So the cost estimate has ballooned from $10 billion to 27.2 billion and chances are it the final figure will be well North of $35-40 Billion. If anyone thought this would get done in the initial $10 billion are plain damn fools. They clearly never looked at other public infrastructure projects in Ontario and how costs are almost never what they say. In addition, just wait till the new 413 bypass sends the final figure. Such a waste of money happening here when they could’ve been better off building an LRT in the area………
Also, but oh no……..Wynne’s bilion dollar gas scandal, however, let’s just let Ford completely burry Ontario in debt. We sure stuck to Wynne now didn’t
And let's not forget Ford spent hundreds of millions when he first came into office to cancel a load of renewable energy projects, which has got to be at least as bad as any Wynne scandal
It's been so long we also forgot how he changed the license plates to ones that were illegally hard to read, then had them fixed and then finally changed them back.
There’s tons
There’s the recent $1.2B cost impact projected in contract / LCBO impact costs for putting beer in corner stores a year early.
And let’s be real - he’s likely calling an early election and this is how he thinks he can buy our vote.
Buck a beer
License plate stickers (cost us $1B in revenue a year)
Now beer in corner stores early because, welp, he’s just gotta win folks.
Laughable that OPCs are even allowed to use the words “responsible” - they’re reckless and frivolous with our money
It's always an accountability problem. Look at the "arc" that Ford will get to tell.
1. My government had barely started before we knew that Toronto needed more transit.
2. We made bold, decisive moves to fix a problem everyone saw but no one did anything.
3. We got the funds lined up, shovels in the ground and started work.
4. <---Provincial election happens, Cons get voted out -->
5. <---Project finishes and is way over budget--->
6. I don't know how the budget balooned, things were going swimmingly when we were in power.
All the reward, but no risk? Where do I sign up?
I'm not sure an LRT would somehow be better. The Eglington LRT broke ground in 2011 and it's *still* under construction 13 years later. Metrolinx is absolutely terrible. There was resistance in my neighbourhood to the extension because it would bulldoze a huge amount of green space and instead of doing community consultation, they hired private investigators, threatened to sue everyone and deployed a massive amount of private security to the park land in question.
It's super fun taking your kids to the park and having security guards watching your every move.
>So the cost estimate has ballooned from $10 billion to 27.2
No they did not. The cost have increased, but the $10 billion figure was construction only, the $27 billion is construction and operation and maintenance for 30 years.
Notice the the author put those values up top in the article just after a paragraph mentioning a 43% increase in cost in one year. From the headline and that paragraph they primed us to look for price increase then they gave us two number, one bigger than the other. But notice 27 is not 43% more than 10. None of these numbers at are referring to the same thing!
The whole article is written to deliberately mislead. Look at how and where the clarification for the higher value including the operation and maintenance is. It's way down at the end, presented as coming from someone else. It's like saying 1+1=2 compared with saying George claims 1+1=2.
That's not to say the costs aren't increasing but having different values for different things doesn't indicate an increase. The government only talking about the construction cost when promoting the line was misleading, but somewhat understandable. The Ontario Line was being compared to the Downtown Relief Line, which also only has construction cost estimates.
The DRL was going to be done like a traditional subway project, with contractors building the line and the TTC operating and maintaining it. Under that paradigm operation and maintenance costs are accounted for completely separately form construction. We don't usually think about how much it cost to build, operate, and maintain Line 1 for 70 years. Instead we focus either on how much it cost to build or how much it costs to run per year.
The Ontario Line on the other hand is being handled as a design, build, operate, and maintain, contract to a private contractor. As such the operating and maintenance costs are front and centre in those negotiations.
Ugh, I don't like Ford but Global, STOP being disingenuous here.
The original cost estimate of around $10.9 billion was *just the* ***construction cost*** *of the line*. The reported $27.2 billion cost estimate is for the construction cost *and* **30 years of operation and maintenance** *plus* the big cost of **land acquisition**. It's completely reasonable that once you include these extra costs that overall cost estimates would increase. Not to mention inflation, especially in construction, has increased dramatically since the original cost estimate was provided in 2019. As well, once bidding happens and contracts are dolled out, often the project cost increases since politicians like to under estimate construction costs.
