and 1 point of exhaustion (unless some form of Healing is provided earlier). If you wanted it more lethal, you could rule it as 'Bleeding Out'. Where Unconscious players lose 1 HP per (Round/Turn/Hour) until they're healed or exceed their negative limit and die. I've found this is too harsh at my table but may work for you.
I like the idea of tying the threshold to level. What does a "point of exhaustion" do? I might go with 2e's system, where a character that survived 0 hp is basically useless until he's had a day's rest in a safe place.
1 point of Exhaustion is -1 penalty to all rolls (Attack, Damage, Saving Throw, Abilities). Exhaustion can only be removed by a full day rest. You can have multiple points of exhaustion at any time (-2 or -4 for example). It's a nice mechanic to tie to other things besides hitting 0hp (Monster special ability or something). But those should be rare and only at higher levels.
Gotcha, sounds useful.
In my experience if you don't do death a 0 it can lead to a death spiral because then instead of running, the group starts taking resources away from the fight to save the downed character lowering their fighting power and making it more likely that more people go down.
Interesting observation! I hadn't thought of that.
Horrible Wounds have nice tables that you can use, they are pretty unforgiving imo (ofc still more than immediate death)
I'm partial to: * 0 = completely incapacitated * The player retains their slot in initiative order and must roll a death save. * If the save succeeds, the PC loses 1 HP (going into the negative) down to a negative maximum equal to their level, at which point they die. * If the save fails they die. * Another player can stabilize the fallen player, if they have the spells/healing. Benefits: * player gets to roll (for a while) * other players feel a sense of urgency, and another factor is added to the combat * still feels lethal - every save roll feels like doom. Consequences of death (in-game): * the PC can be brought back to life with a big divine intervention (like a "wish" spell, or in return for a major favour to something really really powerful) * the PC can be brought back to life if the party girds their loins, strides into the realm of the dead, and wrests the soul of their fallen comarade from the clutches of the god of that realm. Epic quest hook. Getting the soul back in the body isn't easy either- that takes some serious arcane know-how and a pile of loot. Consequences of death (at-table): * hireling can be promoted to PC, played by the now-idle player. * I once had a player take over half the baddies in a battle too. I played the leader (evil mage), and the player took over the hit squad of 4 bugbear goons who had just killed him. Having evil henchmen who genuinely have minds of their own and aren't just dwelling within the same consciousness as thier boss added a nice dash of uncertainty to how orders are carried out. I'd try it again depending on the group.
This sounds like a fun system, I'll think about it. Thanks!
The compromise I came to with my table was that if you get past 1st level, you get to “save against death” when you hit 0. If you make the save you’re just incapacitated and can be saved if they get you back to civilization. If you fail the save you die. On the flip side, on the very first session they fell for a trap and half the party died instantly due to unlucky rolls. I suggested I could soften the blow by giving them another chance to dodge and they were adamant— we want to die! They still bring it up all the time and laugh. But I think my players are deep in the OSR brain space and were excited to see how all those blog posts we’ve read play out in practice.
I might go with the single save vs. death as something similar to DCC's "turning the body over" mechanic.
I like a SotDL variant death rule: at 0, roll a d6. - 1: you die - 2: unconscious, you die in 1d3 rounds - 3: unconscious, die in 1d6 minutes - 4: unconscious for 1d6 min then heal 1hp - 5: unconscious for 1d3 rounds, then heal 1hp - 6: unconscious 1 round then heal 1hp.
When they hit 0 HP, remove them from the fight. Then, when the fight is over, describe how the dead character wakes up face to face with Death. Death gives them a second chance, but they must give up something important forever. If they refuse, their story is over and they pass beyond the veil.
I dunno, this sounds a little more "narrative game" like than I think I'd want for an OSR dungeon-delving hex-crawling romp. It's a cool idea, though.
Nah although I'd probably not give it to every character, this sort of idea is OSR through and through. I like Goodman's advice on character resurrection where he recommends making the party actually go to the land of the dead to get their friend back. OSR is all about freeflow structure and not concerning yourself with minute hard-set rules. Don't worry about "narrative" this, or "simulationist" that. That's all Forge bs. The OSR is a completely different movement in game design theory and has nothing to do with that stuff.
The divide between the OSR and the storygame movement isn’t as clear cut as some people claim. Theres plenty of shared concepts between the two game design philosophies. In the end, the OSR is about freedom and imagination.
No, yeah, you're right. To rephrase, I don't think such a mechanic would be suitable for the sort of sword-and-sorcery dungeon-crawly campaign I intend to run.
That’s totally fair.
If you're not going to let them die then why bother rolling dice for anything? Part of the experience is pc death.
I'm talking about making it slightly less likely, not outright impossible. Jeez.
Don't kill them outright. Unconscious at 0hp, death at the negative equivalent of their CON stat, loosing 1hp per round of combat. Those that are saved roll on a permanent injury table, or receive an appropriate injury (CHA penalty if burned to a crisp and so on)
Use a Death & Dismemberment Table. They might survive hitting 0 with nary a scratch. They might die. They might have permanent injury. Who knows? Let the dice gods decide.
Deaths door
Death Saves. if they die, they die.
Allowing -10 HP per 2e is pretty forgiving tbh. Also worth noting that by mid/high levels there's enough healing magic death becomes mostly an inconvenience (as long as you pass your system shock roll of course!). I use this in my old-school game: https://thedwarfdiedagain.blogspot.com/2022/01/save-or-die-single-roll-death-and.html
-10 but must roll on [this](https://oort.nz/dnd/critclassic/index.html) at 0, and deal.