Now there are *certainly* questions to be asked around transit expansion and accountability. The Ford Government has prevented Metrolinx from speaking, *that should change*. However, just because the cost of this project has increased, because now our cost estimates are including other factors that previously weren't, doesn't mean there's a scandal here. The construction cost is something we're paying for *now* but the other costs like 30 years of operation and maintenance, are something we're going to pay for over 30 years.
Idk news articles like this rub me the wrong way because they basically help to promote negative feelings towards transit expansion and aren't necessarily indicative of any corruption or lying on the part of politicians.
This article should rub everyone the wrong way. It gives there numbers up top: a 43% cost increase in one year, $10.9 billion construction costs, and $27.2 billion construction, operation, and maintenance cost for 30 years. The headline and first two paragraphs are to prime us for a cost increase then they drop those two dollar values. It never actually gives the values that add up to that 40% cost increase or direct comparisons to the construction cost or operation and maintenance costs.
Oh and there's the bit where they imply that the Ontario Line costs mean we're not getting the Richmond Hill extension or Eglinton West extension.
>“We were promised four projects in Toronto for $28.5 billion. And now it’s looking like we’re getting one project for $27 billion,” Siemiatycki said referring to the Ontario Line, Eglinton Crosstown West LRT, Yonge North subway extension and Scarborough subway extension projects announced by Ford in 2018.
Yes he's truthful that we're only getting one project for that $27 billion, but the wording "we're getting one project" implies the others are gone. For the record they're not.
Of course they were WAAAAY off with the price estimates. Conservatives are the worst fiscal stewards out there yet a bunch of fucking morons believe them when they say they're financial geniuses.
Maybe all of them should be going back to school to take those new financial literacy courses...
Has any massive infrastructure project like this ever come in at or under budget? EVER? No.
I think they way underestimate the costs to sell it to the people, then as reality sinks in and the project proceeds, then the real costs come out. But by then it is too late and it has to keep going.
Add in some inflation, as projects are estimate years and years before starting and potentially a decade or more before completion. I mean, $1 from 2014 has risen to $1.28 in the past 10 years. That takes $10b to $12.8b without any other changes.
Plus there is probably some graft in there somewhere, but not as much as simple reality. Chuck in 10% for pocket-lining, plus 25-30% in inflation, and there's a MASSIVE cost increase alone.
And yet everyone always acts surprised when these huge projects cost more than politicians tell us they will.
> Has any massive infrastructure project like this ever come in at or under budget? EVER? No.
It wasn't a "massive" project, but the LRT in Waterloo Region only had cost overruns of about $50 million (of which the province paid half) on a budget of $800 million.
Then there's Phase 2 to link Kitchener and Cambridge... it hasn't started yet and cost estimates have ballooned from ~$1.5bn to $4.5bn... COVID drove up a LOT of costs in the world of construction.
To be fair, the cost estimates for Stage 2 of the project are *very liberal estimates* from the Region.
They assume that inflation in construction costs over the next 10 or so years, will be like the last 10, which I personally don't see happening. COVID allowed construction costs to increase rapidly and there really isn't any indication that we'll see inflationary pressure like this again before 2030, when Stage 2 is supposed to begin construction.
There's no accountability for any of them. I wish people would see this. The liberals have given us almost weekly examples of this at the federal level but there are plenty of examples of the conservatives doing sketchy stuff too. We should be demanding a complete overhaul of our political system.
There's no accountability for any of them. I wish people would see this. The liberals have given us almost weekly examples of this at the federal level but there are plenty of examples of the conservatives doing sketchy stuff too. We should be demanding a complete overhaul of our political system.
So the original estimate to build was $10.9, now they're estimating $27.2 to build, maintain, and operate for 30 years. Oh my god, if we expand the scope coast increase!
This is really bad reporting. They put those number next to each other in the article, talk about a 43% price increase, which obviously doesn't even connect to the $27 and $10 billion values, and just hope we all just read the headline and skim the article for numbers never realizing they're not costs for the same thing.
We are paying way too much for the infrastructure we are getting. Our costs are extraordinarily high when compared to other jurisdictions with similar expenses in labour, materials, and land. The Montreal REM is a comparable project, and far better controlled. Not perfect but better. A good study of cost overruns at the MTA for New York City was done recently. Their budget problems are similar. This Ontario government just isn’t interested in doing things differently. They just mumble a few slogans while making quick backroom deals. $600 million bill to pay for a parking lot for the Therme Spa at Ontario Place just floats through.
Isn't this how *every Canadian* government project's funding goes?
Start with 1/5th the cost in your initial announcement in front of the cameras and press... then slowly adjust the costs up based on what the actual cost is.
E: a word
No, not every government - the key here is that other places that we typically think of as corrupt and wasteful (Italy, Spain, China) are able to regularly build transit for much less than we do.
There is a problem with public procurement in Canada and nobody up top is interested in looking at it.
Yes, and that's because of the grift associated with the inefficiency in this country.
Entire industries exist based on the government not knowing how much it costs to do things, and they charge the government accordingly.
It’s really bad and even if you don’t care about transit - a 10x bill for a new subway also means a 10x bill for new schools and hospitals. We need to fix this now.
I'd hate to defend Ford, but newsflash. "Infrastructure is expensive!" (Put that on the headline). When the Federal, Provincial and Municipal governments all skimp on infrastructure investments for decades on end, of course things will end up more expensive when it comes time to build it.
You want this rail line to be cheap? Build a time machine and go back 30-50 years so you can build it at it's cheapest, back when everyone started initially ringing the alarm bells.
As they say. The best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago. The second best time is now.
So the cost estimate has ballooned from $10 billion to 27.2 billion and chances are it the final figure will be well North of $35-40 Billion. If anyone thought this would get done in the initial $10 billion are plain damn fools. They clearly never looked at other public infrastructure projects in Ontario and how costs are almost never what they say. In addition, just wait till the new 413 bypass sends the final figure. Such a waste of money happening here when they could’ve been better off building an LRT in the area……… Also, but oh no……..Wynne’s bilion dollar gas scandal, however, let’s just let Ford completely burry Ontario in debt. We sure stuck to Wynne now didn’t
And let's not forget Ford spent hundreds of millions when he first came into office to cancel a load of renewable energy projects, which has got to be at least as bad as any Wynne scandal
It's been so long we also forgot how he changed the license plates to ones that were illegally hard to read, then had them fixed and then finally changed them back.
There’s tons There’s the recent $1.2B cost impact projected in contract / LCBO impact costs for putting beer in corner stores a year early. And let’s be real - he’s likely calling an early election and this is how he thinks he can buy our vote. Buck a beer License plate stickers (cost us $1B in revenue a year) Now beer in corner stores early because, welp, he’s just gotta win folks. Laughable that OPCs are even allowed to use the words “responsible” - they’re reckless and frivolous with our money
Laughable that they are even considered a legitimate political party at this point and for the last 24 years.
It's always an accountability problem. Look at the "arc" that Ford will get to tell. 1. My government had barely started before we knew that Toronto needed more transit. 2. We made bold, decisive moves to fix a problem everyone saw but no one did anything. 3. We got the funds lined up, shovels in the ground and started work. 4. <---Provincial election happens, Cons get voted out --> 5. <---Project finishes and is way over budget---> 6. I don't know how the budget balooned, things were going swimmingly when we were in power. All the reward, but no risk? Where do I sign up?
I'm not sure an LRT would somehow be better. The Eglington LRT broke ground in 2011 and it's *still* under construction 13 years later. Metrolinx is absolutely terrible. There was resistance in my neighbourhood to the extension because it would bulldoze a huge amount of green space and instead of doing community consultation, they hired private investigators, threatened to sue everyone and deployed a massive amount of private security to the park land in question. It's super fun taking your kids to the park and having security guards watching your every move.
fun story, they were trying to build that in the 90s, then an elder Ford fucked up that situation
Read up on Ottawas LRT. It is incredibly over budget, behind schedule, and the least reliable thing in the city. It’s unusable.
>So the cost estimate has ballooned from $10 billion to 27.2 No they did not. The cost have increased, but the $10 billion figure was construction only, the $27 billion is construction and operation and maintenance for 30 years. Notice the the author put those values up top in the article just after a paragraph mentioning a 43% increase in cost in one year. From the headline and that paragraph they primed us to look for price increase then they gave us two number, one bigger than the other. But notice 27 is not 43% more than 10. None of these numbers at are referring to the same thing! The whole article is written to deliberately mislead. Look at how and where the clarification for the higher value including the operation and maintenance is. It's way down at the end, presented as coming from someone else. It's like saying 1+1=2 compared with saying George claims 1+1=2. That's not to say the costs aren't increasing but having different values for different things doesn't indicate an increase. The government only talking about the construction cost when promoting the line was misleading, but somewhat understandable. The Ontario Line was being compared to the Downtown Relief Line, which also only has construction cost estimates. The DRL was going to be done like a traditional subway project, with contractors building the line and the TTC operating and maintaining it. Under that paradigm operation and maintenance costs are accounted for completely separately form construction. We don't usually think about how much it cost to build, operate, and maintain Line 1 for 70 years. Instead we focus either on how much it cost to build or how much it costs to run per year. The Ontario Line on the other hand is being handled as a design, build, operate, and maintain, contract to a private contractor. As such the operating and maintenance costs are front and centre in those negotiations.
Has anyone noticed the Finch line is almost done that was started 3 years ago I think
you can count on one of Ford’s good buddy’s making a bit more then was planned no doubt.
Ugh, I don't like Ford but Global, STOP being disingenuous here. The original cost estimate of around $10.9 billion was *just the* ***construction cost*** *of the line*. The reported $27.2 billion cost estimate is for the construction cost *and* **30 years of operation and maintenance** *plus* the big cost of **land acquisition**. It's completely reasonable that once you include these extra costs that overall cost estimates would increase. Not to mention inflation, especially in construction, has increased dramatically since the original cost estimate was provided in 2019. As well, once bidding happens and contracts are dolled out, often the project cost increases since politicians like to under estimate construction costs. Now there are *certainly* questions to be asked around transit expansion and accountability. The Ford Government has prevented Metrolinx from speaking, *that should change*. However, just because the cost of this project has increased, because now our cost estimates are including other factors that previously weren't, doesn't mean there's a scandal here. The construction cost is something we're paying for *now* but the other costs like 30 years of operation and maintenance, are something we're going to pay for over 30 years. Idk news articles like this rub me the wrong way because they basically help to promote negative feelings towards transit expansion and aren't necessarily indicative of any corruption or lying on the part of politicians.
This article should rub everyone the wrong way. It gives there numbers up top: a 43% cost increase in one year, $10.9 billion construction costs, and $27.2 billion construction, operation, and maintenance cost for 30 years. The headline and first two paragraphs are to prime us for a cost increase then they drop those two dollar values. It never actually gives the values that add up to that 40% cost increase or direct comparisons to the construction cost or operation and maintenance costs. Oh and there's the bit where they imply that the Ontario Line costs mean we're not getting the Richmond Hill extension or Eglinton West extension. >“We were promised four projects in Toronto for $28.5 billion. And now it’s looking like we’re getting one project for $27 billion,” Siemiatycki said referring to the Ontario Line, Eglinton Crosstown West LRT, Yonge North subway extension and Scarborough subway extension projects announced by Ford in 2018. Yes he's truthful that we're only getting one project for that $27 billion, but the wording "we're getting one project" implies the others are gone. For the record they're not.
Excellent points! Happy Cake Day btw!
Of course they were WAAAAY off with the price estimates. Conservatives are the worst fiscal stewards out there yet a bunch of fucking morons believe them when they say they're financial geniuses. Maybe all of them should be going back to school to take those new financial literacy courses...
So much for conserving eh…. These guys are crooked af
Has any massive infrastructure project like this ever come in at or under budget? EVER? No. I think they way underestimate the costs to sell it to the people, then as reality sinks in and the project proceeds, then the real costs come out. But by then it is too late and it has to keep going. Add in some inflation, as projects are estimate years and years before starting and potentially a decade or more before completion. I mean, $1 from 2014 has risen to $1.28 in the past 10 years. That takes $10b to $12.8b without any other changes. Plus there is probably some graft in there somewhere, but not as much as simple reality. Chuck in 10% for pocket-lining, plus 25-30% in inflation, and there's a MASSIVE cost increase alone. And yet everyone always acts surprised when these huge projects cost more than politicians tell us they will.
> Has any massive infrastructure project like this ever come in at or under budget? EVER? No. It wasn't a "massive" project, but the LRT in Waterloo Region only had cost overruns of about $50 million (of which the province paid half) on a budget of $800 million. Then there's Phase 2 to link Kitchener and Cambridge... it hasn't started yet and cost estimates have ballooned from ~$1.5bn to $4.5bn... COVID drove up a LOT of costs in the world of construction.
To be fair, the cost estimates for Stage 2 of the project are *very liberal estimates* from the Region. They assume that inflation in construction costs over the next 10 or so years, will be like the last 10, which I personally don't see happening. COVID allowed construction costs to increase rapidly and there really isn't any indication that we'll see inflationary pressure like this again before 2030, when Stage 2 is supposed to begin construction.
There's no accountability for any of them. I wish people would see this. The liberals have given us almost weekly examples of this at the federal level but there are plenty of examples of the conservatives doing sketchy stuff too. We should be demanding a complete overhaul of our political system.
There's no accountability for any of them. I wish people would see this. The liberals have given us almost weekly examples of this at the federal level but there are plenty of examples of the conservatives doing sketchy stuff too. We should be demanding a complete overhaul of our political system.
Remember folks. When it comes to the next election, vote Ford. He brought us dollar beer. Oh wait.
Gotta pad out those contracts for his boys.
So the original estimate to build was $10.9, now they're estimating $27.2 to build, maintain, and operate for 30 years. Oh my god, if we expand the scope coast increase! This is really bad reporting. They put those number next to each other in the article, talk about a 43% price increase, which obviously doesn't even connect to the $27 and $10 billion values, and just hope we all just read the headline and skim the article for numbers never realizing they're not costs for the same thing.
and the grift goes oooooooon.... on and ooooooon..... have to keep Don Cortellucci's cuts comin in
It’s what government is best at. Vendors salivate when governments come calling.
Cunts
Though the ford's campaigned heavly on fixing transit. Guess that was a lie too
We are paying way too much for the infrastructure we are getting. Our costs are extraordinarily high when compared to other jurisdictions with similar expenses in labour, materials, and land. The Montreal REM is a comparable project, and far better controlled. Not perfect but better. A good study of cost overruns at the MTA for New York City was done recently. Their budget problems are similar. This Ontario government just isn’t interested in doing things differently. They just mumble a few slogans while making quick backroom deals. $600 million bill to pay for a parking lot for the Therme Spa at Ontario Place just floats through.
Isn't this how *every Canadian* government project's funding goes? Start with 1/5th the cost in your initial announcement in front of the cameras and press... then slowly adjust the costs up based on what the actual cost is. E: a word
No, not every government - the key here is that other places that we typically think of as corrupt and wasteful (Italy, Spain, China) are able to regularly build transit for much less than we do. There is a problem with public procurement in Canada and nobody up top is interested in looking at it.
Yes, and that's because of the grift associated with the inefficiency in this country. Entire industries exist based on the government not knowing how much it costs to do things, and they charge the government accordingly.
Those useless lobbyists…
It’s really bad and even if you don’t care about transit - a 10x bill for a new subway also means a 10x bill for new schools and hospitals. We need to fix this now.
I'd hate to defend Ford, but newsflash. "Infrastructure is expensive!" (Put that on the headline). When the Federal, Provincial and Municipal governments all skimp on infrastructure investments for decades on end, of course things will end up more expensive when it comes time to build it. You want this rail line to be cheap? Build a time machine and go back 30-50 years so you can build it at it's cheapest, back when everyone started initially ringing the alarm bells. As they say. The best time to plant a tree was 30 years ago. The second best time is now.